Quarter Horse Training Shortcuts can Cripple in Connecticut

[JMQTRS]

@MaizieandMindy LOL, this is a laughing matter, all these comments are absolutely ridiculous and brainless. The grey in the video is in distress from anxiety from being restained NOT pain, do YOU know anything about horses?!. Pathetic is all I have to say to anyone who thinks this is an issue

[JulietSmeeth15]

pardon my french, but what the fuck is going on here? people need to stop trying to be so "innovative" with their training techniques... there's a reason why the best trained horses become the best trained: because they are trained properly, by methods that have been proven to be correct, by thousands of successful horses, horse people and trainers. the thought process "rules are meant to be broken" should never, ever be applied in a situation involving horses.

[greeneyedkriswithak]

Please explain how this tying up causes hock damage? I am confused.

Do you possibly mean the "peanut rolling" movement causes hock damage?

[greeneyedkriswithak]

I understand that this video was posted in order to gain some compassion towards the cruelties that can be in the horse world (of which there are plenty), but you have to know what you are talking about before you will gain any compassion towards your cause. I know what you are thinking of and this is not an example of that. The tying is done WAY higher than these horses, who look like they are being taught to tie. It's not high. Peanut roller does not equal rollkur. It's actually the opposite.

[broodmare25]

First off, Rollkur and peanut rolling are two completely different things...which the poster of this video does not seem to know. It seems to me that these horses are just going through a tieing lesson.

[mare1979]

The heads aren't unnaturally high. Most likely this was done to teach the horses about being tied to something and to wait patiently. The reason you run it up to the rafters to so the horse can't get leverage on the rope by sucking back and learn to suck back to get free (which is a very dangerous thing for the horse and those around it.)

[horsegirlmj]

Western pleasure, dressage, hunters, polo, jumpers whatever. Training methods in all disciplines range from humane and compassionate to cruel and callous. This is just one example of people having more money than brains and heart put together. It also shows the true character of the horse. Infinately forgiving. Were I that horse, the first person who came into the ring to unhook me would get a hoof to the head in a second.

[JMQTRS]

Have you ever stopped to think of how much danger a horse is in when it's tied loose or with even 2 feet of rope. Or do you even know conformationally where a horse holds its head naturally. This is not abuse, it's tieing a horse at a proper length to stop it from tangling itself in it's own rope. "Hanging" horses is a complete myth made up by people like you with lack of knowledge. The barn owner and trainers could sue you for slander.

[Apollostowel]

As for the "the horse would step on the rope and freak out OMG!" Grow up! Horses can think! Let them step on the rope.

[Apollostowel]

Because horses are too dumb to know how to carry their own heads. People are assholes, yeah I'm sure the horse thinks it's awesome. But hey, go win your ribbons because it means so much more to you than the horse does. Sell the horse on when it stops winning. That's all that matters, right? Right.

[phantom81535]

This technique comes from the early CA Spanish riders who believed in "tie em high." The point was for the horse to learn to move the rear / front of the body as the operatively energy source. It was used for very short periods (5-15min), and under the supervision of the trainer. I've used this training method for many years. It is not injurious, teach the animal the freedom and power of movement and does it safely. And, without the confusion of a rider!

[TheRobynandColeTeam]

Poor ceiling safety...

[ambest3]

it is't "normal" to hang a horse whit chaing to the roof and let is stand there in an hour, it more normal to tie a horse to a rope in a easy tie so it can get out quick if something happens in the wall, and u don't let it stand there for an hour, maby to brush it or something but not an hour.

[waltonwoods]

The stupidest reason to do *anything* is because "everybody does it." Think different

[MrUreche2007]

These horses are tied with their heads high enough that they are not in danger of getting a leg over the rope, but not so high as to cause strain on their necks. Since they are not tied to a wall there is no chance of them getting hurt on the wall. This is a simple technique. When the horse gets antsy he does nothing but stress himself and tire himself out. When he stands quietly his job is easy. This is a simple case of making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. Basic training.

[MrUreche2007]

Came across this and wanted to comment even though it has been an idle discussion for a while. Nothing about this is abusive, and has nothing to do with head carriage under saddle. These horses are being taught to stand quietly and patiently. Melnor you mentioned several times that crosstieing a horse is safer. You are WRONG! I am an AQHA trainer and have seen horses on several occasions freak out in cross ties, suck back, flip over, get a leg over the cross tie, etc.

