So let mne get this straight-God decided to send his Son as a man to diepn the cross for our sins. So God decided to take vengance on Israel for rejecting his Son and murdering him! So is God responsible for the death of his son? Is God a guilty sinner? He prophesied it . He knew what was going to happen so why did that cruel God not save his son? It is a two way street-most just do not understand that.
What I don't get is why you Calvinists bother to proselytize (after all, nobody can choose to follow God, so why do Calvinists attempt to get them to do so???)
A truly "elect" person would not be cruel IMHO. So why not let the damned enjoy their little season on earth before the eternal torture starts? As far as other "elect" people, they don't need your help (and also, spare them the torment of of knowing most of their loved ones will be tortured forever... they'll find that out soon enough!)
Thank you for the friendship invite. Personally I have no interest in any religion and have never heard of Calvinism. Religion has divided humanity for centuries and breeds racism, greed and war and is not necessary in this new age. Most people are literate in areas of science and make their own choices and determinations as to how to worship God. There are those though that do need to be set on the right path and I applaud your efforts at trying to help the lost.
The amazing thing is,God says He created evil Himself,but you refuse to believe it.He is not the author of confusion though,your confusion comes from disbelief.
No you just enjoy the fact that your fatalistic, universalistic world view of God, caused your evil and not you. I hope you feel good about this. You are sorry that God has determined the sorry things that you have done in your life. How convenient. You are merely saying you repent for the sorry things God has caused in your life.
That is a gross misunderstanding of not only scripture but the Reformed point of view.
1. The bible says that God is not the author of SIN... not evil
2. Man is free to sin as much as possible Only the grace of God allows people to avoid evil on any level.. general/ and saving grace. see Ephesians for more on the good works god has prepared for us to walk in etc.
3. God's Sovereignty and Man's responsibility are clearly taught in Scripture... Jesus's death, Babylon's punishishment
Oh trust me I understand Calvinism and it’s contradictions. Your number 1 comment makes no sense. (Provide the scriptures then). Number 2, man is free to sin as much as possible? In Calvinism God causes all sin and evil. Who are you to question God? Number 3, is true but not in Calvinism. In Calvinism what man does, he cannot have done other than what God has caused for him. Therefore no one in Calvinism has actually disobeyed God.
@GBFNorwalk Many writings of Calvinists online for free-do you have resources that shows any of this. Surely assumptionsa are bad. I do not think yuou can even prove free will biblically. I do not remember reading one book or hearing one sermon that alludes to your unfounded conclusion that God caused my sin. Ah-yes-tell us how we are wrong in our own beliefs but do not ever show resources for your assumptions-what-God gave you some special insight outside of the scriptures?
Did I not post this?I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.Is 45:7 Why do you hate God for creating evil to use for good?Men purpose evil,but God intends it for GOOD.
See this is where you equivocate. Now you make it sound like God let it happen by free men. No, in Calvinism God is the primary cause of evil as the men could not possibly do otherwise since God fated it to be so.
Actually you are a universalist. As everything that occurs and every action of every human was universally caused by God so even evil men obeyed God perfectly and are merely martyrs in Gods determinate plan.
Yes you are a universalist. Every human universally in thier total obedience to the determistic God of Calvinist neccessatariansm is transformed into a righteous obedience in the martyrdom of Gods deteministic fate for thier lives as all humans and all the evils of the world were not caused themselves but the God of Calvinism made even thier evil for His pleasure.
1 Jude20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.Wait,to bring them to eternal life?So are they not saved yet?No,they are believers because of God's Justifying and sanctifying them,however they are not saved as in Glorification yet.So we repent and believe unto eternal life,"Glorification".,not justification.
Would an inheritance be given to an impostor? No.So why worship a god who's trying to save everyone but can't?Why pray to him for the salvation of others when he's trying as hard as he can already?Are you just trying to make him feel worse than he already must feel?
Do you realize if the Gospel was just preached everywhere,the pews would be almost empty?If we truly went to church to praise God in spirit and truth,instead of speaking out against the truth of scripture and preaching a failure Christ (like goats like to hear about) and preaching a false inclusive message that God loves everyone,instead of Jesus died for sinners,most "so called" Pastors would have to get another job.
Just admit your contradiction wont you? Are you a slave to God and yet still can sin? Yes. But a slave to sin has inability to do otherwise? And you want me to come over to that sloppy of reason and contradictions? No thanks., its not logical its not Biblical.
