Who is the sovereign? To answer that question, we must turn to the pages out of the Bretton Woods Treaty Agreements. See: Article 7. The International bankers are the sovereign. This is the present structure. If you don't like it, REPEAL the treaty! But I have to warn you. If you do that, you will be ending our relations with the United Nation, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. What would Jesus have said about that?
See Luke 22 for the answer. It was His last command.
Who is the sovereign? To answer that question, we must turn to the pages out of the Bretton Woods Treaty Agreements. See: Article 7. The International bankers are the sovereign. This is the present structure. If you don't like it, REPEAL the treaty! But I have to warn you. If you do that, you will be ending our relations with the United Nation, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. What would Jesus have said about that?
See Luke 22 for the answer. It was His last command.
So therefore, there must be a Top Down structure in the church as a reflection of the Top Down structure in the U.S. government, as a result of co-opting from the illuminati Luciferian elite.
So, as Lucifer sits at the top of the global governing structure, dictating down to the churches so the pastors can teach their flock benine teachings...all for the good of the few. We wouldnt want the church to revolt. So, they keep matters simple. Sing a song, pay your 10% and cover dish meals. mmmmm
The 501 (c)(3) is there to insure the domestic tranquility. In other words, pastors are the leaders of the flock insuring that the fullness of knowledge isnt revealed to the sheeple. If that were to happen, there would be great unrest. For example, as globalization took root in the U.S. as of 1944, by supra-national treaty and illegally ratified in 1945, had the church known about it and its consequence to the nation and world, the sheeple would have revolted.
Priestcraft in any form is a person trying to help you put out the fire that is enveloping your house, while there own house is blazing and on fire as well. They have no spiritual leg up on the average person, just book learning. When will people wake up to the fact that leaders in the church take your money and are only interested in that? Some are sincere, no doubt, but I wouldn't trust ANY of them. They know nothing you don't know.
If our so called leaders tending the sheep are not preaching to the lost in the city squares, highways and byways with the flock, then thats were I draw the line. Just ministering from 4 walls is also not biblical.
Very well said brother thank you, I know our Lord will bless you for making public this truth. It has taken me thirty years to understand this truth in my life, and now I understand the persecution and rejection I received for simply listening to our Lord! It reminds me of the religious leaders at the time of Christ. And oh how I yearn to share the power of Christ with others using my life. This has been difficult, yet God using the internet for his people now, and men like you.
i guess you haven't read the context of 1 Cor.9: 1-14 that of an apostle who plants local church bodies and never received directly support from those who he was working with, lest he hinder the work of the gospel. Try than one! No mention of pastor receiving support ever! Apostles and prophets are foundational ministerially, Eph.2:20 not pastors, who are local, so get a job! Are you a Diotrephes kind of person?
@tjg2008 As an apostle, I see the extreme reaction towards me of pastors. LOL Your comment makes me laugh. And they will do all they can to stop an apostle from answering an apostolic call -- becuz it just doesn't "fit" in their mental structure of the church. Well, God is going to raise up the body. As an apostle, the highest goal is to raise up the body in apostolic anointing. And that's about to happen in the endtime move followed by rapture. Great vid.
I guess you must not have seen 1 Cor. 9:14: "The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should make their living of the gospel." Paid Christians do ALL OF THE WORK. Free work is illegal: Deut. 25:4.
Acts 14:23 ordained elders in every church..elders is plural, of the church is singular. No such think as THE PASTOR OF A CHURCH ANYWHARE INTHE NEW TESTAMETN .No one ever directly adressed to the churches called pastor,in any New Testament episltes. The gifts given to the church are apostle,prophet,evangelist,pastor,teacher. Eph.4:11 The order is 1 Cor.12:28 pastor is not even listed. You play up the title. You should play down the role of pastor, in favor of apostles. Plurality is normati
Also , here is another lie that he told , Ananias was a Bishop in the church, or the overseer of pastors. He even died for his work as a Bishop / Pastor.
This guy is all wrong and unbiblical. Ephesians4:11 says that God gave some the office of Pastor. The term of Pastor as "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies" is supported by Thayers, Vines and Strongs.
As long as you still think you are special. And going to a special place just for you. With wealth and riches isn't that what every clergymen tell you.Honestly isnt that what you are waiting for ? It's all about the cheese at the end of a earthly maze. Religion itself is false promise and you think that your God will punish me forever in an unknowable hell. Who's really the asshole ? This is why I can't respect any clergy.
I posted your video on my blog, and this is a part of one response I received, would you be gracious enough to respond to this question? "What I didn't hear addressed is the roles of deacons and bishops (or elders). I would like to hear what his views on these positions clearly pointed out in I Timothy as well as other passages. Who has authority to decide error in the doctrine taught by Jesus? How is church discipline carry out? I would like to hear his view on this." end quote
@ASeedSower234 Paul gave an authority structure for the church in 1 Cor 11:3 and "pastor" is not in it. In 1 Tim 5, what the ESV renders as "older man" in verse 1 is the same Greek root word (presbyteros) as "elders" in verse 17. In Mark 10:42ff, Jesus instructs the disciples about the proper way for them to "rule". Acts 15 illustrates how matters of error are worked out. Note that the apostles did not decide alone -- they participated as servant leaders. See also Gal 2:11-14.
@ASeedSower234 It appears you have mistaken me for the video poster. I see our handles are similar. I hope God was able use me to sufficiently shed some light on your dilemma, though. Take care, Christian brother.
@tjg2008 -It was 5months ago, I don't write letters, just e-mails...if you instructed me at the time to do that, I am sure I would have e-mailed him, but no I have never heard from him...
@ASeedSower234 The HOLY SPIRIT is powerfully present through apostles and saints gain powerful conviction of truth. The Spirit brings to unity and maturity in agreement in sound and true doctrine. Pastors acting as doctrine police from their own perspectives -- do not maintain purity of the church in sound doctrine. (Look around and please consider.) When apostles are in the church, church discipline is carried out by power of the Spirit not human govt. ANATHEMA strikes men dead.
Amen, we are all kings and priest; There should not be division in the Body, but there should be understanding of the those place in the office of ministry, to edify the Body. Ministry are ordained of God, set for the maturing of the believers (Body); without doubt Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors and Teachers are set for the perfecting of the saints. Are all Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors and Teachers? No, nor are we better then others but more mature; if called, taught sent of God... Peace
1 Timothy 5: 17(A)The elders who (B)rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who (C)work hard at preaching and teaching.
@terriergal Matt 23:8-10 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. (ESV) Gifts and roles -- not positions and titles.
Actually most of congregational polity is formed around the idea that the pastor is not above the people in the congregation. Pastor/teacher is a man's office, but doesn't make him above the Word or more special than anyone else. This is precisely what congregational polity is built on. This guy talks like every church is run like the Roman church, the one that Luther was referring to in the cartoon Jon Zens referenced here. I have to wonder what rock he's been living under to miss this.
It's sad if you're attending a church that has Clergy and Laity that emphasizes the separation to the point that you feel any different. It's also sad that your pastor doesn't make you feel like a valuable part of the Church. Interesting movement that you're trying to start, but I think the big problem is that you're going to allow people to control their own theology and it'll mellow out with a very low average theological and spiritual IQ. God doesn't care how you worship, just that you do.
Jesus said that God is a spirit and we MUST worship him in spirit and in truth. The Father seeks such to worship him. The Nicolaitan deeds and doctrines spoke in Rev.2:6,15 Jesus HATES! The taking of titles, Hierarchy over others like Diotraphies this is NOT Biblical leadership. There is no such thing as the pastor of a church ANYWHERE in the New Testament! Leaders have no authority in them selves Matt.22:25-27 are not lords 1Pet.5:3 and not hirelings.
