Penn Jillette: Giving a Cardinal the Bird

[wearethemusicyoumake]

is this the same catholic church that had american bishops that didn't stop supporting slavery until after it was abolished?

yea i thought so

[number1sun]

Descrimination by religious people who then piously plead innocent and then take the high ground when they rebut is nothing new. The reason you never see many black mormons is because until the 1970s they professed that black people had no souls; ie 'the mark of cain' they still dont apologize for it to this day and just try to gloss over it then blame anyone speaking out of defense as 'attacking religion'

All religions are prejudice they just differ in the amount of honesty they hold.

[CrazyMeCrazyYou]

The Bible does not teach that all humans should be treated equally. 'Thou shalt not kill' only applies to individuals in your own tribe and jesus' proverbs often reference the relationship between slaves and their masters. The catholic church itself has a long history of anti-semitism and race discrimination.

[lambofgod203]

not only is this guy a douche bag but I think he fucks his mom after blowing the cardinal!!

[InformationVideos]

Who exactly is this creator? There have been thousands of creator deities, which one is correct, are they all correct, is it all the same entity are they all made up, are only some made up? I'm not trying to be an asshole, just asking an honest question that has always turned me off organized religion.

[Johannson6990]

Humans know when to stop eating fat fuck.

[genepoolshallow]

Calling someone less than human, regardless of how one should be expected to interpret it, is less than good. Less than decent, less than acceptable. It does not qualify as "Reasonable dialogue" and deserves the big middle finger that it got. Add mine to his.

[InvisibleSkyDaddy]

It's too bad we can't go back in time and ask the non Catholics during the inquisitions of their thoughts about the equality that the Catholic church supposedly believes in. Of course you'd like to ask them while they were being tortured by the Catholics for being heretics to get the best results.

[InvisibleSkyDaddy]

Why do so many Christians and other religious zealots always attack Darwin for being a racist as an attack on atheists? Just because someone accepts evolution as the proven scientific fact that it is, doesn't mean that someone follows Darwin like a god. Just because you guys follow a god, doesn't mean everyone else does. Evolution exists regardless of who discovered it. Also evolution is not exclusive to atheists. There are many Catholics and Christians who accept it as fact.

[undertow9x]

Calling Atheists Less Than Human is wrong so ya fuck that Cardinal and fuck you. GOD IS A LIE!

[WalkaCrookedLine]

Sometimes there is much to be said for succinctness, particularly when the person you are speaking to is clearly incapable of accepting any logical argument you could offer. I rather feel Penn's "fuck you" stated all that needed to be said, and was admirably succinct.

[xhaze8]

Okay please don't misrepresent Darwinism one minute and then talk about intellectual maturity the next, if you haven't taken the time to do your research you shouldn't be claiming the high ground here. You say that the church has always taught that there's one race, the human race... in a video where you're defending a cardinal's assertion that a particular minority is less than human, what's your logic here?

[angrylittlegirl]

The Catholic Church certainly did not put its supposed "Only one race, the Human Race" beliefs into action when Jews were being rounded up and slaughtered in Germany, Poland and Russia. In fact, the Church didn't drop charges of "Deicide" against the entire Jewish people until 1965!

The Catholic Church does NOT teach acceptance or equality. The structure of the Church itself would not allow that.

[MohawkMangopit]

Jesus what a twit.

[OaWorld]

,,!, FU@K YOU

[skylineiiigtr]

Um, religious people are less than human. Believe in science.

[matthewtaylorbrown]

Penn has been an activist-atheist for a long time.

It would probably be better if we didn't defend the dehumanization or demonization of others.... EVER.

I do have to give you credit for qualifying it with 'if a god..." From my perspective there are no gods, souls, or sin. With this qualified, we are not missing what you consider of value and necessity. Everyone is lacking what someone else knows or believes. We're all infidels and morally bankrupt to someone. We are all equal and neighbors.

[minnescanada]

Most of the comments here speak so well, I don't need to pile on . This video is downright ignorant. But, hey, at least you got an audience reaction.

[PeteLogan69]

There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages~Richard Lederer

[PeteLogan69]

It has served us well, this myth of Christ.~Pope Leo X

[PeteLogan69]

In history the Catholic run Spanish Empire had the opinion that all natives were under Europians so they had the right to enslave and slaughter natives. So no you fail. The Catholics did promote racism in it's history. Remember lying is a sin too.

[EvolutionEducation]

Charles Darwin never said, wrote or otherwise communicated that any human being is inferior to another. Before you make bullshit statements, do your research. Asshole!

