I'd watch out Mormonism is a very sneaky cult they are wolfs in sheepskin clothing just like jahovas wittness check out way of the master Mormonism n youtube
that first quote about believing to be saved is taken out of the the context that the guy to which it was said was soon after baptized, and all his household too, into the NT church.
The thing about Joseph Smith judging folks of these last days is intended no differently from the way Jesus told his original twelve that they would be judges in the resurection (matt 19 28)
and... is he preaching against mormons in his own church? lame. might as well say that lds are a threat only to his income
I think Brigham Young commited an excess. Cometió un exceso. But that doesn´t ilegitimate the church. We worship Jesuschrist and the most importan in this church is being holy, to live holy in the fear of God and that means "works".
@majinish Isa 8;20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Now Lds "scripture"... There are many gods, (M Doct, p. 163). you have the potential of becoming a god, (T of JSmith, p. 345-347, 354.) now Isaiah 43:10
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
@blutowpi Bluto, there are "gods many, and lords many". And before you knock what I said in quotes I recommend you learn where the quote comes from. Deification is a Christian doctrine.
if "NO ONE" escapes hell w/o jesus (his words not mine) what about good ppl who r atheists or deistic or budihts or what about babies or ppl who've never heard the gospel that die? how is it fair to punish ppl for having a problem called sin that they inheritted unjustly because of things 2 ppl did 6000 years ago. then provide no evidence that there is a heaven or hell, and place millions of ppl throughout history in places that never recieved the gospel? smh
@Keenanville09 Read your bible dude! Now that Jesus has come there is no other way to God the Father. "No man comes to the father exept through me". I think that sums it up pretty good. People before Jesus and who haven't heard of him will be judged according to their faith in God. Any more dumb questions?
u only adressed 1 part of my comment and u did so extreemely ignorantly. if u read the OLD TESTIMENT (b4 jesus) god goes around slaughtering nation after nation for not believing in "the one true god". having faith in any god wasnt enough. besides, like i said in my previous comment, there isnt any evidence to support heaven or hell so its an illogical position to believe they exist.
When I heard that quote about needing consent from Joe Smith I remembered reading about another person (not Mormon) teaching that the 12 Apostles (you know, Peter, James, John, etc) would "...also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." One of their followers also taught "...that the saints shall judge the world?...Know ye not that we shall judge angels?..." Who comes up with this stuff? And this was before Mormons! What would Jesus say about these teachings?!
About NT Jesus saying they will judge the 12 tribes & Paul saying Christians will judge angels: U left out a lot that divides the J Smith reference. The NT doesn't say judge for what & etc- NO details. One CONTEXT is at/right after the second coming of Jesus- in LDS theology, that starts the 1,000 reign of Jesus on earth. That's before the Last Great Judgment Day
Young said Smith has to approve us for salvation- JOD.
Jesus: upon saving faith:"Is passed from death into life."
You know who else puts truth together with alot of personal opinion, and tries to make it all sound like fact? Thats right!!! Satan. Is anyone seeing the big pitcher here yet?All men have opinions its only the extremely crafty ones that can make theres sound like facts. Trust in the holy ghost. He'll help guide you in the right direction. Never look for it from a man.
@harry4health Well, Good thing there isnt any documentation of any kind that disproves Christ or his Church. But the will of man has and always will try its best to disprove things that it doesn't understand. I suggest that you try and understand what its like to live your life in accordance with God and his laws. Do that and then we might understand each other a bit more. You might even begin to understand a few things you never thought were possilbe even.
marco -UR condescending & empty. UR post could be copied & pasted to ANY religious person of any religious group. It shows nothing, except U assume there's no evidence against LDSism, when there is. If U don't care about evidence at UR core, but go w/ a subjective feelings-based testimony, why would it matter? U smear me by asserting I don't supposedly understand.
UR drive-by insulting smearing shows UR heart. Maybe if U want an honest discussion, U "might .. understand"
@harry4health Just because you have hardened you heart against something doesn't mean you understand it. Just means you dont want to accept it. Anytime someone speaks ill about something and tries to get others to believe as feel the same way they do about it? Is that understanding? Is that love? Is that the way God wants us to act? My apologies for my bluntness. I have no cause to smear you. But that "feeling" its called the spirit of Christ. We should all have the chance to feel it daily.
marco- Is it love to expose error for the Christian? Yes. From the non-Christian? Yes. Why? Millions know beliefs have consequences & Paul eternally condemned all who preach a false gospel or "ANOTHER Jesus"& those who preach them "are FALSE apostles, DECEITFUL workmen, DISGUISING themselves as apostles of Christ. and are "HIS [SATAN'S] servants"! (Gal 1:6-9,2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15)
The issue is whether LDS will disregard Paul & violate Acts 17:11 to test living church leaders by written scripture
@harry4health Honest discussion would intale real events and real personal experiences. Unfortunately reality differs a bit for everyone. I'm sorry i cant deny my very real experiences of God and living a life in tune with his teachings. It has enriched my life and taught me not to harden my heart against anyone. We should all be so lucky as to have that kind of peace in our life.But I suppose some do not want it.
marcopolo8765 - Just because U have hardened UR heart against the truth does not erase facts & evidence, biblical & otherwise, because U use feelings/experience, all subjective, as UR standard of truth. The Bible gives objective standards- Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15, Deut 13 & 18, Acts 17:11, etc.
Honest discussion for someone who says there's is the only true church of Jesus would entail the Bible as the standard of already written scripture. U have forsaken that, or never believed it
marco - U claim love & nice feelings, but U condescended then & U continue. Sorry, that is false. I DO understand, so stop insulting me & say again that I don't. I UNDERSTAND Mormonism well. I disagree. It is telling U don't want to believe some can understand & disagree.
Millions have feelings they 'know' are of God, but they testify to doctrines, etc., that contradict LDSism. Feelings are not the NT church standard-Acts 17:11.
Jer 17:9- "The heart is deceitful above all things"
@harry4health Well good thing mormons dont go after what they want in there heart then. I am so glad to have the spirit of Christ with me as a guide. Instead of following the wants and desires of my heart. Everyone deserves to have that spirit in there life. Ask your local LDS missionary for help finding that sweet spirit of Christ that is missing from your life. You'll be glad you did.
Marco- Jer 17:9 says HEART is DECEITFUL above all things. World today wants us to use subjective ways to 'know' truth. Glad I don't fall for the world's ways & call it Christian. LDS "spirit of Christ" is another way to keep the true biblical standards from your mind to guard UR heart. I already gave some Bible w/objective standards to know/test truth- U ignored & didn't address them: Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15, Deut 13 & 18, Acts 17:11, etc.
@harry4health Hey just because Most mormons take what the bible says literally and follow its teaching a lot more closely than most christians do doesnt mean we believe it. It just means we like to do what it says we should do? Is that so wrong?
MARCO-In the official April 1977 General Conference, printed in the LDS Church magazine, the "Ensign", Seventy Bernard B. Brockbank, stated:
"It is TRUE that many of the Christian churches worship a DIFFERENT Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ... We CANNOT obtain salvation and eternal life by worshipping FAKE Christs or by living the doctrines and commandments of men."
@harry4health amen brother , amen. That was a great issue. And aint it so true to. Your preacher man can't bring you salvation. Only Christ can. But if your preacher isn't in tune with the spirit of Christ. Then where does leave the congregation and people like you. A little out in the dark id say. Getting a relationship with the savior, a real one. is the Only thing that will matter. Following what your preachers tells ya. Probably not going to help
Marco-What U really said is that I am in the dark because "[my] preacher]" is. He can't be in the light if he isn't in the only true church of Mormonism, has no divine authority, doesn't have the 'Holy Ghost' because UR priesthood didn't give it to him, has a corrupted Bible (BOM 1 Nephi 13) & doesn't have supposed 'true'/LDS prophet & leaders
Then LDS smear us as anti-Mormon when we oppose this
Following what your bishop & LDS prophet Monson is not going to help U. 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15, Gal 1:6-9
NT says apostles were top leaders over whole church, evangelists were not patriarchs for converted but preached gospel to non-Christians (Acts 8), 2 Peter 2:5,9 has a priesthood of all Christians, not just some of males after a certain age. LDS Church disobeys all of this & more. Taking Bible literally- useless as a vague claim. Bible is to be taken in textual, historical, grammatical context & each book taken according to book's genre of literature
@harry4health Listen dude its not that hard to understand. Your getting off on the fact that you found someone that has something to do with the LDS church to argue with? Doesn't that say more than words that we can ever write say???? i mean come on man, all your answers are right there in front of you. All you have to do is review your work?
Marco- U complained my answers R before me. Does that mean I understood U correctly? U smear me-again-in twisting my motives,etc. I share because I care. If U understood Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15 & other reasons, U would know that Christians & even non-Christians should speak their own viewpoints when Mormons give their side of things. This is fair & makes sense.
Cuz U misrepresented me, U then used the distortion to make a pseudo-point.
Marco- UR own 10th LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said:
"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, OR he was ONE of the BIGGEST FRAUDS this world has EVER seen. There is NO middle ground. ..If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he SHOULD be REFUTED, and his doctrines SHOWN to be FALSE" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:188)
@harry4health Thats another great passage from yet another man of God. And here i almost thought you were rebuking Christ's church. Thanks again for the added support and encouraging words. Keep up the good work.
Marco- I am far from a pro-MormonISM person, but I do try to be accurate & fair. Liberal & Far Left groups use different tactics, including 'demonizing to marginalize' non-liberals who don't walk in lockstep with their errors, pressure & agitation, to further their goals. I hope all- Christian, Mormon, or otherwise, who reject that will work for real change this November.
