How does one write a canon with an accompanying theme? That seems very hard. The leading voice must be written such that it not only makes good counterpoint with the theme at the beginning, but also such that the following voice will make good counterpoint with the leading voice AND the theme, when the follower enters.
And to write such challenging counterpoint to such a highly chromatic theme... what an incredible feat!
@wcbroccoli I don't think the chromaticism is very hard either. I think the difficulties in these canons lie in the fact that the material in the leader has to make good counterpoint with the theme at the leader's entrance, but also at the follower's entrance, at which point the theme is doing other things.
Writing a canon with an accompanying melody is easy if you write the accompanying melody yourself. But Bach didn't write the MO theme.
@b0ttomzone Whether he composed the so-called "royal theme" is irrelevant. It's just a cantus firmus (CF). He can and does alter the note values and rhythms of the CF so that the harmonies will fit the canonic counterpoints. He reduces the problem to composing over a harmonic progression.
@b0ttomzone How? The same way you write any cantus firmus setting. I don't why people think it's hard to write a fugue on a chromatic subject. This was being done long before Bach. The "royal theme" of MO is derived from conventional subjects found in imitative keyboard works going back to the 17th century: (1) the C-Eb-G / B-D-F-Ab harmony already found in many Bach keyboard fugues (2) the conventional lament motive represented by the descending choramtic tetrachord.
@maricahn Este tipo de obra se le llama "canon" y en teoria es mas o menos lo que el jazz es ahora por si lo entiendes asi mejor.. no se mucho de esto pero intentare explicar. Una "voz" (instrumento) se avienta un pedasito y el otras "trata" de copiarlo, pero la "Copia" no legitima, veces esta tonos abajo y tonos arriba, eso yo creo te a de dar la sensacion de que pierde ritmo pero no es asi!! otras veces no son tonos sino ritmos. otras se "invierten en la ejecucion". "GEB de hofstadter" sl2
for me, it doesn´t matter if Savall plays in this piece. The important thing is that this is a beautiful performance, one of the best, or the best that I heard ever. It´s not necessary to say any more, just only let involve by the greatness of Bach and this excellent performance
Thank you Juanmacos for translating it. For me it is the best performance too of the Musical Offering.( I still think dat Jordi Savall is the best gambaplayer I ever heard though.)
Para mi no importa tanto lo de savall, lo que importa es que esta es una interpretación magnífica, de las mejores, si no la mejor que he escuchado de esta obra. No es necesario decir más, sino dejarse llevar por la grandeza de Bach y este estupendo performance
this is perhaps the most unknown piece of Bach, and yet it's purest work, this is Bach inmerse in it's time and yet composing it his own style
rodrigomanzo777 5 months ago
i've only done the first part on my guitar so far, but check it out on my page. it's the featured song. i love this song with a lot of my heart haha
guitardust21 11 months ago 2
Godel, Escher, Bach everyone? :)
Truly an amazing book, an amazing piece; a neverending canon, a neverending pleasure to read and listen.
FantasizingHere 1 year ago 3
How does one write a canon with an accompanying theme? That seems very hard. The leading voice must be written such that it not only makes good counterpoint with the theme at the beginning, but also such that the following voice will make good counterpoint with the leading voice AND the theme, when the follower enters.
And to write such challenging counterpoint to such a highly chromatic theme... what an incredible feat!
b0ttomzone 1 year ago
Comment removed
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@b0ttomzone It's very easy to write imitative counterpoints to scalar passages. It doesn't matter whether the scales are diatonic or chromatic.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli I don't think the chromaticism is very hard either. I think the difficulties in these canons lie in the fact that the material in the leader has to make good counterpoint with the theme at the leader's entrance, but also at the follower's entrance, at which point the theme is doing other things.
Writing a canon with an accompanying melody is easy if you write the accompanying melody yourself. But Bach didn't write the MO theme.
b0ttomzone 1 year ago
@b0ttomzone Whether he composed the so-called "royal theme" is irrelevant. It's just a cantus firmus (CF). He can and does alter the note values and rhythms of the CF so that the harmonies will fit the canonic counterpoints. He reduces the problem to composing over a harmonic progression.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
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@b0ttomzone How? The same way you write any cantus firmus setting. I don't why people think it's hard to write a fugue on a chromatic subject. This was being done long before Bach. The "royal theme" of MO is derived from conventional subjects found in imitative keyboard works going back to the 17th century: (1) the C-Eb-G / B-D-F-Ab harmony already found in many Bach keyboard fugues (2) the conventional lament motive represented by the descending choramtic tetrachord.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
Una interpretación muy mediocre, va perdiendo el ritmo continuamente.
maricahn 1 year ago
@maricahn Este tipo de obra se le llama "canon" y en teoria es mas o menos lo que el jazz es ahora por si lo entiendes asi mejor.. no se mucho de esto pero intentare explicar. Una "voz" (instrumento) se avienta un pedasito y el otras "trata" de copiarlo, pero la "Copia" no legitima, veces esta tonos abajo y tonos arriba, eso yo creo te a de dar la sensacion de que pierde ritmo pero no es asi!! otras veces no son tonos sino ritmos. otras se "invierten en la ejecucion". "GEB de hofstadter" sl2
sidlors 1 year ago
I´ll try to translate to english:
for me, it doesn´t matter if Savall plays in this piece. The important thing is that this is a beautiful performance, one of the best, or the best that I heard ever. It´s not necessary to say any more, just only let involve by the greatness of Bach and this excellent performance
juanmacos 2 years ago 6
Thank you Juanmacos for translating it. For me it is the best performance too of the Musical Offering.( I still think dat Jordi Savall is the best gambaplayer I ever heard though.)
xd02ab 2 years ago
Para mi no importa tanto lo de savall, lo que importa es que esta es una interpretación magnífica, de las mejores, si no la mejor que he escuchado de esta obra. No es necesario decir más, sino dejarse llevar por la grandeza de Bach y este estupendo performance
juanmacos 2 years ago 7
Could somebody translate this for me in English or French?
xd02ab 2 years ago
Jordi Savall,nuestra mayor gloria musical,está mas considerado en el extranjero que en España.Otra vergüenza.
debartzen 3 years ago
- Jordi Savall, our most famous musician, is more well-known abroad, than here in Spain. What a shame.
Same as the French book "Les Miserables". It's more well-known in English than in French.
- Igual que el libro en francés "Les Miserables". Es más conocido en Inglés que francés
JupiterIV 3 years ago
Thanks for posting this outstanding modern performance by Savall and Hantai.
Haesloop 3 years ago
merciii beaucoup!!
jivansegco 3 years ago