Blimey. That's a lot of of information. Still, I appreciate your input. So, what I'm hearing is that evil is absolute and that it is a curse of free will. In elaboration, could you tell me whether there are psychological conditions that set up the 'curse'? For example, the 'prisoner's dilemma' and the 'tragedy of the commons'? Those will need looking up on wiki, but are invaluable to moral discussion. In those situations, what would Jesus do? No-one has found me an answer yet!
Cannibals, specifically the Kombai tribe of Papua New Guinea. They kill and eat men they believe are evil, known as sorcerers. But this act, to them, is morally good as they believe they are rescuing the souls of the sorcerer's victims, trapped inside his body. This is true. Surely your belief in God is as baseless as theirs of the sorcerer?
@tobo86 I would say that they are deceived and that that teaching is incorrect. Also, what is morally good is decided by the Authorized 1611 King James Bible (aka the Word of YHWH) no one and nothing else. Whats' morally acceptable isn't relative to time or place or circumstance. If you are confused and since we are in the New Testament, ask yourself this question, "What would Jesus have done?" And if you even know a slight bit about his character he probably wouldn't have cannbilized anyone.
@killerproctologist88 Please forgive me if I ask too many questions - I am simply curious in my path to truth. If I'm correct, I'm hearing that the Kombai people are morally wrong because their beliefs don't follow in line with James Bible. Why is he an authority on the matter? Surely there has been some kind of moral development since then? Other questions puzzle me such as: would Jesus have killed Hitler given the chance, knowing millions would die if he didn't?
@tobo86 All questions are welcome. The King James Bible is the authority because the KJV (King James Version) is the only Bible out there that hasn't been perverted by sinful men. All 500+ translations of the "new age" Bibles out there are based on the KJV. That's why it's called the, "Authorized Version" because it is the translation all other translations are based on HOWEVER it is imperative to note that this new translations DO NOT simply put the words of Yahweh into different terms, they
@tobo86 have added words, and taken verses away specifically the ones having to do with their personal sin OR they deny the deity of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus) or they change or omit verses that warn people not to change or omit verses. They think by perverting the word of Yahweh (Hebrew for God) they can somehow outsmart Him or something. Outta sight outta mind I guess? Anyway, to answer your question further, it is important to realize that Yahweh does not change....
@tobo86 Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not." Thus neither does His divine law that supersedes time and space, for He made time and space. What was evil to Yahweh 5,000 years ago is still evil to Him today and always will be. That's why the Bible never dies! It is timeless, eternal, just like Yahweh Himself! Anyway to answer the last part of your question, Yahweh isn't surprised by anything. He knew how Hitler was going to use his free will, that however does not give Yahweh legality
@tobo86 to change his freewill. You see, freewill is a gift humans naturally tend to turn into a curse. We can choose whether or not we want to follow Yahwehs rules or not and because of the condition of our fallen world we naturally don't want to follow Yahweh. It takes effort. Yahweh however used his foreknowledge of how Hitler was going to use his freewill to punish the Jews for rejecting Yeshua that led to his execution. (my personal opinion)
@tobo86 Especially because Yeshua came not to preach to the rightious, but the lost. Foolish Jews of the day mocked him for dining and speaking with the criminals and such but Yeshua replied unto them "A Dr. doesn't visit the healthy, a Dr. visits the sick" and the point is we're all spiritually lost until salvation so Yeshua came to save sinners and that goes for each and every person reading this comment. He can forgive you of every sin you could possibly commit the rest of your life.Get saved
If adam and eve ate the tree in the garden and then they became sinners and now mankind has sin. Then what about all the animals (they die, they have sex, they fight) so animals go to hell?...the animals never ate of the tree and they have the exact same traits as us.
the plain and simple truth is this evil exists becuase of transgression anything that goes against or is outside of GODs will creates evil. GOD can not create evil becuase that would be contridictory to his very nature of goodness GOD hates evil and has nothing to with it for with him the wicked can not dwell. GOD wants to save the wicked and the sinners becuase evil was never meant to be a part of this creation we were created to be good but, adams transgression brought evil into the world.