I hope U read my posts to you below & reply. Anyway- take care & WORK for victory in November!
@harry4health Ok harry you've made it quite clear your far right on your political views. Your extremely anti mormon and you've got a bone to pick with anyone that thinks differently than you do right? Well great!!! Now i see the victory in that mind set?!?!?! Heck lets bring back the crusades and put humanity right back into the dark ages. HERE!!! HERE!!. Whos up next on the guillotine.
Marco, what makes me politically "FAR right", a typical FAR LEFT smear term
I see U ignored points & quotes I used & went off on a smear rant. U just gulliblly swallow extremist Far Left poison. How saintly of U! U must be ranting on all LDS, including General Authorities who aren't liberal, or Far Left, like U
How loving & toleRANT of U!
Ignore issues & personally attack.
U should try keeping your logic present & deal w/issues
U gave a positive post & now turn like a rabid attack dog
Moses (Deut 13 & 18), Jesus (Matt 7:15; 24:24, Jn 4:23-24), Paul (Acts 20:28-31/1 Cor/2 Cor 11:3-5,13-15/Gal 1:6-9 & all Gal/Eph 5:10-11/Titus 1:9), Peter (2 Peter), Jude (Jude 3, all Jude), John (John 4:23-24/1 John, Rev 2:2) exposed error/false teachers & told Christians to do so. Paul named names. Please read these.LDS D&C 71- call on them in public & let non-LDS bring "strong reasons"
@harry4health No not at all. I listen to all of Gods prophets. The ones from yesterday today and the ones to come. Everyone should get the opportunity to hear Gods words and live your life in tune with the teachings of Jesus Christ. Ask your local LDS missionary for help finding that sweet spirit of Christ that is missing from your life. You'll be glad you did!
Marco- truth is in what U ignored. BIBLE & even your LDS prophet JFS says EXPOSE false doctrine, etc.
One can have a "sweet spirit" without Mormonism.
If your church does not pass the test of comparing it w/Bible (Like Brigham Young said to do), then it cannot be the 'true church' w/the only true authority from God.
I met with missionaries a number of times. They can never answer essential questions about LDSism.
@harry4health Wow thats too bad. Because not only do our wonderful missionaries answer essential questions about being latter day saints. but so does the bible, the book of mormon, all prophets ancient and today, and most importantly Jesus Christ does. You just have to be open to living a life in tune with the teachings of Christ to hear the answers. Christ never let me down and he always gives me the right answers. Even when i don't want to hear them.
@harry4health again i think you may be mis informed again on what you think Mormons believe. If you would like to know what Latter day saints believe. You have 2 options either read the scriptures. Or why not just ask one?
Marcop-PT2: Bible & Mormonism contradict at crucial points here:
*LDS Jesus born to Elohim & goddess wife, Heavenly Mother, BECAME A God & 'atoned' in Gethsemane & Cross.
Bible says NT Jesus is not 1 of many 'true' Gods & paid it all by "the BLOOD OF the CROSS" & NO Gethsemane -ALL on Cross: Col 1:20, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
*LDS has male-only clerical priesthoods.
NT: 1 non-clerical spiritual priesthood for all Christians of any age or gender- 2 Peter 2:5,9
MarcoP-3: Robert Millett teaches evasion, disrespect & deception at BYU!
Ending of YouTube link for "Lying for the Lord" is: watch?v=Zzui8zUf4SQ
Millett says if LDS don't like non-LDS's question, answer the one the LDSer WANTED asked! That's ignoring non-LDS's question
*LDSism teaches if LDS don't believe it, testify they do anyway to others & that helps getting the LDS a testimony- that's lying & emotional self-conditioning: LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer, "The Candle of the Lord," Ensign 1/1983
1)If U sincerely believe I misunderstand, U can easily state where, why & use official LDS sources
2)Unless *I* specify otherwise, I clearly refer to the LDS CHURCH, NOT Mormons as individuals. Mormons are divided, evade, conceal, don't know. I use official LDS CHURCH sites & sources, other LDS materials, etc. I have asked Mormons & got evasion, etc. If LDS were trustworthy to be upfront, honest & know official views, etc, UR idea could have some validity
@harry4health Harry i think you have figured out by now that im not talking about any certain religion. To even debate about such things as whos right when it comes to religion is pointless. I'm talking directly to YOU and talking directly ABOUT YOU!!! Please understand that my will here is for interaction with YOU.
Marco- So, U R NON-Mormon? Aaaaaand U didn't substantiate UR baseless assertion that I "may be mis informed [sic] again on what [I] think Mormons believe". I ALSO said unless I say otherwise, I do NOT speak about what MORMONS as individuals believe, but the LDS CHURCH, which U evaded. I pointed out that U say I may be wrong on what MORMONS believe, but they R divided. U R to be specific. Now, please share with me on what U assume I "may" be wrong about MORMONS & specifically LDS CHURCH ITSELF
marcoP- I can substantiate all I say about the LDS Church below w/official LDS Church materials. Mormon confusion I list is from LDS on YouTube, other discussion groups, online otherwise, in person conversation, etc, in print, on tape/CD, etc. I can also give what the LDS CHURCH has said about ALL the list from official materials. I hope to hear a direct reply on the specifics on my latest posts and my former posts. That is honest discussion, not empty accusation with no evidence or specifics
MarcoP-Please answer my questions.. U asked me to "why not ask one [a question]". I have asked questions & am now waiting if U really are sincere in that request.
Also, when I PERSONALLY study Mormonism from the official materials and official websites, I take that as official, while INDIVIDUAL LDSers w/ their varying opinions do not represent LDS Church.
Living apostle MR Ballard wrote to me official materials "represent the [LDS] Church".
Marco- I am a person, so please answer issues. U charged that I am "misinformed about what MORMONS believe". U say this with nothing but empty allegation. I document, ask questions, and U don't answer any of it.
WHERE do U *feel* I am misinformed? I also don't refer to what MORMON PEOPLE believe, unless I specify. I refer to what the LDS CHURCH teaches/practices. Do U see the difference? Mormons aren't agreed, and not all of them are even open on what they or their church teaches/practices.
MarcoP8- U aren't speaking of any specific religion? How is this true with UR own words"
"what you think MORMONS believe. ...what LATTER DAY SAINTS believe. You have 2 options either read the scriptures [I take it this doesn't refer to the Koran, but accepted MORMON scriptures, correct?]. Or why not just ask ONE? "
You seem to switch & contradict URself here.
I've asked many Mormons & get evasion, not knowing, divided on what LDS Church teaches. I go to official sources, etc- MUCH better!
@harry4health Good luck in your own personal hell you have created for yourself. I can't imagin what it must be like for you to go threw life in constant debate with yourself over you own decisions? Wish i could of helped but good luck with it.
@marcopolo8765 To hold a negitive energy with something for 30,40, even 50 + years. That to me is the best example of a personal hell that i can think of. The results speak for themself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Pretty basic stuff here. But again good luck with that. Sorry i couldn't help.
Marco- U disagree with10th LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith?:
"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, OR he was ONE of the BIGGEST FRAUDS this world has EVER seen. There is NO middle ground. ..If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he SHOULD be REFUTED, and his doctrines SHOWN to be FALSE" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:188)
marcopolo8765- Do U know who smears those who share & document, & insults & demonizes those who disagree? That's right- liberals, U & many Mormons/LDSers. 'Satan' loves this'. It is not honest to avoid the issues & documentation, evade & avoid all of it for a baseless accusatory smear.
LDS Church & LDSers regularly misrepresent & twist non-LDS doctrines like the Trinity & evangelical salvation beliefs & then seek to pseudo-disprove them. That is the logical fallacy of the 'strawman'.
Marco-I'm also following words of LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith:
"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. ..If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he SHOULD be REFUTED, and his doctrines SHOWN to be FALSE"-Doctrines of Salvation 1:188
Who's the idiot that marked all of the website link lists as Spam, when they aren't? They directly relate to what H4H is talking about & documents the Judas gospel as fake and the Mormon guy as sloppy and really not doing his homework. Please read all of H4H's posts that are marked as spam. They are not. Someone did the same thing when I posted the same one H4H gave.
Details of Acts 15 is not concerning LDS Church practice. Acts 15 shows that APOSTLES & ELDERS CHOSE prophets to go, NOT LEAD the ENTIRE church. U misapplied & didn't answer the point
Acts 15 shows ELDERS & apostles chose 2 prophets for specific reason. The Christian men decided, THEN ELDERS & APOSTLES chose.
ENTIRE Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 UNIFY to show apostles were the top leaders over the entire universal church. U haven't shown otherwise. THAT is the core issue
Jonny- IF U actually read the sources I gave, like the article on CARM, U would have reasons against GofJ. U just grab at a quote & think it suffices. Sloppy. It says COULD. U NEED to READ what I referenced. Nat'l Geographic didn't do a great work in article & UR quote is worthless for the facts & references I gave. GofJ CONTRADICTS BIBLE & LDS CHURCH in history, theology, worldview. It is GNOSTIC & NT scriptures denounce Gnostic nonsense. Honest, careful research would be good for U to do
@jonnygotz2343 have you missed literally everything i've written? when you call mormonism the only true christians you ARE attacking other christians, and then you get angry when there is a rebuttal..
@jonnygotz2343 The catholic church has many problems as well... (it has been influenced greatly by the roman empire and government)... whats your point? This is you avoiding the problem at hand... Are you not defensive after they say this to you? The mormon church has made the first offense, and so it is only my defense. You claim that you are true christianity while you do not truly follow christ so how can you be? it makes no sense, its an attack and counterfeit, a substitute.
