Crystallization of homemade sodium acetate

[thedragonfire100]

ha ha ha cows

[ripper99100]

How will you get it out ? :P

wil reheating it work ?

[hceriseh]

is it sth like the warm packet?

[dragonridley]

Why is it colored?

[ObamaBiden20082012]

whatever you do don't throw that in a fresh water lake!! It will freeze all the normal water, any water that gets in contact with turns to room temperature ice like in the video. Its a chain reaction I think, just a small bit could turn the great lakes to permanently frozen. This isn't a problem with the ocean, because the salt prevents this so called "hot ice" from occurring!! Obama 2012!!

[alchemist1791]

@ObamaBiden20082012 Actually, the soultion already has the Sodium Acetate added, and in order for something like freezing of a lake to happen, it would also have to have the equivalent amount of sodium acetate in it.

[jeffmckishen]

if this is the case then throwing salt and vinegar chips into a lake would freeze it

[williamcartee]

@ObamaBiden20082012 dosent anyone know that sodium"salt" makes water melt thats why fresh water even cant flash freez lol because of the m-cules in it wont allow the bonding : )

[adigal123]

When you'r melting it do you have to add water?

[gehtomacgyver]

@adigal123 yes and no the first time you will have to add water to completely dissolve all the other times you should not oh cool tip if your solution crystallizes on the bottom poor of the liquid the has not yet crystallized and you will make it purer

[indigoandblack00]

Actually, the answer is "yes and no", but not the first time. Once it crystallizes completely the first time, you could even pour off any excess fluid - at that point, you're left with exactly enough water. However several cycles of reheating could then evaporate off enough water so that you can never fully redissolve the crystals. It's at that point you'd want to add water, a small amount at a time.

[gehtomacgyver]

well so kinda what i said but not exact so thanks

[Towelie58]

i did this and the flask shattered on me

[adigal123]

@Towelie58 Some flasks shouldn't be heated.

[gehtomacgyver]

@Towelie58 same when the heat from the sodium acetate heats up on the ice cold flask it will shatter :P hurts

[adigal123]

How are you going to get that out of the flask?

[DMxNemesis]

let it melt

[Tullidar1]

brilliant. gotta try this :D

[armadillo4495]

gillygilly its not as complicated as it sounds, im familiar with all this too

[djtom74]

After one hour in the freezer, my beer made similar when I opened it X)

[bibibaz]

Cool

[djtom74]

Yes ^^

[indigoandblack00]

I have an Instructables page... Go to dub-dub-dub-dot-instructables-­dot-com, search for "crystallization homemade sodium acetate". :-)

[krankiev]

It is a bit surprising to me that it didn't break the flask.. Doesn't this stuff expand when it crystallizes?

[indigoandblack00]

Nope. I'm not sure what the actual volume change is (if any), but it's not appreciable.

[krankiev]

Ah, okay thanks. :)

[fmlygyfntc]

when you boil the liquid with sodium acetate, you dilute the sodium acetate into the liquid far beyond the natural limitations of diluting it in room temperature. Therefore, you can now call the solution "Supersaturated", because it contains too much of the solution, so when it cools off one simple touch can reactivate the sodium acetate in the liquid, therefor creating an exothermic reaction, releasing heat, allowing the liquid to freeze.

[indigoandblack00]

Sort of. :-) First off, I think you meant "dissolve", not "dilute". Also, this solution isn't *quite* the classic supersaturated solution (with a solute dissolved in a solvent)... in the classic case, once crystallization begins, that lowers the concentration of the solute, and at some point crystallization will cease (leaving plenty of solute in the solvent). it's also usually just the solute itself that crystallizes.

[indigoandblack00]

In this case, the ideal solution contains three water molecules for every sodium and acetate pair; once crystallization starts, each sodium and acetate pair joins with three water molecules (thus sodium acetate trihydrate). You can see that as crystallization proceeds, the concentration of the solute doesn't change, and the entire solution will crystallize.

