@lingosteve Oh I see, in my opinion your points are very interesting as I find SRSs very grueling and hard to keep up with on a daiy basis. you give great advice, cheers.
Hey everybody, I am a polyglot like Steve is and I am fluent in 37 languages and am almost fluent in French. Please check my profile to see what languages I speak first, then if you want any lessons of any of my languages, please reply to this comment mentioning the language you want to learn and me to teach and help you. Thanks.
HAHAHAHA I'm glad that you posted this. I find it interesting that there are other language learners who think this way. I'm exactly the same way. For me, I came to the conclusion if I 'm already spending most of my time spending time in my target language just watching shows and seeing the characters on Television I dont need to spend my time trying to force them into my head. 'You cant Rush Perfection' . So I too RRS just to improve my understanding of the meanings.
"We have to believe in what we are doing". …OK…..I believe that you are an opportunist and a speculator, and you are using video to exploit and take advantage and benefits from people. Also, I believe that you are a nobody, a minion, a retired loser in his hobby, that is what I believe. You know absolutely nothing about language
That being said, spaced repetition if not managed well (with, say, a computer-based system) can potentially be very very boring and this will have a very big negative impact. So far as to say that the benefits of SRS could be outweighed by the drop in attentiveness of the learner. But, if the management of the material and spacing is good and the learner is just as immersed / interested, ths SRS should produce stronger memories. How much stronger compared to random, not sure. No data...
@rsherfan Thanks Roy, and I understand this science. However, it is not obvious to me that encountering a word in a flash card review is as effective as encountering it in a meaningful context, while listening and reading. Furthermore, for the SRS to work based on the algorithm would seem to require that we review these terms regularly if not daily. Since I have over 30,000 saved terms in Russian along, that would be a lot of flash card review. Any comments?
Reinforcing the connection (and let it regress slightly) can increase the probability of it turning into a type II, which is stronger, longer lasting etc. Long story short blah blah blah eventually you go on to a type III which can basically sit in your mind without being "fired" for decades and still be fresh. Much like muscular training, a certain optimum number of "repetitions" can achieve stronger more lasting recollection with the fewest repetitions.
@rsherfan Thanks Roy, and I understand this science. However, it is not obvious to me that encountering a word in a flash card review is as effective as encountering it in a meaningful context, while listening and reading. Furthermore, for the SRS to work based on the algorithm would seem to require that we review these terms regularly if not daily. Since I have over 30,000 saved terms in Russian along, that would be a lot of flash card review. Any comments?
@lingosteve Hi Steve. I think you're correct - a word in context would generate a stronger stimulus within the context of a story. The algorithm will most likely be many times per day exposure but some programs can "compensate" for off time. Basically a specific term *must* be left to "rot" in the brain and then "salvaged". It is crucial that this phenomenon happen for stronger connections to form. Connections constantly "revived" frequently are actually weaker in the long run.
@lingosteve it would be interesting to see if you can work spaced repetition at the transcript level. each transcript has a collection of words that would potentially be unique to itself. By rostering, thus "leaving" these transcripts and then revisiting them later on will force the brain to bolster the connections to these less-frequently used words. It is this "downtime" that is telling the brain "these memories need to be stored with sterner stuff". I think that could be useful at LingQ.
@lingosteve Hey Steve. I agree that encountering a word in a flash card review is probably not as effective as encountering it in a meaningful context, e.g. while listening and reading. I think it is a common, and unfortunate mistake that most SRS flash-card users make where they will make a simple word-definition Q&A flashcard. This CAN work (and HAS worked for me), but it most certainly is far less powerful than doing it "in context" as you described.... (continued...)
@lingosteve (...continued) There have been plenty of times that I have learned a new word, using spaced-repetition, and the word had failed to crop up in my mind at the right moment. Then again, there have been times that it has. Spaced repetition could be made more powerful by introducing the "context" of the word as part of the flashcard system. Random (yet appropriate) usage of learned words most certainly would be far more effective, (continued2...)
@lingosteve (...2continued) but I think only within the framework of spaced-repetition can this "random" contextual element be of maximum effect. As far as having 30,000 saved flash cards, this really is no problem so long as you limit yourself to a realistic amount every day. You can skip days, but it's not as effective as doing it every day.
