Cut the silly little word-play. It's simple to know what "Multiculturalism" is; anything pertaining to policies or presence, regarding multiple cultures.
David Cameron couldn't simply deport all illegals, or even stop immigration; the people of his country would be upset, and all he cares about is filling his pocket and his ego.
Angela Merkel has the right mind, but lacks the power also. Nationalism is basically family-ism; the children are supposed to inherit the house, not the guest.
@pooptickler1337 Well, except in this analogy, the "guests" are working to keep the house in good shape too, and the house belongs to everyone that lives in it. Seems like they should get SOMETHING out of it...
Except when you actually look at the state of things, and then you realize that the guests haven't done a damn thing. Oh, pardon my ignorance; they have done something to the family, and now the family is broken.
Congratulations Mr.Multi Culture, you've destroyed my family.
@pooptickler1337 Maybe you should consider cleaning your OWN house and doing your OWN plumbing and cooking your OWN food then. If you can't handle living with people from other parts of the world, move to Greenland or something.
Excuse me? I go to a restaurant owned by ethnically British people, and Ethnically British people are payed the do plumbing. I don't want millions of foreigners to impose their values onto us. Immigrants don't cook for you, they cook for money. Those guests don't care about this family, because they only care about their own families.
the number of jihadist recruits who were born in the west and whos parents are better assimilated and much less hostile ..look at the poll data on brit born university students on their opinions on sharia ,apostesy ,suicide bombers,division of loyaltys etc ..it would stand your hair on end .
most jihadists are BETTER educated and often have UNI degrees earned in western colleges ,all of the 911 bombers had such degrees ,some had doctorates ..
surely zaun ,you will acknowledge that the irish ,mexican and chinese have mostly assimilated into their various host cultures within a generation or two ? you are doubtless aware that the issue with islamic immigrants is that ,not only do they often not make any pretense of assimilation but that even after three generations they are openly hostile to the constitution ,democracy ,laws and customs of the host culture in fact ,the third generation is MORE openly hostile than the previous two ...
its not merely about violence but about demanding that the host nation make continuous consessions to the demands of one vocal minority .and please lets not bullshit ourselves here ,its not the hindu ,latin american , west indian or eastern european immigrents that are makeing a hash of the high hopes of "multiculturalisim" ..to pretend that you dont know what religious block (regardless of national origen )is the cause of all the recent public misgivings... is openly disingenuous at best .
@woodenmajor Sure, and 20 years ago it was "Mexicans", in 20 years it'll be the Chinese or someone else. Back in the 1800s it was the Irish, then the Italians.
This is exactly what the gripe is with the common people. We want our politicians just to say no and tell the immigrants why and deport those that don't agree and make a fuss about it. But our politicians are ultra politicaly correct and will do everything to follow the privileges of humanitarianism and co-existance without the duties. The duties are something that are only to be upheld by the orignal population. And their duty is peaceful co-existance so they should stfu and listen to politics
@Zaunstar ofcourse it means violence. You can disagree with democracy, you can advocate fascism for all I care in this country. You have the right of free speech. But you don't have the right for special privileges. The rules should be the same for everyone. How you move and how you portray yourself within these rules is your own culture. That is everyones free choice. (this assumes the rules/law is unbiased towards any religion/culture which in most secular western nations it is nowadays)
Despite uploading this weeks ago and this multiculturalism stuff has blown out of the mainstream media, I still like looking back to this video, you put it really well.
now, why you brought up wild goose stories and irrelevant plilosophies into it, maybe its a question that you need to answer too..( you know all in the service of a good discourse and ideas exchange) further more ,70 to 80% of europeans agree.
@amet1980 I've seen your name before. I'm not under the impression that civilized debate was anything you're interested in, but maybe I'm wrong.
I do actually have an idea of what I think multiculturalism is, and I will describe it in a future video. Not sure what the wild goose story was you referred to, or what 70-80% of Europeans agree on. I assume you mean 70-80% say multiculturalism has failed? Can you cite the source? I would like to read it. Thanks.
@Zaunstar I think the Europeans have some problems of their own with their immigration system and so there is pressure for change. In Australia there are also concerns that the system is too biased towards preserving foreign cultures and not enough towards preserving our Australian culture. This is a country where 46% of people were either born overseas or have parents who were born overseas. Multiculturalism has always sounded to me as divisive, I would prefer a system of integration myself.
@studley2436 So would you be OK with a situation where the cultures melded and it wasn't all just their culture being entirely absorbed into yours? I am of course NOT talking about compromising basics, as I said in the video, but perhaps some other ways of life.
@variablast Yep, all's good here, headed to Hawaii for work on Monday actually, which I can't complain about at all! Speaking of culture, Hawaii is pretty different, but quite cool in many ways. Get out there sometime if you can. I was just there in Sept.-Oct. for my 10th anniversary with Mrs. Zaunstar, and we were married in Hawaii as well!
@variablast Hehheh, I was wondering if you'd chime in on this one, since it's kind of right up your alley. How are you these days? Hope all's well in the northwest.
@Trucidofy There is no need for quotes around the white supremacists. They are obviously and I think demonstrably white supremacists. To be clear, I am not saying to you that there are no issues caused by immigration. I KNOW that there are. However, to throw in with the white supremacists is just as wrong and more than throwing in with cultural relativists. I would say that you could probably find some people tackling the issue more constructively than white supremacists. *:-)
@Trucidofy You actually were that close to those protestors? I wouldn't have gotten that close to them! Yes, there are plenty of nutty people in the world, but for every one you saw on the street, do you not think there were probably ten Muslims at home talking about how stupid the protestors were? (I don't know the answer to that, but would like you to consider that.)
@Trucidofy Of course it should be equally bad. Does the Finnish justice system actually not punish them because they are minorities? I would assume not.
@Trucidofy So the minorities are mostly radicals, you are saying? I think you would find that difficult to show. I'm glad that you agree with me most of the time, but some of those people I see you are subscribed to are white supremacists. How can you agree with that?
@Trucidofy I am part Finnish. I visited Helsinki in 2007. I didn't see evidence of what you are talking about, and I walked around the city quite a lot. I don't doubt there is crime there. There is crime everywhere. When I see your page, I see you are subscribed to "white nationalists", who are a pretty repugnant bunch. To them, there should be NO immigration to Finland or any other European country, if their skin is brown, no matter how educated or westernized they are. You think that's cool?
No, rather quite the opposite. Those who are able to emigrate into the western world are often the educated and wealthy, and most certainly to most dissatisfied - those who could've been the era of change, if they didn't emigrate.
The only way we'll solve the immense poverty issue is by helping the where they live, instead of transporting the problems to us. It's ineffective and fucking pointless. It's only the high and mighty academics who still believe in the multicultural fairy tale.
Swing and a miss. The major problem, at least in my opinion, is that a fair portion of the immigrants feel more connected to their home-country than the state they move to, and therefore are inclined to sit on their ass and leech off the state.
Secondly, you have to ask yourself what the "point" of mass immigration is. Is it to share our wealth with the third world? There are 3 billion people who make less than 2 dollars a day, do you think immigration will make a significant difference?
@physicsstudent If they wanted to, sure. Why would it matter? I wouldn't frame it a "good" or "bad" thing. It's just a thing, if that's what they want.
@evmac223 I would be curious to hear your take on it actually. I'm all about discourse. First, please define the word, and then I would be interested to hear why you believe it has failed.
@Zaunstar Sure. And cut me a break for phrasing this as gracefully as I can in passing. Anonymous internet discussions are notoriously disordered and contemptuous, yes? But let's try to get somewhere, as far as it goes and as much as it matters.
@Zaunstar Maybe start with just trying to come to an agreement on what multiculturalism is? In principle or concept, a rejection of pre-1950s racial assumptions seems obviously basic to it. Going a little further, it's supposed to look toward the full rights, integrity, and moral value of each ethno-cultural group. It's just attempt to translate the respectable idea of fairness into the terms and issues of race and culture.
@evmac223 OK, well, to be clear, when I say multiculturalism, I am not advocating for cultural relativism, or even for unlimited immigration. It is entirely up to the receiving country how they want this to work.
@evmac223 The definition I typically think of is the idea that a society is big enough for many different cultures side by side, PROVIDED there isn't a significant aspect of a culture that is illegal or counter to the values of the country. An example would be the area I live in where there are many people from every race and culture in dense suburbs, but there are no significant that I am aware of where one group infringes on another. Freedom of choice, but still under the law.
@Zaunstar That's not multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is a particular cluster of ideas and principles about *how* different cultures and ethnicities should coincide.
An academic by the name of Paul Gottfried who has written on multiculturalism pointed this out in an interview.
@Zaunstar Interviewer: You observe, "Nothing could be more misleading than to equate a multicultural society with a multiethnic one." What distinguishes a multicultural society from a multiethnic one?
Gottfried: Multiethnic societies have been recurrent political phenomena and involve the coexistence of more than one ethnos, that is, national community, living in the same jurisdiction.
@Zaunstar Such an arrangement has usually come about because of conquest or dynastic inheritance and until now has never required a celebration of diversity. Multiethnic societies have almost always been empires because of the way they have been formed and because of their lack of cohesion beyond the fact of what Thomas Hobbes called "acquired sovereignty."
