DNA evidence joins the wagon load of missing evidences along with the golden plates and Zarahemla. & another. The comical ( Kerry Shirtoff ) Backyardprofessor , questionably entertaining, also claims that the absence of evidence is not proof that the book of Mormon is a fictional tale. The apology rings with words : missing, not found, kept by the lord, to be revealed, followed by an explanation that the evidence that god has for us is not physical evidence . Where is Zarahemla ?
he lost his faith & now considers himself agnostic.
Bart D. Ehrman is a leading expert on the apocryphal gospels. He was an evangelical until his scholarship led him to find contradictions & discrepancies in the Bible. He shifted to a fairly liberal Protestant church.
James F. Strange is a leading archaeologist & Baptist minister. He has kept his faith in spite of his scholarship.
These men all agree that the Bible is Not the accurate & inerrant word of God.....end
You seem reluctant to present a defense of your statements. I won't speculate why.
You are right though, neither of us will change the other's mind.
To show my studies are not limited to the LDS Church, I will leave some information about 3 Biblical scholars.
William G. Dever is one of America's best-known & most widely quoted archaeologists. He was an ordained evangelical minister at age 17 and has 2 theological degrees. Because of his Biblical studies....cont.
I have studied mtDNA enough to agree with Tom Murphy when he said that his studies don't prove the BoM to be true, but they don't prove it to be false either
I have been studing the LDS Church for over 50 yrs. I have yet to see "the lies pile up to overwhelming measure and the answers don't make sense..." What I do see is that you make generalized accusations against the LDS Church & the BoM. When I ask specific questions, you send me to someone else for answers....cont..
Martin Luther did not think Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations were divinely inspired.
We believe that revelation from God would give us the teachings found in the original scriptures.
The LDS Church is not a "reformed" church but the "restored" Church of Jesus Christ. We believe that when the Apostles died without being replaced, the priesthood authority of Jesus died also....cont...
What your sis-in-law said is not a teaching of the LDS Church. We believe that the original writers were inspired by God. We believe that devious men changed the original writings. By the early 2nd century, Christianity had fragmented into dozens of splinter groups with each group charging that the others used both forged & corrupted texts. Clement of Alexandria claimed Carpocrates corrupted scripture. Tertullian charged Marcion with deleting whole verses of Luke....cont.
But No One can prove that they also have Japanese ancestry.
If the tests cannot find any mtDNA from their Japanese grandmother, who is alive and well, how reliable are those tests in finding Israelite mtDNA from 2,000 yrs ago? The lack of Japanese mtDNA in those children does NOT mean that they are not part Japanese.
The lack of Israelite DNA in the American Indians does not disprove the Book of Mormon......end
Our 2nd daughter married a man whose father's paternal line is Danish, and his mother's line is Japanese. They have two sons & a daughter. All three children have the mtDNA of their mother, which is my wife's, which is from Sweden. The boys have their father's Y-chr, which is from Denmark.
Using the same tests that Murphy & Southerton used, one can prove that those children have Swedish ancestry, and that the boys have Danish ancestry too.....cont.....
The DNA used to condemn the BoM is mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). Women pass mtDNA to their children. All of us inherited our mtDNA from our mothers. The other genetic marker being used is the Y-chromosone (Y-chr), which is passed by men to their sons.
Tom Murphy & Simon Southerton say the BoM is false because Middle East mtDNA cannot be found among the American Indians. Southerton also says the same thing about the Y-chr.....cont.....
Classic Mormon double talk. Mormons are so good as speaking out of both sides of their mouths!
Bottom Line: anyone or anything that threatens what they believe can't be credible, because if it was then Book of Mormon would be bullshit (and we all know the Book of Mormon isn't bullshit.......JEEEEZ)
Put it another way. The ONLY challengers to the overwhelming evidence of non-Old World are LDS dogmatists. Not a single non-LDS scientist agrees with their position.
It's classic bait & switch - preach the BOM is true until someone points out the errors. This is also classic LDS apologia - ramble on about various aspects of biology, casually lie (peer review, BYU is a DNA center, opponents not trained) & invent.
It's the LACK of evidence that is so fatal to the BOM
WOW! He forgot to mention that BYU excepted DNA as an accurate science before this discovery.
Then he proceeds to say "the BOM was meant to be used as religious history and not to be confirmed as religious science. But yet, scientists and archeologist have been trying to disprove the Bible for century's now, but only discovering more evidence/accuracy of the Bible.This man is blowing smoke in the eye's of Mormons to cover up the fact that the BOM Is false!!! Focus on the Grace of Christ only.
@hammerogod The ease with which Saints lie is easily understood. ANYTHING that protects the church is permissible - denying history, ignoring science, inventing stories, avoiding wacky beliefs, obfuscating ("There's lots of evidence for the BOM - you just gotta know where to look") and worse, attempting to use science to support the BOM while bashing those who point out what science says about the BOM.
Nobody (except the LDS) thinks the DNA tests were invalid or incomplete. FAIR? LOL
There is so much evidence that the Book of Mormon is a false testimony inspired by a man, a man who had 43 wife's. Why? Perhaps no self control?
1 Cor 7:32-33 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife and his interests are divided
So, If one wife can hinder our relationship with God, then what would 43 wife's do?
does dna evidence refute the book of mormon? if dna evidence supported book of mormon claims then the church wouldnt have changed the book of mormon intro in 2007 from "the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians" to "the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians" =)
But if you want more, ooo there a shit load sorry, no cattle, sheep, wheat, barely, the wheel was not in the americas, no HORSES!!!! Sorry none at all, not one horse, so these epic battles with all these iron weapons and charrots, people dying by the thosands, yet we find not one horse, not one charriot wheel not one scrape of Iron at all, believe whatever you want but stop, stop trying to say anythign suports it sorry... Cheers
Sorry guys DNA, did prove that the native americas are not Hebrew at all, but the BOM if you want to go with factual evidence that says sorry guys its bullshit, its easy, the BOM places Iron Tools and weapons in the Americas prior too europeans, yet the claims for epic battles not one even arrow head, why cause they used stone weapons, just that in itself proves the BOM is wrong just that...
This is just Mormon apologists trying to bullshit you with their bullshit. The Book of Mormon is not true and no matter how hard they try it will never be. Don't believe the hype. Don't give any time to this.
The Book of Abraham papyri were thought lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. However, in 1966 several fragments of the papyri were found in the Museum of Art in New York, and in the LDS church archives. Upon examination by professional Egyptologists, the papyri were found to be common Egyptian funerary texts, dating to about the first century BC, and not Abraham as Joseph Smith claimed.
The Bible is true, but the book of Mormon is not. See:
Funny that there is now no scientific evidence of migration to America from Israel. I (a non-Mormon) came up with enough evidence (none from LDS sources) to convince my Jewish anthropogy prof. in 1974 that at least the some of Indians came from Israel. At that time some Mormons I knew told me some of the Indians had come from Asia as evidenceb by the Mongoliian mark at birth.
Also the lost tribes blended into the rest of the world - but obviously there is no genetic evidence - DILUTION.
You don't need DNA to tell that native americans are Asian you can see it in them they look mongaloid not middle eastern at all just look at the hairless faces thats not a middle eastern quailty.
The biggest problem for Christians and all other non mormons is this. You can't disprove something that doesn't exist. These BYU guys act like they are on to something because they are saying science can't prove something that never happened in the first place anyways. Thats like saying they are not right because science can't prove that santa claus doesn't exist.. Mormonism is not Christianity, and joseph smith had 30 wives, most of which were between the age of 14 and 20. Disprove that.
The first post-World War II visit by an LDS leader was certainly the longest, as Elder Ezra Taft Benson spent nearly the entire year of 1946 traveling on a relief assignment throughout war-devastated Europe.
The LDS Church's three-member First Presidency today includes two men with close ties to those areas — President Thomas S. Monson, whose nurturing to church membership and church efforts in the former German Democratic Republic began in 1968; and his second counselor in the First Presidency, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, a native of the former Czechoslovakia and post-war adolescent refugee whose life path took him to both sides of Germany.
There is stylistic evidence for the Book of Mormon being concocted by Joseph Smith. The whole thing reads like a pastiche of an Old Testament chronicle, a rather dull one.
@BesACB You mean writing in english out of date by two centuries means that you're not hearing God's voice and are actually just trying to sound like the King James Bible?
You're suggesting only a handful of people did DNA research... claiming only your own BYU researchers are the only ones capable of doing it. Mormon communities do accept dna research to trace family roots yet they dispute it for this issue
"...what the critics have done is look through scientific literature and pick out things which support their point of view while conveniently ignoring some complicated factors"
Mitochondrial DNA has proved a marvelous tool for tracing human history. Mothers pass it down to offspring almost intact—unlike nuclear DNA, the genetic material commonly used in criminal investigations ("Haven't Got a Clue? Maybe DNA Will Do," U.S. News & World Report, July 24, 2000).
The problem for Mormonism is that mitochondrial DNA supports the view that the principal ancestors of Native Americans were people from eastern Asia.
