re: "should justify this world filled with suffering."
We justify small pains (drilling a tooth) with small gains (a healthy, pain-free tooth).
We justify big pains (soldier jumps on a grenade) with big gains (saves his 5 buddies).
As long as it is POSSIBLE that God is moving toward a GAIN that justifies all the PAIN that has ever existed, then He is not necessarily illogical or evil.
Are you sure an all-powerful, all-knowing God CANNOT have a huge gain in mind? How can you be sure?
So we have "freedom" to be evil and refuse God, and if we choose that, we'll be tortured forever in hell - WOW, what a "freedom". And this "choice" (which is not a free choice in any sense) should justify this world filled with suffering, injustice, evil, hunger, disease, war and so on? This is not a free will like you're saying, this is an excuse (and really bad one) by God to torture us all - some in this life, the rest even after they die. Conclusion: "Christian God is illogical and evil".
@davidwerl "This is not a free will like you're saying, this is an excuse (and really bad one) by God to torture us all - some in this life, the rest even after they die." No, it is free will, and you know it. Why do you argue against God. Satan brought sin and death into the world for the very purpose of tearing you away from God, because he knew this would hurt God. Satan doesn't want you. He doesn't care about you at all. He cares only about his hatred of God. You are merely...
@davidwerl ...a means to an end. But God does care for you. He made a way for you to escape from Satan's grasp. Satan brought sin and death into the world because he knew that sin would cause death, and he wants you to die. God brought life into the world and He wants you to partake in that life eternally, just the way it was intended from the beginning. Satan (sin) sows to death. Christ (Holiness) sows to life. Your free will determines what you sow for yourself. We reap what we sow.
@4GodSoLoves "We reap what we sow." - Wow. Christians think life begins when sperm enters egg. What if that fertilized egg right after is fertilized (which happens a lot (God made abortion)). Can you then explain me how that egg did earn what it sow for going to hell (because it didn't accept Christ - if you think it goes to heaven then the same question)??? Either God sends innocent into hell, or he send to heaven someone who never lived - so why we have to live and suffer? Where's justice???
@davidwerl "BTW: QUESTION: Who created Satan knowing what he'll become and he'll do to us? ANSWER: Our "loving" God" Adding quotation marks around the wold loving is quite tell. So what I'm getting from you is: You really do believe in the one true God, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. You really do believe that God created the world and mankind, you just hate Him for some reason. If this...
@davidwerl ...is true, then you're living in "open" rebellion and I can't help you with that without knowing what the specifics are in your case - other than to tell you to get over it and for your own good just stop it. But to answer your objection anyway: God created Lucifer but angels also have free will and Satan, like you and me decided to chose to sin. It seems that you're just looking for excuses and that you're just throwing things against the wall hoping something will stick.
@4GodSoLoves Would you create someone if you knew that it will turn against you, make innocent suffer and in the end you would make that creature suffer for ever? Isn't that cruel and stupid? If he hadn't created Satan we would be alright and he would spare Satan from being tortured for ever. Creating him was dumb and cruel. Is this really a god you want to believe in?
@davidwerl "If he hadn't created Satan we would be alright..." No, I don't think so. Remember, Satan persuaded 1/3 of the angles to join him in his rebellion against God. If not Lucifer, it would have been another. You also said: "Creating him was dumb and cruel." Well then, according to you, God made another mistake; before He created anything, he should have created you, because you claim to know better than God about how He should have done things.
@4GodSoLoves Actually yes, because I, contrary to laughably illogical and stupid God of the Bible, can at least use reason and logic to some extent, and I would also not allow innocent to suffer... So yes, Biblical God is cruel, stupid, illogical and contradicting.
@davidwerl I really don't get where you're going with this, but we understand as Christians that sin can have it's effect on a soul only when that soul is aware of right and wrong - i.e., one makes the choice to do wrong while understanding what right and wrong is. So, before the age of accountability, a child is still considered innocent, and only innocence can enter Heaven. What happens in the case of the egg you mentioned? I don't know, but there can be no hell in its destiny.
@4GodSoLoves Well then let me ask you if that "egg" goes to heaven, why did God send us (living) on Earth to suffer and to have a "choice" (to be tortured for ever) when for some (the egg) it's clear, that they can go to heaven right away without any life long suffering or stupid "choices"? Is this idea of "righteous" God that takes one into heaven just like that and the other will suffer extremely whole life and then be thrown into hell just because he's, let's say, sexually living homosexual?
@davidwerl Okay, I've answered all of this in previous posts on this thread. As for the egg: Are you jealous of the egg that never cam into this world? That he or she did not know life and it's ups and downs and therefore you're unfortunate to have known life? You ask if this is righteous. It is neither righteous or unrighteous. Things like this happen in this fallen world because sin has corrupted God's perfect creation. The bodies of our parents are perfect like Adam and Eve was.
@4GodSoLoves So that's what you're telling to children in Africa dying of hunger and AIDS while in extreme poverty? That they should be glad to suffer??! The example with egg proves that we don't need to live a life to go to heaven, and lot of people from less happy parts than US are actually born, then suffer and then die miserably... and some of them then go to hell, while someone who didn't suffer anything (the egg) goes to heaven right away. Call this anything less than unfair is hypocrisy.
@davidwerl And why do you come here and complain about the suffering around the world as if God hasn't done anything about it? He has sent you, me, us, the more fortunate. Sin is the cause of all of this. Why rave against God - repent - and go help them yourself. We are able.
So why is there still suffering in a question God asks of you and me. We are told to feed the hungry, help the poor, heal the sick, comfort the down-heartened. So God asks us why we aren't doing this.
@4GodSoLoves I complain because God did NOT do anything about it. And he certainly didn't tell me anything - ever. I'm trying to feed hungry (but because of any god or gods) but it'll never be enough. If God would exist he would be morally obliged to help those people but he does not. Maybe because he does not exist and because Christianity is just a meme.
@davidwerl "And he certainly didn't tell me anything - ever." Yes He did. He did in at least two ways: He did it by way of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels and he did it by writing it upon your heart. If you are doing your part to feed them, then you should know that it CAN be done - if only more would help - if only ALL would obey God's Word and help. Every single church I know does something to help the needy.
@4GodSoLoves I don't know any god except Flying Spaghetti Monster, so it is FSM who is telling me to help people. And if you give money to church it's like 95% of that money wasted on salary, buildings, spreading the meme and so on. Only like 5% go to real help to people so churches are useless.
@davidwerl And thereby, you rave against the help that God has sent. But don't get me wrong, I do accept your premise that the organized Churches could do more and should, and I too think that much of the way some of them (larger ones especially) handle finances and such are concerned, needs improvement (may God judge fairly) but no, this is not most I don't think. But I (one who does not attend any church) am talking about God's word, particularly the Gospel of Christ, what He said.
@davidwerl Okay then. May you enjoy whatever amount of time you have left in this life, and may you find some peace while you are here on Earth. God bless.
@davidwerl - Thanks for your thoughtful comment. You and I arrive at different conclusions...but I appreciate the fact that you THINK about this stuff.
You (and many others) would PREFER not to be in the predicament of having to make a choice between submitting to God forever, on one hand, and burning in hell forever, on the other. If you didn't have to make this choice, you'd be happier.
And if Christianity is not true - this choice vanishes - it's irrelevant.
@Zangomatic God basically gave us choice so he can punish us for not obeying him. If we wouldn't have this "choice" we would be in heaven, no one would have to suffer in this world or the world after (hell) and everybody would be happy including God which would not have to send lot of people to hell.
Create someone only to tempt them and if they fail then torture them forever??? Only some sick sadistic evil psycho god would do that.
re: "God gave us choice so he can punish us" - How do you know this is God's motive?
re: "If we didn't have choice we would be in heaven..." - True. Good point. God didn't HAVE to make us free moral agents. He COULD have made us more like cabbages.
You seem to believe that it's EVIL for God to give FREEDOM to his creatures? Why do you believe this?
Does your disdain for God lead you to conclude He doesn't exist? (Sounds kinda funny: "I don't like you so you don't exist.")
I really don't think that if you hadn't "choice" to suffer eternally for wrong move that it would make you a "cabbage". On the contrary, you wouldn't have to care if your deeds piss off some daddy in skies, so you would actually feel more free than this way.
And I don't believe in god because his actions and behaviour is illogical, therefore he's either dumb and retarded which cannot be because he should be all knowing and so on, or else he don't exist.
@Zangomatic I don't believe in absolute morality, like that lie is just bad no matter the circumstances. But I do have a morality and yes I do believe some actions are morally wrong. Basics of my morality stands not on Bible, but on the golden rule - do to others the same as you would wish they done to you.
@Zangomatic Have you ever thought about how lucky you are to have been born in a Christian country? If you were born in a Muslim or Hindu country, chances are that you would be a convinced Muslim or a Hindu, condemned to be tortured for eternity.
@claudbase - Good point. I do sometimes wonder why I was born where and when I was. But I don't think luck has anything to do with it. "[God] marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." (Acts 17:26)
Convinced Muslims, Hindus, and atheists, can become convinced followers of Jesus Christ, if they so choose.
I am always baffled when Christians talk about how good and loving God is. He created all humans the way they are, knowing that 70% or more were condemned to live a short live, then be tortured for ever and ever. All this for simply not believing in him, while making sure he does not to become too obvious. The idea that he does this to give people "free will" for a minuscule number of years before sending the large majority to suffer for the rest of eternity is just so incredibly stupid.
@claudbase "I am always baffled when Christians talk about how good and loving God is." There are so many things wrong with this entire post. First, there is something wrong with your thinking - God did not create you. Your parents did by their own free will choice to have a child. God only created two people - Adam and Eve. So God didn't, knowing some would not come to Christ, create them anyway.
Another error in your post is when you said this: "All this for simply not...
@4GodSoLoves Didn't God new before he created everything including me that I was going to drought your particular story and, because of the rules he made, would end up suffering forever in hell?
@claudbase "Didn't God new before he created everything including me that I was going to drought your particular story and, because of the rules he made, would end up suffering forever in hell?" Again, He didn't make you and the witness built into your soul that God exists is passed down to everyone from the breath of life breathed into your original ancestor Adam. And the 70% you say must also be blind - yes, they truly are - but they are because they want to be - like you. It...
@claudbase ...is within all of us to believe, because the knowledge of God is built in to our soul. This knowledge can be denied and even suppressed by a consistent desire to do so. The conscience of a person is his witness, and that witness can be seared. God calls sin, sin. A man may not like that because he loves is, so instead of seeking God, he turns away, even denies, so before long his denial seems to be the right way, the correct way. That person may even look for reasons...
@claudbase ...to justify his denial in such things as science and in other non-believers, when in truth there are truly no non-believers but deniers. Some will even talk about "believers" in the third party and use them as a reason to not believe instead of looking at the God within for reasons to believe. This deception manifests ultimately in blaming God for their own demise and placing on Him the deeds of the adversary, the devil. There's no excuse. God is evident in all He's made.
@claudbase ...believing in him." God doesn't "punish" you for not believing in Him. "God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that through Him the world might be saved." - John 3: 17 So Jesus didn't come to condemn you (punish you) but to save you from the condemnation you are already under, as in John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one...
@claudbase ...and only Son." You see, You belong to the god of this world, Satan. Your sin has made you his. He brought sin and death into the world - sin and death is the same thing, or part of the same thing, because sin brings death -the wages of sin is death- death is what sin produces. God provided a way out, a way to be free of sin and death. Practice sin, and you sow death; so you reap what you sow. Jesus...
@4GodSoLoves I live my life by the "Do not do to others what you wouldn’t want others to do to you" principle. In my opinion, this is way better then some Christians that have done really evil thing all their life and that, simply because they believe in your particular story before they died, will go to heaven while extremely good people like Gandhi are going to suffer for eternity just because they did not believe in the same story.