Now on to SRS. The short summary: The brain has (say) type I, II and III connections that can store facts, events etc. Type I connections can't survive longer than a certain period if it isn't reinforced. Re-firing these connections at certain key times reinforces the connection profoundly. For example, reinforcing a type i connection 100 times in the space of 1 hour will not strengthen the connection much and it will remain as type I.
Hi Steve. Although I have some "science" to demonstrate SRS, I am weary that what works on paper can be different in reality and I do recall how I didn't see how your flashcard system would work because of the way the brain stores memory, but then later I realised (too long to explain here) that your flashcard system would infact work very well. The flash cards make you 'more attentive' which helps comprehension which ultimately helps language learning, like your computers "cache" speeds it up.
Probably I should improve my attitude towards repetition. I think I act way too programatically (each and every day podcast + book + flashcards). Sometimes this stresses me. Maybe I just have to take it easy as you do, Steve.
i disagree with even flashcards, i dont see why so many people put so much effort into memorizing vocab and stuff, sure reviewing words lists and such is ok but you don't need to memorize words or sentences so that you can recall them 100% of the time. the more content you are exposed to and the more times you are forced to recall things, the more ingrained into your mind they will be. The more important things you will be more exposed to and thus naturally memorize imo.
Steve -- good video. Paul Pimsleur did research into this area and was able to establish results showing success with the graduated interval recall and spaced repetition methods. I found the Pimsleur method effective, but repetitious. I started using LingQ recently, as a result of watching your YouTube videos. LingQ is definitely the most effective method I've seen for accounting for which words one knows and doesn't know when learning a language, and zeroing in on the gaps.
I have never been a big fan of flash cards. I don't have fun with it, although it is a method that works well for a lot of people I just personally don't enjoy it.
I do what I want with language learning too. I think you learn better that way then having an instructor tell you what to do.
@acromel I don't know how Cody did it, but I learned 4,000 characters in Chinese in 8 months, mostly by reading and writing. I had to write an exam at the end where I translated newspaper editorials from English to Chinese, and wrote a diplomatic letter in Chinese for the British Foreign Service Exam (which I passed). I did not use SRS. I you want I can tell you what I did, or maybe I will put it in a video.
@lingosteve Yes, please. I'd be very interested in the method that you used. I'm most of the way through the Heisig method for kanji (I think Heisig has been mentioned before) but I plan on tackling Mandarin next so it may still be useful for that.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
i dont know anything about src but it sounds to be like another tedious system created to bore your mind into giving up and thinking its impossible. i believe in doing what you like in the language and through it you can gain more then just grammar and vocab but learned a great deal about what you want to know out the culture and etc
I've taught myself Mandarin Chinese. I never took a class or had a tutor. I speak it rather smoothly. I find that my method is more or less random. I'll spend a certain amount of time reading one book and go to another, constantly changing things up. Though I must disagree. I like studying sentence structure. It gives me understanding. Once I have the structure the words are interchangable to my ideas. I also spend a lot of time reading a dictionary on the Chinese side.
@Jate0000 Fuck the classroom. He's talking about learning the language so you can communicate effectively in the real world. Not about getting a good grade in a class.
@didUhaveNorgazm oral communication is only a part of language learning, plus you can do whatever you want at home. From a teacher I expect a little more that random stuff.
@Jate0000 I also read and write Chinese Characters. I think I've done a lot better by myself and switching between study materials when I would get bored that I ever could have in a classroom environment where your peers speak as badly at the language as you do. I know what I want to be able to communicate. I prefer that to a teacher telling me what words are important. For the most part I only speak with native speakers.
@didUhaveNorgazm I think that a class in a school or an institute have different goals. I know a lot of people who has studied in, for instance, the Alliace Française and has not only speaking but writing native level. It's totally ok if you want to do it by yourself though, in fact I plan to do so myself with chinese, maybe next year.
i think you're misconstruing the function of an srs. some people follow it to a 'T', while others do exactly what you're saying, doing it when they want as long as they want. either way it still works. you do not have to get a certain card down today, tomorrow, or even this year.
