{Rachel Maddow} Kind Of Morbid -- Part I

[flobrew]

It's very telling that the rest of you from other countries listen to MSNBC and act as if they were legitimate news. I've worked in several other countries including UK and Australia. When I got sick abroad, saw the conditions of their hospitals, I demanded to go to the place that has actually contributed more to the health care of the world than any other. The United States! Good luck to the rest of you but we, the most prosperous and powerful nation on the planet, can handle our own affairs.

[FantasmaBAnco]

Antibiotics and the HPV vaccine were discovered by Australians. Ultrasound was invented by an Australian, Australians were pivotal to cochlear implant R&D, and "spray-on skin" was also invented by an Australian.

Medical research is going on all over the world... hate to break it to you, flo but the US is just another piece of the puzzle. Of course, you're probably so blinded by your poisonous nationalism, that you can't see that.

Have fun paying through the nose for basic medical care!

[flobrew]

I'm sorry. I wasn't making my point clear. My point was that it's our business. It's not your country's or anyone else's place to tell us how to run our affairs. I don't think it's "poisonous nationalism" to take pride in your own country's achievements as you seem to do.

[FantasmaBAnco]

I'm not "taking pride in [my] own country's achievements"... these people just happened to be from Australia; that's got nothing to do with me. I'm just pointing out some salient facts.

You, on the other hand, ARE full of poisonous nationalism, as evidenced by this remark: "I demanded ...actually contributed more to the health care of the world than any other. The United States!"

Apart from being factually incorrect, it smacks of that American arrogance that sickens the rest of us.

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "It's not your country's or anyone else's place to tell us how to run our affairs."

Americans need to know that the rest of the world has public health care, and is coping quite nicely thank you. No death panels, no unnecessary surgery for profit (ie circumcision), no drug advertising direct to the public... sure we have our problems, but they aren't exacerbated by the fact that medicine is expected to turn a profit, like it is in the United States.

[flobrew]

Good. Be sick. Jealousy can do that to you. The death panel thing is debatable but brings up a point that the government would have a say in our affairs. Our nation is actually a federation of individual sovereign states, and most of us are loathe to see a centralized government interfere in our business. We were founded on these principles, and we fought wars over them. It is woven into our fabric.Men have died to uphold those beliefs, and they should be fiercely defended by every American.

[FantasmaBAnco]

You do understand the meaning of the word "option", don't you?

In Australia we have a public health system, paid for in taxes, but we also have a thriving private health system. Many people opt for private health care in Oz, as they have more choice, and less waiting time for elective surgery.

More of that nationalism rearing its ugly head, I see. You do realise that your nationality is an accident of birth, right? Not really anything to be "proud" of. It's not like you've achieved anything.

[flobrew]

Again, great for you! Do you even know who these people are that are trying to implement this in America? One was on video saying that they have to pump up the animosity that the poor and minorities have for the U.S. in order to "take down the United States of America" in the name of socialism. One was speaking the other day on a college campus about the need for a "global government." Is that what you want? One of these jerks from our country telling you how to live?

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "Do you even know who these people are that are trying to implement this in America?"

"These people" aren't the homogenous group you claim them to be. There are bound to be extremists in any political movement, and one random socialist does not define the aims of an entire movement. Should the American electorate be denied basic health coverage, because a few loud-mouthed lefties also happen to think it's a good idea?

[flobrew]

OK first of all. These people are the hand-picked administration of our federal government chosen by our president, so one random socialist isn't what we're talking about here. It is this admin's POLICY. If these people don't have power I don't know who does. And, for your information, NOONE in America is denied HC! ...Surprise! We have a State run Medicare and Medicaid. This plan basically obliterates those plans. So who is hearing lies? I don't have insurance, but I've never been denied help.

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "We have a State run Medicare and Medicaid. This plan basically obliterates those plans... I don't have insurance, but I've never been denied help."

... and your out of pocket expenses for Medicare are HUGE compared to our system. To receive Medicaid, you have to be "Categorically needy", "Medically Needy" or be a member of a "Special Group"... which is all determined by state-defined criteria. As a result, many people fall through the gaps.

[flobrew]

That's not true. No one is denied treatment. Ever. Out of pocket expenses aren'tt huge.The taxpayers are paying for it, sure. But this new plan raises rates for the individually insured I believe, 11-13%. It raises taxes enormously. The "benefits" of this bill don't go into effect until 2013? We pay now in higher taxes, and someday down the line, some will get free HC...until the taxes can't pay for it...like our Social security that I pay into and won't see a penny of.

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "That's not true. No one is denied treatment. Ever."

You sure about that? Google the phrase "denied medical care or treatment in the US" and see what comes up.

While you're at it, Google "medical bankruptcy in the US": I particularly recommend the study by Himmelstein, Thorne, Warren and Woolhandler.