@claudbase ...paid the price, the wages of sin. Why fight that? He doesn't want to harm you, but to save you. "
Also you said: "...while making sure he does not to become too obvious." He is seen in all the things He's made including your own being. He has given you His Word by way of scripture and He has even sent His only begotten Son into the world as well as His own Spirit if you will only see these things when they are presented to you instead of rejecting them all. God is...
@4GodSoLoves when I see all things, I see nature; a snowflake is not the proof of a snowflake maker. Notice how you now say that he made everything while in the next post you say that my parents made me, not him. You do realize that there are many other holy scriptures beside the bible with totally different stories. What you are basically saying is that I should see things the way you do but have no rational reason for your own belief.
@4GodSoLoves If I am blind then so are more then 70% of all human being that do not believe in your particular story. If when they die, unbeliever were to find that they are condemned for eternal torture (simply for not believing in the right story), do you seriously believe that they would still be happy for these few year of free will, now that they are condemned to excruciating torture for ever and ever (infinity is a long time you know).
I'm baffled when agnostics/atheists talk about how bad God is (God who doesn't exist). There's too much GOOD in this world for God to be a really nasty God. If He is hideously evil, how do we explain all the people who defy him by living decent lives, enjoying love, beauty, health, peace, and relative comfort?
I'm baffled by atheist's apparent moral indignation (saying God is "bad"?) - as if they had any basis for objective moral evaluation...
@Zangomatic Atheists do not believe that the God of the bible exist. They simply try to open Christians eyes to how some of their story sounds to unbelievers. It is baffling how Christians totally lose their capacity to see what is so obvious to anybody that has not surrender to the Christian myth. What is also obvious is that theism makes people lose their rational judgment when it comes to their beliefs.
Thanks for your comment. I agree that Christians sometimes forget how ridiculous our view of reality sounds to those who adhere to a different view. This lack of connection (empathy?) to non-Christians can make the discussion unproductive.
You're probably aware, however, that this works both ways. To the Christian, the atheist myth sounds not merely irrational - but utterly unlivable.
@Zangomatic what do you find so utterly unbelievable; atheism is simply the rejection of the notion of God as presented by the theists. Most atheists will also tell you that, given sufficient proof, they would be ready to change their mind without any hesitation (can you honestly say the same?). You will have to excuse me but I have some difficulty in seeing a myth in this way of thinking.
Would I be "ready to change my mind, given sufficient proof"? I don't need proof of atheism - mere plausibility would do the trick.
The Atheist Myth: We are randomly assembled molecular accidents existing by chance in a universe that caused itself, fine-tuned itself with miraculous jaw-dropping precision, spontaneously generated biological information - living creatures - with self-aware minds who think life has objective meaning, value, and purpose and live as though objective morality exists.
@Zangomatic This description has nothing to do with atheism. Again atheism is simply the rejection of what theists define as God. You are simply making a straw men (or maybe an argument from ignorance?) of what you view is the scientist explanation for the universe and evolution. It is a totally false representation of the actual scientific theories. It’s also a false dichotomy (the actual origin of the universe might be completely different from everything that has been proposed so far).
re: "This description has nothing to do with atheism" My sources for the Atheist Myth are statements from atheists on this site (see 1,800 comments below) and the writings of Hawking, Hitchens, Denton, Harris, Dawkins, Sagan, etc.
For example, Hawking writes, "The Universe can and will create itself from nothing" (from The Grand Design).
@claudbase "Most atheists will also tell you that, given sufficient proof, they would be ready to change their mind without any hesitation..." Proof or evidence? What kind of proof are you looking for? What would you consider to be "sufficient" evidence or proof?
@4GodSoLoves any proof that would equally be accepted by any intelligent human being, independently of their educations or beliefs. Example: if I see a wall, nobody would say that the wall isn’t really there. If they did I could ask them to run into the "non wall" and I would have proven my point.
@claudbase Okay, that really doesn't answer my question. I don't suppose you would want Him to create an actual invisible wall for you to walk into. I'm asking for something real. I mean specifically what would that thing that would convince you? I'm sincere with this question because I hear your statement said quite often, but I never hear any specifics given. So, I would really like to know exactly what particular evidence it would take to convince you.
@4GodSoLoves God could snap his finger and remove the doubt from all humans about who he is. Notice that this would fit the criteria I proposed earlier. But then we are stuck with a dilemma: according to your beliefs, God think that this would somehow deprive us of our free will, so he will never do it (although I never understood this idea since you would still be free to love him or not; knowing who your parents are doesn't force you to love or respect them). (cont)
@claudbase (cont) So no matter what I could define as a sufficient proof, you will always say that he doesn't want to do that, since it would (somehow) remove my free will.
@claudbase Well yes, but that then also doesn't answer the question. I don't want to "be able to refute your answer". I just want to understand why, you said, "...given sufficient proof, they would be ready to change their mind without any hesitation...". What does "given sufficient proof" mean "specifically"? I mean, the word "sufficient" is ambiguous. Please define "sufficient" in this context of "proof" by giving me a specific event. I assume you mean without faith being required.
@claudbase You see, the reason I am asking this question is because I believe it requires faith to believe in God; not because He says so, but because it's just the natural way of things.
I'm not trying to set a trap for you, but rather to get to one of two points:
1 - Either you don't understand that no matter what evidence you say you require, it would still take a measure of faith to believe the evidence, or:
2 - You know something I don't know and I would like to. So I ask.
@claudbase Also, don't think I haven't noticed the seemingly appropriate answer of God just snapping His fingers and removing all doubt. I don't see this as a legitimate answer because I have already addressed this in another post. God has already snapped His proverbial finger. We already have foreknowledge of God's. It may be seared, but it's there. What we're really discussing is either He must reaffirm this knowledge in you or prove that He has already snapped His finger.
@claudbase Because this is going to be how it happens for you, if and when you ever do come to believe. It won't be so much as something new that you will be surprised to learn, but more like something you've surprisingly always known being realized anew, or recalled.
@claudbase This also means that if you don't come to "believe", you won't stand before Him on the day of judgement and plead, as so many atheists have told me in the past, "So you really do exist! I never saw enough evidence to believe in you." No - you'll fall to your knees, declare Him Lord and admit, you always knew that He existed, but you didn't want to know what you knew so you simply, over time, suppressed that knowledge until you finally declared Him dead - non-existent.
@4GodSoLoves Actually, in my experience, the atheist already knows that there is ample scientific evidence for God's factual appearance and activities, but he is in denial of that fact, by dint of an emotional imbalance.
For more information on these facts, see my videos entitled "The atheist Rejects the Truth," and "ATHEIST ASKS DR. FRANK TUREK "AM I GOING TO HELL?"" (on YT channel 1GodOnlyOne)
@OneGodOnly1 Hi there, OneGodOnly1, it's nice to meet you once again.
Yes, I've seen both of those video's. They are indeed quite telling. But this is not necessarily true in all cases, I'm sure you agree. So, not just assuming this, I'm trying to ascertain how it really is for this particular person, who in the past, has demonstrated intelligence and who's skepticism doesn't seem to translate to cynicism. It's a genuine curiosity on my part; I'd really like to know the answer.
@Zangomatic By the way thanks for always being so polite in this discussion. Many people on youtube end up insulting each other or cowardly block the other side so as not to have to defend their position.
Sounds like your an "atheist" of the agnostic variety - you don't have belief in God. You're not a classic atheist who asserts the position: "There is no God."
If this is the case, then you don't HAVE a position to defend (with regard to God's existence). You've only asserted something about yourself (that you don't believe in God) - You've made no substantive claims about the world outside of your head.
And I agree with your assertion - you don't have belief.
@claudbase And it does no good to redefine Christian faith in any other way than the way it is defined in scripture. Faith is truly based on knowledge, but it is more than that once it comes full circle because knowledge, knowing, is a reward of faith. Faith itself is in itself evidence, evidence of things unseen.
@claudbase While faith is "based" on knowledge, faith is not in "acting" on knowledge. It takes little faith to act on something you know. Faith is acting on what one "believes" to be true and if that thing really is true, then faith is rewarded. Believe in Christ, and your faith can reward you with eternal life. Faith is putting your trust in some one or something.
"Free-choice" is a common misconception, among the Christian community. Really, it's just an ignorant choice of words, more than anything. Excluding the billions born into wrong cultures and being damned to eternal hell for ignorance of revelation; let's just speak of "free-choice" which, my theistic counterparts, is an illusion. =)
Free-choice, would be: "Do what you like." But no, what you have is: "Do as I say. Or else." That, my friends, is not "choice." That, is an "ultimatum." =D
Since you reject the "common misconception" of free choice. What, in your view, is the proper conception?
re: "That's not choice. That's an ultimatum." An ultimatum is a KIND of choice - in which one option entails severe consequences, as in: "You may take this life-saving pill or die from your terminal disease" or "Pull your ripcord before you hit the ground or perish."
It's not the choice one WANTS, perhaps. But it IS a choice.
First. Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of right and wrong since God did not teach them that. They did not know that eating from the tree was bad.
Secondly, Free will is a joke. You have the option of choosing between what God wants and eternal torture in Hell. How is this a choice? It's like a robber saying: "Your money or your life!" There is no true choice to begin with.
Thirdly, heaven is free from suffering so GOD CAN CREATE SUCH A PLACE
re: "God can create such a place [free from suffering]" Yes, agreed. He has! And presented with the choice of entering or not entering such a place - which do you choose?
re: "Free will is a joke" - The choice is presented to us AFTER sin and evil infested our race. Without the choice being offered, we have no hope whatsoever.
Like a patient with a terminal disease being offered a life-saving pill - his predicament is bad. The choice is not.
I'd choose whatever isn't eternal torture =) So I fail to see where the free will is.
Also, 80% of us Earthlings arn't Christians, so why would God set up the world in such a way that most of us will fail to meet his demands? Even in the bible he says that only a few will go to heaven.
I like your anology, but in this case god created us sick, indeed he has created all of our actual diseases.
What hopes do poor africans have of hearing the good word?
100% of us do not meet his demands (perfection). Heaven cannot be earned - it's a gift.
Receiving Christ, however, requires acknowledging one's NEED for him. Our pride gets in the way.
re: Free will. Although it's foolish to freely choose to NOT take advantage of God's gift, most people prefer to "reign in hell than serve in heaven". Yes, the choice is simple and straightforward - but it is clearly a CHOICE.
God created us "very good" - Gen 1:31. Our nature includes free moral agency. Despite the risk entailed, Freedom is good!
You enjoy the freedom to drive a car. The risk: you could, in a fit of rage, plow your car head on into another. Society is aware of this risk, yet still allows us this freedom. It's worth it.
Shadow is a lack of light. Evil, a lack of good. Sickness, a lack of health. God didn't create evil and suffering. He allows it.
@Zangomatic God created us the way we are, so if there are sinners and sinning it means that God create us that way. Now, he demands from us that we do not sin, so he created us "sick" commanding us to be "well"
re:Shadow is a lack of light. Evil, a lack of good. Sickness, a lack of health. God didn't create evil and suffering. He allows it.
This makes more since, but mainly because it sounds less then Christianity and more like Law of attraction :)
re:"why does the perfect creator not creat perfect beings?" He did. Free moral agency was part of their perfect nature.
re: "Why does God not care about people in China, etc?" He does. He died for them. In fact, China, India, and Africa are currently hotbeds of Christian growth.
re: "to be fair god should make sure that all humans have the exact same ... chances." Excellent topic! Good book: "What About Those Who Have Never Heard?" by IVP.
@Zangomatic re: Free moral agency was part of their perfect nature.
Then why do they not able to make perfect decisions then?
re:China, India, and Africa are currently hotbeds of Christian growth.
