13H Refutes CCHR: IOD (Chapter 8) Psychiatric Drugs (1/2)

[Mrscientificmethod]

Electro shock treatment is still used now - in fact its use is increasing. So ones choice is between brain surgery or chemical brain damage. You think it is an improvement? How do you come to this conclusion?

[mindnumber9]

the point is this:

when a DRUG (aka "medication", yet still A DRUG) induces MORE problems and does NOT produce HEALTH...

DO NOT TAKE THE DRUG. period.

[M1thotyn]

"We don't have to lobotomize people, we don't have to electroshock people. We can give them this happy little pill"

Did they ever have to do anything somantic to begin with? You should read Robert Whitaker's new book, Anatomy of an Epidemic. BTW, Thorazine is a brand name. The chemical that the drug was created from was originally discovered as a synthetic dye and then later tested on mice and shown to retard movements and create apathy, then was used to quiet crowded mental hospitals.

[13Heathens]

@M1thotyn Oh, hey been a while. "Thor" is horrid. Seen my share of people doing the Thorazine shuffle. You should keep in mind that prior to the introduction of treatments like shock and lobotomies the mentally ill were locked away (for life) in sanitariums, where the public would sometimes tour to see the crazies like zoo exhibits.

medication was a move in a better direction from what came before. Historical context is always an important consideration.

[M1thotyn]

@13Heathens But is it following the same paradigm and are there better evidence based treatments available? I don't disagree that drugs brought a more "humane" substitution to things like Lobomy and ECT, but were they ever needed to begin with? Please read Robert Whitaker's newest book.

[13Heathens]

@M1thotyn "were they ever needed to begin with?"

Absolutely! Prior to the earliest treatments for the more severe conditions people were either left to die on the streets, killed for being suspected of witchcraft/demonic possession.

It's been a long slow process of trying to understand how to deal with such conditions The biggest hurdle is moving beyond the cultural biases which people whose minds work differently have faced over the centuries.

[M1thotyn]

@13Heathens It appears that you believe - based on your statements - that people experiencing extreme states of mind need to be shut down, else they be shut down by society. The brain can be to blame, but what about society? If you read Robert Whitaker's works in which he documents long term studies from our lifetime then you'll see that most people suffering even the most extreme states of mind can be totally cured through empathy and social support. No intrusion on the body necessary.

[13Heathens]

@M1thotyn I've always preferred the Jungian approach to the mind. Cured, in many cases, isn't the best word choice, however I agree that empathy and social support are the best form of treatment .. however our societial view of mental illness is a major problem with that.

I'm not sure where you're statement regarding "people experiencing extreme states" is coming from.. In that case of major psychotic episodes, yes . However, "shut down" ring different from "Should be helped".

[M1thotyn]

@13Heathens I don't want to sound like a jerk, but why don't you debunk Robert Whitaker? The CCHR cherry picks through all the historians and academics but Whitaker's new book nearly hit the top 100 in sales on amazon and has sold over 100,000 printed copies in total across the world. If you are going to debunk anything, step up to the big leagues. Anyone can shoot holes through scientology and the CCHR, but how well can you do against one of the worlds best science writer?

[13Heathens]

@M1thotyn "why don't you debunk Robert Whitaker?"

You've clearly forgotten our previous discussion.. The CCHR, Scientology, and those little Szasz followers are the one's I'm after in this series. I could (and have considered) make a substantial series critical of the mental health industry.

People who have mental difficulties are further stigmatized but the denialism they promote, and their approach buries legitimate criticism under and avalanche of fanatical bullshit.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens Since I am one of those little Szasz followers that you are after.. please could you define the 'denialism' which he promotes. Thanks.

[13Heathens]

@Mrscientificmethod "could you define the 'denialism' which he promotes"

Start with the misnomer 'disease', move on to 'no chemical imbalance', promoting the idea that psychiatric issues don't exist. claims that psychiatry is about controlling (other) peoples minds (as apposed to giving one back control)... I could go on, but really it comes down to the fact he is ultimately promoting (through his lectures) the notion that there's nothing wrong with schizophrenics etc.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens It would appear that you misunderstand his work. Have you ever read one of his books?