[jjahcspringer5]

awful :(

[paintedponiez]

For all you people that think this is to make a horse want to drop its head or it is abuse. It isn't.. They tie them like that to teach a horse how to tie. If they pull back they wont be able to break there necks if they freak out. It doesn't hurt them the ropes aren't strangling them. You need to do your homework before you say its abuse.

[AnimalLeftist]

Western peeps seem to like their horses broke to dead. There really is something seriously wrong with people who do this.

[painthorselover101]

@AnimalLeftist hey, not all western riders are cut from the same cloth, ok? i'm a western rider and i would never do stupid shit like this. how would you feel if i said all english riders are know-it-all bitches that cant ride for crap?

[AnimalLeftist]

@painthorselover101, I'd agree with you, as many of them are;)

[TheRobynandColeTeam]

@painthorselover101 Agreed I do all disciplines mostly english, but when I go for western rides on my moms horse I always find the horses are better ridden, treated and taken care of than most english schools, maybe yeah, theres no dust in polo and dressage barns but I'd say 90% of the western barns are much nicer than english barns food tack and care wise. Western people need a break, just cuz this one place does it doesnt mean they all do, certainly I've never seen anything like this.

[monteras100]

I doubt this is abuse or anything to do with rollkur. It looks to me as if the horses are simply being taught to stand patiently without fidgeting i.e. 'switch off when tied'. If not tied relatively high, they could get the rope wrapped around their neck & get seriously hurt or killed. It may not be everybody's chosen method (nor mine), but the horses are not visibly distressed or demonstrating pain. No offence uploader, but the horses look well cared for to me, with no evidence of abuse.

[OzCowgirl]

WTF is this? Lazy bastards tying horses' heads up instead of taking the time to build trust with proper training techniques so the horse drops his head willingly. People that do this shouldn't have horses. Not only is this dangerous, horses NEED to drop their heads and keep their heads los for their sinuses to drain properly, or they can get fluid on the lungs and pneumonia. Effing MORONS.

[OzCowgirl]

WTF

[rilndrmlrh]

I have a horse, sold for 600 at auction. The breeder was so enraged he refused to allow her papers to go with her. I don't care though, I got a really gorgeous horse that moves better than most I've seen. WITHOUT doing this!

[rilndrmlrh]

Good breeding and TIME while training result in a good head set. If you have a young horse who doesn't travel in the pasture with it's head correct I don't care how nice it's pedigree looks DON'T use it in the breeding program or show it. Sterilize it and sell it to someone for some other discipline or just for a riding horse.

[blahmeme]

how at all is this mentally stimulating for the horse? he has no "job"! it's so pathetic to see people resort to this and then call themselves "trainers" or even scarier still, "teachers". I have an idea, let's put a bull-ring through their noses and then tie them up to the ceiling, forcing their necks into a spine-pinching position. afterward, let's add a 90lb backpack, back pinched, and give them a metabolic workout and say, well you looked "pretty" doing it.

[ylg008]

mentaly ill people...poor horses

[Equestrian08]

I knew there had to be something behind just how low they get some of the "peanut rollers" to drop their heads. You will find cruel trainers and cruel training methods in every breed and every discipline. Its so sad that people are not willing to properly train horses with no force, and humane training methods. This is outrageous.

[faliz02]

I hope there still not doin this now are they?

[paeffa]

I'm lost for words....so cruel....

[CanAmFam]

@devinbriann12 - I have three QH/Paints, including one old guy whose tail was injected to "carry it right" or some other pathetic excuse and whom I've spent years helping him be calm when handling his tail. Another one I spent a lot of time training out of peanut rolling. And the third - lucky for him - was born at my place, so no silly exploitative show habits to undo.

[charleywantcookie]

omfg i have been to this barn, as my friend rides there only because there is an indoor as eventers we shiver in horror with what they do to their horses

[Krickette]

While I agree that this is abuse and completely unnecessary, it is different than rollkur and hyperflexation

[lyndawittig]

It is abuse any way you look at it. I would love to see the person who uses this method with their head tied in the air.

