High-Technology M113 Gavins: Real Future Combat System

[sakpan39]

I really like the concept of a compact, light vehlicle with superb mobility, good firepower and decent armor. There is an old platform outthere even more suitable in my humble opinion than the M 113. It's the Steyr 4K 7FA austrian apc.

Room for 8 troops, hull height only 1.69 if I remember well, protection against 20mm at the front. Something in this shape and size with the right improvements would be perfect.

[dynmicpara]

@sakpan39 There are not THOUSANDS of Steyr 4K 7FA APCs available like M113 Gavins. The Gavin is only 72 inches high---1.82 meters. If you want a Gavin 1.69m or less you can mold the chassis "cake" it that way. V-shaping underneath, 30mm autocannon, RPG and ATGM protective "icing" on top. The Gavin is what you make of it. People with welfare recipient mentality don't seem to get this.

[sakpan39]

@dynmicpara Thank you for answering. There's no doubt that the Gavin would offer better value for money and be the obvious choice for the US Armed Forces and others, since there are thousands available. Unfortunately you will only find a few hundred 4K 7FAs in Austria, Greece and Cyprus.

What's your opinion on the new german recoilles autocannon RMK 30? I think it would be a good option for the Gavin.

Sorry for any mistakes, but english isn't my first language.

[dynmicpara]

@sakpan39 Totally agree with you! We just can't seem to get the Germans to share the RMK30 with us. So we advocate the M230 30mm and take the recoil in the mount with hydraulics etc. I wrote a 007 story featuring the RMK 30 "Masquerade" on an aircraft-- jamesbondisforreal dottt com

[SDK2584]

The M113 is a nice machine, very reliable and keep going no matter how much u abuse it(and no matter how bad your driver is...) but it badly need some major up-armoring, so that the crew can survive an ATGM hit and more importantly: a big IED. And i'm not talking about active-protection, although those could be nice as well, but of some good old armor plates and a reinforced v-shaped bottom. The basic chasis is very light so it shouldn't weigh too much with the added armor...

[redreaper2020]

yes. Rubber tracks are SO new.  They've NEVER been used on the M3 half track!

oh, wait... >.>

[bestamerica]

'

hardern steel tracks are better than rubber tracks

[redreaper2020]

OOh, a rubber track...know what else had the same type of tracks? M-3 half track.

This should have been done a long time ago...saves cost on gears, track wear, and weight for the steerijng clutch arrangements.

[usmcdisabledvet]

Although the EFV and F35 (and the like) can bring overwhelming advantage from technology... when the Nukes start hitting on a large scale, the EMP emmissions will render a good chunk of any modern military useless. They fry the electronics. Some of the trucks with heavy gauge wiring will start up and work again, but all the computer chips will be dead. So yes, there is a need for mechanical old school thought. I concur with posters that the m113 > stryker.

[Baphamatt]

Generals grew up in the 70s and 80s they remember shit batteries unreliable electronics technology is a mystery to old schoolers

[StiviGun1]

OK, so why was the Stryker selected over this? It seems to me that this vehicle is better and it could perfectly accommodate any weapon system that the Stryker accommodates.

[dynmicpara]

@StiviGun1 CORRUPTION. Greed and ego. Shinseki's failed Stryker brigades were to squeeze max cash from Congress and hide fact Army should have organized M113 Gavins into light infantry brigades years ago. LIBCTs need High Technology Gavins now.

[StiviGun1]

@dynmicpara Is there any chance that this could be remedied? Is it possible 2 go back to the Gavins after the Stryker has already been selected?

[dynmicpara]

@StiviGun1 YES. Strykers are too heavy and cannot airdrop by C-130s or be flown by CH-47s and move x-country through closed terrain that Army LIGHT INFANTRY brigade combat teams need.

[StiviGun1]

@dynmicpara Yeah, I know this and you know this. But you have to convince the Congress that this is the way to go, too. And this can be pretty tough. You really have to show that the Gavin is far more better than Stryker. And you have to use pretty solid arguments to persuade them. The price tag is always the most convincing argument to the congress.