@Dadutta the hebrew word used for evil in that verse means calamity not malicious evil GOD can cause a calamity to come upon a nation as a result of a judgement for misdeeds but, GOD never has created evil that is something that came from the other side. Mankind has the power to create good and evil becuase we were created to be co creators on earth thats why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden so that we could fullfill that role in the far future.
@doctorw2 you have to understand that when we say God is the ultimate originator of all good and evil, we don't mean he has transgressed in any way, but is perfectly sovereign to do as he pleases. Who are we to limit his outstretched arm?
@Dadutta GOD did not create evil neither did he create evil in any way that must be made clear no one can put limits on GOD. GOD hates evil or otherwise he would not have been grieved at mans thoughts being evil all the time before the flood in the euphrates region the wrath GOD comes on people who are wicked but, yet GOD takes no pleasure in destroying people who are evil or wicked so that goes to show you that GOD is not the author of evil.
@doctorw2 A all-powerfull and all-knowing(past,present,future) GOD already knew evil would come into the world, but he doesnt prevent it? sounds strange to me.
@duecepitbull yeah it does becuase its not true GODs way is the way of probability he can predict an outcome before it happens and weigh in the factors of a possible outcome like an intelligent sentient being the garden of eden was an experiment to see which concepts another sentient being (man) would choose for himself.
if you're going to agree or disagree with Piper, use scripture. not opinions or logic. Ephesians 1:11 " we have obtained and inheritance, having veen predestined according to His purpose WHO WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL." this clearly states that all things, including evil are to carry out the counsel of His will.
Piper here effectively claims that the gross evil actions of paedophilic rapist murderers are designed by God to make Christ appear more glorious. What a ridiculous idea. Of course God created the potential for evil, but he instructs us to avoid evil. Piper claims God created evil actions - actually authored them, but is not responsible for this - quite bizarre really dont you think? he calls this inscrutability, but is failing to differentiate the permissive will of God, and his preferred will.
the choice to decide to follow a path of good or evil ... I'm sure God would love it if we all chose to do good but as we see every day many do not make that choice
@jeanpennie interesting point.. where does the bible teach free will? and how can our choices truly be free? we make no decisions without evil, social, human influences... God is the only one with true free will...
@BigG99 I don't claim to be a scholar of the Bible; free will is what I learned as a child and believe to this day. You are correct that outside influences can and do play a very big part; those who are weak and easily corrupted are much less likely to use good judgment in exercising their free will. The test of Jesus in the desert against the attempts at corruption by the Devil show that the choice to be good is ours if we are strong enough to deny temptation.
@jeanpennie well i think the whole point of ephesians chapter 2 is that we were wicked and totally unable to be godly on our own. we chose to do what we were inclined to do which was sin. and then we are saved by grace through faith so that no one can boast. it is thew work of God and not of the work of man. God chooses us out of a place where we couldnt choose him.. John says no one comes to christ unless the father draws him. wheres the choice in that for us?
Um. No. The Devil is a spiritual force created by God for human growth and to learn what love is. You can not know what love is, or what paradise is without sorrow and unhappiness. All souls will eventually become one with God again in the end of all time. Oh and sin is selfishness. Once that is eradicated you are free. Aren't we suppose to evolve into Christhood as St. Paul says in Acts?
This is a difficult concept to grasp, but I firmly believe the Bible teaches this. If you're unsure, check out the Bible and study it to find the answer.
The answer you and Piper is close, but (I believe) wrong. Why did God want to display his glory? (I think I have an answer to this, but it won't go the way you answer, I'm pretty sure...so that's why I ask.) How can God's holiness, righteousness, and glory be intensified, I curious?