I would assert that the 'house church' is not a new movement, but rather a return to the original new testament standard of the Scriptures. All genuine doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness was given to these original Christians as they devoted themselves to the apostle's teaching and worshipped God in spirit and truth. They were not stupified, or controlled by their own theology.
I thought there was only ONE priest now - Jesus Christ. Furthermore Jesus Christ is a quite distinct - hight priest like one in the order of Melchisedec.
You are absolutely "right on" in your analysis and analogy! But if the truth be known, the modern "church" is heavily influenced by Satan himself, i.e., that this is a business in the same fashion as the temple was when Jesus rebuked its leadership. The real "body of the Messiah" (the Church), in the end times is being developed by people such as yourself who are seeking the Lord God's truth, and not man's system of aristocracy and self promotion.....only for the truth seekers.
By the way, the word 'pastor' is in Ephesians 4:11.
As for the idea there shouldn't be a senior leader of a local church, how do you explain the use of personal pronouns in the 2nd person singular in Revelation 2 and 3?
The use of these pronouns reveals it was an individual who was being addressed in each church and not the church body. Which means these individuals were responsible for the church and accountable to the Lord.
In Rev 1 a man is in the midst of 7 lamps, w/ 7 stars in his right hand. The Man = Jesus; the 7 lamps = 7 churches in Asia Minor; the 7 stars = 7 angels of the 7 churches. The Greek noun angelos, though translated angel, simply means messenger and can speak of human messengers as in Mk 1:2, Lk 7:24. In fact, the messengers in Rev 2&3 were human, each was the senior bishop of one of the churches as evidenced by the fact the pronouns used to address them are all in the 2nd pers. singular.
This is great stuff. The same thing happened to me while siting in church a couple months ago, it didnt feel right for some reason so I asked God for answers, I got home and opened the bible and ran across so much stuff, starting with the nicolaitans in revelations 2:6 and God took it form there. I made web site about all He showed me. You can find the link on my channel, tell me what you think tjg. Thanks for the video. Im favoriting it and giving you 5.
tuberngubern says, "I am a proponent of house churches. As long as the ones who oversee are qualified." And what are these qualifications, tuberngubern? Do we need your authorization to meet at home? Jesus said where two or three gathered in His name, He is in their midst. You, tuberngubern, are a false teacher.
Try reading Titus 1:5-7 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre. Also read 1 Tim 3:1-7.
I don't think he is trying to say nothing happens without permission brother, or even lead. Christ is the head of His church and he leads us all by His Spirit. Older men, who teach by word and example are a blessing to the body and they bring a measure of maturity. They are only part of the Eph.4:11 gifit given to the church to bring the who body into the full stature of Christ. They are not to be control freeks order other around to their own advantage.
I will NEVER place myself under the headship of a mere man and will never enter these fraud assemblies called "churches". Only an evil man would want to control the Lords gatherings and replace Him as the head of the body. All "pastor" will give an account for the evil heart they have. Run from these places to the headship and fear of Christ not men!
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation...
...Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:7,17
Are you saying God cannot provide a church that is 'safe'?
Yes of course there are elders (plural) in the church (singular). Obey in Hebrews should be more translated persuade and is not the same word in Ephesians 6:1 Children obey your parents in the Lord. How elders function and how they are recognized by all in the assembly would be an important understanding for the saints. Elders who rule...that would not be authoritarian but by word and precept modeled in their own lives. Fatherly carring for others this is the idea
Obey is the translation of the Greek verb peitho and is in the second person plural as a present passive/middle imperative and in Hebrews 13:17 literally means to be persuaded to the point of obedience. I think some people have a hypervigilance in regard to the issue of authority and assume those who speak of the authority of elders believe elders are to be blindly followed and are above others.
Peitho is the word it also conveys the idea that after back and forth or going over as one in a battle field is engaged in conflict the one side yields to the other after this kind of engagment. I suppose it is to help fellowships come to resolve disputes over issues that older brothers have the discernment and knowledge that younger brother lacked thus they should yield. Do you have plural leader ship and is it all men or do you allow women elders?
ALL horrible translation used byvthe Devil and his cohorts to usurp Christ rightfull Headship of His Body. If you want the truth and I don't think you do, search it out and you will find it and free you from the bondage of man headed assemblies!
Who do the 7 angels in Revelation 2 represent? Some believe angels but they were men, and each presided over a church...someone has to be in charge. Are you assuming no one individual can properly take on such a responsibility and only a board of elders can rule do so? What is your evidence? It's true there are some who abuse their position but this is also seen in house churches. We mustn't throw out the baby with the bath water.
What 7 angels are you talking about in Revelation 2? Chapter two is talking of the churches... the persecuted church,the loveless church,the compromising church and the corrupt church.
In Rev 1 a man is in the midst of 7 lamps, w/ 7 stars in his right hand. The Man = Jesus; the 7 lamps = 7 churches in Asia Minor; the 7 stars = 7 angels of the 7 churches. The Greek noun angelos though translated angel simply means messenger and can speak of human messengers as in Mk 1:2, Lk 7:24. In fact, the messengers in Rev 2&3 were human, each was the senior bishop of one of the churches as evidenced by the fact the pronouns used to address them are all in the 2nd pers. singular.
Who is the pastor in Rome, or Corinth, or Ephasis, you don't find the word pastor in the new testment and you only find elders plural of the church singular. Practically where do you function in the ecclesia? What is your background? RC priest? I am interested to know. No such thing senior bishop typical characteristic of those who draw men unto themselves.
By the way, the word 'pastor' is in Ephesians 4:11.
As for the idea there shouldn't be a senior leader of a local church, how do you explain the use of personal pronouns in the 2nd person singular in Revelation 2 and 3?
The use of these pronouns reveals it was an individual who was being addressed in each church and not the church body. Which means these individuals were responsible for the church and accountable to the Lord.
Eph. 4:11 Pastors plural no such thing as pastor singular in the New Testament. You point out prominence can't find it in the scriptures and messanger of the church in revealtions I'll stick with the translation of angel.
Why insist on the translation of aggelos as angel in Revelation 1, 2 and 3 when aggelos can also speak of humans as seen in Mt 11:10, Mk 1:2, Lk 7:24, 27, 9:52, 2 Co 12:7, and Ja 2:25?
The KJV translators deemed aggelos as 'angel(s)' because the hierarchy of the Church of England could not afford local churches to be self-governed, so the translators mystified the text with the use of angel, giving birth to the doctrine that an actual angel is over each church.
No, it is because we shown in the New Testament where elders,deacons and bishops are spoken of, it is all plural. Look and Christ and His Apostles, there were many of them. Not just one. One didn't have authority over the rest(the Apostles).
Are the passage you refer plainly stating there isn't tobe one leader 'to whom the buck stops'? What about Acts 2:17 where James is singled out? He had begun to take the oversight of the Church in Jerusalem, which we afterwards find him exercising in Act 15:1-29.
The Greek word aggelos is a masculine noun. In each instance regarding the 7 churches of Revelation 2 and 3 aggelos is in the singular. The 'angel' of each church is actually human as evidenced by the fact that the 'aggelos' of the church of Ephesus is said to have left his first love, which is something only a human who has been redeemed through Christ could do. Angels do not love the Lord the same way believers love the Lord because the angels have never experienced redemption.
Each of the churches in Revelation 2 (and 3) are represented by a single 'angelos' which means 'messenger'. The 'angleos' in each church speaks of the senior bishop of the church.