[indigoandblack00]

Look up a few comments above, and go to my Instructables page for instructions, if you've not already seen it.

Not sure what you mean by "regular" vinegar - if you mean anything other than white vinegar, then no, very likely not... There would be way too much undesirable stuff in the resulting solution (sugars, for example), which will interfere with getting the solution to a supersaturated state.

[crazysurpher]

plz tell me can I use the regular vinegar?

[krankiev]

white vinegar is regular vinegar..

[indigoandblack00]

Well, for a lot of people, when they think "plain old vinegar", they're really thinking of cider vinegar, of the sort you might find in a bottle as a condiment. (Unless you're a cook or a geek... :-) )

[indigoandblack00]

See the below comment - somehow I accidentally posted a regular comment rather than a reply... :-)

[cooldud11122]

Unfourtunately it never worked for me i did exactly everything you said. I think I did something wrong with mixing baking soda to vinegar.

[indigoandblack00]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, it took me *four tries* to figure out how to make things work right. Feel free to email me if you want to talk about it!

[Xplay3093]

This solution is Veryyyy Pickey-- I found that out myself today 0_o. U need to make sure u got out Alot of the water by boiling the weak Sodium Acetate Solution, and put it in the freezer for a while till it gets pretty cold, then u can have fun and drop a crystal or two of the Acetate from the pot u boiled the Solution in. Believe me, it may take a few trys, just keep reboiling it and stuff?? but wat exactly is the problem? is it crystalizing in the fridge or something?

[indigoandblack00]

Actually, I've got an Instructables page that details the entire process I went through. Go to instructables-dot-com and search - it's called "Crystallization of homemade sodium acetate". :-)

[bluetrilobite]

how do you remove it from the container?

[indigoandblack00]

You don't - at least not from an Erlenmyer flask. If you double-boil it, the crystals will lose their water, and the sodium acetate will redissolve into solution - and once completely redissolved, it can be cooled and the crystallization repeated. If you wanted the crystals themselves out, you could pour it into a beaker or a bowl and trigger it.

[bluetrilobite]

thanks, so it is a reversible reaction.

i was worried they threw away the flask afterward.

[krankiev]

every chemical reaction is reversible. Ya just gotta know how to do it.

[Faktoreq]

no, lol. burn something - that is chemical reaction - can you reverse it ?

[krankiev]

It can be reversed if the products can be caught and enough energy supplied. All chemical reactions are reversible, but not always easy. hahaha.

[gillygilly3]

Dude, only physial reactions can be reversed, Reversing a chemical reaction is almost impossible...

[krankiev]

not true. many chemical reactions are easily reversed. Rechargeable batteries, for example. The burning of hydrogen gas to produce water can be reversed pretty easy too. There are plenty others but I think you get the picture...

[gillygilly3]

I said ALMOST impossible, and batteries don't count very much, because we just put in some electricity.

And burning hydrogen creates H2O VAPOR, not liquid... srry bro...and anyway, sur eit IS possible, but hard to do

[krankiev]

H2O vapor is condensed into a liquid, duh...

Electrolytic cells do count as a reverse of a chemical reaction.. that's how many are done. That's how we get pure sodium metal, from NaCl, table salt. The salt is melted and electrolysis is used to separate Na from Cl, thus reversing the chemical reaction of

Na(s) + Cl(g) → NaCl(s) to:

NaCl(l) + energy → Na(s) + Cl(g)

[gillygilly3]

From where in this fucking world do you get all this?!?!? are you some sort of a brainiac?! O.O dude....you know more in science then i do in pyrotechnics...O.o

[krankiev]

I am one of the few students who actually pays attention in Chemistry. Average constantly in the 90s... hehe

[blindboy2]

you dont need to be in the 90s to know how to seperate NA from Cl

Lolz

[Tullidar1]

nah, it's fairly simple.

and there's tons of stuff on the net on how to do this ^^

[krankiev]

it's easy to reverse many chemical reactions while others are difficult indeed, but you are wrong as far as "almost impossible".