2000 years since Jesus and still 80% will end up in hell, is this the best an omnipotent god can do?
Thanks for the tip, I've read parts of it =) If that apologetic is true, all that is needed for heaven is being good, cutting out the Christianity/Jesus middle men :)
re: "why do they not able to make perfect decisions then?" They WERE able to make good decisions - and they WERE able to make bad decisions. This is free moral agency.
re: "omnipotent" - This means his power is not limited. It does NOT mean he can do logically absurd "tasks" like: make a married bachelor. Another logically absurd task is: force free moral agents to obey. If they are forced, they are not free. If they are not forced, they will disobey some of the time.
re:Another logically absurd task is: force free moral agents to obey.
Yet, he commands us to. Not only that, he bribes us with eternal bliss if we do as he wants. Furthermore he also threatens us with eternal punishment if we don't obey. But hey, we're free to choose whatever we want as long as it's the thing he wants us to choose.
The second there are divine and compelling consequences, there is no longer any true free will my friend :) Only what God wants or eternalt torture
You said "there is no longer any true free will" and then you give the two options that can be chosen (heaven or hell).
Lots of people choose to say "NO" to God. Lots choose "YES". It seems apparent to me that A) there IS a choice (as you mentioned) between bliss and agony... and B) that choice is a FREE CHOICE. We both know people who have freely chosen "NO", and people who have freely chosen "YES".
What do you mean when you say there is NO choice and we are NOT free to choose?
If all were equally informed of the A, God is real, B Hell is real, nobody would knowingly choose that option. Nobody would choose hell out will, if they had full knowledge of it and knew it to be true. Now God does not bother to convince people about this. At best its just a twisted game for him to see who makes it and who he'll get to fry. Such a god doesn't make any sense at all
Well, I do not in any way reject the concept of there being forces in the universe that are completely beyond our ability to comprehend or imagine. I do however find it extremely improbable that this force is named Yahweh, appeared in bronze age Palestine and told the local illiterade desert tribes what foods they may not eat, whom they may or may not have sex with and orderd them to kill all first born babies in Egypt. The complete lack of evidence is the reason I can't believe it
Yes I think that is an appropriate label. I find Yahweh, Zeus and Allah to all be equally improbable. I can, however, never disprove the existance of any of them. So I am an agnostic atheist in theory, but a strong atheist in practice I guess, since I live my life as if no deity of that kind exists.
You're agnostic about God's existence, yet you live "as if no deity exists". By your own admission, then, your life is inconsistent with your worldview. Does this ever bother you?
I'm a theist because God's existence seems more plausible than his non-existence. I'm a Christian, in particular, because Jesus' claim to be God was verified by his resurrection, Jesus' perfect life, and Jesus' fulfillment of prophecies made hundreds of years before he was born.
I am only agnostic in the sense that I can't disprove any God's existance, just like you can't disprove Allah or Shiva. I'm also agnostic about the world existing tomorrow, I can't prove it, but see no valid reason to doubt it either =)
Thanks for sharing =)
I see. With all due respect, what proof do you have that all wasn't simply made up? Do you see any real world evidence that supports the claims of the Bible and the Bible only?
We don't require "PROOF" of anything (except maybe math?).
We observe, weigh evidence, respond emotionally, react personally, then we decide which idea is MOST PLAUSIBLE. I can't prove that this chair will support me - but I don't require proof. "This chair will hold my weight" seems more plausible than its negation. So I sit down accordingly.
"The NT documents are historically reliable" and "God exists" are, in my view, more plausible than their negations. So I seek to live accordingly.
You have proof, chairs have supported you an others billions of times and few have ever failed. That is solid empirical evidence which can also be confirmed by physical theories.
The census of Quirinius in the Gospel of Luke is false, There are no external reports of Resurrection of the Dead Saints. Two of the gospel writers says nothing of the virgin birth, stating Joseph as Jesus true father etc. Also, historical facts do not prove anything since it's still just fiction :)
@mansanraps re: "historical facts do not prove anything" Certainly each of us must determine what we think is plausible. Historical facts, in my view, lend plausibility to the Christian worldview.
So if something is NOT verified by "solid empirical evidence" and "physical theories" it cannot be true?
re:So if something is NOT verified(....)it cannot be true?
The exodus has been completely disproved, all the sciences have disproved the flood myth. There is no proof of any of the miracles and no proof of Yahweh's existance, creationism has been disproved, as has the geocentric universe.
Yes, things can be true without evdence, but in this case there are tons of opposing evidence. The earth is no a flat circle as the Bible claims, nor ar bats birds. How do you deal with that?
If you sincerely WANTED TO UNDERSTAND the biblical text, you'd dig more deeply.
None of the concerns you've mentioned are new or unresolvable. Example: "Bible claims earth is flat circle." When Isaiah says "The Lord sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" (40:22), he's using a visual literary device (like when you say "The sun 'rose'"). Context: God is greater than or above his creation.
@Zangomatic re:None of the concerns you've mentioned are new or unresolvable.
Indeed, they've all been debunked. I've read many passages and it's clear that they know nothing about astronomy, and how could they. Bats being birds, the flood, the creation myth and the exodus have all been disproved.Or do you beg to differ?
What is the main reason, you think, that no outside sources confirms these claims? It's either a conspiracy over all the sciences throgh time, or the bible is just plain wrong
@Zangomatic Ever consider that you might be wrong and some other religion might be the true one? The only way you have to judge which one is true is by faith, the same faith that all other religions followers use to justify their own belief (that by the way contradict yours). Mutually exclusive beliefs cannot all be true. So how can you honestly know that you are right?
@claudbase And all your talk about being from other countries: None of that means anything - it has no baring on the truth of God's Word. If I had the wrong faith, how would that make the Gospel of Christ different, or wrong? It would just make me wrong.
Look - God isn't at war with you, so don't war against God. His war is with Satan, the prize: your soul. Don't side with...
@claudbase ...Satan who hates you; side with God who loves you. Satan already has your soul and God wants to save you from that captivity, only IF you want Him to. There are three votes being cast for your soul, Satan's, God's and yours. You hold the tie-breaking vote. It's called free will. Choose wisely. Repent (change your mind) believe (put your trust, your faith) in Jesus.
"Ever consider that you might be wrong?" - Excellent question! Yes, this is so incredibly important. Logically, I COULD BE DEAD WRONG. It could be that Islam presents an accurate picture of reality...or perhaps atheists have it right.
Faith, however, is not a way of knowing something. Faith is a RESPONSE to that which is known. For example, I have knowledge that a particular elevator is safe. But if I refuse to step into it, I lack faith. If I had faith, I'd respond by using the elevator.
@Zangomatic But then you do understand that faith is not a way of knowing something. This is a major point that many atheists are trying to put in the head of some way too convinced theist. Faith sometime leads to an absurd certainty about unanswerable questions. This sometime leads some people to impose their views or even kills other humans, all in the name of "God" (and the worst is that they feel totally justified for their actions: God told them what they should do!)
Yes. Faith is based on knowledge. So, although I admire the writings of Mark Twain, I'd have to disagree with his view that "Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
re: "impose their views or even kills other humans" - Yes, the desire to control and harm one another seems to be part of human nature. Even atheists have been known to join in every now and then (Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, Lenin, Than Shwe, Kim Jong Il, Jim Jones, Mussolini...).
@Zangomatic Re:What do you mean when you say there is NO choice and we are NOT free to choose?
Sorry for not clarifying more. People say no due to a complete lack of verifyable, testable, falsifiable empirical evidence. It's the same reasons for you not Beliving in Allah, Ra, Mithra, Shiva, Poseidon or Yahweh. Extraordinary claims demand equally extraodrinary evidence. If there was sufficient proof of Yahweh, I too would be a believer, or rather a knower :)
@mansanraps - re: "people say no due to ... lack of ... evidence."
If people were purely intellectual machines, I'd agree with you. But this doesn't strike me as consistent with human nature. We also have emotions and a will.
Additionally, the idea of God is LOADED with personal implications for how I live my life. I can be indifferent about whether Pluto is a planet or not. But the question of whether my Creator exists, loves me, and calls me to account - this is a different sort of question.
@mansanraps "They did not know that eating from the tree was bad' so if a child (they were not kids, they were full grown perfect adults) steals from a parent for the first time you dont discipline them because they didn't know. (hell is a myth. adam eve and all are just dead) "Free will is a joke" Go drive your car and go anywhere. if you go over the speed limit you broke a law. you are FREE to drive the car 120 in a 60 but not the RIGHT to do so. Therefore you get in trouble.
God had deliberately not given them the kowledge to know right from wrong. That knowledge could only be gained from eating the fruit, so they could not tell good from evil.
Hell is not a myth but a real place according to the bible.
Your anology is flawed. The options are: Follow Gods rules or burn in hell, which would be like, "Cars going past 60mph will be blown up, but you are by all means free to do so"
@mansanraps re: "Hell is not a myth" - Agreed. Hell is quite real according to the NT. Those who suggest that Jesus/NT teach otherwise are performing impressive text twisting to create a happy ending.
re: knowledge of good and evil. This is a really good topic! If Adam DIDN'T know it was wrong to eat, how could he be held responsible? But If he DID know it was wrong, then he ALREADY had knowledge of good and evil.
Does 'knowledge' mean "experiential" versus "intellectual"? Dunno. Good point!
re:Those who suggest that Jesus/NT teach otherwise are performing impressive text twisting to create a happy ending.
Yeah I agree
re: Does 'knowledge' mean "experiential" versus "intellectual"? Dunno. Good point!
I always found this part of the Bible very interesting. It seems like at least God knew that it would happen since he created him curious but unaware of right and wrong :)
re: "how can something that doesent exist outside the human fantasy be good?" Excellent point. Something that does NOT exist cannot be either good OR bad.
re: "Blind belief" Which blind belief, in particular, are you commenting on? The belief that God does not exist? Or something else?
@Zangomatic Blind belief in general, really. Belief in something that not only have no basis in reality, but also contradicts what we know about reality.
Or in other words: The belief that something that doesent exist outside the human fantasy are the objective reality.
This video/logic is flawed in so many ways, blind belief in gods - blind belief in a free will - and the belief that "good" and "evil" exists outside of subjective human values.
@1TtidnaB - I share your disdain for blind belief.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're suggesting that the belief in God is blind. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support this belief of yours?
@Zangomatic I cant prove a negative, besides - the burden of proof lies on the one making the claims. There is nothing in reality that indicates that gods exist - therefore; religious belief is perfectly blind.
You say your god exist, but you have nothing but blind faith to support that claim. I say your god doesent exist, because there exist no valid reason to believe so. Just like with the easter bunny and Odin.
@1TtidnaB re: "Burden of proof lies on the one making the claims."
Yes. And you're the one making the claim that belief in God is blind. So apparently the burden of proof lies with you on this one.
(Also, by way of clarification, the video says nothing about "gods". The God referred to in the video is "the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe" (webster) not a finite 'god'.)
Until there exist proof of your god, your belief is blind, fact. The same goes for the other few million gods and fantasymade religious and nonreligious nonexisting phenomenons. I dont have to prove that your belief is blind, because its automatically blind because of the total lack of evidence. Maybe you are psycotic?
@1TtidnaB re: "Are you really this unintelligent?" Perhaps! There's gobs of things I don't understand.
For example, I don't understand why you think I said I have no proof. I don't understand why you suggest that I'm "psycotic" because of my belief in God (this would mean 95% of humanity is also "psycotic").
I don't understand why, after admitting you can't prove a negative (like, "God does not exist") you seem to adopt this position.
@Zangomatic We both know you do not have a shred of proof, millions desperately seeks proof, yet none exist - neither for your god or any of the millions of other gods.
.