@jonnygotz2343 How do you not see the hypocrisy in your exchange with me? I make a claim and then back it up, and then you just say... well you are too! and you are worse, and na na nan na na na...... its just a childish circle. I'm making a real point here. You do not follow christ by the simple reason that you do not follow his word! Paul warns about following any words or books that do not follow that of the Bible.
@jonnygotz2343 I am a substitute for what? for christianity? You realize the hypocrisy again!? You are calling the original the substitute, this is a logical fallacy. By your logic, Jesus, the apostles, and all who have come to christ in honest belief are all damned to hell or just dont get to live with God (despite Jesus being God)... because they didnt follow your ways, joseph's ways. Dont you see that christianity is about christ and belief on him, not smithianity.
@MrHappiness777 no we believe after the apostles were Killed. The Authority to act in the Name of God was Lost. And it had to be restored!!! The scriptures said there will be a great falling away and it happened. we follow Christ and his teachings and not of men. we have a prophet on the earth today. we have apostles like the original church had. We have baptism for the Dead which the original church had
@jonnygotz2343 Why was the authority to act in the name of God lost? Jesus said go and make disciples of the world, and you have the authority through the holy spirit! We all have been given the authority if we have believed. The scriptures said there would be a great falling away IN THE END TIMES.... not in 18 somthin--somethin--... The apostles were people who had seen Jesus and had been counseled by him, not just any person.
@jonnygotz2343 sorry... but there was not a "great falling away" when joseph came around, in fact most churches were growing immensely in the united states.
@jonnygotz2343 also if you ACTUALLY believe that the mormon church is the true church then how could you believe that there was a falling away, this was a great gain and not loss for you. Also how can you believe there was ever a following at all? Anyways 6 million africans convert a year and africa has exponentially changed in recent years... south america, china and much of the world... there is by no means yet "the great falling away", unless you are talking about american culture right now
@MrHappiness777 south america is growing in the lds church and temples being built in africa and china!!! just because a church grows doesnt matter. its truth that matters with growth
@jonnygotz2343 It certainly doesnt matter if a church grows.... especially because islam has 1 billion people but that WAS NOT MY POINT!!! my goodness how do you miss these easy points.. YOU SAID that the Bible said in the end times there will be a great falling away. and i was showing you how the church is growing and not "falling away" like you said. Although in the western world we ARE approaching a falling away. this is irrelevant though because what we were talking about was in the 1800's
@jonnygotz2343 well considering i just explained to you why that is wrong, that cannot be true.... anyways... you have yet to show me any good reason or sign for a new and improved "true gospel", let alone, have i not seen a reason for a new gospel at all!
@jonnygotz2343 Also your prophets do not make it through the tests in the BIble.... in deutoronomy it says that if they are a real prophet and they make a prophecy it will come to pass, if not, they ought to be stoned for they were never truly a prophet of God, if they said something that was a lie or just not true-- it means it came from man. Also prophets actually were told what to do from God in tough matters, but we all know that your prophets are just ordinary men who were chosen by men.
@jonnygotz2343 First off, did the ancient church continue to do this? No! after the apostles left and made disciples of the world they did not continue to this, and that never made the church any less than what it was. This was also a choice of the apostles who are but men, and they did it for comfort, it was by no means biblical. Also where does it say he was "righteous by God", only somebody who believes on Jesus is righteous before God (and that is Biblical!).
@MrHappiness777 Traditionally, the Twelve Apostles include Peter (whom some denominations consider the "Prince of the Apostles");[3] Andrew, James the Greater, James the Lesser, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, Thaddeus, Simon, and Judas Iscariot. Judas had been one of the Twelve, but he betrayed Jesus and killed himself.[4] With Judas gone, Matthias became one of the Twelve.[Ac 1:15-26]
@jonnygotz2343 Matthias was chosen by man, the rest were chosen by Jesus... paul was chosen by God as the real apostle.... but i would have to quote far too many verses to show you that.
@jonnygotz2343 the true apostles were chosen by Jesus himself, and their purpose was served, now there is no point in having apostles, and there is no Jesus or apostles to choose them. Are you honestly going to try and support the church just choosing some guys to call apostles on their own as being biblical!?!?! this is absurdity.
@jonnygotz2343 why would he chose them now? thats not proof! The Bible says that the timing was perfect and right in that time period for what went on. Why would need apostles now?! Jesus gave us the holy spirit! he lives within us... how ludicrous. Plus who has seen jesus, had contact with apostles? or any of those sorts of people? that is a crazy conclusion youve made.
@MrHappiness777 we need a apostles and prophets so that we can have the holy spirit be we need them also so the we can hear directly from God. In the book of Amos its says God does nothing except thru is prophets
jonny - Amos 3:7 is in the Jewish/Old Covenant & for a specific time period. Read the New Testament- Christian God did A LOT without prophets. The NT apostles were the highest leadership position and none were called prophets. NT in Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 has apostles "first" and prophets "secondarily". LDS Church reverses it & changes the definition & role. Then, NONE of the New Testament was written by NT prophets, right? "The Lord God ... reveal[ed]" LOTS without prophets in NT church
JONNY- U must learn how to not only make assertions but SUBSTANTIATE them. I HAVE U Bible that refutes UR empty, mere assertion. Now, go back & honestly deal w/issues & ALL passages I used. The NT of the CHRISTIAN Bible NEVER says apostles R prophets. U can't find ANYONE in the church called a seer & there's no proof ALL apostles gave revelation. 1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11 & Acts 13-15 shows apostle & prophet are SEPARATE IN NT church. YOUR church changes the callings. Read it again & ANSWER verses
Jonny-Acts 13:1-3; 14:14; 15:1-4,6 ALL separate apostle from prophet. NO LDS line of apostles becoming NT prophets
1 Cor 12:28-"*First* APOSTLES, *secondarily* prophets". Eph 4:11- "He gave [PAST tense] SOME to be APOSTLES, and some to be PROPHETS".
Wha6t isn't fact is an apostle becoming a prophet and having a prophet above the apostles in the New Covenant church. U gave me empty words, but the Bible's NT scriptures demonstrate clearly that U R wrong.
Jonny-U make a one liner w/ no reference to what UR referring to. Can U not write better? My posts showed many faults with LDS ism.
NT church didn't have a prophet as the top leader, but apostles, and Acts 17:11, 2 Tim 2:15 shows that Christians & all are to examine living top church leaders by already written scriptures. If modern revelation claims don't pass the test, they are to be rejected.
@harry4health No your wrong the modern revelation overrides old revelation and the book of AMos says that God does nothing except reveals his secrets to the prophets
@harry4health Paul was a prophet and apostle James was a prophet and apostles when the apostles of old were around they were apostle prophets and revelators as the apostles are prophets seers and revelators
Jonny- I know what you sustain UR General Authorities as. I DIDN'T ask U what YOUR church does. I asked what NEW TESTAMENT prophet wrote NT books or letters? PROVE it with NT scripture references/quotes that the person U use FROM the NEW Covenant church is SPECIFICALLY called a true NT prophet. WHERE in NEW TESTAMENT is Paul called a prophet, as one question.
Do NOT give me repeated LDS ideas. SHOW me from NEW TESTAMENT ITSELF- SPECIFICALLY CALLED a prophet in the NEW Testament church
@harry4health No need cause you wont believe anything i tell youThe word "prophet" comes from the Greek prophetes, which means "inspired teacher." Although neither the Greek term nor its Hebrew equivalent, nabi, initially required the function of foretelling, all prophecy looks to the future. Since the Lord has chosen some of his servants to be foretellers--to disclose, sometimes in specific terms, momentous events that are to occur
2 TIM 2:15-Diligent to ACCURATELY handling the word
Acts 17:11 - They were more noble than others, for they examined the WRITTEN SCRIPTURES *DAILY* to see WHETHER these things are true OR NOT
These passages show the written scriptures are the standard given by the original NT church to discern truth from error. U & LDS Church rebel against Acts 17:11 & reverse the NT order. Christians & all are to use written scripture to test living church leaders, not test scripture by leaders
@harry4health Just cause its says apostles first and then apostles dont mean that it has to be in that order thats like saying, i want ice cream hamburger and fries they all are included in your order but that doesnt mean the waitress is gonna give you the ice cream first
JONNY- 1 Cor 12:28 uses words to SHOW rank. Also, as I have said, the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT demonstrates that the apostles were the top group of leaders in the universal NT church of the 1st century. Paul & Peter were never called prophets. NO person called a prophet was the top leader of the earthly church. U haven't shown otherwise. ALL of the NT demonstrates the apostles were highest leadership. Agabus was UNDER the apostles & apostles sent prophets, not the other way around.
JonG- Other Mormon confusion: Is there a Heavenly Mother? How was Jesus birthed within Mary's womb? Who is Adam- God the Father (past) or not (present doctrine)? Did LDS prophet B Young teach Adam God (McConkie in letter said yes) or not? LDS apostle McConkie said Young, a PROPHET, was conflicting in his teaching on the doctrine of Adam as Father God, but DID teach it. Did Adam come into Eden WITH a body, or created from this earth? Does God the Father still progress in knowledge?
Jonny- Christian churches are without rudders? The LDS Church has been tossed about by being wishy-washy & contradicted on different doctrines & practices by LDS prophets, LDS Church, LDS scriptures teaching conflicting things,etc. Is Elohim the Father an exalted man who BECAME A God like we can become? Worship Jesus or not? Is it worship Type-A for Father & Worship Type-B for Jesus, redefine worship related to Jesus?How literal is the LDS doctrine of mortals becoming Gods & goddesses/Godhood?
@harry4health Besides the apostles named in the New Testament (whose body of 12 was meant to be maintained, as seen by the selection of Matthias to replace the deceased traitor Judas, Acts 1:24-26), we have other names of men who were prophets, after the time of Christ. Acts 15:32 names two: "And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them."