[brown0eyed0cat]

Nice colour! This stuff gets hot after you drop the thing(sorry, but i have no idea what its called) into the sodium acetate, right?

[indigoandblack00]

It's just a seed crystal of sodium acetate. And yes, it gets rather warm... crystallizing sodium acetate trihydrate can get up to about 130 degrees F, I think - but the stuff I made isn't pure, and releases its heat more slowly. 100 deg F is probably more like it.

[sowthpark101]

ok so i mixed vinigar and baking soda. after its done fizzing, i put in the mircrowave until its ... clear or just until it turns into mush? and after than, wat do i do

ps: i tried the intrsuctables guide but mine didnt work =|

[indigoandblack00]

Um...  I wouldn't recommend using a microwave to boil down the solution - it really needs a good, gentle, continuous boil, and you're going to be evaporating such a large amount of water I think it would be impractical in a closed microwave.

The best suggestions I can make are all in the Instructables page. It took me several tries to get it right myself...

[sowthpark101]

ok ill try mixing the vinagar and baking soda then boiling it until it desolves

[sowthpark101]

nvm, i got it to the point were its in solid form, and dissoved it in water and im waiting for it to cool

[pyroduck7]

my sodium acetate i boil water, put that in and it just either cristalizes when it cools or dosnt react when i add more sodium acetate. you got any tips ?

[pyroduck7]

nice. the aynoying part is getting the bugger out of the glass!

[indigoandblack00]

Hehehe... generally, one doesn't - it's a "resettable" solution. You double-boil it, and it "melts", restoring the supersaturated solution. Cool it, and do it again. :-)

[jasminele123]

who knows how to make hot ice without Sodium Acetate?

[indigoandblack00]

Um... that's akin to asking how to make thermite without iron oxide powder.

"Hot ice" refers to the classic sodium acetate solution. "Hot" refers to the fact that when it crystallizes, it yields heat; "ice" refers to the appearance of the crystals.

[nirvanafan833]

use copper oxide lol :P

but I know what you mean

[indigoandblack00]

Gotta be a chemist in every conversation. The *point*, man, the point! ;-)

[redelman]

You can make sodium acetate by mixing viniger and oven lye in equimolar proportions.

[slara90]

hi it's me again! thx soooo much for the information taht was really helpful and nice of u to do that! any way! i tried it out and now i got sodium acetate! thx sooooooooo much@ bye!

[indigoandblack00]

Congrats! And you're quite welcome!

[slara90]

can some one tell me how to make sodium acetate?

[indigoandblack00]

You can visit the Instructables website at dub-dub-dub-dot-instructables-­dot-com and look up my entry, entitled, "Crystallization of homemade sodium acetate."

So I've tried to post this reply about ten different ways - I take it YouTube filters things that look like website addresses, even for the video owner's responses??

[0rip0]

If you do it this way it'll work:

instructables. com

YouTube doesn't allow the w-w-w or h-t-t-p parts.

[indigoandblack00]

Ah! Never tried that particular combination. Thanks!

It's a little annoying that the *page owner* can't even include URLs. I can understand filtering them otherwise, to prevent comment spam, but...

[indigoandblack00]

You double-boil the flask, and the trihydrate crystals "melt", dissociating back into sodium and acetate ions in water. Cool it carefully and it remains liquid.

[zeekloft]

correct me if im mistaken but i think to get that out dont you boil it?

[indigoandblack00]

Sorry?

[lightxian2]

So let me see if Im right if not let me know

1. Put vinegar and banking soda together till it stops bobbling

2. Then but it into boiling water

3. Take that and put it into the fizzer leaving the powder behind

4. Touch it and ice right man

1. How much vinegar and baking soda?

2. How hot and how long and how much water?

3. How long in the fizzer?

If thats wrong let me know Thanks man

[ruskie20]

thank im lazy to buy sa so i just made it does it make sculptures

???