[StiviGun1]

@dynmicpara The M113 can be airlifted and transported by the CH-47 helicopter? Because someone told me it can't.

[dynmicpara]

@StiviGun1 Yes, go to our air-mech-strike web site and see pictures of it. We discuss it in detail in our book.

[ItsTheMace]

does it come with XMS radio? or a DVD player at least?

[dynmicpara]

@ItsTheMace It should have vehicle AC outlets to play such devices.

[dynmicpara]

@arnoldlwlee Prototype so far, nothing holding us back to do this for Light IBCTs.

[citymontreal]

they show the battery location for future enemies

[durchdiemitte]

nice

the idea isn't new even WW2 tanks were powered like that. But it doesn't worked so good.

Next gen tanks will work like this

[ww2footage]

M113 is far better APC than Stryker ,20 ton wheeled APC is nonsense, it is good may be for "1st class highway" warfare not for real war based on off road maneuver

[torak101]

This is why the 113 design is superior to the styker. Its a low silhouette box with tracks rather then wheels.

You can attach anything to it. Because it's tracked it can be heavier and has true all terrain capabilities.

That styker is just an armored bus. I see them everyday and they tip over constantly on rough terrain. Without a road performance is seriously degraded

It was stupid to get away from tracks

[hotpocketpoison]

@torak101 i think that if they put tracks on a stryker they could shorten it and improve all terrain capabilities. the thing that makes the stryker superior is the amount of firepower it can bring to a fight(MGS) in a fast lightweight package

[dynmicpara]

@hotpocketpoison Why start with a Stryker thin steel hull and re-invent a tracked light tank when we already have superior M113 Gavin tracked vehicles that are automotively perfected? Are we that desperate to hide weak egos that we'd try to put tracks on Stryker trucks rather than admit we made a mistake? Let's correct the mistake with M113 Gavin tracks before it becomes a systemic failure. Before honor there must be humility.

[redreaper2020]

@dynmicpara wouldn't all those computers be a weakness? I mean, how long until Private Pyle picks up a virus from watching porn while on patrol? :V

[Omega3chimp]

killing while saving the planet.

[Omega3chimp]

Killing while saving the planet,Ha

[digisage57]

ok it looks like the nlos cannon with out the gun on it and made up of a m113 ok what are we doing here we have this prototype of a 105 shelf paprelled howlitzer with on stiriker then we got this nlos which isnt replaceing the plandin im confused

[dynmicpara]

Latest scam from HQDA is to v-hull an even heavier FCS, ehh GCV which will be just as unaffordable in 10 years as it is now. Go figure.

[haardbard]

right

[CommonCents30]

Wow. Taking the Deisel out frees up alot of room in the front. 1:10 but where are the troop seats on the left side? It seems like its gutted of many combat requirements that take up alot of room. Id like to see with all the fixings, I.E. NBC systems, Radio, Ammo etc. Still, This system appears to be a pretty outstanding upgrade though.

[dynmicpara]

Thanks be to FMC/UDLP/BAE/whatever they are calling themselves this week to fail to present the HED demonstrator in tactical configuration

[ihateforigners]

Good idea

[c0wb0ypil0t]

Dude , that isn't a combat system , but a limousine hh xD

[baileytom78]

Damn I love this thing what a toy

[tardoproto]

Seems to sum up a whole lot of good ideas, but how would those tracks react to flames? How long would they last under fire? I am not only thinking about flamers, but molotov cocktails, burning debris and so on...

[dynmicpara]

We need to start using band tracks so we can justify some R&D to make fireproof kevlar ones etc.

[tardoproto]

Good point.

[Mifodiy35]

Lol it looks more like armored limo ,not an APC .

[ECWUSA1995]

Very cool

[alikill]

the low internal noise is a welcome change.