[JakeJax]

@EvolutionEducation Yep. And neither does Penn. Penn constantly states that he believes in the worth of every person and loves everyone, It's the ideas he has problems with. This is insulting to us fellow Atheists and skeptics, as well as penn, and Darwin.

[eyeammi]

Kresta either didn't watch Penn's video or he's a disingenuous liar. Either way, Penn did exactly what K suggested as constituting intellectual maturity. He said quite clearly that the quote "is being pulled by atheist out of context...(but the cardinal) says that the transcendental feeling is part of full human life & atheist lack that." Even so, Penn understands that it's wrong to judge & belittle another person in terms of a set of beliefs that they don't share. The FU is still well deserved.

[MegaWaffleXD]

when you said unremarcable i thought of a movie called the princess diaries o.o

[serapthultima]

Even with the context of the statement the cardinal gave, Kresta, I feel Mr. Jillette's reaction is more than justified. I highly doubt you'd be happy if anyone (authority figure or otherwise) claimed you to be less than human for any reason whatsoever. It was a very rude thing to say.

[Kamisamadesu1]

Is the Cardinal a mute? I am wondering why you are an apologist? The Cardinal got fucking owned. It is this kind of bullshit that turned me from an altar boy into a total atheist. I love the tacit threat of deletion...when pesky fact gets in the way...and people get a wee tad upset about it...they might actually get upset enough to utter the occasional naughty word (so-called). Science is science, religion is religion.; they are different cognitive domains. Prove your intolerance, delete me.

[thechad059]

Here is a adolancent rant for you. If you beleive in god, and someone else does not, its not your place to tell them they are wrong, and vice versa, and therefore, if a boy raper protecting cardnial can say atheists are less than human, then Penn can say fuck you...so, fuck you, and fuck anyone who has anything to say about my, or anyones god(or lack there of god) given right to free speech.

[fredmelmackian]

@thechad059

no kidding. anyone involved with that child rapin condoning institution has no right to criticize anyone. "sorry" krestain!

[Gestaposaurus]

I'm sorry but I just couldn't take this video seriously. You see, I was distracted by the picture of the fictional character behind you to your right.

but nice try, ass.

[lord69z]

Misrepresentation

Genetically, no race is different from one another, the human race is one the most homogenized on earth.

You seem to forget most of the catholic churches history there brother :P You know when the popes were in invent shit such as the "Judas Chair" or the "Pear of Anguish"

Go fuck yourself self-righteous catholic asshole.

[CatholicAmerican]

@lord69z

You are a poser. Who designed these devices? Who were their victims? Names, dates and places. Show me a document that implicates the Church in ordaining the use of such instruments.

Catholics demand original historical documentation. I wish I could say the same for atheists. You are just another example of how atheists will believe anything they hear as long as the lie is stated boldly enough.

[CatholicAmerican]

@lord69z

Oh yeah, another tell tale sign that you are a poser is your language. Grow up and get an education. Parents have a hard enough time teaching their children good English didactic. It's sad to read so many negligent comments from the profiles of atheists. Anyone who is entertained by such deficient speech has a serious problem.

[lord69z]

@CatholicAmerican "sign that you are a poser is your language" Yeah that made sense. Your grasp on the english language is evidently very strong :P

Catholics demand historical documentation? Since when? I suppose no priests have molested kids since they didn't document it.

Keep up with the bronze age belief system - it seems to be serving you well, that is if you're trying to be an insufferable hypocrite.

[CatholicAmerican]

So your response to the questions I posed is to offer insult? A typical atheist you are. That's called posturing. It is a sign that you do not know what you are talking about. It is also a sign that you live by a drone mentality where if the latest pop atheist tells a lie assertively enough, you like a sheep are ready and willing to recycle that lie, no questions asked and no research done.

[lord69z]

@CatholicAmerican Keep it coming

Ever read Dante?

Anyway get used to dealing with the insults and attacks because most of use without the childish eternal life fantasy will keep multiplying.

You guys are on the way out,... well that is until you guys start allying yourself with more sociopaths and dictators and start some more pogroms.

By the way - I AINT GONNA HOLD YOUR HAND SO YOU CAN MAYBE LIVE IN REALITY.

Keep regurgitating your PATHETIC apologetics , it ain't fooling anyone.

[CatholicAmerican]

Dante's a Catholic.

The Catholic Church has produced the most and the greatest thinkers in history because she builds universities and hospitals. Contrary to the fairy tales that atheists tell. University of Paris, Universitas Magistrorum et Scholarium, Abbey of St. Denis, University of Reims, Collège de Bons Enfants, University of Cologne, University of Vienna, Charles University in Prague, Notre Dame, University of Dallas, Boston College, Ave Maria University, Georgetown, and will continue.