JONg- Where in the NT are both Silas & Judas (NOT Iscariot) called apostles? As I showed above, certain were apostles & the prophets JNI & Silas were NOT called apostles. Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 separate the callings clearly. What NT books were written by Silas & Judas? How much did God do in the NEW Covenant church of the first century without Christians who were specifically titled prophets?
@harry4health read acts 15:32 it says they were called prophets themselves, The gospel of Judas was written by judas, And with out silas or judas the church wouldnt have grown and they too died and it cause an apostasy
JonGot-U seem not to know Judas1 from Judas2. Judas, who allegedly wrote the Gospel of Judas is J ISCARIOT. He was DEAD in Acts *!*. Acts *15* has ANOTHER Judas, hence- Judas2. U confuse UR Judases. Sound evidence shows the Gospel of Judas is a fake. It also contradicts the Bible & LDS Church. LDS seem so eager to add books to scripture, they don't always have the sense to really research Christian literature, etc., exposing it. It says Jesus ASKED Judas to betray him, etc. Load of crap
JON- UR empty semi-reply to my posts on Judas shows how weak UR case is. U used Gnostic garbage Gospel of Judas & R wrong. The BIBLE & LDS CHURCH do NOT agree with GofJ. READ IT! There are several or more parts that are plainly against the Bible & is Gnostic gobbledeegoop. There is NO chance GofJ & Bible R right. BIBLE doesn't have Judas as being a hero, or Jesus, etc. U deal with nothing of the details that disprove UR opinions. Empty. MAY have? U went from dogmatic to speculation. Empty.
JonG-U missed what I said- I asked U, NOT to list NT prophets- I could have given U the verses U gave, but where are the apostles, specifically Paul, are specifically called a "PROPHET". U haven't answered yet. Acts 15 actually shows apostles are NOT prophets- Acts 15:2,4,6,22-23 have Paul as apostle, Judas (NOT Iscariot) & Silas as prophets. It also shows that apostles sent prophets. NO evidence of a prophet having higher position than the apostles.
Jonny-NT shows Matthias replaced Judas for a SPECIFIC reason & SPECIFIC time: Acts 1 plainly shows that Peter said that the replacement HAD be one of "the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--BEGINNING WITH the baptism of John". NO OTHER apostle is shown to replace ANY OTHER supposed office position in the apostles of the New Testament church. They were just added. NO LDS Church rigid practice. UR LDS copied post doesn't hold up under Acts 17:11
@harry4health apostles and prophets are all the same in the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. we have a main prophets and the apostles are prophets as well
JonG- U don't have to tell me basic LDS stuff about LDSism. Also, your prophet-president WAS an apostle. LDS apostles are called prophets in a secondary sense. Their Quorum is APOSTLES.
The NT doesn't show they took apostles and made one the top prophet over the entire church. Therefore, the LDS concept U share is NOT from the first century, New Testament church.
NT separates teacher from prophet and prophet from apostle-Acts 13:1,1 Cor 12:28, Acts 15:22
@harry4health 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Judas and Silas the prophets were above Paul and Barnabas, The were chief men among the brethren
JON-Yup- Acts 15:22, but it doesn't prove the LDS Church view of a prophet over apostles & the prophet-president being the top leader in the universal church.
Acts 15:22 states that apostles & ELDERS sent specific apostles Paul & Barnabas WITH a few NT prophets TO Antioch. A NT prophet did NOT send them. Also, apostles were separate from prophet, as this verse also shows, as does 1 Cor 12:28. Paul was not a prophet. Silas wasn't an apostle. Prophet(s) did NOT send the others or the prophets.
Jonny- No, *I* gave evidence. U give mere assertion without proof.
Acts 15:22: "Then it seemed good to THE APOSTLES and the ELDERS, with the whole church, to CHOOSE men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas" & THEY CHOSE prophets J2 & Silas to be sent with a few specific apostles. The text plainly shows U wrong. U choose not to admit it. U violate Acts 17:11 & 2 Tim 2:15
ONNY-It calls Silas & Judas2 (Not Iscariot) prophets. They were NOT apostles. U prove nothing. Entire Book of Acts shows apostles were over prophets. Acts & 1 Cor 14:29 show NT prophets were local to congregations. Acts 15:22 show it pleased the APOSTLES & ELDERS to SEND prophets, Judas2 & Silas. UR own verse doesn't prove UR point. I asked what NT books- Gospel of Judas is NOT in NT & is Gnostic heresy. NO real evidence Judas wrote it. Research better, dude. I have evidence GofJ is a fraud
JonG- No, UR 1 single verse says nothing of the sort. QUOTE & DEMONSTRATE your mere assertion that the prophets were chief among them, then show me what it refers to from the text.
Jonny- IF U actually read the sources I gave, like the article on CARM, U would have reasons against GofJ. U just grab at a quote & think it suffices. Sloppy. It says COULD. U NEED to READ what I referenced. Nat'l Geographic didn't do a great work in article & UR quote is worthless for the facts & references I gave. GofJ CONTRADICTS BIBLE & LDS CHURCH in history, theology, worldview. It is GNOSTIC & NT scriptures denounce Gnostic nonsense. Honest, careful research would be good for U to do
@harry4health the apostles of the church pick the prophet in the lds church which fits with the scripture references that youve shown also the elders of the church, sustain the prophet after he is chosen
JONNY- Details of Acts 15 is not concerning UR LDS Church practice. Acts 15 shows that APOSTLES & ELDERS CHOSE the prophets to go on a mission, not lead the universal church. U misapplied & didn't answer the point.
Acts 15 shows ELDERS & apostles chose 2 prophets for specific reason. The Christian men decided, THEN ELDERS & APOSTLES chose.
The ENTIRE Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 UNIFY to show apostles were the top leaders over the entire universal church. U haven't shown otherwise. THAT is the core issue
@harry4health the National Geographic states that it is "One of the most significant biblical finds of the last century'a lost gospel that could challenge what is believed about the story of Judas and his betrayal of Jesus." which dates the time it was written
thats a lie. its not required to serve a mission to go to heaven.
austindaw3 5 months ago 2
I'd watch out Mormonism is a very sneaky cult they are wolfs in sheepskin clothing just like jahovas wittness check out way of the master Mormonism n youtube
mamainmancj 6 months ago
@mamainmancj Way of the master don't know what they are talking about.
LDStothecore 2 months ago
Jesus!!! Not Joseph Smith!! Amen:)
mylovemymoose 7 months ago
that first quote about believing to be saved is taken out of the the context that the guy to which it was said was soon after baptized, and all his household too, into the NT church.
The thing about Joseph Smith judging folks of these last days is intended no differently from the way Jesus told his original twelve that they would be judges in the resurection (matt 19 28)
and... is he preaching against mormons in his own church? lame. might as well say that lds are a threat only to his income
PCEggo 8 months ago
I think Brigham Young commited an excess. Cometió un exceso. But that doesn´t ilegitimate the church. We worship Jesuschrist and the most importan in this church is being holy, to live holy in the fear of God and that means "works".
I am not going to answer attacks.
Love and Peace
dorisfenella 9 months ago
This guy forgot that Christ said if you don't accept Christ's messengers, just as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were, you do not accept Christ.
majinish 10 months ago
@majinish But they weren't Christ's Messengers. They contradicted what christ preached.
bruins6064 9 months ago
@bruins6064 Yes they were messengers of Christ and no they didn't contradict Christ's teachings.
majinish 9 months ago
@majinish Isa 8;20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Now Lds "scripture"... There are many gods, (M Doct, p. 163). you have the potential of becoming a god, (T of JSmith, p. 345-347, 354.) now Isaiah 43:10
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
blutowpi 4 months ago
@blutowpi Bluto, there are "gods many, and lords many". And before you knock what I said in quotes I recommend you learn where the quote comes from. Deification is a Christian doctrine.
majinish 4 months ago
if "NO ONE" escapes hell w/o jesus (his words not mine) what about good ppl who r atheists or deistic or budihts or what about babies or ppl who've never heard the gospel that die? how is it fair to punish ppl for having a problem called sin that they inheritted unjustly because of things 2 ppl did 6000 years ago. then provide no evidence that there is a heaven or hell, and place millions of ppl throughout history in places that never recieved the gospel? smh
Keenanville09 1 year ago
@Keenanville09 Read your bible dude! Now that Jesus has come there is no other way to God the Father. "No man comes to the father exept through me". I think that sums it up pretty good. People before Jesus and who haven't heard of him will be judged according to their faith in God. Any more dumb questions?
AmeKeaka 11 months ago
@AmeKeaka
u only adressed 1 part of my comment and u did so extreemely ignorantly. if u read the OLD TESTIMENT (b4 jesus) god goes around slaughtering nation after nation for not believing in "the one true god". having faith in any god wasnt enough. besides, like i said in my previous comment, there isnt any evidence to support heaven or hell so its an illogical position to believe they exist.
Keenanville09 11 months ago
@Keenanville09 That wasnt god doing that....that was satan in disguise....
sararudd92 11 months ago
When I heard that quote about needing consent from Joe Smith I remembered reading about another person (not Mormon) teaching that the 12 Apostles (you know, Peter, James, John, etc) would "...also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." One of their followers also taught "...that the saints shall judge the world?...Know ye not that we shall judge angels?..." Who comes up with this stuff? And this was before Mormons! What would Jesus say about these teachings?!
MrThink4Fun 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
MrThink4Fun -
About NT Jesus saying they will judge the 12 tribes & Paul saying Christians will judge angels: U left out a lot that divides the J Smith reference. The NT doesn't say judge for what & etc- NO details. One CONTEXT is at/right after the second coming of Jesus- in LDS theology, that starts the 1,000 reign of Jesus on earth. That's before the Last Great Judgment Day
Young said Smith has to approve us for salvation- JOD.
