@nabuchiznassar a true book from God will not have so many different varying eye witness an accounts, opinions, heck even the disciples don't agree with one another, and to make matters worst, the founder of Christianity or Paul was not even around during the time of Jesus yet he claim to be inspired, don't you think if anyone should be inspired it would be those who were the closest to Jesus like aka his disciples and eye-witnesses!!!! face the fact, even the last supper is very contradict.
@nabuchiznassar Every religion has books of things that r coming true,even our prophet mention many things of prophesy like music in every house, murder, earthquake, diseases, people going to space, all in the hadith 100%, so don't tell me that prophesy is what makes the bible anything authentic, no its clearly obvious, the bible has errors, its an oral tradition that were written down by some priest from what they remembered but not exact actual words or account of Jesus.Who are the authors?
When you consider that the canonical gospels don't agree with one another, it should become painfully clear to any christian watching this that in fact we don't know anything about Jesus for a fact. Therefore why believe he is divine, and why worship him?
@zacthebold many non judaio prophets have been sent to pagan people, examples? budha to indians, where the refused his message and he subsequintly moved to china, confucious to the asians, gandhi again to the indians, and its been said nabuchiznasar felt the presence of god, joseph was sent to egypt where the hebrews where hated, daniel to babylon where they had no problem polverizing any non worshippers of the mighty king, and even socrates to the ancient greeks.
If the bible was the Book of God there would not be all these books, come on, it seem almost like a fairy tail, every book has a version of there own story, the church decided what to add and subtract and not God!!! Whats next the book of Mike, and Stanley, Denis, etc... There is so many contradictions even in the old and new testaments its enough to know this was written by man and not of God, just Oral stories created to suit there belief. OOH I WANT MY BOOK INCLUDED, NO MINE, NO MINE, OK! smh
@dablkfabio well if the church tampered with the word of god then their blood is upon their head, coz it clearly says at the end of the good book that nothing should be added or substracted from what is written...look at all the signs around you and tell me all this wasnt prophecised thousands of years ago...either take the message or leave it that way at least u can argue ignorance on ur day of judgement.
another Catholic conspiracy lie to answer the truth. clearly, it defends the "church" from the truth that is unfolding in this end time. The beast have been uncovered.
Am I the only one, who is personally building a hypothesis from a non religious point of view that everything is symbolic. That the banned texts could point toward what the Church did not want us to realise? Could Jesus represent something within all of us from a spiritual view point? hmmm
@DiegoRmadrid There is nothing in this world that is not spiritual, its the very essence of everything and that includes positive or negative. My own opinion of course! :)
@DiegoRmadrid I am not saying its secret keeping, more a case of leaving out what does not fit their "Truths" and control systems. If you have the eyes to see, you will find the information and then can only but use the material in a way that fits your own personal truths and observations. In other words, what I am trying to say is, I only know what I personally experience and observe and this trumps all so called truths pushed by establishments... Thanks for the thought provoking chat Diego :)
What I don't get is why they ain't showing all of this banned material? There's been banned stories saying "When Adam and Eve saw them, their creators, they loathed them. Since they were beastly forms" then there's another verse saying "They served him out of fear". Where's those texts? I'm not a believer in the bible, I just want to find out what the real story is behind it. I personally think it's a conspiracy.
@miamileeds Yes.Well the Gnostics believed that Yahweh is NOT the father of Jesus. NOT the father. So who is? Maybe to Yahweh Jesus as well as self actualized divine man who is the beast in Revelations is a threat. Perhaps this is why obedience, terror and shame are what he uses to control man since the Garden. When one reads the OT it sounds like a threat. Makes you wonder why God is always so angry and jealous. Maybe he's not God.
Haa Hell will be overcrowded with usurers in excretement. Not that I believe in advocating brimstone and fire but some avaricious conspiratory fux who oppose humanity and God should be thoroughly whipped with some electrical chords. Mind you this will take a few days so I hope there is a crew up to this task on the nether side.
Revelation 10:11 And they say to me(John), "You must prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings."
Is John one of the witnesses?
Check out my favs, especially the one about the stars found in the bible. Pics in those videos of the Sun Moon and Stars are authentic and the end time is drawing. The stars seem to be 11 then 12 and then definitely7. Check out these symbols and signs from heaven.
anyone know what the OWN stand for above jesus's head?? and i know its NWO backwards but i would be interested to know what it mean in the bible as i cant find anything on it :(
FYI: I read your bible torah, and all kind of religious books...I didn't find the word TRINITY in bible. I never saw any red letter bible where Jesus claimed to be a GOD...or told you to make Idol and Worship him. Can you show me a single verse?
I know you will put "I am" type of fogyish verses...But can you tell me Why the Basis Of Christianity is so vague and Why not So bold to announce.
If I don't understand trinity-Then it's your duty to make me understand the Trinity concept. Mail me.
It was NOT written, it was DECIDED by the Council of Nicaea that only "trinity" characteristics can explain and link all the "allegations" made in the old scriptures in order to make it "logical".
@yo1o2eggs thats why jesus says when u pray, go to your room, close ur door and pray to god alone, and when u fast make ur best attempts not to let people know u r fasting, do not test ur lord god, for even ur thoughts are open to the lord..churches are not perfect places, neither are priests perfect people, every 1 is scared of death including ur self, jesus clearly wasnt and thats why he was resurected.
@nabuchiznasar Uh...I'm not afraid of death. I wasn't scared before I existed, why should I be scared when I cease to exist?
I'm an Atheist, I'm not convinced that there is a god. When people pray, you are only talking to yourself.
When you read the bible, keep this in mind, these are stories from the middle east at the time when there are no fact checkers. It has been translated over and over by MEN with their own flawed understanding and biases.
Keep us on the right path. The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray. (1:6-7)
Muhammad was once asked if these words pertained to Jews and Christians. His response was, "Whom else?" (Bukhari 56:662).
but this does not mean the basic message is wrong Christianity teaches us to Love our God n one another Christianity DOES NOT tell us to go to wars n kill people cause we want to steal their wealth on lies unfortunately the biggest loss of life on earth was commided by chriatians yet we accuse muslims n others for our crimes am sure Jesus has something to say when the time comes what a thought hitler stalin mousolini kaise n bush to face Jesus!
The only book I found provides a comprehensive understanding of events past, present and future is the Holy Bible. The chief proponents of the diabolical "New World Order" are invariably members of secret societies (satanic) and are of Illumanati bloodlines (past 12/13 of US Presidents). Arrival of, planet Nibiru, discovered in 1983, NASA estimates to arrive our solar system 2012, with be devastating results.
All previous Bible Prophecy has been fulfilled and Jesus Christ never lies.
I'm sorry to keep responding to you here pamuk7. Let us continue our conversation in PM. Our going back and forth is off topic for this thread and it's annoying to have to keep checking back here. Deal?
pamuk7, do you know the names of all the memorizers and reciters of the Quran? Do you know the identities of all the scribes who wrote it down? If not, then your criticism of the New Testament isn't valid. Muslims claim that the Gospel (message of Jesus) was from God, but that the followers of Jesus corrupted it. I'm not sure if you believe the Bible was written down correctly and then changed or if it was recorded incorrectly in the first place. But you haven't shown evidence for either yet.
That really doesn't matter. Any book can contain within it claims that what is being written is from God. Muslims make a big deal of claiming that the Quran is God's words and God's word only. You yourself believe that human beings can speak the words of God. So why is it a problem for you if it was "According to Matthew"? The Quran is "according to Muhammad" (or perhaps "Muhammad's reciters" is better) even if it doesn't have that explicitly as the first line.
So my question for you is... how do you know that all the people who memorized, copied and compiled (and revised, like Uthman) the Quran were all supernaturally prevented by God from making any kinds of errors or corrupting it, pamuk7? Thank you, I'll check my inbox. No, I'm not an atheist. I'm challenging the notion that the Bible is corrupt but the Quran not only is perfect and not corrupt but could never be corrupted.
"but you cant currupt and change the hearts. Ameen"
I disagree, I think it's clear from history that you can. What you're really saying is that somehow the Muslim community was not subject to the same temptations and problems that the Jewish, Christian, and other communities were subject to. That's the only way you can make those absolutist claims stick, as I see it.
So were all these 1000 people inspired by God also, pamuk7? If not, then it's possible some of them got it wrong. Were the scribes who then took dictation from these 1000 also inspired by God? If not, then mistakes could have been made. And so on and so forth, for all the scribes for the next 1400+ years. That's my point I was getting at. If you want to say the Quran today is perfect and uncorruptable, don't you have to believe that?
The fact that people memorize the Quran has no bearing on the truth of its message, or whether it was truly from God or corrupted, pamuk7. I'm sure there are people who memorize Mao's Little Red Book as well. If Muhammad was unlettered, who wrote the Quran? Muhammad's followers? So how do you know they were uncorruptable as well? And the scribes who copied it for 1400 years? We've discovered different versions of the Quran, so copyist errors exist in it as well as any ancient document.
We have bibles from before the time of Muhammad. Recently, ancient Qurans have been discovered that differ from modern Qurans in wide use by Muslims. Again, pamuk7, I'd love to debate these and other issues with you... send me a private message!
pamuk7, if you'd like to debate me over private message I can show you plenty of contradictions in the Quran and skeptical criticism of it. My point was to ask you how you KNEW the the Quran was uncorrupted. I'm curious about the logic of God sending messages to humanity and them ALL being corrupted and forgotten EXCEPT the Quran (why didn't God make the previous messages uncorruptable? Why not give the Quran to Adam?).
Just FYI, ladenfuckedu refused to debate me, and instead just threw a bunch of profanity out. Apparently his arguments aren't strong enough to defend in a rational dialog.
pamuk7... you should see what the Mormons have to say about scriptures from God. They've got the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, all from the Prophet Joseph Smith! They don't recognize the Quran as inspired.
"Allah says in the quran: (that woe to the hands that wrote) and added to the word of god thats what the bible is.."
If that's true, then the Quran should not have been written. After all, Muhammad admitted that the word of God was already given to Moses and Jesus. So I guess that invalidates Islam... you sure you want to go there? Plus, there's no evidence that the Bible was corrupted but the Quran was not.
ladenfuckedu, if you're not just a cowardly troll looking to get a rise out of people... why don't you come over to my inbox and discuss these issues like a mature adult? What have you got to lose? Or you can stay here and hide behind empty insults and profanity. Your choice!
There is a book called "The Lost Books of The Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden" that has many of the lost books within it. There is also "The Book of Mormon" which is scriptures found here in America, and "The dead sea scrolls."
ladenfuckedu, the Dead Sea Scrolls are not all on the internet. But for the price of a Quran (or cheaper) you can get a complete translation from any major bookstore. You can also get it at any major library. Many translations exist, including by non-Christians. Enjoy! If Jesus was created by the Romans, then Muslims are just as stupid as you're saying Christians are, laden. Please debate me over PM!
Muslims misunderstand the Bible. They confused paraclete with ahmad. How else do you explain it? God spoke in riddles in the OT too, read the visions of the prophets and the poetry of proverbs and psalms.
Muslims did understand bible...And if u ask me who follow the the teaching's of jesus- then I must say Muslims are far ahead rather then christians.