@GBFNorwalk The only thing that's subject to death is our flesh and only death can rescue us from our sinful flesh.If you don't like that answer,take it up with the Apostle Paul and the word of God.Aren't you supposed to be a Preacher or something?
No, the apostle Paul is not contradiction as you are. Dont drag him into your contradiction he makes none.
So Satan is more powerful than the God of Calvinism? Satan when tempts people to be slave to sin, that means total Inability to do anything than serve his master satan sinfully, but when God makes men slaves to God He cant quite keep His slaves from sinning? So Satan in Calvinism is more powerful of a God than The real God of Calvinism? Interesting.
@GBFNorwalk Romans 11:32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Who consigned them to sin?Not Satan,God did.Who caused David to number Israel,God or Satan?Satan is nothing but a soldier of God,who God made a certain way,that at an appointed time,would show rebellion to God,but still has to do exactly what God says.Remember JOB?Who brought JOB up in the first place?Are you an OPEN THEIST?
@GBFNorwalk Put it this way,Adam's sin caused us all to die,this was God's plan and by denying it ,you are also denying God's sovereignty.You're saying man or Satan thwarted God's will,wrong.
1) So did Adam have a free will or not! Please quit contradicting yourself! And if he did are you then an open theist?
2) If as you said, a slave must obey his master and sinners always obay satan, then why dont Christiians always have to obey God as slaves of God and dead to sin?
@GBFNorwalk Even as a Christian you should know the SPIRIT is constantly warring with the flesh?We will never be shed of these worthless bodies until death,right?That still doesn't change the fact that as natural men we could neither KNOW or Understand the things of God and without our NEW BIRTH we could never see the kingdom of God.Therefore regeneration is require ,by God Himself,before we can ever believe.Why is that so hard to understand?
Well your problem is that the apostles were writing to the spiritual man. And writing to be dead to sin as slaves to God. If they could not but still sin then you cannot claim that the unregenrate dead to sin means inability. Eisegesis! If the same Greek for dead means inability then you must hlod to sinless perfectionism to be consistent exegeticlly and without contradiction. You remain in contradiction.
You are still in contradiction. The scriptures use dead analagously for sin to death and sin to righteousness. You do not thus eisegesis and contradiction. Slaves of death and slaves of righteousness are used analagously in scripture. ou use slaves of sin as inability but slaves of righteousness as ambiguity.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
@GBFNorwalk Does God use evil means to accomplish Good?If He does,then He's using something created by another?Really?Man caused evil and God is thankful to Him because now He can use it for His good,is this what you think?
@CBALLEN So God depends on man or Satan to create evil and then God gets to use it for His good purpose,such as Jesus' death on the cross,but it was predestined from eternity past,so then God knew men would create it for Him to use later?God is self reliant,self sufficient.He depends on no one for anything.
If you are right then God is the author and finisher of evil and evil is an attribute of God. Oh, but this is when you will say Adam had a free will. (contradiction and equivocation) No! you just stated God not man or satan caused all evil before the foundations of the world and so logically evil emenates from God in Calvinism. You are a hyper Calvinist and a fatalist! And God is linked to evil in Calvinism just as the video says.
@GBFNorwalk God uses" evil "all through the Bible to cause Good,so is it evil?Did God use murderous men to kill His Son?And not just any murderous men,but the ones He predestined for it to be?
@GBFNorwalk You need to learn the difference between fatalism and determinism.God has determined a causes b leading to c ect. until His desired end,exactly as He planned,in a deterministic way.Even you not believing who He is is determined by how you have been taught and how you grew up in the house and country He determined you'd be born in.
So what God determinins by a fatal neccessity makes evil emmenate from Him. No it is you and your friends that need to learn the etemology of fatalism. The things you and your friends say are uninformed.
@GBFNorwalk God is not who you are teaching He is.He saves those He chose before time to save by His own will and not by looking into time,He doesn't just see the future like some fortune teller,He causes it.
@GBFNorwalk Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
Who is turning all the king's hearts?Doesn't look like they have free will since God is directing their hearts like a stream of water,this means God also directed Hitler's heart,probably through evil spirits or Satan.You can't get over your imaginary free will can you?You hate THE FACT that God rules your every thought and action for His purposes.
Arminians teach we give faith and belief to God for our new birth,but we believe faith and belief are gifts from God because of Our New Birth.1John 5:1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.Of course this removes man completely from the equation,he is only the recipient of God's grace.Once this happens God works His sanctification through us,being manifest in Good works.