[ruskie20]

and do u drop soldium acetate in the water

[ruskie20]

could u use charcol from tap beer cans and plain charcoil for fire

[indigoandblack00]

Doubtful. Pure charcoal granules are best.

[101455580]

I know indigoandblack00 from instructables.

[1werdan]

is it edible when solid?

[indigoandblack00]

Um, well, sodium acetate isn't exactly toxic in and of itself (it's used, I understand, as a flavoring in some salt & vinegar potato chips), in small quantities at least... but I'd refrain from ingesting any you've made. :-)

I have tasted it, however - and it's got the characteristic salty sour flavor you'd expect from sodium acetate. I don't recommend this, though!

[deryck7j]

ok, first i have to boil the vinegar with some baking soda until it turns yellow right?

[musicalxxdancer]

if it turns yellow you've cooked it too much i think

[redrubber44]

can you do this with malt (brown) vinegar? i did it and it stank up the entire house and left brownish crystals but i havnt dissolved it in water yet to make hot ice

[indigoandblack00]

No.  Malt vinegar has *way* too much organic baggage. :-)

[redrubber44]

i see. thats maybe why it smelt like shit for the next 2 days

[indigoandblack00]

No. It will turn an amber color due to the organic impurities in the vinegar.

[iron2474]

what is the temperature when it is still in liquid phase and when it turn into solid

[adriankocian]

near 55°C

[extreamboy12]

ok....lol....one question to making the homemade ingredient(i saw that other webswite).

Well...do u hav to do the charcoal part...because i dont hav any charcoal.

[indigoandblack00]

Well, I couldn't get it to work without it, and I tried for a week. There are too many large organic impurities in the solution... the activated charcoal reduces their concentration significantly.

You can get the stuff from a pet supply company - it's used in fishtank filters, and it's not terribly expensive.

[extreamboy12]

ya lol im not worried about the price...thx ;)

[extreamboy12]

so to get that...i need...

-Baking Soda

-White Vinegar

And then i just boil that to make the solution?

[indigoandblack00]

Sort of... but not quite.

I've made an Instructables page that shows the entire process. Go to the Instructables website and do a search for "sodium acetate", then look at the result entitled, "Crystallization of homemade sodium acetate" (or search for my username, indigoandblack).

Good luck!

[grrols]

in my country you cant buy baking soda will baking powder do?

[indigoandblack00]

Really. What country is that?

I don't believe it will. Baking powder is a combination of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and one or two acid salts (like cream of tartar). The acid salts will react with the bicarb, and I'm not sure how that will affect the result. You'd also need a fair amount of it, I'd imagine.

No way of getting unadulterated sodium bicarbonate?

[grrols]

its in holland and im 13 so i cant drive or anything

i have some sodium carbonate but its only a small amount

how much does baking soda cost??

[coolman17701]

is it possible to melt the ice back to its original form and use it again?

[indigoandblack00]

Totally. It's a crystal - not ice. But when it's heated, at some point the heat will begin driving out the water from the trihydrate molecules, and the sodium acetate will dissociate into ions and redissolve into it, essentially.

If I double boil the flask, after about 15-20 minutes or so, it's all liquid again, and will cool that way, ready to be triggered again.

[baracudarions]

how can i get sodium acetate? how much?

[indigoandblack00]

Google. ;-) Try the United Nuclear website - you can get 8 oz. of sodium acetate trihydrate for $12.

[indigoandblack00]

Most any chemical supply house will have it. Google it... You might try unitednuclear dot com.

[fatalfury28]

where do you buy those

[indigoandblack00]

Buy what?

[xenopeltismulticolor]

sodium accetate kicks ass!

[powerwithin135]

Umm. indigo, i saw the instructibles page and i had some questions so i decided to make your life easier and send them in a message... sorry if that was a bother =\

[psyhless]

I heard to make sodium acetate all you gotta do is mix vinigar and baking soda untill it stops reacting and then boil it right?