However, Revelations hasn't happened yet. That's first. Second, there are supposed to be elders, plural. Overseers. Not just one. And one elder doesn't have more 'authority' than any of the others.
Revelation ahsn;t happened yet? The 7 churches in Asia Minor were real churches. Churches which John was commanded to send letters.
Yes, there is to be a body of elders, as in a presbytery as in 1 Tim 4:14 but how do we explain the indidviduals who were being addressed in Revelation 2 and 3?
I never said that the churches weren't real churches, but the events that are described in Revelation hasn't happened yet. We are all supposed to be participating in the body, not just sit on a pew once or twice a week. Just because an individual was addressed(which happens all throughout scripture) does not mean that one person is to be in charge.
James singled out from the group because he was the only one mentioned by name, which is to be singled out.
The church was not being accused of leaving its 1st love because the personal pronouns used are all in the SINGULAR, which means John was addressing an individual.
If John had been addressing the church as a whole, he would have HAD to use PLURAL 2nd person pronouns.
There was one individual in each of the 7 churches who was responsible as evidenced by the fact that only one person from each church was being given correction, which means that individual was the one who was the leading elder. In fact, the mesenger of the church of Ephesus is told to repent and that if no repentance takes place the church would be removed from the presence of the Lord.
Take Rev 2 for example. After each letter, it says that anyone who has ears, let him listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. Not singular, not one person, but plural churches.
Elders are overseers. What tasks are given to elders? Titus 1:9
"holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
Other than the fact that Elder is always plural in scripture? Acts 14:23= Elders(plural) in every churches, meaning each church had more than one. Acts 15:6= the Apostles worked with the Elders to resolve matters. 1 Timothy 5:17=Elders(plural) rule. They labor in scripture and doctrine. You must have the wrong verse, Acts 2:17 is Peter speaking. Its Peter's sermon.
While James' name was used, he was not singled out for a task. It was James and the brothers. We don't know why because we were not there when it was written, were we? "Churches" usually means plural. Let me try to make this easier, what exactly is your point? That one person is supposed to rule over everyone? Are you Catholic?
Acts 12 does not single James out, others were mentioned. In Acts 15, James was not the only one to speak. James was not singled out in Acts 21 either. Paul went with others to James and the elders where here. Paul is mentioned by name also, does that mean he was singled out? Elders(plural) are to lead, not singular. There were others who saw Christ alone. And there are different accounts and in different accounts, different people saw Him first. What is your point? Just get to it.
Every church needs a 'point man' who oversees the church. Every leader needs to be surrounded by a body of elders to whom he can be accountable. James was the 'point' man in Jerusalem as evidenced by biblical, historical, and archaelogocal evidence.
Actually, every church needs point MEN. Elders,Deacons, ect.. always plural. If you want to follow one man, that is a personal opinion, personal preference.
I think it's just a problem with terms not being defined right. The 'Church' is an entity that God sees. They are people in him. His body is called to continuously 'discern the body of Christ'. And they do this as they interact and at some point a person might be found to be a false Christian. "expel the immoral brother' for instance it says. So those *in* Christ simply act in authority and it's either real or it's man made. One God will bless, one will remain dead.
When the 7 messengers of the 7 churches in Revelation 2 & 3 were addressed - 2nd person singular pronouns were used. Meaning only 1 individual was addressed. These individuals werent angels. They were humans as evidenced by the accusations brought before each 1. For example, the messenger of Ephesus is told he has left his 1st love. This isnt something angels can do. After each 1 is addressed a general admonition is then directed to all the churches.
So, according to your reasoning that a church is to a plural leadership and therefore no one is the 'big dawg' we can teachthat a man can have more then one wife because Ephesians 5:25 and Col 3:19 says husbands are to love their 'wives'?
You are misconstruing those verses. It is saying for all husbands to love their wives, meaning you love your wife, you father loves his wife, your brother loves his wife... We see from simply reading scripture that we are to have one spouse(New Testament). I do not know where you are getting your information. It's not my reasoning, it is what we findin scripture. Of course we have a 'big dawg'. It's God, although I like to use the name "Abba".
Jesus Christ is here in the world by way of his people. Unless one obeys his word and applies what he has said there is no realization of the truth. Soap must be applied to ones body in order for one to be cleansed, similarly one must apply the gospel of Christ in repentance and faith before one can be cleansed of their sins and find peace with God. Religion is not relationship but bondage.Christ is a person we must know him which is life eternal.
He is right on. The goal of the church today is to contruct bigger buildings and parking lots. Why have 20 million dollar building to house 5 thousand people for a 45 minute sermon once a week?
like also that all the body have the ministry of reconciliation right? Only those who are the holy man are given this ministry you would argue yet all of us in christ have been given the ministry of reconciliation.
Paul wrote, "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God." The word 'ambassadors' is a translation of the Greek VERB presbeuo (not a NOUN as the KJV suggests). Presbeuo comes from the Greek adjective 'presbuteros' refers to those who are appointed as overseers (elders/bishops). Notice the pronouns WE, YOU, and US in verse 20. To understand what Paul wrote we must ask, 'to whom do these pronouns refer?
paul could say "we have the mind of Christ" not an exclusive statement and would include all that are IN Christ. 1Cor.2:16 similarly in 2 Cor.5:18 and hath given unto us the ministry of reconcilation. again applicable to those spoken of in Eph.4:11 just as applicable to those who are In Christ. Thus the mindset of the institutional way of thinking, we so need to hear and see what the Spirit is seeking to bring us out of the house of Saul (institutional leadership and churches)
When Paul wrote "but we have the mind of Christ" it isn't an all inclusive statement. He was referring to those called into the ministry, such as he and Sosthenes. It is evident he wasn't referring to all believers when we consider the next verse, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ." How could he, without opposing himself, tell the Corinthians they had the mind of Christ but then state they were spiritually immature?
The mind of Christ is not given at conversion, but is the result of maturing in the faith. Consider the context of 1 Cor 1:1-3:17, that there were divisions among the believers in Corinth as a result of identifying themselves as disciples of men rather than disciples of Christ. These believers were being carnally minded and not exemplifying the mind of Christ. This is why Paul could say that He and Sosthenes had the mind of Christ and why he could not 'feed' them with 'meat' but with 'milk'.
Consider 2 Co 5:20 - the The Greek verb 'presbeuo' should have been translated as 'eldering' rather than as 'ambassadors'. - Now then, WE (Paul is referring to Himself, Timothy, ect) are eldering for Christ, as though God were pleading through us (Paul, Timothy, ect): we (again Paul, Timothy, ect) implore you (the Corinthian believers) on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
Before I go spouting off at the mouth? Why the contention? When did Paul say he wasn't qualified to be an elder? The word ambassadors in 2 Cor 5:20 is the translation of the Greek verb presbeuo which comes from the Greek adjective presbuteros which is often translated as either elder or elders. When Paul wrote "We are ambassadors he was referring to himself and Timothy. An appropriate translation of presbeuo would be eldering, which means Paul operated in the capacity of an elder.
The Greek verb 'presbeuo' should have been translated as 'eldering'. Paul was addressing in this letter accusations made against his apostleship. 2 Corinthians is often referred to as his letter of defense. Paul was imploring the Corinthian believers to be reconciled to Christ for having disputed his apostleship and for having followed those who weren't true apostles.
2 Cor 5:20 shows us that God chooses men to be ambassadors for Him, in His place, on earth. We need to understand the magnitude of the office of a minister and the responsibility given them.