Why did God create the universe in the first place? If He knew there would be sin in it, then why did He still go through with His plan? I believe the answer is this: God created the universe to display His glory, period. Realize, however, that God didn't need us. He was perfectly complete before He made the universe. If anything sin only intensifies God's holiness, righteousness, and glory. Christ was magnified on the cross when He paid the punishment for our sins, to the glory of God.
This world right now is under a curse - the curse of sin. But in the Bible there is a promise of a new world that will be free from sin. Only those who have accepted Christ's redemptive power in their lives in this sinful world will get to live in the new world God will make. God is still working out His plan on this earth. (read Revelation 21)
HereIamWhatNow, no, you have accepted and swallowed the hook and it is lodged in you throat. Sin is a made up concept that has trapped you. There are bad things done by people, yes, but curses and all that stuff are just stories. Citing the bible to prove something to me is useless since I know that you don't even know why you should believe the bible. Prove to me that the bible is correct.
Blimey. That's a lot of of information. Still, I appreciate your input. So, what I'm hearing is that evil is absolute and that it is a curse of free will. In elaboration, could you tell me whether there are psychological conditions that set up the 'curse'? For example, the 'prisoner's dilemma' and the 'tragedy of the commons'? Those will need looking up on wiki, but are invaluable to moral discussion. In those situations, what would Jesus do? No-one has found me an answer yet!
tobo86 2 months ago
Dear Christians,
Cannibals, specifically the Kombai tribe of Papua New Guinea. They kill and eat men they believe are evil, known as sorcerers. But this act, to them, is morally good as they believe they are rescuing the souls of the sorcerer's victims, trapped inside his body. This is true. Surely your belief in God is as baseless as theirs of the sorcerer?
tobo86 3 months ago
@tobo86 I would say that they are deceived and that that teaching is incorrect. Also, what is morally good is decided by the Authorized 1611 King James Bible (aka the Word of YHWH) no one and nothing else. Whats' morally acceptable isn't relative to time or place or circumstance. If you are confused and since we are in the New Testament, ask yourself this question, "What would Jesus have done?" And if you even know a slight bit about his character he probably wouldn't have cannbilized anyone.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Please forgive me if I ask too many questions - I am simply curious in my path to truth. If I'm correct, I'm hearing that the Kombai people are morally wrong because their beliefs don't follow in line with James Bible. Why is he an authority on the matter? Surely there has been some kind of moral development since then? Other questions puzzle me such as: would Jesus have killed Hitler given the chance, knowing millions would die if he didn't?
tobo86 2 months ago
@tobo86 All questions are welcome. The King James Bible is the authority because the KJV (King James Version) is the only Bible out there that hasn't been perverted by sinful men. All 500+ translations of the "new age" Bibles out there are based on the KJV. That's why it's called the, "Authorized Version" because it is the translation all other translations are based on HOWEVER it is imperative to note that this new translations DO NOT simply put the words of Yahweh into different terms, they
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@tobo86 have added words, and taken verses away specifically the ones having to do with their personal sin OR they deny the deity of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus) or they change or omit verses that warn people not to change or omit verses. They think by perverting the word of Yahweh (Hebrew for God) they can somehow outsmart Him or something. Outta sight outta mind I guess? Anyway, to answer your question further, it is important to realize that Yahweh does not change....