@Zaunstar Moreover, unlike multicultural regimes, multiethnic ones do not celebrate sexual exotica or the nonrecognition of separate gender identities. Multicultural regimes are inherently subversive of traditional social relations.
@Zaunstar The bit there about "sexual exotica" is tangential. The basic point is that equating multiculturalism with the idea of fair and peaceful coexistence of different groups is off the mark. You have to look into what distinguishes multiculturalism, what it says about *how* coexistence should be framed, and on what terms.
"Rights, justice, inclusion, equality and respect are for people, not for beliefs and parallel legal systems. To safeguard the rights and freedoms of all those living in Britain, there must be one secular law for all and no religious courts."
Regardless of the alleged limited role of sharia under the Arbitration Act, the very fact of a separate function being allowed (Jewish family courts also operate) is an affront to equality under the law of the land. No good will come of it.
I don't think the problem is all the foreigners, it's the muslims, at least it is here in Sweden, a white women got raped here by muslim men who didn't wear a veil...I think when people here in Europe say there's a failure in multiculturism, they actually mean FAILURES OF MUSLIMS integrating.
Going to have tho whole heartedly agree with Thunderscartch66. For example, look at England and Sharia law being accepted there now, when Sharia law should not even exist at all, in their own lands OR in anybody else's.I am of the opinion that Multiculturalism is a failed lab experiment not because of the minority of immigrants that really do want to escape oppression and start a better life but for those radicals who bring about a bad taste in my mouth when I hear about Multiculturalism
@NihilistRyan You realize that Sharia is for civil cases only, and only when both parties agree to it, right? Do you think the radicals are the majority? Nobody likes radicals, and they should be able to be removed, but this isn't all about radicals. This is about the majority of immigrants, very few of which are trying to force change.
@Zaunstar I'm not endorsing Ryan's comment and not an expert in UK law, but keep in mind that civil law generally encompasses contracts of all sorts, marriage, divorce, and custody agreements, inheritance, and much else. I can easily imagine many women "agreeing" to follow sharia law in a prenuptial, before discovering husband's an abusive monster and fights all rights the wife might seek through a divorce. Just something to ponder.
@RomeoGrrl That's a good point, however remember that if EITHER party opts out, then they would go by standard British civil law. The pre-nup angle though is one I had not considered. I would think and hope that the pre-nup would not supersede British law in this case. I doubt it could.
Immigration is almost always a problem. Us and them, right? When the human race can grow out of its xenophobia, then we can mingle without fear and hate. Here in Norway, middle eastern people are feared/hated the most, solely because of Extremist Islam. WIthout Islam, we'd treat them with the same mild shifty eyes as the rest of the immigrants. I have no more or less love for immigrants than my own countrymen. I judge people on an individual basis, however, I realize politicians can't do that.
What they mean with multiculturalism has failed is exactly what you is talking about. These leaders are advocating that western laws should be enforced in west-europe, and that other cultures and religions is excuse for barbarism.
Define Multiculturalism (please somebody preferably from the UK or Europe).......because i don't understand ..........is being against Multiculturalism being against anything cultural that didn't derive from Europe
@tynitty516 Basically, the appreciation, acceptance or promotion of multiple cultures. Sounds good on paper doesn't it? The problem is, that "only" works if all cultures r willing to engage in this & don't have an ulterior agenda taking advantage of the hosting culture.
It is not so much as being against multiculturalism, it is more the case that what was been pushed by the liberal left over the past decades has failed. We now have parts of cities in the UK where there is zero integration.
@PacalB OK. noted im just trying to get an idea of what people in the UK are talking about because i grew up in New York and we have Chinese culture, Afro-Carribean,Hispanic,Russian,Jewish,Greek,Indian..... seems pretty fine to me......there is no-one on YOUTUBE complaining about New York's Multiculturalism problem. a free society can co-exist with Multiculturalism.......
@tynitty516 As I said, sound's good on paper & if u have a strong system backing it it works, the states there is as example. You really need to see or at least inform yourself to what is happening over here to get a good understanding. That said I've been pushing a number of documentaries to look on this thread, take a bit of time out to watch them.
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
@PacalB I'm not questioning your claims or doubting anything you say. My point was too clarify your definition of "Multiculturalism"......because when people in the states here term they think of San Francisco,New York,LA,.. diverse culture in cities. Harlem,Little Italy,China-town,Little Ethiopia being examples of pockets where different cultures co-exist ......it works well hence the large demand to live in those cities ........If people hated "this" they would move to say "Alabama"
@tynitty516 There is plenty of blending going on here in the UK still. You've only got to walk around London to see it in action. As I say, multiculturalism, the acceptance &/or promotion of multiple cultures at it's core is a great thing. The problem here was in the past on how it was sold to the general public, "Doors wide open immigration wise", this led to a massive influx of people, many of whom do not want Western culture ... cont.
@tynitty516 ... do not want to integrate & if challenged on it automatically hit back with accusations of racism being brought against them. For many many years people just took it, they kept quiet and said nothing. That time is drawing to an end now, people are basically fed up. It's nothing to do with racism or an inability to appreciate other cultures, it is simply that people are tired of seeing the countries openness & hospitality abused.
@tynitty516 Many of these areas have peoples that stem for poorer countries, whom seem to care very little that they have come to a western country that has the advantages of a modern society. What happens next is the ghettoization of these areas, the basic running down of the place as people whom have the money move away. The situation just gets worse. How do u educate those whom have spent most of their lives living in poor over populated parts of the world to change their basic daily habits?
@FluidDeconstructor - Exactly. Spot on, you have no idea how much muslims are ruining Sweden, all the people from other racial backgrounds are helping us while the muslims feed off us...
just out of curiosity, have you ever lived in europe Zaunstar? because I think if you had, the answers to alot of your questions would become apparent. ppl are fed up with dealing with weeding out the few good from the majority-bad of immigrants in europe. try living with these ppl, taking the bus/metro with them. doing your shopping beside them. you might be less quick to defend them after you see the problems becoming routine/daily things.
I'm living with "these" people, shopping with them, etc. Had no problem with any immigrant ever. Granted, i live in the south of germany where things aren't as bad as in some other parts, but still, what problems are you talking about specifically?
@tbk2010 The problems are so numerous that it would be hardly worth listing here. I have a better question for you. Have you ever considered that your skin complexion (along with the "good" location you mentioned) are contributing factors in why you have experienced less (or no) actual problems with *these ppl*? Have you ever seen that crappy movie "Demolition man"? If you don't fall into the stereotypic "civilized white chump" category, its not suprising that mr. snipes hasnt noticed you.
@tbk2010 Specifically?Well this kind of problem going on, watch.
Mosques?
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
Schools?
/watch?v=w4O-cqhPBWw
/watch?v=9wG6p2LjtBc
There r many good things that come out of many cultures from around this planet, likewise there r bad things. The above video clips r the bad, a place where western [secular] culture & Islamic dogma clash. It is an issue that we all "are" going to have to deal with.
@thunderscratch66 I've visited about a dozen countries in Europe on four separate trips, amounting to about six weeks in all. The majority of immigrants are bad? Taking the bus/metro with them is bad why? Can you elaborate on how they are impacting your life?
@Zaunstar It's one of those things that if you haven't seen it, felt it, if you don't know what it is, it's not really worth explaining. If you haven't lived it, then you're whole opinion is based on practially nothing. It's like a german guy spending 6 weeks in NYC and coming back thinking that now HE has it ALL figured out. the more I think about it, with all *respect* I wonder if the subject you decided to post on has all to do with getting more views, nothing more, nothing less....
@thunderscratch66 I make videos because I enjoy it. I spent hours making a video when I had 13 subscribers. Heh. Beyond that, why can't you explain what you mean? Do you feel uncomfortable being in a train car where you are not the majority? I've been in that situation and it has not bothered me. I never said I had it all figured out, but I can almost guarantee you that I could ask some of your neighbors about it and they would say that it doesn't bother them. Do you think that's the case?
@Zaunstar our neighbors are of all ages, senior citizens, 20 year olds, 30 somethings, and one thing everyone has noticed is that on the street corners all the drug dealers here are arabs, who snear and start problems with all ppl passing who arent like them (white jogging pants that are tight at the ankle, showing socks, new sneakers that look like they have hydraulics in them...etc). tbc:
@Zaunstar I don't need to be the minority in a train. It only takes 2 or 3 arabs to bring a train full of *whities* to a point of hesitation or even panic. thing is, most *civilized* ppl hesitate, think of their family, and the consequences of their retaliation, and do nothing. while I can assure that i do not partake in such sheeping, it's all too common in europe. I think if I look around I can give you a few links that represent this routine....
@Zaunstar I couldnt find this on youtube w's liveleak.com/view?i=2c5_1258533132
this is DAILY life in any public place, just need to be in the wrong place/right time (quite easy to do actually.....) but i can show you 1 link, or 20, what does it change, you'll just think i'm trying to give you MY impression of things.... anyway, THIS is how many many ppl see things, wether you believe it or not...
@thunderscratch66 I live in Europe and I say that what Zaunstar says in this video is correct, and that you're full of shit ...as would pretty much everyone I know here.
Now where's your argument about "you wouldn't say that if you lived in Europe" gone?
