Saved by Grace(?) AFTER all you can do? Mormon doctrine

[amphiblien]

Revelation 20:12,13

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[batterdown]

I find it tragic that Shawn & folks like him will pick specific scriptures out of a text & then base a doctrine or an opinion on part of the evidence...well...should I say, to the exclusion of all the other evidence. The BoM does not ONLY have the "after-all-we-can-do" verse. It has many scriptures about the Grace of Christ calling Him the Redeemer & Messiah (2 Nep 2) and that salvation is thru Him. Mormons, as Paul, simply believe that grace and works are inseparable, & not mutually exclusive.

[blueskunk12]

@batterdown

If you don't agree with the BoM, you're free to edit it. I just wonder what your Bishop will think.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 I've applied the Atonement, and repentance process. through the grace of Christ I am able to clearly do things I cannot do on my own. I have very much proved the scriptures to be true stating we are given weaknesses that we will humble ourselves before Christ, and that His grace is sufficient if we will do so. here is your reference Ether 12:27. your next reference is 2 Nephi 2:7.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 you have Google use it - I found this in less than a minute

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 did a quick Google search on the 'Greek' translation, and I can't say that it necessarily agrees with your definition. there are millions that agree with my 'opinion' of what repentance is even outside the LDS religion. it may be convenient for you to try and make it sound like it is a unique perspective, but that simply is not reality.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 I get the definition from all over the NT. if I were looking for a definition of metanoia then you definition may of worked. washed clean by the blood of Christ is a 'fruit' of repentance. Baptism AND repentance are mentioned in combination multiple times 'for the remission of sins'. if I want to look at a general dictionary definition your explanation is correct. dictionarydotcom doesn't really work for terms of religion.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 you are very wrong about that.  now - if I 'interpreted' the Bible as you do then you may be correct. however the Bible is of 'no private interpretation' so I prefer to interpret it through the Holy Ghost. I also prefer to believe all of it not just the parts that are the most convenient to live. the Bible is not suppose to be added to or taken from, and yet how can you explain all the 'different' version. which Bible is it we are talking about because they aren't all the same.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 you need to get back to your basic terms. repentance MEANS, by definition, to be 'washed clean'. sorry I choose to actually believe that book.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 have read it, believe it, understand it. I choose to believe all of it just not the parts I want to. there are always more to learn. I think it is a life long process not something that 'just happens'. the Bible talks repeatedly about the importance of obedience, repentance, the way being narrow and FEW that find it. it is obvious it isn't just we are 'free' and not under the law anymore. nothing in life works that simply, and you can bet that neither does the true gospel.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 that does not contradict my statement quite honestly. the statement is stating we shall not continue to to sin, and that is part of true repentance ;) we have to 'actually' change the behavior.

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 you will go into the next life with the same heart, and life style you leave it with. we aren't all of a sudden changed and all of a sudden it is OK. if I went to a dinner at the white house after working in the barn & not cleaning up / changing I would be very uncomfortable. no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven. yes that is through Christ, but that does not mean a death bed repentance will get you there,

[solowookie]

@BaurakAle7 if you were 'no longer under the law' then you could keep sinning as much as you wanted and your life would simply 'be miserable'. that is absolute rubbish we repent to literally be washed clean. nowhere states we can be saved without repentance it states we are saved through grace & not of our own work. there is nothing we can do to make right the wrongs we have committed. you need to actually believe what you are reading & not justifying it.

[solowookie]

here's your 1 flaw - we are saved by grace, and there is no question of that the LDS do not dispute that. however - the Bible speaks clearly about the repentance requirements of a broken heart and contrite spirit. why does it speak of these things if they are not required for repetance? we do not save ourselves, Christ does, BUT - there are requirements to be made clean. we also know that no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God. we can't be saved without repentance ;)

[wellsjdan]

If one is saved by grace only, why does Christ point out over and over that we must keep the commandments to be saved, do works of rightousness? Let me as the Bible thumpers then, if my friend who was "saved" in HighSchool, now has fallen away and is a drug addict, says he is atheist now, is he still saved? Ever hear/read of the term endure to the end? The concept of once saved always saved is not biblical. Nor is saved by grace alone,.

[ushouldSMILEmorebats]

@wellsjdan Thats because he was never saved in the first place. If he really gave his life to Jesus, he would be living a Godly life until the day he dies

[wellsjdan]

Thats because he was never saved in the first place. If he really gave his life to Jesus, he would be living a Godly life until the day he dies

We all could fall bro, nobodies immune to falling, that's the point, He was a good Christian for many years, brought many to Christ, but got hooked on Drugs, to say he was never saved is ridiculous, and not biblical, Christ says in the last days even the elect will be fooled, the elect saved? roll eyes.

[wellsjdan]

@ushouldSMILEmorebats -Also read Heb 6:4-6 It speaks of those who have been enlightened falling, and not having salvation, so as I said, once saved always saved no matter what is bogus doctrine.

[wellsjdan]

This dude looks like a cross between fabio and Nick Nolte, LOL, and what is that scarf he's wearing? LOL

[wellsjdan]

@ushouldSMILEmorebats --- Also, did not Judas, an APOSTLE of Christ, a man who it is said in the bible was a "BELIEVER" in Christ, a man who performed miricles in Christs name, a man who went on missions for Christ, not fall through denying Christ? I know Christians who converted to Muslism, they now don't believe Christ is their savior anymore, for you to use the lame, "Oh, they were never saved" Is complete bogus, they believed in Christ, they followed your steps to salvation. roll eyes.

[wellsjdan]

Let me ask the Bible thumpers if they believe in Baptism as a necessity as taught in John 3:5?

[yeshuado]

great point , bless you Shawn

[Glorthac]

Nobody would ever be saved under this doctrine, for who does ALL that they can do? Take 1 nap and you fail.