Jesus: upon saving faith:"Is passed from death into life."
harry4health 1 year ago
You know who else puts truth together with alot of personal opinion, and tries to make it all sound like fact? Thats right!!! Satan. Is anyone seeing the big pitcher here yet?All men have opinions its only the extremely crafty ones that can make theres sound like facts. Trust in the holy ghost. He'll help guide you in the right direction. Never look for it from a man.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Well, Good thing there isnt any documentation of any kind that disproves Christ or his Church. But the will of man has and always will try its best to disprove things that it doesn't understand. I suggest that you try and understand what its like to live your life in accordance with God and his laws. Do that and then we might understand each other a bit more. You might even begin to understand a few things you never thought were possilbe even.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
marco -UR condescending & empty. UR post could be copied & pasted to ANY religious person of any religious group. It shows nothing, except U assume there's no evidence against LDSism, when there is. If U don't care about evidence at UR core, but go w/ a subjective feelings-based testimony, why would it matter? U smear me by asserting I don't supposedly understand.
UR drive-by insulting smearing shows UR heart. Maybe if U want an honest discussion, U "might .. understand"
I understand LDSism well
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Just because you have hardened you heart against something doesn't mean you understand it. Just means you dont want to accept it. Anytime someone speaks ill about something and tries to get others to believe as feel the same way they do about it? Is that understanding? Is that love? Is that the way God wants us to act? My apologies for my bluntness. I have no cause to smear you. But that "feeling" its called the spirit of Christ. We should all have the chance to feel it daily.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
marco- Is it love to expose error for the Christian? Yes. From the non-Christian? Yes. Why? Millions know beliefs have consequences & Paul eternally condemned all who preach a false gospel or "ANOTHER Jesus"& those who preach them "are FALSE apostles, DECEITFUL workmen, DISGUISING themselves as apostles of Christ. and are "HIS [SATAN'S] servants"! (Gal 1:6-9,2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15)
The issue is whether LDS will disregard Paul & violate Acts 17:11 to test living church leaders by written scripture
harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Honest discussion would intale real events and real personal experiences. Unfortunately reality differs a bit for everyone. I'm sorry i cant deny my very real experiences of God and living a life in tune with his teachings. It has enriched my life and taught me not to harden my heart against anyone. We should all be so lucky as to have that kind of peace in our life.But I suppose some do not want it.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
marcopolo8765 - Just because U have hardened UR heart against the truth does not erase facts & evidence, biblical & otherwise, because U use feelings/experience, all subjective, as UR standard of truth. The Bible gives objective standards- Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15, Deut 13 & 18, Acts 17:11, etc.
Honest discussion for someone who says there's is the only true church of Jesus would entail the Bible as the standard of already written scripture. U have forsaken that, or never believed it
harry4health 1 year ago
marco - U claim love & nice feelings, but U condescended then & U continue. Sorry, that is false. I DO understand, so stop insulting me & say again that I don't. I UNDERSTAND Mormonism well. I disagree. It is telling U don't want to believe some can understand & disagree.
Millions have feelings they 'know' are of God, but they testify to doctrines, etc., that contradict LDSism. Feelings are not the NT church standard-Acts 17:11.
Jer 17:9- "The heart is deceitful above all things"
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Well good thing mormons dont go after what they want in there heart then. I am so glad to have the spirit of Christ with me as a guide. Instead of following the wants and desires of my heart. Everyone deserves to have that spirit in there life. Ask your local LDS missionary for help finding that sweet spirit of Christ that is missing from your life. You'll be glad you did.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
Marco- Jer 17:9 says HEART is DECEITFUL above all things. World today wants us to use subjective ways to 'know' truth. Glad I don't fall for the world's ways & call it Christian. LDS "spirit of Christ" is another way to keep the true biblical standards from your mind to guard UR heart. I already gave some Bible w/objective standards to know/test truth- U ignored & didn't address them: Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15, Deut 13 & 18, Acts 17:11, etc.
People have a sweet spirit outside of LDSism
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health If they do then where is yours?
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
@harry4health Hey just because Most mormons take what the bible says literally and follow its teaching a lot more closely than most christians do doesnt mean we believe it. It just means we like to do what it says we should do? Is that so wrong?
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
MARCO-In the official April 1977 General Conference, printed in the LDS Church magazine, the "Ensign", Seventy Bernard B. Brockbank, stated:
"It is TRUE that many of the Christian churches worship a DIFFERENT Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ... We CANNOT obtain salvation and eternal life by worshipping FAKE Christs or by living the doctrines and commandments of men."
- Ensign, May 1977, p 26-27
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health amen brother , amen. That was a great issue. And aint it so true to. Your preacher man can't bring you salvation. Only Christ can. But if your preacher isn't in tune with the spirit of Christ. Then where does leave the congregation and people like you. A little out in the dark id say. Getting a relationship with the savior, a real one. is the Only thing that will matter. Following what your preachers tells ya. Probably not going to help
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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Marco-What U really said is that I am in the dark because "[my] preacher]" is. He can't be in the light if he isn't in the only true church of Mormonism, has no divine authority, doesn't have the 'Holy Ghost' because UR priesthood didn't give it to him, has a corrupted Bible (BOM 1 Nephi 13) & doesn't have supposed 'true'/LDS prophet & leaders
Then LDS smear us as anti-Mormon when we oppose this
Following what your bishop & LDS prophet Monson is not going to help U. 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15, Gal 1:6-9
harry4health 1 year ago
Marco-It's hard to address non-specifics.
NT says apostles were top leaders over whole church, evangelists were not patriarchs for converted but preached gospel to non-Christians (Acts 8), 2 Peter 2:5,9 has a priesthood of all Christians, not just some of males after a certain age. LDS Church disobeys all of this & more. Taking Bible literally- useless as a vague claim. Bible is to be taken in textual, historical, grammatical context & each book taken according to book's genre of literature
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Listen dude its not that hard to understand. Your getting off on the fact that you found someone that has something to do with the LDS church to argue with? Doesn't that say more than words that we can ever write say???? i mean come on man, all your answers are right there in front of you. All you have to do is review your work?
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
Marco- U complained my answers R before me. Does that mean I understood U correctly? U smear me-again-in twisting my motives,etc. I share because I care. If U understood Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15 & other reasons, U would know that Christians & even non-Christians should speak their own viewpoints when Mormons give their side of things. This is fair & makes sense.
Cuz U misrepresented me, U then used the distortion to make a pseudo-point.
Hope U answer my responses
PLZ read Titus 1:9, Jude 3
harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
Marco- UR own 10th LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said:
"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, OR he was ONE of the BIGGEST FRAUDS this world has EVER seen. There is NO middle ground. ..If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he SHOULD be REFUTED, and his doctrines SHOWN to be FALSE" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:188)
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Thats another great passage from yet another man of God. And here i almost thought you were rebuking Christ's church. Thanks again for the added support and encouraging words. Keep up the good work.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
Marco- I am far from a pro-MormonISM person, but I do try to be accurate & fair. Liberal & Far Left groups use different tactics, including 'demonizing to marginalize' non-liberals who don't walk in lockstep with their errors, pressure & agitation, to further their goals. I hope all- Christian, Mormon, or otherwise, who reject that will work for real change this November.
I hope U read my posts to you below & reply. Anyway- take care & WORK for victory in November!
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Ok harry you've made it quite clear your far right on your political views. Your extremely anti mormon and you've got a bone to pick with anyone that thinks differently than you do right? Well great!!! Now i see the victory in that mind set?!?!?! Heck lets bring back the crusades and put humanity right back into the dark ages. HERE!!! HERE!!. Whos up next on the guillotine.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
Marco, what makes me politically "FAR right", a typical FAR LEFT smear term
I see U ignored points & quotes I used & went off on a smear rant. U just gulliblly swallow extremist Far Left poison. How saintly of U! U must be ranting on all LDS, including General Authorities who aren't liberal, or Far Left, like U
How loving & toleRANT of U!
Ignore issues & personally attack.
U should try keeping your logic present & deal w/issues
U gave a positive post & now turn like a rabid attack dog
harry4health 1 year ago
U must be ranting & railing against the Bible writers & JESUS:
Eph 4:15- speak TRUTH in LOVE (U lack BOTH)
Moses (Deut 13 & 18), Jesus (Matt 7:15; 24:24, Jn 4:23-24), Paul (Acts 20:28-31/1 Cor/2 Cor 11:3-5,13-15/Gal 1:6-9 & all Gal/Eph 5:10-11/Titus 1:9), Peter (2 Peter), Jude (Jude 3, all Jude), John (John 4:23-24/1 John, Rev 2:2) exposed error/false teachers & told Christians to do so. Paul named names. Please read these.LDS D&C 71- call on them in public & let non-LDS bring "strong reasons"
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health No not at all. I listen to all of Gods prophets. The ones from yesterday today and the ones to come. Everyone should get the opportunity to hear Gods words and live your life in tune with the teachings of Jesus Christ. Ask your local LDS missionary for help finding that sweet spirit of Christ that is missing from your life. You'll be glad you did!
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
Marco- truth is in what U ignored. BIBLE & even your LDS prophet JFS says EXPOSE false doctrine, etc.
One can have a "sweet spirit" without Mormonism.
If your church does not pass the test of comparing it w/Bible (Like Brigham Young said to do), then it cannot be the 'true church' w/the only true authority from God.
I met with missionaries a number of times. They can never answer essential questions about LDSism.