[caballus100]

Co za idiotyzm i okrucieństwo. Jak można tak znęcać się nad żywymi i odczuwającymi istotami?!!! W każdej szkole jeździeckiej istnieje wynaturzenie. Ale, temu winni są tylko głupi ludzie!!!! This is crual!!!

[CanAmFam]

It's incredibly pathetic that people go to these extremes to win at a show. Plus the peanut rolling way of moving is just plain unnatural and unsafe. Why would it possibly be a good thing for a horse to move like it's going to fall on its face at any moment??? The stock horse world always get obsessed with weirdly impractical trends, and this is just another example.

[devinbriann12]

@CanAmFam Just saying, for you to stereotype the whole Stock Horse world is utterly rediculous. I have a QH. I don't tie my horse's fucking head to the cieling or anything similar.

[ginnysgems]

This is why I've NEVER shown horses and won't support the industry. I HATE Quarter horses with their noses in the dirt, they look like the "end of the trail" horse. Not to mention, if a horse with their head hung that low ever trips, guess whos going over the top of their head?? Whoever is in the saddle because I guarantee you they could not gather themselves back up if they tripped with their heads THAT low. And to purposely cripple them so they cannot hold their heads up? Sad and abusive.

[atarratrynkette]

It is done everywhere and is just horrible and abusive!

[rob1wifey]

Dumb and FULL of risk!

[chappysmom87]

@horseriderinmass Because its "patience training" doesn't make it any better. If the horse, spooks, tires, falls, stubbles etc it can break its neck. There are special rings made to be used in this type of training so that there is give should something happen....or a person can stand at the other end holding the end so its not tied solid to the wall encase something happens. If what you say is true, the trainer here doesn't have the patience they're trying to train into the horse!

[chappysmom87]

It would be more helpful in stopping it to identify what training stable is using/allowing this technique to be used at their facility! Please do tell! I live in CT and would make every attempt to spred around that this is happening because I hate to see stuff like this! IF you can't say outright allude to it---small town in eastern or western CT--large town mid NE Connecticut....SE CT get what I mean.

[getgorgeousnow]

@chappysmom87 ummmm you could prob look at any that train pleasure horses,, Apps,QH , or paints. Sad but true, an widely practiced not just in CT! 

[lskfls]

i would love to hang those people who treat horses or any other animal like this... THIS IS FUCKED UP......

[gmwwc]

This is not cool folks.

Cruelty takes many forms.

[JKMPaintandQuarters]

Is this a Western pleasure trainer that is training horses still? I haven't seen such ignorant acts since 1980... something. This is dangerous 'torture" techniques passed on from one imbred, to another. IMPROPER "technique" if you would call it that even. It's just abuse caused by human ignorance.SUCH torture would NEVER deem appropriate. I have "professionally tained Western pleasure AQHA/APHA for many years. And ~YUCK~ F%$#ING ignorant redknecks will always be here~ UNFORTUNATELY~

[Truthseeker1ify]

The Raymond training method should never be confused with the Melonie training examples that we have seen in the past in Moodus.

[MelnorFin]

Interesting comments lately that have nothing to do with the subject matter at hand. Note the vocal of the upload has been changed. My apologies for accidential inclusion of a horses name. However the owner of the horse identifies herself as Truthseeker below and apparantly endorses this treatment of her animal saying that he is happy and well adjusted. She offers an undocumented story of earlier abuse with her own animal as the reason for tolerating the current conditions.

[3124ification]

@MelnorFin 

[3124ification]

@MelnorFin It is very sad that this continues. Perhaps you should get the truth from JF about her horse knowledge. She owned a horse till her mid teens and then not another horse till mid 40's. How you can consider yourself a trainer and make these false accustions when you have no knowledge of the horse world. This is turely amazing. I feel bad for all of you who belive her and lie for her. Ask JF who her trainer was and then give her a call. She will tell you the truth.

[bridlelessgirl]

@MelnorFin I dont see anything wrong with this..

[3124ification]

I don't know how you feel but I have a hard time believing anything posted by someone who lies under oath in a court of law.

[Truthseeker1ify]

Those of you who don't know the circumstances of this situation shouldn't throw stones from your glass house. The best thing that ever happened to him was to come into the care of his current trainer. He is a happy well ajusted horse and I have the best relationship with him that I've ever had. I could stoop to her level and post a video of her horses padlocked in the barn standing in fetlock deep manure with no food or water....but I won't.