But Again Many years past...why people believe in God...I really don't understand. I read all the so called books, even look here I;m watching a biblical video!
But still I can't see a single evidence that there is a GOD.
ladenfuckedu, you're welcome to debate me over private message. I'm curious to learn why you think Muslims understand the bible and especially the teachings of Jesus best. If you don't believe there's a God, fine, but how is reading a book going to prove that to you? It's a faith claim.
I'm just curious as to what facts you have that I don't, that makes you believe what you do. So please, share with me... PM.
Muslims belittle non-Muslims all the time (take a look at youtube!) I don't see them being punished. But if a Muslim, ex-Muslim or Muslim critic does, he gets a fatwa or a mob against him. It's not fair to kill people for disagreement or even mockery.
Imagine Muhammad in Jesus' place. What would he have done? Their characters are so very different. Jesus seems the better model, unless you think having a lot of people dead, piling on the war booty and slaves and material wealth is really more important than being a pious worshiper of God.
Sorry for the harshness, but I hope I made my point.
It's not about the harshness, it's about the misconceptions. I invite you to read what all the historians that have said POSITIVE things about Mohammed have said, instead of those negative that stick. You have been so busy trying to find reasons to refute me that you fail to look at Islam in the light as a whole. My main reason for debate is wisdom and to make an impact on someone's life perhaps, but not doing so without learning something myself and trying to spread the good word.
But next to the positives about Muhammad, you also have the negatives.. played up in Islam's own writings! Next to Jesus, he's a barbarian.
People say good things about Alexander the Great and Naploean too. That doesn't mean they were moral exemplars. They were just good at what they did, and if you strip away the barbarism, they have a few admirable qualities.
It's not as if Jesus could not have done this. The followers of Simon bar Kokhba claimed him to be the Messiah and waged war, and won! Even in Jesus time, the Sikari and the Zealots existed and were itching to fight the Romans. Jesus could have had his followers assasinate the Sadducees and Pharisees that were his opponents. Why not?
Jesus taught a better way and showed a better example than Muhammad. Is the lesser of two evils that people should be dead or slaves, rather than allow them to refuse or mock Islam? Whether or not they were "random" Muhammad shed the blood of many people and had many people killed. That puts Jesus above him.
So by your reasoning, hitler was the absolute worst who ever lived? I'm sure he was a horribly man, but I'm not sure I would say that. What of a man that beats his children but has never killed anyone? Does that make him higher than a man who fights for his country? There is no hierarchy as you present it, and there is no rubric except a subjective one.
No, awful as he was, Stalin and Mao were much worse, on the scale of human suffering they caused. I don't look to any of them as moral exemplars or religious leaders. Hitler loved small dogs and he had a wife he loved dearly. That doesn't mean I can't point out that he was also a mass murdering bigot. He's lower, because he attacked and he enslaved.
Jesus is superior to all these folks, why can't you get that?
If you are talking about "those which your right hand possesses" this is not "prisoners." These are special cases and I'll send you a wikipedia link of all this information.
What did the Muslims do? They captured people and made them into slaves. And then you can rape your slaves. If they get pregnant, you can't sell them, but must take care of the babies. Marry them later if you want to.
I'll take a scholarly source if you don't mind...
No offense, but we both know wikipedia is not reliable. I'm sure a bunch of Muslims patrol that page to make sure it's as flattering as possible to their prophet. Show me scholarly links instead or explain the Quranic/hadith references.
I'd treat the prisoners as humanely as possible and when the war is over, I'd have them pardoned and released. No need to make them into slaves or murder them. Why would my people retaliate? Why would my economy collapse? That's ridiculous. There's no need for slave labor, you can hire them as free men or send them home in peace.
Funny thing you say that: There is NO LEGAL SYSTEM IN THE WORLD TODAY THAT TREATS PRISONERS BETTER THAN HOW MUSLIMS SHOULD. I'm not saying this as a defence, it is a fact really. Go look at hadiths on how prisoners of war should be treated and get back to me.
But if that's the case, we can't look to Muhammad for an example of the best treatment of prisoners. His practices might have seemed better to people in ancient arabia, but by today's standards (Geneva convention) they're barbaric. Did Muhammad not live up to the standards of Islam? If so, why should we follow his example?
My point, satanicaa, is that if we want the best model of a holy and pure person to emulate, we can do no better than Jesus. Muhammad seems like a quite inadequate substitute. Mercy on prisoners is better than enslaving OR killing them. If I were captured in war, I'd rather my captors follow the Geneva conventions than the Quran. And I'd rather they follow the example of Jesus than the example of Moses.
I have alread confirmed Islam believes all the prophets have made mistakes, because they are human and only Allah is perfect. Bring me something that says Mohammed (PBUH) SINNED (ITHIM in arabic).
If "thanb" is not sin, then how do you explain Suras 3:11, 16; 5:18, 49; 6:6; 7:100, 8:52, 54; 9:102? It seems that God punishes "thanb" severally! It might as well be sin, if God will destroy you for it. No wonder Muhammad asked for forgiveness from his "thanb!"
Well, it is possible that thanb could mean both fault and sin, but I will check it out. This would make sense, as if you look at the A.Yusuf Ali translation you will notice "sin" used for the references you gave me and "fault" for the ones on Mohammed. As for Jesus, is there any thanb Moses did in the Qur'an? How about David? We can't justify that just because the Qur'an doesn't say they had thanb that they didn't. Islam teaches all prophets are sinless, this is a fact of Islam.
The Quran is a miracle? People can say the same about the Bible if they want to or any religious book. Just because it's in arabic doesn't make it special (no offense). Writing a book is something anyone can do, whereas not everyone can heal people, raising from the dead, etc.
satanicaa, what evidence do you have that those verses don't refer to all Jews and Christians? So are some Jews and Christians who do not embrace Islam going to heaven then?
Why have Muslims historically interpreted those verses to say that it's proper to restrict and tax Christians and Jews (when not fighting them to conquer them of course) until they embrace Islam?
You see: Moses came with a message and was amongst the 124k prophets. The Jews who embraced his message go to heaven according to Islam. Jesus according to Islam came with a message as well, and those that embraced it go to heaven. After the comming of Islam, however, we say it superceded other religions and became the only religion worthy for God. You are referring to 9:29, but the main reason Jizya (tax) was introduced is from hadiths not the Qur'an.
But basically satanicaa, if people follow the message of Christianity, they go to hell, because you say Jesus' message was "lost" and corrupted immediately in the lifetime of his first followers. Same with Jews. Otherwise you'll have to admit the Bible is not corrupt, and as a result, the Quran must be wrong, because it disagrees with the Bible.
If Islam supercedes Christianity and Judaism, why don't you become Bahai? Because that supercedes Islam, according to them.
It's not just about what supercedes. Did Mohammed work miracles? We say he did and we don't believe Christ made the universe. To find the prophesies of Mohammed just google it or youtube it. If you don't find any you find are useful, tell me and I will give you citations. Even if you don't believe the Qur'an is from God, you must explain the scientific and mathematical miracles of it. Until then, enjoy the analysis =).
But the Quran says that Muhammad's "miracle" was that Quran. Where does it say that he did miracles? If these accounts are not in the Quran, how can you be sure they are accurate?
I'd like you to show me. I don't really have time to do a research project on the alleged miracles of Muhammad right now. You claimed it... you provide the evidence.
Well we already both agreed that he made the moon break in half according to the Qur'an correct? So that's a miracle is it not? I will send u a website I just searched randomly and got out of the air on a few of the prophesies. Bear in mind, some muslims see things where they shouldn't, and so some are bent to portray a truth, but many are not.
It doesn't matter how many people said good things about Muhammad, it doesn't erase the bad things he's recorded as doing by his biographers, the Quran and the hadith. Do Muslims pretend he didn't do these things, or do they just not know of them? Can they justify them? Let's see.
the Qur'an was talking about a specific people of Jews and Christians, and this message was not one that engulfed all of people of the book (read v.1-29). It is safe to say that in any war, the prisoners are not going to be expecting candy. Islam actually gives them the freedom of semi-autonomy more than that of the OT and prisoners today. This is evident in Ottoman history (though it didn't follow perfect shari'a as evident went looking at the Millet system).
If people followed the Geneva conventions, that would be great. The example from Muhammad is that when you capture people, they either embrace Islam or they are enslaved or killed. How is that "better" than the Bible? Jesus taught mercy and forgiveness, and prayer for one's enemies. If you say that's not how to treat people today, satanicaa, that's cool, but how do you justify what Muhammad did as a model?
No, the example of Mohammed was when you capture people they are enslaved, which is much more sane and sensible than the stories in the Bible. I can't remember the verses from the top of my head but I am refering to the wars in Deutoronomy I believe in which EVERYTHING IS JUST MASSACRED AND NOBODY IS SPARED. Be more specific about what about Mohammed I have to justify.
Wait, so the bible portrays people being killed or enslaved in the OT. Muhammad does the same.
But you bypass Jesus who killed no one and enslaved no one. We follow Jesus, not Moses. So you'd follow a lesser man, and excuse his behavior because sinful people thousands of years before him did similar things? Muhammad showed mercy to some people, others he showed no mercy to. Jesus showed mercy to everyone while he was on earth.
Was Jesus ever in a war? Not that I remember. Sometimes killing is necessary, all religions agree to this its not a new concept its human law. If someone was to kill your wife, you would rather that person dead obviously. The LESSER OF TWO EVILS is what is preached. There is no connection between self defence and mercy. Mohammed (PBUH) didn't go on random killing sprees. Prove me wrong please, it's a dare =)
No, Jesus was not in a war, but why not? He could have been, if he had wanted to (as Muhammad did). Killing might sometimes be necessary, but is it justifiable because someone insulted you or refused to convert to your religion? Or because you wanted their wife?
Mohammed didn't and you have no proof of this. Show me evidence: "Killing might sometimes be necessary, but is it justifiable because someone insulted you or refused to convert to your religion? Or because you wanted their wife?"
You are insulting all muslims for being naive by making these claims XSC3. You are insulting great men as Michael Hart, Bernard Shaws, Ghandi by making these claims. All these people stand up for Mohammed, I'm curious to know why people tend to be so bias against him.
It doesn't matter how "scientific" Islam was (it still gets plenty wrong). We're talking about the morality of its leader vs. Jesus and the example they set for the rest of us humans. I understand WHY people use terrorist attacks. That doesn't make it morally acceptable.
violence or slavery us the trade mark of Jewish and Christian religion...And As far as Iknow not ISLAM. I read Quran; and found no verse which support's these funny alligations,in fact I found ISLAM is the most logical one-IF THERE IS A GOD(Which my mind just cannot accept).
Muslims have practiced slavery for centuries, ladenfuckedu. Read the Quran, there's directives for the proper treatment of slaves in there and in the Hadith (as the Quran is not the only source of authority for the vast majority of Muslims). Again, I welcome you to debate these and other issues with me civilly and rationally over private message, if you think you can stick to the facts.
I also wouldn't consider it a "privilege" for captured women to be forced to marry their Muslim captors or become their slaves...
And having to pay a tax just because you're not Muslim isn't fair either. Better than being killed, but not exactly a high standard that surpasses today!