In 1 Pe 5:1-3 Paul wrote how elders in the church are not to lord over those entrusted to them. In verse 3 the word 'kleros' means 'the charge allotted'. The New Living Translation renders 1 Pe 5:3 as-
Don't lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your good example.
This learly shows leadership is placed over the congregation by the Lord for the purpose of administration, nurturing, oversight, ruling, and teaching(Ac 11:30, 20:28, 21:18, 1 Ti 5:17, 1 Pe 5:2).
Kleros doesn't exclusively refer to the body of Christ.
It also refers to the casting of lots as when the soldiers parted Jesus' garments (Mt 27:35, Mk 15:24, Lk 23:24, Jn 19:24), the position of leadership given to an individual (Ac 1:17-25), the casting of lots when choosing a leader (Ac 1:26), the impartation of the Holy Spirit given to believers (Acts 8:21), the heritage of the Lord (Ac 26:18, Co 1:12), those whose care and oversight is delegated to the elder(s) of a church (1 Pe 5:3).
This man missed the boat on this one. The clergy is a biblical concept. He seems to be of the persuasion that leaders in the church today look at the church members as being 'morons'.
As for our English word 'clergy' it comes from comes from ME 'clergie' which comes from OF 'clergie' and VL 'clercua'. Both speak of those who served as clerks, due to being learned individuals. His assumption 'clergy' exclusively applies to all believers is fundamentally flawed.
boy you have been poisoned all the way around and taught to look at the bible through the stained lens of man made traditions. Id read the bible again. As far as Paul being an elder, you are right, he operated as an elder, of course because he was in the faith longer and knew more obviously, but so did all the apostles too, but Paul wasnt married and he said himself he isnt qualified to be an elder.
You assume I am poisoned. I would guess you are also assuming I am against house churches. I am actually involved with a friend who moved to Boulder CO to begin a house church plant.
I have been taught to look a the Bible through context, not pretext.
Thank you so much brother Jon, for your integrity, tenacity, & willingness to study & to "rightly divide the word of truth" (1 Tim. 2:15). And for fearlessly sharing God's heart & mind with us in the face of such wide-spread & flagrant error, And for striking at the heart of the foundations of the spiritual, emotional, psychological & financial abuse that has damaged, and held so many captive for so long!
May the Lord bless you & keep you! You are a Prince among men!
Keep telling the body of Christ this that we may be set free to do things Gods way and be free in Christ. I have been saying this same message for many years now.
Welcome to the club, been at it for over twenty five years...big problem is the rejection of biblical leadership. you believe that Romans 13 refers to the civil government instead of church leadership. So, what you're left with is a group that would follow a Hitler because they believe they are to bow down to the government and refuse God ordained leadership.
A lost and dying world is looking for "The House of the Lord" with the words "Hear ye...hear ye saith the Lord" and instead they are finding and hearing, "Ho-ho-ho...accept our way or hit the highway."
It is no mystery to learn the total number of individuals in "home-gatherings" today would become the second largest denomination in our United States.
So few seek just His face and not His fellowship and follow His command.
Our churches today are being built as museums to the self-proclaimed saints and not the gatherings for the wounded, broken and suffering as illustrated in the New Testament.
The system used by many of our organizational structured churches today are held together by promoting the emotional games of shame, guilt and blame and the politics of control and manipulation.
So you found out..control and manipulation. I been knocking my head against this for 35 years. Not very many people truly follow the Holy Spirit of God. Keep on telling the truth, brother. Amen.
Excellent message of truth. Thank you.
My3085 3 days ago
Left the man run fraud church 6 years ago and couldn't be closer to Jesus.
Pfsif 3 months ago
Who is the sovereign? To answer that question, we must turn to the pages out of the Bretton Woods Treaty Agreements. See: Article 7. The International bankers are the sovereign. This is the present structure. If you don't like it, REPEAL the treaty! But I have to warn you. If you do that, you will be ending our relations with the United Nation, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. What would Jesus have said about that?
See Luke 22 for the answer. It was His last command.
SupraSovereign 5 months ago
Who is the sovereign? To answer that question, we must turn to the pages out of the Bretton Woods Treaty Agreements. See: Article 7. The International bankers are the sovereign. This is the present structure. If you don't like it, REPEAL the treaty! But I have to warn you. If you do that, you will be ending our relations with the United Nation, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. What would Jesus have said about that?
See Luke 22 for the answer. It was His last command.
SupraSovereign 5 months ago
So therefore, there must be a Top Down structure in the church as a reflection of the Top Down structure in the U.S. government, as a result of co-opting from the illuminati Luciferian elite.
So, as Lucifer sits at the top of the global governing structure, dictating down to the churches so the pastors can teach their flock benine teachings...all for the good of the few. We wouldnt want the church to revolt. So, they keep matters simple. Sing a song, pay your 10% and cover dish meals. mmmmm
SupraSovereign 5 months ago
The 501 (c)(3) is there to insure the domestic tranquility. In other words, pastors are the leaders of the flock insuring that the fullness of knowledge isnt revealed to the sheeple. If that were to happen, there would be great unrest. For example, as globalization took root in the U.S. as of 1944, by supra-national treaty and illegally ratified in 1945, had the church known about it and its consequence to the nation and world, the sheeple would have revolted.
SupraSovereign 5 months ago
Priestcraft in any form is a person trying to help you put out the fire that is enveloping your house, while there own house is blazing and on fire as well. They have no spiritual leg up on the average person, just book learning. When will people wake up to the fact that leaders in the church take your money and are only interested in that? Some are sincere, no doubt, but I wouldn't trust ANY of them. They know nothing you don't know.
rovingdesertfox 5 months ago
If our so called leaders tending the sheep are not preaching to the lost in the city squares, highways and byways with the flock, then thats were I draw the line. Just ministering from 4 walls is also not biblical.
clayton7g 6 months ago
Totaly Agree!!
ivanasimic1 7 months ago
Jon adds to this video with a new one entitled: The Pastor Has No Clothes... Do a search for this title on YouTube and check it out.
TimPrice1965 8 months ago
I left the system church to follow Christ 6 years ago and have never looked back.
Pfsif 9 months ago
Very well said brother thank you, I know our Lord will bless you for making public this truth. It has taken me thirty years to understand this truth in my life, and now I understand the persecution and rejection I received for simply listening to our Lord! It reminds me of the religious leaders at the time of Christ. And oh how I yearn to share the power of Christ with others using my life. This has been difficult, yet God using the internet for his people now, and men like you.
LightshipChaplain 9 months ago
i guess you haven't read the context of 1 Cor.9: 1-14 that of an apostle who plants local church bodies and never received directly support from those who he was working with, lest he hinder the work of the gospel. Try than one! No mention of pastor receiving support ever! Apostles and prophets are foundational ministerially, Eph.2:20 not pastors, who are local, so get a job! Are you a Diotrephes kind of person?
tjg2008 10 months ago
@tjg2008 As an apostle, I see the extreme reaction towards me of pastors. LOL Your comment makes me laugh. And they will do all they can to stop an apostle from answering an apostolic call -- becuz it just doesn't "fit" in their mental structure of the church. Well, God is going to raise up the body. As an apostle, the highest goal is to raise up the body in apostolic anointing. And that's about to happen in the endtime move followed by rapture. Great vid.
graceexplosion 5 months ago
I guess you must not have seen 1 Cor. 9:14: "The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should make their living of the gospel." Paid Christians do ALL OF THE WORK. Free work is illegal: Deut. 25:4.