[lord69z]

@CatholicAmerican Dantes books to show his contempt for the actions of the popes, and yes he was a catholic.

All your listing of buildings is as impressive as a Scientologist listing his bullshit religions real estate dealings.

You havent mentioned JESUS once

What you defending? a oligarchy of rich corrupt priests that have their own country?.Just a dying and disgusting pervert/pedo protecting self interested clergy.

Like the vatican looks ANYTHING like a city of jesus.

Pathetic.

[CatholicAmerican]

"You havent mentioned JESUS once"

That's because I don't throw my pearls to swine. So you fault me for not mentioning my King? Catch 22 eh. Damned if I do and damned if I don't. Why would I talk about the God you don't believe in? I accept your non belief but I am here to confront your ignorance of historical facts and reveal to you that atheism produces ignorant drones who make up stories about history. They recycle myths that have been debunked and then accuse Christians in believing in myths

[CatholicAmerican]

"Like the vatican looks ANYTHING like a city of jesus."

Uhm, yes it does. I've been there. I know what the paint smells like. I've never seen anything else like it on earth. It's gardens are beautiful, It's libraries are full of original historical documents. It's streets are full of amazing sculptures. It's halls are often filled with the most delicately crafted music the human ear has ever heard.

Oh that the rest of the world could be so miraculously adorned.

You've been to Rome?

[CatholicAmerican]

Actual concrete walls stand in testimony against the ignorant atheist assertion that the Catholic church wants to keep people dumb. And those grand Universities have produced thinkers like, George Lemaitre, the Father of the Big Bang theory. Abbot Gregor Mendel, the Father of Genetics. Franciscan Friar, Roger Bacon, the Father of Scientific Laws. St. Archbishop Nicolas Steno, the Father of Geology. Antoine Lavoisier, the Father of Modern Chemistry.

[lord69z]

@CatholicAmerican What about when the Vatican didnt want people to translate the bible into english?They wanted their latin to keep regular people in the dark.

No i suppose that didn't happen either.

Listing shit doesnt mean shit.

Want me to start listing inquisitors? Oh i suppose you dont take responsibility for all your catholic wealth from the rape/torture/murder and theft of poor people.

Keep it going!

[CatholicAmerican]

Yes I want you to start listing inquisitors but after you answer my question about the "Judas chair".

You see, you're just jumping from atheist bed time story to atheist bed time story. If you were to list inquisitors then you would also be able to find letters from the Vatican rebuking them for their actions. But I don't think you've actually read an actual historical document from the inquisition, only atheist revisionist stories made up long after the events occurred and void of reference.

[lord69z]

@CatholicAmerican Oh they sent a letter rebuking them? wow - what a response, what about the pact between pope Pious and Hitler? I suppose youll figure out a way to justify those EVILS too.

Oh and i dont remember jesus walking around in expensive robes adorned with gold and jewels... yeah so christ like.

[CatholicAmerican]

@lord69z

Uhm, you haven't provided any list of inquisitors. so, how do atheists say it?..."Fail!"

Letters of rebuke to inquisitors proves that the Church was not responsible for inquisition torture. Those letters are original historical documents. That's what matters to real historians and those letters shatter the atheist lies about the inquisition. so "Fail!"

Oh, and yet another topic. The pope and Hitler. Please cite a source. Where is this "pact" other than in your sad head. "Fail!"

[CatholicAmerican]

" What about when the Vatican didnt want people to translate the bible into english?"

You're a liar. Prove it. Cite a Vatican document that says this. I don't blame you though lord69z. You're not full of your own crap, you're full of other people's crap. The atheists who came before you who wrote whatever blog or book you got your false information from.

I'm not here to force anybody to believe in God. I'm here to prove a point that atheists don't reference actual historical documents.

[CatholicAmerican]

@lord69z

I'll be waiting for your "list of inquisitors".

[CatholicAmerican]

Dr. Martin Nowak, discoveries in evolutionary dynamics. Fr. George Coyne, the discoverer of asteroid 14429 Coyne.

And then there are other Christians like the first men to walk on the moon. Dr. Francis Collins who headed the human genome project.

Atheism is a religion. It is made up of zealots who ignore historical facts and revise and retell history in a way that suits their world view. I'm not here to "fool anyone" I'm here to point out how ignorant and misguided atheists are.

[CatholicAmerican]

@lord69z

I don't know what you mean by "reality" but I'm guessing by your context that you're talking about believing or not believing in God, which has nothing to do with any of your comments nor my comments thus far. So apply your religious dogma where it would make sense. You're acting like a religious zealot with a screw loose. And that's yet another example of atheism producing people who only want to talk about God and have very little ability to maintain a coherent, on topic discussion.