[batterdown]

@Glorthac Do you really believe that Jesus doesn't expect anything in return from us after we accept Him as our personal Savior? Do you believe that a lazy person, after accepting Christ, who does nothing (see the one-talent servant in Matthew) will be rewarded for his works -- or lack thereof-- the same as the one who does much in His Kingdom (see the five-talent servant in Matthew)? Apparently, Christ didn't see it that way & He will reward us according to our works, but they don't save us.

[blueskunk12]

@batterdown

But see, the BoM says "You are saved by grace after all you can do".

In other words, Mormons are not saved until Final Judgment. They spend their whole lives working for God, then die and wait for Armageddon, not knowing if they're saved or not.

That's not Biblical.

The Bible says we are saved to do good works, not that our salvation depends on good works (Eph 2:8-10).

[batterdown]

@blueskunk12 would have you believe that the two scriptures from the BoM and Ephesians are ALL that is written on the topic of grace, faith, works, reward, & heaven. But, ignoring all the rest on the topic is a gross mistake. Especially, when many verses spoken by Jesus, himself, are ignored or excluded. Often He spoke of "doing". LDS believe Him & actively strive to keep his counsel; not ignore it. We believe Christ expects change in us; others say Christ doesn't care. Which kind are you?

[blueskunk12]

@batterdown

No one is saying to ignore them. My concern is that your BoM says that good works are a necessary part of salvation, while the Bible says that salvation is God's free, undeserved gift.

It's my belief that:

1) LDS do not believe Him, do not keep His council, and do the exact thing the Pharisees did.

2) LDS does not allow Christ to change us, but instead impose a long list of rules on people.

Would you like to try to prove your beliefs, or just sit here stating your beliefs as fact?

[batterdown]

@blueskunk12 Once again, "that verse" is separated from the BoM. It is not the only thing said about our relationship w/ Christ & His role as Redeemer, King, & Messiah. LDS do not believe that conduct saves us. We MUST accept Christ. Paul said, "Faith w/out works is dead." LDS simply believe that our conduct is important to Christ. He magnified that importance & gave examples of it all His days. Conduct is encouraged; not imposed. "Proof compels acceptance; faith invites."

[blueskunk12]

But my biggest concern with Mormons is that you typically do not make any attempt to prove your doctrine.

Instead you merely repeat your claim that you're God's true Church, which means you're right, cite your beliefs, then say that you know you're right because you're God's true Church.

And whenever I offer proof - from historical records, LDS Church history, and the Bible - which contradict Mormon beliefs, Mormons typically respond by saying everything that contradicts you is wrong.

[batterdown]

@blueskunk12 The Bible, along w/ the BoM, teaches that faith, grace, & conduct (works) are inseparably connected & that during the judgment all men will receive their eternal reward according to their works. Christ teaches us to be the best that we can be. But, we are also taught that because we have all sinned & come short of the glory of God, that we MUST have & believe in Him & His grace in order to enter into a Heavenly reward. We rely on Him & do our best; He does the rest. Praise Jesus.

[blueskunk12]

@batterdown

You continue to state your beliefs as fact without offering anything to back them.

[batterdown]

@blueskunk12 wants me to "back" my responses. I'm not quite sure what he wants. First, beliefs are not facts, but I have given scriptures in places, & due to lack of space, I have paraphrased. I can certainly "back" the points I expressed with specific biblical scriptures. I invite him to ask specific questions regarding my "lack of backing". And, for the sake of the reader here: For the greatest part, I spoke of Bible teachings in my comments. Please review what I have said; you decide.

[blueskunk12]

@batterdown All I've heard from you is claims that your beliefs are true, but no scripture. You ignore my points, then claim I haven't made any.

You are as empty as the wind.

[blueskunk12]

I can sum up this concern with a pair of jokes.

Q: How do you get a Mormon to listen to you?

A: Agree with everything he says.

Q: Why did the Mormon stop listening to you?

A: You disagreed with him.

[DejaBlade]

So how do you know when you've done enough?

[TheStephen2009]

@DejaBlade you don't know ! with the mormon church - you are never at the point where you can be sure of getting in to heaven ! good works can't save you !

[TheStephen2009]

@DejaBlade john 14:6

rom 10 : 9-10

rom 3:9

rom 10:13

[DejaBlade]

Exactly my point. When is the LDS Church going to drop this ridiculous notion that you need to do good works for salvation? I'm not saying you shouldn't be a good person and do good things - but your salvation doesn't depend on it.

Incidentally, if the LDS put so much emphasis on the "works" doctrine - why isn't it even mentioned in the 4th Article of Faith?

[TheStephen2009]

@DejaBlade good point - I will look into that

[TheStephen2009]

@DejaBlade it is under the 3th article of faith where they talk about works

[DejaBlade]

Sorry, I don't see it in the 3rd article of Faith either.

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

[TheStephen2009]

@DejaBlade they hid it - by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel is talking about works ... if they had not added the last part it would be fine . when they added the last part , they were adding works to the atonement which is not needed .

christ dying on the cross has done it for all time , no works are needed !

[philosophizer149]

So you have no guaranteed salvation? What about Romans 10:9 which states "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved." Its a guarantee based on whether or not you believe not a well maybe depending on how much work you do!

[TheStephen2009]

@philosophizer149 when mormom talks about works they missed romans 10:9 . again the mormoms added to the atonement as if Christ was too weak to wipe out your sins which is a LIE !

[philosophizer149]

Well that is what I was trying to get this mormon to realize

[TheStephen2009]

@philosophizer149 you're welcome !

[tezkingkong]

@DejaBlade You don't....This "doctrine" is one of the key control tools of Mormonism.