[indigoandblack00]

Er, sort of. :-) Have a look at the Instructables dot com page I made, referred to in a much earlier comment.

[sugar1993]

this may be irrelavant to the video, but may i ask how do you separate iron(II)sulphate from water?

[terraStones]

um, don't they have different boiling temperatures? if so, boil until one of them vaporizes, and if it's the iron sulphate, put something cool above the vapors, so it can condense.. well, that's my idea, i don't know if it works...but good luck!

[hockey3428]

yeah just boil it until the water is gone... does iron sulphate occur naturally with water or could you just get some from a chemical store?

[indigoandblack00]

Offhand, no clue... its boiling point is 90 C, so you can't necessarily just boil off the water - it forms a monohydrate at that temperature... What is it you want to do with it? Making it from scratch is not without its hazards... I'd suggest buying what you need from a chemical supply house.

[bobbypuzza]

its boiling point is at 118c, so what's the prob? the prob is that it'll contains lots of rubbish like biologic material and solfits SO3 and nitrates NO3..sooo...when you boil the water off, you'll nnot have pure sodium accitate. But you can filter the solution before boiling...but if you're not a chemist, go and buy it to a chem supply house

[mask9a]

i put vineger 700ml+baking soda40g = sodium accetate right?

[rawrstephie]

umm.

i heard ur supposed to boil it til it turns yellow..

[namttam1992]

yea the measurements are right, and yes you boil it until it turns yellow. usually about 20 minutes. sometimes less.

[indigoandblack00]

Have a look at the Instructables dot com page I made, referred to in an earlier comment.

[mask9a]

thanksmy _ butQuestion is how can i get the crystals from the SA?

[mask9a]

thanks_but my question is how do i get the crystals of SA?

[mask9a]

i saw this video the same thing hot ice but he touched the chemical with his finger's so does it work just with touching it or it has to be crystal that i have to touch with?

[indigoandblack00]

Many things will trigger the crystallization - a fingertip, a broken glass rod, a little dust - but it's best if you use a tiny amount of sodium acetate, because that will keep the solution "clean". If there is too much of, or the right kind of contaminants in the solution, it will spontaneously crystallize when it's cooling and you won't be able to get it to room temperature as a solution.

[sora1201]

The crystal has to touch it

[mask9a]

thanks becouse now i have the chemical and i dont know how to get the crystal's from do you boil it tell it desolves and then you get the crystal's.Please reply:)

[indigoandblack00]

If you have pure sodium acetate (anhydrous), it will dissolve into pure water in a ratio of about 2.6:1 by weight - i.e., 2.6 g anhydrous sodium acetate to 1 mL water - when the water is heated to 100 deg C.

Pick a volume of water, heat it to 100 deg C, dissolve in the appropriate proportional amount of sodium acetate, and let it cool to room temperature.

Drop in one or two grains of sodium acetate - and watch!

[mask9a]

so when you get the chemical ready do u drop a backing soda or what..pls reply becouse i want to try it.

[indigoandblack00]

To trigger crystallization, I drop in a small crystal of sodium acetate. If you want to see the whole process, look at the reply below and have a look at the Instructables dot com page I put together.

[adrianeinstain]

I've done my sodium acetate myself too, but it is only a little yellow. how much sodium acetate in this bottle is? mayby in poland is better vinegar:D:D. now I'm going tu do much sodium acetate so mayby it will be orange. it looks nice. white is boring:D

[adrianeinstain]

why it is orange?

[indigoandblack00]

It's homemade - that is, I didn't buy pure sodium acetate from a chemical supply house, I made it using baking soda and white vinegar. The amber color comes from organic impurities in the vinegar - the color appears during boiling. To see the process...

Weird. For some reason, my reply won't post if I have a URL in it... Go to Instructables dot com and search for "sodium acetate" - then find the entry with the same name as this video. :-)