[Goldrag]

how repair this kanterpillar?

[bellinivernon]

Exelente ! ;gracias ,desde buenos aires.

[zerstorer335]

Damn, that interior makes it look like a luxury car. Good on the eyes, but you know a soldier's gear is going to tear up those nice looking driver / commander seats.

[worldwidevitamin]

Eventually... Fuels are obsolete, electric motors are more efficient, powerful, silent, and smoother. Electric motors have very little maintenance. Simplify the entire fleet by doing the same thing. A fully loaded 270 ton train can go 400 miles on a gallon of fuel. Thanks to an electricity generator. It would extend the range of all of our current vehicles.

[DEFORCER]

we should use fossil fuels for our military equipment only.

[Saviliana]

That means even a kid can drive these with a gameboy!

Hell!

[SH0TTYMAD]

Hi Dynamic para, where did you get this video? do you have other info where is this new gavin gonna be use in army?

[dynmicpara]

Video comes from BAE (formerly UDLP, before that FMC); makers of the M113 Gavin...

[Armyman1966]

Amen BoarHawg, I was 19D too and have exactly the same opinion. M113 could disappear into a woodline and you could actually navigate through a forest, can't do that in an M3. That Bushmaster is nice, but I'll take stealth and a radio over it anyday.

[dennisd0tc0m]

Im surprised that no mention was made of it's best feature, all electric quiet mode.

that will certainly make a tactical difference. general dynamics is working on 4 and 6 wheel hmmv's also.

[dynmicpara]

Correct. UDLP was trying to get some solar action going that is not necessary nor wise to compromise camouflage to get. Look at our Barracuda tank camouflage video!

[dynmicpara]

Suspension has been improved, yes. There are even better suspensions available that will reduce friction and heat by 50%.

[dynmicpara]

BoarHawg writes:

"I was a 19D Scout for 11 years, the first six on 113s, then the piece of s**t Brads. For Scouts, it couldn't get worse than the Bradley....too big, too heavy, too loud, too complex, and too slow to keep up with the M1s it's supposed to support. A 113A3 runs rings around it, the only advantage a Brad has is firepower, but if you're a bigger target than a tank without the armor to take hits like a tank, a Brad's firepower doesn't mean a thing."

[CaptainAmerica322]

saw youre vid about how dumb the marines are.haaha. Im joinig the marines, but only in preperation to join the army to go to hell(ranger school) haha.

[Zobor111]

Strykers are easy to stop with a molotov cocktail to the tires. Tracks have their area, as well as wheeled IFVs. M-113 are better than HMMVVs for Iraq. I'd rather be in a 113.

[asianiinvasion]

it looks suspiciosly cozy inside:0

[Todd8Todd8Todd]

m113s are so cool.

[tld5500]

I think the track is a weakness. If an enemy can

break the track in two, or damage the drive wheel, it is a sitting duck. I am trying to develop a system of pads that only move in a banana/elliptical orbit, in a sequence 90 or 120 degrees out of phase with each other, to provide linear locomotion. The pads will have more contact with the surface because the arc is flattened in one direction. Unfortunately, it is simpler than it sounds.

[dynmicpara]

Tracks are far more sturdier than air-filled rubber tires; but good luck on your pad-drive system. Progress is welcome; regress to wheels is not.

[tld5500]

Tracked vehicles ride on wheels. The road wheels just are inside an endlessly revolving track. The drive sprocket is a wheel too. Tracks can be thrown, and need to have tension. Wheels are only suited to hard flat surfaces. I dont want to use either, I cant describe what I am working on, but I dont want to give away the idea either. Except that I observed a walking motion in a machine I was making. I need a easy to use CAD program.

[dynmicpara]

Right now tracks rolling on SOLID METAL roadwheels are far better for cross-country mobility and protection against enemy attacks that cannot be avoided than air-filled rubber tires that damn you to roads and are easily popped and set on fire. Email me privately if you want to discuss your idea without giving it away.