angusmcpherson 10 months ago
Acts 14:23 ordained elders in every church..elders is plural, of the church is singular. No such think as THE PASTOR OF A CHURCH ANYWHARE INTHE NEW TESTAMETN .No one ever directly adressed to the churches called pastor,in any New Testament episltes. The gifts given to the church are apostle,prophet,evangelist,pastor,teacher. Eph.4:11 The order is 1 Cor.12:28 pastor is not even listed. You play up the title. You should play down the role of pastor, in favor of apostles. Plurality is normati
tjg2008 10 months ago
Only the stupid sheep says he needs no shepherd,
tennesseetrumpet 10 months ago
Also , here is another lie that he told , Ananias was a Bishop in the church, or the overseer of pastors. He even died for his work as a Bishop / Pastor.
tennesseetrumpet 10 months ago
This guy is all wrong and unbiblical. Ephesians4:11 says that God gave some the office of Pastor. The term of Pastor as "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies" is supported by Thayers, Vines and Strongs.
tennesseetrumpet 10 months ago
As long as you still think you are special. And going to a special place just for you. With wealth and riches isn't that what every clergymen tell you.Honestly isnt that what you are waiting for ? It's all about the cheese at the end of a earthly maze. Religion itself is false promise and you think that your God will punish me forever in an unknowable hell. Who's really the asshole ? This is why I can't respect any clergy.
SHADOW10621 11 months ago
In agreement!!
ivanasimic1 1 year ago
I posted your video on my blog, and this is a part of one response I received, would you be gracious enough to respond to this question? "What I didn't hear addressed is the roles of deacons and bishops (or elders). I would like to hear what his views on these positions clearly pointed out in I Timothy as well as other passages. Who has authority to decide error in the doctrine taught by Jesus? How is church discipline carry out? I would like to hear his view on this." end quote
ASeedSower234 1 year ago
@ASeedSower234 Paul gave an authority structure for the church in 1 Cor 11:3 and "pastor" is not in it. In 1 Tim 5, what the ESV renders as "older man" in verse 1 is the same Greek root word (presbyteros) as "elders" in verse 17. In Mark 10:42ff, Jesus instructs the disciples about the proper way for them to "rule". Acts 15 illustrates how matters of error are worked out. Note that the apostles did not decide alone -- they participated as servant leaders. See also Gal 2:11-14.
tjotwo 1 year ago
@tjotwo -Better late than never I guess...5 months...gee you must get a lot of emails mate!
ASeedSower234 1 year ago
@ASeedSower234 It appears you have mistaken me for the video poster. I see our handles are similar. I hope God was able use me to sufficiently shed some light on your dilemma, though. Take care, Christian brother.
tjotwo 1 year ago
@tjotwo -Oh sorry there brother, at least you bothered to give me a reply, so thank you and GBU!
ASeedSower234 1 year ago
@ASeedSower234 Did you write Jon Zen's and did he give you his answer?
tjg2008 1 year ago
@tjg2008 -It was 5months ago, I don't write letters, just e-mails...if you instructed me at the time to do that, I am sure I would have e-mailed him, but no I have never heard from him...
ASeedSower234 1 year ago
@ASeedSower234 The HOLY SPIRIT is powerfully present through apostles and saints gain powerful conviction of truth. The Spirit brings to unity and maturity in agreement in sound and true doctrine. Pastors acting as doctrine police from their own perspectives -- do not maintain purity of the church in sound doctrine. (Look around and please consider.) When apostles are in the church, church discipline is carried out by power of the Spirit not human govt. ANATHEMA strikes men dead.
graceexplosion 5 months ago
AMEN!
DawnTransformed 1 year ago
A most excellent point, and truth made here brother!
ASeedSower234 1 year ago
Amen, we are all kings and priest; There should not be division in the Body, but there should be understanding of the those place in the office of ministry, to edify the Body. Ministry are ordained of God, set for the maturing of the believers (Body); without doubt Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors and Teachers are set for the perfecting of the saints. Are all Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors and Teachers? No, nor are we better then others but more mature; if called, taught sent of God... Peace
AchreousD 1 year ago
No to the Clergy/Laity Divide!
WE ARE ALL PRIESTS (1 PETER 2:5, 9).
jesusfreaks146 1 year ago 5
1 Timothy 5: 17(A)The elders who (B)rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who (C)work hard at preaching and teaching.
terriergal 1 year ago
@terriergal Matt 23:8-10 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. (ESV) Gifts and roles -- not positions and titles.
tjotwo 1 year ago
Actually most of congregational polity is formed around the idea that the pastor is not above the people in the congregation. Pastor/teacher is a man's office, but doesn't make him above the Word or more special than anyone else. This is precisely what congregational polity is built on. This guy talks like every church is run like the Roman church, the one that Luther was referring to in the cartoon Jon Zens referenced here. I have to wonder what rock he's been living under to miss this.
terriergal 1 year ago
It's sad if you're attending a church that has Clergy and Laity that emphasizes the separation to the point that you feel any different. It's also sad that your pastor doesn't make you feel like a valuable part of the Church. Interesting movement that you're trying to start, but I think the big problem is that you're going to allow people to control their own theology and it'll mellow out with a very low average theological and spiritual IQ. God doesn't care how you worship, just that you do.
DavidMPetty 2 years ago
Jesus said that God is a spirit and we MUST worship him in spirit and in truth. The Father seeks such to worship him. The Nicolaitan deeds and doctrines spoke in Rev.2:6,15 Jesus HATES! The taking of titles, Hierarchy over others like Diotraphies this is NOT Biblical leadership. There is no such thing as the pastor of a church ANYWHERE in the New Testament! Leaders have no authority in them selves Matt.22:25-27 are not lords 1Pet.5:3 and not hirelings.
tjg2008 2 years ago
@DavidMPetty
I would assert that the 'house church' is not a new movement, but rather a return to the original new testament standard of the Scriptures. All genuine doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness was given to these original Christians as they devoted themselves to the apostle's teaching and worshipped God in spirit and truth. They were not stupified, or controlled by their own theology.
esgatch 1 year ago
The Master intended to empower the people with His teachings. Egotistical men came along and sought to turn it into "power OVER the people".
silkcat51 2 years ago
Good to hear the Simple Truth that we are all priests.
Bless you for this message
worshipgathering 2 years ago
I thought there was only ONE priest now - Jesus Christ. Furthermore Jesus Christ is a quite distinct - hight priest like one in the order of Melchisedec.
konman001 2 years ago
konman001. Thank-you for the correction. I did a quick search of the Bible and Yes there is only one high priest now - Jesus Christ.
worshipgathering 2 years ago
@konman001 Did some more research, ask at our Bible Study. Sorry Konman001. The scripture does call us priests.
You are a royal priesthood, a choosen generation.
worshipgathering 2 years ago
Sooooooo true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
johneleven25 2 years ago
Amen. Very well done.
sounddoctorin 2 years ago
Finally TRUTH!!!!!
Brother563 2 years ago
I love this!
knelson79 2 years ago
AWESOME!
forrevival 2 years ago
You are absolutely "right on" in your analysis and analogy! But if the truth be known, the modern "church" is heavily influenced by Satan himself, i.e., that this is a business in the same fashion as the temple was when Jesus rebuked its leadership. The real "body of the Messiah" (the Church), in the end times is being developed by people such as yourself who are seeking the Lord God's truth, and not man's system of aristocracy and self promotion.....only for the truth seekers.
fred4588 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
When did I ever mention anything about pastors?
By the way, the word 'pastor' is in Ephesians 4:11.
As for the idea there shouldn't be a senior leader of a local church, how do you explain the use of personal pronouns in the 2nd person singular in Revelation 2 and 3?