[Truthseeker1ify]

So isn't the truth amazing....the only abuse the black horse in this video experienced in his life was at the hands of the individuals making this video-they starved him and said they were following the vet prescribed diet but were not . Also, the only major and possibly career ending injury he ever sustained was also at the hands of the people making this video. It's an injury that he and his trainer struggle with daily.

[Jigsaw1314]

If you're one of the ones talking in the video, you're being pretty damn hypocritical.

[SassyMustang1980]

my question is.. are you boarding there? and if so WHY .. you boarding there just means you don't really care enough to take your horses else where, OR if your taking lessons there your paying them, to abuse their horses to go to shows.. either way.. if you disapprove.. then go elsewhere, turn the video into the local ASPCA .. but you being there taking lessons or boarding is just as good as doing it yourself by supporting it with your money.

[herewefly]

Just a question, do u ride there? If so why do you not do anything about this abuse?

[Equipeace]

What's the point? Why do you or the people doing this believe that this is a way to get a horse to drop his head? This is NOT an activity that would lead to that result, so I find it hard to believe it is the point. However, I do see how this could be a somewhat safe way of training a horse to be on a straight tie - notice the horse can't wrap himself around a poll, climb up a wall, or otherwise easily become entangled in the rope. But the belief this could lead to flexion? Seems Crazy.

[angelacmeyer]

this makes me sick.

[stubtaildogs2]

i simply do not understand wat is so imporant about a scrap of ribbon to some people to make them inflict pain on an animal who they are supposed to love and protect. I compete and show my dogs in obedience, rally and agility but i couldnt hurt them for a ribbon! i have plenty of ribbons b/c my dogs love to work and we have FUN!! why cant horses be allowed a natural head carriage and i dont mean ones that humans think is "correct"

[Truthseeker1ify]

@stubtaildogs2 That statement is kinda funny because the horse in the video is a saddlebred-that is his natural head carriage

[GoingForBroken]

These examples, while not examples of GOOD things, are pretty mild. Neiher is this "hyperflexion." You are correct, though, that the objective is to make the horse tired of holding his head up. A "Big Name Trainer (bnt)" was reported by at least one observer to have tied a horse in its stall so that it was forced to stand on the toes of its front hooves. He had put a square edged dowel through its mouth, presumably to make the mouth sore and tender and therefore more sensitive to the bit.

[perfectstorm101]

why dont you stop it

[velocabunting]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen in my entire life, is the purpose of this really to make them happier about dropping their heads? Are they western horses? I thought the western disciplines were steering away from peanut rolling? I don't get it, whoever is doing this is on glue, and clearly has neither the patience or the knowledge to be training horses, we should never have to resort to this...... pathetic.

[DerekEsty]

I mean come on, its tying a horse up! Everyone in the horse industry dose it. Its NOT HANGING, its tying them up. In a horses life time you know how many things its tied to? At show, trails, rodeos, every where, its kind of essential. Its not a big deal. I have seen thing done to horses 10 times worse then this, if you would like to know I will gladly share with you. Im not being rude, im just saying this is NO WHERE IN MY EYES HORSE ABUSE.

[MelnorFin]

Please if you have seen 10 times worse than this, please do share it with me and everyone else. Only by putting the abuses out there can they be stopped. This is hanging a horse, not tying it up. They take it out of the stall, bring it in and hang it for hours, and then stick it back in its stall. They lock the doors and watch carefully for people. If someone comes they scramble to get it all back to normal quickly. People don't hide when they are not doing something wrong.

[rob1wifey]

@DerekEsty... I don't think I have ever had a reason to tie my horses up with their head held in an unnatural position like that. Watching this vid I cringed at the thought of the horse spooking and the damage to the horse and building that could happen. In what situation have you had to tie (anchor) your horse with their head held high?

[VenusSavvy]

@DerekEsty I'm sorry but you have totally missed the point. Most horses being tied still have freedom to put their head where it is most comfortable. Tying them for the purpose of being in a forced position and to cause discomfort is abuse. They are tying the head high so they get fatigued and this causes pain so the horse will ride with his head in the dirt. If you have seen 10 times worse than this I wonder what type of horse people you associate with that this dose not seem cruel to you.