@19fas88 It seems to me that for the algorithm to work, you have to use the SRS system regularly. Otherwise the delays before seeing the word again will be out of whack. Or am I missing something?
@lingosteve It's true that you have to more or less stick with the SRS, but some have flexibility built into them. In other words, if you don't review for a while, the SRS adjusts for that. You can also put caps on the number of review items you see per session, or the maximum number of minutes per session. I think the main consequence is that if you don't review for a while, you're more likely to forget items that should have been reviewed earlier.
@lingosteve yeah you can modify a card to fit your needs, that's all i mean. regardless, you're absolutely right; regularity, or consistency, is probably best.
At first, yes, you must study regularly. But in order to get to a "do whatever you want" stage, reading for a few days, listening for a few days, etc... Don't you need to build a vocabulary base first? You mention you, at first, studied Chinese characters religiously when you began to learn the language.
Sure, when someone hits a couple thousand vocabulary words, the necessity to learn more begins to disappear. There's a good stretch towards the beginning of learning a language...
Where studying vocabulary is a huge part of learning the language. SRS helps make this period of time efficient.
After reaching a point of fluency that would allow me to simply read books, write letters, or have conversations, I may very well reach a similar mind set that you have. I may prefer reading every now and then over studying flash cards.
For now, though, flash cards are my friends, and I use SRS to help me study in an efficient manner. I simply run through 60-70 terms a day in about
10 minutes. I squeeze it in whenever I feel like it and have time on a given day. I certainly don't get around to it on some days, and it really doesn't upset the flow too much.
Even though I learn new words every day, my "work load" floats around 60-70 terms because older words gain more "space."
Long story short, I suppose it comes down to personal preference.
10 minutes. I squeeze it in whenever I feel like it and have time on a given day. I certainly don't get around to it on some days, and it really doesn't upset the flow too much.
Even though I learn new words every day, my "work load" floats around 60-70 terms because older words gain more "space."
Long story short, I suppose it comes down to personal preference.
(Sorry for the confusing set of responses. I ran out of characters a few times...)
The SRS phase is typically aimed at those who are not yet able to read or listen to content in their target language. I find SRS to be extremely useful as a way of absorbing enough input to allow me to listen and read. And, since sentence mining combines both grammar patterns and vocab in a digestible way, it is, in effect, graded reading material. I look forward to the time when I can dispense with SRS and go straight to target language content. But, until then...
Languages are stupid -- speak English, people!
bnrshdydvdrtrk 2 months ago
Steve, do you know of any random repetition systems out there? thanks
Trakusenpai 7 months ago
@Trakusenpai What I mean is that I do my flash carding on a random basis. So any SRS becomes random in that way, whether it is LingQ or Anki.
lingosteve 7 months ago
@lingosteve Oh I see, in my opinion your points are very interesting as I find SRSs very grueling and hard to keep up with on a daiy basis. you give great advice, cheers.
Trakusenpai 7 months ago
@Trakusenpai Try Quizlet dot come It is fun.
DrKojiin 7 months ago
Muito prático.... BAcana!
IDtKw 7 months ago
Why is RRS better than SRS? As far as I know, the brain doesn't work randomly.
Ehal256 1 year ago
Why is RRS better than SRS? As far as I know, the brain doesn't work randomly,
Ehal256 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hey everybody, I am a polyglot like Steve is and I am fluent in 37 languages and am almost fluent in French. Please check my profile to see what languages I speak first, then if you want any lessons of any of my languages, please reply to this comment mentioning the language you want to learn and me to teach and help you. Thanks.
Chezrocksall 1 year ago
HAHAHAHA I'm glad that you posted this. I find it interesting that there are other language learners who think this way. I'm exactly the same way. For me, I came to the conclusion if I 'm already spending most of my time spending time in my target language just watching shows and seeing the characters on Television I dont need to spend my time trying to force them into my head. 'You cant Rush Perfection' . So I too RRS just to improve my understanding of the meanings.