Keep in mind,we are saved we're being save and we will be saved.God has predestined,,elected, called ,converted Justified,sanctified and Glorifies'
We are called by the Father converted through His word,justified by His gift of faith and belief ,and sanctified through repentance,until glorification.Once God starts the process,man is unable to say no or stop it,aren't you glad?Sin has no more power over a sinner,after God saves him,Jesus' righteousness is imputated to the believer.
Do you realize teaching that man thwarted God's will in the garden is sin?Do you realize that no one can come to Jesus unless God first converts them?Has God ever used Evil spirits to do His will?You have a very limited view of God,He is our King and He turns all the Earthly Kings hearts to the way He wants them to go,right?What about Hitler?Prov.16:9 Man makes his plans but God directs his steps.Your own way is not even in you,God leads you however He choses, to do whatever He chooses?
I see that some are trying to use human logic and reason to explain away what "looks like" contradictions in Calvinism and even in Scripture. Human reason and logic is flawed. How dare any of us entertain the thought that we can figure all these things out through reason and logic and words like "contradiction". I admit that in Scripture, some things "look" contradictory. Free Will and God's sovereignty is a seeming contradiction, but it is not. We will not settle this issue completely.
If you cannot settle the issue then how are you sure you are right? Fatalism is is through impersonal forces? You are in great error. Why dont you study fatalism as discusssed throughout history first. The etemology of fatalism dates earlier than the deities of the early pagans in the intertestemental period concerning thier many Gods that fated all events that occur. Sounds like personal gods to me. Kind of like your polytheism of satan being the god that makes bad things happen.
@GBFNorwalk I believe whatever you say I do. LOL. I did not say that I did not understand enough to believe or to be settled. I did not say that the devil makes people do evil. You are prob right about fatalism. I have only studied its modern side where it is mostly philosophical and not religious per say. I ust think we can take reason too far into things of this nature. No one can fully explain these things. Sometimes I think you believe that you can. cont
@GBFNorwalk I did not say I was not settled. I believe I am right. I just said we cannot figure it all out, meaning we cannot pretend to know these things fully. I understand enough to believe what I believe. I am not a polytheist if I believe that Satan is described as the god of this world. He doesnt make people do bad things. He tempts evil people to do bad and they willingly do it. It is their nature to do so. They are fallen. You are prob right about the history of Fatalism......
@GBFNorwalk "my polytheism"? wow. Don't put words in my mouth. He is called the god of this world. He tempts men to sin. They sin because they want to. They are evil.
I would like for you to please go over the idea of man as slave to sin and his god the Devil. Also, how man cannot do good. Is the will of man now free or enslaved to sin?
@GBFNorwalk 1 Co 4:4. I am free to sin. My main concern is not with the will of believers, but with the will of lost people. That is what I want to know more about. Over and over the Word speaks of lost man being unable to do good, not desiring to do good anyway, being slaves to the Devil, being unable to hear, unable to see, hating God, etc. Would you please do a video on the state of the unbeliever and his will and what his will is capable of and not capable of doing? Thanks
Just because you SAY I'm in contradiction does not make it so. I asked you specifically to show where I have affirmed and denied the same idea. Where did I affirm A and Not A? I have yet to be taken through the process. Your logic it too loose.
I find it interesting that the only one between the two of us who posts scripture is me. Very telling.
I will reaffirm, yet again, two ideas that you refuse to absorb so you can understand the reformers instead of copy/pasting portions.
1) The arminian interpretation of permission is almost deistic since many have affirmed that God does not influence the mind of believers so that they can make a "quality decision" to come to Him (unbiblical). Reformers, however, affirm that God directs human history to produce an outcome that He willed for the salvation of those put in the Christ's hands.
The bringing about of evil is done through the evil desires and inclinations ALREADY PRESENT in the heart of man.
@20485742895729875 Contrary to your claims, Calvinism does not teach that God coerced or forced man to sin, but brought events into place and man by his own wickedness committed evil actions. NO Calvinist has ever claimed that God coerces men into sin. That is a straw-man and it is deceptive of you to claim so. Find me a quote where a reformer has said that God forces man to sin, imparts new sin, or is the author of sin, then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're reading into them.
The devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want.
Thinking that the difficulty here may be resolved by a single word [permit], some are foolish enough serenely to overlook what occasions the greatest ambiguity; namely, how God may be free of guilt in doing the very thing that He condemns in Satan and the reprobate and which is to be condemned by men. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179)
We learn that nothing happens but what seems good to God. How then is God to be exempted from the blame to which Satan with his instruments is liable? (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.180)
Everything is controlled by God’s secret purpose, and nothing can happen except by his knowledge and will. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.72)
What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.73)
Are you sure you know how to read theologians? No Calvinist (including Calvin) has said that God makes evil. Point to in the quote where Calvin says that God does not permit evil but creates it. All he's responding to is the idea that evil is not part of the will of God. You cannot separate God's will and his permission. If God permits evil it is only because His will was that evil should occur so that His plan may unfold. Simple as that.