So wait...Science tells us that American Indians are NOT from Jerusalem but in fact came from northern asia and you still argue the findings? I saw zero proof or sources in any claims made in this video besides hearsay and appeals to authority.
The speaker is obviously NOT a scientist and therefore not an authority figure with any weight to his arguments. And this is what being a hypocrite is all about. You know your beliefs are false but you keep defending/preaching because it pays the bills.
DNA evidence proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that all Amerindian populations that have been genetically tested are Mongoloid. It's suffice to say that the vast majority of Amerindian populations have had it's DNA taken and examined. Modern day Jewry and modern day Amerindians share no common Semitic nor Mongoloid DNA, and are therefore NOT related from a single ancestor less than 6000 years ago as the Bible claims.
It is certain you object to the video, but readers that listen to you spout off lies can only draw one conclusion. That you didn't listen to what he said.
Congratz. Because the words of these men and their rigorous science methods are honest where the anti-mormons are lying thru their teeth. again congratz.
Unfortunately it's not worth watching mostly because you just can't see the screen and he doesn't say much. Skip the first one and jump straight into the second one.
Don't bother listening to all of this. It's just Mormon apologists talking AROUND the subject in a cocky manner. Plus, they work for the Church, so what do you THINK they're going to try to prove?!!!
@Roymorrison uhhh, OF COURSE we're going to try and prove that our religion is true. That is not in ANY way wrong. Watch "DNA Evidences of the Book of Mormon Geography" by Rodney Meldrem (it's not on youtube sadly so you'll have to borrow it from someone, or buy it). There's no apologies there! ^_^
All the alleged evidence supporting the BOM can be summed up in one word. "Plausibility". Unfortunately, plausibility still isn't proof. Mormons stretch plausibilty to it's limits and beyond. When the bom is finally able to prove it's claims at least as much as secular historical documents then maybe it will be allowed to lick the bible's boots. Until then I will consider it to be the greatest joke ever perpetrated on rational thinking mankind.
Also don't be afraid to ask your leaders tough questions and call them on anything that appears to be BS. I did when I became a christian. I would not accept "maybe" arguments or "it's plausible that this is the way it happened"...etc. I probably gave several pastors headaches and maybe even made them question their faith. But now I have a stronger faith because of it. I pressed in for the truth agressively and would not let up. This is what your faith needs to stand up against or it's worthless
The introduction to the 1981(LDS) The Book of Mormon states,"The Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
LDS MORMON PROPHET Joseph Smith stated the following:
"....The Lamanites, through transgression, became a loathsome, ignorant and filthy people, and were CURSED with a SKIN of DARKNESS yet, they have the promise, if they will believe, and work righteousness...they shall become a WHITE and DELIGHTSOME people..."
:The Latter-Day Saints Millennial Star, vol. 14, p. 418 "
Joseph Smith would put the SEER STONE into a HAT,and put his face in the HAT,drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.A piece of something resembling parchment would appear,and on that appeared the writing.One character at a time would appear,and under it was the interpretation in English...Thus the Book of Mormon was translated...(LDS MORMON CHURCH MAGAZINE Ensign,Jul 1993,61)
The native americans have been DNA tested (ones who were 100% native American and not mixed) and there isn't even one drop of Jewish in them. They are mongoloid in origin. The book of mormon is just a bad joke
The introduction to the 1981(LDS) The Book of Mormon states,"The Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
"...WHITE...and DELIGHTSOME...the Lord God did cause a SKIN OF BLACKNESS to come upon them (2 Nephi 5:21)."
LDS PROPHET Spencer W. Kimball said: I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today...they are now becoming WHITE and DELIGHTSOME, as they were promised...General Conference Report, October, 1960. Improvement Era,December 1960, pp.922-923
(Laughs back) I assume you're an evangelical anti-Mormon? Forgive me if you are not. You take on their seedy, loathsome, tone. You appear to have been offended by the church as a whole or more likely, an individual in the church. I can't think of any other rational reason you would be so angry and eager to tell us Mormons to, "enjoy hell... For that Im sad because you have been misled. I'm so thankful for the restored church of Jesus Christ. I believe in Christ and love sharing it!
LOL. He said nothing about the actual research yet. Whether American Indians trace their genetics back to Middle East is rather easily proved or disproved.
All of the arguments in these videos boil down to "science is hard!"
They do not offer any evidence to support the hypothesis that there are any existing descendants of the Lamanites, which is fine, taken by itself, I can accept that the Book of Mormon could be true even if there are no living descendants of that population.
However, when I was a kid, I was taught in church that all of the native American populations were descendants of the Lamanites. Lame excuses for blatant lies.
If you would go to our home page new discoveries have come to light regarding DNA & the Book of Mormon. I guess we were right. Anyway, DNA no matter for or against the BOM is still new and must be improved upon. Please check out the video on our home page. thanks.
"However, when I was a kid, I was taught in church that all of the native American populations were descendants of the Lamanites."
-It's possible also that it was never taught to you, but that you thought so, I thought so not because I was taught so, but because it elt obvious to me, now that I think it more critically, it feels impossible, but as a kid it was obvious because of different way of thinking about the matter. some LDS leaders have known this not to be the case since 1844
Another weak apology. I don't have any physical evidence of the lessons, but I have clear memories of lessons as recently taught as 1999 (when I was certainly not a kid) where Polynesians in Laie Sunday school meetings talked about how they were descended from Lamanites.
They were very proud of that heritage. Their inclusion in the doctrine was a major factor in their faith. One friend left because he felt his trust had been violated when he learned more about DNA.
passed down the paternal line. The detectable (cont)...variations are the result of mutations over time, and not recombination. Since there are a limited number of these variations in mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA strains, they are ideal for studying population genetics and the origins of people groups.
"It is impossible to trace DNA through many generations. After a certain number of generations, the DNA of ancestors becomes diluted beyond recognition." This statement is untrue for mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA, which are precisely the types that have been used to determine the ancestry of Native Americans. These types of DNA are passed down intact from generation to generation, unblended, and undiluted. Mitochondrial DNA is passed down the maternal line, and Y-chromosome DNA is...(cont)
"Haplogroup X demonstrates a genetic connection between Hebrews and Native Americans." This is a typical argument that employs a great deal of scientific jargon designed to give an appearance of reason, but actually backfires when all the facts are made known. In simplest terms, haplogroup X is actually found among populations in north and central Asia, which lends further evidence to support the connection between Native Americans and Asians.
but if the haplotype x is found in middle east and europe too, then it doesn't exclude the possibility of the migration from the middle east, what about the egyptian mummies that had coca in them, where did this coca come from if not from americas?
Genius if only some evidence of haplotype x is found in europe and the middle east. While numerous groups in Asia had it. All this proves is that some Asians migrated to europe and the middle east, or had some relations leading to some children with small strains of the DNA. Thus only a small population of Europe and middle east having this DNA, while a large portion of Asia has it.
What's the logical conclusion??? Bingo, they came from Asia.
(cont.)...the Asian incursions into the American continent, which many experts place at anywhere between 15,000 and 50,000 years ago. It should be noted that there is a significant degree of disagreement among experts about the reliability of genetics as a timing device. All that said, it was never the video's purpose or intent to contribute to any sort of debate over this. The video's main objective was to answer the question: What is the genetic origin of Native Americans?
"The DNA video does not address that the same science used to refute the Book of Mormon also challenges the Bible." This change-of-venue tactic is hardly a valid defense of the Book of Mormon. Nevertheless, the science that disproves the Book of Mormon (population genetics) actually validates the biblical record; for example, the relatedness of Near East peoples is clearly established by population genetics studies. Sometimes this challenge focuses on the implications of the timing of...(cont.)
"DNA science isn't sufficiently advanced to make such conclusive statements." This argument is ridiculous, especially when you consider the irony that LDS researchers have happily been using genetics in their geneological studies for years. In many ways, population genetic studies (such as those done on Nat.Amer.) are more straightforward and reliable than the genealogical studies, because they examine the non-recombinant mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA, which remain intact and...(Cont.)
...are a remnant of the house of Israel, then there would by necessity be at least some surviving Hebrew or Semitic DNA in a statistically significant population sample, yet none has been found.
Please go to our home page and watch the main video. Did you know new evidence has come forth!Instead of blindly quoting critical text of the LDS church.--can we say 47%---please watch the video for more info.
"We don't know what Lehi's genes looked like, so how can we presume to identify his descendants?" The fact is, if Lehi did exist, then we would know what his genes looked like--the Book of Mormon clearly states that he was Israelite. The genetic testing on Native Americans would have revealed Near Eastern DNA, which would have included all Semitic peoples—Jews, Israelites, even Arabs. If the "principal ancestors of the Native Americans" were truly Lamanites, which according to the BOM,...
Man weak opening arguments. The critics are only using information from EXPERTS. They didn't even come up with this research themselves. They only collected the data, Hmmm doesn't this make it seem like it's more objective. They've used the concrete information from the experts of this field, not their own, theres no chance of a bias then, right?
"The book of Mormon is religious history?? not actual history", did the presenter just admit this? The Smithsonian agrees, no archeological proof.