You have no proof all of the other gods doesent exist, yet you claim so - does that make you a blind believer? No, you simply do not believe in other gods. What makes you a blind believer is your blind belief in your god. You blindly believe in a reality that doesent exist outside your fantasy.
@Zangomatic A negative doesent exist, so I dont believe in it. You do, blindly. I have nothing to prove, because I'm not claiming that something that doesent exist - do exist. I am claiming that something that doesent exist - doesent exist, and the evidence (lack of) support me.
I have a open mind. Present evidence and I am open for anything, unlike you - uncritically and blindly believing in old myths.
Why assume that I'm uncritical in my thinking - and blind in my belief? Because I disagree with you? (Pascal, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton also disagreed with your position.)
Faith isn't a way of knowing; rather, faith is trusting what I have come to know as true. I don't know God exists by faith. I know God exists the way I know other things are true. I evaluate the evidence and choose the most reasonable explanation.
Why require evidence for MY position but not for yours? I'd find that approach to dialogue unsatisfying. Evidence matters to you? Yet you hold a position for which you cannot have evidence. Explain?
Evidence - for what it's worth:
The universe had a beginning – requires a Cause (cannot cause itself).
Biological information exists – but only a mind can generate information.
Absolute moral law exists – an absolute moral law giver must exist.
@Zangomatic You say the same unintelligent puke that have been torn to shreds millions of times, you blindly believe - and you are not able able to see your own psycosis.
Absolute moral law" no.
Only a mind can generate information, no.
The universe had a beginning - maybe, we dont know for sure - well exept you and all other religious people from the over 130000 different religious faiths. Is it so terrible to admit that you have nothing but faith?
Yes, God is good:Witches, kill them. Homosexuals, kill them.fortunetellers, kill them. those who don`t listen to priests, kill them. those hitting their dad, kill them. those who curse their parents, kill them, adulterers, kill them. fornicators, kill them. people who believe in other religions, kill them. non-believers,kill them. fals prohets ,kill them. blasphemers, kill them. those who work on the Sabbath, kill them. This is the word of god. Alleluiah.
But, no - and fortunately for us - God cannot do anything (It is impossible for God to lie Heb. 6:18.)
You and I can he learn, improve, grow, commit suicide, make mistakes, commit evil, decompose, break a promise, get sick, wonder about the future...and so on. God cannot.
These "limitations" don't mean God is weak in any sense; to the contrary, they describe his infinite power, wisdom, and goodness.
@blue0magic - Thanks for the kind comment. It's cool that you can like a video you disagree with!
re: "I don't think god(sic) is real" I believe everyone is entitled to his/her own view. What's yours?
Are we random molecular accidents existing in a universe that caused itself, fine-tuned itself, spontaneously generated life forms with self-aware minds that are walking around under the crazy illusion that our lives have objective meaning, value, and purpose?
All-Powerful = Can do anything that is LOGICALLY possible? That would mean: God is less powerful then logic ald causality. But isn't He the Creator of logic and causality, because He's the Creator of anything?
Thus: All-Powewrful = Can do anything, even logically INPOSSIBLE paradox things?
@Hattakiri - Thank you for your thoughtful comment/question.
re: "Isn't [God] the creator of logic...?" - Logic is a description of how God thinks. Like 'truth' or 'goodness', its source is found in God's nature. God, and therefore logic, weren't created - they had no beginning.
God cannot: cease to exist, lie, act immorally, learn, be confused, or improve. But these "inabilities" don't represent any lack of power. Hence, "God is all-powerful" holds, even though God cannot do some things.
@Zangomatic The question is: What are God's properties? Thinking? Goodness? Infinit knowledge? Or the straight opposite? Are we even able to know and name them? Taoism says, we will have bad chances...
"Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself.
Even the finest name is insufficient to define it.
I agree - the important question is: "If God exists, what is God like? Is he knowable?"
It seems that if God is, in fact, God - then he is infinitely higher than us. Is it possible that God would desire for us to know him in some small way? We could never fully COMPREHEND God, but might we APPREHEND some aspects of God?
A child standing on the shore understands the ocean is salty, watery, and big. So even though her understanding is extremely limited, her understanding is true.
@Zangomatic A child on the shore can touch the ocean and drink a little bit. Can we do something similar with God? I live, I think, I feel - because of God, or because of physical and biological laws? Or because of those laws, which exist because of God? Or: Is God those laws?
That's why there is the Apophatic (or Negative) Theology, trying to name anything which God is not. Taoism is a little bit like that.
Ultimately it all comes down to the question: Why is there something and not nothing?
@Zangomatic To me, it seems a contradiction to God's character for there to exist something that it didn't create (ex. logic). Logic is not a mere description, it is a mode of mental operation used to relate one's knowledge to new knowledge and physical observations. It is a method for solving problems and discovering truth, not for calculating only what you already know, and without a need for this "learning", there really seems to be no need for god to retain logic at all.
re: "Obey me or ... I will punish you" - Parents take this approach to parenting. This is the policy of the government, the army, most businesses and, come to think of it, every professor I've ever had enacted the same policy.
Is punishment for disobedience to authority wrong?
Or is rebellion against an infinitely high authority not a big enough deal to merit severe punishment?
@Zangomatic Is burning and torturing your own child for eternity for not beliveing in magic, fair ? I would understand if God simple wouldn't let rebellious people to heaven, but just left earth to those who won't obey. but if you realy read the whole bible you can't ague that god is all good and forgiving, can you now. I would recoment you to watch few of NonStampCollector's videos, and you'll see how ridiculous does the bible sound to us atheists
@Merveilleux202 re: "Is burning and torturing your own child for eternity for not beliveing in magic, fair ?" No.
re: "You can't argue that God is all good..." I can - just as you can argue that he's not.
re: "how ridiculous the bible sounds to us atheists". It seems reasonable to me that the Bible sounds ridiculous to someone who is convinced the main character doesn't exist.
And can you imagine how silly atheist comments sound to theists?
@Merveilleux202 That's a man made tradition and an absolute lie about how God is. It's not as pathetic as "Obey me or else!" like modern Christianity has made it. It's as simple as, "Stop trying to obey those stupid rules as an attempt to impress me because I'm already impressed with you. So just accept that you're accepted by me."
That's it. The issue is not in people obeying rules or not, it's in thinking that their own efforts are what impress God. Christians have it wrong.
@SaintsnotSinners but is he still going to send every man woman and children to eternal suffer because they didn't belive in the right god, or god at all like me.
@Merveilleux202 I wouldn't believe in God either based on the bullshit Christians say about Him. So I don't blame you, buddy. Jesus said, "Don't believe my message unless I show you that I am who I say I am by doing miracles." So I respect atheists because they don't just blindly follow some guy on stage like many Christians. Jesus gave people permission to not believe unless they were shown proof. He told the church to give people proof. But instead they spiritualize the lack of it.
@Zangomatic "Citation?" - John 10:37. "Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father." The context is Him saying He is God's son and people getting offended at such a claim. So He said, "Okay, don't believe my claim to be God's son unless I do what a son of God can do." The "works" He is referring to is miracles.
He told His church to do what He did in Matt. 10:8-9, Matt. 28:19-20, John 20:21, etc.
re: John 10:37 - Yes - Jesus' miracles made his claim to be God's son undeniable. And if I were to claim to be the Son of God, I would need to perform some spectacular miracles to back that up. But Christians aren't making such a claim; rather, we're pointing to Jesus who DID make that claim.
Are you saying that if I don't heal somebody, or turn water into wine, then it's OK for people to NOT believe me when I tell them about Jesus and his grace?
Some questions are existentially irrelevant - they don't matter much:
- Is Pluto a planet? How many wings does a housefly have?
Others are existentially relevant - they profoundly effect our lives:
- Do I have cancer? Is my spouse faithful? Does this airplane work?
Some approach the question of God's existence with indifference, as if it was merely academic, as if it belonged to the first category.
What do you think?
Zangomatic 5 hours ago
re: "should justify this world filled with suffering."
We justify small pains (drilling a tooth) with small gains (a healthy, pain-free tooth).
We justify big pains (soldier jumps on a grenade) with big gains (saves his 5 buddies).
As long as it is POSSIBLE that God is moving toward a GAIN that justifies all the PAIN that has ever existed, then He is not necessarily illogical or evil.
Are you sure an all-powerful, all-knowing God CANNOT have a huge gain in mind? How can you be sure?
Zangomatic 2 days ago
So we have "freedom" to be evil and refuse God, and if we choose that, we'll be tortured forever in hell - WOW, what a "freedom". And this "choice" (which is not a free choice in any sense) should justify this world filled with suffering, injustice, evil, hunger, disease, war and so on? This is not a free will like you're saying, this is an excuse (and really bad one) by God to torture us all - some in this life, the rest even after they die. Conclusion: "Christian God is illogical and evil".
davidwerl 4 days ago
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@davidwerl "This is not a free will like you're saying, this is an excuse (and really bad one) by God to torture us all - some in this life, the rest even after they die." No, it is free will, and you know it. Why do you argue against God. Satan brought sin and death into the world for the very purpose of tearing you away from God, because he knew this would hurt God. Satan doesn't want you. He doesn't care about you at all. He cares only about his hatred of God. You are merely...
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@davidwerl ...a means to an end. But God does care for you. He made a way for you to escape from Satan's grasp. Satan brought sin and death into the world because he knew that sin would cause death, and he wants you to die. God brought life into the world and He wants you to partake in that life eternally, just the way it was intended from the beginning. Satan (sin) sows to death. Christ (Holiness) sows to life. Your free will determines what you sow for yourself. We reap what we sow.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves "We reap what we sow." - Wow. Christians think life begins when sperm enters egg. What if that fertilized egg right after is fertilized (which happens a lot (God made abortion)). Can you then explain me how that egg did earn what it sow for going to hell (because it didn't accept Christ - if you think it goes to heaven then the same question)??? Either God sends innocent into hell, or he send to heaven someone who never lived - so why we have to live and suffer? Where's justice???
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl And all that yours Satan bullshit does not explain my point that we actually have no choice.
BTW: QUESTION: Who created Satan knowing what he'll become and he'll do to us?
ANSWER: Our "loving" God
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl "BTW: QUESTION: Who created Satan knowing what he'll become and he'll do to us? ANSWER: Our "loving" God" Adding quotation marks around the wold loving is quite tell. So what I'm getting from you is: You really do believe in the one true God, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. You really do believe that God created the world and mankind, you just hate Him for some reason. If this...
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@davidwerl ...is true, then you're living in "open" rebellion and I can't help you with that without knowing what the specifics are in your case - other than to tell you to get over it and for your own good just stop it. But to answer your objection anyway: God created Lucifer but angels also have free will and Satan, like you and me decided to chose to sin. It seems that you're just looking for excuses and that you're just throwing things against the wall hoping something will stick.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves Would you create someone if you knew that it will turn against you, make innocent suffer and in the end you would make that creature suffer for ever? Isn't that cruel and stupid? If he hadn't created Satan we would be alright and he would spare Satan from being tortured for ever. Creating him was dumb and cruel. Is this really a god you want to believe in?
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl "If he hadn't created Satan we would be alright..." No, I don't think so. Remember, Satan persuaded 1/3 of the angles to join him in his rebellion against God. If not Lucifer, it would have been another. You also said: "Creating him was dumb and cruel." Well then, according to you, God made another mistake; before He created anything, he should have created you, because you claim to know better than God about how He should have done things.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves Actually yes, because I, contrary to laughably illogical and stupid God of the Bible, can at least use reason and logic to some extent, and I would also not allow innocent to suffer... So yes, Biblical God is cruel, stupid, illogical and contradicting.