[harlingtonstraker]

How about this for fair and accurate:

"You believe"

That is as far as it goes, mate. Admit it. Your belief is not "The Truth", for you have no proof. You can BELIEVE it is "the Truth" FOR YOU, but you cannot expect ANYONE to behave as if you have "the Truth".

Grief, the Divinity of Jesus was probably an invention of that Paul anyhow, to fit in with his Gentile pantheon.

p.s. I noticed you slipped in the ad hominem to discredit Penn at the beginning by implying he was a racist. Fail.

[jinko17]

Human beings will fulfill their nature as they come to understand their creator = atheists are less than human. Is that your final answer?

[FoothillsofWyoming]

atheist are very angry people.

[wildchildcobhc]

there is no god

there is no meaning

there is no purpose

the cardinal's statement was ignorant and arrogant and I am fucking sick of religious people belittling the intelligence of respectable and respectful humans who havent been brainwashed by reglion.

Penn was right to say what he did, and if you werent a close-minded fat ass catholic with a bullshit agenda, you might actually see that. Keep your bullshit superstitions to yourself

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

I don't know how you can be so against a church that has produced thinkers like George Lemaitre, the Father of the Big Bang theory.

Abbot Gregor Mendel, the Father of Genetics.

Franciscan Friar, Roger Bacon, the Father of Scientific Laws.

St. Archbishop Nicolas Steno, the Father of Geology.

Rene Descartes, the Father of Modern Rationalism.

Fr. Marin Mersenne, the Father of Acoustics.

Andreas Vesalius, the Father of Modern Anatomy and Physiology.

Antoine Lavoisier, the Father of Modern Chemistry.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Blaise Pascal, the Father of Hydrostatics.

Louis Pasteur, the Father of Pasteurization.

Archdeacon Nicolaus Copernicus, the Father of Heliocentrism.

Pierre Duhem, the Father of the History of Medieval Science.

Fr. George Coyne, the discoverer of asteroid 14429 Coyne.

Dr. Martin Nowak, discoveries in evolutionary dynamics.

Guglielmo Marconi, the Father of Radio.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

And when you recall University of Paris, Universitas Magistrorum et Scholarium, Abbey of St. Denis, University of Reims, Collège de Bons Enfants, University of Cologne, University of Vienna, Charles University in Prague, Notre Dame, University of Dallas, Michigan University, Boston College, Ave Maria University, Georgetown, Gonzaga University, Villanova, Fordham University. Religious people can be proud of their building of institutes of higher learning.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

The Catholic Church has built 624 hospitals in the United States alone.

I'll never understand how the atheist can claim that they are men of science but then disrespect the institution that has produced the greatest scientific advancements that history has ever seen. The fact of the matter is that when an atheist states "there is no god", he has exited the realm of science and entered that of religion.

[wildchildcobhc]

That is totally ridiculous. It is easy to say that an atheist is religious because he disbelieves in your outrageous claims, but it is not correct. If you are going to claim something phenomenal like the existence of a god, then you better damn well be able to prove that it exists.

you are just as much an atheist to the flying spaghetti monster as we are to god. Do not ever mistake atheists' disbelief towards your god as religion. IT IS NOT. You have to prove your claim before atheists

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

The atheist has the duty of explaining the origin of the order that is present in the universe. The atheist has the duty of explaining why he believes that there is an objective moral truth in the world but that it doesn't come from a god.

These are the 2 crucial questions that Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett, and Harris all avoid. They have no answer other than to put fourth something that sounds like the stories that they smirk at Christians for telling and believing.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Does the atheist have to convince himself that there is no order in the universe? He does if he believes that the universe got to where it is today from an origin of chaos.

The atheist doesn't even have ground for stating that religion is wrong because it implies that there is right and wrong, for the atheist to be a true atheist there can be no such restrictive teaching. At least Hitchens has the honesty to say that he does not know how to ground right and wrong. Do you think otherwise?

[wildchildcobhc]

will believe in it. It is that simple. The church has NOT produced the greatest scientific advancements in history, and i think it is totally ignorant to say that. Most of the scientific advancements have been deeply opposed by religious people because they have been a threat to their religion.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

So in this comment of yours are you answering the list of great historical thinkers, universities, and hospitals that exist in history and reality with "they are not great".

No scientific advancement is opposed to God, and that is where atheism shows itself to be a religion. There is no war between faith and reason, that's why George Lemaitre, Gregor Mendel, Roger Bacon, Nicolas Steno have achieved what they have.