If its better than being killed you're saying its better than the stories and choices in the Bible. Also, please think outside the box with me for a second: if you were at war and you won, what would you have the ones captured do? If you leave them alone (as Mohammed did in the case of Mecca) then there is a chance your own people will retaliate in disappointment and your economy will fall to shambles. Gathering a workforce is the only safe alternative.
Think, my friend, think. I've not insisted on anything without much unbias research on the subject, and thus consider myself a revert in a sense. All these critical topics of Islam; Polygamy, war, terrorism, can all be refuted by simple logic and simple understanding of nature human tendancy. As I said, I am a pharmacy major and a scientist at heart, I believe this is what I'm good at =)
Natural human tendency can't be used to justify any actions though...
Polygamy, war and terrorism are not justifiable on these grounds, unless you think morality is determined by human desire only. I would condemn those things. If you do as well, then we agree. But how can someone justify them on religious grounds? By saying "our prophet did it, so it's okay" but then how can they say they're morally superior to Christians?
I agree, nothing is justifiable on grounds of religion alone. However, the Qur'an says THINK use your mind, and go to people who know. Go look at the amount of men/women ratio in the united states. Go look at WHY people are using terrorist activities (although Islam is never ok with killing innocent people). Go look at these things objectively what have you, and then make your conclusions. Go to the studies and the statistics and the science and see if Islam supports it or not.
You can THINK sure, but if you question Islam, violence or slavery may be in your future. That's the trouble. It seems that Muhammad and his men were all to quick to bring out the weapons when they weren't be "respected" or agreed with (sure, before they took over Mecca it was more about "peace peace" but once he got a taste of power, boom, seems the gloves are off).
So why didn't Jesus raise an army, attack the Romans, and after he wins the battle, force the prisoners to accept Christianity or die, or else become his slaves, then use the captured Roman women as sex slaves and force others to marry him and his disciples? He would have been following the example of Muslims!
According to us Jesus was a prophet. Prophets do as they are told for not necessarily known reasons, I'm sure you understand this even by thinking Jesus is a deity. However, you are making claims you cannot support and I will have to charge you on this: "So why didn't Jesus raise an army, attack the Romans..." I want you to show me hadiths where it says force of marriage is ok or to validate your claims in any way, so far you have been alot of talk about the prophet but no proof
If I have an army, and I attack your people and win, take you captive, make you my slave, and then ask you to marry me... what power do you have to say "no"? You may be killed or have a very hard life if you refuse, so most people will say "yes." I consider that a "forced" marriage. Plus if they're underage, they aren't in a position to argue.
All the verses were there and nothing was left out except with a consensus. We know all the verses are there because it was almost of the same generation as the prophet and we have witnesses of the prophet and reciters of the prophet to personally testify. It cannot compare to the structure of the Bible's compilation.
Why? The NT was almost the same generation of Jesus' first followers too. We also have the witness of the Apostolic and Church Fathers who testify to its truth.
And yet there are Bibles that have different content. If this was so the case, why the big disagreements with the last 6 books of the Catholic Bible? If translations don't really matter, why do Christians insist their Bible is the best? In many instances scholars have simply said "THIS BIBLE NEEDS REVISION". Does this ever happen with the Qur'an? Christians are utterly confused, and this is to the good profit of the publishers. Do you admit that this is a major flow of money?
You're confused. Arguing over translations of the Bible is like arguing over translations of the Quran. Do you say because translations of the Quran don't agree and need revision that the Quran is corrupt and that you need a new revelation? No. So why say that about the Bible?
A major flow of money? Sort of like the religious tax that Muslims collect from non-Muslims? Millions of bibles are given away for free too, you know. Nobody is forced to buy new translations if they don't want to.
Everyone in Mecca has a free qur'an that doesn't say anything =P. Nobody is forced, but why would they not? It registers in their mind as the latest edition of Gods word, whether that's true or not. I quote my friend for saying "if english is good enough for Jesus its good enough for me" out of ignorance. Do you suppose all the people in the western world know they're reading a misprint of the word of God if it was a misprint of the bible? I doubt it.
Non-Muslims aren't even allowed to set foot in Mecca are they? (or some nutjob like Osama will try to have them killed)
Sure Muslims believe the Quran is God's word, just like other people believe their holy books are inspired. Doesn't mean any of them are right. Islam is cultural for millions of Muslims, they practice because they were raised, everyone around them does, and if they ever tried to convert, they could be killed.
I don't know of a single bible out there that has a New Testament with "different content" than another. Do you know of any such bible? The disputed books that Catholics and traditional Christianity has always regarded as inspired, are part of the OT, not the NT. The hadith are disputed, and different sects of Islam have different interpretations. But I'm saying that even if you were to exclude the deuterocanon ("apocrypha") the teachings about Jesus would not change, since they're NT.
If Muslims also believe in resurrection, why would they find reports of dead people rising from the grave (in body, in spirit or both) "questionable", satanicaa?
There were probably a few Gnostics who survived from those early times, but you would in no way consider them even close to Islam. Even the small Ebionite heresy, who believed Jesus was only a man, believed that he BECAME GOD at his baptism. Or Arius who believed Jesus was a lesser god, created by the Father at some time early in the history of the cosmos.
But today I know of no Christian (or Christian majority country) where you can be killed for converting to Islam (but the reverse is true for several countries from Islam-->Christianity).
But you're asking me to basically assume that history was lost, and reconstructed supernaturally by a man six centuries later, and the fact that his new message contradicts the old one is to be held as proof that he's right over previous ones, and I'm to reject any future revelations after him. Okay, but how then can a Muslim argue that this is all reasonable, logical, etc.?
Yes, ofcourse it seems illogical! Excuse me for being so bland about the whole thing but hopefully I have a video in mind that will be more focused on the "proofs" of this. It is obviously all subjective anyway, but it will probably be better than what i've said anyway.
The thing is, when comparing beliefs, satanicaa, you're asking me to accept certain things on faith, over certain things I as a Christian would take on faith.
Is the Quran stands against divergence... then you have a problem. What if nobody follows it? The Muslims don't seem to be as there are many sects of Islam that disagree with each other. So even if the Quran is perfect, Islam as a religion has not followed it.. (or at least some Muslims are not, and how do we know which Muslim sect is correct?)
Whether people follow it is another story. I preach what I believe is the truth, that Islam is perfect and muslims are corrupting its name. We know where the truth lies simply by looking at what evidence we have, the Qur'an and hadith. If muslims don't follow that, there is a problem with them as they are contradicting their own faith.
For example, NOI (nation of Islam) reveres a man to be the messiah, and think that there will not be a physical ressuruction, and think that black people will go to heaven first. This is in obvious contradiction with Islamic teachings. People do follow it, but rarely do you have a government that follows nothing but the Shari'a laws. As I said, just because muslims kill in the name of Allah for invalid reasons is not a reason to hate Islam.
Btw, satanicaa, there are several sites that document the contradicting passages in the Quran. I will warn you though that most of them are "anti-muslim" pages, and even atheist pages. But the point should suffice that if you just look, you see contradictions. I have heard Muslims explain these as the most recent revelations "correct" the earlier ones. But they don't deny that the contradictions exist.
I have seen these websites, and I know all their pitiful arguments. My 12 year old nephew can refute them, it is sad that such accusations are even being tried by muslims.
I'm not interested in what a website says about Islam. I want you to point out contradictions that you feel disprove Islam and that way I can answer your claims. I can point 1mil contradictions in the Bible, but half of them could easily be eliminated in the light of context. If you feel I've been biasly saying the Qur'an is perfect and ignoring the contradictions, please try me.
If you want to say that the other messages were corrupt fine. But you can't say "well God HAD to send the Quran, so it must be true, because the other messages were corrupt." By that logic, the Quran will be or has been corrupted, and another messenger must be sent with another message to correct the Quran (Bahai, perhaps? Nation of Islam?). If you say "well God supernaturally kept the Quran perfect" then why not keep the Bible perfect?
He identifies himself with the figure of Daniel's prophecy and the other Messianic prophecies. He says he existed before Abraham. Jehovah's Witnesses say that all the other Christians on earth are not Christians at all, but only they are the true Christians. But their beliefs keep changing and they didn't exist before 1860.
No, the "Son of Man" and "Son of God" are used in a special way to refer to the Messiah, and the divine one that sits at the right hand of God (and is one with God, who appears as an angel or a human being). Jesus uses "I AM" to refer to himself. He says he's equal to the Father and that seeing him one sees the Father.
Muhammad can say whatever he wants after the fact, but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus already taught himself to be divine, and his followers taught he was divine. Six hundred years later some "prophet" comes along and says he was not divine... what are we do to, but assume that this is a false prophet?
I understand why people would make this inference, but then I can twist around what you said earlier: why would God allow billions of people to be decieved? I've heard radical notions like Mohammed is devil inspired, and honestly these are cheap shots. Why would someone who is devil inspired be so against the devil? I've heard notions of Mohammed being labeled as crazy or insane or a liar, but these can all be answered by simple logic.
Well what are the choices... IF (and you have faith, so this is a hypothetical for you), Muhammad was NOT a prophet of God, then what would you conclude? He was a false prophet. So either he made it all up, somebody put words into his mouth that he never said or intended (ie: corrupted), he was crazy, or maybe he had a demon.
The same would be true of Jesus. If he was not the Son of God, then what he says and does in the NT shows him to be something less. A liar, a crazy man, or maybe a demoniac. Of course you might also say he never lived (historians disagree) or that his message was corrupted.
This is true, but the difference is all these false accusations directed at Mohammed are some of the most outrageous accusations and ignorant accusations I've ever heard. It's like calling a man bad for being accustomed to urinate on the street if thats what his homeland taught. The west can't deferentiate between a wrong and a cultural difference. Also, who is to say what is right and wrong? This plays into subjectivity.
Did Paul know this was happening to his letters? The answer is no to that. Since he did not, doesn't this serve as somewhat of a contradiction? If his letters were included shouldn't all his words and works?
>>>Did Paul know this was happening to his letters? The answer is no to that. Since he did not, doesn't this serve as somewhat of a contradiction? If his letters were included shouldn't all his words and works?
So what? God knew, and God inspired him. Do you think Muhammad knew what people would do with his Quran and Hadith?
Only the letters of Paul that were inspired need be included. Ever word he ever spoke in his life was not inspired, just as not everything Muhammad uttered was prophecy.
Actually, Mohammed DID know and God knew also. Evidence of this is very clear in the Qur'an and the hadith: there is a reason why Mohammed made sure nobody drew his picture, because of fear he would be worshipped like Jesus! There's a reason why there was a powerful repeating message for muslims not to diverge in their religion and to stay united and listen to only the Qur'an and sunna (hadith).
What's funny is that there were Christian iconoclasts in various periods (and still today even), and yet ALL of them worship Jesus as the Son of God. So aniconism does not ensure that Jesus will not be worshipped. Unlike Muhammad, Jesus himself made himself equal to God. If he was right, then Christians are right to worship him.