Perhaps off topic: if a culture is defined as a a set of noncritical things such as food, clothes, etc then surely any nation can benefit from multiculturalism due to the increased variety in food, fashion, etc.
However, some aspects of different cultures are incompatible. For instance, you cant have both sharia law and western laws, freedom of speech and anti-blasphemy laws, etc.
I guess a clear distinction needs to be made between non-critical choices and critical laws.
I argue with other foreigners here in Tokyo all the time about imposing one culture upon another. I think what's happening is a weird case of domestic culture shock. We seem to be just as aware of the variety of ethnicities in the West now as ever before. Although we have so much information about other cultures at our fingertips, the onus is still upon us personally to think critically.
To think "Multiculturalism failed" is ridiculous. Multiculturalism can't fail because that's all we've got.
Government should be run culturally agnostic. Laws should never be made to enforce normative behaviors. If a society agrees to obey those two rules then it would not matter how diverse the cultures are within it.
But halal slaughter is entirely consistent with our highest values! Now, trying to sell beef that 10% of the population won't buy, that's unthinkable.
Multiculturalism is not a failure and the point is it is bound to happen in the future how long can mankind try and separate themselves? Cultures will as they always have mix and combine and of course there will always be problems but you cannot try and keep it from happening because it will not work. Its a struggle that has to happen
The problem is the way that it's done. Rather than everybody mixing and learning from each other and sharing ideas, children are segregated in their own schools based upon religion, they're stopped from mixing with children of other races and backgrounds and religions, and what you basically end up with is lots of monocultures rather than a multiculture.
And that's a recipe for disaster as fundamental values and beliefs clash and prejudice grows usually based upon crap in the media.
@Xerotaerg Well tell me which definition you're using, and tell me why it's wrong. I'm all about discourse, so I'm happy to discuss it. If I were that arrogant, I think I wouldn't bother, would I? My subscribers I think can attest to this. So tell me where you believe I'm wrong, and let's talk about it.
#2 The problem with multiculturalism is quite simply that a culture cannot be kept alive if it is to be properly integrated with the rest of society and other cultures. If you're an immigrant, a lot of the time you didn't need to learn the language or integrate properly because the government simply gave you money if you couldn't find a job, reducing the need to learn a language and finding work. Any time one pointed out that immigrantwelfare could lead to this, you were just called a racist.
The problem with multiculturalism in Europe was that the government was actively trying to NOT deal with the situation as you said they should have. The entire ideology of multiculturalism was basically that if you said anything negative about foreigners, you were just a racist isolationist who shouldn't be in public office.
@Slug99 Yes, it's not too late to address extremism though. I would like to see someone that can defend their way of life in those countries to these people. Hell, I'll do it for them in a video if they pay me to do it. Hehheh.
Did you conveniently omit an example of "change that is counter to our values"? And are you saying if these european leaders were more honest and blunt about refusing to accommodate foreigners it would be accceptable, consistent , and not bigoted?
@spiritualbully Yes, if they were honest about it and explained why that is counter to our values to do what *some* (not all) immigrants is proposing, it would be a lot easier to accept and understandable than simply railing against foreigners.
@Zaunstar OK, now WHAT IF, the decisions made by leaders and people were not the same people today, so the people upset today are simply saying "we were wrong, if we didnt make the mistakes ourselves, some of us before us did, so its time to rethink whether we are right about multikult"?
You seem to say if you made a decision in the past you can't regret it or be upset later.
I think you're missing the point a bit, but that may just be my misunderstanding. I think the general point we should take from the recent backlash against multiculturalism is that tolerance can only get us so far, and that new models for understanding our interactions with "the Other" are needed today, like perhaps interculturalism.
@Whatever4690 It doesn't matter to me. Caucasians aren't a species by ourselves, so who cares if we become extinct. The silver lining to caucasian extinction would be no more white supremacists actually.
Factual error: Germany is not facing an economic crisis similar to the US. Germany is experiencing a boom right now.
What Merkel was refering to, is the German approach of the 90s, which failed.
It was viewed as arrogant (and borderline-fascist) to persuade newcomers to integrate into society. This resultet in immigrants forming sub-societies, living in enclaves or ghettos within German cities. These enclaves have there own laws and languages and shut themselves of from the rest of society.
@DanteD83 Yes, I know they are doing better already. I agree that the last part of your statement is a problem, but it can be addressed without painting all immigrants that way.
@DanteD83 wrong, they dont have their own laws, they just have alot of undereducated cavemen living in them, they still get fucked by the regular law if they act on it.
I'm not sure that these conservative leaders are all bashing foreigners when they attack multiculturalism. In some European countries, the liberal leaders have bowed so deeply to wishes of incoming minorities, that many people native to the country have already had their rights stepped on.
I don't live there; so I'm working off second hand knowledge. But, if what I'm told is accurate, they aren't overreacting. They're just finally taking action about a real problem.
@t3tsuyaguy1 Well, if these leaders would address the actual items that the foreigners are putting on the table, that would strike me as more honest, rather than the lumping together of groups. I DO believe they need to be more forceful in saying no to some things actually, as I mentioned in the video.
@Zaunstar I definitely agree with your suggestions. You described a clear and open message. "This is what we won't accept/change and why. We can talk about working on anything else." I really wish that there was someone in power advocating that approach. Unfortunately it seems too many people think was have no choice, but to talk about these things in extremes of abasement or abject rejection.
What Multiculturalism means is 2 or more cultures living along side, respecting each other, not imposing on each other, being friendly and having a healthy relationship. This is true for many cultures, but not Islam. and that's what the leaders are referring to: Islam refuses to be integrated, it refuses to co-exist peacefully, it's followers poses ridiculous demands on their host-country to convert to shari'a (Which is intrinsicly evil) and are grossly overrepresented in the crime statistics.
Cameron, Merkel and Sarkozy were all referring specifically to Islam when they cite multiculturalism. In Europe and Britain the islamists are most definitely taking the piss. I agree with the comments by the leaders, all other ethic/religious groups have integrated well without having to lose their customs and recipes. Islam hasn't.
So your saying sam harris,thunderfoot and christopher hitchens are wrong?,you obviously dont give a shit about anyone else but yourself,and you harp on about this stuff to make yourself feel superior to everyone else around you.
Specifically when they are talking about multiculturalism failing they are talking about a massive push for immigrants as cheap labour that went wrong, German Turks, English Pakistanis, Netherland North Africans/Turks have higher crime rates and higher unemployment. Oddly enough 2nd and 3rd gen citizens perform even worse then 1st gen from a economic perspective.
The failure is not in the concept of multiculturalism but in the ability to integrate very large minorities in a short time
@deathByStupid I understand your point. Why would these leaders not talk about it in those terms though, if that's the real issue? It's puzzling. Also, I would be curious to see those statistics on 2nd and 3rd gen citizens. Feel free to send it to me if you can find it.
The problem isn't multiculturalism, rather it's the interpretation of multiculturalism. The extremists have taken over the discussion and call any questioning of extremism racism. Multiculturalism needs to be taken back.
Fluffy fantasy,you are risking the decline of england,all high and mighty until people begin begging and robbing to survive,we must protect our interests and seriously reduce immigration.
You can't deport people in the UK if the country has the death penalty, or if the person's life is in danger.
When people talk in the UK of multi-culturalism being a problem they're specifically talking about Islam. All religions are pretty much annoying. I think people shouldn't be allowed to send their children to faith-based schools (that's all religions). If people want to fill their children's head with crap, they can do it after school, using their own money.
I am completely okay with multiculturalism as long as the other cultures share or even accept our core values and cultural principles. The problem is, that certain cultures are strightly opposed to our core ideas: freedom of speech, freedom of individual, equality, ect.
I see no problem with right wing politicians being against such cultures, as I am not far left enough to believe that ALL cultures can live side by side in the same society, and yet the society can remain functional.
@Zaunstar, you seem a bit naive there. Imagine a stealth jihad? Okay, lets try the UK for example, please take a moment of your time to review these links if you will.
Mosques?
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
@Zaunstar U see, some groups feel our democracy here in the West is to be milked and used, they have their own agenda set in motion. Cultures where it is okay to cut off a female child's clitoris or stone/hand people for being gay, or cut off limbs as punishment is not acceptable in my eyes. So I would say, not all cultures are equal ... and this is where multiculturalism begins to fail. I look forward to hearing your comments and opinions on the video links and anyone else's for that matter.
@PacalB All cultures are not equally moral; That is absolutely true. But it's beside the point, a multicultural society does not mean a society that bows down to every culture and changes the law. This idea only apply to peaceful cultures, giving them the freedom to do whatever the hell they want (provided no law is broken).
Female genital mutilation is still illegal and will not change because a fringe group of a broad Islamic culture request it.
@TubeTest42 Your mistake is that it's a fringe group that are the religious extremists. These ideas are mainstream. Sharia courts are already trying criminal cases in Britain such as the beating of women and a stabbing. It's entirely reasonable that they would be adjudicating genital mutilation cases.
@shirehorse9 I had not heard this, that some criminal cases were being tried in sharia courts. Can you send me the link? I have heard this claim before, but not found evidence from any legitimate media.
@akaei0 No, it wasn't & this is why I think Zauntar here is being slightly naive. The multiculturalism part only works if both sides r willing to blend, guess what? Not only is one side not willing to blend but it sees that willingness blend as a weakness that can be exploited.