[13Heathens]

@Mrscientificmethod "It would appear that you misunderstand his work"

Having refused to give him money (aka buying on of his books), that's entirely possible. However if I were to operate on the assumption that what he presents in lectures and interviews does not reflect his writing I'd have to wonder which more accurately reflects his views.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens I have heard a creationist say the same thing about Dawkins! Well you could always buy one second hand.. try amazon! But ok... I would like to see you quote one (or maybe two) of his views that you disagree with. Just so you can give evidence that you do understand. Thanks.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens Well you might have to read one of his books to understand the context. You remind me of creationists who will not read Christpher Hitchens because.. well he is wrong isn't he? And I will not give him money by buying his books and reading what he has to say. You really are pathetic. 

[13Heathens]

@Mrscientificmethod I recommend making a video sometime, just so you'll get some clue as to how the notification of replies works (poorly) on YouTube..

I've had about enough of your horse shit. pick on, let's play.

[13Heathens]

@13Heathens *pick one* (lovely typo)

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens Yes.... let there be a debate. But you do not want this do you? You have told me this before.... because you will lose. Ok i challenge you. Be prepared because i have science on my side. Your pathetic 'belief' will lose. Yes? You will debate? No of course not..... 

[Mrscientificmethod]

@Mrscientificmethod Because you know.. in any scientific debate... i will slaughter you.... I will own you. that is why you ban those that disagree with you...

[13Heathens]

@Mrscientificmethod "that is why you ban those that disagree with you"

I've been checking through the list of people who I've quarreled with in here. There's only one name I came across that I've banned. There's one other that I may have blocked, but their account is no-longer active. So were you wanting me to dissect one of Szasz's books or do you want to pretend to debate me in comment via ad-hominem?

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens You are a sanctimonious little git. To 'pretend to debate me via ad-hominem' Ha!! What a joke! Your whole set of vids are based around the belief that Hubbard was a 'paranoid schizophrenic' . Therefore case closed! 'ad hominem' ? You do not understand the meaning. And yes... the fact that you do not 'remember' who you have banned I can give you at least 2 names that I have had contact with. You adore being praised by ignorant teens but real debate scares you.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@Mrscientificmethod OK for a debate. Szasz says that talking about 'mental disease' is a metaphorical statement. Therefore a 'mental' 'disease' cannot exist. Your thoughts?

[13Heathens]

@Mrscientificmethod "I can give you at least 2 names that I have had contact with"

Go ahead.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens To quote your own comment...'The few I've blocked are in the minority and fall in one of three categories; Trolls, zealous and unwilling to listen (conspiracy nuts), or showing an unhealthy obsession.'

So ' in the minority' means what? Science panders to the majority? Do not think so.

So.. 'zealous and unwilling to listen' Or maybe the very knowlegable and concerned.. who are not willing to accept your voice of vacuous authority?



[Mrscientificmethod]

and...

So those 'showing an unhealthy obsession.'? What do you mean? Define. Unlike yourself who have spent much time making so many many videos.. you ban those who make a few dissenting comments..... i.e toostonedtocare??

You would make the perfect psychiatrist.

Of course you do not remember those you have banned. . . . you will only remember those that think you are wonderful. Wanker.

[13Heathens]

@Mrscientificmethod "toostonedtocare".. Who's that? Not an ID I remember, however upon checking, they're not blocked.. care to try again?