I cannot believe your comment. Blatant contradiction!
You said:
A) All he's responding to is the idea that (evil is not part of the will of God).
B) If God permits evil it is only (because His will was that evil should occur) so that His plan may unfold.
John Calvin in the post I put up, is unequivocally saying evil is not by permission but by determination. He said God determined evil and not by permission. You’re kidding right?
Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago…….the theistic basis for foreknowledge. Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined.
Now the Divine knowledge of the future is not a mere abstraction, but something which is inseparably connected with and accompanied by His purpose. God has Himself designed whatsoever shall yet be, and what He has designed must be effectuated. As His most sure Word affirms, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand"
So A. W. Pink says, (God has DESIGNED, must be EFFECTUATED!
@GBFNorwalk I'm beginning to wonder if you really understand the meaning of the word "contradiction". The fact that you use it as commonly as everyone else uses conjunctions leads me to think "no". I have made no such contradiction in your quotations of me. I said he (Calvin) is RESPONDING to the concept that evil is not part of the will of God (which, by the way, I don't think you have a proper grasp of the relationship of permission and His will; but we'll tackle that later), and then that...
And then I went on to talk about how evil IS a part of the will of God via His permitting of evil men to perform evil actions so that God could bring about a greater good. Show me the contradiction? Where in my posts have I said that A is not A in the same time and relation?
Finally, what I mean by "permission" and what all reformers mean by permission is that God uses Evil men and their actions as opposed to forcing them against their will...
He does not invent of create new evil and puts it in their hearts (after all, scripture is full of statements about the evilness and the corruption of men; so He does not need to create evil since it comes natural to us). God directs the course of history either by direct intervention (e.g. Miracles) or by the use of men's natures and actions to bring about what He has willed from eternity past.
Or have you not read the book of Job? Did not God allow and permit evil to come upon him only for God to reveal Himself more fully to Job after he began to question His Will?
Why does your God permit evil? Is it so that His will may be accomplished? So that He may be glorified? So that the greatest good may come of it?
If your answer to the preceding questions is "no" then your god is definitely one that the Reformers believed in. Once again, if it is "no" then your only options left are either incompetence of cruelty. I don't know about you but I'm comforted by a sovereign God who lets nothing get out of His control.
I already gave you an exegesis of Genesis 50:20. I don’t think you are paying attention or even reading my comments and the comments of the Reformers I have provided, that in no way believe in permission of evil as you are using it. Again this is Arminian! Please read their comments before posting.
A.W. Pink went as far as to say that all that happens in Gods foreknowledge, is God Himself by design (cause) must be effectuated (effect). There is no secondary cause established thus in Calvinism God is the author and finisher of evil by design not by any permission. Yes you are in contradiction and denial of what the Reformers I have been posting have said. Read back through the quotations I have posted! It is you that does not understand thier quotations. Or in denial.
In order for you to make that assertion God must have directly warped nature and personally corrupted it. Clearly, that is not what I, nor Clavin, nor any reformer that I know of has claimed. Now again, if you can't make a distinction between primary and secondary causes, your only other options is that God is either incompetent, or enjoys evil for its own sake (since He can't make good of it). So which is it?
So you then must believe evil exists by Gods permission. That is Arminian. You have contradicted yourself again. You have said God created evil and God did not create evil. I do understand that this is how Calvinism is argued. But is is a logical fallacy. In Calvinism secondary cause is not established but God is the author and finisher of evil. Calvinism is an Exclusive Primary Efficacy. In Calvinism what God knows God causes. Evil in Calvinism becomes an attribute of God.
What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.73)
No Arminian or non Calvinist that I know of believes what you said that, (God knew evil would come about, yet chose to create anyways without a plan or a purpose)
@GBFNorwalk I never said God created evil, yet did not. You seem to be into the habit of reading into my words that which is not there. In fact, I affirm your first statement in your reply "So then you must believe evil exists by God's permission." YES!! And that's exactly the answer given in Genesis 50:20 (I trust you to look the verse up yourself). God is powerful enough to permit evil actions caused by evil intentions and use them for good with eternity in mind.