Hence why I offered the following video clips of the UK
Mosques?
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
@akaei0 Also, I say this ... maybe u should delve into this subject a bit deeper akaei0, educate yourself on what is actually happening behind the scenes in the UK/EU & such. Add the willingness to bend over backwards with abused multiculturalism & it sets a fertile ground for 1 hell of a mess. We r starting to see this & this is why there r those looking to shut it down. Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bottle, what will happen next only time will tell.
I'm going to largely concede the point because I don't really know what "multiculturalism" is. It sounds more like civil coexistence than blending. But maybe it's something else. But if two tribes can agree on what is permissible and what is not it then becomes a point of consequences for the impermissible. If they cannot agree then that would not be civil coexistence.
@PacalB I watched one of the schools ones. That's a perfect example of a situation where they could easily step in with a number of laws and shut it down. I have no issue with that. Release that type of video, and I think they wouldn't get much opposition.
@Zaunstar A shame u didn't have time/chose not to view the other clips, at least in part. I think it paints a clear picture of what is actually going on behind the scenes. I mean, how many here normally visit their local mosques or Islamic faith schools? & when someone is sent in with a hidden camera this kind of thing is seen to be happening in the videos? Not only this, it is being actively funded by the likes of the Saudi's all across the EU? Ur stealth jihad jibe there? Look at the facts.
@PacalB I only have so much time. I'm working. *:-P I'm sure there are some things that need to be looked at, and I'm sure there are some terrorists in their number. I would actually categorize that as "actual jihad", since this isn't the "political Islam" that Pat and others talk about. Our main argument here is about scale and about how "close" they are to "taking over". I'm sure there is a lot that we otherwise agree on.
@Zaunstar Understood about not having time being @ work, I know all about that. :) So then, when u do have time take a moment, see what is actually going on. As for it getting to the point of "taking over", that is way off fortunately, but do we really want it to get anywhere near that? I posted a link to here earlier: vimeo 0 com/17916558
Watch it, its of a prt of London called Tower Hamlets, a good example how radical Islam is willing to use democratic methods to get control of an area.
@FluidDeconstructor christianity being tamed? I don't really agree with that statement believe me when you've witness the insanity that today's christians revolve around you'll doubt it too watch fox news that will about sum it up-oh or even better got to a pentecostal church most of those people are bat-shit-crazy and more worse is that they brutally force those crazy beliefs on small children. christianity has a long way to go before being thoroughly tamed and even then I don't think it can be
Zaunstar, I feel that alot of the world hasn't found the ultimate truth that we shouldn't care at all about a person's culture, sex, sexual orientation, race, or skin color but rather judge people on their character and how fat they are.
Mutli-culturalism is a great thing. What would I do on a Friday night if the amazing Thai family restaurant around the corner wasn't there to cook my dinner!! lol *jokes*. Everyone just needs to get along! Learn from each other! :)
@karmagirl74 Tell that to the muslim community. Naa it´s been tried and has failed globally. I mean, I have said the muslim oath of affirmation or whatever it is called, though I´m still an atheist. And about 60% of all danish muslims think that I should be hanged in the nearest tree for that, if only they had the power. So you see, there can be no debate or any course set on agreement. Just a show of power that the sane of us will not let any such random murdering happen.
Nailed it on the head, once again! Multiculturalism works JUST FINE when the society everyone is moving into has some testicles and abandons the PC bull in favor of, you know, putting their overall cultural values of inclusion, diversity, equal opportunity, democracy, free speech, secularism, etc. ahead of all the other cultural values being slung around. But politicians are politicians. They'd rather get on their knees for the minority culture and call it quits than say "Sorry, no Sharia Law!"
@Zaunstar I did I was shocked because I usually have nothing but good things to say about you and you are indirectly responsible for me making any videos at all.
Are you actually so ignorant, that you do not know that multiculturalism is generally understood as the positive argument that the more a society is culturally mixed the better.
Further, I´m against it. Because to be a multiculturalism is by definition the acceptance that to be humanist is just as retarded as the muslim promotion of wife beating, child beating, censorship, death penalty fan and torture by circumcision.
@JRBendixen I had never heard that definition before. If that's really what it is though, then I would generally say it's not really a goal. I appreciate diversity, but don't require "X degree" of diversity as some kind of "goal".
Do you equate multiculturalism with tolerating those things that you listed? See, I never have seen it that way at all, and this is why there is this divide over the term.
@Zaunstar You could have looked it up on wikipedia. I admit that it says nothing about my example. Rather it states that different cultures has equal value. Rater my example is about the actual mensurable result applied to societies. If taken to serious as with almost anything the result become, well insane.
I feel inclined to tell you that for example circumcision is culturally based, ie. it is culture by any definition. So is any practice of religion.
@JRBendixen As religion is culture, hmm lets try an experiment of mixing religions. Ahh forget it, I do not even have to make an example as you know them all. They are on the front page news all time, so why bother.
Cut the silly little word-play. It's simple to know what "Multiculturalism" is; anything pertaining to policies or presence, regarding multiple cultures.
David Cameron couldn't simply deport all illegals, or even stop immigration; the people of his country would be upset, and all he cares about is filling his pocket and his ego.
Angela Merkel has the right mind, but lacks the power also. Nationalism is basically family-ism; the children are supposed to inherit the house, not the guest.
pooptickler1337 1 month ago
@pooptickler1337 Well, except in this analogy, the "guests" are working to keep the house in good shape too, and the house belongs to everyone that lives in it. Seems like they should get SOMETHING out of it...
Zaunstar 1 month ago
@Zaunstar
Except when you actually look at the state of things, and then you realize that the guests haven't done a damn thing. Oh, pardon my ignorance; they have done something to the family, and now the family is broken.
Congratulations Mr.Multi Culture, you've destroyed my family.
pooptickler1337 1 month ago
@pooptickler1337 Maybe you should consider cleaning your OWN house and doing your OWN plumbing and cooking your OWN food then. If you can't handle living with people from other parts of the world, move to Greenland or something.
Zaunstar 1 month ago
@Zaunstar
Excuse me? I go to a restaurant owned by ethnically British people, and Ethnically British people are payed the do plumbing. I don't want millions of foreigners to impose their values onto us. Immigrants don't cook for you, they cook for money. Those guests don't care about this family, because they only care about their own families.
pooptickler1337 1 month ago
@pooptickler1337 Oh, so the immigrant stranger cooking your food doesn't care about your family, but the British stranger really cares?
Zaunstar 1 month ago
the number of jihadist recruits who were born in the west and whos parents are better assimilated and much less hostile ..look at the poll data on brit born university students on their opinions on sharia ,apostesy ,suicide bombers,division of loyaltys etc ..it would stand your hair on end .
most jihadists are BETTER educated and often have UNI degrees earned in western colleges ,all of the 911 bombers had such degrees ,some had doctorates ..
woodenmajor 5 months ago
surely zaun ,you will acknowledge that the irish ,mexican and chinese have mostly assimilated into their various host cultures within a generation or two ? you are doubtless aware that the issue with islamic immigrants is that ,not only do they often not make any pretense of assimilation but that even after three generations they are openly hostile to the constitution ,democracy ,laws and customs of the host culture in fact ,the third generation is MORE openly hostile than the previous two ...
woodenmajor 9 months ago
@woodenmajor That's rather specific. Where did you get that last stat from?
Zaunstar 9 months ago
its not merely about violence but about demanding that the host nation make continuous consessions to the demands of one vocal minority .and please lets not bullshit ourselves here ,its not the hindu ,latin american , west indian or eastern european immigrents that are makeing a hash of the high hopes of "multiculturalisim" ..to pretend that you dont know what religious block (regardless of national origen )is the cause of all the recent public misgivings... is openly disingenuous at best .
woodenmajor 9 months ago
@woodenmajor Sure, and 20 years ago it was "Mexicans", in 20 years it'll be the Chinese or someone else. Back in the 1800s it was the Irish, then the Italians.
Zaunstar 9 months ago
@Zaunstar Except the conflict between Islam and the west has been going on for about a thousand years. BIG difference.
Drgamedood 9 months ago
Pretty much exactly what I think on the topic =)
CriminalQueer 10 months ago
This is exactly what the gripe is with the common people. We want our politicians just to say no and tell the immigrants why and deport those that don't agree and make a fuss about it. But our politicians are ultra politicaly correct and will do everything to follow the privileges of humanitarianism and co-existance without the duties. The duties are something that are only to be upheld by the orignal population. And their duty is peaceful co-existance so they should stfu and listen to politics
BrutusAlbion 11 months ago
@BrutusAlbion I agree with most of what you said in principle, however unless "making a fuss" involves violence, I don't think deportation is right.
Zaunstar 11 months ago
@Zaunstar ofcourse it means violence. You can disagree with democracy, you can advocate fascism for all I care in this country. You have the right of free speech. But you don't have the right for special privileges. The rules should be the same for everyone. How you move and how you portray yourself within these rules is your own culture. That is everyones free choice. (this assumes the rules/law is unbiased towards any religion/culture which in most secular western nations it is nowadays)
BrutusAlbion 11 months ago
Despite uploading this weeks ago and this multiculturalism stuff has blown out of the mainstream media, I still like looking back to this video, you put it really well.