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens 'no chemical imbalance'? Can you show the science behind the chemical imbalance theory then? There is not one.. not one piece of evidence for this. It is a 'belief'. Psychiatry is a belief system akin to creationism and astrology. Yet the one documentary.. yes the one and only... that attempts to show this (despite it's many flaws).. you choose to attack with venom.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens 'he is ultimately promoting (through his lectures) the notion that there's nothing wrong with schizophrenics etc'. Yes he is saying there is nothing 'wrong'. You, however, think that they are wrong. Despite years of abuse by psychiatry gay people have claimed that there is nothing 'wrong' with them. MadPride is an organisation that states also... there is nothing 'wrong' with us despite the spurious claims of society and people like yourself.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@Mrscientificmethod The reason why those that think differently from normal experience such stress is because of this notion that there is something 'wrong' with them. That they are not 'right in the head' And of course psychiatry is the arm of the state, as Foucalt pointed out, that attempts to imprison and 'cure' those that think differently. You sir, are a disgrace.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@Mrscientificmethod Perhaps you can tell me about what is wrong with all the children in the US that are forced to take poisonous drugs. Drugs similar to those that if I chose to take them I would face imprisonment!!! How logical is that? (Don't get me 'wrong'! I, like Szasz, believe that no government has the authority to dictate what I chose to put into my body.) Anyway. rant over for now. ;-)

[Mrscientificmethod]

@13Heathens 'those little Szasz followers are the one's I'm after' Come on then. Make a valid criticism. You do not have the intellect to understand what he is saying and continually build straw dog arguments. 'People who have mental difficulties are further stigmatized'. Szasz states that those defining those with a mental 'disease' are just being stigmatized. You also demonstrate this stigma. Yet you refer to his view as an 'avalanche of fanatical bullshit.' You are illogical.

[1thebabyalex]

If, by extant, you mean behaviors that have been codified and listed in the DSM, then yes, mental illness exists, certainly in a manner that informs our present culture of medicalizing all manner of behavior (closely related is the notion of "diagnostic creep", whereby "diagnoses" are effected by a lowering the threshold symptoms (not signs, as would be the case with disease states) of the disorder in question, as in (mis)behavior and ADD. Read Melody Petersen's(?) Our Daily Meds and big pharma.

[DrJulienArbor]

Thorazine is not a cure for anything. The side-effects are horrendous and not rare, there is no such thing as "mental illness" and I am NOT a Scientologist. It was known in the 1800s that these symptoms were caused by brain lesions and seizures. Read Jean-Martin Charcot. I'm not an advocate for some of what Scientology does, but they are positively correct about psychiatry being a psuedoscience and more and more psychiatrists and former pharmaceutical reps are coming clean about this.

[13Heathens]

Correct, Thor isn't a cure for anything it was the first anti-psychotic medication aka the first medicinal treatment for schizophrenics or others who are suffering from a psychotic break. There is as big a difference between treatment and cure as there is between cause and symptom.

(SARCASM) There's no such thing as mental illness.. Those people are just Lazy, stupid, irresponsible, without conscience .. demon-possessed even..

Keep up the "good" work deepening the cultural stigma.

[DrJulienArbor]

Thor? Do you fashion yourself a god of thunder of a Marvel comic strip character?

"Those people are just Lazy, stupid, irresponsible, without conscience .. demon-possessed even.. "

Those are YOUR words... not mine. The symptoms exist alright, but they're due to underlying medical conditions (i.e. brain lesions and seizures... I told you to read Charcot) that are not being properly evaluated for and treated... and in fact the psychotropic medications quite often only make matters worse!

[13Heathens]

Thor is short for Thorazine. Those "words of mine" are how society has historically viewed those with psychological problems. Claiming there is no such thing only returns us to such archaic thinking.

Although there are cases in which similar symptoms may be caused by things like brain lesions etc, those are inaccurate assumptions.

You may wish to do more research into the studies into the genetic/biology/neurology of disorders like bipolar, schizophrenia and so forth.

[DrJulienArbor]

I know that Thor is short for Thorazine. You've obviously lost your sense of humor.

What I am suggesting does not return anyone back to archaic thinking. As a matter of fact, by determining the root cause of the problem... not only are the symptoms addressed, but future health conditions are prevented. You are aware of the correlation between schizophrenia and diabetes, yes?

Did you read Charcot? No. Do you know how many psychiatrists fully evaluate their clients for nutritional deficiencies

[13Heathens]

Nope haven't read Charcot, nor do I intend to, any more than I intend to read Szasz or any of a hundred others who've decided to start a movement which will result in further ostracizing those who have lived with mental disorders.