You just don't get it. The test weren't run with intention of seeing if "Lamanites" were the ancestors of modern days indians, because they first of all, had no way of comparing markers, and secondly they wouldn't know it they saw it. The fact that the critics didn't do the tests themselves is only incident to their lack of commitment to seeking the truth of their position.
"You just don't get it. The test weren't run with intention of seeing if "Lamanites" were the ancestors of modern days indians"
Yeah you're right, they were run to seek answers, Truthful answers. Not to find some made up lost jewish tribe. They were simply trying to find out where the Native Americans originated from and migrated from. Through DNA proof and archeology they know where they came from and what happened. The battles with no shred of evidence. Not one objective observer can find.
"How can you find battle grounds when you aren't told where to go precisely??? dum comment and all your previous posting lost value."
Exactly, no one can find any battlegrounds, when you're not told where they are. Hey do you think Joseph Smith got any hints from his jewish native american angels? Well don't worry I'm sure they'll find those battle grounds one day, and be completely vindicated. Hey I wonder how hard is it to find any shred of evidence from a battle where millions died.
"Exactly, no one can find any battlegrounds, when you're not told where they are."
The book of mormon tells where they are, but we as modern people don't know where those places described in the book are, that knowledge is lost. The biblical locations are partly known only because of traditions and locations bare the same names today. If we had the same intel on the bom, it would be easy. None of the battle sights of the bible with the hundereds of thousands of dead have been found either
I KNOW that no one can find any of the ancient sights named in the Book of Mormon. These places did not exist. That's the problem. That's why the Smithsonian never declared the book of Mormon as a historical book. No one can agree to the locations of these so call real ancient civilizations. No weapons, no pottery, not one shred of evidence to show they were jewish tribes in NorthAmerica during the time described in the BOM. Most if not all the ancient sites in the bible have been found.
Smithsonian don't think that the bible is fully historical, only partially. Pottery, weapons andmany things have been found from america. They weren't jewish, but from ephraim and manasseh.
I think it's funny that you declare bible as ancient book :D It's obvious even to a child, it's been among our civilization for about 1000 years as the bible, but it's manuscripts have been recorded to exist onger. It still doesn't prove that Jesus died for our sins, that's just silly to think it would prove.
Not fully historical, compared to not historical at all.
"It still doesn't prove that Jesus died for our sins"
Sounds like you're reaffirming what most other Christians believe. That Mormons aren't really Christians. Hence the BOM is the most correct book ever written. Sounds like you feel this way Jarkko, that you don't need to read the bible or worry about what Jesus did.
DNA never proved what Jesus did or didn't do. Too bad DNA has proven 99.4 percent certain of where NA's came from.
All the scholars who are christian, also say that the bible doesn't prove that Jesus died for our sins, it's obvious. The book of mormon talks about Jesus and his works, but as a matter of fact, I read the bible more than the boo of mormon I'm right now making my own note version of the new testament. Dna has not proven any percentages yet, since the work still continues and is not set on stone and possibly never will be. Still Dna from europe and even traces to jewish has been foun now.
Good luck with your faith walk. There's nothing wrong with faith. As long as it's based on something with a solid and faithful foundation. I know MANY Christians are not Christ like, I know in all religions they have those that fall short. But as bad as Human Beings are with regard to religions. I think most religions are good and based on something that has some foundation in reality. Unfortunately I do not even see this with John Smith's story. Ex Polygamy, curse with black skin.
Problem is that You got Smiths name wrong, how much other stuff then is also wrong if you don't even know his name? Read Josephs Diary if you want to learn from him. He never claimed that blacks are cursed, that was brigham youn who got that idea from the prevailing protestant thought of the day. And polygamy was practiced by abraham, Jacob, Moses, David and solomon, also some mighty kings afterwards, who were blessed by the lord, so you don't make sense right now.
Don't you find any of these things weird. Not being able to definitively declared where the ancient sites are??? Not one shred of evidence to show these people existed. No weapons, no pottery, NO BONES, I mean in the bible, if you want to find the ancient mountains, the oceans, the villages mentioned, you can find them, they've uncovered the old temples, there is evidence! that's why the Smithsonian Museum declared the bible a historical ancient book. The BOM has been disproven over time.
How on earth could you definitely declare the sites, when the book has come to us instantly in a relatively new world where none of the ancient names can be interpreted correctly and where the places have been renamed wirth spanish names? Archeology has found evidence that book of mormon is plausible in many ways, but because our societies haven't inhabited this continent, no one has been able to trace the traditions and history as with the bible.
Sounds good to me. Problem was you just said in your previous post that
"None of the battle sights of the bible with the hundereds of thousands of dead have been found either"
Did you just make a mistake, or were you outright lying???
In the bible, they had prophets make predictions. Those predictions and prophecy's came true. If I'm not mistaken almost every single prophecy said by Smith did not come true. and the FOUNDATION of his word has no evidence. Where's the definative proof?
Actually Smith had loads of prophecies come true, some are yet to be fulfilled, I have lists of those I can send it to you in a private message if you want
Nostradamus made plenty of "prophecies" that his followers claim came true. If you word anything broad enough you can make anything a correct prediction.
did nostradamus have followers? I thought that his works were found at a later date, he was dead by the time his works were recovered as far as I remember. Why couldn't he have a giht for visions? I don't see anything wrong with that.
Just because it's old, doesn't mean it can't be substantiated. That's how history and science work together. We can see a somewhat clear picture of what happened. Thanks to the science and history and common sense we've been able to piece together basically the entire history of mankind and this planet.
Smith's story makes absolutely no sense. I mean the key central idea of Jewish tribes coming to North America at that time. Impossible (following the lineage of Christ) No real proof.
Thanks to the science and history and common sense we've been able to piece together basically the entire history of mankind and this planet.
-You must be joking right. The fact that christ has his lineage has nothing to do with a ephraimite lineage separeting to america. Plus you haven't read much of the indian legends of their roots, they have some impressive parallels to the book of mormon, loads of indians were converted to te church because of them in fact.
I was about to say the same to you, I think it's you who is trying to convince yourself, thus denying the latest findings in science that support the book of mormon dna from middle east including.
Convince myself???? You mean I'm secretly thinking of joining the Mormon church but can't because of the science????!!!!! Or I secretly think Joseph Smith was right???????!!!!!!!!
It's all true Jarkk I secretly long to find something that made sense, that had strong foundations, that was based on truth. I will trust this new evidence, please link me to this new overwhelming evidence, that shows concrete 100 percent proof that Native Americans came from the Middle east.
I'm trying to keep cool LOLOLOL. Right, I'm afraid a religion made up by a sexual predator with no education might be real LOL.
You claim there is new DNA evidence that proves without a shadow of doubt that Native Americans came from Isreal. I've looked for this new powerful evidence, I've yet to find it published by any recognized scientific journal. Could you point me to this new evidence.
Now if only you could find one single archeological evidence , or better yet one single landmark.
A lot of archeological evidence and landmarks have been discovered to help "prove" the Bible yet Christianity isn't the fastest growing religion nor is it the largest religion on earth. Hmmmm maybe "proving" your religion isn't the most important thing. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored on earth today and that a living prophet is directing the Lord's work and I know that through the Spirit! I love learning about and following Jesus Christ :)
"the Bible yet Christianity isn't the fastest growing religion nor is it the largest religion on earth. Hmmmm maybe "proving" your religion isn't the most important thing."
What is this a popularity contest?? Why did you bring this up. I never mentioned anything about Christianity being the fastest or the largest. Just that historical places can at least be found from the bible, not so with the mormon book.
Hey Jarkko, can you also explain to me why the book of Abraham has those made up stories of his family in ancient Egyptian scrolls. Or why the had of Osiris was replaced with the head of a human being and how Smith got the entire book from a simple burial scroll that's only some feet long. I mean I never realized ancient Egyptian characters had such complex long meanings.
I have debated this book of abraham topic with many and they all fail on the same weak assumptions, but i'm not here to talk about this topic, it's dna discussed in here.
LOL, let me guess they failed because you said so LOLOL. Powerful evidence there, No wait, I think I going to believe the documentary makers who actually discovered the evidence, the original scrolls used, and the language experts to refute everything made up by smith.
The most basic of common sense information being, why would an Egyptian burial scroll only a few feet long, contain this long drawn out history of a JEWISH family.
hhubble, your ignorance is laughable. Egyptian burial scroll=a history of a Jewish family? I assume you're speaking of Lehi's family? That history was found on the plates not the egyptian scroll. I believe you're meaning the story of Abraham found on the burial scroll? Either way, do yourself a favor and do some honest reading outside of the anti-mormon filth you've apparently been reading, or should I say "watching?"
"your ignorance is laughable" Is this a direct quote from Jesus??? or was this Joseph Smith's reaction to people actually listening to him when he said Native American's came from Israel.
Yeah I mentioned the Egyptian scroll, because this was another major lie by Smith, why do you think I mentioned it? because I couldn't tell the difference between the book of abraham and the BOM. I brought it up to point out another huge lie created by Smith with another B.S translation.
@hhubble really? haha keep digging your head further into the sand,you have pointed anything except exposing how "christ" like you are towards the mormons
When I was in the Mormon church, people openly spoke of blacks as being cursed. They still couldn't get into the Mormon priesthood. Pretty sick, eh?