Well we will go into if he did or not into more details. We muslims say one thing: if he said he was God, then we will worship him. We say Jesus (PBUH) would never lie, and as Mohammed (PBUH) was known as "alsiddiq" or the honest, we believe Jesus to have the same attribute. The Qur'ans standpoint on divergence from religion is very clear: it should not be tolerated. The reasons are obvious and evident.
There's no record of Jesus claiming NOT to be God until the Quran was written. There's plenty of statements of his own six hundred years before Islam equating himself with divinity, and everyone up to Muhammad either said he was divine or a liar/lunatic/demoniac.
Jesus never said he was or wasn't as far as I have concluded. Inferences have been made in order for his statement to look like he is God. Again, if I was God, I would send messangers to speak the plain truth, so that there would be nothing hidden. Either you follow me or you don't. There is a difference between having faith in the unseen and tricking people into it. This goes into the context of "I and my father are one".
Jews ask Jesus basically are you the Christ? If you are tell us plainly. And they were right to question him in that respect. If God wanted a message to cross, would he not make it clear? Why would God use trickery in language to make claims? Why wouldn't God say I AM GOD WORSHIP ME as he does in the Qur'an AND the Torah? This is the obvious message of God, and if Jesus had a hard time phrasing it that way, I understand why someone would have a hard time believing he is God.
Well one explanation is that he would say he was divine while still respecting the divine name by not pronouncing it directly (Ie: saying "I'm Yahweh!"). The reaction of his audience is to accuse him of blasphemy and pick up stones, get angry and say he's making himself equal to God, etc. Why would they react that way if he was just speaking in obscure metaphors? These folks are Torah scholars that he's pissing off too.
Oh no, it obviously appeared that he was equating himself to God. But he then corrects their philosophy in the next verses. Everything in due context indeed.
Jesus (PBUH) was one of the greatest Jewish scholars. He understood what was the Torah in and out, but how? By reading and studying, not as a phenomenon. As you said, in "divine form" Jesus would know all languages, but as a human he spoke a language which is altogether useless today? Why didn't he speak and come to a people that would preserve the language and have his words exactly as they were said instead as Mohammed did? I'm sure God would have wanted that as a clear message.
Christians would say that Jesus' words WERE preserved, regardless of what language he spoke (and last I checked, most people today don't speak 7th century Arabic, and lots of people can't read it either), so there was no need to rely on a 7th century Arab "prophet" to translate, and give us "new revelations" of things nobody ever heard Jesus say before, that contradicted what he previously said (and even secular scholars will take the traditions about Jesus in the NT over the Quran's any day).
Actually, I can read 7th century Arabic, and everyone who can read arabic can =). Interestingly enough, poems before Mohammed are still available today and they're just exquisite. The arabic language at the time of Mohammed (PBUH) was far more advanced then what it is today, simply because it has now been condensed and simplified, but this doesn't mean it is impossible to read or understand by any means.
We both know that transitioning from one language to another is impossible, so how/why do Christians make this claim? I will need an explanation. Furthermore, in order for you to say that Mohammed said Jesus said things he never said, you would have to also say every single word of Jesus was recorded. If this was the case then I suggest you look for a Bible with more volume, as no red letter Bible has enough red letters to fill even a large pamphlet.
What did Jesus say in the Qur'an that OBVIOUSLY conradicts something in the Bible? Jesus really didn't say much in record of the Qur'an, but I want to see some examples specifically.
Well, 5:116, Jesus is quoted as saying that he never said for men to take himself and Mary as two gods to be worshiped besides Allah. Presumably this is to 'correct' what Christians believed, but this is a misunderstanding. Christians don't believe Mary is divine, nor worship her, nor do they consider Jesus as a seperate god, but the one God himself. So what he said was true, but it indicates a misunderstanding of Christianity by Muhammad.
Additionally, satanicaa, s. 61:6 has Jesus proclaiming that a new apostle will come after him and he will be named Ahmad. This is in clear contradiction to Jesus in the Gospels where he says he and the Father will send the HOLY SPIRIT (the Paraclete) not another human apostle, much less one named "Ahmad" (or Muhammad). Jesus never called himself the "apostle of God" but rather "the Son of Man" and the "Son of God."
So you mean to tell me that every single word of Jesus Christ (PBUH) is in the Bible? If you are to tell me that, I want some proof. The Qur'an never says that WHAT JESUS MEANT BY AHMAD WAS PARACLETE, no never. Muslims are inferring that by means of deduction and common sense. Jesus apparently, if he is God, is one that spoke in riddles, and this is a clear contradiction to the God of the Qur'an and OT.
No, not every single word, but I don't think his words would be lost for six centuries only to appear in the Quran, do you? Why would Jesus say something that contradicted himself? Did he have "Satanic Verses" like Muhammad? Not even our heretics say anything close to what you say about Jesus.
If a woman can bear God's child/God himself or a Man-God or a God-Man then there is no question about whether she is considered mere mortal. Do you mean to tell me all Christians believe Mary is hardly anything special? The verse can be interpreted in multiple ways, one being that God said he and Mary are not God, another saying that people took them as pure God substitutes. This is no more a misunderstanding as is the book of Genesis on creation of the world.
Catholics and Orthodox (the original traditional Christians) believe Mary was sinless. They both believe Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
Neither worship Mary. No Christians believe Mary is divine in any way shape or form. She's just a sinless virgin human that God chose to carry Christ in her womb without intercourse.
You heard wrong, joseraguilar. Catholics and Orthodox do NOT worship Mary. Catholics and Orthodox ARE Christians, and in fact, the original Christians. All the Christians groups that exist today are derived in some manner from these churches or their beliefs.
And it's also important to remember, that while several modern liberal scholars (ie: the 200 of the "Jesus Seminar") think the Gospel of Thomas is probably better than the Gospel of John, they don't actually hold to a belief in "divine inspiration" (but rather "historical accuracy")... that is their opinion, and apart from the Gnostic heretics who wrote it, no early Christians ever considered the Gospel of Thomas to be inspired scripture.
Of course Islam runs into a problem, because it can't say that Jesus was killed (and willingly too). What I want to know is why didn't Allah bring Jesus back to earth after rescuing him and let him continue preaching and so forth? Why wait another 600+ years for a less worthy man to finish the job?
It's not that Islam CAN'T say that Jesus was killed, the Qur'an just says that he hasn't. Jesus (PBUH) himself says in John that there is still much for them to learn, but they cannot learn it yet, and that that is the comforter's job. Whether Mohammed is a less worthy man is subjective, and we obviously believe he's the best man for the job. Jesus is going to come back in his second comming, but the reason is different from Christianity
But why can't Islam admit Jesus was killed? Jesus himself said that prophets were killed. The "comforter" is the Holy Spirit (a divine being, the 3rd person of the Trinity). The disciples received this Spirit at Pentecost. Muhammad wouldn't be born for another six centuries...
Islam admits prophets were killed also. We say that there were about 140k prophets to this day, and many were killed. But JESUS was not according to Islam. Can you show me the verses where the disciples recieved the spirit? There's nothing to admit to, we just don't believe in a certain BELIEF that you have. There is not enough proof to assert to him being alive or him being dead.
Okay. I was told that the reason Muslims do not admit Jesus died, is because "Allah would never allow one of his Messengers to be killed." I guess those Muslims spoke inaccurately...
Jesus Christ did NOT DIE on the Cross..
WorldsGreatestMystic 1 month ago
@nabuchiznassar a true book from God will not have so many different varying eye witness an accounts, opinions, heck even the disciples don't agree with one another, and to make matters worst, the founder of Christianity or Paul was not even around during the time of Jesus yet he claim to be inspired, don't you think if anyone should be inspired it would be those who were the closest to Jesus like aka his disciples and eye-witnesses!!!! face the fact, even the last supper is very contradict.
dablkfabio 1 month ago
@nabuchiznassar Every religion has books of things that r coming true,even our prophet mention many things of prophesy like music in every house, murder, earthquake, diseases, people going to space, all in the hadith 100%, so don't tell me that prophesy is what makes the bible anything authentic, no its clearly obvious, the bible has errors, its an oral tradition that were written down by some priest from what they remembered but not exact actual words or account of Jesus.Who are the authors?
dablkfabio 1 month ago
When you consider that the canonical gospels don't agree with one another, it should become painfully clear to any christian watching this that in fact we don't know anything about Jesus for a fact. Therefore why believe he is divine, and why worship him?
zacthebold 1 month ago
@zacthebold many non judaio prophets have been sent to pagan people, examples? budha to indians, where the refused his message and he subsequintly moved to china, confucious to the asians, gandhi again to the indians, and its been said nabuchiznasar felt the presence of god, joseph was sent to egypt where the hebrews where hated, daniel to babylon where they had no problem polverizing any non worshippers of the mighty king, and even socrates to the ancient greeks.
nabuchiznasar 1 month ago
If the bible was the Book of God there would not be all these books, come on, it seem almost like a fairy tail, every book has a version of there own story, the church decided what to add and subtract and not God!!! Whats next the book of Mike, and Stanley, Denis, etc... There is so many contradictions even in the old and new testaments its enough to know this was written by man and not of God, just Oral stories created to suit there belief. OOH I WANT MY BOOK INCLUDED, NO MINE, NO MINE, OK! smh
dablkfabio 2 months ago
@dablkfabio well if the church tampered with the word of god then their blood is upon their head, coz it clearly says at the end of the good book that nothing should be added or substracted from what is written...look at all the signs around you and tell me all this wasnt prophecised thousands of years ago...either take the message or leave it that way at least u can argue ignorance on ur day of judgement.
nabuchiznasar 1 month ago
Will they ever find the Book of BOB!!!!!
trianni123 5 months ago 8
owel...back to sum porn lol
DevarDLee 5 months ago
another Catholic conspiracy lie to answer the truth. clearly, it defends the "church" from the truth that is unfolding in this end time. The beast have been uncovered.
1467ization 8 months ago
Am I the only one, who is personally building a hypothesis from a non religious point of view that everything is symbolic. That the banned texts could point toward what the Church did not want us to realise? Could Jesus represent something within all of us from a spiritual view point? hmmm
30rone 11 months ago 3
@30rone not every writing is spiritual.
DiegoRmadrid 6 months ago
@DiegoRmadrid There is nothing in this world that is not spiritual, its the very essence of everything and that includes positive or negative. My own opinion of course! :)
30rone 6 months ago
@30rone well yeah but its not like its secret keeping you can find these books and read them its your faith that determines what you believe
DiegoRmadrid 6 months ago
@DiegoRmadrid I am not saying its secret keeping, more a case of leaving out what does not fit their "Truths" and control systems. If you have the eyes to see, you will find the information and then can only but use the material in a way that fits your own personal truths and observations. In other words, what I am trying to say is, I only know what I personally experience and observe and this trumps all so called truths pushed by establishments... Thanks for the thought provoking chat Diego :)
30rone 6 months ago
A bigger picture being painted behind the scenes.
Severe777 11 months ago
What I don't get is why they ain't showing all of this banned material? There's been banned stories saying "When Adam and Eve saw them, their creators, they loathed them. Since they were beastly forms" then there's another verse saying "They served him out of fear". Where's those texts? I'm not a believer in the bible, I just want to find out what the real story is behind it. I personally think it's a conspiracy.