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl I really don't get where you're going with this, but we understand as Christians that sin can have it's effect on a soul only when that soul is aware of right and wrong - i.e., one makes the choice to do wrong while understanding what right and wrong is. So, before the age of accountability, a child is still considered innocent, and only innocence can enter Heaven. What happens in the case of the egg you mentioned? I don't know, but there can be no hell in its destiny.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves Well then let me ask you if that "egg" goes to heaven, why did God send us (living) on Earth to suffer and to have a "choice" (to be tortured for ever) when for some (the egg) it's clear, that they can go to heaven right away without any life long suffering or stupid "choices"? Is this idea of "righteous" God that takes one into heaven just like that and the other will suffer extremely whole life and then be thrown into hell just because he's, let's say, sexually living homosexual?
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl Okay, I've answered all of this in previous posts on this thread. As for the egg: Are you jealous of the egg that never cam into this world? That he or she did not know life and it's ups and downs and therefore you're unfortunate to have known life? You ask if this is righteous. It is neither righteous or unrighteous. Things like this happen in this fallen world because sin has corrupted God's perfect creation. The bodies of our parents are perfect like Adam and Eve was.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves I meant to say: The bodies of our parents are NOT perfect like Adam and Eve was.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves So that's what you're telling to children in Africa dying of hunger and AIDS while in extreme poverty? That they should be glad to suffer??! The example with egg proves that we don't need to live a life to go to heaven, and lot of people from less happy parts than US are actually born, then suffer and then die miserably... and some of them then go to hell, while someone who didn't suffer anything (the egg) goes to heaven right away. Call this anything less than unfair is hypocrisy.
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl And why do you come here and complain about the suffering around the world as if God hasn't done anything about it? He has sent you, me, us, the more fortunate. Sin is the cause of all of this. Why rave against God - repent - and go help them yourself. We are able.
So why is there still suffering in a question God asks of you and me. We are told to feed the hungry, help the poor, heal the sick, comfort the down-heartened. So God asks us why we aren't doing this.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves I complain because God did NOT do anything about it. And he certainly didn't tell me anything - ever. I'm trying to feed hungry (but because of any god or gods) but it'll never be enough. If God would exist he would be morally obliged to help those people but he does not. Maybe because he does not exist and because Christianity is just a meme.
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl "And he certainly didn't tell me anything - ever." Yes He did. He did in at least two ways: He did it by way of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels and he did it by writing it upon your heart. If you are doing your part to feed them, then you should know that it CAN be done - if only more would help - if only ALL would obey God's Word and help. Every single church I know does something to help the needy.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves I don't know any god except Flying Spaghetti Monster, so it is FSM who is telling me to help people. And if you give money to church it's like 95% of that money wasted on salary, buildings, spreading the meme and so on. Only like 5% go to real help to people so churches are useless.
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl And thereby, you rave against the help that God has sent. But don't get me wrong, I do accept your premise that the organized Churches could do more and should, and I too think that much of the way some of them (larger ones especially) handle finances and such are concerned, needs improvement (may God judge fairly) but no, this is not most I don't think. But I (one who does not attend any church) am talking about God's word, particularly the Gospel of Christ, what He said.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@davidwerl You're confusion comes because you don't define God as He is, you define Him as you are.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves I read Bible several times and I can tell that god as is described there is evil and could not exist.
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl Okay then. May you enjoy whatever amount of time you have left in this life, and may you find some peace while you are here on Earth. God bless.
4GodSoLoves 3 days ago
@4GodSoLoves I wish you to find the truth, and free yourself from bondage of that meme.
davidwerl 3 days ago
@davidwerl - Thanks for your thoughtful comment. You and I arrive at different conclusions...but I appreciate the fact that you THINK about this stuff.
You (and many others) would PREFER not to be in the predicament of having to make a choice between submitting to God forever, on one hand, and burning in hell forever, on the other. If you didn't have to make this choice, you'd be happier.
And if Christianity is not true - this choice vanishes - it's irrelevant.
Is this your thinking?
Zangomatic 2 days ago
@Zangomatic God basically gave us choice so he can punish us for not obeying him. If we wouldn't have this "choice" we would be in heaven, no one would have to suffer in this world or the world after (hell) and everybody would be happy including God which would not have to send lot of people to hell.
Create someone only to tempt them and if they fail then torture them forever??? Only some sick sadistic evil psycho god would do that.
davidwerl 2 days ago
re: "God gave us choice so he can punish us" - How do you know this is God's motive?
re: "If we didn't have choice we would be in heaven..." - True. Good point. God didn't HAVE to make us free moral agents. He COULD have made us more like cabbages.
You seem to believe that it's EVIL for God to give FREEDOM to his creatures? Why do you believe this?
Does your disdain for God lead you to conclude He doesn't exist? (Sounds kinda funny: "I don't like you so you don't exist.")
Zangomatic 2 days ago
@Zangomatic
Because it's the outcome.
I really don't think that if you hadn't "choice" to suffer eternally for wrong move that it would make you a "cabbage". On the contrary, you wouldn't have to care if your deeds piss off some daddy in skies, so you would actually feel more free than this way.
And I don't believe in god because his actions and behaviour is illogical, therefore he's either dumb and retarded which cannot be because he should be all knowing and so on, or else he don't exist.
davidwerl 1 day ago
Thanks for your thought reply. Do you think some actions are morally bad - and others are morally good?
Zangomatic 1 day ago
@Zangomatic I don't believe in absolute morality, like that lie is just bad no matter the circumstances. But I do have a morality and yes I do believe some actions are morally wrong. Basics of my morality stands not on Bible, but on the golden rule - do to others the same as you would wish they done to you.
davidwerl 1 day ago
@Zangomatic Have you ever thought about how lucky you are to have been born in a Christian country? If you were born in a Muslim or Hindu country, chances are that you would be a convinced Muslim or a Hindu, condemned to be tortured for eternity.
claudbase 6 days ago
@claudbase - Good point. I do sometimes wonder why I was born where and when I was. But I don't think luck has anything to do with it. "[God] marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." (Acts 17:26)
Convinced Muslims, Hindus, and atheists, can become convinced followers of Jesus Christ, if they so choose.
Thanks for your comments.
Zangomatic 6 days ago
I ment: "while making sure he does EVERITHING not to become too obvious"
claudbase 6 days ago
I am always baffled when Christians talk about how good and loving God is. He created all humans the way they are, knowing that 70% or more were condemned to live a short live, then be tortured for ever and ever. All this for simply not believing in him, while making sure he does not to become too obvious. The idea that he does this to give people "free will" for a minuscule number of years before sending the large majority to suffer for the rest of eternity is just so incredibly stupid.
claudbase 6 days ago
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@claudbase "I am always baffled when Christians talk about how good and loving God is." There are so many things wrong with this entire post. First, there is something wrong with your thinking - God did not create you. Your parents did by their own free will choice to have a child. God only created two people - Adam and Eve. So God didn't, knowing some would not come to Christ, create them anyway.
Another error in your post is when you said this: "All this for simply not...
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@4GodSoLoves Didn't God new before he created everything including me that I was going to drought your particular story and, because of the rules he made, would end up suffering forever in hell?
claudbase 6 days ago
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@claudbase "Didn't God new before he created everything including me that I was going to drought your particular story and, because of the rules he made, would end up suffering forever in hell?" Again, He didn't make you and the witness built into your soul that God exists is passed down to everyone from the breath of life breathed into your original ancestor Adam. And the 70% you say must also be blind - yes, they truly are - but they are because they want to be - like you. It...
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@claudbase ...is within all of us to believe, because the knowledge of God is built in to our soul. This knowledge can be denied and even suppressed by a consistent desire to do so. The conscience of a person is his witness, and that witness can be seared. God calls sin, sin. A man may not like that because he loves is, so instead of seeking God, he turns away, even denies, so before long his denial seems to be the right way, the correct way. That person may even look for reasons...
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@claudbase ...to justify his denial in such things as science and in other non-believers, when in truth there are truly no non-believers but deniers. Some will even talk about "believers" in the third party and use them as a reason to not believe instead of looking at the God within for reasons to believe. This deception manifests ultimately in blaming God for their own demise and placing on Him the deeds of the adversary, the devil. There's no excuse. God is evident in all He's made.
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@claudbase ...believing in him." God doesn't "punish" you for not believing in Him. "God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that through Him the world might be saved." - John 3: 17 So Jesus didn't come to condemn you (punish you) but to save you from the condemnation you are already under, as in John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one...
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@claudbase ...and only Son." You see, You belong to the god of this world, Satan. Your sin has made you his. He brought sin and death into the world - sin and death is the same thing, or part of the same thing, because sin brings death -the wages of sin is death- death is what sin produces. God provided a way out, a way to be free of sin and death. Practice sin, and you sow death; so you reap what you sow. Jesus...
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@4GodSoLoves I live my life by the "Do not do to others what you wouldn’t want others to do to you" principle. In my opinion, this is way better then some Christians that have done really evil thing all their life and that, simply because they believe in your particular story before they died, will go to heaven while extremely good people like Gandhi are going to suffer for eternity just because they did not believe in the same story.
claudbase 6 days ago
@claudbase ...paid the price, the wages of sin. Why fight that? He doesn't want to harm you, but to save you. "
Also you said: "...while making sure he does not to become too obvious." He is seen in all the things He's made including your own being. He has given you His Word by way of scripture and He has even sent His only begotten Son into the world as well as His own Spirit if you will only see these things when they are presented to you instead of rejecting them all. God is...
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@4GodSoLoves when I see all things, I see nature; a snowflake is not the proof of a snowflake maker. Notice how you now say that he made everything while in the next post you say that my parents made me, not him. You do realize that there are many other holy scriptures beside the bible with totally different stories. What you are basically saying is that I should see things the way you do but have no rational reason for your own belief.
claudbase 6 days ago
@claudbase ...not hiding - your just not looking, or you are just blind.
The last thing you said about free will: Surely your not saying you wish God had not given you free will?
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@4GodSoLoves If I am blind then so are more then 70% of all human being that do not believe in your particular story. If when they die, unbeliever were to find that they are condemned for eternal torture (simply for not believing in the right story), do you seriously believe that they would still be happy for these few year of free will, now that they are condemned to excruciating torture for ever and ever (infinity is a long time you know).
claudbase 6 days ago
re: "I am always baffled". I, too, am baffled!
I'm baffled when agnostics/atheists talk about how bad God is (God who doesn't exist). There's too much GOOD in this world for God to be a really nasty God. If He is hideously evil, how do we explain all the people who defy him by living decent lives, enjoying love, beauty, health, peace, and relative comfort?
I'm baffled by atheist's apparent moral indignation (saying God is "bad"?) - as if they had any basis for objective moral evaluation...
Zangomatic 6 days ago
@Zangomatic Atheists do not believe that the God of the bible exist. They simply try to open Christians eyes to how some of their story sounds to unbelievers. It is baffling how Christians totally lose their capacity to see what is so obvious to anybody that has not surrender to the Christian myth. What is also obvious is that theism makes people lose their rational judgment when it comes to their beliefs.
claudbase 6 days ago
Thanks for your comment. I agree that Christians sometimes forget how ridiculous our view of reality sounds to those who adhere to a different view. This lack of connection (empathy?) to non-Christians can make the discussion unproductive.
You're probably aware, however, that this works both ways. To the Christian, the atheist myth sounds not merely irrational - but utterly unlivable.
Zangomatic 6 days ago
@Zangomatic what do you find so utterly unbelievable; atheism is simply the rejection of the notion of God as presented by the theists. Most atheists will also tell you that, given sufficient proof, they would be ready to change their mind without any hesitation (can you honestly say the same?). You will have to excuse me but I have some difficulty in seeing a myth in this way of thinking.
claudbase 5 days ago
Would I be "ready to change my mind, given sufficient proof"? I don't need proof of atheism - mere plausibility would do the trick.