Christianity teaches something different. Christ told us God's truth: All those who believe in and follow Him are His children, regardless of any human differences.
And the Bible tells us that the desire to be a god began with Satan, the Devil. It's the first big lie. Mormons believe they will become gods with their own planets.
actually the bible is one of the most racist book s there are if you actually read what you see in the text. Christians in america are racist even today, not all of them, but many are, baptist and methodists appealed to the bible in their claim that negro slavery is the will of God.
Mormons tok the blacks into their church even without the priesthood, but the other christians secregated blacks to form their own black churches. Learn the history before open ignorantly mouth.
I know the history well , and if you know even today that the ADL is a significantly far more segregated church than other real christian churches. It is well documented that the mormon church from the founder and to the present day that the mormon church views blacks as the son of cain . What you need to do is lay down your ignorance and find the real truth , not your truth , or the version of the truth your leaders have told you , as the mormon church has changed doctrine to suit them.
in london the churches have over 70 % blacks in lds churches and even a black stake president.
Again, you gave nothing to answer the fact that the bible is racist according to todays standards, and who do you refer as real christians among the 20 000 different sects?
even today many american baptists view blacks as the sons of cain, it was very common tradition in a protestant thinkers and some lds also got caught on it, but haven't been in a long time thinking that is the case.
Stop adapting from my posts , know what you speak of . I have said in my original posts that ADL view blacks as the sons of cain , and that is fact , regardless of the memberships of blacks in the LDS church . Many blacks are members of the sothern baptists and evangelicals as a whole . The ever-changing doctrine of your religion amuses me , and the misguided followers saddens me.
There was never any official doctrine on the priesthood ban, Kimball and other prophets after him said that they don't now the real reason. Prophets before gave speculations and opinnions on the matter, but they were never canonized as a church doctrine, which makes the case that the sons of cain thing isn't a doctrine, but it was a doctrine in the baptist an other american christian churches in the 19'th century and was the source where young and others got caught on the idea.
-Paul foretold nothing, he was only affirming his authority over angels, since there was some sort of angel worship occurring as philippians letter mentions. Paul was in fact caling peter the preacher of another gospel as it's evident from the 2 chapter. he wasn't foretelling specificaly about angel, he mentioned tha if anyone, us, or even an angel, so the angel was not the subject.
To quote Joseph Smith - "... all at once the room was illuminated above the brightness of the sun and an angel [Moroni] appeared before me, ... he said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham ...". In this unambiguous revelation received by JS in 1835, Moroni states the Indians to be of Hebrew descent. It renders redundant all the complex excuses dreamt up by the mopologists to explain the proven Asian origins of the native American peoples. If Moroni got that so wrong, what else ??
Guess what...new DNA evidence proves that 9 out of 18 alleles found in Native Americans are of Middle Eastern descent (47% to be exact). What do you have to say about that...let me guess I am wrong...well my friend I am not and now I guess critics of the LDS are going to have to find a new subject. Once again the Book of Mormon prevails.
cvlSoft, I saw the same vid. Typical fairldsorg dissimulation. They are mischievous. They don't lie directly, they deceive by omission and knowingly (which is worse). What they omitted in this case was that the date of separation of these alleles from the eurasian mainstream occurred 14,000yrs ago. This additional info' renders their case specious since this is much too early to have any relevance for the BOM story.
Interesting acording Bible Cronology God created Adam 6000 BC if "these alleles from the eurasian mainstream occurred 14,000yrs ago" Then the indians are older than Adam. Your theories are attacking both the BOM and the Bible. another point if eurasian people existed from 14000 ago until now then in 600 BC existed eurasian DNA in americas. Isn't that relevant enough?!!!
Excellent videos. There is SO much evidence that is not commonly known. If critics would spend 1/10th of the time at least looking at the evidence, instead of having their noses buried in biased anti-Mormon rhetoric, many arguments would disappear overnight.
You are wrong Splitspeeds. The Archeological and DNA evidence doesn't prove the bible. There's many places in the Bible that no one knows where they are!!! DNA evidence also is against the Bible, DNA evidence puts the men coming from apes evolution and millions years in the past. DNA evidence is against Adam & Eve story in Genesis.
Professor Thomas Murphy is often cited on this matter . By his own admission, Murphy's own research 'disproves' the biblical assertion that the peoples of the Earth are descended from Noah.
I've gotta say your belief in evolution requires alot more faith than mine in creationism. There's a reason we've got the saying,"the missing link", because it is in fact missing. Your people are just as bad as the those of opposing views, namely christians, jews, etc. Just blindly follow what other says is fact.
ANTI MORMONS DEBUNKED AGAIN!
MrMFHORN 2 months ago
DNA evidence joins the wagon load of missing evidences along with the golden plates and Zarahemla. & another. The comical ( Kerry Shirtoff ) Backyardprofessor , questionably entertaining, also claims that the absence of evidence is not proof that the book of Mormon is a fictional tale. The apology rings with words : missing, not found, kept by the lord, to be revealed, followed by an explanation that the evidence that god has for us is not physical evidence . Where is Zarahemla ?
kramd1 7 months ago
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kramd1 7 months ago
@jesusourhealer
he lost his faith & now considers himself agnostic.
Bart D. Ehrman is a leading expert on the apocryphal gospels. He was an evangelical until his scholarship led him to find contradictions & discrepancies in the Bible. He shifted to a fairly liberal Protestant church.
James F. Strange is a leading archaeologist & Baptist minister. He has kept his faith in spite of his scholarship.
These men all agree that the Bible is Not the accurate & inerrant word of God.....end
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
You seem reluctant to present a defense of your statements. I won't speculate why.
You are right though, neither of us will change the other's mind.
To show my studies are not limited to the LDS Church, I will leave some information about 3 Biblical scholars.
William G. Dever is one of America's best-known & most widely quoted archaeologists. He was an ordained evangelical minister at age 17 and has 2 theological degrees. Because of his Biblical studies....cont.
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
I have studied mtDNA enough to agree with Tom Murphy when he said that his studies don't prove the BoM to be true, but they don't prove it to be false either
I have been studing the LDS Church for over 50 yrs. I have yet to see "the lies pile up to overwhelming measure and the answers don't make sense..." What I do see is that you make generalized accusations against the LDS Church & the BoM. When I ask specific questions, you send me to someone else for answers....cont..
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
We agree with Paul when he said, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."
The faithful carried on as best as they could with they had. The "grievous wolves" did all they could to rip the flock apart.
We believe that is the reason Joseph Smith was called by God, the Father & His Son, Jesus Christ to restore His Church.....end
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
Martin Luther did not think Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations were divinely inspired.
We believe that revelation from God would give us the teachings found in the original scriptures.
The LDS Church is not a "reformed" church but the "restored" Church of Jesus Christ. We believe that when the Apostles died without being replaced, the priesthood authority of Jesus died also....cont...
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
What your sis-in-law said is not a teaching of the LDS Church. We believe that the original writers were inspired by God. We believe that devious men changed the original writings. By the early 2nd century, Christianity had fragmented into dozens of splinter groups with each group charging that the others used both forged & corrupted texts. Clement of Alexandria claimed Carpocrates corrupted scripture. Tertullian charged Marcion with deleting whole verses of Luke....cont.
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
One other question: who are "the experts in the field especially the ones that have absolutely no bias towards religion whatsoever?"
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
You said, "if the bible is wrong per the Mormon teachings..."
Which Mormon teachings say the Bible is wrong?
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
But No One can prove that they also have Japanese ancestry.
If the tests cannot find any mtDNA from their Japanese grandmother, who is alive and well, how reliable are those tests in finding Israelite mtDNA from 2,000 yrs ago? The lack of Japanese mtDNA in those children does NOT mean that they are not part Japanese.
The lack of Israelite DNA in the American Indians does not disprove the Book of Mormon......end
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
Our 2nd daughter married a man whose father's paternal line is Danish, and his mother's line is Japanese. They have two sons & a daughter. All three children have the mtDNA of their mother, which is my wife's, which is from Sweden. The boys have their father's Y-chr, which is from Denmark.
Using the same tests that Murphy & Southerton used, one can prove that those children have Swedish ancestry, and that the boys have Danish ancestry too.....cont.....
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
@jesusourhealer
The DNA used to condemn the BoM is mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). Women pass mtDNA to their children. All of us inherited our mtDNA from our mothers. The other genetic marker being used is the Y-chromosone (Y-chr), which is passed by men to their sons.
Tom Murphy & Simon Southerton say the BoM is false because Middle East mtDNA cannot be found among the American Indians. Southerton also says the same thing about the Y-chr.....cont.....
GaryKColeman 8 months ago
Classic Mormon double talk. Mormons are so good as speaking out of both sides of their mouths!