[TurbineDogSevenFour]

Even better would be these tracks, and having multiple motor in wheel hub road wheels, so you could go all Christie-trackless if necessary. These low slung electric, almost stealthy nex-gen "Gavins" are the way to go for a rapid air-mobile force.

[auto9898]

I like this. Its still transportable by aircraft unlike the stryker with all of it after market addons.

[anzac2404]

I like it! You do realize you'll get troopers that will want to take it home with them LOL. The inside is more like a limo, God what next, internet, pay TV...a mini bar(hint hint) why don't they just bung in a PS3 as well? The M113 is still a good old beast but this, its a crew commanders wet dream come true LOL. Just what you need 4 camping/fishing trips.

[BlacktailFA]

Well, given the versatility of the M113 Gavin's chassis, you could make almost any modification you need.

As for using it for camping, the M113 would be more useful than you might think. Unlike a 4x4, the Gavin will not get stuck in sand, or muddy ruts. Because it is armored and reinforced to survive the shockwaves from nuclear blasts, you could bash away loose obstacles in your path --- it also has a winch strong enough to pull another M113.

So, yeah --- you could drive it into the wilderness.

[TheTBagg]

Now you've got me thinking of trading in my Tahoe.

[i2455]

Looks like a good idea....but, what bothers me is the batteries....thats a lot of acid to fly around if vehicle is hit by a mine or a projectile...how about a turbine for power..they are small light weight compared to a diesel engine and they can be muffled...no to batteries. Alla snackbar.

[dynmicpara]

FYI, Lithium-Ion batteries do not have corrosive battery lead acid. We don't advocate lead-acid batteries to power hybrid military vehicles.

[smeegma]

"Good, but this tank doesn't has an electric armour."

There are plenty of effective armor kitting solutions available that solve that problem. Why do people insist on ignoring this?

It's like griping about a computer without peripherals. Hint: buy the extras to suit the mission?

[dynmicpara]

We are not ignoring advanced armors. The military mind can only handle one-thing-at-a-time. Show too many things at one time they get confused. Miss something and they forget it can be added on so its not an excuse to reject. BAE is presenting a baseline HED vehicle to show MOBILITY aspects not PROTECTION or FIREPOWER so as to focus on it. Armor and weaponry is for later and not precluded just because its not shown.

[daltonagre]

Good, but this tank doesn't has an electric armour.

[BlacktailFA]

That's an aftermarket add-on that you can fit to almost any vehicle.

[zirenton]

I'd prefer the extra hour of checks and maintenance a week, and still maintain an organic ability to shorten, or replace track myself. The support element won't always be there for you.

[zirenton]

I think a lot of end users, would want to be able to patch up their running gear, and get away or complete a mission, rather than waiting for rear echelon support staff to replace their track. T130 track is a pain in the arse. Dual pin types, like diehl require very little maintenance, and also have life of over 5000 miles if looked after.

[dynmicpara]

@zirenton We are switching to the sturdier T150 tracks. Vietnam vet friends of mine got 10, 000 miles on the old tracks in soft ground.

[zirenton]

This looks fabulous. I've spent many hours behind the sticks, and a maintenance free track sounds great, but what happens when you hit an anti personnel mine. Unlike US forces, in a lot of countries, its the crew that maintain and replace track. You can't shorten and reconnect a rubber track. You can't replace 5 pieces of destroyed link, a shock ansorber and road wheel or two, and be back on the move. Does everyone carry a spare track?

[dynmicpara]

@zirenton Once we start using band tracks again, we can quickly fund segmented band track that are repairable. Look at the M3 half-tracks that were segmented.

[3521mtma]

@dynmicpara why lead acid batteries? why not lithium ion? i'm a little unfamiliar with hybrid systems, so i'm asking out of ignorance. another question that comes to mind is if an up armor or specialty kit is installed, will those two 250 horse e-motors be sufficient propulsion? i am intrigued by the potential though.