The Atheist Myth: We are randomly assembled molecular accidents existing by chance in a universe that caused itself, fine-tuned itself with miraculous jaw-dropping precision, spontaneously generated biological information - living creatures - with self-aware minds who think life has objective meaning, value, and purpose and live as though objective morality exists.
Zangomatic 5 days ago
@Zangomatic This description has nothing to do with atheism. Again atheism is simply the rejection of what theists define as God. You are simply making a straw men (or maybe an argument from ignorance?) of what you view is the scientist explanation for the universe and evolution. It is a totally false representation of the actual scientific theories. It’s also a false dichotomy (the actual origin of the universe might be completely different from everything that has been proposed so far).
claudbase 5 days ago
re: "This description has nothing to do with atheism" My sources for the Atheist Myth are statements from atheists on this site (see 1,800 comments below) and the writings of Hawking, Hitchens, Denton, Harris, Dawkins, Sagan, etc.
For example, Hawking writes, "The Universe can and will create itself from nothing" (from The Grand Design).
We could simplify it thus:
Atheist: "Matter created mind"
Theist: "Mind created matter"
Zangomatic 5 days ago
@claudbase "Most atheists will also tell you that, given sufficient proof, they would be ready to change their mind without any hesitation..." Proof or evidence? What kind of proof are you looking for? What would you consider to be "sufficient" evidence or proof?
4GodSoLoves 5 days ago
@4GodSoLoves any proof that would equally be accepted by any intelligent human being, independently of their educations or beliefs. Example: if I see a wall, nobody would say that the wall isn’t really there. If they did I could ask them to run into the "non wall" and I would have proven my point.
claudbase 5 days ago
@claudbase Okay, that really doesn't answer my question. I don't suppose you would want Him to create an actual invisible wall for you to walk into. I'm asking for something real. I mean specifically what would that thing that would convince you? I'm sincere with this question because I hear your statement said quite often, but I never hear any specifics given. So, I would really like to know exactly what particular evidence it would take to convince you.
4GodSoLoves 5 days ago
@4GodSoLoves God could snap his finger and remove the doubt from all humans about who he is. Notice that this would fit the criteria I proposed earlier. But then we are stuck with a dilemma: according to your beliefs, God think that this would somehow deprive us of our free will, so he will never do it (although I never understood this idea since you would still be free to love him or not; knowing who your parents are doesn't force you to love or respect them). (cont)
claudbase 5 days ago
@claudbase (cont) So no matter what I could define as a sufficient proof, you will always say that he doesn't want to do that, since it would (somehow) remove my free will.
claudbase 5 days ago
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@claudbase Well yes, but that then also doesn't answer the question. I don't want to "be able to refute your answer". I just want to understand why, you said, "...given sufficient proof, they would be ready to change their mind without any hesitation...". What does "given sufficient proof" mean "specifically"? I mean, the word "sufficient" is ambiguous. Please define "sufficient" in this context of "proof" by giving me a specific event. I assume you mean without faith being required.
4GodSoLoves 5 days ago
@claudbase You see, the reason I am asking this question is because I believe it requires faith to believe in God; not because He says so, but because it's just the natural way of things.
I'm not trying to set a trap for you, but rather to get to one of two points:
1 - Either you don't understand that no matter what evidence you say you require, it would still take a measure of faith to believe the evidence, or:
2 - You know something I don't know and I would like to. So I ask.
4GodSoLoves 4 days ago
@claudbase Also, don't think I haven't noticed the seemingly appropriate answer of God just snapping His fingers and removing all doubt. I don't see this as a legitimate answer because I have already addressed this in another post. God has already snapped His proverbial finger. We already have foreknowledge of God's. It may be seared, but it's there. What we're really discussing is either He must reaffirm this knowledge in you or prove that He has already snapped His finger.
4GodSoLoves 4 days ago
@claudbase Because this is going to be how it happens for you, if and when you ever do come to believe. It won't be so much as something new that you will be surprised to learn, but more like something you've surprisingly always known being realized anew, or recalled.
4GodSoLoves 4 days ago
@claudbase And on that day, I promise you will say, "He was with me all the time."
4GodSoLoves 4 days ago
@claudbase This also means that if you don't come to "believe", you won't stand before Him on the day of judgement and plead, as so many atheists have told me in the past, "So you really do exist! I never saw enough evidence to believe in you." No - you'll fall to your knees, declare Him Lord and admit, you always knew that He existed, but you didn't want to know what you knew so you simply, over time, suppressed that knowledge until you finally declared Him dead - non-existent.
4GodSoLoves 4 days ago
@4GodSoLoves Actually, in my experience, the atheist already knows that there is ample scientific evidence for God's factual appearance and activities, but he is in denial of that fact, by dint of an emotional imbalance.
For more information on these facts, see my videos entitled "The atheist Rejects the Truth," and "ATHEIST ASKS DR. FRANK TUREK "AM I GOING TO HELL?"" (on YT channel 1GodOnlyOne)
OneGodOnly1 5 days ago 2
@OneGodOnly1 Hi there, OneGodOnly1, it's nice to meet you once again.
Yes, I've seen both of those video's. They are indeed quite telling. But this is not necessarily true in all cases, I'm sure you agree. So, not just assuming this, I'm trying to ascertain how it really is for this particular person, who in the past, has demonstrated intelligence and who's skepticism doesn't seem to translate to cynicism. It's a genuine curiosity on my part; I'd really like to know the answer.
4GodSoLoves 5 days ago
@4GodSoLoves No, actually, I don't agree.
OneGodOnly1 4 days ago
@OneGodOnly1 Ha, now why doesn't that surprise me.
4GodSoLoves 4 days ago
@4GodSoLoves Because what you said was not true, Brother! (you asked)
; )
OneGodOnly1 4 days ago
@OneGodOnly1 Yes I did. And what is it that I said that isn't true.
4GodSoLoves 4 days ago
@Zangomatic By the way thanks for always being so polite in this discussion. Many people on youtube end up insulting each other or cowardly block the other side so as not to have to defend their position.
claudbase 5 days ago
Civility's more fun!
Sounds like your an "atheist" of the agnostic variety - you don't have belief in God. You're not a classic atheist who asserts the position: "There is no God."
If this is the case, then you don't HAVE a position to defend (with regard to God's existence). You've only asserted something about yourself (that you don't believe in God) - You've made no substantive claims about the world outside of your head.
And I agree with your assertion - you don't have belief.
Zangomatic 5 days ago
@claudbase And it does no good to redefine Christian faith in any other way than the way it is defined in scripture. Faith is truly based on knowledge, but it is more than that once it comes full circle because knowledge, knowing, is a reward of faith. Faith itself is in itself evidence, evidence of things unseen.
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@claudbase While faith is "based" on knowledge, faith is not in "acting" on knowledge. It takes little faith to act on something you know. Faith is acting on what one "believes" to be true and if that thing really is true, then faith is rewarded. Believe in Christ, and your faith can reward you with eternal life. Faith is putting your trust in some one or something.
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
"Free-choice" is a common misconception, among the Christian community. Really, it's just an ignorant choice of words, more than anything. Excluding the billions born into wrong cultures and being damned to eternal hell for ignorance of revelation; let's just speak of "free-choice" which, my theistic counterparts, is an illusion. =)
Free-choice, would be: "Do what you like." But no, what you have is: "Do as I say. Or else." That, my friends, is not "choice." That, is an "ultimatum." =D
TheLegendOfRandy 1 week ago
Thanks for your thoughts!
Since you reject the "common misconception" of free choice. What, in your view, is the proper conception?
re: "That's not choice. That's an ultimatum." An ultimatum is a KIND of choice - in which one option entails severe consequences, as in: "You may take this life-saving pill or die from your terminal disease" or "Pull your ripcord before you hit the ground or perish."
It's not the choice one WANTS, perhaps. But it IS a choice.
Zangomatic 1 week ago
“Let us make man in our image" so Adam/Eve wasnt stupid.
"the tree was desirable to look upon" it looked good because of what it meant.
Genesis 3:2 she knew she wasnt supposed to take what was not hers.
Genesis 3:4 satan basicaly said you go by your own rules. you can be a god to govern yourself.
God knew what they did and now humans rule themselves. and as you can see... man doing an "awsome" job...
DecentExposureMedia 2 weeks ago in playlist More videos from Zangomatic
First. Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of right and wrong since God did not teach them that. They did not know that eating from the tree was bad.
Secondly, Free will is a joke. You have the option of choosing between what God wants and eternal torture in Hell. How is this a choice? It's like a robber saying: "Your money or your life!" There is no true choice to begin with.
Thirdly, heaven is free from suffering so GOD CAN CREATE SUCH A PLACE
mansanraps 2 weeks ago
@mansanraps - Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
re: "God can create such a place [free from suffering]" Yes, agreed. He has! And presented with the choice of entering or not entering such a place - which do you choose?
re: "Free will is a joke" - The choice is presented to us AFTER sin and evil infested our race. Without the choice being offered, we have no hope whatsoever.
Like a patient with a terminal disease being offered a life-saving pill - his predicament is bad. The choice is not.
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic
I'd choose whatever isn't eternal torture =) So I fail to see where the free will is.
Also, 80% of us Earthlings arn't Christians, so why would God set up the world in such a way that most of us will fail to meet his demands? Even in the bible he says that only a few will go to heaven.
I like your anology, but in this case god created us sick, indeed he has created all of our actual diseases.
What hopes do poor africans have of hearing the good word?
Have a nice day^^
mansanraps 2 weeks ago
@mansanraps - I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
100% of us do not meet his demands (perfection). Heaven cannot be earned - it's a gift.
Receiving Christ, however, requires acknowledging one's NEED for him. Our pride gets in the way.
re: Free will. Although it's foolish to freely choose to NOT take advantage of God's gift, most people prefer to "reign in hell than serve in heaven". Yes, the choice is simple and straightforward - but it is clearly a CHOICE.
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
re: "god created us sick" - reference?
God created us "very good" - Gen 1:31. Our nature includes free moral agency. Despite the risk entailed, Freedom is good!
You enjoy the freedom to drive a car. The risk: you could, in a fit of rage, plow your car head on into another. Society is aware of this risk, yet still allows us this freedom. It's worth it.
Shadow is a lack of light. Evil, a lack of good. Sickness, a lack of health. God didn't create evil and suffering. He allows it.
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic God created us the way we are, so if there are sinners and sinning it means that God create us that way. Now, he demands from us that we do not sin, so he created us "sick" commanding us to be "well"
re:Shadow is a lack of light. Evil, a lack of good. Sickness, a lack of health. God didn't create evil and suffering. He allows it.
This makes more since, but mainly because it sounds less then Christianity and more like Law of attraction :)
mansanraps 1 week ago
@Zangomatic Thank you =)
Than this begs the question, why does the perfect creator not creat perfect beings?
Also, why does God not care about the people in China, India, Japan and Africa finding him and being saved?
Furthermore, for it to be fair god should make sure that all humans have the exact same understanding and chances of recieving his message
mansanraps 2 weeks ago
@mansanraps
re:"why does the perfect creator not creat perfect beings?" He did. Free moral agency was part of their perfect nature.
re: "Why does God not care about people in China, etc?" He does. He died for them. In fact, China, India, and Africa are currently hotbeds of Christian growth.
re: "to be fair god should make sure that all humans have the exact same ... chances." Excellent topic! Good book: "What About Those Who Have Never Heard?" by IVP.
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic re: Free moral agency was part of their perfect nature.
Then why do they not able to make perfect decisions then?
re:China, India, and Africa are currently hotbeds of Christian growth.
2000 years since Jesus and still 80% will end up in hell, is this the best an omnipotent god can do?