In response to your last paragraph, I never said that you or anyone else affirms the options I laid out for you. That is reading into my statements again. Those options are a consequence to your denial of my belief that God permits evil for the fulfilling of His plan and purpose and will. If (pay attention to the word "if" it's important) you deny what I claimed above, then your only options is that God new evil would come without a plan in mind which is cruel...
or God could not prevent it from happening, which is incompetence. Any other answer is a Reformed one.You can't have your cake and eat it too by affirming that God is in control and has a plan and purpose in mind AND affirm that God did not intend for evil to come about. The reformed answer is the only truly orthodox one.
8. Here they recur to the distinction between will and permission, the object being to prove that the wicked perish only by the permission, but not by the will of God. But why do we say that he permits, but just because he wills? Nor, indeed, is there any probability in the thing itself--viz. that man brought death upon himself merely by the permission, and not by the ordination of God;. (cont.)
(cont) as if God had not determined what he wished the condition of the chief of his creatures to be. I will not hesitate, therefore, simply to confess with Augustine that the will of God is necessity, and that every thing is necessary which he has willed; just as those things will certainly happen which he has foreseen (August. de Gen. ad Lit., Lib. 6, cap. 15).
Are you sure you are not Arminian? Of course God had a plan. You are still in contradiction and deny Calvinism by denying John Calvin. Permission is Arminian. Are you saying God had to look down the tunnel of time and see if man wold create evil by permission? Please quit equivocating.
This makes sense only if you define Calvinism by your caricature of Calvinism. Of course Calvinists believe in free will since the performance of a free act is the will actualizing its desires. The Arminian definition (libertarian free will) is illogical since it ironically negates any will and reduces it to a tabula rasa.
Strangely, you acknowledge the fact that Calvinists have been telling you they believe in a free will, yet you openly ignore them in favor of producing more videos that apply to a caricature at best, a straw man at worst.
Calvinists erroneously call the will free. In Calvinism what God knows God causes. You need to only look at CBALLENS comment below to see. In how Calvinists view Gods knowledge man is not free. Man does what God knows irresistably and unconditionally.
John Calvin
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
@GBFNorwalk There's much to be discussed in your reply but I'll just reply to the quote by Calvin (which I agree with absolutely)
The Reformed doctrine understands that God intended that man should fall so that God's purposes would come to pass and so that His mercy and wrath would be fully displayed in creation. Much in the same manner with Joseph who told his brothers that what they did they did for evil purposes, but God intended that evil act for good.
@20485742895729875 Cont. So out of the evil that was the Fall, God is big enough to make eternal good out of it. God does not have to create evil directly in order for it to come about.
Now, contrast that with Arminianism. God knew evil would come about, yet chose to create anyways without a plan or a purpose. You have two options from that: 1) Evil came about and while God can stop it, He has opted to not do so with no plan or purpose. Which makes God a cruel being.
@20485742895729875 Cont. 2) Evil exists because God could not do anything about it which would make Him incompetent. In either of the two options God is not worthy of praise and not worth the title of "God". Only an absolutely sovereign Lord is deserving of such a title and worthy of praise.
God does not have to create evil? You just agreed that God did arrange the fall and evil. In creating all did He not arrange by creation the heavens and the earth by decree? So in Calvinism God decreed and created by arrangement the fall thus God in Calvinism is the author and finisher of evil and evil becomes an attribute of God. In Calvinism God is emphatically the creator of evil. This is the consistant blatant contradiction that is Calvinism.
What did Adam and Eve eat from in the garden?The TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.Who made the tree?God or Satan?So the tree's fruit allowed them to discover evil,but their rebellious action was the sin.Satan was evil before Adam and Eve.How did Satan become evil?Who made Satan?God uses the evil He created for the Good of His children,and His glory.Isaiah 45:7. In that verse, God says, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil" (KJV).
Yes, God knew how Adam would react to Satan and Eve's temptation. I think that by with holding God's spirit from Adam then God knew Adam would fall. It was cause and effect. So yes, ultimately, God made Adam's fall possible but Adam did the sin. Adam could no more resist sin than unregenerate man can today. I am careful not to say that God causes people to sin, but the non-chosen will do nothing else but sin. Even the saved are born in sin and commit sin BUT we seek forgiveness.
No! You are without a doubt saying God caused Adam to sin. Romans 9 teaches that God caused men to do evil before they were born. This is a unconditional reprobation and sin is all of Gods and not of man self in Calvinism. Quit blaming God for your sins. Of course Calvinism teaches God causes people to sin. Cause and effect =
This is from Gruman Systematic Theology. (Calvinist)
"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise.