Severe777 11 months ago
@miamileeds Yes.Well the Gnostics believed that Yahweh is NOT the father of Jesus. NOT the father. So who is? Maybe to Yahweh Jesus as well as self actualized divine man who is the beast in Revelations is a threat. Perhaps this is why obedience, terror and shame are what he uses to control man since the Garden. When one reads the OT it sounds like a threat. Makes you wonder why God is always so angry and jealous. Maybe he's not God.
abby495 11 months ago
Haa Hell will be overcrowded with usurers in excretement. Not that I believe in advocating brimstone and fire but some avaricious conspiratory fux who oppose humanity and God should be thoroughly whipped with some electrical chords. Mind you this will take a few days so I hope there is a crew up to this task on the nether side.
abby495 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Revelation 10:11 And they say to me(John), "You must prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings."
Is John one of the witnesses?
Check out my favs, especially the one about the stars found in the bible. Pics in those videos of the Sun Moon and Stars are authentic and the end time is drawing. The stars seem to be 11 then 12 and then definitely7. Check out these symbols and signs from heaven.
themiraclesonearth 11 months ago
universal mercy, see? theres the answer
MrBillcale 1 year ago
After watching this documentary I must say I have learned so much more that makes me understand even more of what the Bible teaches.
eiroight 1 year ago
anyone know what the OWN stand for above jesus's head?? and i know its NWO backwards but i would be interested to know what it mean in the bible as i cant find anything on it :(
peace
monkee74 1 year ago
this woman should read the quranic hell
hannahr77 2 years ago
FYI: I read your bible torah, and all kind of religious books...I didn't find the word TRINITY in bible. I never saw any red letter bible where Jesus claimed to be a GOD...or told you to make Idol and Worship him. Can you show me a single verse?
I know you will put "I am" type of fogyish verses...But can you tell me Why the Basis Of Christianity is so vague and Why not So bold to announce.
If I don't understand trinity-Then it's your duty to make me understand the Trinity concept. Mail me.
javedmahmood 2 years ago 2
It was NOT written, it was DECIDED by the Council of Nicaea that only "trinity" characteristics can explain and link all the "allegations" made in the old scriptures in order to make it "logical".
shcheah 2 years ago 2
How can anyone believe in the bible....when the Church itself don't believe in the writers of the bible.
yo1o2eggs 3 years ago 10
@yo1o2eggs You don't believe in the church of this world but in the spiritual of the Divine ! Peace .
26mel1 7 months ago
@yo1o2eggs It is always hard to write the history of the remainders.
sinongkim 6 months ago
@yo1o2eggs thats why jesus says when u pray, go to your room, close ur door and pray to god alone, and when u fast make ur best attempts not to let people know u r fasting, do not test ur lord god, for even ur thoughts are open to the lord..churches are not perfect places, neither are priests perfect people, every 1 is scared of death including ur self, jesus clearly wasnt and thats why he was resurected.
nabuchiznasar 1 month ago
@nabuchiznasar Uh...I'm not afraid of death. I wasn't scared before I existed, why should I be scared when I cease to exist?
I'm an Atheist, I'm not convinced that there is a god. When people pray, you are only talking to yourself.
When you read the bible, keep this in mind, these are stories from the middle east at the time when there are no fact checkers. It has been translated over and over by MEN with their own flawed understanding and biases.
yo1o2eggs 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
banned from quran...
mohamed word,,,
Keep us on the right path. The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray. (1:6-7)
Muhammad was once asked if these words pertained to Jews and Christians. His response was, "Whom else?" (Bukhari 56:662).
MIRCAVA4EVER 3 years ago
METATRON יהוה
WyzardFilms 3 years ago
LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE HUMANS TOUCH THEY DISTORT
but this does not mean the basic message is wrong Christianity teaches us to Love our God n one another Christianity DOES NOT tell us to go to wars n kill people cause we want to steal their wealth on lies unfortunately the biggest loss of life on earth was commided by chriatians yet we accuse muslims n others for our crimes am sure Jesus has something to say when the time comes what a thought hitler stalin mousolini kaise n bush to face Jesus!
polygamous1 3 years ago 2
what is this documentary saying ? is it saying Christianity is False
dino01 3 years ago
The only book I found provides a comprehensive understanding of events past, present and future is the Holy Bible. The chief proponents of the diabolical "New World Order" are invariably members of secret societies (satanic) and are of Illumanati bloodlines (past 12/13 of US Presidents). Arrival of, planet Nibiru, discovered in 1983, NASA estimates to arrive our solar system 2012, with be devastating results.
All previous Bible Prophecy has been fulfilled and Jesus Christ never lies.
waketheoblivious 3 years ago
no its saying early church leaders left out important books while constructing the bible
gordonculp 2 years ago
As you wish, you get the last word in this thread. I'll respond to you in PM from now on. ;) I'm not being cowardly, pamuk7.
XSC3 3 years ago
I'm sorry to keep responding to you here pamuk7. Let us continue our conversation in PM. Our going back and forth is off topic for this thread and it's annoying to have to keep checking back here. Deal?
XSC3 3 years ago
pamuk7, do you know the names of all the memorizers and reciters of the Quran? Do you know the identities of all the scribes who wrote it down? If not, then your criticism of the New Testament isn't valid. Muslims claim that the Gospel (message of Jesus) was from God, but that the followers of Jesus corrupted it. I'm not sure if you believe the Bible was written down correctly and then changed or if it was recorded incorrectly in the first place. But you haven't shown evidence for either yet.
XSC3 3 years ago
That really doesn't matter. Any book can contain within it claims that what is being written is from God. Muslims make a big deal of claiming that the Quran is God's words and God's word only. You yourself believe that human beings can speak the words of God. So why is it a problem for you if it was "According to Matthew"? The Quran is "according to Muhammad" (or perhaps "Muhammad's reciters" is better) even if it doesn't have that explicitly as the first line.
XSC3 3 years ago
pamuk7, I sent you the links. It's much easier to post links in a PM because youtube doesn't like people posting URL's in comments.
XSC3 3 years ago
So my question for you is... how do you know that all the people who memorized, copied and compiled (and revised, like Uthman) the Quran were all supernaturally prevented by God from making any kinds of errors or corrupting it, pamuk7? Thank you, I'll check my inbox. No, I'm not an atheist. I'm challenging the notion that the Bible is corrupt but the Quran not only is perfect and not corrupt but could never be corrupted.
XSC3 3 years ago
I'll see what I can do... watch for a Private message from me soon, pamuk7.
XSC3 3 years ago
"but you cant currupt and change the hearts. Ameen"
I disagree, I think it's clear from history that you can. What you're really saying is that somehow the Muslim community was not subject to the same temptations and problems that the Jewish, Christian, and other communities were subject to. That's the only way you can make those absolutist claims stick, as I see it.
XSC3 3 years ago
So were all these 1000 people inspired by God also, pamuk7? If not, then it's possible some of them got it wrong. Were the scribes who then took dictation from these 1000 also inspired by God? If not, then mistakes could have been made. And so on and so forth, for all the scribes for the next 1400+ years. That's my point I was getting at. If you want to say the Quran today is perfect and uncorruptable, don't you have to believe that?
XSC3 3 years ago
The fact that people memorize the Quran has no bearing on the truth of its message, or whether it was truly from God or corrupted, pamuk7. I'm sure there are people who memorize Mao's Little Red Book as well. If Muhammad was unlettered, who wrote the Quran? Muhammad's followers? So how do you know they were uncorruptable as well? And the scribes who copied it for 1400 years? We've discovered different versions of the Quran, so copyist errors exist in it as well as any ancient document.
XSC3 3 years ago
We have bibles from before the time of Muhammad. Recently, ancient Qurans have been discovered that differ from modern Qurans in wide use by Muslims. Again, pamuk7, I'd love to debate these and other issues with you... send me a private message!
XSC3 3 years ago
pamuk7, if you'd like to debate me over private message I can show you plenty of contradictions in the Quran and skeptical criticism of it. My point was to ask you how you KNEW the the Quran was uncorrupted. I'm curious about the logic of God sending messages to humanity and them ALL being corrupted and forgotten EXCEPT the Quran (why didn't God make the previous messages uncorruptable? Why not give the Quran to Adam?).
XSC3 3 years ago
Just FYI, ladenfuckedu refused to debate me, and instead just threw a bunch of profanity out. Apparently his arguments aren't strong enough to defend in a rational dialog.
XSC3 3 years ago
pamuk7... you should see what the Mormons have to say about scriptures from God. They've got the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, all from the Prophet Joseph Smith! They don't recognize the Quran as inspired.
XSC3 3 years ago
"Allah says in the quran: (that woe to the hands that wrote) and added to the word of god thats what the bible is.."
If that's true, then the Quran should not have been written. After all, Muhammad admitted that the word of God was already given to Moses and Jesus. So I guess that invalidates Islam... you sure you want to go there? Plus, there's no evidence that the Bible was corrupted but the Quran was not.
XSC3 3 years ago
ladenfuckedu, if you're not just a cowardly troll looking to get a rise out of people... why don't you come over to my inbox and discuss these issues like a mature adult? What have you got to lose? Or you can stay here and hide behind empty insults and profanity. Your choice!
XSC3 3 years ago
There is a book called "The Lost Books of The Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden" that has many of the lost books within it. There is also "The Book of Mormon" which is scriptures found here in America, and "The dead sea scrolls."
usmartine 4 years ago
Is there any internet version of "The dead sea scrolls" NOOOOOOOOO!
Idiot's Jesus and Bible is created by romans.
ladenfuckedu 3 years ago
ladenfuckedu, the Dead Sea Scrolls are not all on the internet. But for the price of a Quran (or cheaper) you can get a complete translation from any major bookstore. You can also get it at any major library. Many translations exist, including by non-Christians. Enjoy! If Jesus was created by the Romans, then Muslims are just as stupid as you're saying Christians are, laden. Please debate me over PM!
XSC3 3 years ago
Muslims misunderstand the Bible. They confused paraclete with ahmad. How else do you explain it? God spoke in riddles in the OT too, read the visions of the prophets and the poetry of proverbs and psalms.
XSC3 4 years ago
XSC3
I disagree.
Muslims did understand bible...And if u ask me who follow the the teaching's of jesus- then I must say Muslims are far ahead rather then christians.
But Again Many years past...why people believe in God...I really don't understand. I read all the so called books, even look here I;m watching a biblical video!
But still I can't see a single evidence that there is a GOD.
ladenfuckedu 3 years ago
ladenfuckedu, you're welcome to debate me over private message. I'm curious to learn why you think Muslims understand the bible and especially the teachings of Jesus best. If you don't believe there's a God, fine, but how is reading a book going to prove that to you? It's a faith claim.
I'm just curious as to what facts you have that I don't, that makes you believe what you do. So please, share with me... PM.
XSC3 3 years ago
satanicaa,
Muslims belittle non-Muslims all the time (take a look at youtube!) I don't see them being punished. But if a Muslim, ex-Muslim or Muslim critic does, he gets a fatwa or a mob against him. It's not fair to kill people for disagreement or even mockery.