Bottom Line: anyone or anything that threatens what they believe can't be credible, because if it was then Book of Mormon would be bullshit (and we all know the Book of Mormon isn't bullshit.......JEEEEZ)
Why????? ....because they said so. LOL!
gurumagoo 9 months ago
HAHAHA - I sure don't need any DNA "evidence" to refute the Book of Mormon! Everyone knows it's a cult, fer cryin' out loud!
surfinjuli 9 months ago
Put it another way. The ONLY challengers to the overwhelming evidence of non-Old World are LDS dogmatists. Not a single non-LDS scientist agrees with their position.
It's classic bait & switch - preach the BOM is true until someone points out the errors. This is also classic LDS apologia - ramble on about various aspects of biology, casually lie (peer review, BYU is a DNA center, opponents not trained) & invent.
It's the LACK of evidence that is so fatal to the BOM
smb12321 9 months ago
WOW! He forgot to mention that BYU excepted DNA as an accurate science before this discovery.
Then he proceeds to say "the BOM was meant to be used as religious history and not to be confirmed as religious science. But yet, scientists and archeologist have been trying to disprove the Bible for century's now, but only discovering more evidence/accuracy of the Bible.This man is blowing smoke in the eye's of Mormons to cover up the fact that the BOM Is false!!! Focus on the Grace of Christ only.
MrJazzeman 10 months ago
Quote
..:The Critics have not been formally trained in Molecular Evolution, Molecular Systematics, Population Genetic Theory, Evolutionary Theory"...
Unquote
An absolute and obvious lie.
The very first apologetic he presents is a provable lie.
The "Critics" he speaks of:
Scholars and Scientists from all disciplines, the best and most highly trained and respected men and women in Science in this country and Europe.
Compared to a few "Scholars" who attended BYU and work for FARMS.
Sickening.
hammerogod 10 months ago
@hammerogod The ease with which Saints lie is easily understood. ANYTHING that protects the church is permissible - denying history, ignoring science, inventing stories, avoiding wacky beliefs, obfuscating ("There's lots of evidence for the BOM - you just gotta know where to look") and worse, attempting to use science to support the BOM while bashing those who point out what science says about the BOM.
Nobody (except the LDS) thinks the DNA tests were invalid or incomplete. FAIR? LOL
smb12321 9 months ago
There is so much evidence that the Book of Mormon is a false testimony inspired by a man, a man who had 43 wife's. Why? Perhaps no self control?
1 Cor 7:32-33 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife and his interests are divided
So, If one wife can hinder our relationship with God, then what would 43 wife's do?
harvestsoulfly 10 months ago
does dna evidence refute the book of mormon? if dna evidence supported book of mormon claims then the church wouldnt have changed the book of mormon intro in 2007 from "the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians" to "the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians" =)
nickleus1977 10 months ago
When are all of you Morons going to realize Satan is taking your money and making you think you got a ticket to paradise?
SpincterManBubba 10 months ago
But if you want more, ooo there a shit load sorry, no cattle, sheep, wheat, barely, the wheel was not in the americas, no HORSES!!!! Sorry none at all, not one horse, so these epic battles with all these iron weapons and charrots, people dying by the thosands, yet we find not one horse, not one charriot wheel not one scrape of Iron at all, believe whatever you want but stop, stop trying to say anythign suports it sorry... Cheers
ASexyChef 11 months ago
Sorry guys DNA, did prove that the native americas are not Hebrew at all, but the BOM if you want to go with factual evidence that says sorry guys its bullshit, its easy, the BOM places Iron Tools and weapons in the Americas prior too europeans, yet the claims for epic battles not one even arrow head, why cause they used stone weapons, just that in itself proves the BOM is wrong just that...
ASexyChef 11 months ago
This is just Mormon apologists trying to bullshit you with their bullshit. The Book of Mormon is not true and no matter how hard they try it will never be. Don't believe the hype. Don't give any time to this.
ZackDuffy 11 months ago
The Book of Abraham papyri were thought lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. However, in 1966 several fragments of the papyri were found in the Museum of Art in New York, and in the LDS church archives. Upon examination by professional Egyptologists, the papyri were found to be common Egyptian funerary texts, dating to about the first century BC, and not Abraham as Joseph Smith claimed.
The Bible is true, but the book of Mormon is not. See:
4mormon.org
FastbackJon 1 year ago
Funny that there is now no scientific evidence of migration to America from Israel. I (a non-Mormon) came up with enough evidence (none from LDS sources) to convince my Jewish anthropogy prof. in 1974 that at least the some of Indians came from Israel. At that time some Mormons I knew told me some of the Indians had come from Asia as evidenceb by the Mongoliian mark at birth.
Also the lost tribes blended into the rest of the world - but obviously there is no genetic evidence - DILUTION.
jzwillows 1 year ago
You don't need DNA to tell that native americans are Asian you can see it in them they look mongaloid not middle eastern at all just look at the hairless faces thats not a middle eastern quailty.
wachnathan 1 year ago 2
The biggest problem for Christians and all other non mormons is this. You can't disprove something that doesn't exist. These BYU guys act like they are on to something because they are saying science can't prove something that never happened in the first place anyways. Thats like saying they are not right because science can't prove that santa claus doesn't exist.. Mormonism is not Christianity, and joseph smith had 30 wives, most of which were between the age of 14 and 20. Disprove that.
Lane1185 1 year ago
Does critical thinking refute the Book of Mormon?
Yes.
Ril74 1 year ago 2
The first post-World War II visit by an LDS leader was certainly the longest, as Elder Ezra Taft Benson spent nearly the entire year of 1946 traveling on a relief assignment throughout war-devastated Europe.
omiolo 1 year ago
The LDS Church's three-member First Presidency today includes two men with close ties to those areas — President Thomas S. Monson, whose nurturing to church membership and church efforts in the former German Democratic Republic began in 1968; and his second counselor in the First Presidency, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, a native of the former Czechoslovakia and post-war adolescent refugee whose life path took him to both sides of Germany.
omiolo 1 year ago
There is stylistic evidence for the Book of Mormon being concocted by Joseph Smith. The whole thing reads like a pastiche of an Old Testament chronicle, a rather dull one.
BesACB 1 year ago
@BesACB You mean writing in english out of date by two centuries means that you're not hearing God's voice and are actually just trying to sound like the King James Bible?
Ril74 1 year ago
You're suggesting only a handful of people did DNA research... claiming only your own BYU researchers are the only ones capable of doing it. Mormon communities do accept dna research to trace family roots yet they dispute it for this issue
bla7091 1 year ago
This is so hilariously ironic.
"...what the critics have done is look through scientific literature and pick out things which support their point of view while conveniently ignoring some complicated factors"
Ha. Ha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
thisfreakingname 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Mitochondrial DNA has proved a marvelous tool for tracing human history. Mothers pass it down to offspring almost intact—unlike nuclear DNA, the genetic material commonly used in criminal investigations ("Haven't Got a Clue? Maybe DNA Will Do," U.S. News & World Report, July 24, 2000).
The problem for Mormonism is that mitochondrial DNA supports the view that the principal ancestors of Native Americans were people from eastern Asia.
61MAF 1 year ago
Polynesians are also suppose to be Lamanites but their dna traces them back to South Asia. All of this presents a problem for the Mormon Church.
thebigcougar 1 year ago
@thebigcougar evidence??
solarflare311 1 year ago
So wait...Science tells us that American Indians are NOT from Jerusalem but in fact came from northern asia and you still argue the findings? I saw zero proof or sources in any claims made in this video besides hearsay and appeals to authority.
The speaker is obviously NOT a scientist and therefore not an authority figure with any weight to his arguments. And this is what being a hypocrite is all about. You know your beliefs are false but you keep defending/preaching because it pays the bills.
KalimaShaktide 1 year ago
I know Mormons that use the Jehova's Witness Bible and read Apocrypha. Is this normal for Mormons?
Also, DNA proves that Amerindians are Mongoloids.
3R3MITE 2 years ago
The speaker in the arguement will be so thorough as to what is fact and what is fiction concerning DNA of the american indian.
LDSapologist71 2 years ago
The speaker is a joke among his peers.
DNA evidence proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that all Amerindian populations that have been genetically tested are Mongoloid. It's suffice to say that the vast majority of Amerindian populations have had it's DNA taken and examined. Modern day Jewry and modern day Amerindians share no common Semitic nor Mongoloid DNA, and are therefore NOT related from a single ancestor less than 6000 years ago as the Bible claims.
Smith lied. Accept that truth.
3R3MITE 2 years ago 4
It is certain you object to the video, but readers that listen to you spout off lies can only draw one conclusion. That you didn't listen to what he said.
Congratz. Because the words of these men and their rigorous science methods are honest where the anti-mormons are lying thru their teeth. again congratz.
LDSapologist71 2 years ago
Unfortunately it's not worth watching mostly because you just can't see the screen and he doesn't say much. Skip the first one and jump straight into the second one.
Chaos4Free 2 years ago
Q Does DNA evidence refute the Book of Mormon?
A Yes
wgordon8 2 years ago
Don't bother listening to all of this. It's just Mormon apologists talking AROUND the subject in a cocky manner. Plus, they work for the Church, so what do you THINK they're going to try to prove?!!!