[Eikus89]

@KrestaInTheAfternoon No war between faith and reason?! 'Faith' means that you think that something is true because you think it is true (a nonsensical tautology), that the only proof you need is that you believe in it. Reason means that you only accept that which you have proof for to be true. For something to be accepted as true according to reason, it must be logically consistent with the rest of the world. Faith is the very definition of anti-reason.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

It is not "ignorant" to be a student of history. It is ignorant to hold on to bad philosophy that is proven wrong by history.

[DuckPhup]

So, then... people who are NOT so stupid, gullible and/or cowardly that they can be bullied, cajoled, threatened, deceived, coerced, frightened, tricked, manipulated or bamboozled to the point where they can be made to BELIEVE that the world/universe was poofed into existence by an invisible, magical, supernatural sky-fairy, who then created a race of beings (us) from a dust-bunny and a rib for the purpose of loving him, praising him and kissing his holy ass... are 'intellectually impoverished'.

[wildchildcobhc]

well said.

[CliffM85]

Actually it was the Catholic Church that supported Adolf Hitler, they decommunicated not even one Nazi. Not one. Add the Catholics are fighting against condoms for Africans since 'birth control is a sin'.

Mind you that Evolution shows humanity as an equal species regardless of race and sex, whereas religion tends to portray women as inferior (including Catholicism) and races are inferior (Mormons with black people). Religion is what is holding us down and lies like yours are retarding society

[suitov]

Would Jillette recognise your portrayal of his 'tradition' as one that "believes that some human beings are inferior to others... for racial reasons but other reasons as well" as "fair and accurate"?

I'm still waiting for evidence that the Catholic church considers and treats women and non-straight folks as equal to celibate men.

Can't a genuine religious person make a less-than-two-minute clip without resorting to misrepresentation and blatant self-contradiction? Doesn't seem so...

[ketos234]

Do you need reminding of the curse of Ham and slavery? Catholicism long supported it. I will also note that it was the enlightenment that eventually cured that ill; the use of reason instead of appeal to bronze age texts.

If human beings are not, then faith is not only ignorant, but false. You need to defend your presuppositions.

You talk about reasonably representing your opponents when defending O'Connor's statements, or claiming that secular humanists are pro-slavery? The irony burns.

[suitov]

Slavery is supported in the Christian bible, but I bet it isn't in any of the books Jillette would consider authoritative or morally correct. Slavery is part of the Christian 'tradition'.

[sirwaldo999]

You sir are an unremarkable jackass. Humanity will eventually wake up and your pitiful superstition will come to an end.

[RozarSmacco]

Catholics priests over the years have always displayed that "mark of intellectual maturity" like when they burned witches at the stake (children too!) and tortured people during the inquisition.

Thank Darwin, humanity is finally waking up and throwing off the antiquated,asinine, immature animist notions of religion and evolving to a higher state filled with rational thought processes and coherent logical ideas.

[rosmarinusofficialis]

I am familiar with Lemaitre's hypothesis of the primeval atom, and although he was the father of the idea of the big bang, he did not coin the term. It was used for the first time in a 1949 radio broadcast by Fred Hoyle in a pejorative sense. Hoyle favoured the Steady State theory, which, by the way, still has its adherents now. Perhaps you have also read Prof. Stephen Hawkins's comments on p.47 of A Brief History of Time: cont...

[rosmarinusofficialis]

"Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of devine intervention. (The Catholic Church, on the other hand, seized on the big bang model and in 1951 officially pronounced it to be in accordance with the Bible)" What took the Church so long.

I am an amateur astronomer and have my own observatory.

[rosmarinusofficialis]

Who says that there ever was chaos - if we are talking of the beginning of the present time, i,e, since the Big Bang. As far as the universe is concerned it was probably in perfect order until some brainy human decided it wasn't and called it chaos. It is all a matter of perception. Being a very tidy person I find many of my friends' houses chaotic, but in their eyes everything is in order.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

You mention "Big Bang". So are you familiar with the father of the Big Bang theory then? Fr. George Lemaitre is the first person to coin the term. So remember that the Catholics are the first to articulate the big bang as a possible explanation for the creation of the universe. But from the last part of your comment you are talking about relativism and a flawed understanding of existence. Reality is not dependent on human perception and emotion. Reality exists weather or not you and I are here.

[rosmarinusofficialis]

I posted the original video, and I regret the foul language used in comments by both atheists and Christians. However, I have to take issue with your comment, Krestain, that humans are made in the image of God. I am for one do not make such a claim because I do not believe in any god(s) ancient or modern. I am very happy just being a brief, chance occurrance in nature, like the beetles, butterflies etc. I like to observe and film. Nobody has given me purpose to my life other than myself.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

So you believe that order can come from disorder and chance?