@GBFNorwalk Ok, so the reprobates have been passed over by God for mercy. It is God's choice, not their choice. He chose Jacob and rejected Esau before they were born. He chose the saints in Christ before the foundation of the world. It is all God's choice and if he chooses to pass over some and leave them in their sins, unsaved by Christ, then that is his right as the creator. God does not choose the saved by anything good found in us.
Where in Romans 9 does it say God passes over the reprobate? It says He makes vessels of wrath fitted for distruction. See my new video called, Neo Calvinism vs Romans 9.
So far you do not believe what Calvinists beleve concerning the fall and you are gulity of blaming God for all of the evil in the world which includes your own sins. Quit blaming God.
@GBFNorwalk That's why they're reprobate...because God did not choose them for eternal life when he was selecting who he would give to Jesus to save. Actually I don't blame God for sin. He allows men to sin because they want to. Only the chosen elect will become perfect as Christ is. You cannot earn your salvation by being good, or working good deeds. Only by faith are you saved, and that is a gift from God. you need to study the scriptures and quit listening to the pope.
Here they recur to the distinction between will and permission, the object being to prove that the wicked perish only by the permission, but not by the will of God. But why do we say that he permits, but just because he wills?
Nor, indeed, is there any probability in the thing itself--viz. that man brought death upon himself merely by the permission, and not by the ordination of God; as if God had not determined what he wished the condition of the chief of his creatures to be.
Now the Divine knowledge of the future is not a mere abstraction, but something which is inseparably connected with and accompanied by His purpose. God has Himself designed whatsoever shall yet be, and what He has designed must be effectuated
Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago…….the theistic basis for foreknowledge. Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined.
So how does that *not* leave us with the conclusion that God positively & actively willed the Shoah ? Pink died in 1952, after WW2, and I for one would love to know if he reconsidered those words. Pink's description does not separate God from evil.
Boettner's book has been very helpful: but that quotation from it exposes Calvinism to the reproach of fatalism - a criticism from which Calvin tries in "The Eternal Predestination of God" to clear his doctrine.
@GBFNorwalk Well, ok I guess I am a semi-Calvinist (my terminology) because I believe the five points yet I think that sinners are responsible for their sin, not God. God knows what the sinner will do and he merely alloows him to do it, but in a sense, I can see that Calvinists would take it further and say that God decreed that the sinner would sin. That may be, but for now, I'm content to hold off on placing blame for sin at God's feet. The sinner sins because he is a sinner.
Semi-Calvinist? So I guess these Calvinists you dont agree with must be heretics also? Romans 9 does not say God allows men to sin. If soteriological it says He hardens and causes their sin actively. It says He causes them to sin before they do good or evil. Who are you to question God if Romans 9 is Calvinistic? Allowing sin is non Calvinist. Maybe you should reconsider and stop blaming God.
@GBFNorwalk No, I don't even say that I don't agree with them and even if I do it's just a minor issue, nothing to dwell on. We agree on the main points; no one agrees with anyone on everything. We are all still learning. Even you, could yet become a Calvinist just as I did once I learned what the scriptures said. I think that by not choosing some people to be his elect, they become children of the Devil and their nature is to sin. That is as far as I will go in blaming sin on God.
Blaming God for sin at all is a wicked thought. Sin is yours Again please stop. You once believed as I do that sin is all of mine and I fully merited evil by my free will. You like Calvinism because you can blame God for your sins. Romans 9 does not say God did not chose some and they become children of the devil. is eisegesis. It says He made them or hardened them before they did good or evil. From the same lump for honor and some for dishonor. Both are actively made.
That is no answer, as God reprobated them from before the foundation of the world, before they had any being. To say that He chose the elect, and simply "passed over" these others, still adds up to reprobation, as he does not elect any of them. But why ? The elect are no more righteous than the reprobate, so that is not the ground of distinction. But it brings Hell on those whose sole sin was to be reprobated. How is that worthy of a holy & righteous & merciful God ?
True goodness comes only from God. Humans can only be considered good by God if they have His Holy Spirit and have our sins paid for by Jesus at the cross. Apart from Christ, man is evil and the extremes of evil that man will do when he is operating on his own freewill without God have been seen in people such as Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, Stalin, Manson,and others. Unless a man is truly born again, by God, he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. God saves men. Men cannot save themselves.
But in Calvinism God caused Dahmer, Hitler, Stalin and Manson. Since in how Calvinists view Gods foreknowledge in what God knows, God causes. These wicked men in Calvinism were merely doing Gods will.