[DerekEsty]

Okay MelnorFin, whats the difference from tying the horses head up in the stall or in the arena? The arena is safer, but you make it sound like its fine to tie them in the stall for long periods at a time. So do you call tying your horse up after a long ride, for an hour while it dries; is that horse abuse? B/c many trainer do that, they have a 20 horse case load they work them and tie them up to dry. You are making this way more of and concern then it is. Sorry but thats my opinion!!

[MelnorFin]

I respect all opinions, so please feel free to state yours. However, notice that I indicated that I thought it was OK to leave a horse tied for up to an hour or so. NO, I do not call that abuse, and those horses are not in unnatural positions. That is the key here. These horses are being held in those positions for many hours, denied food and water, and left unattended for the sole purpose of creating pain to make them drop thier heads. Why is that necessary to them?

[jinxedcm]

What's wrong with just tying the horse to the wall where it has the ability to relax his/her head whenever? This looks to be a very stressful and tiredsome technique that serves only as a cheat.

[jinxedcm]

I'm not sure if this "technique" is actually used to create the Rollkur effect, however one could argue that having their heads held up like that for a few hours can definitely put a lot of strain on the neck and shoulder muscles. But, what I do want to argue is the fact that this is NOT humane. I agree with GSQtrHorses. Making a horse hold their head that high in order to teach "patience" is absolutely wrong! How do you not get that?

[GSQtrHorses]

There are may shortcuts out there in all of the riding disciplines that are not appropriate for the overall health of the horses involved, and it is just plain sad that humans are naturally impatient and skip the essential steps required to create a well rounded horse. THAT SAID- This video makes no sense why would someone tie a horse in the middle of the arena? why use the pulleys? why not tie the horse to the wall, like everyone else?

[kimimaru666]

I agree with DerekEsty this is not to get the rollkur effect on the horse, its to teach them patience and to be tied up. If u let the rope any further down, the risk is they run around and lift a leg too high, and get cought in the rope, and then break neck and leg... I would agree it is horse abuse if the horses feet werent touching the ground and it was hanging, but this is not abuse. You should read up on your info before you tell people what you think as if it were a given fact.

[MelnorFin]

In this clip the head of the horse was lowered when the "trainer" saw the filming.That part of the video is not shown here. This process is ONLY for causing sore muscles and that is all. It is to create rollkur. Creating proper carraige of a horse takes years of building muscle & balance. As long as we pay for instant results instead of investing in good riding instruction and knowledge about horses Rollkur will continue. Have we forgotten that we strive for a relationship with these horses?

[kimimaru666]

Ok MelnorFin if you are sertain that that was the use, then give me a video that shows that. I cannot rely on your saying that only.

OF course i find it far better to teach a horse stay and be tied in a NH way, and if possible the easiest and nicest way should be used to give the horse a nice relashionship with being tied up. But there are horses who do buck, and pull and fight being tied up, and There is a HUGE risk tying them to a wall, they can break their neck or a leg. H

[MelnorFin]

If I could give you more of the video, I would but it has the trainers face and details that would reveal what barn this is and I would be sued. I understand what you are saying. The point here is to tire the muscles out so that the head falls because of the pain and fatigue just like if we were forced to hold our bodies in an unnatural position for long periods of time. These horses are in their stalls 24/7 but for the hanging and training. No pasture time at all. No freedom. None. Sad.

[kimimaru666]

However I have a hard time believeing that this is used for rollkur, but if it is, then it is clearly wrong. Every horse has a spot that is more natural for them in how to carry their heads, some prefer low and others prefer high. In training a horse to gain balance and proper carriage, there are no short cuts In that i do def agree. However i feel that if u claim this is used for rollkur, and then claim the trainer lowered the horses heads, then how do i know WHAT hight the heads were, and What

[MelnorFin]

The FEI group met on Feb 9 andredefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horses neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. Because this practice is hidden in the barn, I doubt it will change, and it certainly won't change the poor animals being stalled all the time. Again, I do understand your comment on the parts of the video that I could not post.

[kimimaru666]

what the trainer wanted to gain from this.

I did not mean to cause any offence, however i was questioning their motives and the facts that u claim with this video.

[MelnorFin]

You have every right to question. If you wanted the horse to be patient and stand, put him on the cross ties. It would be alot easier and cheaper than this. Also, crossties would eliminate the ability of the horse to flip over and break it's neck. When you think about it, what other possible purpose could be served by this?