[rosmarinusofficialis]

Yes, I do. In fact, everybody comes about by chance. If your mother had had a migraine or your father had had a bad day at the office when you were created you would be here writing to me.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

How does order come out of chaos? If there is order then the only explanation is that there had to be something rational that could put it in order.

[panzom]

Can you please tell me how calling someone "not fully human" is farthing the intellectual conversation? It's not you are making a derogatory statement about someone that you feel you are superior to. So if you, a cardinal, or the pope ever implied I was less then human my response to your derogatory statement would be one of my own. Fuck You!!!

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

The problem is that you think this is a "superiority" issue. It isn't. The problem is that atheists don't allow for points of view that differ from their own. The atheist doesn't believe in God and they, at least here on youtube, are very clear with their rage against those who have a different philosophy from theirs. The cardinal's words are completely consistent with believing in a creator. On the other hand. The actions of Penn and you are in contradiction to "peaceful intellectual atheism".

[axl409v]

its the only response to what is really an insult to rational thinking people who dont believe in ANY god...how would you respond if someone told you that you were "less than human"...granted saying fuck you is crude but its no more or less insultive than the garbage the cardinal gave us...besides the issue most atheists have isnt peoples belief, its those beliefs being imposed onto us in everyday society, religious bullying and quite frankly people are fed up with it

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Penns actions are not rational. They are set for the tearing down of another human being. They are not the actions of someone who wants to help his fellow man. The actions of the Cardinal on the other hand are logically ordered and coherent. They are not aimed at atheists they are aimed at the poverty of not knowing God.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

If you're on an ocean with out a map and you are lost, you do not stop and listen to the angry man who is cussing out the other sea captains. You listen to the man who claims to have a map and can logically show you where to go in order to find the safe destination you might even follow him there. Penn is the angry lost man sitting in his boat making fun of people instead of rowing. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who settle for parking their boats next to him.

[mauman666]

Kresta >> "The Catholic Church has undertaken the development of thousands of universities, hospitals, orphanages ... "

Kudos to the Catholic Church for these things. If "enlightened" people have failed in this regard, shame on them.

Kresta >> "Can you point to "enlightened" people who don't try to revise and edit history?"

I don't know enough to answer that question, it's outside my ken. Can you answer it? All of us should strive to be accurate when we give out information.

[mauman666]

You accuse Penn of misrepresenting what the Cardinal said, which is a mark of intellectual immaturity.

Here's Penn's summary of the Cardinal's position: "He says that essentially the transcendental feeling is part of a full human life, and atheists lack that, and therefore they are not fully human."

Go ahead and quibble with his use of the word feeling. Nevertheless, the Cardinal should recognize this as a fair and accurate representation of his position.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

That is wrong mauman. The Cardinal is logically rearticulating the age old obvious effect of not knowing God. There is nothing special here, neither is there anything to stop and cuss about. If there is a god then he who does not know God lives in intellectual poverty. If you believe in God then that is the only logical way of thinking. If you are going to get angry about this then you had better put fourth some kind of logical alternative action instead of trying to rial up emotions.

[mauman666]

On the other hand, if there is no god, then he who thinks he knows God lives in intellectual insanity.

You made this video because the cardinal used a poor choice of words and you felt the need to come to his aid. You prefer the words of Augustine. Had the cardinal done the same, none of this would have happened.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

That doesn't change the fact that the Cardinal is presenting a solid body of thought. Your only argument then is to say "Well what if God doesn't exist, then you are wrong". At no point is it ok for someone to react like Penn and just start throwing mud and attacking character and office because he doesn't like the conclusion. The reaction of Penn is common among atheists. They want people to get mad instead of to think. Penn's is not a rational reaction.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

So you're saying that if God doesn't exist then Penn's response is a rational one?

[mauman666]

No. Penn's response is vulgar, disrespectful and dismissive. Perhaps he thinks the cardinal's description of atheists is not worthy of anything more than that.

Here's what I don't get. Why do you let Penn get under your skin? I've looked at some of his videos on religion, and there's not much there. He's a bore. How did you find his video about the cardinal anyway? I can't believe you waste time on him.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Kresta in the Afternoon is a chatechetical program. We use current events to advance fides et ratio (faith and reason).

Penn's video was in the most popular section of youtube videos for that day and it was a great chance to point out how atheists like him try to distort words and appeal to emotions instead of advancing rational discussion.

[mauman666]

OK.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Error effects the entire society. It is your duty to defend the truth when you can and to seek out and know the truth so that you can defend it. This video isn't an issue of Penn getting under anyone's skin, It's an issue of knowing the truth and pointing out error for the benefit of society.