The use of these pronouns reveals it was an individual who was being addressed in each church and not the church body. Which means these individuals were responsible for the church and accountable to the Lord.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
In Rev 1 a man is in the midst of 7 lamps, w/ 7 stars in his right hand. The Man = Jesus; the 7 lamps = 7 churches in Asia Minor; the 7 stars = 7 angels of the 7 churches. The Greek noun angelos, though translated angel, simply means messenger and can speak of human messengers as in Mk 1:2, Lk 7:24. In fact, the messengers in Rev 2&3 were human, each was the senior bishop of one of the churches as evidenced by the fact the pronouns used to address them are all in the 2nd pers. singular.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Thank you so much for making this video! Grace and Peace
morethanrubies89 2 years ago
Isn't fiction fun?
jimmybryght 2 years ago
This is great stuff. The same thing happened to me while siting in church a couple months ago, it didnt feel right for some reason so I asked God for answers, I got home and opened the bible and ran across so much stuff, starting with the nicolaitans in revelations 2:6 and God took it form there. I made web site about all He showed me. You can find the link on my channel, tell me what you think tjg. Thanks for the video. Im favoriting it and giving you 5.
PVFellowship 2 years ago
tuberngubern says, "I am a proponent of house churches. As long as the ones who oversee are qualified." And what are these qualifications, tuberngubern? Do we need your authorization to meet at home? Jesus said where two or three gathered in His name, He is in their midst. You, tuberngubern, are a false teacher.
garymaske 2 years ago
i had to inform tuberngubern that paul wasnt even an elder.
PVFellowship 2 years ago
What is your evidence?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
When did I say Paul was an elder?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
When did I ever say Paul was an elder?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Try reading Titus 1:5-7 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre. Also read 1 Tim 3:1-7.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
I don't think he is trying to say nothing happens without permission brother, or even lead. Christ is the head of His church and he leads us all by His Spirit. Older men, who teach by word and example are a blessing to the body and they bring a measure of maturity. They are only part of the Eph.4:11 gifit given to the church to bring the who body into the full stature of Christ. They are not to be control freeks order other around to their own advantage.
tjg2008 2 years ago
I will NEVER place myself under the headship of a mere man and will never enter these fraud assemblies called "churches". Only an evil man would want to control the Lords gatherings and replace Him as the head of the body. All "pastor" will give an account for the evil heart they have. Run from these places to the headship and fear of Christ not men!
Pfsif 3 years ago
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation...
...Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:7,17
Are you saying God cannot provide a church that is 'safe'?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Yes of course there are elders (plural) in the church (singular). Obey in Hebrews should be more translated persuade and is not the same word in Ephesians 6:1 Children obey your parents in the Lord. How elders function and how they are recognized by all in the assembly would be an important understanding for the saints. Elders who rule...that would not be authoritarian but by word and precept modeled in their own lives. Fatherly carring for others this is the idea
tjg2008 2 years ago
Obey is the translation of the Greek verb peitho and is in the second person plural as a present passive/middle imperative and in Hebrews 13:17 literally means to be persuaded to the point of obedience. I think some people have a hypervigilance in regard to the issue of authority and assume those who speak of the authority of elders believe elders are to be blindly followed and are above others.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Peitho is the word it also conveys the idea that after back and forth or going over as one in a battle field is engaged in conflict the one side yields to the other after this kind of engagment. I suppose it is to help fellowships come to resolve disputes over issues that older brothers have the discernment and knowledge that younger brother lacked thus they should yield. Do you have plural leader ship and is it all men or do you allow women elders?
tjg2008 2 years ago
ALL horrible translation used byvthe Devil and his cohorts to usurp Christ rightfull Headship of His Body. If you want the truth and I don't think you do, search it out and you will find it and free you from the bondage of man headed assemblies!
Pfsif 2 years ago
Why do you think I don't want the truth?
Who do the 7 angels in Revelation 2 represent? Some believe angels but they were men, and each presided over a church...someone has to be in charge. Are you assuming no one individual can properly take on such a responsibility and only a board of elders can rule do so? What is your evidence? It's true there are some who abuse their position but this is also seen in house churches. We mustn't throw out the baby with the bath water.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
What 7 angels are you talking about in Revelation 2? Chapter two is talking of the churches... the persecuted church,the loveless church,the compromising church and the corrupt church.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
In Rev 1 a man is in the midst of 7 lamps, w/ 7 stars in his right hand. The Man = Jesus; the 7 lamps = 7 churches in Asia Minor; the 7 stars = 7 angels of the 7 churches. The Greek noun angelos though translated angel simply means messenger and can speak of human messengers as in Mk 1:2, Lk 7:24. In fact, the messengers in Rev 2&3 were human, each was the senior bishop of one of the churches as evidenced by the fact the pronouns used to address them are all in the 2nd pers. singular.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Who is the pastor in Rome, or Corinth, or Ephasis, you don't find the word pastor in the new testment and you only find elders plural of the church singular. Practically where do you function in the ecclesia? What is your background? RC priest? I am interested to know. No such thing senior bishop typical characteristic of those who draw men unto themselves.
tjg2008 2 years ago
When did I ever mention anything about pastors?
By the way, the word 'pastor' is in Ephesians 4:11.
As for the idea there shouldn't be a senior leader of a local church, how do you explain the use of personal pronouns in the 2nd person singular in Revelation 2 and 3?
The use of these pronouns reveals it was an individual who was being addressed in each church and not the church body. Which means these individuals were responsible for the church and accountable to the Lord.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Eph. 4:11 Pastors plural no such thing as pastor singular in the New Testament. You point out prominence can't find it in the scriptures and messanger of the church in revealtions I'll stick with the translation of angel.
tjg2008 2 years ago
Why insist on the translation of aggelos as angel in Revelation 1, 2 and 3 when aggelos can also speak of humans as seen in Mt 11:10, Mk 1:2, Lk 7:24, 27, 9:52, 2 Co 12:7, and Ja 2:25?
The KJV translators deemed aggelos as 'angel(s)' because the hierarchy of the Church of England could not afford local churches to be self-governed, so the translators mystified the text with the use of angel, giving birth to the doctrine that an actual angel is over each church.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
What he is talking about is that the entire responsibility did not fall on one single person.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
No, I am not a RC priest.
So, your argument that there shouldn't be a senior leader is based on the word 'pastor' not appearing in the singular in the New testament?
That is an extrapolation and is devoid of any concrete evidence.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
No, it is because we shown in the New Testament where elders,deacons and bishops are spoken of, it is all plural. Look and Christ and His Apostles, there were many of them. Not just one. One didn't have authority over the rest(the Apostles).
hopemcc86 2 years ago
Are the passage you refer plainly stating there isn't tobe one leader 'to whom the buck stops'? What about Acts 2:17 where James is singled out? He had begun to take the oversight of the Church in Jerusalem, which we afterwards find him exercising in Act 15:1-29.
Who was John writing to in Revelation 2 and 3?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
The Greek word aggelos is a masculine noun. In each instance regarding the 7 churches of Revelation 2 and 3 aggelos is in the singular. The 'angel' of each church is actually human as evidenced by the fact that the 'aggelos' of the church of Ephesus is said to have left his first love, which is something only a human who has been redeemed through Christ could do. Angels do not love the Lord the same way believers love the Lord because the angels have never experienced redemption.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Each of the churches in Revelation 2 (and 3) are represented by a single 'angelos' which means 'messenger'. The 'angleos' in each church speaks of the senior bishop of the church.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
However, Revelations hasn't happened yet. That's first. Second, there are supposed to be elders, plural. Overseers. Not just one. And one elder doesn't have more 'authority' than any of the others.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
Revelation ahsn;t happened yet? The 7 churches in Asia Minor were real churches. Churches which John was commanded to send letters.