Pleasze open mind & heart & study:
MRM*org
UTLM*org
Take care
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Wow thats too bad. Because not only do our wonderful missionaries answer essential questions about being latter day saints. but so does the bible, the book of mormon, all prophets ancient and today, and most importantly Jesus Christ does. You just have to be open to living a life in tune with the teachings of Christ to hear the answers. Christ never let me down and he always gives me the right answers. Even when i don't want to hear them.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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MARCO-PT1: Remember if U get anti-biblical answers, it isn't NT Jesus, but "ANOTHER Jesus" that Paul condemned in 2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15.
Do YOU *really* want to hear NT Jesus if it contradicts LDS Church?
NT Jesus upheld the OT, that gives tests for prophets- 100% prophecy fulfillment & doctrine of Deity (Deut 13 & 18).
LDS Deity doctrine:
*LDS Father was once a mortal on another earth became A God.
*Bible God was always God, was never a mortal who became a God-Ps 90:2, Hosea 11:9,Jn 4:23-24
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health again i think you may be mis informed again on what you think Mormons believe. If you would like to know what Latter day saints believe. You have 2 options either read the scriptures. Or why not just ask one?
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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Marcop-PT2: Bible & Mormonism contradict at crucial points here:
*LDS Jesus born to Elohim & goddess wife, Heavenly Mother, BECAME A God & 'atoned' in Gethsemane & Cross.
Bible says NT Jesus is not 1 of many 'true' Gods & paid it all by "the BLOOD OF the CROSS" & NO Gethsemane -ALL on Cross: Col 1:20, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
*LDS has male-only clerical priesthoods.
NT: 1 non-clerical spiritual priesthood for all Christians of any age or gender- 2 Peter 2:5,9
NT Jesus would not give LDS answers here
harry4health 1 year ago
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MarcoP-3: Robert Millett teaches evasion, disrespect & deception at BYU!
Ending of YouTube link for "Lying for the Lord" is: watch?v=Zzui8zUf4SQ
Millett says if LDS don't like non-LDS's question, answer the one the LDSer WANTED asked! That's ignoring non-LDS's question
*LDSism teaches if LDS don't believe it, testify they do anyway to others & that helps getting the LDS a testimony- that's lying & emotional self-conditioning: LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer, "The Candle of the Lord," Ensign 1/1983
harry4health 1 year ago
MARCO-1: U assert w/ no evidence.
1)If U sincerely believe I misunderstand, U can easily state where, why & use official LDS sources
2)Unless *I* specify otherwise, I clearly refer to the LDS CHURCH, NOT Mormons as individuals. Mormons are divided, evade, conceal, don't know. I use official LDS CHURCH sites & sources, other LDS materials, etc. I have asked Mormons & got evasion, etc. If LDS were trustworthy to be upfront, honest & know official views, etc, UR idea could have some validity
CONT
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Harry i think you have figured out by now that im not talking about any certain religion. To even debate about such things as whos right when it comes to religion is pointless. I'm talking directly to YOU and talking directly ABOUT YOU!!! Please understand that my will here is for interaction with YOU.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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Marco- So, U R NON-Mormon? Aaaaaand U didn't substantiate UR baseless assertion that I "may be mis informed [sic] again on what [I] think Mormons believe". I ALSO said unless I say otherwise, I do NOT speak about what MORMONS as individuals believe, but the LDS CHURCH, which U evaded. I pointed out that U say I may be wrong on what MORMONS believe, but they R divided. U R to be specific. Now, please share with me on what U assume I "may" be wrong about MORMONS & specifically LDS CHURCH ITSELF
harry4health 1 year ago
marcoP- I can substantiate all I say about the LDS Church below w/official LDS Church materials. Mormon confusion I list is from LDS on YouTube, other discussion groups, online otherwise, in person conversation, etc, in print, on tape/CD, etc. I can also give what the LDS CHURCH has said about ALL the list from official materials. I hope to hear a direct reply on the specifics on my latest posts and my former posts. That is honest discussion, not empty accusation with no evidence or specifics
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Is there a person left in there harry or am i just talking to a emotionally driven machine?
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
MarcoP-Please answer my questions.. U asked me to "why not ask one [a question]". I have asked questions & am now waiting if U really are sincere in that request.
Also, when I PERSONALLY study Mormonism from the official materials and official websites, I take that as official, while INDIVIDUAL LDSers w/ their varying opinions do not represent LDS Church.
Living apostle MR Ballard wrote to me official materials "represent the [LDS] Church".
LDSism drives by emotion- D&C 9, BOM Moroni 10 & intro
harry4health 1 year ago
Marco- I am a person, so please answer issues. U charged that I am "misinformed about what MORMONS believe". U say this with nothing but empty allegation. I document, ask questions, and U don't answer any of it.
WHERE do U *feel* I am misinformed? I also don't refer to what MORMON PEOPLE believe, unless I specify. I refer to what the LDS CHURCH teaches/practices. Do U see the difference? Mormons aren't agreed, and not all of them are even open on what they or their church teaches/practices.
harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
MarcoP8- U aren't speaking of any specific religion? How is this true with UR own words"
"what you think MORMONS believe. ...what LATTER DAY SAINTS believe. You have 2 options either read the scriptures [I take it this doesn't refer to the Koran, but accepted MORMON scriptures, correct?]. Or why not just ask ONE? "
You seem to switch & contradict URself here.
I've asked many Mormons & get evasion, not knowing, divided on what LDS Church teaches. I go to official sources, etc- MUCH better!
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Good luck in your own personal hell you have created for yourself. I can't imagin what it must be like for you to go threw life in constant debate with yourself over you own decisions? Wish i could of helped but good luck with it.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
@marcopolo8765 To hold a negitive energy with something for 30,40, even 50 + years. That to me is the best example of a personal hell that i can think of. The results speak for themself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Pretty basic stuff here. But again good luck with that. Sorry i couldn't help.
marcopolo8765 1 year ago
Marco- U disagree with10th LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith?:
"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, OR he was ONE of the BIGGEST FRAUDS this world has EVER seen. There is NO middle ground. ..If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he SHOULD be REFUTED, and his doctrines SHOWN to be FALSE" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:188)
harry4health 1 year ago
Marco-2: LDSers R divided on what is authoritative in LDS CHURCH. U don't know this?
Only LDS scripture is binding, or LDS Scripture & official LDS Church sources?
Worship Jesus?
Worship Type-A for Father & Worship Type-B for Jesus?
Heavenly Mother exists?
Is Elohim the Father an exalted man?
Did Elohim BECAME A God or not?
Could women get ordained to LDS priesthoods?
Do we have something to do with 1 God or plural Gods?
I listen to LDSers, but LDS CHURCH sources & General Authorities R best
harry4health 1 year ago
marcopolo8765- Do U know who smears those who share & document, & insults & demonizes those who disagree? That's right- liberals, U & many Mormons/LDSers. 'Satan' loves this'. It is not honest to avoid the issues & documentation, evade & avoid all of it for a baseless accusatory smear.
LDS Church & LDSers regularly misrepresent & twist non-LDS doctrines like the Trinity & evangelical salvation beliefs & then seek to pseudo-disprove them. That is the logical fallacy of the 'strawman'.
Acts 17:11
harry4health 1 year ago
Marco-I'm also following words of LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith:
"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. ..If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he SHOULD be REFUTED, and his doctrines SHOWN to be FALSE"-Doctrines of Salvation 1:188
harry4health 1 year ago
Who's the idiot that marked all of the website link lists as Spam, when they aren't? They directly relate to what H4H is talking about & documents the Judas gospel as fake and the Mormon guy as sloppy and really not doing his homework. Please read all of H4H's posts that are marked as spam. They are not. Someone did the same thing when I posted the same one H4H gave.
PowerPlowMe 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
READ THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS ARTICLES
CARM*org/gospel-of-judas
NYSun*com/arts/gospel-of-judas-called-an-authentic-fabrication/30588/
Kregelpublications*blogspot*com/search?q=Gospel+of+Judus
Washingtontimes*com/news/2006/apr/7/20060407-120642-3758r/
BOOKS:
* Porter, Stanley E., & Gordon L. Heath- The Lost Gospel of Judas: Separating Fact from Fiction
* Wright, N. T.- Judas and the Gospel of Jesus: Have we Missed the Truth about Christianity?
* Perrin, Nicholas- The Judas Gospel
PowerPlowMe 1 year ago
JONNG- U IGNORED ENTIRE POST:
Details of Acts 15 is not concerning LDS Church practice. Acts 15 shows that APOSTLES & ELDERS CHOSE prophets to go, NOT LEAD the ENTIRE church. U misapplied & didn't answer the point
Acts 15 shows ELDERS & apostles chose 2 prophets for specific reason. The Christian men decided, THEN ELDERS & APOSTLES chose.
ENTIRE Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 UNIFY to show apostles were the top leaders over the entire universal church. U haven't shown otherwise. THAT is the core issue
harry4health 1 year ago
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JON- READ THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS ARTICLES:
CARM*org/gospel-of-judas
NYSun*com/arts/gospel-of-judas-called-an-authentic-fabrication/30588/
Kregelpublications*blogspot*com/search?q=Gospel+of+Judus
Washingtontimes*com/news/2006/apr/7/20060407-120642-3758r/
BOOKS:
* Porter, Stanley E., & Gordon L. Heath- The Lost Gospel of Judas: Separating Fact from Fiction
* Wright, N. T.- Judas and the Gospel of Jesus: Have we Missed the Truth about Christianity?