Panttts 11 months ago 2
@Panttts Thanks! I appreciate it.
Zaunstar 11 months ago
Just stop. You're making yourself look rediculous.
Oxyster7 1 year ago
@Oxyster7 so do you since you're unable to spell ridiculous.
TheLadyOfG 4 months ago
woa you should go to a charlie sheen lookalike almost thought you where him
johndebbra 1 year ago
everyones knows what they meant,including you.
now, why you brought up wild goose stories and irrelevant plilosophies into it, maybe its a question that you need to answer too..( you know all in the service of a good discourse and ideas exchange) further more ,70 to 80% of europeans agree.
amet1980 1 year ago
@amet1980 I've seen your name before. I'm not under the impression that civilized debate was anything you're interested in, but maybe I'm wrong.
I do actually have an idea of what I think multiculturalism is, and I will describe it in a future video. Not sure what the wild goose story was you referred to, or what 70-80% of Europeans agree on. I assume you mean 70-80% say multiculturalism has failed? Can you cite the source? I would like to read it. Thanks.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar I think the Europeans have some problems of their own with their immigration system and so there is pressure for change. In Australia there are also concerns that the system is too biased towards preserving foreign cultures and not enough towards preserving our Australian culture. This is a country where 46% of people were either born overseas or have parents who were born overseas. Multiculturalism has always sounded to me as divisive, I would prefer a system of integration myself.
studley2436 1 year ago
@studley2436 So would you be OK with a situation where the cultures melded and it wasn't all just their culture being entirely absorbed into yours? I am of course NOT talking about compromising basics, as I said in the video, but perhaps some other ways of life.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@variablast Yep, all's good here, headed to Hawaii for work on Monday actually, which I can't complain about at all! Speaking of culture, Hawaii is pretty different, but quite cool in many ways. Get out there sometime if you can. I was just there in Sept.-Oct. for my 10th anniversary with Mrs. Zaunstar, and we were married in Hawaii as well!
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@variablast Hehheh, I was wondering if you'd chime in on this one, since it's kind of right up your alley. How are you these days? Hope all's well in the northwest.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Trucidofy There is no need for quotes around the white supremacists. They are obviously and I think demonstrably white supremacists. To be clear, I am not saying to you that there are no issues caused by immigration. I KNOW that there are. However, to throw in with the white supremacists is just as wrong and more than throwing in with cultural relativists. I would say that you could probably find some people tackling the issue more constructively than white supremacists. *:-)
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Trucidofy You actually were that close to those protestors? I wouldn't have gotten that close to them! Yes, there are plenty of nutty people in the world, but for every one you saw on the street, do you not think there were probably ten Muslims at home talking about how stupid the protestors were? (I don't know the answer to that, but would like you to consider that.)
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Trucidofy Of course it should be equally bad. Does the Finnish justice system actually not punish them because they are minorities? I would assume not.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Trucidofy So the minorities are mostly radicals, you are saying? I think you would find that difficult to show. I'm glad that you agree with me most of the time, but some of those people I see you are subscribed to are white supremacists. How can you agree with that?
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Trucidofy I am part Finnish. I visited Helsinki in 2007. I didn't see evidence of what you are talking about, and I walked around the city quite a lot. I don't doubt there is crime there. There is crime everywhere. When I see your page, I see you are subscribed to "white nationalists", who are a pretty repugnant bunch. To them, there should be NO immigration to Finland or any other European country, if their skin is brown, no matter how educated or westernized they are. You think that's cool?
Zaunstar 1 year ago
No, rather quite the opposite. Those who are able to emigrate into the western world are often the educated and wealthy, and most certainly to most dissatisfied - those who could've been the era of change, if they didn't emigrate.
The only way we'll solve the immense poverty issue is by helping the where they live, instead of transporting the problems to us. It's ineffective and fucking pointless. It's only the high and mighty academics who still believe in the multicultural fairy tale.
HuMuSuX 1 year ago
Swing and a miss. The major problem, at least in my opinion, is that a fair portion of the immigrants feel more connected to their home-country than the state they move to, and therefore are inclined to sit on their ass and leech off the state.
Secondly, you have to ask yourself what the "point" of mass immigration is. Is it to share our wealth with the third world? There are 3 billion people who make less than 2 dollars a day, do you think immigration will make a significant difference?
HuMuSuX 1 year ago
Bravo. Nice concise and poignant analysis.
FlashJack85 1 year ago
So I take it you think that mass immigration of Whites into non-White countries is also a good thing?
physicsstudent 1 year ago
@physicsstudent If they wanted to, sure. Why would it matter? I wouldn't frame it a "good" or "bad" thing. It's just a thing, if that's what they want.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar, watch the video series by patcondell and you will understand everything.
Spiegellman 1 year ago
@Spiegellman I've watched nearly all of Pat's videos. I know what he believes.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
Lose the condescension and ask me nicely and I'll give you some feedback on why multiculturalism has failed.
evmac223 1 year ago
@evmac223 I would be curious to hear your take on it actually. I'm all about discourse. First, please define the word, and then I would be interested to hear why you believe it has failed.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Sure. And cut me a break for phrasing this as gracefully as I can in passing. Anonymous internet discussions are notoriously disordered and contemptuous, yes? But let's try to get somewhere, as far as it goes and as much as it matters.
evmac223 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Maybe start with just trying to come to an agreement on what multiculturalism is? In principle or concept, a rejection of pre-1950s racial assumptions seems obviously basic to it. Going a little further, it's supposed to look toward the full rights, integrity, and moral value of each ethno-cultural group. It's just attempt to translate the respectable idea of fairness into the terms and issues of race and culture.
evmac223 1 year ago
@evmac223 OK, well, to be clear, when I say multiculturalism, I am not advocating for cultural relativism, or even for unlimited immigration. It is entirely up to the receiving country how they want this to work.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Ok. But I'm trying to get at what multiculturalism is, not what you privately want or favor.
evmac223 1 year ago
@evmac223 The definition I typically think of is the idea that a society is big enough for many different cultures side by side, PROVIDED there isn't a significant aspect of a culture that is illegal or counter to the values of the country. An example would be the area I live in where there are many people from every race and culture in dense suburbs, but there are no significant that I am aware of where one group infringes on another. Freedom of choice, but still under the law.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar That's not multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is a particular cluster of ideas and principles about *how* different cultures and ethnicities should coincide.
An academic by the name of Paul Gottfried who has written on multiculturalism pointed this out in an interview.
evmac223 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Interviewer: You observe, "Nothing could be more misleading than to equate a multicultural society with a multiethnic one." What distinguishes a multicultural society from a multiethnic one?
Gottfried: Multiethnic societies have been recurrent political phenomena and involve the coexistence of more than one ethnos, that is, national community, living in the same jurisdiction.
evmac223 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Such an arrangement has usually come about because of conquest or dynastic inheritance and until now has never required a celebration of diversity. Multiethnic societies have almost always been empires because of the way they have been formed and because of their lack of cohesion beyond the fact of what Thomas Hobbes called "acquired sovereignty."
evmac223 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Moreover, unlike multicultural regimes, multiethnic ones do not celebrate sexual exotica or the nonrecognition of separate gender identities. Multicultural regimes are inherently subversive of traditional social relations.
evmac223 1 year ago
@Zaunstar The bit there about "sexual exotica" is tangential. The basic point is that equating multiculturalism with the idea of fair and peaceful coexistence of different groups is off the mark. You have to look into what distinguishes multiculturalism, what it says about *how* coexistence should be framed, and on what terms.
evmac223 1 year ago
"Rights, justice, inclusion, equality and respect are for people, not for beliefs and parallel legal systems. To safeguard the rights and freedoms of all those living in Britain, there must be one secular law for all and no religious courts."
Regardless of the alleged limited role of sharia under the Arbitration Act, the very fact of a separate function being allowed (Jewish family courts also operate) is an affront to equality under the law of the land. No good will come of it.
jeuandavidjones 1 year ago
I don't think the problem is all the foreigners, it's the muslims, at least it is here in Sweden, a white women got raped here by muslim men who didn't wear a veil...I think when people here in Europe say there's a failure in multiculturism, they actually mean FAILURES OF MUSLIMS integrating.
sxehitman007 1 year ago
Going to have tho whole heartedly agree with Thunderscartch66. For example, look at England and Sharia law being accepted there now, when Sharia law should not even exist at all, in their own lands OR in anybody else's.I am of the opinion that Multiculturalism is a failed lab experiment not because of the minority of immigrants that really do want to escape oppression and start a better life but for those radicals who bring about a bad taste in my mouth when I hear about Multiculturalism
NihilistRyan 1 year ago
@NihilistRyan You realize that Sharia is for civil cases only, and only when both parties agree to it, right? Do you think the radicals are the majority? Nobody likes radicals, and they should be able to be removed, but this isn't all about radicals. This is about the majority of immigrants, very few of which are trying to force change.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar I'm not endorsing Ryan's comment and not an expert in UK law, but keep in mind that civil law generally encompasses contracts of all sorts, marriage, divorce, and custody agreements, inheritance, and much else. I can easily imagine many women "agreeing" to follow sharia law in a prenuptial, before discovering husband's an abusive monster and fights all rights the wife might seek through a divorce. Just something to ponder.