Kenshinhina 1 year ago
"We have to believe in what we are doing". …OK…..I believe that you are an opportunist and a speculator, and you are using video to exploit and take advantage and benefits from people. Also, I believe that you are a nobody, a minion, a retired loser in his hobby, that is what I believe. You know absolutely nothing about language
phonicsquest 1 year ago
Random repitition brilliant I agree completly
banayioti 1 year ago
you ROCK !!
kayally2009 1 year ago
Morpheme! Of course you don't, LOL!
Cadw 1 year ago
That being said, spaced repetition if not managed well (with, say, a computer-based system) can potentially be very very boring and this will have a very big negative impact. So far as to say that the benefits of SRS could be outweighed by the drop in attentiveness of the learner. But, if the management of the material and spacing is good and the learner is just as immersed / interested, ths SRS should produce stronger memories. How much stronger compared to random, not sure. No data...
rsherfan 1 year ago
@rsherfan Thanks Roy, and I understand this science. However, it is not obvious to me that encountering a word in a flash card review is as effective as encountering it in a meaningful context, while listening and reading. Furthermore, for the SRS to work based on the algorithm would seem to require that we review these terms regularly if not daily. Since I have over 30,000 saved terms in Russian along, that would be a lot of flash card review. Any comments?
lingosteve 1 year ago
Reinforcing the connection (and let it regress slightly) can increase the probability of it turning into a type II, which is stronger, longer lasting etc. Long story short blah blah blah eventually you go on to a type III which can basically sit in your mind without being "fired" for decades and still be fresh. Much like muscular training, a certain optimum number of "repetitions" can achieve stronger more lasting recollection with the fewest repetitions.
rsherfan 1 year ago
@rsherfan Thanks Roy, and I understand this science. However, it is not obvious to me that encountering a word in a flash card review is as effective as encountering it in a meaningful context, while listening and reading. Furthermore, for the SRS to work based on the algorithm would seem to require that we review these terms regularly if not daily. Since I have over 30,000 saved terms in Russian along, that would be a lot of flash card review. Any comments?
lingosteve 1 year ago
@lingosteve Hi Steve. I think you're correct - a word in context would generate a stronger stimulus within the context of a story. The algorithm will most likely be many times per day exposure but some programs can "compensate" for off time. Basically a specific term *must* be left to "rot" in the brain and then "salvaged". It is crucial that this phenomenon happen for stronger connections to form. Connections constantly "revived" frequently are actually weaker in the long run.
rsherfan 1 year ago
@lingosteve it would be interesting to see if you can work spaced repetition at the transcript level. each transcript has a collection of words that would potentially be unique to itself. By rostering, thus "leaving" these transcripts and then revisiting them later on will force the brain to bolster the connections to these less-frequently used words. It is this "downtime" that is telling the brain "these memories need to be stored with sterner stuff". I think that could be useful at LingQ.
rsherfan 1 year ago
@lingosteve Hey Steve. I agree that encountering a word in a flash card review is probably not as effective as encountering it in a meaningful context, e.g. while listening and reading. I think it is a common, and unfortunate mistake that most SRS flash-card users make where they will make a simple word-definition Q&A flashcard. This CAN work (and HAS worked for me), but it most certainly is far less powerful than doing it "in context" as you described.... (continued...)
JohnSchock 1 year ago
@lingosteve (...continued) There have been plenty of times that I have learned a new word, using spaced-repetition, and the word had failed to crop up in my mind at the right moment. Then again, there have been times that it has. Spaced repetition could be made more powerful by introducing the "context" of the word as part of the flashcard system. Random (yet appropriate) usage of learned words most certainly would be far more effective, (continued2...)
JohnSchock 1 year ago
Comment removed
JohnSchock 1 year ago
@lingosteve (...2continued) but I think only within the framework of spaced-repetition can this "random" contextual element be of maximum effect. As far as having 30,000 saved flash cards, this really is no problem so long as you limit yourself to a realistic amount every day. You can skip days, but it's not as effective as doing it every day.