Roymorrison 2 years ago 19
I don't think this guy works for the church.
lindalds 2 years ago
@Roymorrison yeah i know it really debunks any arguemnts that you had tough! deal with it!
solarflare311 1 year ago
@Roymorrison uhhh, OF COURSE we're going to try and prove that our religion is true. That is not in ANY way wrong. Watch "DNA Evidences of the Book of Mormon Geography" by Rodney Meldrem (it's not on youtube sadly so you'll have to borrow it from someone, or buy it). There's no apologies there! ^_^
TheWinterWaterSong 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Roymorrison "Don't bother listening to all of this."
Actually, people SHOULD watch this; it provides clear insight into the LDS Sidestep.
L.D.S. = L.ie D.eceive S.idestep.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
All the alleged evidence supporting the BOM can be summed up in one word. "Plausibility". Unfortunately, plausibility still isn't proof. Mormons stretch plausibilty to it's limits and beyond. When the bom is finally able to prove it's claims at least as much as secular historical documents then maybe it will be allowed to lick the bible's boots. Until then I will consider it to be the greatest joke ever perpetrated on rational thinking mankind.
grady5647 2 years ago 2
Also don't be afraid to ask your leaders tough questions and call them on anything that appears to be BS. I did when I became a christian. I would not accept "maybe" arguments or "it's plausible that this is the way it happened"...etc. I probably gave several pastors headaches and maybe even made them question their faith. But now I have a stronger faith because of it. I pressed in for the truth agressively and would not let up. This is what your faith needs to stand up against or it's worthless
grady5647 2 years ago
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jimmybryght 2 years ago
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jimmybryght 2 years ago
The introduction to the 1981(LDS) The Book of Mormon states,"The Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
LDS MORMON PROPHET Joseph Smith stated the following:
"....The Lamanites, through transgression, became a loathsome, ignorant and filthy people, and were CURSED with a SKIN of DARKNESS yet, they have the promise, if they will believe, and work righteousness...they shall become a WHITE and DELIGHTSOME people..."
:The Latter-Day Saints Millennial Star, vol. 14, p. 418 "
Ilegalplayer 2 years ago
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jimmybryght 2 years ago
jimmy the only evidence LDS Mormons have is this
Joseph Smith would put the SEER STONE into a HAT,and put his face in the HAT,drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.A piece of something resembling parchment would appear,and on that appeared the writing.One character at a time would appear,and under it was the interpretation in English...Thus the Book of Mormon was translated...(LDS MORMON CHURCH MAGAZINE Ensign,Jul 1993,61)
Ilegalplayer 2 years ago
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jimmybryght 1 year ago
@jimmybryght by your comment it seems like you more well deserving of it you FOOL!
solarflare311 1 year ago
This is better than masturbating.
MidnightChimes 2 years ago
Yes. Yes it absolutely does.
akan65 2 years ago 2
Ohhhh....there was a hush because they didn't think the "evidence" was substantial enough to even respond to!!!
How UNBELIEVABLY pathetic. tsk, tsk, tsk. pathetic, pathetic, pathetic....
GetMeThere1 2 years ago
Thanks for using 1/8th of the screen.
animalcrosser5 2 years ago
The native americans have been DNA tested (ones who were 100% native American and not mixed) and there isn't even one drop of Jewish in them. They are mongoloid in origin. The book of mormon is just a bad joke
PsychoJack2u2 2 years ago
The introduction to the 1981(LDS) The Book of Mormon states,"The Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
"...WHITE...and DELIGHTSOME...the Lord God did cause a SKIN OF BLACKNESS to come upon them (2 Nephi 5:21)."
LDS PROPHET Spencer W. Kimball said: I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today...they are now becoming WHITE and DELIGHTSOME, as they were promised...General Conference Report, October, 1960. Improvement Era,December 1960, pp.922-923
Ilegalplayer 2 years ago
(laughs)
jimmybryght 2 years ago
(Laughs back) I assume you're an evangelical anti-Mormon? Forgive me if you are not. You take on their seedy, loathsome, tone. You appear to have been offended by the church as a whole or more likely, an individual in the church. I can't think of any other rational reason you would be so angry and eager to tell us Mormons to, "enjoy hell... For that Im sad because you have been misled. I'm so thankful for the restored church of Jesus Christ. I believe in Christ and love sharing it!
tamsanqa11 2 years ago
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jimmybryght 2 years ago
@jimmybryght your an effing dumbass if you think we worship satan and that we are a cult,really your so shut the hell up you retard!
solarflare311 1 year ago
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jimmybryght 1 year ago
LOL. He said nothing about the actual research yet. Whether American Indians trace their genetics back to Middle East is rather easily proved or disproved.
melonbarmonster 3 years ago
these videos are dumb. And have horrible quality. laaaame
hypergraphia7 3 years ago
All of the arguments in these videos boil down to "science is hard!"
They do not offer any evidence to support the hypothesis that there are any existing descendants of the Lamanites, which is fine, taken by itself, I can accept that the Book of Mormon could be true even if there are no living descendants of that population.
However, when I was a kid, I was taught in church that all of the native American populations were descendants of the Lamanites. Lame excuses for blatant lies.
dilvie 3 years ago 14
If you would go to our home page new discoveries have come to light regarding DNA & the Book of Mormon. I guess we were right. Anyway, DNA no matter for or against the BOM is still new and must be improved upon. Please check out the video on our home page. thanks.
MormonDefenders 3 years ago
"However, when I was a kid, I was taught in church that all of the native American populations were descendants of the Lamanites."
-It's possible also that it was never taught to you, but that you thought so, I thought so not because I was taught so, but because it elt obvious to me, now that I think it more critically, it feels impossible, but as a kid it was obvious because of different way of thinking about the matter. some LDS leaders have known this not to be the case since 1844
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Another weak apology. I don't have any physical evidence of the lessons, but I have clear memories of lessons as recently taught as 1999 (when I was certainly not a kid) where Polynesians in Laie Sunday school meetings talked about how they were descended from Lamanites.
They were very proud of that heritage. Their inclusion in the doctrine was a major factor in their faith. One friend left because he felt his trust had been violated when he learned more about DNA.
dilvie 3 years ago 3
passed down the paternal line. The detectable (cont)...variations are the result of mutations over time, and not recombination. Since there are a limited number of these variations in mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA strains, they are ideal for studying population genetics and the origins of people groups.
grady5647 3 years ago 2
"It is impossible to trace DNA through many generations. After a certain number of generations, the DNA of ancestors becomes diluted beyond recognition." This statement is untrue for mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA, which are precisely the types that have been used to determine the ancestry of Native Americans. These types of DNA are passed down intact from generation to generation, unblended, and undiluted. Mitochondrial DNA is passed down the maternal line, and Y-chromosome DNA is...(cont)
grady5647 3 years ago 2
"Haplogroup X demonstrates a genetic connection between Hebrews and Native Americans." This is a typical argument that employs a great deal of scientific jargon designed to give an appearance of reason, but actually backfires when all the facts are made known. In simplest terms, haplogroup X is actually found among populations in north and central Asia, which lends further evidence to support the connection between Native Americans and Asians.
grady5647 3 years ago 2
but if the haplotype x is found in middle east and europe too, then it doesn't exclude the possibility of the migration from the middle east, what about the egyptian mummies that had coca in them, where did this coca come from if not from americas?
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Genius if only some evidence of haplotype x is found in europe and the middle east. While numerous groups in Asia had it. All this proves is that some Asians migrated to europe and the middle east, or had some relations leading to some children with small strains of the DNA. Thus only a small population of Europe and middle east having this DNA, while a large portion of Asia has it.
What's the logical conclusion??? Bingo, they came from Asia.
hhubble 3 years ago 2
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jimmybryght 1 year ago
@jimmybryght ok you do that big fella! good luck with that lol,tell me if matt slick your god comes up with answer mr smooth operator
solarflare311 1 year ago
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jimmybryght 1 year ago
@jimmybryght yeah well keep my seat warm
solarflare311 1 year ago
(cont.)...the Asian incursions into the American continent, which many experts place at anywhere between 15,000 and 50,000 years ago. It should be noted that there is a significant degree of disagreement among experts about the reliability of genetics as a timing device. All that said, it was never the video's purpose or intent to contribute to any sort of debate over this. The video's main objective was to answer the question: What is the genetic origin of Native Americans?
grady5647 3 years ago 3
"The DNA video does not address that the same science used to refute the Book of Mormon also challenges the Bible." This change-of-venue tactic is hardly a valid defense of the Book of Mormon. Nevertheless, the science that disproves the Book of Mormon (population genetics) actually validates the biblical record; for example, the relatedness of Near East peoples is clearly established by population genetics studies. Sometimes this challenge focuses on the implications of the timing of...(cont.)
grady5647 3 years ago 2
...(cont.) ...unchanged from generation to generation.
grady5647 3 years ago 2
"DNA science isn't sufficiently advanced to make such conclusive statements." This argument is ridiculous, especially when you consider the irony that LDS researchers have happily been using genetics in their geneological studies for years. In many ways, population genetic studies (such as those done on Nat.Amer.) are more straightforward and reliable than the genealogical studies, because they examine the non-recombinant mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA, which remain intact and...(Cont.)
grady5647 3 years ago
...are a remnant of the house of Israel, then there would by necessity be at least some surviving Hebrew or Semitic DNA in a statistically significant population sample, yet none has been found.
grady5647 3 years ago 3
Please go to our home page and watch the main video. Did you know new evidence has come forth!Instead of blindly quoting critical text of the LDS church.--can we say 47%---please watch the video for more info.