I've looked at US Medicare's own table of out of pocket expenses, and compared them to Australia's Medicare costs. US Medicare's expenses are huge by comparison.

[flobrew]

Again...I have no insurance....I have never been denied treatment in my state. So yeah I can say that with confidence from personal experience. And what do you pay in taxes??

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "never been denied treatment in my state... personal experience"

Lucky you! But think of all the people who file for bankruptcy every year in the States, due to ballooning medical costs. Arguing that your personal experience reflects the norm and not the exception isn't particularly honest, when I don't know where you live, what coverage you have, and what your employer's contribution is.

re: "And what do you pay in taxes??"

Why don't you do some of your own research, like I did?

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "This plan basically obliterates those plans"

Nice lexical choice there! It is hoped that once the Republicans and Blue Dogs have finished tearing the bill apart, that it will in fact extend coverage to all citizens, regardless of which state they live in or what their medical needs are.

Once again, as someone with a chronic illness, you will have a lot to gain from the new system (provided the Economic Rationalists don't "obliterate" the best aspects of the bill).

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "These people are the hand-picked administration... so one random socialist isn't what we're talking about here"

You weren't specific enough in your initial comment; I didn't know if you were talking about a member of the current administration, or a random leftie at a town hall meeting. Try to be more specific in your discourse, rather than speak in generalities.

Please supply the names of "these people" or a video/ link so that the evidence is more than just anecdotal, thanks.

[flobrew]

These are the things we hate. Your plan might work for you, but this one is a different story. Even if it wasn't, the governed don't want it and are tired of the Feds doing whatever they want against our will.The HC prop. will cost us a lot of money and plunge us into bankruptcy. And, I'm not being an arrogant American here, but seriously, if we fail here economically, just look north. China's right there waiting for the right time to expand into the Pacific, and we won't be able to help you.

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "Your plan might work for you, but this one is a different story"

How do you know that? The final details haven't been agreed to, and it's months away from implementation. Most Western countries in the world have a two-tiered healthcare system, and thrive. I'm sure America will too.

re: "China's right there waiting for the right time to expand into the Pacific, and we won't be able to help you. "

Oh noes! Everybody's superhero won't be there to save the day! What will we do? lol

[flobrew]

And as far as that superhero crack goes...I'm not saying you are inferior to us, but if it ever came to it, you would need allies. The U.S. is your country's ally. We have always helped each other in times of trouble and I think have been honorable in doing so. The fact is the U.S. is an advanced military power with a lot of global weight. There's no opinion in there. It's just a fact. Our allies need us as much as we need them. Just saying if we can we will and if we can't.. then it gets scary.

[FantasmaBAnco]

It's a bit late to be concerned about international relations and letting down the allies, isn't it? The Neo-Cons didn't seem to care too much about that when they convinced both Britain and Australia to go to war, based on bullshit intel.

If America were really so concerned about China and its allies, it would withdraw troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, and stop supporting the murderous Israeli regime. Instead, we've got 4 star generals talking up a war in Iran.

Brilliant idea!

[flobrew]

Is it? We "convinced" you did we? So the U.K. were strong armed into it were they? Even though some of the "bullshit intel" came from MI6? There weren't any subsequent attacks of the same magnitude were there? A withdrawal at this stage of the game would be irresponsible and anyone who knows anything about history would know it. And easy for you to judge Israel and Iran. They haven't verbally and openly threatened you, have they?

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "anyone who knows anything about history would know it."

Don't you know who I am, or what I do for a living? lol

re: "easy for you to judge Israel and Iran. They haven't verbally and openly threatened you, have they?"

No, but last time I checked, my government wasn't propping up an illegally founded state, whose existence threatens to tear apart a whole region. Do you have any idea how much money your government pays every year in aid to Israel?

[flobrew]

Tear apart a whole region??? Democracy does that???? Oh well, let's put the rape rooms back into play...Oh and the mustard gassing of the Kurds. That'll get 'em all back in line. And they haven't threatened you because, arrogant or not, we're standing at your front door with a big stick waiting to defend you and they know it. America is the threat. And Israel? So, we should abandon them to their fate in an unfriendly region?

[FantasmaBAnco]

@flobrew re: "an illegally founded state": I was talking about Israel. That was obvious from my comment. Try to calm down, and engage in a rational discourse, please. Or don't bother.

[flobrew]

and no what do you do for a living? are you a history professor? because that is my training and former vocation.

[FantasmaBAnco]

@flobrew No, I'm an English and History teacher. Every time I put a unit plan together, I have to engage in months of research. So yes, I am well versed in the study of History, and no, I don't believe that an American withdrawal from the region would bring about the end of the world. Far from it.

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "There weren't any subsequent attacks of the same magnitude were there?"

Not of the same magnitude, but it didn't stop the attacks: two bombings in Bali, the London bombings and Mumbai weren't stopped.

[flobrew]

Not in the U.S.