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@tobo86 Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not." Thus neither does His divine law that supersedes time and space, for He made time and space. What was evil to Yahweh 5,000 years ago is still evil to Him today and always will be. That's why the Bible never dies! It is timeless, eternal, just like Yahweh Himself! Anyway to answer the last part of your question, Yahweh isn't surprised by anything. He knew how Hitler was going to use his free will, that however does not give Yahweh legality
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@tobo86 to change his freewill. You see, freewill is a gift humans naturally tend to turn into a curse. We can choose whether or not we want to follow Yahwehs rules or not and because of the condition of our fallen world we naturally don't want to follow Yahweh. It takes effort. Yahweh however used his foreknowledge of how Hitler was going to use his freewill to punish the Jews for rejecting Yeshua that led to his execution. (my personal opinion)
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@tobo86 Especially because Yeshua came not to preach to the rightious, but the lost. Foolish Jews of the day mocked him for dining and speaking with the criminals and such but Yeshua replied unto them "A Dr. doesn't visit the healthy, a Dr. visits the sick" and the point is we're all spiritually lost until salvation so Yeshua came to save sinners and that goes for each and every person reading this comment. He can forgive you of every sin you could possibly commit the rest of your life.Get saved
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
MUST READ!!! THIS QUESTION WILL GET YOU THINKING?
If adam and eve ate the tree in the garden and then they became sinners and now mankind has sin. Then what about all the animals (they die, they have sex, they fight) so animals go to hell?...the animals never ate of the tree and they have the exact same traits as us.
duecepitbull 4 months ago
the plain and simple truth is this evil exists becuase of transgression anything that goes against or is outside of GODs will creates evil. GOD can not create evil becuase that would be contridictory to his very nature of goodness GOD hates evil and has nothing to with it for with him the wicked can not dwell. GOD wants to save the wicked and the sinners becuase evil was never meant to be a part of this creation we were created to be good but, adams transgression brought evil into the world.
doctorw2 10 months ago 2
@doctorw2 Adam / mankind is not God, that he/we should be able to create anything, good or evil.
God is the source of all:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45.7
Dadutta 5 months ago
@Dadutta the hebrew word used for evil in that verse means calamity not malicious evil GOD can cause a calamity to come upon a nation as a result of a judgement for misdeeds but, GOD never has created evil that is something that came from the other side. Mankind has the power to create good and evil becuase we were created to be co creators on earth thats why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden so that we could fullfill that role in the far future.
doctorw2 5 months ago
@doctorw2 you have to understand that when we say God is the ultimate originator of all good and evil, we don't mean he has transgressed in any way, but is perfectly sovereign to do as he pleases. Who are we to limit his outstretched arm?
Dadutta 5 months ago
@Dadutta GOD did not create evil neither did he create evil in any way that must be made clear no one can put limits on GOD. GOD hates evil or otherwise he would not have been grieved at mans thoughts being evil all the time before the flood in the euphrates region the wrath GOD comes on people who are wicked but, yet GOD takes no pleasure in destroying people who are evil or wicked so that goes to show you that GOD is not the author of evil.
doctorw2 5 months ago
@doctorw2 A all-powerfull and all-knowing(past,present,future) GOD already knew evil would come into the world, but he doesnt prevent it? sounds strange to me.
duecepitbull 4 months ago
@duecepitbull yeah it does becuase its not true GODs way is the way of probability he can predict an outcome before it happens and weigh in the factors of a possible outcome like an intelligent sentient being the garden of eden was an experiment to see which concepts another sentient being (man) would choose for himself.
doctorw2 4 months ago
if you're going to agree or disagree with Piper, use scripture. not opinions or logic. Ephesians 1:11 " we have obtained and inheritance, having veen predestined according to His purpose WHO WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL." this clearly states that all things, including evil are to carry out the counsel of His will.
psalm34verse8 1 year ago
Piper here effectively claims that the gross evil actions of paedophilic rapist murderers are designed by God to make Christ appear more glorious. What a ridiculous idea. Of course God created the potential for evil, but he instructs us to avoid evil. Piper claims God created evil actions - actually authored them, but is not responsible for this - quite bizarre really dont you think? he calls this inscrutability, but is failing to differentiate the permissive will of God, and his preferred will.
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
Jon Piper totally misses the point that GOD LOVES US.
The pain of losing his only son was LESS than the THOUGHT of being apart from us. HE LOVE US.