MormonDefenders 3 years ago
Now they have found dna traces that european have and also jews and they found that dna from amerindians, you gotta keep updating the info.
So the dna has no problem for the book of mormon now that even jewsish dna has been found.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
"We don't know what Lehi's genes looked like, so how can we presume to identify his descendants?" The fact is, if Lehi did exist, then we would know what his genes looked like--the Book of Mormon clearly states that he was Israelite. The genetic testing on Native Americans would have revealed Near Eastern DNA, which would have included all Semitic peoples—Jews, Israelites, even Arabs. If the "principal ancestors of the Native Americans" were truly Lamanites, which according to the BOM,...
grady5647 3 years ago
Man weak opening arguments. The critics are only using information from EXPERTS. They didn't even come up with this research themselves. They only collected the data, Hmmm doesn't this make it seem like it's more objective. They've used the concrete information from the experts of this field, not their own, theres no chance of a bias then, right?
"The book of Mormon is religious history?? not actual history", did the presenter just admit this? The Smithsonian agrees, no archeological proof.
hhubble 3 years ago
You just don't get it. The test weren't run with intention of seeing if "Lamanites" were the ancestors of modern days indians, because they first of all, had no way of comparing markers, and secondly they wouldn't know it they saw it. The fact that the critics didn't do the tests themselves is only incident to their lack of commitment to seeking the truth of their position.
canadianbacon007 3 years ago
"You just don't get it. The test weren't run with intention of seeing if "Lamanites" were the ancestors of modern days indians"
Yeah you're right, they were run to seek answers, Truthful answers. Not to find some made up lost jewish tribe. They were simply trying to find out where the Native Americans originated from and migrated from. Through DNA proof and archeology they know where they came from and what happened. The battles with no shred of evidence. Not one objective observer can find.
hhubble 3 years ago 2
Yeah you're right, they were run to seek answers, Truthful answers. Not to find some made up lost jewish tribe.
Now they have discovered that the bering straight theory is irrrelevant because marine voiages were the rule to america.
Also they have found traces of european and jewish dna lately from amerindians. You gotta keep updating your sources for more info.
How can you find battle grounds when you aren't told where to go precisely??? dum comment and all your previous posting lost value.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
"How can you find battle grounds when you aren't told where to go precisely??? dum comment and all your previous posting lost value."
Exactly, no one can find any battlegrounds, when you're not told where they are. Hey do you think Joseph Smith got any hints from his jewish native american angels? Well don't worry I'm sure they'll find those battle grounds one day, and be completely vindicated. Hey I wonder how hard is it to find any shred of evidence from a battle where millions died.
hhubble 3 years ago 2
"Exactly, no one can find any battlegrounds, when you're not told where they are."
The book of mormon tells where they are, but we as modern people don't know where those places described in the book are, that knowledge is lost. The biblical locations are partly known only because of traditions and locations bare the same names today. If we had the same intel on the bom, it would be easy. None of the battle sights of the bible with the hundereds of thousands of dead have been found either
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
I KNOW that no one can find any of the ancient sights named in the Book of Mormon. These places did not exist. That's the problem. That's why the Smithsonian never declared the book of Mormon as a historical book. No one can agree to the locations of these so call real ancient civilizations. No weapons, no pottery, not one shred of evidence to show they were jewish tribes in NorthAmerica during the time described in the BOM. Most if not all the ancient sites in the bible have been found.
hhubble 3 years ago
Smithsonian don't think that the bible is fully historical, only partially. Pottery, weapons andmany things have been found from america. They weren't jewish, but from ephraim and manasseh.
I think it's funny that you declare bible as ancient book :D It's obvious even to a child, it's been among our civilization for about 1000 years as the bible, but it's manuscripts have been recorded to exist onger. It still doesn't prove that Jesus died for our sins, that's just silly to think it would prove.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Not fully historical, compared to not historical at all.
"It still doesn't prove that Jesus died for our sins"
Sounds like you're reaffirming what most other Christians believe. That Mormons aren't really Christians. Hence the BOM is the most correct book ever written. Sounds like you feel this way Jarkko, that you don't need to read the bible or worry about what Jesus did.
DNA never proved what Jesus did or didn't do. Too bad DNA has proven 99.4 percent certain of where NA's came from.
hhubble 3 years ago
All the scholars who are christian, also say that the bible doesn't prove that Jesus died for our sins, it's obvious. The book of mormon talks about Jesus and his works, but as a matter of fact, I read the bible more than the boo of mormon I'm right now making my own note version of the new testament. Dna has not proven any percentages yet, since the work still continues and is not set on stone and possibly never will be. Still Dna from europe and even traces to jewish has been foun now.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Good luck with your faith walk. There's nothing wrong with faith. As long as it's based on something with a solid and faithful foundation. I know MANY Christians are not Christ like, I know in all religions they have those that fall short. But as bad as Human Beings are with regard to religions. I think most religions are good and based on something that has some foundation in reality. Unfortunately I do not even see this with John Smith's story. Ex Polygamy, curse with black skin.
hhubble 3 years ago
Problem is that You got Smiths name wrong, how much other stuff then is also wrong if you don't even know his name? Read Josephs Diary if you want to learn from him. He never claimed that blacks are cursed, that was brigham youn who got that idea from the prevailing protestant thought of the day. And polygamy was practiced by abraham, Jacob, Moses, David and solomon, also some mighty kings afterwards, who were blessed by the lord, so you don't make sense right now.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
I'm the one that doesn't make much sense. Sure okay.
hhubble 3 years ago
Don't you find any of these things weird. Not being able to definitively declared where the ancient sites are??? Not one shred of evidence to show these people existed. No weapons, no pottery, NO BONES, I mean in the bible, if you want to find the ancient mountains, the oceans, the villages mentioned, you can find them, they've uncovered the old temples, there is evidence! that's why the Smithsonian Museum declared the bible a historical ancient book. The BOM has been disproven over time.
hhubble 3 years ago
How on earth could you definitely declare the sites, when the book has come to us instantly in a relatively new world where none of the ancient names can be interpreted correctly and where the places have been renamed wirth spanish names? Archeology has found evidence that book of mormon is plausible in many ways, but because our societies haven't inhabited this continent, no one has been able to trace the traditions and history as with the bible.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Sounds good to me. Problem was you just said in your previous post that
"None of the battle sights of the bible with the hundereds of thousands of dead have been found either"
Did you just make a mistake, or were you outright lying???
In the bible, they had prophets make predictions. Those predictions and prophecy's came true. If I'm not mistaken almost every single prophecy said by Smith did not come true. and the FOUNDATION of his word has no evidence. Where's the definative proof?
hhubble 3 years ago
Actually Smith had loads of prophecies come true, some are yet to be fulfilled, I have lists of those I can send it to you in a private message if you want
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
send them and share them. i have searched read and prayed and there is nothing to the such.
madsin69 3 years ago
Nostradamus made plenty of "prophecies" that his followers claim came true. If you word anything broad enough you can make anything a correct prediction.
impowow 3 years ago 3
did nostradamus have followers? I thought that his works were found at a later date, he was dead by the time his works were recovered as far as I remember. Why couldn't he have a giht for visions? I don't see anything wrong with that.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Just because it's old, doesn't mean it can't be substantiated. That's how history and science work together. We can see a somewhat clear picture of what happened. Thanks to the science and history and common sense we've been able to piece together basically the entire history of mankind and this planet.
Smith's story makes absolutely no sense. I mean the key central idea of Jewish tribes coming to North America at that time. Impossible (following the lineage of Christ) No real proof.
hhubble 3 years ago
Thanks to the science and history and common sense we've been able to piece together basically the entire history of mankind and this planet.
-You must be joking right. The fact that christ has his lineage has nothing to do with a ephraimite lineage separeting to america. Plus you haven't read much of the indian legends of their roots, they have some impressive parallels to the book of mormon, loads of indians were converted to te church because of them in fact.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
If you don't want to look at the science, and just assume it's not there then sure, keep believing the fables then.
By the way with this religious debate back and forth, are you trying to convince me? or yourself?
hhubble 3 years ago
I was about to say the same to you, I think it's you who is trying to convince yourself, thus denying the latest findings in science that support the book of mormon dna from middle east including.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Convince myself???? You mean I'm secretly thinking of joining the Mormon church but can't because of the science????!!!!! Or I secretly think Joseph Smith was right???????!!!!!!!!
It's all true Jarkk I secretly long to find something that made sense, that had strong foundations, that was based on truth. I will trust this new evidence, please link me to this new overwhelming evidence, that shows concrete 100 percent proof that Native Americans came from the Middle east.
hhubble 3 years ago
No, I meant that you are so affraid that what if mormonism is true after all so you haveto convince yourself constantly to keep cool.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
I'm trying to keep cool LOLOLOL. Right, I'm afraid a religion made up by a sexual predator with no education might be real LOL.