[FantasmaBAnco]

@flobrew ... and that's all that matters? You do realise that the attacks in Britain and Bali were aimed at getting back at America's allies, don't you? Or doesn't it matter if it doesn't happen to Americans?

[FantasmaBAnco]

Yes, for the most part, the UK was strong-armed into it. MI6 is as bad as the CIA and ASIO when it comes to intel, so I'm not surprised that some of the bullshit was generated by them.

You pbviously have no idea about the kind of pressure that can be brought to bear on America's allies, do you? NATO and ANZUS hold a lot of sway... it's naive to suggest otherwise.

[flobrew]

I don't suggest that they weren't urged, but many countries opted out and we all got together and voted NOT to bomb their capitols and enslave their women. To suggest that we are "imperial death troopers that hold sway over all we see" is ludicrous. Many people disagreed with our policy and so be it.

[FantasmaBAnco]

@flobrew re:"...we are "imperial death troopers that hold sway over all we see" is ludicrous".

When did I say anything of the sort? Nice attempt at the strawman, but no dice.

[flobrew]

Circumcision is shown in studies to decrease the spread of STD's. We don't want tax dollars paying for abortions. Since when is a patient being knowledgeable on drugs and having a say in their own treatment a bad thing? And if I were to post on an Australian blog that you all are mindless lemmings, letting your government control your lives, I'll bet you'd have something to say about that.

[FantasmaBAnco]

I live in Australia. My grandma is 86 and 2 years ago, she had cancer removed from her bowel. She spent a fortnight in hospital, and then get respite care in her own home. The government paid for the entire thing.

Don't believe the bullshit, Americans. The rest of the developed world has it; it's about time for you. Get informed, educate others, agitate, and contact your political representative.

[flobrew]

Yeah. Thanks for that from Australia! I respectfully submit, we aren't the rest of the world. We are better. We are America! We are a sovereign nation. We got there through hard fought wars and diligent maintenance. Where would the world be without us? We have always gone our own route and gotten along quite well without input from other nations. So thanks for your opinion, I'm glad your Grandma is OK, but we can handle our own affairs. Thanks for the input but no thanks.

[FantasmaBAnco]

Wow... you are a condescending arse.

Have you actually looked at how the US health system compares to the rest of the world? Do you have any idea how many US citizens become bankrupt every year because they haven't got sufficient funds to pay for the care they need... despite many of them having full health insurance coverage?

If this is such a non-issue for you, then why are you talking the time to make patronising replies to comments that are 7 months old?

[flobrew]

I've looked at our economy in comparison to the rest of the world. I just saw the post for the first time, and really don't appreciate people that have nothing to do with the issue chiming in and telling us "patronising" Americans what to do with ourselves. It would be the same if you came on here exposing the HC scam for what it is, the seeds of Socialism. I'd agree, but I still wouldn't appreciate it. And for your information, it is not a "non-issue" for me. I have a serious health problem.

[FantasmaBAnco]

re: "I've looked at our economy in comparison to the rest of the world."

That's not what I suggested you look at. Read my comment again... and fyi, the US economy is in the toilet. Fighting wars on two fronts, the GFC (thanks, America!) and eight years of President Bush have bled your country dry. China pretty much owns the US.

re: "it is not a "non-issue" for me. I have a serious health problem. "

So you are one of the people who would have the most to gain from public health care.

[gregstaddon]

Please - I need to know - are Americans really this stupid?

[labellementeusenz]

I don't know, apparently? As for the whole "health care for old people isn't cost-effective" thing - well, when you don't run your healthcare system like a BUSINESS, this actually becomes LESS of an issue.

I don't know what they think happens to old people in the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, France & so on & so on in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD.

[gregstaddon]

"I don't know what they think happens to old people in the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, France & so on & so on in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD."

Yes - exactly. They are morons.

Indeed, the countries you mention have more old people / pensioners living longer and more comfortably, to the extent that we (Europeans) are having to face a future where over a third of the population is elderly.

It seems to me that the American right-wing exists to destroy their own country.

[log140]

GOP is the best expert in smear-campaigns on the planet!!

[kelseywall]

...just...wow.

[baronmorris]

there should really be and IQ test for Congress. Popularity (majority vote) alone is just not cutting it lately.

Great commentary by Rachel, as always!

Thx for the great post, Meggion! as always! ;-)

[3star2nr]

agreed where are these lunatics coming from

[baronmorris]

1) if you're mother is a US citizen, then the law says so are you 2) if you are a citizen of the US, & did not achieve this status thru the NATURALIZATION process, then CONGRATULATIONS! YOU are a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN OF THE US! (just like President Obama, who was born in Hawaii) Viva Obama! Universal Health Care NOW! -------- LISTEN UP, PEOPLE! -------- Without health care, no LIFE. Without health care, no LIBERTY. Without health care, no HAPPINESS. REAL PATRIOTS support Universal Health Care!