[kimimaru666]

My horse terms in english is kinda bad, so plz explain crossties, i`ve never heard of it. =/

[MelnorFin]

Sure. Crossties are pretty basic actually. The horse is clipped by the bridle or halter on one side to a hook on one wall, and on the other side to a hook on the opposite side of the isle. The horse stands there and gets tacked up, brushed, groomed, shoe or foot work, or basically whatever needs to be done. The horse is not going anywhere while it is tethered, but it is not uncomfortable, and it is as cheap as eye hooks in the walls, albeit strong ones. Nothing fancy.

[kimimaru666]

Ok i would never use that with a horse that is problematic. the iron clipped to the bridle or halter is too weak, and often gives in, and horses that have already learned that if they pull, they get free, dont give up, so they get free again and again, and the problem gets worse and worse, the less metal u can have and more fully attached halters and lead ropes the better, nothing that can break. But im talking about horses who have learned and are pro`s at breaking loose from it.

[MelnorFin]

I agree with you. Building patience is a team effort of trust beween the horse and rider, and no contraption can ever substitute for that. In fact, the pulley method would be worse for a problem horse as it would be even more likely to thrash about and injure itself, especially since they are tacked up while hanging.

[kimimaru666]

mm... I dunno i do partly agree with you. But part not. It would really depend on the horse. But A horse, known to kick, trash, pull and do EVERYTHING to get loose, I would never use Crossties with such a horse, and then rather have this methos as on the video, BUT NEVER TIE THE HEADS UP! The rope should be so the horse can hold its head normaly, and i would prefer to use a rubber band, so if the horse trashes about, it gets some part of "fight" the rubber band, gives in but not up.

[DerekEsty]

You obviously dont show qh. Fyi you get DQ if your horses head is to low, so NO, trainers DO NOT do this for the peanut rolling effect. In my opinion what I see in the video is NOT horse abuse. Its all part of the training process; the majority of stock breed trainers do this. WHAT I consider abuse is when they tie them so high their feet are not touching the ground for DAYS. With out food or water. THATS ABUSE, not this. And its not a shortcut, it teaches your babies patience and respect.

[MelnorFin]

Patience is learned by training with patience. It is done by using cross ties or tieing the lead for short periods at a time then increasing that period to UP TO an hr. You do not need pulley devices either. Why would anyone buy a pulley system let alone straddle the 2" x6"joists (2" side to the foot!)20 feet in the air just for training? Instead they would just use what is in every barn, a lead line or cross ties. Or are you saying that head hanging is acceptable training?

[kimimaru666]

Head hanging is definitly not acceptable, but they arent hanging in their heads to the cieling!

Not in this vid, and if the trainer as u said before lowered the horses down, then u need to write that in the description, not add it afterwards.

What did the trainer say he was training? did he say it was rollkur, or was it that you think it is rollkur. Thats all im wondering :/

No offense meant!! People are allowed to question things still, I think ^__^

[ginnysgems]

@DerekEsty REALLY???? Maybe YOU should try it for a while and see how it feels..... this is pathetic. AND why I've NEVER shown a horse in my life and NEVER will..... this is pure bullshit...... I guess you were one that used to inject their tails years ago too so they'd stand still in halter classes and not move their tails. I guess that's "acceptable" to you too?? What else is "acceptable"???  Sad and pathetic this is..... glad I don't own QH anymore......

[BonVuaz]

OMG.. :(((((((

[Truemee]

What is wrong with people! how can they make such things against them poor horses.. Idioter!

[farbschlacht]

I have never heard of this before. Is there a chance to show this to a vet or horse wellfare?

[mymileyhorse]

OMG I have never heard of this. I am so sad now for these beautiful animals. Stupid stupid people...

[LegsRN]

Isn't one of the features of a Freisian is that they hold their beautiful head on their thick strong neck up high to show elegance? If she wanted a head dragging quarter horse then she should trade him in. What a shame.

[LegsRN]

what is the pupose of this? what does it teach them? (if anything)

[MelnorFin]

This does not teach them anything. It makes thier muscles hurt so much that they drop thier heads in pain. The trainer gets extra points for having the horse carry thier head low.