Are you talking about the 50 person study in which 16% were shown to have signs of Diabetes?

BTW; Correlation does not denote causation.

[1thebabyalex]

Correlation does not denote causation:

True enough. However, as for the pronouncements of the psych profession, that so many mental illnesses and disorders "predispose" one to a host of other negative health consequences (as, for instance, premature death), is but armamentarium for the profession's continued discourse, and ongoing practices. Talk about one step forward, two steps back.

[DrJulienArbor]

... hormonal imbalances, seizures, untreated infections, etc.? Psychiatric patients are virtually NEVER given a thorough medical evaluation... and it's generally automatically assumed by medical "professionals' that any symptom that a psychiatric patient has is a result of their non-existent "mental illness".

I've reviewed plenty of the research literature and a lot of it is garbage... poorly designed studies and the manipulation of stats to make all sorts of outrageous claims! As far as...

[13Heathens]

Those poorly designed studies go both ways you realize. Statistical manipulation is common these days esp when it comes to pharmaceutical companies.

Misdiagnosis is also common as is references in this series.

There are indeed many potential medical causative factors, and I for one am an advocate for exploring physiological causes. However some causes are neurological or even genetic.

Regardless of the causal factors such conditions should not be written of as not existing.

[DrJulienArbor]

genetics... a lot of that can also be tossed. DNA is altered after three days of exposure to pollutants and a recent report also indicated that it can be fabricated. Several scientist have already noted that there's an on-off switch for genetic diseases... and NONE of the psychiatric DISORDERS fall in that category anyway. They're called disorders rather than diseases because they're diagnosis is based on a set of behaviors... and behaviors are NOT diseases. I hope to do my own research, and am

[13Heathens]

I'd like to see these studies which claim that genetic is in a constant state of flux based on pollutants. Link please.

You're assumption that none of these disorders is flawed. Not merely in that some are hereditary - often skipping generations - but also due to the progress researchers have had in mapping genes which are involved in varied disorders - ADHD in particular has had some interesting results in this area.

[DrJulienArbor]

... proposing an approach that has not been done before. It would appear that the Boys Club has a bit of a problem that an intelligent woman with common sense... AND AN ACQUIRED BRAIN INJURY... was able to figure something out that they didn't... spoiled sports that they are! No... they would rather play all sorts of games with me than put on their big boy pants and admit that they screwed up. Plus some of them really get off on torture... like a number of my colleagues. Friends of yours Mark?

[13Heathens]

Footnote; My name isn't mark.

... I don't see your point on this one. Surely you don't believe that since your problems were a result of brain injury that everyone else's must also be from the same sort of cause?

[DrJulienArbor]

Wow... 4 reply posts in about 10 minutes... I'm flattered. Now... why would I bother linking any studies for you when you've already admitted to having no interest in reading anything (i.e. Charcot, Szasz, 100 others) that refute your position?

You also have a terrible habit of trying to put your words in someone else's mouth. This is now the second time that I'm needing to correct you regarding what I clearly stated and the manner in which you're attempting to twist it to suit you. And ADHD?

[1thebabyalex]

First, I find it ironic, if not hypocritical that you urge a Ph.D. to do more research. Very laughable, indeed.

Secondly, this notion of getting to the "heart" of "mental" illness and disorders (would that not be BRAIN illness and disorder?), by way of genetic studies, is most flawed and, at up to present, speculative and highly inconclusive. Schizophrenia, now at over a century in the making, has not seen any headway: At the community college that I teach at, there are some two dozen books.

[1thebabyalex]

...on the topic of schizophrenia. I would agree with the good doctor. Getting to the issue of aetiology of so many so-called mental illnesses, in all honesty-good luck on that-does require a jettisoning of notions that have informed institutional psychiatry at present. Yes, current practices generally seem to work, especially within the institiutional setting. But, I ask cui bono? Certainly not for so many "patients". How did that reintegration-reeducation work for you, Heathens? You seem angry.

[RadioPaul1]

Why do you curse so much? Dude you are really smart and this video cloud be used as an outline for an educational study of this topic except you say the F word all the time.