JohnSchock 1 year ago
Now on to SRS. The short summary: The brain has (say) type I, II and III connections that can store facts, events etc. Type I connections can't survive longer than a certain period if it isn't reinforced. Re-firing these connections at certain key times reinforces the connection profoundly. For example, reinforcing a type i connection 100 times in the space of 1 hour will not strengthen the connection much and it will remain as type I.
rsherfan 1 year ago
Hi Steve. Although I have some "science" to demonstrate SRS, I am weary that what works on paper can be different in reality and I do recall how I didn't see how your flashcard system would work because of the way the brain stores memory, but then later I realised (too long to explain here) that your flashcard system would infact work very well. The flash cards make you 'more attentive' which helps comprehension which ultimately helps language learning, like your computers "cache" speeds it up.
rsherfan 1 year ago
Probably I should improve my attitude towards repetition. I think I act way too programatically (each and every day podcast + book + flashcards). Sometimes this stresses me. Maybe I just have to take it easy as you do, Steve.
adalberto1178 1 year ago
i disagree with even flashcards, i dont see why so many people put so much effort into memorizing vocab and stuff, sure reviewing words lists and such is ok but you don't need to memorize words or sentences so that you can recall them 100% of the time. the more content you are exposed to and the more times you are forced to recall things, the more ingrained into your mind they will be. The more important things you will be more exposed to and thus naturally memorize imo.
pamination 1 year ago
Hi Steve, can you make a video describing how you learned the Chinese characters?
poleag 1 year ago
I do whatever my algorithm tells me to. Kill.Sleep.Eat One day Steve you too will understand that we all must do what commands the Algorithm.
blindside70 1 year ago 3
Steve -- good video. Paul Pimsleur did research into this area and was able to establish results showing success with the graduated interval recall and spaced repetition methods. I found the Pimsleur method effective, but repetitious. I started using LingQ recently, as a result of watching your YouTube videos. LingQ is definitely the most effective method I've seen for accounting for which words one knows and doesn't know when learning a language, and zeroing in on the gaps.
LearningFrenchNow 1 year ago
everyone should do what they wanna do and what works for them.
xnightxamex 1 year ago
I have never been a big fan of flash cards. I don't have fun with it, although it is a method that works well for a lot of people I just personally don't enjoy it.
I do what I want with language learning too. I think you learn better that way then having an instructor tell you what to do.
Random repetition is better in my opinion too.
Codylangaugesblog 1 year ago
@Codylangaugesblog Out of interest, how did you learn the 2,500-3000 common hanzi without an SRS? Surely not just brute-force by-rote?
acromel 1 year ago
@acromel I don't know how Cody did it, but I learned 4,000 characters in Chinese in 8 months, mostly by reading and writing. I had to write an exam at the end where I translated newspaper editorials from English to Chinese, and wrote a diplomatic letter in Chinese for the British Foreign Service Exam (which I passed). I did not use SRS. I you want I can tell you what I did, or maybe I will put it in a video.
lingosteve 1 year ago 4
@lingosteve Yes, please. I'd be very interested in the method that you used. I'm most of the way through the Heisig method for kanji (I think Heisig has been mentioned before) but I plan on tackling Mandarin next so it may still be useful for that.
acromel 1 year ago 5
@lingosteve Putting it into a video would be great!
LearningFrenchNow 1 year ago 3
@lingosteve 4,000 characters in 8 months, that truly is an amazing achievement !
Loyal801 1 year ago
@acromel I have never used SRS
Codylangaugesblog 1 year ago
@Codylangaugesblog Wow! I'm impressed. I just can't imagine learning Japanese kanji without one.
acromel 1 year ago
Comment removed
oifex 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
i dont know anything about src but it sounds to be like another tedious system created to bore your mind into giving up and thinking its impossible. i believe in doing what you like in the language and through it you can gain more then just grammar and vocab but learned a great deal about what you want to know out the culture and etc
charmides1 1 year ago
I've taught myself Mandarin Chinese. I never took a class or had a tutor. I speak it rather smoothly. I find that my method is more or less random. I'll spend a certain amount of time reading one book and go to another, constantly changing things up. Though I must disagree. I like studying sentence structure. It gives me understanding. Once I have the structure the words are interchangable to my ideas. I also spend a lot of time reading a dictionary on the Chinese side.
didUhaveNorgazm 1 year ago
all ramdom? how do you expect to have a plan to follow in a classroom?