* Perrin, Nicholas- The Judas Gospel
harry4health 1 year ago
Jonny- IF U actually read the sources I gave, like the article on CARM, U would have reasons against GofJ. U just grab at a quote & think it suffices. Sloppy. It says COULD. U NEED to READ what I referenced. Nat'l Geographic didn't do a great work in article & UR quote is worthless for the facts & references I gave. GofJ CONTRADICTS BIBLE & LDS CHURCH in history, theology, worldview. It is GNOSTIC & NT scriptures denounce Gnostic nonsense. Honest, careful research would be good for U to do
harry4health 1 year ago
THE TITLE SHOULD BE REAL CHRISTIANITY (MORMON) VS FALSE CHRISTIANITY
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 have you missed literally everything i've written? when you call mormonism the only true christians you ARE attacking other christians, and then you get angry when there is a rebuttal..
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 the catholic church says the same thing yet you dont attack them!!!
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 The catholic church has many problems as well... (it has been influenced greatly by the roman empire and government)... whats your point? This is you avoiding the problem at hand... Are you not defensive after they say this to you? The mormon church has made the first offense, and so it is only my defense. You claim that you are true christianity while you do not truly follow christ so how can you be? it makes no sense, its an attack and counterfeit, a substitute.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 how do you figure we follow christ he is our example. you are the substitute we are the true church
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 How do you not see the hypocrisy in your exchange with me? I make a claim and then back it up, and then you just say... well you are too! and you are worse, and na na nan na na na...... its just a childish circle. I'm making a real point here. You do not follow christ by the simple reason that you do not follow his word! Paul warns about following any words or books that do not follow that of the Bible.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 I am a substitute for what? for christianity? You realize the hypocrisy again!? You are calling the original the substitute, this is a logical fallacy. By your logic, Jesus, the apostles, and all who have come to christ in honest belief are all damned to hell or just dont get to live with God (despite Jesus being God)... because they didnt follow your ways, joseph's ways. Dont you see that christianity is about christ and belief on him, not smithianity.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 no we believe after the apostles were Killed. The Authority to act in the Name of God was Lost. And it had to be restored!!! The scriptures said there will be a great falling away and it happened. we follow Christ and his teachings and not of men. we have a prophet on the earth today. we have apostles like the original church had. We have baptism for the Dead which the original church had
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 Why was the authority to act in the name of God lost? Jesus said go and make disciples of the world, and you have the authority through the holy spirit! We all have been given the authority if we have believed. The scriptures said there would be a great falling away IN THE END TIMES.... not in 18 somthin--somethin--... The apostles were people who had seen Jesus and had been counseled by him, not just any person.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 18 SOMETHING is the end times
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 sorry... but there was not a "great falling away" when joseph came around, in fact most churches were growing immensely in the united states.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 also if you ACTUALLY believe that the mormon church is the true church then how could you believe that there was a falling away, this was a great gain and not loss for you. Also how can you believe there was ever a following at all? Anyways 6 million africans convert a year and africa has exponentially changed in recent years... south america, china and much of the world... there is by no means yet "the great falling away", unless you are talking about american culture right now
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 south america is growing in the lds church and temples being built in africa and china!!! just because a church grows doesnt matter. its truth that matters with growth
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 It certainly doesnt matter if a church grows.... especially because islam has 1 billion people but that WAS NOT MY POINT!!! my goodness how do you miss these easy points.. YOU SAID that the Bible said in the end times there will be a great falling away. and i was showing you how the church is growing and not "falling away" like you said. Although in the western world we ARE approaching a falling away. this is irrelevant though because what we were talking about was in the 1800's
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 we had a falling away but the true church is restored so they can come to the knowledge of the true gospel on earth today
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 well considering i just explained to you why that is wrong, that cannot be true.... anyways... you have yet to show me any good reason or sign for a new and improved "true gospel", let alone, have i not seen a reason for a new gospel at all!
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 plus end times prophecy must fit OTHER end times prophecy in order to be valid
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 Also your prophets do not make it through the tests in the BIble.... in deutoronomy it says that if they are a real prophet and they make a prophecy it will come to pass, if not, they ought to be stoned for they were never truly a prophet of God, if they said something that was a lie or just not true-- it means it came from man. Also prophets actually were told what to do from God in tough matters, but we all know that your prophets are just ordinary men who were chosen by men.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 when one of the apostles died the 11 voted on in who never seen jesus but was considered righetous by God
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 First off, did the ancient church continue to do this? No! after the apostles left and made disciples of the world they did not continue to this, and that never made the church any less than what it was. This was also a choice of the apostles who are but men, and they did it for comfort, it was by no means biblical. Also where does it say he was "righteous by God", only somebody who believes on Jesus is righteous before God (and that is Biblical!).
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 he was still an apostle which it made it right in GOds eyes
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 Traditionally, the Twelve Apostles include Peter (whom some denominations consider the "Prince of the Apostles");[3] Andrew, James the Greater, James the Lesser, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, Thaddeus, Simon, and Judas Iscariot. Judas had been one of the Twelve, but he betrayed Jesus and killed himself.[4] With Judas gone, Matthias became one of the Twelve.[Ac 1:15-26]
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 Matthias was chosen by man, the rest were chosen by Jesus... paul was chosen by God as the real apostle.... but i would have to quote far too many verses to show you that.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 the true apostles were chosen by Jesus himself, and their purpose was served, now there is no point in having apostles, and there is no Jesus or apostles to choose them. Are you honestly going to try and support the church just choosing some guys to call apostles on their own as being biblical!?!?! this is absurdity.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever if he chose them then he will choose them now
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
@jonnygotz2343 why would he chose them now? thats not proof! The Bible says that the timing was perfect and right in that time period for what went on. Why would need apostles now?! Jesus gave us the holy spirit! he lives within us... how ludicrous. Plus who has seen jesus, had contact with apostles? or any of those sorts of people? that is a crazy conclusion youve made.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
@MrHappiness777 we need a apostles and prophets so that we can have the holy spirit be we need them also so the we can hear directly from God. In the book of Amos its says God does nothing except thru is prophets
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
jonny - Amos 3:7 is in the Jewish/Old Covenant & for a specific time period. Read the New Testament- Christian God did A LOT without prophets. The NT apostles were the highest leadership position and none were called prophets. NT in Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 has apostles "first" and prophets "secondarily". LDS Church reverses it & changes the definition & role. Then, NONE of the New Testament was written by NT prophets, right? "The Lord God ... reveal[ed]" LOTS without prophets in NT church
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health nope not fact!!! Apostles are prophets seers and revelators as well.
the apostles were prophets.
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JONNY- U must learn how to not only make assertions but SUBSTANTIATE them. I HAVE U Bible that refutes UR empty, mere assertion. Now, go back & honestly deal w/issues & ALL passages I used. The NT of the CHRISTIAN Bible NEVER says apostles R prophets. U can't find ANYONE in the church called a seer & there's no proof ALL apostles gave revelation. 1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11 & Acts 13-15 shows apostle & prophet are SEPARATE IN NT church. YOUR church changes the callings. Read it again & ANSWER verses
harry4health 1 year ago
Jonny-Acts 13:1-3; 14:14; 15:1-4,6 ALL separate apostle from prophet. NO LDS line of apostles becoming NT prophets
1 Cor 12:28-"*First* APOSTLES, *secondarily* prophets". Eph 4:11- "He gave [PAST tense] SOME to be APOSTLES, and some to be PROPHETS".
Wha6t isn't fact is an apostle becoming a prophet and having a prophet above the apostles in the New Covenant church. U gave me empty words, but the Bible's NT scriptures demonstrate clearly that U R wrong.
harry4health 1 year ago
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints observes all the Biblical principles taught about priesthood, including:
That the Priesthood is the authority for man to act in God's name.
The priesthood is given directly from God, though Jesus Christ.
That Christ was not the only one to have the higher priesthood.
Christ ordained the 12 Apostles with the priesthood.
The Apostles ordained others with the priesthood.
The church is identified as having the priesthood.
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JON-U assert, but prove nothing & NO Bible.
New Testament- WHERE does it say a MALE-ONLY, CLERICAL 2 priesthoods are for the CHURCH?
WHERE in NT does it SAY Jesus gave the PRIESTHOOD to the apostles?
WHERE does it SAY the apostles gave the PRIESTHOOD to others?
WHERE in NT does it say the church is identified as having the 2 LDS priesthoods?
I hope U actually directly answer these points w/ Christian NT scripture in context. Otherwise, U & LDS Church violates Acts 17:11/2 Tim 2:15
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health no need we follow modern day revelation
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
Jonny-U make a one liner w/ no reference to what UR referring to. Can U not write better? My posts showed many faults with LDS ism.
NT church didn't have a prophet as the top leader, but apostles, and Acts 17:11, 2 Tim 2:15 shows that Christians & all are to examine living top church leaders by already written scriptures. If modern revelation claims don't pass the test, they are to be rejected.
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health No your wrong the modern revelation overrides old revelation and the book of AMos says that God does nothing except reveals his secrets to the prophets
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
JONNY- To dialogue, U must answer the specifics of the other person's post.
WHAT NT prophet wrote NT?
AGAIN:
2 TIM 2:15- Diligent study to show yourself approved, a worker who doesn't need to be ASHAMED, ACCURATELY handling the word of truth
Acts 17:11 - They were more noble than the others, for they examined the WRITTEN SCRIPTURES *DAILY* to see WHETHER these things are true OR NOT.
U irresonsibly ignore 2 passages & go to fav LDS prooftexting. NEW Covenant church is ACTS, not Amos
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Paul was a prophet and apostle James was a prophet and apostles when the apostles of old were around they were apostle prophets and revelators as the apostles are prophets seers and revelators
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
Jonny- I know what you sustain UR General Authorities as. I DIDN'T ask U what YOUR church does. I asked what NEW TESTAMENT prophet wrote NT books or letters? PROVE it with NT scripture references/quotes that the person U use FROM the NEW Covenant church is SPECIFICALLY called a true NT prophet. WHERE in NEW TESTAMENT is Paul called a prophet, as one question.