Great work on the research and thank you, very enlightening.

[13Heathens]

I had to watch the IOD movie over and over while preparing my notes, while receiving seemingly endless PMs from "anti-psyche" advocates..

I do have a bit of a gutter mouth, but dealing with all that brought out a bit of the worst in me, honestly.

[RadioPaul1]

Fair enough, I know it is hard not wanting to go totally Ape when dealing with these nutcase cult members. It is just you did such a great job on this video and I can see it being valuable to third parties.

[13Heathens]

It already has been to a degree - the anonymous protesters. I made these videos to help them combat the BS of CCHR. The content is available to be adapted or sampled by anyone who wants to.

[hate4uall]

Ice pick in the eye what the hell ?

plus why do have they mention money all the dam time?

[metrx330]

The threat of electro shock is enough to make many people sane. Even considering this, electro shock looks terrible with all those fits and writhings, it isn't actually nearly as bad as it seems. The current simply breaks a few synapses between brain cells (some inherent mental conditions are simply caused by an oversupply of synapses between cells). The rerouting of electrical impulses (the brain cells aren't actually killed), creates a new pathway altering behaviour.

[lostinthelandoflies]

The threat of electro shock can cure a medical disease? Like diabetes or cancer? Have you had this done to you? Did it alter your behaviour?? What is a few synapses between brain cells anyway.. who cares if you lose them. ;-)

[suarez976]

Lobotomies and shock treatment and insulin shock and thorazine were not the only treatments available at the time. Moral treatment, with was practiced in around 1800 and after, helped schizophrenics be cured from their illnesses, with good rates of success.

And it is questionable if tardive diskynesia is rare or not.

[lostinthelandoflies]

Good point.. I agree. I have seen many cases of tardive diskynesia in the mental hospitals I have visited. Caused by anti-psychotic drugs but subsequently diagnosed as a symptom of mental disease.

[13Heathens]

Now why can't you make more actual comments like that instead of your rampant crusade to attempt to attack me personally?

[lostinthelandoflies]

Er.. I have only responded personally where you have attacked people personally. Otherwise I try to base my comments on scientific thinking. I do fail...often! and maybe tomorrow I will see more reason and apologise.

[13Heathens]

I differentiated between positive and negative eugenics, and commented about screening unborn children for major congenital birth defects, and you went on a 10 message tirade painting a picture of me as someone who'd approve of the worst forms of eugenics.

I defended a historical figure that was an abolitionist, and had some screwy ideas about the reasons for darker skin pigmentation, and you called me racist.

.. stop jumping at shadows, and come back tomorrow.

[lostinthelandoflies]

Screening unborn children for genetic defects.. Then doing what? A genetic defect for mental illness? ADHD for example? Who decides what to do? It is a slippery slope... a difficult ethical question even more so now our genetic profile is held on record. .. in the UK anyway...

Yeh.. I'll stop drinking the whisky and come back tomorrow.... hopefully more rational... cheers!!! ;-)

[13Heathens]

Not for crap like ADHD, lord no! I'm thinking along the lines of Down syndrome. There are some major developmental birth defects ..

I'm talking about the parents having opportunity to find out if there is a problem, and being able to decide whether or not it's something they can cope with.

[lostinthelandoflies]

Agreed... but I worry where the line is going to be drawn and who will hold the pen. I hope that the gene for rebellion will never be found... or even looked for...... ;-)

[lostinthelandoflies]

But I know that the politicians and the priests and the parents will gladly pay the psychiatrists to find it.

[13Heathens]

You and me both!

[lostinthelandoflies]

Moral treatment? Can this cure cancer and heart disease too? I think we should be told.. ;-)

[deagsslook]

American society is drug addicted. Period! All people can think of is a magic pill. Brainwashed, with the help of pills. If the billions were spent - instead of making a very small part of the population rich - on trained staff to apply personal therapies in wonderful environments even the worst of cognitive-emotional diseases could be successfully treated. They ALL need to put their money where their mouths are.