@GBFNorwalk In a sense you're correct, but it's not so simple. God created the first man Adam and did not give him his Holy Spirit. God allowed him to sin when he gave him freewill and in sinning he condemned all of mankind to death. God's plan to deal with it is through Jesus Christ. The people chosen in Christ at some point receive God's Holy Spirit and become more Christ-like as time goes on. Everyone else is a slave to sin and wants nothing to do with Christ..
So God allowed Adam to sin? So Adam had a free will? Did God have to look down the tunnel of time to learn what Adam would do? Are you saying that God the creator was subject to Adam the creature in Adams free will? Are you a dualist? In Calvinism nothing is cuased but by God as what God knows in Calvinism, God causes.
By the way, you called me a heretic. Could you demonstrate how?
@GBFNorwalk Not all Calvinists agree on Adam and his freewill prior to his sinful act that condemned the entire human race. My belief is that God created Adam but without God's Holy Spirit dwelling within him. He allowed him to be tempted and he fell. I believe that God decrees most things, but maybe not everything as in the case of Adam and his freewill. Of course God knew what Adam would do before he did it, but that is not to say that God decreed that Adam would fall.
So you are saying that God the creator was subject to the actions of Adam the creature? Did God learn what Adam would do? Did God have to look down the tunnel of time and see Adams decesion? Are you a dualist? How does this all make me a heretic?
@GBFNorwalk God knew what Adam would do. I think in Adam's case, God did give him the ability to fall when tempted. we, as Adam's descendents, inherit his sin and God's condemnation. Jesus was able to restore us and we are accepted by what Jesus did, not by anything we have done.... like believing in Christ. Yes, you are a heretic if you preach Arminain doctrine instead of what the holy Bible teaches.
@GBFNorwalk Can a dog be anything but a dog? Is a cat a cat? Every creature has it's own nature and all creaTures within that species tend to act similar. It's instilled in them, called instinct. God programs them that way. They are "free" to move about and do as they please, but they still have that nature. Men are the same way. Unregenerate man is a sinner, loves sin, can do little else. The born-again man still sins, but he is moving towards Christ-like perfection.
As far as metaphysics is concerned, since when are we not allowed to use analogies? That's dumb. Free will is stupid because if nothing has caused person A to do something (it was just free will) then NOTHING CAUSED PERSON A TO DO IT. That is, IT WAS TOTALLY RANDOM - NOTHING CAUSED IT. So, free will doesn't even make sense. How can you have a system of morality based on completely random events. God causes people to sin so he can send them to hell for sinning, for he is willing to show his wrath
And you STILL didn't answer my attack on free will. If it ain't caused, then THERE'S NO CAUSE!!!!! IT JUST HAPPENED AT RANDOM!!!!! So, all your deeds just happen at random. So, if whatever we do just happens at random, how can we hold ourselves responsible? I'm saying, BLAME/HOLD RESPONSIBLE the one who DID the bad thing, not the one who CAUSED the person to do the bad thing, which means blaming humans/demons, not blaming God.
I can't really be bothered with much more of this. I'll read whatever comment you make back, and then if I think you're making a new point, I'll respond. If I think you're making the same mistake I've already corrected, I'm out. I hope you stop calling what I believe calvinism. What I'm saying is way smarter than calvinism. If you don't believe its Christ alone who makes the difference between sin and righteousness, heaven and hell, in a person's life, you're off to hell. Repent -Proverbs 16:4.
Your philosophy is flawed and is relativistic. You are not distinguishing between physics and metaphysics. In convoluting the two you feel it is ok to blame God for your evil. Do not think to highly of yourself. Apples and orange is physics. God and man is metaphysics.
Apples and oranges sounds so nice, but the reality is God in Calvinism which is the best name for your philosophy would be more like the gun who when God fires it (cause) and blames the gun for the (effect). The gun is not (ontos) therefore the causal being (God in your position) is responsible for the evil. Do not think too highly of yourself.
O boy. You don't know what relativism is. Calvinism is a theological system which I don't hold to, so get your terms right. I'm not going to go into what it is - it would take too long. I don't blame God for anything. I already said I don't blame the cause. I blame the sinner, not the cause, which is the Biblical principle. I'm responsible for ALL my sin. God for NONE. Since you don't count on christ alone for salvation, (but C+free will) you are not saved and will go to hell.
You can't keep up with me philosophically because you fail to distinguish between simple concepts like doing and causing, relative truth and contingent truth. Neither have you answered my awesome attack on free will.