Yes, there is to be a body of elders, as in a presbytery as in 1 Tim 4:14 but how do we explain the indidviduals who were being addressed in Revelation 2 and 3?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
I never said that the churches weren't real churches, but the events that are described in Revelation hasn't happened yet. We are all supposed to be participating in the body, not just sit on a pew once or twice a week. Just because an individual was addressed(which happens all throughout scripture) does not mean that one person is to be in charge.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
Who in Revelation 2 was being accused of leaving their first love?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
James wasn't singled out. His name was used but the rest of that verse says "and to the brethren."
The church was accused of leaving its first love. Verses 1-7 was written to the Loveless Church.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
Comment removed
tuberngubern 2 years ago
So why was James the only one mentioned by name?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
James singled out from the group because he was the only one mentioned by name, which is to be singled out.
The church was not being accused of leaving its 1st love because the personal pronouns used are all in the SINGULAR, which means John was addressing an individual.
If John had been addressing the church as a whole, he would have HAD to use PLURAL 2nd person pronouns.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
There was one individual in each of the 7 churches who was responsible as evidenced by the fact that only one person from each church was being given correction, which means that individual was the one who was the leading elder. In fact, the mesenger of the church of Ephesus is told to repent and that if no repentance takes place the church would be removed from the presence of the Lord.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Take Rev 2 for example. After each letter, it says that anyone who has ears, let him listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. Not singular, not one person, but plural churches.
Elders are overseers. What tasks are given to elders? Titus 1:9
"holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
What is your Scriptural evidence that there isn't to be one elder with authority over the others?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Other than the fact that Elder is always plural in scripture? Acts 14:23= Elders(plural) in every churches, meaning each church had more than one. Acts 15:6= the Apostles worked with the Elders to resolve matters. 1 Timothy 5:17=Elders(plural) rule. They labor in scripture and doctrine. You must have the wrong verse, Acts 2:17 is Peter speaking. Its Peter's sermon.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
Acts 12:17
tuberngubern 2 years ago
But James was not the only one told to do something. It was James AND the others. To single him out, it would have had to have been just James.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
So why was James the only one mentioned by name?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
While James' name was used, he was not singled out for a task. It was James and the brothers. We don't know why because we were not there when it was written, were we? "Churches" usually means plural. Let me try to make this easier, what exactly is your point? That one person is supposed to rule over everyone? Are you Catholic?
hopemcc86 2 years ago
No I am not Catholic.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
James was the head Bishop of the church in Jerusalem and was the brother of Jesus. Not that he being the brother of Jesus gave him that position.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
In Acts 12:7 he was singled out, for a reason.
In Acts 15:13-18 he was given audience, for a reason.
In Acts 15:19-21 his decision was acknowledged, for a reason.
In Acts 21:18 he was again singled out, for a reason.
In Gal 2:9 he was (along with Peter & John) considered a pillar in the church, for a reason.
In Gal 2:12 he was known as the one from whom certain Jerusalem believers came, for a reason.
In 1 Cor 15:7 he singly was visited by our risen Lord, for a reason.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Acts 12 does not single James out, others were mentioned. In Acts 15, James was not the only one to speak. James was not singled out in Acts 21 either. Paul went with others to James and the elders where here. Paul is mentioned by name also, does that mean he was singled out? Elders(plural) are to lead, not singular. There were others who saw Christ alone. And there are different accounts and in different accounts, different people saw Him first. What is your point? Just get to it.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
Every church needs a 'point man' who oversees the church. Every leader needs to be surrounded by a body of elders to whom he can be accountable. James was the 'point' man in Jerusalem as evidenced by biblical, historical, and archaelogocal evidence.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Actually, every church needs point MEN. Elders,Deacons, ect.. always plural. If you want to follow one man, that is a personal opinion, personal preference.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
Comment removed
tuberngubern 2 years ago
A leader who does not teach or preach? So, he isn't a leader, he is like everyone else in that church.
hopemcc86 2 years ago
I think it's just a problem with terms not being defined right. The 'Church' is an entity that God sees. They are people in him. His body is called to continuously 'discern the body of Christ'. And they do this as they interact and at some point a person might be found to be a false Christian. "expel the immoral brother' for instance it says. So those *in* Christ simply act in authority and it's either real or it's man made. One God will bless, one will remain dead.
sounddoctorin 2 years ago
When the 7 messengers of the 7 churches in Revelation 2 & 3 were addressed - 2nd person singular pronouns were used. Meaning only 1 individual was addressed. These individuals werent angels. They were humans as evidenced by the accusations brought before each 1. For example, the messenger of Ephesus is told he has left his 1st love. This isnt something angels can do. After each 1 is addressed a general admonition is then directed to all the churches.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
So, according to your reasoning that a church is to a plural leadership and therefore no one is the 'big dawg' we can teachthat a man can have more then one wife because Ephesians 5:25 and Col 3:19 says husbands are to love their 'wives'?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
I never said that we couldn't have leaders.
You are misconstruing those verses. It is saying for all husbands to love their wives, meaning you love your wife, you father loves his wife, your brother loves his wife... We see from simply reading scripture that we are to have one spouse(New Testament). I do not know where you are getting your information. It's not my reasoning, it is what we findin scripture. Of course we have a 'big dawg'. It's God, although I like to use the name "Abba".
hopemcc86 2 years ago
If Jesus were here, the religious Christians would crucify Him again, not the muslims.
jurisnaturalist 3 years ago
He whom the Son sets free... is free indeed!!!! We are worthy in the eyes of
God to baptize fellow believers...also,
to help to lead the lost to the salvation of Christ Jesus!
Jesus called all of us to spread the gospel to
all creatures!!! Praise God!
We are the church...the body of believers!
We are brethern in HIM!!!
InHISWord2 3 years ago
Jesus Christ is here in the world by way of his people. Unless one obeys his word and applies what he has said there is no realization of the truth. Soap must be applied to ones body in order for one to be cleansed, similarly one must apply the gospel of Christ in repentance and faith before one can be cleansed of their sins and find peace with God. Religion is not relationship but bondage.Christ is a person we must know him which is life eternal.
tjg2008 3 years ago
they rule over the poor, not help the poor. if jesus was here he would tell them to sell ther riches and give it to the poor.
jayandersons 3 years ago 2
He is right on. The goal of the church today is to contruct bigger buildings and parking lots. Why have 20 million dollar building to house 5 thousand people for a 45 minute sermon once a week?
elar4563 3 years ago 8
very well said friend
jonbob100 3 years ago
good video. found it at searchingtogether org
jpj8675 3 years ago
He probably thinks 2 Cor 5:20 is stating that all believers are ambassadors.
tuberngubern 3 years ago
like also that all the body have the ministry of reconciliation right? Only those who are the holy man are given this ministry you would argue yet all of us in christ have been given the ministry of reconciliation.
tjg2008 3 years ago
Paul wrote, "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God." The word 'ambassadors' is a translation of the Greek VERB presbeuo (not a NOUN as the KJV suggests). Presbeuo comes from the Greek adjective 'presbuteros' refers to those who are appointed as overseers (elders/bishops). Notice the pronouns WE, YOU, and US in verse 20. To understand what Paul wrote we must ask, 'to whom do these pronouns refer?