[mauman666]

At the risk of going further with this than is warranted, I think you are wrong when you said, a couple of comments ago, that Penn distorted the cardinal's words. In fact, other than rudely dismissing the cardinal, all Penn did was to accurately summarize the cardinal's position in less harsh terms.

Very early on you said that Penn follows enlightenment tradition and that his ideas need to be grouped with those of Kant.

What ideas? You are making way too much of this. Enlighten up, man.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

When you exclude or ignore man's built in capacity to desire and search for transcendent meaning, you diminish the human person and you reduce your own humanity. Both Penn and Roger Bolton key off of the words "not fully human" and they ignore the context of the words. Penn goes further and incites hate towards the Cardinal for stating the well grounded fact that Atheists either ignore or try to diminish an integral characteristic in man.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

If you want to know more about Kant and the enlightenment then you'll just have to read the works of Kant. After that, I would recommend google searching and reading "The Pillars of Unbelief - Kant PETER KREEFT" It is on Peter Kreeft's website.

[mauman666]

I'll do that.

When I looked at Kant's Critique of Pure Reason a long time ago, I thought it was either over my head or gibberish. I guess it could be both. I'll try Kant again: this time his "Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals."

But there problems with your approach to this thing. Please see my next comment. I'll lay out the problems there.

[mauman666]

Problems with your approach:

1) You claim that Penn distorted the Cardinals words. I say he didn't. You need to back up your claim. It's not enough to say that Penn is wrong to disagree with the Cardinal or to say that he is a boor.

[mauman666]

Problems continued:

2) You made the claim that Penn's ideas can be grouped with those of Kant. First, I don't see Penn presenting any ideas, other than to rudely disagree with the Cardinal. Second, why should I have to delve through Kant's works to try to find the connection you've made between Kant and Penn's behavior and his disagreement with the Cardinal. You made the assertion. Now back it up by pointing me to something specific that Kant said.

[mauman666]

One more thing. Is doubt part of being fully human? Do you have any doubt about your own belief in God? If you have some doubt, how much do you have? How much doubt is acceptable to God before He sends you off to Hell? Is agnosticism too much doubt?

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

mauman

This video was posted June 9. I want to point out that you are the one making the "big deal" about this.

I pointed out the answer to your 1) I used the cardinal's own words. Your being obstinate is not my problem to fix. Your 2) is answered by studying the inlightenment. Read some books. This is no place for an education that you should have already had before posting your first comment. Your 666 from your name is showing.

[mauman666]

I'm neither pleased nor displeased with Penn's conduct. I take it in stride. OK, so he doesn't like addressing the Cardinal as "Cardinal," calls him a dipshit, and dismissively flips him off. Oh well, I'm not going to make a federal case out of it.

I'm supposing Penn thought the Cardinal's statement sufficiently inane that he could dismiss it as self-refuting, and all he needed to do was provide some kind of visual exclamation point. He chose to flourish the bird. Ho hum.

[mauman666]

I don't know much about The Enlightenment, so I don't know what it has to do with Penn's ideas and conduct. That's why I asked.

I don't know much about Immanuel Kant, so I don't know how his ideas relate to Penn's ideas. That's why I asked.

In a cursory look at The Enlightenment entry in Wikipedia, I found things like self-governance, natural rights, natural law, liberty, individual rights, reason, and deism. I would promote those things, with the exception of deism.

[mauman666]

First, I now realize it was a mistake to reply to a comment within your chain of comments that were meant to be a single, integrated reply to seiferganon. I really messed it up. I should have made a brand new comment instead. That's the bad thing about the 500 character limit. I didn't think. Sorry about that.

[artifex12]

Thanks for this commentary Mr. Kresta, always so insightful!

[stealthswimmer]

mutual respect? I guess that explains why they led the Spanish Inquisition.

Oh wait...

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

What book or books have you read about the Spanish inquisition?

Can you justify your topic jump? Do you even realize that you are bringing up a topic that has nothing to do with this video or are you just acting in a reflexive manner without reason?

[seiferganon]

I have several issues with this rebuttal. First off, please show where it is that Penn thinks some people are inherently less that others.

Second, I understand Murphy-O'Connor's argument, that humanity is made for that transendental experience, which he clarifies that Catholics call God. However, he then explicitly goes on to say that those who do not have it have "not fully human." This is in no way poverty. No matter how poor someone is I would never choose to call them not fully human.