RomeoGrrl 1 year ago
@RomeoGrrl That's a good point, however remember that if EITHER party opts out, then they would go by standard British civil law. The pre-nup angle though is one I had not considered. I would think and hope that the pre-nup would not supersede British law in this case. I doubt it could.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
Immigration is almost always a problem. Us and them, right? When the human race can grow out of its xenophobia, then we can mingle without fear and hate. Here in Norway, middle eastern people are feared/hated the most, solely because of Extremist Islam. WIthout Islam, we'd treat them with the same mild shifty eyes as the rest of the immigrants. I have no more or less love for immigrants than my own countrymen. I judge people on an individual basis, however, I realize politicians can't do that.
EquinoxOfTheGods 1 year ago
This video has been brought to you by the color orange.
Tully519 1 year ago
What they mean with multiculturalism has failed is exactly what you is talking about. These leaders are advocating that western laws should be enforced in west-europe, and that other cultures and religions is excuse for barbarism.
applemost 1 year ago
Define Multiculturalism (please somebody preferably from the UK or Europe).......because i don't understand ..........is being against Multiculturalism being against anything cultural that didn't derive from Europe
tynitty516 1 year ago
@tynitty516 Basically, the appreciation, acceptance or promotion of multiple cultures. Sounds good on paper doesn't it? The problem is, that "only" works if all cultures r willing to engage in this & don't have an ulterior agenda taking advantage of the hosting culture.
It is not so much as being against multiculturalism, it is more the case that what was been pushed by the liberal left over the past decades has failed. We now have parts of cities in the UK where there is zero integration.
PacalB 1 year ago
@PacalB OK. noted im just trying to get an idea of what people in the UK are talking about because i grew up in New York and we have Chinese culture, Afro-Carribean,Hispanic,Russian,Jewish,Greek,Indian..... seems pretty fine to me......there is no-one on YOUTUBE complaining about New York's Multiculturalism problem. a free society can co-exist with Multiculturalism.......
tynitty516 1 year ago
@tynitty516 As I said, sound's good on paper & if u have a strong system backing it it works, the states there is as example. You really need to see or at least inform yourself to what is happening over here to get a good understanding. That said I've been pushing a number of documentaries to look on this thread, take a bit of time out to watch them.
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
/watch?v=w4O-cqhPBWw
/watch?v=9wG6p2LjtBc
PacalB 1 year ago
@PacalB I'm not questioning your claims or doubting anything you say. My point was too clarify your definition of "Multiculturalism"......because when people in the states here term they think of San Francisco,New York,LA,.. diverse culture in cities. Harlem,Little Italy,China-town,Little Ethiopia being examples of pockets where different cultures co-exist ......it works well hence the large demand to live in those cities ........If people hated "this" they would move to say "Alabama"
tynitty516 1 year ago
@tynitty516 There is plenty of blending going on here in the UK still. You've only got to walk around London to see it in action. As I say, multiculturalism, the acceptance &/or promotion of multiple cultures at it's core is a great thing. The problem here was in the past on how it was sold to the general public, "Doors wide open immigration wise", this led to a massive influx of people, many of whom do not want Western culture ... cont.
PacalB 1 year ago
@tynitty516 ... do not want to integrate & if challenged on it automatically hit back with accusations of racism being brought against them. For many many years people just took it, they kept quiet and said nothing. That time is drawing to an end now, people are basically fed up. It's nothing to do with racism or an inability to appreciate other cultures, it is simply that people are tired of seeing the countries openness & hospitality abused.
PacalB 1 year ago
@tynitty516 Many of these areas have peoples that stem for poorer countries, whom seem to care very little that they have come to a western country that has the advantages of a modern society. What happens next is the ghettoization of these areas, the basic running down of the place as people whom have the money move away. The situation just gets worse. How do u educate those whom have spent most of their lives living in poor over populated parts of the world to change their basic daily habits?
PacalB 1 year ago
@tynitty516
In Europe multiculturalism is just a code word for the insidious tolerance of islamic perversities and inanities.
FluidDeconstructor 1 year ago
@FluidDeconstructor - Exactly. Spot on, you have no idea how much muslims are ruining Sweden, all the people from other racial backgrounds are helping us while the muslims feed off us...
sxehitman007 1 year ago
Great video Zaunstar and I agree 100%. Except for the Irish....fuck em
MrJmm999 1 year ago
just out of curiosity, have you ever lived in europe Zaunstar? because I think if you had, the answers to alot of your questions would become apparent. ppl are fed up with dealing with weeding out the few good from the majority-bad of immigrants in europe. try living with these ppl, taking the bus/metro with them. doing your shopping beside them. you might be less quick to defend them after you see the problems becoming routine/daily things.
thunderscratch66 1 year ago
@thunderscratch66
I'm living with "these" people, shopping with them, etc. Had no problem with any immigrant ever. Granted, i live in the south of germany where things aren't as bad as in some other parts, but still, what problems are you talking about specifically?
tbk2010 1 year ago
@tbk2010 The problems are so numerous that it would be hardly worth listing here. I have a better question for you. Have you ever considered that your skin complexion (along with the "good" location you mentioned) are contributing factors in why you have experienced less (or no) actual problems with *these ppl*? Have you ever seen that crappy movie "Demolition man"? If you don't fall into the stereotypic "civilized white chump" category, its not suprising that mr. snipes hasnt noticed you.
thunderscratch66 1 year ago
@tbk2010 Specifically?Well this kind of problem going on, watch.
Mosques?
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
Schools?
/watch?v=w4O-cqhPBWw
/watch?v=9wG6p2LjtBc
There r many good things that come out of many cultures from around this planet, likewise there r bad things. The above video clips r the bad, a place where western [secular] culture & Islamic dogma clash. It is an issue that we all "are" going to have to deal with.
PacalB 1 year ago
@tbk2010 Islam is, by nature, incompatible with western democracy and secular humanism. Its one or the other. You can't be a little pregnant.
PacalB 1 year ago
@thunderscratch66 I've visited about a dozen countries in Europe on four separate trips, amounting to about six weeks in all. The majority of immigrants are bad? Taking the bus/metro with them is bad why? Can you elaborate on how they are impacting your life?
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar It's one of those things that if you haven't seen it, felt it, if you don't know what it is, it's not really worth explaining. If you haven't lived it, then you're whole opinion is based on practially nothing. It's like a german guy spending 6 weeks in NYC and coming back thinking that now HE has it ALL figured out. the more I think about it, with all *respect* I wonder if the subject you decided to post on has all to do with getting more views, nothing more, nothing less....
thunderscratch66 1 year ago
@thunderscratch66 I make videos because I enjoy it. I spent hours making a video when I had 13 subscribers. Heh. Beyond that, why can't you explain what you mean? Do you feel uncomfortable being in a train car where you are not the majority? I've been in that situation and it has not bothered me. I never said I had it all figured out, but I can almost guarantee you that I could ask some of your neighbors about it and they would say that it doesn't bother them. Do you think that's the case?
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar our neighbors are of all ages, senior citizens, 20 year olds, 30 somethings, and one thing everyone has noticed is that on the street corners all the drug dealers here are arabs, who snear and start problems with all ppl passing who arent like them (white jogging pants that are tight at the ankle, showing socks, new sneakers that look like they have hydraulics in them...etc). tbc:
thunderscratch66 1 year ago
@Zaunstar I don't need to be the minority in a train. It only takes 2 or 3 arabs to bring a train full of *whities* to a point of hesitation or even panic. thing is, most *civilized* ppl hesitate, think of their family, and the consequences of their retaliation, and do nothing. while I can assure that i do not partake in such sheeping, it's all too common in europe. I think if I look around I can give you a few links that represent this routine....
thunderscratch66 1 year ago
@Zaunstar I couldnt find this on youtube w's liveleak.com/view?i=2c5_1258533132
this is DAILY life in any public place, just need to be in the wrong place/right time (quite easy to do actually.....) but i can show you 1 link, or 20, what does it change, you'll just think i'm trying to give you MY impression of things.... anyway, THIS is how many many ppl see things, wether you believe it or not...
thunderscratch66 1 year ago
@thunderscratch66 I live in Europe and I say that what Zaunstar says in this video is correct, and that you're full of shit ...as would pretty much everyone I know here.
Now where's your argument about "you wouldn't say that if you lived in Europe" gone?
ZarlanTheGreen 1 year ago
@thunderscratch66 Where is your evidence? Show me some footage of your no good immigrants behaving poorly
TheBlackrobin 1 year ago
Perhaps off topic: if a culture is defined as a a set of noncritical things such as food, clothes, etc then surely any nation can benefit from multiculturalism due to the increased variety in food, fashion, etc.
However, some aspects of different cultures are incompatible. For instance, you cant have both sharia law and western laws, freedom of speech and anti-blasphemy laws, etc.
I guess a clear distinction needs to be made between non-critical choices and critical laws.
PowerOfTheMirror 1 year ago
@PowerOfTheMirror I generally agree with those statements.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
I argue with other foreigners here in Tokyo all the time about imposing one culture upon another. I think what's happening is a weird case of domestic culture shock. We seem to be just as aware of the variety of ethnicities in the West now as ever before. Although we have so much information about other cultures at our fingertips, the onus is still upon us personally to think critically.