MajorMotionMatt 1 year ago
@MajorMotionMatt how do you back this up?
wasdpol 1 year ago
@MajorMotionMatt Jesus is God.
societyofsin 5 months ago
@societyofsin no sorry he isnt even jesus himself said he wasnt.
doctorw2 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@doctorw2 Deny the Deity of Christ all you want. I'm not going to argue with you.
societyofsin 4 months ago
God gave us free will ... we can choose to follow a path of good or evil. I believe that those who choose evil will face consequences eventually.
jeanpennie 2 years ago
well what is your definition of Free will?
GodSavesSinners 2 years ago
the choice to decide to follow a path of good or evil ... I'm sure God would love it if we all chose to do good but as we see every day many do not make that choice
jeanpennie 2 years ago
@jeanpennie interesting point.. where does the bible teach free will? and how can our choices truly be free? we make no decisions without evil, social, human influences... God is the only one with true free will...
BigG99 1 year ago
@BigG99 I don't claim to be a scholar of the Bible; free will is what I learned as a child and believe to this day. You are correct that outside influences can and do play a very big part; those who are weak and easily corrupted are much less likely to use good judgment in exercising their free will. The test of Jesus in the desert against the attempts at corruption by the Devil show that the choice to be good is ours if we are strong enough to deny temptation.
jeanpennie 1 year ago
@jeanpennie well i think the whole point of ephesians chapter 2 is that we were wicked and totally unable to be godly on our own. we chose to do what we were inclined to do which was sin. and then we are saved by grace through faith so that no one can boast. it is thew work of God and not of the work of man. God chooses us out of a place where we couldnt choose him.. John says no one comes to christ unless the father draws him. wheres the choice in that for us?
BigG99 1 year ago
Um. No. The Devil is a spiritual force created by God for human growth and to learn what love is. You can not know what love is, or what paradise is without sorrow and unhappiness. All souls will eventually become one with God again in the end of all time. Oh and sin is selfishness. Once that is eradicated you are free. Aren't we suppose to evolve into Christhood as St. Paul says in Acts?
Mafia07407 2 years ago
This is a difficult concept to grasp, but I firmly believe the Bible teaches this. If you're unsure, check out the Bible and study it to find the answer.
HereIamWhatNow 3 years ago
The answer you and Piper is close, but (I believe) wrong. Why did God want to display his glory? (I think I have an answer to this, but it won't go the way you answer, I'm pretty sure...so that's why I ask.) How can God's holiness, righteousness, and glory be intensified, I curious?
drsuessre14 3 years ago
It's not that it's intensified,it's about us to see it
deeakingsdaughter 2 years ago
It's difficult to grasp to sane minds because it is deluded and insane. watch?v=KY_3_lGFZZQ
farvision 3 years ago
I love Piper, but this is one place where I jump off.
drsuessre14 3 years ago
Why did God create the universe in the first place? If He knew there would be sin in it, then why did He still go through with His plan? I believe the answer is this: God created the universe to display His glory, period. Realize, however, that God didn't need us. He was perfectly complete before He made the universe. If anything sin only intensifies God's holiness, righteousness, and glory. Christ was magnified on the cross when He paid the punishment for our sins, to the glory of God.
HereIamWhatNow 3 years ago
Jesus paid but we still suffer from sin. Makes no sense whatsoever.
farvision 3 years ago
This world right now is under a curse - the curse of sin. But in the Bible there is a promise of a new world that will be free from sin. Only those who have accepted Christ's redemptive power in their lives in this sinful world will get to live in the new world God will make. God is still working out His plan on this earth. (read Revelation 21)
HereIamWhatNow 3 years ago
HereIamWhatNow, no, you have accepted and swallowed the hook and it is lodged in you throat. Sin is a made up concept that has trapped you. There are bad things done by people, yes, but curses and all that stuff are just stories. Citing the bible to prove something to me is useless since I know that you don't even know why you should believe the bible. Prove to me that the bible is correct.
farvision 3 years ago