[groupie86]

Maybe if Scientology would spend some money on humanitarian help instead of lawyer fees I'm sure everyone in Africa would be fed. But then again, litigiousness, bribery and other such things are what's preventing you guys from becoming a real religion and making sure people stay away from you guys:) Thx XD

[Eldritchard]

Ive heard the phrase 'Largactil Shuffle' before, must be a trade them for Thorazine. Only thing i know thorazine is good for is killing a bad trip stone dead.

[darthspeaks]

You see they are talking to brainwashed people anyways. That is why it sounds ridiculous.

[Clockworkforest]

Glad to hear it, it is horrifying that this issue has been discredited by Scientology being the first to make it truly public.

[Clockworkforest]

It is respectful to assume that people entering discussion with you are educated until you are given reason to believe otherwise.

Many people suffering from the emotion ANGER as well as GRIEF, etc experience headaches, stomach aches, and all sorts of physiological reactions.

I have studied this field in depth as I was planning to enter it.

[Clockworkforest]

Aww, don't be sore because I won't honor your insulting and vapid questions.

If you limit your research you are choosing to be ignorant. Just like scientologists.

[lostinthelandoflies]

Careful... ;-) These people are worse than the creationists if you try to use rational, scientific arguments..

[Clockworkforest]

Hi Lostinthelandoflies,

Yeah, most extremists are brainwashed. If only they understood the basics of cognitive dissonance. I've stopped trying to convince them for months now, it is scientifically improbable.

[13Heathens]

There's no point in conversing with lost. He's been blocked.

[Clockworkforest]

He still got the message. How you doing 13?

[13Heathens]

Good now that I'm not getting about 20 melodramatic, over exaggerate replies to filter through :>

[Clockworkforest]

Ha, seriously though it puts one in a desperate situation now a days to actually understand psychology.  Marketing is twisted stuff.

[13Heathens]

That and there are so many different schools of thought. Throwing drugs at people based upon observed results instead of on the neurology involved is another can of worms as well.

Yet, what would be required to fully understand all of the chemical interactions within the brain would be barbaric and unethical.. so it's a bit of a catch 22.

But even so, in psychiatry these days they seem to prefer treating the symptom (with drugs) instead of the cause through therapy.

[Clockworkforest]

Well said.

[scrumpmonkey]

i hate how the Co$ sight these drugs and 'evil' and 'completely ineffective'. there have been a few scandals about psych drugs but these are mainly to do with side effects in specific age groups (like the teen suicide scandals in the UK) but even I know allot of people who have been helped by anti-depressants and other drugs to help with mental illness or instability.

[Clockworkforest]

The problem is that these drugs are not being used in the proper context, when used properly they should be a carefully administered guide toward fixing the problem, not making a drug user (which is what they tend to do).

Psychotic states are known to be temporary, yet patients will be indefinitely medicated.

There is in actuality no scientific data that supports unequivocally that chemical imbalances exist for any disorder.

Scientology I absolutely agree sucks.

[Clockworkforest]

Ad hominem? I am not saying that drugs don't make you feel good, and can also affect your mood.

Watch the phd's read from the articles they site on the psychetruth channel if you are interested to know the facts instead of spreading marketing.

[Clockworkforest]

Scientology sucks, but psychiatric drugs really are not supported by science, nor are chemical imbalances. Poop on Scientology all you want, but watch psychetruth for more info on psychiatric meds and chemical imbalances.

[lostinthelandoflies]

Agree!!!

[anonyk23]

re:TD, you can get it from theraputic doses, and rarely from the newer antipsychotics, but it's usually reversible provided they catch it. It's also much less disabling than psychosis, obviously.

Love the debunking, CCHR is the wors front group in my opinion...

[MrFyde]

WOW you've been busy today.

[truvelocity]

5 Stars! Always looking forward to your vids. Also, what did you think of the Montiff recording? I understood it, but were you? I think you would since you always look up what you don't understand in order to make sure its accurate. I know I do.

[TheAutobot]

Man I love how you take apart Scientology. You and Anonymous should help take down this cult.