XSC3 4 years ago
Imagine Muhammad in Jesus' place. What would he have done? Their characters are so very different. Jesus seems the better model, unless you think having a lot of people dead, piling on the war booty and slaves and material wealth is really more important than being a pious worshiper of God.
Sorry for the harshness, but I hope I made my point.
XSC3 4 years ago
It's not about the harshness, it's about the misconceptions. I invite you to read what all the historians that have said POSITIVE things about Mohammed have said, instead of those negative that stick. You have been so busy trying to find reasons to refute me that you fail to look at Islam in the light as a whole. My main reason for debate is wisdom and to make an impact on someone's life perhaps, but not doing so without learning something myself and trying to spread the good word.
satanicaa 4 years ago
But next to the positives about Muhammad, you also have the negatives.. played up in Islam's own writings! Next to Jesus, he's a barbarian.
People say good things about Alexander the Great and Naploean too. That doesn't mean they were moral exemplars. They were just good at what they did, and if you strip away the barbarism, they have a few admirable qualities.
XSC3 4 years ago
It's not as if Jesus could not have done this. The followers of Simon bar Kokhba claimed him to be the Messiah and waged war, and won! Even in Jesus time, the Sikari and the Zealots existed and were itching to fight the Romans. Jesus could have had his followers assasinate the Sadducees and Pharisees that were his opponents. Why not?
XSC3 4 years ago
Jesus taught a better way and showed a better example than Muhammad. Is the lesser of two evils that people should be dead or slaves, rather than allow them to refuse or mock Islam? Whether or not they were "random" Muhammad shed the blood of many people and had many people killed. That puts Jesus above him.
XSC3 4 years ago
So by your reasoning, hitler was the absolute worst who ever lived? I'm sure he was a horribly man, but I'm not sure I would say that. What of a man that beats his children but has never killed anyone? Does that make him higher than a man who fights for his country? There is no hierarchy as you present it, and there is no rubric except a subjective one.
satanicaa 4 years ago
No, awful as he was, Stalin and Mao were much worse, on the scale of human suffering they caused. I don't look to any of them as moral exemplars or religious leaders. Hitler loved small dogs and he had a wife he loved dearly. That doesn't mean I can't point out that he was also a mass murdering bigot. He's lower, because he attacked and he enslaved.
Jesus is superior to all these folks, why can't you get that?
XSC3 4 years ago
Treatment of prisoners:
Quran:
Suras 4:26; 23:5-6; 33:50.
Hadith:
Sahih Bukhari, Vol 3, #432, Vol. 9, #506, Vol. 5, #637, Vol. 2, #3371, #3432;
Sunan of Abu Dawud, Vol 2. #2150, #2167
XSC3 4 years ago
If you are talking about "those which your right hand possesses" this is not "prisoners." These are special cases and I'll send you a wikipedia link of all this information.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Whom do you "possess" other than slaves?
What did the Muslims do? They captured people and made them into slaves. And then you can rape your slaves. If they get pregnant, you can't sell them, but must take care of the babies. Marry them later if you want to.
I'll take a scholarly source if you don't mind...
XSC3 4 years ago
No offense, but we both know wikipedia is not reliable. I'm sure a bunch of Muslims patrol that page to make sure it's as flattering as possible to their prophet. Show me scholarly links instead or explain the Quranic/hadith references.
XSC3 4 years ago
satanicaa:
I'd treat the prisoners as humanely as possible and when the war is over, I'd have them pardoned and released. No need to make them into slaves or murder them. Why would my people retaliate? Why would my economy collapse? That's ridiculous. There's no need for slave labor, you can hire them as free men or send them home in peace.
XSC3 4 years ago
Funny thing you say that: There is NO LEGAL SYSTEM IN THE WORLD TODAY THAT TREATS PRISONERS BETTER THAN HOW MUSLIMS SHOULD. I'm not saying this as a defence, it is a fact really. Go look at hadiths on how prisoners of war should be treated and get back to me.
satanicaa 4 years ago
But if that's the case, we can't look to Muhammad for an example of the best treatment of prisoners. His practices might have seemed better to people in ancient arabia, but by today's standards (Geneva convention) they're barbaric. Did Muhammad not live up to the standards of Islam? If so, why should we follow his example?
XSC3 4 years ago
I refuse to talk about Mohammed unless you bring concrete evidence for your claims.
satanicaa 4 years ago
The evidence I've quoted is from the Quran and hadith. What more do you want? Something from his biographers?
XSC3 4 years ago
My point, satanicaa, is that if we want the best model of a holy and pure person to emulate, we can do no better than Jesus. Muhammad seems like a quite inadequate substitute. Mercy on prisoners is better than enslaving OR killing them. If I were captured in war, I'd rather my captors follow the Geneva conventions than the Quran. And I'd rather they follow the example of Jesus than the example of Moses.
XSC3 4 years ago
Muhammad was a sinner according to the Quran: Suras 40:55, 47:19, 48:2.
XSC3 4 years ago
40:55: the word is THANB (fault) not ITHIM (sin)
47:19: the word is THANB (fault) not ITHIM (sin)
48:2: the word is THANB (fault) not ITHIM (sin)
I have alread confirmed Islam believes all the prophets have made mistakes, because they are human and only Allah is perfect. Bring me something that says Mohammed (PBUH) SINNED (ITHIM in arabic).
satanicaa 4 years ago
If "thanb" is not sin, then how do you explain Suras 3:11, 16; 5:18, 49; 6:6; 7:100, 8:52, 54; 9:102? It seems that God punishes "thanb" severally! It might as well be sin, if God will destroy you for it. No wonder Muhammad asked for forgiveness from his "thanb!"
What "thanb" was Jesus guilty of?
XSC3 4 years ago
Well, it is possible that thanb could mean both fault and sin, but I will check it out. This would make sense, as if you look at the A.Yusuf Ali translation you will notice "sin" used for the references you gave me and "fault" for the ones on Mohammed. As for Jesus, is there any thanb Moses did in the Qur'an? How about David? We can't justify that just because the Qur'an doesn't say they had thanb that they didn't. Islam teaches all prophets are sinless, this is a fact of Islam.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Moses was a murderer. Does your Quran record that? Or does it gloss over that historical fact?
David had a man killed to cover up adultery with that man's wife. Does your Quran gloss over that fact too?
So the Quran is incomplete...
So both of those men were sinners. Where did Jesus sin?
If all Prophets are sinless, what do you do about the many sins of Muhammad recorded in Islamic writings?
XSC3 4 years ago
The Quran is a miracle? People can say the same about the Bible if they want to or any religious book. Just because it's in arabic doesn't make it special (no offense). Writing a book is something anyone can do, whereas not everyone can heal people, raising from the dead, etc.
XSC3 4 years ago
satanicaa, what evidence do you have that those verses don't refer to all Jews and Christians? So are some Jews and Christians who do not embrace Islam going to heaven then?
Why have Muslims historically interpreted those verses to say that it's proper to restrict and tax Christians and Jews (when not fighting them to conquer them of course) until they embrace Islam?
XSC3 4 years ago
You see: Moses came with a message and was amongst the 124k prophets. The Jews who embraced his message go to heaven according to Islam. Jesus according to Islam came with a message as well, and those that embraced it go to heaven. After the comming of Islam, however, we say it superceded other religions and became the only religion worthy for God. You are referring to 9:29, but the main reason Jizya (tax) was introduced is from hadiths not the Qur'an.
satanicaa 4 years ago
But basically satanicaa, if people follow the message of Christianity, they go to hell, because you say Jesus' message was "lost" and corrupted immediately in the lifetime of his first followers. Same with Jews. Otherwise you'll have to admit the Bible is not corrupt, and as a result, the Quran must be wrong, because it disagrees with the Bible.
If Islam supercedes Christianity and Judaism, why don't you become Bahai? Because that supercedes Islam, according to them.
XSC3 4 years ago
It's not just about what supercedes. Did Mohammed work miracles? We say he did and we don't believe Christ made the universe. To find the prophesies of Mohammed just google it or youtube it. If you don't find any you find are useful, tell me and I will give you citations. Even if you don't believe the Qur'an is from God, you must explain the scientific and mathematical miracles of it. Until then, enjoy the analysis =).
satanicaa 4 years ago
But the Quran says that Muhammad's "miracle" was that Quran. Where does it say that he did miracles? If these accounts are not in the Quran, how can you be sure they are accurate?
I'd like you to show me. I don't really have time to do a research project on the alleged miracles of Muhammad right now. You claimed it... you provide the evidence.
XSC3 4 years ago
Well we already both agreed that he made the moon break in half according to the Qur'an correct? So that's a miracle is it not? I will send u a website I just searched randomly and got out of the air on a few of the prophesies. Bear in mind, some muslims see things where they shouldn't, and so some are bent to portray a truth, but many are not.
satanicaa 4 years ago
It doesn't matter how many people said good things about Muhammad, it doesn't erase the bad things he's recorded as doing by his biographers, the Quran and the hadith. Do Muslims pretend he didn't do these things, or do they just not know of them? Can they justify them? Let's see.
XSC3 4 years ago
the Qur'an was talking about a specific people of Jews and Christians, and this message was not one that engulfed all of people of the book (read v.1-29). It is safe to say that in any war, the prisoners are not going to be expecting candy. Islam actually gives them the freedom of semi-autonomy more than that of the OT and prisoners today. This is evident in Ottoman history (though it didn't follow perfect shari'a as evident went looking at the Millet system).
satanicaa 4 years ago
The Quran gives them more freedom than today?
If people followed the Geneva conventions, that would be great. The example from Muhammad is that when you capture people, they either embrace Islam or they are enslaved or killed. How is that "better" than the Bible? Jesus taught mercy and forgiveness, and prayer for one's enemies. If you say that's not how to treat people today, satanicaa, that's cool, but how do you justify what Muhammad did as a model?
XSC3 4 years ago
No, the example of Mohammed was when you capture people they are enslaved, which is much more sane and sensible than the stories in the Bible. I can't remember the verses from the top of my head but I am refering to the wars in Deutoronomy I believe in which EVERYTHING IS JUST MASSACRED AND NOBODY IS SPARED. Be more specific about what about Mohammed I have to justify.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Wait, so the bible portrays people being killed or enslaved in the OT. Muhammad does the same.
But you bypass Jesus who killed no one and enslaved no one. We follow Jesus, not Moses. So you'd follow a lesser man, and excuse his behavior because sinful people thousands of years before him did similar things? Muhammad showed mercy to some people, others he showed no mercy to. Jesus showed mercy to everyone while he was on earth.
XSC3 4 years ago
Was Jesus ever in a war? Not that I remember. Sometimes killing is necessary, all religions agree to this its not a new concept its human law. If someone was to kill your wife, you would rather that person dead obviously. The LESSER OF TWO EVILS is what is preached. There is no connection between self defence and mercy. Mohammed (PBUH) didn't go on random killing sprees. Prove me wrong please, it's a dare =)
satanicaa 4 years ago
No, Jesus was not in a war, but why not? He could have been, if he had wanted to (as Muhammad did). Killing might sometimes be necessary, but is it justifiable because someone insulted you or refused to convert to your religion? Or because you wanted their wife?