To think "Multiculturalism failed" is ridiculous. Multiculturalism can't fail because that's all we've got.
YamanoteSensei 1 year ago
Government should be run culturally agnostic. Laws should never be made to enforce normative behaviors. If a society agrees to obey those two rules then it would not matter how diverse the cultures are within it.
jessemaurais 1 year ago
But halal slaughter is entirely consistent with our highest values! Now, trying to sell beef that 10% of the population won't buy, that's unthinkable.
birkett83 1 year ago
Great video man, excellent!!
lilililililililiilii 1 year ago
Multiculturalism is not a failure and the point is it is bound to happen in the future how long can mankind try and separate themselves? Cultures will as they always have mix and combine and of course there will always be problems but you cannot try and keep it from happening because it will not work. Its a struggle that has to happen
WarMasterX6 1 year ago
The problem is the way that it's done. Rather than everybody mixing and learning from each other and sharing ideas, children are segregated in their own schools based upon religion, they're stopped from mixing with children of other races and backgrounds and religions, and what you basically end up with is lots of monocultures rather than a multiculture.
And that's a recipe for disaster as fundamental values and beliefs clash and prejudice grows usually based upon crap in the media.
oldeubank 1 year ago
Stephen Harper refuses to address multiculturalism. - Canada
GodlessManitoban 1 year ago
@Xerotaerg Well tell me which definition you're using, and tell me why it's wrong. I'm all about discourse, so I'm happy to discuss it. If I were that arrogant, I think I wouldn't bother, would I? My subscribers I think can attest to this. So tell me where you believe I'm wrong, and let's talk about it.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
#2 The problem with multiculturalism is quite simply that a culture cannot be kept alive if it is to be properly integrated with the rest of society and other cultures. If you're an immigrant, a lot of the time you didn't need to learn the language or integrate properly because the government simply gave you money if you couldn't find a job, reducing the need to learn a language and finding work. Any time one pointed out that immigrantwelfare could lead to this, you were just called a racist.
Slug99 1 year ago
The problem with multiculturalism in Europe was that the government was actively trying to NOT deal with the situation as you said they should have. The entire ideology of multiculturalism was basically that if you said anything negative about foreigners, you were just a racist isolationist who shouldn't be in public office.
Slug99 1 year ago
@Slug99 Yes, it's not too late to address extremism though. I would like to see someone that can defend their way of life in those countries to these people. Hell, I'll do it for them in a video if they pay me to do it. Hehheh.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
I'm not sure what these "multiculturalism has failed" idiots think the alternative is... monoculturalism?
jussts 1 year ago
Merkel is by no means a conservative.
Slug99 1 year ago
Did you conveniently omit an example of "change that is counter to our values"? And are you saying if these european leaders were more honest and blunt about refusing to accommodate foreigners it would be accceptable, consistent , and not bigoted?
spiritualbully 1 year ago
@spiritualbully Yes, if they were honest about it and explained why that is counter to our values to do what *some* (not all) immigrants is proposing, it would be a lot easier to accept and understandable than simply railing against foreigners.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar OK, now WHAT IF, the decisions made by leaders and people were not the same people today, so the people upset today are simply saying "we were wrong, if we didnt make the mistakes ourselves, some of us before us did, so its time to rethink whether we are right about multikult"?
You seem to say if you made a decision in the past you can't regret it or be upset later.
spiritualbully 1 year ago
Nicely put, Zaunstar :)
Hehe - "It's not you, it's me."
bushonomics 1 year ago
I think you're missing the point a bit, but that may just be my misunderstanding. I think the general point we should take from the recent backlash against multiculturalism is that tolerance can only get us so far, and that new models for understanding our interactions with "the Other" are needed today, like perhaps interculturalism.
BoStevoD 1 year ago
@BoStevoD Perhaps that's true, but if these leaders are trying to say this, they are not being very coherent.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
seems to me american multiculturlism sometimes becomes stagnant until we pick new enemies....to me, thats very sad.
TheAist 1 year ago
This guy doesnt even care if the caucasians became extinct,you cant argue with someone like that.
Whatever4690 1 year ago
@Whatever4690 It doesn't matter to me. Caucasians aren't a species by ourselves, so who cares if we become extinct. The silver lining to caucasian extinction would be no more white supremacists actually.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Your a george galloway clone.
Whatever4690 1 year ago
Factual error: Germany is not facing an economic crisis similar to the US. Germany is experiencing a boom right now.
What Merkel was refering to, is the German approach of the 90s, which failed.
It was viewed as arrogant (and borderline-fascist) to persuade newcomers to integrate into society. This resultet in immigrants forming sub-societies, living in enclaves or ghettos within German cities. These enclaves have there own laws and languages and shut themselves of from the rest of society.
DanteD83 1 year ago
@DanteD83 Yes, I know they are doing better already. I agree that the last part of your statement is a problem, but it can be addressed without painting all immigrants that way.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@DanteD83 wrong, they dont have their own laws, they just have alot of undereducated cavemen living in them, they still get fucked by the regular law if they act on it.
schmendriks 1 year ago
I'm not sure that these conservative leaders are all bashing foreigners when they attack multiculturalism. In some European countries, the liberal leaders have bowed so deeply to wishes of incoming minorities, that many people native to the country have already had their rights stepped on.
I don't live there; so I'm working off second hand knowledge. But, if what I'm told is accurate, they aren't overreacting. They're just finally taking action about a real problem.
t3tsuyaguy1 1 year ago
@t3tsuyaguy1 Well, if these leaders would address the actual items that the foreigners are putting on the table, that would strike me as more honest, rather than the lumping together of groups. I DO believe they need to be more forceful in saying no to some things actually, as I mentioned in the video.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar I definitely agree with your suggestions. You described a clear and open message. "This is what we won't accept/change and why. We can talk about working on anything else." I really wish that there was someone in power advocating that approach. Unfortunately it seems too many people think was have no choice, but to talk about these things in extremes of abasement or abject rejection.
t3tsuyaguy1 1 year ago
Very good vid. You have to wonder about the strength of someone's values if they can't handle them being questioned.
Eminemno1fan 1 year ago
What Multiculturalism means is 2 or more cultures living along side, respecting each other, not imposing on each other, being friendly and having a healthy relationship. This is true for many cultures, but not Islam. and that's what the leaders are referring to: Islam refuses to be integrated, it refuses to co-exist peacefully, it's followers poses ridiculous demands on their host-country to convert to shari'a (Which is intrinsicly evil) and are grossly overrepresented in the crime statistics.
narutobeast90 1 year ago
Cameron, Merkel and Sarkozy were all referring specifically to Islam when they cite multiculturalism. In Europe and Britain the islamists are most definitely taking the piss. I agree with the comments by the leaders, all other ethic/religious groups have integrated well without having to lose their customs and recipes. Islam hasn't.
FrankCleocuz 1 year ago
have you seen pat condells latest video? i mean he makes some points on why multiculturalism fails :s even though i like it
AsgardProductionsSE 1 year ago
So your saying sam harris,thunderfoot and christopher hitchens are wrong?,you obviously dont give a shit about anyone else but yourself,and you harp on about this stuff to make yourself feel superior to everyone else around you.
Whatever4690 1 year ago
Specifically when they are talking about multiculturalism failing they are talking about a massive push for immigrants as cheap labour that went wrong, German Turks, English Pakistanis, Netherland North Africans/Turks have higher crime rates and higher unemployment. Oddly enough 2nd and 3rd gen citizens perform even worse then 1st gen from a economic perspective.
The failure is not in the concept of multiculturalism but in the ability to integrate very large minorities in a short time
deathByStupid 1 year ago
@deathByStupid I understand your point. Why would these leaders not talk about it in those terms though, if that's the real issue? It's puzzling. Also, I would be curious to see those statistics on 2nd and 3rd gen citizens. Feel free to send it to me if you can find it.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar official stats are tough cos its mostly in german, but the gap between native germans and immigrants is pretty huge
40 percent of immigrants go to the lowest level of german school twice the amount of natives.
19 percent fail to get there diplomas upon leaving school compare to 8 percent for germans
Unemployement is roughly 50-100% higher for unemployement.
Turkish immigrants performed the worst out of all immigrants, and this is 50-60 years after the immigration occured.
deathByStupid 1 year ago
The problem isn't multiculturalism, rather it's the interpretation of multiculturalism. The extremists have taken over the discussion and call any questioning of extremism racism. Multiculturalism needs to be taken back.
shirehorse9 1 year ago
Fluffy fantasy,you are risking the decline of england,all high and mighty until people begin begging and robbing to survive,we must protect our interests and seriously reduce immigration.
Whatever4690 1 year ago
You can't deport people in the UK if the country has the death penalty, or if the person's life is in danger.
When people talk in the UK of multi-culturalism being a problem they're specifically talking about Islam. All religions are pretty much annoying. I think people shouldn't be allowed to send their children to faith-based schools (that's all religions). If people want to fill their children's head with crap, they can do it after school, using their own money.
mousegeek 1 year ago
Comment removed
mousegeek 1 year ago
I am completely okay with multiculturalism as long as the other cultures share or even accept our core values and cultural principles. The problem is, that certain cultures are strightly opposed to our core ideas: freedom of speech, freedom of individual, equality, ect.