tuberngubern 3 years ago
paul could say "we have the mind of Christ" not an exclusive statement and would include all that are IN Christ. 1Cor.2:16 similarly in 2 Cor.5:18 and hath given unto us the ministry of reconcilation. again applicable to those spoken of in Eph.4:11 just as applicable to those who are In Christ. Thus the mindset of the institutional way of thinking, we so need to hear and see what the Spirit is seeking to bring us out of the house of Saul (institutional leadership and churches)
tjg2008 3 years ago
The house of Saul?
tuberngubern 3 years ago
BTW I am a proponent of house churches. As long as the ones who oversee are qualified.
tuberngubern 3 years ago
When Paul wrote "but we have the mind of Christ" it isn't an all inclusive statement. He was referring to those called into the ministry, such as he and Sosthenes. It is evident he wasn't referring to all believers when we consider the next verse, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ." How could he, without opposing himself, tell the Corinthians they had the mind of Christ but then state they were spiritually immature?
tuberngubern 3 years ago
Are you trying to say ONLY those spoken of in eph.4:11 have the mind of Christ and everyone else does not?
tjg2008 3 years ago
The mind of Christ is not given at conversion, but is the result of maturing in the faith. Consider the context of 1 Cor 1:1-3:17, that there were divisions among the believers in Corinth as a result of identifying themselves as disciples of men rather than disciples of Christ. These believers were being carnally minded and not exemplifying the mind of Christ. This is why Paul could say that He and Sosthenes had the mind of Christ and why he could not 'feed' them with 'meat' but with 'milk'.
tuberngubern 3 years ago
Consider 2 Co 5:20 - the The Greek verb 'presbeuo' should have been translated as 'eldering' rather than as 'ambassadors'. - Now then, WE (Paul is referring to Himself, Timothy, ect) are eldering for Christ, as though God were pleading through us (Paul, Timothy, ect): we (again Paul, Timothy, ect) implore you (the Corinthian believers) on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
tuberngubern 3 years ago
paul wasnt an elder. read your bible and learn it before you go spouting off at the mouth. Paul himself said he wasnt qualified to be an elder.
PVFellowship 2 years ago
Before I go spouting off at the mouth? Why the contention? When did Paul say he wasn't qualified to be an elder? The word ambassadors in 2 Cor 5:20 is the translation of the Greek verb presbeuo which comes from the Greek adjective presbuteros which is often translated as either elder or elders. When Paul wrote "We are ambassadors he was referring to himself and Timothy. An appropriate translation of presbeuo would be eldering, which means Paul operated in the capacity of an elder.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
The Greek verb 'presbeuo' should have been translated as 'eldering'. Paul was addressing in this letter accusations made against his apostleship. 2 Corinthians is often referred to as his letter of defense. Paul was imploring the Corinthian believers to be reconciled to Christ for having disputed his apostleship and for having followed those who weren't true apostles.
tuberngubern 3 years ago
2 Cor 5:20 shows us that God chooses men to be ambassadors for Him, in His place, on earth. We need to understand the magnitude of the office of a minister and the responsibility given them.
tuberngubern 3 years ago
Paul wasn't stating that 'we' all have the ministry of reconciliation. Read the text and notice the use of the pronouns found in the passage.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
In 1 Pe 5:1-3 Paul wrote how elders in the church are not to lord over those entrusted to them. In verse 3 the word 'kleros' means 'the charge allotted'. The New Living Translation renders 1 Pe 5:3 as-
Don't lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your good example.
This learly shows leadership is placed over the congregation by the Lord for the purpose of administration, nurturing, oversight, ruling, and teaching(Ac 11:30, 20:28, 21:18, 1 Ti 5:17, 1 Pe 5:2).
tuberngubern 3 years ago
you are fighting a losing battle, are you a catholic priest by any chance?
PVFellowship 2 years ago
no I posted the video of brother Jon Zen's in Florida when I attended a house church conference in 2007.
tjg2008 2 years ago
when did Paul say he wasn't an elder or qaulified to be one?
tuberngubern 2 years ago
No I am not a Catholic priest. I am non-denominational.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Kleros doesn't exclusively refer to the body of Christ.
It also refers to the casting of lots as when the soldiers parted Jesus' garments (Mt 27:35, Mk 15:24, Lk 23:24, Jn 19:24), the position of leadership given to an individual (Ac 1:17-25), the casting of lots when choosing a leader (Ac 1:26), the impartation of the Holy Spirit given to believers (Acts 8:21), the heritage of the Lord (Ac 26:18, Co 1:12), those whose care and oversight is delegated to the elder(s) of a church (1 Pe 5:3).
tuberngubern 3 years ago
This man missed the boat on this one. The clergy is a biblical concept. He seems to be of the persuasion that leaders in the church today look at the church members as being 'morons'.
As for our English word 'clergy' it comes from comes from ME 'clergie' which comes from OF 'clergie' and VL 'clercua'. Both speak of those who served as clerks, due to being learned individuals. His assumption 'clergy' exclusively applies to all believers is fundamentally flawed.
tuberngubern 3 years ago
boy you have been poisoned all the way around and taught to look at the bible through the stained lens of man made traditions. Id read the bible again. As far as Paul being an elder, you are right, he operated as an elder, of course because he was in the faith longer and knew more obviously, but so did all the apostles too, but Paul wasnt married and he said himself he isnt qualified to be an elder.
PVFellowship 2 years ago
You assume I am poisoned. I would guess you are also assuming I am against house churches. I am actually involved with a friend who moved to Boulder CO to begin a house church plant.
I have been taught to look a the Bible through context, not pretext.
tuberngubern 2 years ago
Thank you so much brother Jon, for your integrity, tenacity, & willingness to study & to "rightly divide the word of truth" (1 Tim. 2:15). And for fearlessly sharing God's heart & mind with us in the face of such wide-spread & flagrant error, And for striking at the heart of the foundations of the spiritual, emotional, psychological & financial abuse that has damaged, and held so many captive for so long!
May the Lord bless you & keep you! You are a Prince among men!
emmanuelsprincess 4 years ago
Keep telling the body of Christ this that we may be set free to do things Gods way and be free in Christ. I have been saying this same message for many years now.
ApostleProphet 4 years ago
Welcome to the club, been at it for over twenty five years...big problem is the rejection of biblical leadership. you believe that Romans 13 refers to the civil government instead of church leadership. So, what you're left with is a group that would follow a Hitler because they believe they are to bow down to the government and refuse God ordained leadership.
Dreadmore 4 years ago
Good teacing Jon. God has used you to reshape the thinking of many Christians.
RoyIngle 4 years ago 2
good stuff jon! beautiful background too!
lasyone8 4 years ago 2
A lost and dying world is looking for "The House of the Lord" with the words "Hear ye...hear ye saith the Lord" and instead they are finding and hearing, "Ho-ho-ho...accept our way or hit the highway."
It is no mystery to learn the total number of individuals in "home-gatherings" today would become the second largest denomination in our United States.
So few seek just His face and not His fellowship and follow His command.
shine4him2 4 years ago 4
Our churches today are being built as museums to the self-proclaimed saints and not the gatherings for the wounded, broken and suffering as illustrated in the New Testament.
The system used by many of our organizational structured churches today are held together by promoting the emotional games of shame, guilt and blame and the politics of control and manipulation.
shine4him2 4 years ago 3
why does your church do that, or are just making sweeping generalizations?
Dreadmore 4 years ago
why does your church do that, or are just making sweeping generalizations?
Dreadmore 4 years ago
So you found out..control and manipulation. I been knocking my head against this for 35 years. Not very many people truly follow the Holy Spirit of God. Keep on telling the truth, brother. Amen.
qswfeh2121 4 years ago 3