XSC3 4 years ago
Mohammed didn't and you have no proof of this. Show me evidence: "Killing might sometimes be necessary, but is it justifiable because someone insulted you or refused to convert to your religion? Or because you wanted their wife?"
You are insulting all muslims for being naive by making these claims XSC3. You are insulting great men as Michael Hart, Bernard Shaws, Ghandi by making these claims. All these people stand up for Mohammed, I'm curious to know why people tend to be so bias against him.
satanicaa 4 years ago
It doesn't matter how "scientific" Islam was (it still gets plenty wrong). We're talking about the morality of its leader vs. Jesus and the example they set for the rest of us humans. I understand WHY people use terrorist attacks. That doesn't make it morally acceptable.
XSC3 4 years ago
XSC3
violence or slavery us the trade mark of Jewish and Christian religion...And As far as Iknow not ISLAM. I read Quran; and found no verse which support's these funny alligations,in fact I found ISLAM is the most logical one-IF THERE IS A GOD(Which my mind just cannot accept).
ladenfuckedu 3 years ago
Muslims have practiced slavery for centuries, ladenfuckedu. Read the Quran, there's directives for the proper treatment of slaves in there and in the Hadith (as the Quran is not the only source of authority for the vast majority of Muslims). Again, I welcome you to debate these and other issues with me civilly and rationally over private message, if you think you can stick to the facts.
XSC3 3 years ago
I also wouldn't consider it a "privilege" for captured women to be forced to marry their Muslim captors or become their slaves...
And having to pay a tax just because you're not Muslim isn't fair either. Better than being killed, but not exactly a high standard that surpasses today!
XSC3 4 years ago
If its better than being killed you're saying its better than the stories and choices in the Bible. Also, please think outside the box with me for a second: if you were at war and you won, what would you have the ones captured do? If you leave them alone (as Mohammed did in the case of Mecca) then there is a chance your own people will retaliate in disappointment and your economy will fall to shambles. Gathering a workforce is the only safe alternative.
satanicaa 4 years ago
I didn't say it would be better to be killed, though some people would argue they'd rather die than live on as a slave.
Think outside the box? You're stuck in a box when you insist that Muhammad's choices were the best. I'd prefer Jesus' choices.
XSC3 4 years ago
Think, my friend, think. I've not insisted on anything without much unbias research on the subject, and thus consider myself a revert in a sense. All these critical topics of Islam; Polygamy, war, terrorism, can all be refuted by simple logic and simple understanding of nature human tendancy. As I said, I am a pharmacy major and a scientist at heart, I believe this is what I'm good at =)
satanicaa 4 years ago
Natural human tendency can't be used to justify any actions though...
Polygamy, war and terrorism are not justifiable on these grounds, unless you think morality is determined by human desire only. I would condemn those things. If you do as well, then we agree. But how can someone justify them on religious grounds? By saying "our prophet did it, so it's okay" but then how can they say they're morally superior to Christians?
XSC3 4 years ago
I agree, nothing is justifiable on grounds of religion alone. However, the Qur'an says THINK use your mind, and go to people who know. Go look at the amount of men/women ratio in the united states. Go look at WHY people are using terrorist activities (although Islam is never ok with killing innocent people). Go look at these things objectively what have you, and then make your conclusions. Go to the studies and the statistics and the science and see if Islam supports it or not.
satanicaa 4 years ago
You can THINK sure, but if you question Islam, violence or slavery may be in your future. That's the trouble. It seems that Muhammad and his men were all to quick to bring out the weapons when they weren't be "respected" or agreed with (sure, before they took over Mecca it was more about "peace peace" but once he got a taste of power, boom, seems the gloves are off).
XSC3 4 years ago
So why didn't Jesus raise an army, attack the Romans, and after he wins the battle, force the prisoners to accept Christianity or die, or else become his slaves, then use the captured Roman women as sex slaves and force others to marry him and his disciples? He would have been following the example of Muslims!
XSC3 4 years ago
According to us Jesus was a prophet. Prophets do as they are told for not necessarily known reasons, I'm sure you understand this even by thinking Jesus is a deity. However, you are making claims you cannot support and I will have to charge you on this: "So why didn't Jesus raise an army, attack the Romans..." I want you to show me hadiths where it says force of marriage is ok or to validate your claims in any way, so far you have been alot of talk about the prophet but no proof
satanicaa 4 years ago
If I have an army, and I attack your people and win, take you captive, make you my slave, and then ask you to marry me... what power do you have to say "no"? You may be killed or have a very hard life if you refuse, so most people will say "yes." I consider that a "forced" marriage. Plus if they're underage, they aren't in a position to argue.
XSC3 4 years ago
All the verses were there and nothing was left out except with a consensus. We know all the verses are there because it was almost of the same generation as the prophet and we have witnesses of the prophet and reciters of the prophet to personally testify. It cannot compare to the structure of the Bible's compilation.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Why? The NT was almost the same generation of Jesus' first followers too. We also have the witness of the Apostolic and Church Fathers who testify to its truth.
XSC3 4 years ago
And yet there are Bibles that have different content. If this was so the case, why the big disagreements with the last 6 books of the Catholic Bible? If translations don't really matter, why do Christians insist their Bible is the best? In many instances scholars have simply said "THIS BIBLE NEEDS REVISION". Does this ever happen with the Qur'an? Christians are utterly confused, and this is to the good profit of the publishers. Do you admit that this is a major flow of money?
satanicaa 4 years ago
You're confused. Arguing over translations of the Bible is like arguing over translations of the Quran. Do you say because translations of the Quran don't agree and need revision that the Quran is corrupt and that you need a new revelation? No. So why say that about the Bible?
A major flow of money? Sort of like the religious tax that Muslims collect from non-Muslims? Millions of bibles are given away for free too, you know. Nobody is forced to buy new translations if they don't want to.
XSC3 4 years ago
Everyone in Mecca has a free qur'an that doesn't say anything =P. Nobody is forced, but why would they not? It registers in their mind as the latest edition of Gods word, whether that's true or not. I quote my friend for saying "if english is good enough for Jesus its good enough for me" out of ignorance. Do you suppose all the people in the western world know they're reading a misprint of the word of God if it was a misprint of the bible? I doubt it.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Non-Muslims aren't even allowed to set foot in Mecca are they? (or some nutjob like Osama will try to have them killed)
Sure Muslims believe the Quran is God's word, just like other people believe their holy books are inspired. Doesn't mean any of them are right. Islam is cultural for millions of Muslims, they practice because they were raised, everyone around them does, and if they ever tried to convert, they could be killed.
XSC3 4 years ago
I don't know of a single bible out there that has a New Testament with "different content" than another. Do you know of any such bible? The disputed books that Catholics and traditional Christianity has always regarded as inspired, are part of the OT, not the NT. The hadith are disputed, and different sects of Islam have different interpretations. But I'm saying that even if you were to exclude the deuterocanon ("apocrypha") the teachings about Jesus would not change, since they're NT.
XSC3 4 years ago
If Muslims also believe in resurrection, why would they find reports of dead people rising from the grave (in body, in spirit or both) "questionable", satanicaa?
XSC3 4 years ago
We believe in a very specific resurruction, one that has not happened yet. It is the physical ressuruction before everyone's judgement.
satanicaa 4 years ago
There were probably a few Gnostics who survived from those early times, but you would in no way consider them even close to Islam. Even the small Ebionite heresy, who believed Jesus was only a man, believed that he BECAME GOD at his baptism. Or Arius who believed Jesus was a lesser god, created by the Father at some time early in the history of the cosmos.
XSC3 4 years ago
But today I know of no Christian (or Christian majority country) where you can be killed for converting to Islam (but the reverse is true for several countries from Islam-->Christianity).
XSC3 4 years ago
But you're asking me to basically assume that history was lost, and reconstructed supernaturally by a man six centuries later, and the fact that his new message contradicts the old one is to be held as proof that he's right over previous ones, and I'm to reject any future revelations after him. Okay, but how then can a Muslim argue that this is all reasonable, logical, etc.?
XSC3 4 years ago
Yes, ofcourse it seems illogical! Excuse me for being so bland about the whole thing but hopefully I have a video in mind that will be more focused on the "proofs" of this. It is obviously all subjective anyway, but it will probably be better than what i've said anyway.
satanicaa 4 years ago
The thing is, when comparing beliefs, satanicaa, you're asking me to accept certain things on faith, over certain things I as a Christian would take on faith.
XSC3 4 years ago
Is the Quran stands against divergence... then you have a problem. What if nobody follows it? The Muslims don't seem to be as there are many sects of Islam that disagree with each other. So even if the Quran is perfect, Islam as a religion has not followed it.. (or at least some Muslims are not, and how do we know which Muslim sect is correct?)
XSC3 4 years ago
Whether people follow it is another story. I preach what I believe is the truth, that Islam is perfect and muslims are corrupting its name. We know where the truth lies simply by looking at what evidence we have, the Qur'an and hadith. If muslims don't follow that, there is a problem with them as they are contradicting their own faith.
satanicaa 4 years ago
For example, NOI (nation of Islam) reveres a man to be the messiah, and think that there will not be a physical ressuruction, and think that black people will go to heaven first. This is in obvious contradiction with Islamic teachings. People do follow it, but rarely do you have a government that follows nothing but the Shari'a laws. As I said, just because muslims kill in the name of Allah for invalid reasons is not a reason to hate Islam.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Btw, satanicaa, there are several sites that document the contradicting passages in the Quran. I will warn you though that most of them are "anti-muslim" pages, and even atheist pages. But the point should suffice that if you just look, you see contradictions. I have heard Muslims explain these as the most recent revelations "correct" the earlier ones. But they don't deny that the contradictions exist.
XSC3 4 years ago
I have seen these websites, and I know all their pitiful arguments. My 12 year old nephew can refute them, it is sad that such accusations are even being tried by muslims.
satanicaa 4 years ago
I'm not interested in what a website says about Islam. I want you to point out contradictions that you feel disprove Islam and that way I can answer your claims. I can point 1mil contradictions in the Bible, but half of them could easily be eliminated in the light of context. If you feel I've been biasly saying the Qur'an is perfect and ignoring the contradictions, please try me.
satanicaa 4 years ago
If you want to say that the other messages were corrupt fine. But you can't say "well God HAD to send the Quran, so it must be true, because the other messages were corrupt." By that logic, the Quran will be or has been corrupted, and another messenger must be sent with another message to correct the Quran (Bahai, perhaps? Nation of Islam?). If you say "well God supernaturally kept the Quran perfect" then why not keep the Bible perfect?
XSC3 4 years ago
He identifies himself with the figure of Daniel's prophecy and the other Messianic prophecies. He says he existed before Abraham. Jehovah's Witnesses say that all the other Christians on earth are not Christians at all, but only they are the true Christians. But their beliefs keep changing and they didn't exist before 1860.
XSC3 4 years ago
No, the "Son of Man" and "Son of God" are used in a special way to refer to the Messiah, and the divine one that sits at the right hand of God (and is one with God, who appears as an angel or a human being). Jesus uses "I AM" to refer to himself. He says he's equal to the Father and that seeing him one sees the Father.
XSC3 4 years ago
Muhammad can say whatever he wants after the fact, but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus already taught himself to be divine, and his followers taught he was divine. Six hundred years later some "prophet" comes along and says he was not divine... what are we do to, but assume that this is a false prophet?