I see no problem with right wing politicians being against such cultures, as I am not far left enough to believe that ALL cultures can live side by side in the same society, and yet the society can remain functional.
Wulfshade 1 year ago
@Zaunstar, you seem a bit naive there. Imagine a stealth jihad? Okay, lets try the UK for example, please take a moment of your time to review these links if you will.
Mosques?
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
Schools?
/watch?v=w4O-cqhPBWw
/watch?v=9wG6p2LjtBc
Cont:
PacalB 1 year ago
@Zaunstar U see, some groups feel our democracy here in the West is to be milked and used, they have their own agenda set in motion. Cultures where it is okay to cut off a female child's clitoris or stone/hand people for being gay, or cut off limbs as punishment is not acceptable in my eyes. So I would say, not all cultures are equal ... and this is where multiculturalism begins to fail. I look forward to hearing your comments and opinions on the video links and anyone else's for that matter.
PacalB 1 year ago 4
@PacalB All cultures are not equally moral; That is absolutely true. But it's beside the point, a multicultural society does not mean a society that bows down to every culture and changes the law. This idea only apply to peaceful cultures, giving them the freedom to do whatever the hell they want (provided no law is broken).
Female genital mutilation is still illegal and will not change because a fringe group of a broad Islamic culture request it.
I can however see where you're coming from.
TubeTest42 1 year ago
@TubeTest42 Your mistake is that it's a fringe group that are the religious extremists. These ideas are mainstream. Sharia courts are already trying criminal cases in Britain such as the beating of women and a stabbing. It's entirely reasonable that they would be adjudicating genital mutilation cases.
shirehorse9 1 year ago
@shirehorse9 I had not heard this, that some criminal cases were being tried in sharia courts. Can you send me the link? I have heard this claim before, but not found evidence from any legitimate media.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar I believe the articles were on the "One Law for All" site. Another source might be The Muslim Canadian Congress.
shirehorse9 1 year ago
@PacalB
Wasn't this covered between time codes 1:28 and 2:01 ?
akaei0 1 year ago
@akaei0 No, it wasn't & this is why I think Zauntar here is being slightly naive. The multiculturalism part only works if both sides r willing to blend, guess what? Not only is one side not willing to blend but it sees that willingness blend as a weakness that can be exploited.
Hence why I offered the following video clips of the UK
Mosques?
/watch?v=yY9IM-BmTdw
w w w O metacafe O com/watch/4798670/dispatches_undercover_mosque_the_return/
Schools?
/watch?v=w4O-cqhPBWw
/watch?v=9wG6p2LjtBc
PacalB 1 year ago
@akaei0 Also, I say this ... maybe u should delve into this subject a bit deeper akaei0, educate yourself on what is actually happening behind the scenes in the UK/EU & such. Add the willingness to bend over backwards with abused multiculturalism & it sets a fertile ground for 1 hell of a mess. We r starting to see this & this is why there r those looking to shut it down. Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bottle, what will happen next only time will tell.
Watch: vimeo 0 com/17916558
PacalB 1 year ago
@PacalB
I'm going to largely concede the point because I don't really know what "multiculturalism" is. It sounds more like civil coexistence than blending. But maybe it's something else. But if two tribes can agree on what is permissible and what is not it then becomes a point of consequences for the impermissible. If they cannot agree then that would not be civil coexistence.
akaei0 1 year ago
@PacalB I watched one of the schools ones. That's a perfect example of a situation where they could easily step in with a number of laws and shut it down. I have no issue with that. Release that type of video, and I think they wouldn't get much opposition.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar A shame u didn't have time/chose not to view the other clips, at least in part. I think it paints a clear picture of what is actually going on behind the scenes. I mean, how many here normally visit their local mosques or Islamic faith schools? & when someone is sent in with a hidden camera this kind of thing is seen to be happening in the videos? Not only this, it is being actively funded by the likes of the Saudi's all across the EU? Ur stealth jihad jibe there? Look at the facts.
PacalB 1 year ago
@PacalB I only have so much time. I'm working. *:-P I'm sure there are some things that need to be looked at, and I'm sure there are some terrorists in their number. I would actually categorize that as "actual jihad", since this isn't the "political Islam" that Pat and others talk about. Our main argument here is about scale and about how "close" they are to "taking over". I'm sure there is a lot that we otherwise agree on.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar Understood about not having time being @ work, I know all about that. :) So then, when u do have time take a moment, see what is actually going on. As for it getting to the point of "taking over", that is way off fortunately, but do we really want it to get anywhere near that? I posted a link to here earlier: vimeo 0 com/17916558
Watch it, its of a prt of London called Tower Hamlets, a good example how radical Islam is willing to use democratic methods to get control of an area.
PacalB 1 year ago
It is sad to see that people trivialize multiculturalism to the variety of foods, and than saying because of that multiculturalism is a good thing.
When we talk about mc we in almost all cases talk about the poisonous and fascist ideology of islam and its adherents.
Sure, christianity has the same kind of ideology but it has been thoroughly tamed, islam hasn't been tamed in the slightest.
FluidDeconstructor 1 year ago 11
@FluidDeconstructor christianity being tamed? I don't really agree with that statement believe me when you've witness the insanity that today's christians revolve around you'll doubt it too watch fox news that will about sum it up-oh or even better got to a pentecostal church most of those people are bat-shit-crazy and more worse is that they brutally force those crazy beliefs on small children. christianity has a long way to go before being thoroughly tamed and even then I don't think it can be
UbinTimor 1 year ago
I was geering up to comment but you pretty much said what I was going to say.
ProgressiveAudio 1 year ago
Funny how majorities have a fear of minorities, perhaps they have inferiority complexes
jia546 1 year ago
Lol. Loved that ending.
LazySundayClub 1 year ago
Zaunstar, I feel that alot of the world hasn't found the ultimate truth that we shouldn't care at all about a person's culture, sex, sexual orientation, race, or skin color but rather judge people on their character and how fat they are.
CliffM85 1 year ago
Bad religion, and other bad ideas: criticize them.
Elvisdogg 1 year ago
@Elvisdogg Couldn't agree more. I have no issue with criticizing bad ideas, and Islam has plenty of them, as do many other groups.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
Mutli-culturalism is a great thing. What would I do on a Friday night if the amazing Thai family restaurant around the corner wasn't there to cook my dinner!! lol *jokes*. Everyone just needs to get along! Learn from each other! :)
karmagirl74 1 year ago 7
@karmagirl74 Could I learn from you sometime? *;-)
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@karmagirl74 Tell that to the muslim community. Naa it´s been tried and has failed globally. I mean, I have said the muslim oath of affirmation or whatever it is called, though I´m still an atheist. And about 60% of all danish muslims think that I should be hanged in the nearest tree for that, if only they had the power. So you see, there can be no debate or any course set on agreement. Just a show of power that the sane of us will not let any such random murdering happen.
JRBendixen 1 year ago
Very well put, Zaunstar! We've been having these political discussions in our country and in particular my province.
MtlRedAtheist 1 year ago
Nailed it on the head, once again! Multiculturalism works JUST FINE when the society everyone is moving into has some testicles and abandons the PC bull in favor of, you know, putting their overall cultural values of inclusion, diversity, equal opportunity, democracy, free speech, secularism, etc. ahead of all the other cultural values being slung around. But politicians are politicians. They'd rather get on their knees for the minority culture and call it quits than say "Sorry, no Sharia Law!"
Xenobiologist1 1 year ago
you fricken rock
epshot 1 year ago
Why wasn't I subscribed to you? I used to be. Did you block me?
CappitranoBellephant 1 year ago
@CappitranoBellephant Heh. No! Why in the world would I block you? I have zero people on my block list. Re-subscribe. *:-)
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar I did I was shocked because I usually have nothing but good things to say about you and you are indirectly responsible for me making any videos at all.
CappitranoBellephant 1 year ago
Are you actually so ignorant, that you do not know that multiculturalism is generally understood as the positive argument that the more a society is culturally mixed the better.
Further, I´m against it. Because to be a multiculturalism is by definition the acceptance that to be humanist is just as retarded as the muslim promotion of wife beating, child beating, censorship, death penalty fan and torture by circumcision.
Are you really that daft?
JRBendixen 1 year ago 2
@JRBendixen I had never heard that definition before. If that's really what it is though, then I would generally say it's not really a goal. I appreciate diversity, but don't require "X degree" of diversity as some kind of "goal".
Do you equate multiculturalism with tolerating those things that you listed? See, I never have seen it that way at all, and this is why there is this divide over the term.
Zaunstar 1 year ago
@Zaunstar You could have looked it up on wikipedia. I admit that it says nothing about my example. Rather it states that different cultures has equal value. Rater my example is about the actual mensurable result applied to societies. If taken to serious as with almost anything the result become, well insane.
I feel inclined to tell you that for example circumcision is culturally based, ie. it is culture by any definition. So is any practice of religion.
JRBendixen 1 year ago
@JRBendixen As religion is culture, hmm lets try an experiment of mixing religions. Ahh forget it, I do not even have to make an example as you know them all. They are on the front page news all time, so why bother.
JRBendixen 1 year ago