[seiferganon]

Third, I would agree with you that Penn should maybe have been more tactful in his video. However, so should O'Conner. It would be like if Penn instead says "Individuals who have transcendetal experiences have a mental disorder." Did he call Christians mentally ill? No, but by extension could he have? Yes. Same for O'Conner. Not that I am equating inferior people to mentally ill, since I consider inferior to be a much worse insult than mentally ill.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Penn's video illustrates a clear case of thinking you are better than another group of people. He is intolerant, he mocks and insults, he tries to construct an erroneous point. He thinks that the Cardinal is trying to offend atheists. The cardinal is respectfully stating a logical conclusion if a God does in fact exist. Penn's actions are clear. You act that way towards someone who you believe is less than you.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Catholic pedagogy teaches its students to seek out and address the root issue. The manner in which Penn is conducting himself and the ideas he is trying to promote, follows in the tradition of the so called "enlightenment". By recognizing this and grouping Penn's ideas with those of Emmanuel Kant, the public discussion is advanced. Kant spoke during the 1700s. Do you believe that in over 200 years, there have been no conclusions that can be made about the "enlightenment"?

[mauman666]

Please explain what you mean when you say Penn's ideas follow in the tradition of the The Enlightenment.

Which ideas of his match up with those of Kant? Do I need to watch other Penn videos to find out? If so, which ones?

You're obviously down on The Enlightenment. What was bad about it? Was there anything good about it?

Keep it simple if you can. Philosophical language confuses me.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

What do you know about the enlightenment and what good things about the enlightenment would you like to promote?

Are you pleased with Penn's conduct?

The purpose of this video is to first, point out how Penn dehumanizes the people, or entire groups of people, he disagrees with. And the second purpose is to encourage people to read about the enlightenment so that they can see the historical origin of Penn's thought pattern.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Was Penn engaging in an adolescent rant or was he appealing to intellect and open dialog?

All too often, we find in the "enlightenment", those who develop caricatures, stereotype, and straw dummies that appeal to people who are ignorant of the facts surrounding an event, philosophy, theology, or scientific finding.

Catholics pedagogy advances public knowledge. It doesn't cater to ego. "Enlightenests" coin terms like "Dark Ages" even though Catholics built over 90 universities during that time.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

The Catholic Church has undertaken the development of thousands of universities, hospitals, orphanages, and public records buildings. The Vatican held the largest library in the world at one point. Catholic missionaries went into plague infected areas in order to find cures for diseases. All of these historical facts seem to slip between the cracks in the pedagogy of "enlightened" people. Wouldn't you agree? Can you point to "enlightened" people who don't try to revise and edit history?

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

Do you believe flipping off your opponent and disrespecting the title that they are recognized by is an act of respect or an act of lowering and dehumanizing another person?

Cardinal O'Connor's words prompt atheists to seek a greater humanity and not settle with a philosophy that devalues your opponents and enables you to speak poorly of them. The Cardinal orates his point in a very respectful way and it is a logical point for one who believes in a creator.

[KrestaInTheAfternoon]

seiferganon. You said "please show where..."

Are you now satisfied with the demonstration?

Do you believe Penn's actions are that of one who holds opposing views as being equal to himself? The actions of Cardinal O'Connor are respectful. You might disagree with his belief in a creator, but you can not say that his conclusion is not a logical one if God exists. Penn is intolerant and the Catholic Cardinal is tolerant. Penn's conduct hurts discussion and the Cardinal's conduct invites discussion.

[lepus49]

First Paste watch?v=Z3koXGHud8U after youtube-dot-com-backlslash, in your address bar, apparently Mr. Gillette believes human beings who have not yet reached a specific stage of development are not human or at least not afforded the same consideration. I think Mr. Kresta covers the intellectual elitism and its inherent condescension well.

[lepus49]

Second - We aught not conflate what fully human means, in what the cardinal is saying fully human does not mean legally "fully human" or biologically "fully human" but here fully human means experiencing, live thoroughly as it meant to be lived - not experiencing this full human experience is a poverty and those that suffer this poverty are not fully human

[lepus49]

Much like you would say that a man who has never loved, has not lived his life fully. In this sense an atheist is much like a man afraid to be hurt in a relationship becomes a hermit and withdraws from the world. They are not richer for their denying themselves the opportunity at an intimate relationship but are poorer; they are denying a part of their nature and a part of their own humanity. They are not fully human but fully human by their own choice.

[lepus49]

Thirdly, it is not a question of tact but rather of one communication, specifically the different types of language used within the Church and outside of it. The language of the Cardinal is very much in keeping with the tradition of the Catholic Church, which understands its ministry as one of transmitting the faith over thousands of years, so that they who believe in Christ can live out their lives to the fullest by, living it in accordance to Gods will.

[almightydoan]

Great stuff as always, Al!