Thanks for the tip, I've read parts of it =) If that apologetic is true, all that is needed for heaven is being good, cutting out the Christianity/Jesus middle men :)
mansanraps 1 week ago
re: "why do they not able to make perfect decisions then?" They WERE able to make good decisions - and they WERE able to make bad decisions. This is free moral agency.
re: "omnipotent" - This means his power is not limited. It does NOT mean he can do logically absurd "tasks" like: make a married bachelor. Another logically absurd task is: force free moral agents to obey. If they are forced, they are not free. If they are not forced, they will disobey some of the time.
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic
re:Another logically absurd task is: force free moral agents to obey.
Yet, he commands us to. Not only that, he bribes us with eternal bliss if we do as he wants. Furthermore he also threatens us with eternal punishment if we don't obey. But hey, we're free to choose whatever we want as long as it's the thing he wants us to choose.
The second there are divine and compelling consequences, there is no longer any true free will my friend :) Only what God wants or eternalt torture
mansanraps 1 week ago
You said "there is no longer any true free will" and then you give the two options that can be chosen (heaven or hell).
Lots of people choose to say "NO" to God. Lots choose "YES". It seems apparent to me that A) there IS a choice (as you mentioned) between bliss and agony... and B) that choice is a FREE CHOICE. We both know people who have freely chosen "NO", and people who have freely chosen "YES".
What do you mean when you say there is NO choice and we are NOT free to choose?
Thanks.
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic
If all were equally informed of the A, God is real, B Hell is real, nobody would knowingly choose that option. Nobody would choose hell out will, if they had full knowledge of it and knew it to be true. Now God does not bother to convince people about this. At best its just a twisted game for him to see who makes it and who he'll get to fry. Such a god doesn't make any sense at all
mansanraps 1 week ago
"such a god doesn't make any sense..." Agreed.
So, mansanraps, what DOES make sense to you? No God? A different god?
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic
Well, I do not in any way reject the concept of there being forces in the universe that are completely beyond our ability to comprehend or imagine. I do however find it extremely improbable that this force is named Yahweh, appeared in bronze age Palestine and told the local illiterade desert tribes what foods they may not eat, whom they may or may not have sex with and orderd them to kill all first born babies in Egypt. The complete lack of evidence is the reason I can't believe it
mansanraps 1 week ago
Sounds like you're an agnostic (aka "agnostic atheist"). Yes?
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic
Yes I think that is an appropriate label. I find Yahweh, Zeus and Allah to all be equally improbable. I can, however, never disprove the existance of any of them. So I am an agnostic atheist in theory, but a strong atheist in practice I guess, since I live my life as if no deity of that kind exists.
And what about you? :)
mansanraps 1 week ago
You're agnostic about God's existence, yet you live "as if no deity exists". By your own admission, then, your life is inconsistent with your worldview. Does this ever bother you?
I'm a theist because God's existence seems more plausible than his non-existence. I'm a Christian, in particular, because Jesus' claim to be God was verified by his resurrection, Jesus' perfect life, and Jesus' fulfillment of prophecies made hundreds of years before he was born.
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic
I am only agnostic in the sense that I can't disprove any God's existance, just like you can't disprove Allah or Shiva. I'm also agnostic about the world existing tomorrow, I can't prove it, but see no valid reason to doubt it either =)
Thanks for sharing =)
I see. With all due respect, what proof do you have that all wasn't simply made up? Do you see any real world evidence that supports the claims of the Bible and the Bible only?
mansanraps 1 week ago
We don't require "PROOF" of anything (except maybe math?).
We observe, weigh evidence, respond emotionally, react personally, then we decide which idea is MOST PLAUSIBLE. I can't prove that this chair will support me - but I don't require proof. "This chair will hold my weight" seems more plausible than its negation. So I sit down accordingly.
"The NT documents are historically reliable" and "God exists" are, in my view, more plausible than their negations. So I seek to live accordingly.
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic
You have proof, chairs have supported you an others billions of times and few have ever failed. That is solid empirical evidence which can also be confirmed by physical theories.
The census of Quirinius in the Gospel of Luke is false, There are no external reports of Resurrection of the Dead Saints. Two of the gospel writers says nothing of the virgin birth, stating Joseph as Jesus true father etc. Also, historical facts do not prove anything since it's still just fiction :)
mansanraps 1 week ago
@mansanraps re: "historical facts do not prove anything" Certainly each of us must determine what we think is plausible. Historical facts, in my view, lend plausibility to the Christian worldview.
So if something is NOT verified by "solid empirical evidence" and "physical theories" it cannot be true?
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic
re:So if something is NOT verified(....)it cannot be true?
The exodus has been completely disproved, all the sciences have disproved the flood myth. There is no proof of any of the miracles and no proof of Yahweh's existance, creationism has been disproved, as has the geocentric universe.
Yes, things can be true without evdence, but in this case there are tons of opposing evidence. The earth is no a flat circle as the Bible claims, nor ar bats birds. How do you deal with that?
mansanraps 1 week ago
If you sincerely WANTED TO UNDERSTAND the biblical text, you'd dig more deeply.
None of the concerns you've mentioned are new or unresolvable. Example: "Bible claims earth is flat circle." When Isaiah says "The Lord sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" (40:22), he's using a visual literary device (like when you say "The sun 'rose'"). Context: God is greater than or above his creation.
Zangomatic 1 week ago
@Zangomatic re:None of the concerns you've mentioned are new or unresolvable.
Indeed, they've all been debunked. I've read many passages and it's clear that they know nothing about astronomy, and how could they. Bats being birds, the flood, the creation myth and the exodus have all been disproved.Or do you beg to differ?
What is the main reason, you think, that no outside sources confirms these claims? It's either a conspiracy over all the sciences throgh time, or the bible is just plain wrong
mansanraps 1 week ago
@Zangomatic Ever consider that you might be wrong and some other religion might be the true one? The only way you have to judge which one is true is by faith, the same faith that all other religions followers use to justify their own belief (that by the way contradict yours). Mutually exclusive beliefs cannot all be true. So how can you honestly know that you are right?
claudbase 6 days ago
@claudbase And all your talk about being from other countries: None of that means anything - it has no baring on the truth of God's Word. If I had the wrong faith, how would that make the Gospel of Christ different, or wrong? It would just make me wrong.
Look - God isn't at war with you, so don't war against God. His war is with Satan, the prize: your soul. Don't side with...
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
@claudbase ...Satan who hates you; side with God who loves you. Satan already has your soul and God wants to save you from that captivity, only IF you want Him to. There are three votes being cast for your soul, Satan's, God's and yours. You hold the tie-breaking vote. It's called free will. Choose wisely. Repent (change your mind) believe (put your trust, your faith) in Jesus.
4GodSoLoves 6 days ago
"Ever consider that you might be wrong?" - Excellent question! Yes, this is so incredibly important. Logically, I COULD BE DEAD WRONG. It could be that Islam presents an accurate picture of reality...or perhaps atheists have it right.
Faith, however, is not a way of knowing something. Faith is a RESPONSE to that which is known. For example, I have knowledge that a particular elevator is safe. But if I refuse to step into it, I lack faith. If I had faith, I'd respond by using the elevator.
Zangomatic 6 days ago
@Zangomatic But then you do understand that faith is not a way of knowing something. This is a major point that many atheists are trying to put in the head of some way too convinced theist. Faith sometime leads to an absurd certainty about unanswerable questions. This sometime leads some people to impose their views or even kills other humans, all in the name of "God" (and the worst is that they feel totally justified for their actions: God told them what they should do!)
claudbase 6 days ago
Yes. Faith is based on knowledge. So, although I admire the writings of Mark Twain, I'd have to disagree with his view that "Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
re: "impose their views or even kills other humans" - Yes, the desire to control and harm one another seems to be part of human nature. Even atheists have been known to join in every now and then (Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, Lenin, Than Shwe, Kim Jong Il, Jim Jones, Mussolini...).
We all have the capacity to do evil.
Zangomatic 6 days ago
@Zangomatic Re:What do you mean when you say there is NO choice and we are NOT free to choose?
Sorry for not clarifying more. People say no due to a complete lack of verifyable, testable, falsifiable empirical evidence. It's the same reasons for you not Beliving in Allah, Ra, Mithra, Shiva, Poseidon or Yahweh. Extraordinary claims demand equally extraodrinary evidence. If there was sufficient proof of Yahweh, I too would be a believer, or rather a knower :)
mansanraps 1 week ago
@mansanraps - re: "people say no due to ... lack of ... evidence."
If people were purely intellectual machines, I'd agree with you. But this doesn't strike me as consistent with human nature. We also have emotions and a will.
Additionally, the idea of God is LOADED with personal implications for how I live my life. I can be indifferent about whether Pluto is a planet or not. But the question of whether my Creator exists, loves me, and calls me to account - this is a different sort of question.
Zangomatic 1 week ago
Comment removed
DecentExposureMedia 2 weeks ago in playlist More videos from Zangomatic
@mansanraps "They did not know that eating from the tree was bad' so if a child (they were not kids, they were full grown perfect adults) steals from a parent for the first time you dont discipline them because they didn't know. (hell is a myth. adam eve and all are just dead) "Free will is a joke" Go drive your car and go anywhere. if you go over the speed limit you broke a law. you are FREE to drive the car 120 in a 60 but not the RIGHT to do so. Therefore you get in trouble.
DecentExposureMedia 2 weeks ago in playlist More videos from Zangomatic
@DecentExposureMedia
God had deliberately not given them the kowledge to know right from wrong. That knowledge could only be gained from eating the fruit, so they could not tell good from evil.
Hell is not a myth but a real place according to the bible.
Your anology is flawed. The options are: Follow Gods rules or burn in hell, which would be like, "Cars going past 60mph will be blown up, but you are by all means free to do so"
mansanraps 2 weeks ago
@mansanraps re: "Hell is not a myth" - Agreed. Hell is quite real according to the NT. Those who suggest that Jesus/NT teach otherwise are performing impressive text twisting to create a happy ending.
re: knowledge of good and evil. This is a really good topic! If Adam DIDN'T know it was wrong to eat, how could he be held responsible? But If he DID know it was wrong, then he ALREADY had knowledge of good and evil.
Does 'knowledge' mean "experiential" versus "intellectual"? Dunno. Good point!
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Zangomatic Sorry, missed this one :)
re:Those who suggest that Jesus/NT teach otherwise are performing impressive text twisting to create a happy ending.
Yeah I agree
re: Does 'knowledge' mean "experiential" versus "intellectual"? Dunno. Good point!
I always found this part of the Bible very interesting. It seems like at least God knew that it would happen since he created him curious but unaware of right and wrong :)
mansanraps 1 week ago
"God is good" - how can something that doesent exist outside the human fantasy be good?
Blind belief, the cancer of humanity.
1TtidnaB 2 weeks ago
@1TtidnaB - Thanks for the comment.
re: "how can something that doesent exist outside the human fantasy be good?" Excellent point. Something that does NOT exist cannot be either good OR bad.
re: "Blind belief" Which blind belief, in particular, are you commenting on? The belief that God does not exist? Or something else?
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic Blind belief in general, really. Belief in something that not only have no basis in reality, but also contradicts what we know about reality.
Or in other words: The belief that something that doesent exist outside the human fantasy are the objective reality.
This video/logic is flawed in so many ways, blind belief in gods - blind belief in a free will - and the belief that "good" and "evil" exists outside of subjective human values.
1TtidnaB 2 weeks ago
@1TtidnaB - I share your disdain for blind belief.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're suggesting that the belief in God is blind. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support this belief of yours?
Or is it a blind belief?
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic I cant prove a negative, besides - the burden of proof lies on the one making the claims. There is nothing in reality that indicates that gods exist - therefore; religious belief is perfectly blind.