Do NOT give me repeated LDS ideas. SHOW me from NEW TESTAMENT ITSELF- SPECIFICALLY CALLED a prophet in the NEW Testament church
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health No need cause you wont believe anything i tell youThe word "prophet" comes from the Greek prophetes, which means "inspired teacher." Although neither the Greek term nor its Hebrew equivalent, nabi, initially required the function of foretelling, all prophecy looks to the future. Since the Lord has chosen some of his servants to be foretellers--to disclose, sometimes in specific terms, momentous events that are to occur
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JON-THIRD TIME:
2 TIM 2:15-Diligent to ACCURATELY handling the word
Acts 17:11 - They were more noble than others, for they examined the WRITTEN SCRIPTURES *DAILY* to see WHETHER these things are true OR NOT
These passages show the written scriptures are the standard given by the original NT church to discern truth from error. U & LDS Church rebel against Acts 17:11 & reverse the NT order. Christians & all are to use written scripture to test living church leaders, not test scripture by leaders
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Just cause its says apostles first and then apostles dont mean that it has to be in that order thats like saying, i want ice cream hamburger and fries they all are included in your order but that doesnt mean the waitress is gonna give you the ice cream first
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JONNY- 1 Cor 12:28 uses words to SHOW rank. Also, as I have said, the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT demonstrates that the apostles were the top group of leaders in the universal NT church of the 1st century. Paul & Peter were never called prophets. NO person called a prophet was the top leader of the earthly church. U haven't shown otherwise. ALL of the NT demonstrates the apostles were highest leadership. Agabus was UNDER the apostles & apostles sent prophets, not the other way around.
harry4health 1 year ago
JonG- Other Mormon confusion: Is there a Heavenly Mother? How was Jesus birthed within Mary's womb? Who is Adam- God the Father (past) or not (present doctrine)? Did LDS prophet B Young teach Adam God (McConkie in letter said yes) or not? LDS apostle McConkie said Young, a PROPHET, was conflicting in his teaching on the doctrine of Adam as Father God, but DID teach it. Did Adam come into Eden WITH a body, or created from this earth? Does God the Father still progress in knowledge?
harry4health 1 year ago
Jonny- Christian churches are without rudders? The LDS Church has been tossed about by being wishy-washy & contradicted on different doctrines & practices by LDS prophets, LDS Church, LDS scriptures teaching conflicting things,etc. Is Elohim the Father an exalted man who BECAME A God like we can become? Worship Jesus or not? Is it worship Type-A for Father & Worship Type-B for Jesus, redefine worship related to Jesus?How literal is the LDS doctrine of mortals becoming Gods & goddesses/Godhood?
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health Besides the apostles named in the New Testament (whose body of 12 was meant to be maintained, as seen by the selection of Matthias to replace the deceased traitor Judas, Acts 1:24-26), we have other names of men who were prophets, after the time of Christ. Acts 15:32 names two: "And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them."
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JONg- Where in the NT are both Silas & Judas (NOT Iscariot) called apostles? As I showed above, certain were apostles & the prophets JNI & Silas were NOT called apostles. Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 separate the callings clearly. What NT books were written by Silas & Judas? How much did God do in the NEW Covenant church of the first century without Christians who were specifically titled prophets?
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health read acts 15:32 it says they were called prophets themselves, The gospel of Judas was written by judas, And with out silas or judas the church wouldnt have grown and they too died and it cause an apostasy
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
JonGot-U seem not to know Judas1 from Judas2. Judas, who allegedly wrote the Gospel of Judas is J ISCARIOT. He was DEAD in Acts *!*. Acts *15* has ANOTHER Judas, hence- Judas2. U confuse UR Judases. Sound evidence shows the Gospel of Judas is a fake. It also contradicts the Bible & LDS Church. LDS seem so eager to add books to scripture, they don't always have the sense to really research Christian literature, etc., exposing it. It says Jesus ASKED Judas to betray him, etc. Load of crap
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health he may have cause jesus need to die in order for us to have eternal life
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JON- UR empty semi-reply to my posts on Judas shows how weak UR case is. U used Gnostic garbage Gospel of Judas & R wrong. The BIBLE & LDS CHURCH do NOT agree with GofJ. READ IT! There are several or more parts that are plainly against the Bible & is Gnostic gobbledeegoop. There is NO chance GofJ & Bible R right. BIBLE doesn't have Judas as being a hero, or Jesus, etc. U deal with nothing of the details that disprove UR opinions. Empty. MAY have? U went from dogmatic to speculation. Empty.
harry4health 1 year ago
JonG-U missed what I said- I asked U, NOT to list NT prophets- I could have given U the verses U gave, but where are the apostles, specifically Paul, are specifically called a "PROPHET". U haven't answered yet. Acts 15 actually shows apostles are NOT prophets- Acts 15:2,4,6,22-23 have Paul as apostle, Judas (NOT Iscariot) & Silas as prophets. It also shows that apostles sent prophets. NO evidence of a prophet having higher position than the apostles.
U DO see this, don't U?
harry4health 1 year ago
Jonny-NT shows Matthias replaced Judas for a SPECIFIC reason & SPECIFIC time: Acts 1 plainly shows that Peter said that the replacement HAD be one of "the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--BEGINNING WITH the baptism of John". NO OTHER apostle is shown to replace ANY OTHER supposed office position in the apostles of the New Testament church. They were just added. NO LDS Church rigid practice. UR LDS copied post doesn't hold up under Acts 17:11
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health apostles and prophets are all the same in the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. we have a main prophets and the apostles are prophets as well
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
JonG- U don't have to tell me basic LDS stuff about LDSism. Also, your prophet-president WAS an apostle. LDS apostles are called prophets in a secondary sense. Their Quorum is APOSTLES.
The NT doesn't show they took apostles and made one the top prophet over the entire church. Therefore, the LDS concept U share is NOT from the first century, New Testament church.
NT separates teacher from prophet and prophet from apostle-Acts 13:1,1 Cor 12:28, Acts 15:22
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Judas and Silas the prophets were above Paul and Barnabas, The were chief men among the brethren
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JON-Yup- Acts 15:22, but it doesn't prove the LDS Church view of a prophet over apostles & the prophet-president being the top leader in the universal church.
Acts 15:22 states that apostles & ELDERS sent specific apostles Paul & Barnabas WITH a few NT prophets TO Antioch. A NT prophet did NOT send them. Also, apostles were separate from prophet, as this verse also shows, as does 1 Cor 12:28. Paul was not a prophet. Silas wasn't an apostle. Prophet(s) did NOT send the others or the prophets.
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health it says clearly that judas and silas were above paul in the bible and they were not apostles they were prophets
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
Jonny- No, *I* gave evidence. U give mere assertion without proof.
Acts 15:22: "Then it seemed good to THE APOSTLES and the ELDERS, with the whole church, to CHOOSE men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas" & THEY CHOSE prophets J2 & Silas to be sent with a few specific apostles. The text plainly shows U wrong. U choose not to admit it. U violate Acts 17:11 & 2 Tim 2:15
harry4health 1 year ago
ONNY-It calls Silas & Judas2 (Not Iscariot) prophets. They were NOT apostles. U prove nothing. Entire Book of Acts shows apostles were over prophets. Acts & 1 Cor 14:29 show NT prophets were local to congregations. Acts 15:22 show it pleased the APOSTLES & ELDERS to SEND prophets, Judas2 & Silas. UR own verse doesn't prove UR point. I asked what NT books- Gospel of Judas is NOT in NT & is Gnostic heresy. NO real evidence Judas wrote it. Research better, dude. I have evidence GofJ is a fraud
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health the verse i references earlier says that the prophets were the chief among the other brethren
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JonG- No, UR 1 single verse says nothing of the sort. QUOTE & DEMONSTRATE your mere assertion that the prophets were chief among them, then show me what it refers to from the text.
harry4health 1 year ago
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Jonny- IF U actually read the sources I gave, like the article on CARM, U would have reasons against GofJ. U just grab at a quote & think it suffices. Sloppy. It says COULD. U NEED to READ what I referenced. Nat'l Geographic didn't do a great work in article & UR quote is worthless for the facts & references I gave. GofJ CONTRADICTS BIBLE & LDS CHURCH in history, theology, worldview. It is GNOSTIC & NT scriptures denounce Gnostic nonsense. Honest, careful research would be good for U to do
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health the apostles of the church pick the prophet in the lds church which fits with the scripture references that youve shown also the elders of the church, sustain the prophet after he is chosen
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
JONNY- Details of Acts 15 is not concerning UR LDS Church practice. Acts 15 shows that APOSTLES & ELDERS CHOSE the prophets to go on a mission, not lead the universal church. U misapplied & didn't answer the point.
Acts 15 shows ELDERS & apostles chose 2 prophets for specific reason. The Christian men decided, THEN ELDERS & APOSTLES chose.
The ENTIRE Acts & 1 Cor 12:28 UNIFY to show apostles were the top leaders over the entire universal church. U haven't shown otherwise. THAT is the core issue
harry4health 1 year ago
JobG- I see U skpped over defending the flaky, bogus Gnostic GofJ.
Another source that I hope U read is from CARM:
THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS:
CARM*org/gospel-of-judas
harry4health 1 year ago
@harry4health the National Geographic states that it is "One of the most significant biblical finds of the last century'a lost gospel that could challenge what is believed about the story of Judas and his betrayal of Jesus." which dates the time it was written
jonnygotz2343 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago
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harry4health 1 year ago