Jate0000 1 year ago
@Jate0000 Fuck the classroom. He's talking about learning the language so you can communicate effectively in the real world. Not about getting a good grade in a class.
didUhaveNorgazm 1 year ago
@didUhaveNorgazm oral communication is only a part of language learning, plus you can do whatever you want at home. From a teacher I expect a little more that random stuff.
Jate0000 1 year ago
@Jate0000 I also read and write Chinese Characters. I think I've done a lot better by myself and switching between study materials when I would get bored that I ever could have in a classroom environment where your peers speak as badly at the language as you do. I know what I want to be able to communicate. I prefer that to a teacher telling me what words are important. For the most part I only speak with native speakers.
didUhaveNorgazm 1 year ago
@didUhaveNorgazm I think that a class in a school or an institute have different goals. I know a lot of people who has studied in, for instance, the Alliace Française and has not only speaking but writing native level. It's totally ok if you want to do it by yourself though, in fact I plan to do so myself with chinese, maybe next year.
Jate0000 1 year ago
@Jate0000 Maybe we should allow a little or random learning, or individual choice in the classroom.
lingosteve 1 year ago
i think you're misconstruing the function of an srs. some people follow it to a 'T', while others do exactly what you're saying, doing it when they want as long as they want. either way it still works. you do not have to get a certain card down today, tomorrow, or even this year.
19fas88 1 year ago
@19fas88 It seems to me that for the algorithm to work, you have to use the SRS system regularly. Otherwise the delays before seeing the word again will be out of whack. Or am I missing something?
lingosteve 1 year ago
@lingosteve It's true that you have to more or less stick with the SRS, but some have flexibility built into them. In other words, if you don't review for a while, the SRS adjusts for that. You can also put caps on the number of review items you see per session, or the maximum number of minutes per session. I think the main consequence is that if you don't review for a while, you're more likely to forget items that should have been reviewed earlier.
Bortrun 1 year ago
@lingosteve yeah you can modify a card to fit your needs, that's all i mean. regardless, you're absolutely right; regularity, or consistency, is probably best.
19fas88 1 year ago
@lingosteve
At first, yes, you must study regularly. But in order to get to a "do whatever you want" stage, reading for a few days, listening for a few days, etc... Don't you need to build a vocabulary base first? You mention you, at first, studied Chinese characters religiously when you began to learn the language.
Sure, when someone hits a couple thousand vocabulary words, the necessity to learn more begins to disappear. There's a good stretch towards the beginning of learning a language...
Shizaru2723 1 year ago
Where studying vocabulary is a huge part of learning the language. SRS helps make this period of time efficient.
After reaching a point of fluency that would allow me to simply read books, write letters, or have conversations, I may very well reach a similar mind set that you have. I may prefer reading every now and then over studying flash cards.
For now, though, flash cards are my friends, and I use SRS to help me study in an efficient manner. I simply run through 60-70 terms a day in about
Shizaru2723 1 year ago
10 minutes. I squeeze it in whenever I feel like it and have time on a given day. I certainly don't get around to it on some days, and it really doesn't upset the flow too much.
Even though I learn new words every day, my "work load" floats around 60-70 terms because older words gain more "space."
Long story short, I suppose it comes down to personal preference.
(Sorry for the confusing responses)
Shizaru2723 1 year ago
10 minutes. I squeeze it in whenever I feel like it and have time on a given day. I certainly don't get around to it on some days, and it really doesn't upset the flow too much.
Even though I learn new words every day, my "work load" floats around 60-70 terms because older words gain more "space."
Long story short, I suppose it comes down to personal preference.
(Sorry for the confusing set of responses. I ran out of characters a few times...)
Shizaru2723 1 year ago
The SRS phase is typically aimed at those who are not yet able to read or listen to content in their target language. I find SRS to be extremely useful as a way of absorbing enough input to allow me to listen and read. And, since sentence mining combines both grammar patterns and vocab in a digestible way, it is, in effect, graded reading material. I look forward to the time when I can dispense with SRS and go straight to target language content. But, until then...
acromel 1 year ago 2
@acromel Very interesting comment. I will get to this question in another video on the subject.
lingosteve 1 year ago