You say your god exist, but you have nothing but blind faith to support that claim. I say your god doesent exist, because there exist no valid reason to believe so. Just like with the easter bunny and Odin.
1TtidnaB 2 weeks ago
@1TtidnaB re: "Burden of proof lies on the one making the claims."
Yes. And you're the one making the claim that belief in God is blind. So apparently the burden of proof lies with you on this one.
(Also, by way of clarification, the video says nothing about "gods". The God referred to in the video is "the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe" (webster) not a finite 'god'.)
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic Are you really this unintelligent?
.
You say: God exist
I say: Do you have proof?
You say: no.
I say: Then your belief is blind.
You say: Prove it.
.
Until there exist proof of your god, your belief is blind, fact. The same goes for the other few million gods and fantasymade religious and nonreligious nonexisting phenomenons. I dont have to prove that your belief is blind, because its automatically blind because of the total lack of evidence. Maybe you are psycotic?
1TtidnaB 2 weeks ago
@1TtidnaB re: "Are you really this unintelligent?" Perhaps! There's gobs of things I don't understand.
For example, I don't understand why you think I said I have no proof. I don't understand why you suggest that I'm "psycotic" because of my belief in God (this would mean 95% of humanity is also "psycotic").
I don't understand why, after admitting you can't prove a negative (like, "God does not exist") you seem to adopt this position.
Perhaps you can dispel some of my ignorance?
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic We both know you do not have a shred of proof, millions desperately seeks proof, yet none exist - neither for your god or any of the millions of other gods.
.
You have no proof all of the other gods doesent exist, yet you claim so - does that make you a blind believer? No, you simply do not believe in other gods. What makes you a blind believer is your blind belief in your god. You blindly believe in a reality that doesent exist outside your fantasy.
1TtidnaB 2 weeks ago
@1TtidnaB.
You said "you can't prove a negative".
Yet you believe a negative to be true (God does not exist).
Thus, you BELIEVE without even the POSSIBILITY of proof. Yet you demand proof from me.
re: "you don't believe in other gods". Where did you get this?
So are you atheistic (No God)? Or merely agnostic "atheist" (without belief in God)?
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic A negative doesent exist, so I dont believe in it. You do, blindly. I have nothing to prove, because I'm not claiming that something that doesent exist - do exist. I am claiming that something that doesent exist - doesent exist, and the evidence (lack of) support me.
I have a open mind. Present evidence and I am open for anything, unlike you - uncritically and blindly believing in old myths.
I'm gnostic antitheist, antideist, atheist, antireligious, nonreligious, ect
1TtidnaB 2 weeks ago
@1TtidnaB - Thanks for your open-minded response.
Why assume that I'm uncritical in my thinking - and blind in my belief? Because I disagree with you? (Pascal, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton also disagreed with your position.)
Faith isn't a way of knowing; rather, faith is trusting what I have come to know as true. I don't know God exists by faith. I know God exists the way I know other things are true. I evaluate the evidence and choose the most reasonable explanation.
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
Re: “evidence"
Why require evidence for MY position but not for yours? I'd find that approach to dialogue unsatisfying. Evidence matters to you? Yet you hold a position for which you cannot have evidence. Explain?
Evidence - for what it's worth:
The universe had a beginning – requires a Cause (cannot cause itself).
Biological information exists – but only a mind can generate information.
Absolute moral law exists – an absolute moral law giver must exist.
Any open minded thoughts?
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
@Zangomatic You say the same unintelligent puke that have been torn to shreds millions of times, you blindly believe - and you are not able able to see your own psycosis.
Absolute moral law" no.
Only a mind can generate information, no.
The universe had a beginning - maybe, we dont know for sure - well exept you and all other religious people from the over 130000 different religious faiths. Is it so terrible to admit that you have nothing but faith?
1TtidnaB 2 weeks ago
Yes, God is good:Witches, kill them. Homosexuals, kill them.fortunetellers, kill them. those who don`t listen to priests, kill them. those hitting their dad, kill them. those who curse their parents, kill them, adulterers, kill them. fornicators, kill them. people who believe in other religions, kill them. non-believers,kill them. fals prohets ,kill them. blasphemers, kill them. those who work on the Sabbath, kill them. This is the word of god. Alleluiah.
ndzoko 2 weeks ago
@ndzoko Thanks for your thoughtful and unique comment. You and I both have some strong convictions about God.
Zangomatic 2 weeks ago
AWESOME VIDEO!!
blessedmamaof10 3 weeks ago
God IS Good, and God CAN do anything!!!!!!!!
AwesomenessPrime427 3 weeks ago
@AwesomenessPrime427 - Thanks for the enthusiastic comment!
Yes - God is good.
But, no - and fortunately for us - God cannot do anything (It is impossible for God to lie Heb. 6:18.)
You and I can he learn, improve, grow, commit suicide, make mistakes, commit evil, decompose, break a promise, get sick, wonder about the future...and so on. God cannot.
These "limitations" don't mean God is weak in any sense; to the contrary, they describe his infinite power, wisdom, and goodness.
Zangomatic 3 weeks ago 2
cool video i don't think god is real but i like the video and it does explore that question very well
blue0magic 4 weeks ago
@blue0magic - Thanks for the kind comment. It's cool that you can like a video you disagree with!
re: "I don't think god(sic) is real" I believe everyone is entitled to his/her own view. What's yours?
Are we random molecular accidents existing in a universe that caused itself, fine-tuned itself, spontaneously generated life forms with self-aware minds that are walking around under the crazy illusion that our lives have objective meaning, value, and purpose?
Zangomatic 4 weeks ago
All-Powerful = Can do anything that is LOGICALLY possible? That would mean: God is less powerful then logic ald causality. But isn't He the Creator of logic and causality, because He's the Creator of anything?
Thus: All-Powewrful = Can do anything, even logically INPOSSIBLE paradox things?
Hattakiri 1 month ago
@Hattakiri - Thank you for your thoughtful comment/question.
re: "Isn't [God] the creator of logic...?" - Logic is a description of how God thinks. Like 'truth' or 'goodness', its source is found in God's nature. God, and therefore logic, weren't created - they had no beginning.
God cannot: cease to exist, lie, act immorally, learn, be confused, or improve. But these "inabilities" don't represent any lack of power. Hence, "God is all-powerful" holds, even though God cannot do some things.
Zangomatic 1 month ago
@Zangomatic The question is: What are God's properties? Thinking? Goodness? Infinit knowledge? Or the straight opposite? Are we even able to know and name them? Taoism says, we will have bad chances...
"Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself.
Even the finest name is insufficient to define it.
Without words, the Tao can be experienced,
and without a name, it can be known..."
Hattakiri 1 month ago
I agree - the important question is: "If God exists, what is God like? Is he knowable?"
It seems that if God is, in fact, God - then he is infinitely higher than us. Is it possible that God would desire for us to know him in some small way? We could never fully COMPREHEND God, but might we APPREHEND some aspects of God?
A child standing on the shore understands the ocean is salty, watery, and big. So even though her understanding is extremely limited, her understanding is true.
Zangomatic 1 month ago
@Zangomatic A child on the shore can touch the ocean and drink a little bit. Can we do something similar with God? I live, I think, I feel - because of God, or because of physical and biological laws? Or because of those laws, which exist because of God? Or: Is God those laws?
That's why there is the Apophatic (or Negative) Theology, trying to name anything which God is not. Taoism is a little bit like that.
Ultimately it all comes down to the question: Why is there something and not nothing?
Hattakiri 1 month ago
@Hattakiri - Good questions!
Zangomatic 1 month ago
@Zangomatic To me, it seems a contradiction to God's character for there to exist something that it didn't create (ex. logic). Logic is not a mere description, it is a mode of mental operation used to relate one's knowledge to new knowledge and physical observations. It is a method for solving problems and discovering truth, not for calculating only what you already know, and without a need for this "learning", there really seems to be no need for god to retain logic at all.
oathkeeper27 4 weeks ago
I will give you a choice to obey me or not to obey me, but if you don't, I will punish in you in hell for all eternity, that sounds fair to me
Merveilleux202 1 month ago
@Merveilleux202 - Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
re: "Obey me or ... I will punish you" - Parents take this approach to parenting. This is the policy of the government, the army, most businesses and, come to think of it, every professor I've ever had enacted the same policy.
Is punishment for disobedience to authority wrong?
Or is rebellion against an infinitely high authority not a big enough deal to merit severe punishment?
Zangomatic 1 month ago
@Zangomatic Is burning and torturing your own child for eternity for not beliveing in magic, fair ? I would understand if God simple wouldn't let rebellious people to heaven, but just left earth to those who won't obey. but if you realy read the whole bible you can't ague that god is all good and forgiving, can you now. I would recoment you to watch few of NonStampCollector's videos, and you'll see how ridiculous does the bible sound to us atheists
Merveilleux202 1 month ago
@Merveilleux202 re: "Is burning and torturing your own child for eternity for not beliveing in magic, fair ?" No.
re: "You can't argue that God is all good..." I can - just as you can argue that he's not.
re: "how ridiculous the bible sounds to us atheists". It seems reasonable to me that the Bible sounds ridiculous to someone who is convinced the main character doesn't exist.
And can you imagine how silly atheist comments sound to theists?
Zangomatic 1 month ago
@Merveilleux202 That's a man made tradition and an absolute lie about how God is. It's not as pathetic as "Obey me or else!" like modern Christianity has made it. It's as simple as, "Stop trying to obey those stupid rules as an attempt to impress me because I'm already impressed with you. So just accept that you're accepted by me."
That's it. The issue is not in people obeying rules or not, it's in thinking that their own efforts are what impress God. Christians have it wrong.
SaintsnotSinners 1 month ago
@SaintsnotSinners but is he still going to send every man woman and children to eternal suffer because they didn't belive in the right god, or god at all like me.
Merveilleux202 1 month ago
@Merveilleux202 I wouldn't believe in God either based on the bullshit Christians say about Him. So I don't blame you, buddy. Jesus said, "Don't believe my message unless I show you that I am who I say I am by doing miracles." So I respect atheists because they don't just blindly follow some guy on stage like many Christians. Jesus gave people permission to not believe unless they were shown proof. He told the church to give people proof. But instead they spiritualize the lack of it.
SaintsnotSinners 1 month ago
re: "Jesus gave people permission to not believe..." and "don't believe my message unless..." and "He told the church to give people proof" Citation?
re: "the b.s. that Christians say about God" - Agreed. People say crazy things (see above).
What instance of b.s. in particular gets your dander up?
Zangomatic 1 month ago
@Zangomatic "Citation?" - John 10:37. "Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father." The context is Him saying He is God's son and people getting offended at such a claim. So He said, "Okay, don't believe my claim to be God's son unless I do what a son of God can do." The "works" He is referring to is miracles.
He told His church to do what He did in Matt. 10:8-9, Matt. 28:19-20, John 20:21, etc.
SaintsnotSinners 1 month ago
re: John 10:37 - Yes - Jesus' miracles made his claim to be God's son undeniable. And if I were to claim to be the Son of God, I would need to perform some spectacular miracles to back that up. But Christians aren't making such a claim; rather, we're pointing to Jesus who DID make that claim.
Are you saying that if I don't heal somebody, or turn water into wine, then it's OK for people to NOT believe me when I tell them about Jesus and his grace?
Zangomatic 1 month ago
Matt.10:8-9 (which talks about healing the sick, raising the dead...) was directed towards the 12 apostles.
Matthew 28 - "Go make disciples" - The great commission says nothing about "perform miracles or people don't need to believe your message."
John 20:21 - "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you" - Does this say "you must perform miracles" to you?
Seems like in the NT lots of folks become believers by merely hearing the gospel spoken to them.
Zangomatic 1 month ago