XSC3 4 years ago
I understand why people would make this inference, but then I can twist around what you said earlier: why would God allow billions of people to be decieved? I've heard radical notions like Mohammed is devil inspired, and honestly these are cheap shots. Why would someone who is devil inspired be so against the devil? I've heard notions of Mohammed being labeled as crazy or insane or a liar, but these can all be answered by simple logic.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Well what are the choices... IF (and you have faith, so this is a hypothetical for you), Muhammad was NOT a prophet of God, then what would you conclude? He was a false prophet. So either he made it all up, somebody put words into his mouth that he never said or intended (ie: corrupted), he was crazy, or maybe he had a demon.
XSC3 4 years ago
The same would be true of Jesus. If he was not the Son of God, then what he says and does in the NT shows him to be something less. A liar, a crazy man, or maybe a demoniac. Of course you might also say he never lived (historians disagree) or that his message was corrupted.
XSC3 4 years ago
This is true, but the difference is all these false accusations directed at Mohammed are some of the most outrageous accusations and ignorant accusations I've ever heard. It's like calling a man bad for being accustomed to urinate on the street if thats what his homeland taught. The west can't deferentiate between a wrong and a cultural difference. Also, who is to say what is right and wrong? This plays into subjectivity.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Did Paul know this was happening to his letters? The answer is no to that. Since he did not, doesn't this serve as somewhat of a contradiction? If his letters were included shouldn't all his words and works?
satanicaa 4 years ago
>>>Did Paul know this was happening to his letters? The answer is no to that. Since he did not, doesn't this serve as somewhat of a contradiction? If his letters were included shouldn't all his words and works?
So what? God knew, and God inspired him. Do you think Muhammad knew what people would do with his Quran and Hadith?
Only the letters of Paul that were inspired need be included. Ever word he ever spoke in his life was not inspired, just as not everything Muhammad uttered was prophecy.
XSC3 4 years ago
Actually, Mohammed DID know and God knew also. Evidence of this is very clear in the Qur'an and the hadith: there is a reason why Mohammed made sure nobody drew his picture, because of fear he would be worshipped like Jesus! There's a reason why there was a powerful repeating message for muslims not to diverge in their religion and to stay united and listen to only the Qur'an and sunna (hadith).
satanicaa 4 years ago
What's funny is that there were Christian iconoclasts in various periods (and still today even), and yet ALL of them worship Jesus as the Son of God. So aniconism does not ensure that Jesus will not be worshipped. Unlike Muhammad, Jesus himself made himself equal to God. If he was right, then Christians are right to worship him.
XSC3 4 years ago
Well we will go into if he did or not into more details. We muslims say one thing: if he said he was God, then we will worship him. We say Jesus (PBUH) would never lie, and as Mohammed (PBUH) was known as "alsiddiq" or the honest, we believe Jesus to have the same attribute. The Qur'ans standpoint on divergence from religion is very clear: it should not be tolerated. The reasons are obvious and evident.
satanicaa 4 years ago
There's no record of Jesus claiming NOT to be God until the Quran was written. There's plenty of statements of his own six hundred years before Islam equating himself with divinity, and everyone up to Muhammad either said he was divine or a liar/lunatic/demoniac.
XSC3 4 years ago
Jesus never said he was or wasn't as far as I have concluded. Inferences have been made in order for his statement to look like he is God. Again, if I was God, I would send messangers to speak the plain truth, so that there would be nothing hidden. Either you follow me or you don't. There is a difference between having faith in the unseen and tricking people into it. This goes into the context of "I and my father are one".
satanicaa 4 years ago
Jews ask Jesus basically are you the Christ? If you are tell us plainly. And they were right to question him in that respect. If God wanted a message to cross, would he not make it clear? Why would God use trickery in language to make claims? Why wouldn't God say I AM GOD WORSHIP ME as he does in the Qur'an AND the Torah? This is the obvious message of God, and if Jesus had a hard time phrasing it that way, I understand why someone would have a hard time believing he is God.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Well one explanation is that he would say he was divine while still respecting the divine name by not pronouncing it directly (Ie: saying "I'm Yahweh!"). The reaction of his audience is to accuse him of blasphemy and pick up stones, get angry and say he's making himself equal to God, etc. Why would they react that way if he was just speaking in obscure metaphors? These folks are Torah scholars that he's pissing off too.
XSC3 4 years ago
Oh no, it obviously appeared that he was equating himself to God. But he then corrects their philosophy in the next verses. Everything in due context indeed.
satanicaa 4 years ago
How does he 'correct' it? Please explain what you mean...
XSC3 4 years ago
Jesus (PBUH) was one of the greatest Jewish scholars. He understood what was the Torah in and out, but how? By reading and studying, not as a phenomenon. As you said, in "divine form" Jesus would know all languages, but as a human he spoke a language which is altogether useless today? Why didn't he speak and come to a people that would preserve the language and have his words exactly as they were said instead as Mohammed did? I'm sure God would have wanted that as a clear message.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Christians would say that Jesus' words WERE preserved, regardless of what language he spoke (and last I checked, most people today don't speak 7th century Arabic, and lots of people can't read it either), so there was no need to rely on a 7th century Arab "prophet" to translate, and give us "new revelations" of things nobody ever heard Jesus say before, that contradicted what he previously said (and even secular scholars will take the traditions about Jesus in the NT over the Quran's any day).
XSC3 4 years ago
Actually, I can read 7th century Arabic, and everyone who can read arabic can =). Interestingly enough, poems before Mohammed are still available today and they're just exquisite. The arabic language at the time of Mohammed (PBUH) was far more advanced then what it is today, simply because it has now been condensed and simplified, but this doesn't mean it is impossible to read or understand by any means.
satanicaa 4 years ago
We both know that transitioning from one language to another is impossible, so how/why do Christians make this claim? I will need an explanation. Furthermore, in order for you to say that Mohammed said Jesus said things he never said, you would have to also say every single word of Jesus was recorded. If this was the case then I suggest you look for a Bible with more volume, as no red letter Bible has enough red letters to fill even a large pamphlet.
satanicaa 4 years ago
What did Jesus say in the Qur'an that OBVIOUSLY conradicts something in the Bible? Jesus really didn't say much in record of the Qur'an, but I want to see some examples specifically.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Well, 5:116, Jesus is quoted as saying that he never said for men to take himself and Mary as two gods to be worshiped besides Allah. Presumably this is to 'correct' what Christians believed, but this is a misunderstanding. Christians don't believe Mary is divine, nor worship her, nor do they consider Jesus as a seperate god, but the one God himself. So what he said was true, but it indicates a misunderstanding of Christianity by Muhammad.
XSC3 4 years ago
Additionally, satanicaa, s. 61:6 has Jesus proclaiming that a new apostle will come after him and he will be named Ahmad. This is in clear contradiction to Jesus in the Gospels where he says he and the Father will send the HOLY SPIRIT (the Paraclete) not another human apostle, much less one named "Ahmad" (or Muhammad). Jesus never called himself the "apostle of God" but rather "the Son of Man" and the "Son of God."
XSC3 4 years ago
So you mean to tell me that every single word of Jesus Christ (PBUH) is in the Bible? If you are to tell me that, I want some proof. The Qur'an never says that WHAT JESUS MEANT BY AHMAD WAS PARACLETE, no never. Muslims are inferring that by means of deduction and common sense. Jesus apparently, if he is God, is one that spoke in riddles, and this is a clear contradiction to the God of the Qur'an and OT.
satanicaa 4 years ago
No, not every single word, but I don't think his words would be lost for six centuries only to appear in the Quran, do you? Why would Jesus say something that contradicted himself? Did he have "Satanic Verses" like Muhammad? Not even our heretics say anything close to what you say about Jesus.
XSC3 4 years ago
If a woman can bear God's child/God himself or a Man-God or a God-Man then there is no question about whether she is considered mere mortal. Do you mean to tell me all Christians believe Mary is hardly anything special? The verse can be interpreted in multiple ways, one being that God said he and Mary are not God, another saying that people took them as pure God substitutes. This is no more a misunderstanding as is the book of Genesis on creation of the world.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Catholics and Orthodox (the original traditional Christians) believe Mary was sinless. They both believe Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
Neither worship Mary. No Christians believe Mary is divine in any way shape or form. She's just a sinless virgin human that God chose to carry Christ in her womb without intercourse.
XSC3 4 years ago
just a though here, but i remember hearing that catholics do worship Mary, and yes she was not sinful, Chrisitian's however, do not worship Mary.
joseraguilar 3 years ago
You heard wrong, joseraguilar. Catholics and Orthodox do NOT worship Mary. Catholics and Orthodox ARE Christians, and in fact, the original Christians. All the Christians groups that exist today are derived in some manner from these churches or their beliefs.
XSC3 3 years ago
Tell me christian brothers.
Who Created Jesus?
Jesus(son)+God(?)+Holy spirit(shiting on statues)= ONE GOD
This is trinity right?
Well then tell me who put his seed to mary's womb and make her pregnent?
WHO? I got u guys :-)
ladenfuckedu 3 years ago
Debate me, ladenfuckedu.. I dare ya. Don't hide behind ad hominem and strawman attacks. Come argue it with me based on facts.
What are you afraid of? ;)
XSC3 3 years ago
And it's also important to remember, that while several modern liberal scholars (ie: the 200 of the "Jesus Seminar") think the Gospel of Thomas is probably better than the Gospel of John, they don't actually hold to a belief in "divine inspiration" (but rather "historical accuracy")... that is their opinion, and apart from the Gnostic heretics who wrote it, no early Christians ever considered the Gospel of Thomas to be inspired scripture.
XSC3 4 years ago
Of course Islam runs into a problem, because it can't say that Jesus was killed (and willingly too). What I want to know is why didn't Allah bring Jesus back to earth after rescuing him and let him continue preaching and so forth? Why wait another 600+ years for a less worthy man to finish the job?
XSC3 4 years ago
It's not that Islam CAN'T say that Jesus was killed, the Qur'an just says that he hasn't. Jesus (PBUH) himself says in John that there is still much for them to learn, but they cannot learn it yet, and that that is the comforter's job. Whether Mohammed is a less worthy man is subjective, and we obviously believe he's the best man for the job. Jesus is going to come back in his second comming, but the reason is different from Christianity
satanicaa 4 years ago
But why can't Islam admit Jesus was killed? Jesus himself said that prophets were killed. The "comforter" is the Holy Spirit (a divine being, the 3rd person of the Trinity). The disciples received this Spirit at Pentecost. Muhammad wouldn't be born for another six centuries...
XSC3 4 years ago
Islam admits prophets were killed also. We say that there were about 140k prophets to this day, and many were killed. But JESUS was not according to Islam. Can you show me the verses where the disciples recieved the spirit? There's nothing to admit to, we just don't believe in a certain BELIEF that you have. There is not enough proof to assert to him being alive or him being dead.
satanicaa 4 years ago
Okay. I was told that the reason Muslims do not admit Jesus died, is because "Allah would never allow one of his Messengers to be killed." I guess those Muslims spoke inaccurately...
XSC3 4 years ago