You claim there is new DNA evidence that proves without a shadow of doubt that Native Americans came from Isreal. I've looked for this new powerful evidence, I've yet to find it published by any recognized scientific journal. Could you point me to this new evidence.
Now if only you could find one single archeological evidence , or better yet one single landmark.
hhubble 3 years ago
A lot of archeological evidence and landmarks have been discovered to help "prove" the Bible yet Christianity isn't the fastest growing religion nor is it the largest religion on earth. Hmmmm maybe "proving" your religion isn't the most important thing. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored on earth today and that a living prophet is directing the Lord's work and I know that through the Spirit! I love learning about and following Jesus Christ :)
tamsanqa11 2 years ago
"the Bible yet Christianity isn't the fastest growing religion nor is it the largest religion on earth. Hmmmm maybe "proving" your religion isn't the most important thing."
What is this a popularity contest?? Why did you bring this up. I never mentioned anything about Christianity being the fastest or the largest. Just that historical places can at least be found from the bible, not so with the mormon book.
Who do you follow Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith?
hhubble 2 years ago 3
Um... Both!
lachoneus87 2 years ago
I don't know why I have to choose Jesus or Joseph Smith. It's like asking, do you follow Jesus Christ or Paul?
lindalds 2 years ago
Hey Jarkko, can you also explain to me why the book of Abraham has those made up stories of his family in ancient Egyptian scrolls. Or why the had of Osiris was replaced with the head of a human being and how Smith got the entire book from a simple burial scroll that's only some feet long. I mean I never realized ancient Egyptian characters had such complex long meanings.
hhubble 3 years ago
I have debated this book of abraham topic with many and they all fail on the same weak assumptions, but i'm not here to talk about this topic, it's dna discussed in here.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
LOL, let me guess they failed because you said so LOLOL. Powerful evidence there, No wait, I think I going to believe the documentary makers who actually discovered the evidence, the original scrolls used, and the language experts to refute everything made up by smith.
The most basic of common sense information being, why would an Egyptian burial scroll only a few feet long, contain this long drawn out history of a JEWISH family.
hhubble 3 years ago 2
hhubble, your ignorance is laughable. Egyptian burial scroll=a history of a Jewish family? I assume you're speaking of Lehi's family? That history was found on the plates not the egyptian scroll. I believe you're meaning the story of Abraham found on the burial scroll? Either way, do yourself a favor and do some honest reading outside of the anti-mormon filth you've apparently been reading, or should I say "watching?"
tamsanqa11 2 years ago
"your ignorance is laughable" Is this a direct quote from Jesus??? or was this Joseph Smith's reaction to people actually listening to him when he said Native American's came from Israel.
Yeah I mentioned the Egyptian scroll, because this was another major lie by Smith, why do you think I mentioned it? because I couldn't tell the difference between the book of abraham and the BOM. I brought it up to point out another huge lie created by Smith with another B.S translation.
hhubble 2 years ago
@hhubble really? haha keep digging your head further into the sand,you have pointed anything except exposing how "christ" like you are towards the mormons
solarflare311 1 year ago
When I was in the Mormon church, people openly spoke of blacks as being cursed. They still couldn't get into the Mormon priesthood. Pretty sick, eh?
Christianity teaches something different. Christ told us God's truth: All those who believe in and follow Him are His children, regardless of any human differences.
And the Bible tells us that the desire to be a god began with Satan, the Devil. It's the first big lie. Mormons believe they will become gods with their own planets.
kasdri 3 years ago
kasdri
actually the bible is one of the most racist book s there are if you actually read what you see in the text. Christians in america are racist even today, not all of them, but many are, baptist and methodists appealed to the bible in their claim that negro slavery is the will of God.
Mormons tok the blacks into their church even without the priesthood, but the other christians secregated blacks to form their own black churches. Learn the history before open ignorantly mouth.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
I know the history well , and if you know even today that the ADL is a significantly far more segregated church than other real christian churches. It is well documented that the mormon church from the founder and to the present day that the mormon church views blacks as the son of cain . What you need to do is lay down your ignorance and find the real truth , not your truth , or the version of the truth your leaders have told you , as the mormon church has changed doctrine to suit them.
kasdri 3 years ago
what is ADL?
in london the churches have over 70 % blacks in lds churches and even a black stake president.
Again, you gave nothing to answer the fact that the bible is racist according to todays standards, and who do you refer as real christians among the 20 000 different sects?
even today many american baptists view blacks as the sons of cain, it was very common tradition in a protestant thinkers and some lds also got caught on it, but haven't been in a long time thinking that is the case.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Stop adapting from my posts , know what you speak of . I have said in my original posts that ADL view blacks as the sons of cain , and that is fact , regardless of the memberships of blacks in the LDS church . Many blacks are members of the sothern baptists and evangelicals as a whole . The ever-changing doctrine of your religion amuses me , and the misguided followers saddens me.
kasdri 3 years ago
kasdri
There was never any official doctrine on the priesthood ban, Kimball and other prophets after him said that they don't now the real reason. Prophets before gave speculations and opinnions on the matter, but they were never canonized as a church doctrine, which makes the case that the sons of cain thing isn't a doctrine, but it was a doctrine in the baptist an other american christian churches in the 19'th century and was the source where young and others got caught on the idea.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
Joseph Smith and Mohamed were both deceived by
fallen angels ..As foretold by Paul in Galatians
1:8...
gerry37g 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Joseph Smith and Mohamed were both deceived by
fallen angels ..As foretold by Paul in Galatians
1:8..."
-Paul foretold nothing, he was only affirming his authority over angels, since there was some sort of angel worship occurring as philippians letter mentions. Paul was in fact caling peter the preacher of another gospel as it's evident from the 2 chapter. he wasn't foretelling specificaly about angel, he mentioned tha if anyone, us, or even an angel, so the angel was not the subject.
Jarkko1983 3 years ago
To quote Joseph Smith - "... all at once the room was illuminated above the brightness of the sun and an angel [Moroni] appeared before me, ... he said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham ...". In this unambiguous revelation received by JS in 1835, Moroni states the Indians to be of Hebrew descent. It renders redundant all the complex excuses dreamt up by the mopologists to explain the proven Asian origins of the native American peoples. If Moroni got that so wrong, what else ??
veracities 3 years ago
Guess what...new DNA evidence proves that 9 out of 18 alleles found in Native Americans are of Middle Eastern descent (47% to be exact). What do you have to say about that...let me guess I am wrong...well my friend I am not and now I guess critics of the LDS are going to have to find a new subject. Once again the Book of Mormon prevails.
cvlSoft 3 years ago
Interesting comment. Please provide a source for this "new" evidence. Curious that I have not come across this before.
veracities 3 years ago
cvlSoft, I saw the same vid. Typical fairldsorg dissimulation. They are mischievous. They don't lie directly, they deceive by omission and knowingly (which is worse). What they omitted in this case was that the date of separation of these alleles from the eurasian mainstream occurred 14,000yrs ago. This additional info' renders their case specious since this is much too early to have any relevance for the BOM story.
truthferrret 3 years ago 2
Interesting acording Bible Cronology God created Adam 6000 BC if "these alleles from the eurasian mainstream occurred 14,000yrs ago" Then the indians are older than Adam. Your theories are attacking both the BOM and the Bible. another point if eurasian people existed from 14000 ago until now then in 600 BC existed eurasian DNA in americas. Isn't that relevant enough?!!!
cesarcris 3 years ago
Correct on all counts cesarcris. Go to the top of the class.
truthferrret 3 years ago 2
this guy MUST be a mormon!
dmacsdg 3 years ago
Excellent videos. There is SO much evidence that is not commonly known. If critics would spend 1/10th of the time at least looking at the evidence, instead of having their noses buried in biased anti-Mormon rhetoric, many arguments would disappear overnight.
fairldsorg 4 years ago
This chap ought to listen to his wife!
truthferrret 4 years ago
The Archaeological Evidence & DNA Evidence proves the people & Cities in the Bible
were real. That Evidence backs up faith!
The Archaeological Evidence & DNA Evidence does not prove the people & the Cities in the Book of Mormon were real. The lack Evidence destroys faith
splitspeeds 4 years ago 2
You are wrong Splitspeeds. The Archeological and DNA evidence doesn't prove the bible. There's many places in the Bible that no one knows where they are!!! DNA evidence also is against the Bible, DNA evidence puts the men coming from apes evolution and millions years in the past. DNA evidence is against Adam & Eve story in Genesis.
cesarcris 4 years ago
Professor Thomas Murphy is often cited on this matter . By his own admission, Murphy's own research 'disproves' the biblical assertion that the peoples of the Earth are descended from Noah.
analoguetom 3 years ago
I've gotta say your belief in evolution requires alot more faith than mine in creationism. There's a reason we've got the saying,"the missing link", because it is in fact missing. Your people are just as bad as the those of opposing views, namely christians, jews, etc. Just blindly follow what other says is fact.
randont 3 years ago
i would say that a persons faith must be week if it needs to be suported by science.
snotface7 4 years ago 2