Think about it like this: If it is a sin to ROLL, and I cause a ball to roll, then I am not sinning. For we didn't say it was a sin to cause a ball to roll; we said it was a sin to roll. If I cause a ball to roll, I am not rolling. The ball is the one sinning, for it is a sin to roll. Now, substitute "roll" for "murder" and you'll have got it.
Apples and oranges have nothing to with distinguishing truth. I am not confused you are in contradiction and are holding to relativism. The Bible does not mean what it says? Imitate me is not in His attribute of omnipotence or ability, it is as a standard. When the Bible says imitate me it is in the context of obedience. Thus the law we obey are Gods that God holds to.
If Jesus is God and imitates God by perfectly obeying Gods commands then the commands are Gods to keep and we are to obey. Jesus obeying Gods commands is the science of analogy that Gods commands and standards are the same ones He holds to and we are to keep.
Your logic does in fact make God doing the evil. He caused the evil as though He fired the Gun Himself and then blamed the Gun.
apples and oranges are to do with relativism, and that's what we were talking about, so quit with your high-minded comments. I already said that 'imitate me' means obey God's commands as Jesus did, so don't try and make out like you need to teach me it. Its a cheap shot. God does not hold to the same laws as he makes for us. They are for men, not him. I already proved it by mentioning vengeance. I also already proved God makes people to sin by mentioning scripture.
Also, you need to start distinguishing between the concepts of DOING, and cause. If I cause a ball to roll, then it is the ball that DOES the rolling, not me. If God causes a person to sin, then it is the person who DOES the act of disobedience, and God who caused it. God caused disobedience to happen. If God has caused a PERSON to disobey, then it is that person who disobeys, or else God didn't cause a person to disobey. Simple!
Also, fatalists have a SUBMISSIVE attitude to events. I don't. I NEVER think, "oh, well, there's nothing I can do about it anyway, so I'm not going to do anything." The fatalist DOES think this. That's the difference between someone who believes in the absolute predestination of all things, and a fatalist. NON-FAtalists say, "whatsoever will come to pass will include me, and therefore I will make my contribution, and whatever I contribute, will have been predestined by God". Its' not the same!
Fatalism is the thesis that human acts occur by necessity and hence are unfree. Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and hence unfree. If there is a being who knows infallibly the entire future, then no human act is free.
again, whatever. you can be all technical about definitions if you like, but the plain fact is that in common usage the "fatalism" is one who has a submissive attitude to events such as the one described. I don't have such an attitude, so I'm not a fatalist. Fatalists say "may as well not bother" - you'll never catch me saying that.
You are wrong on fatalism. Please provide a definition from a reputable source. Fatalism is not a chance happening outside of God, it is a fatal necessity that occurs by a deity which in Christianity there is only one God thus fatalism in Christianity is whatever God causes is caused by a fatal necessity. In Calvinism, this contingent act of God in causing makes the effect evil all of Gods and man is merely the instrument in which God does His evil.
Oxford English Dictionary: "Fatalism: the belief that all events are predetermined; a submissive attitude to such events resulting from such a belief." But who cares about what the OED says? I'm using common usage theological/philosophical terminology here - OED doesn't account for that. I have told you already, I'm not a calvinist.
Thank you your definition supports mine. It does matter how we define things. Again are you then saying that Christian truth is different than secular truth? More relativism. The Bible does not say we cannot kill. It says murder. We can judicially see justice is done as is done when Gods vengeance is carried out judicially. Therefore there is one truth for all. Not your relativism one truth for God and another for man.
When God says "imitate me" it doesn't mean in every degree. It doesn't mean, "make lots of commands for people" it doesn't mean "be omnipotent". It means, "obey Jesus example of obeying God's commands TO MANKIND" So, Jesus NEVER took vengeance during his first coming. We are to imitate that.
So let mne get this straight-God decided to send his Son as a man to diepn the cross for our sins. So God decided to take vengance on Israel for rejecting his Son and murdering him! So is God responsible for the death of his son? Is God a guilty sinner? He prophesied it . He knew what was going to happen so why did that cruel God not save his son? It is a two way street-most just do not understand that.
daveme7 1 day ago
@daveme7
There are about 10 questions here you have asked. How bout narrowing it down.
GBFNorwalk 5 hours ago
What I don't get is why you Calvinists bother to proselytize (after all, nobody can choose to follow God, so why do Calvinists attempt to get them to do so???)
A truly "elect" person would not be cruel IMHO. So why not let the damned enjoy their little season on earth before the eternal torture starts? As far as other "elect" people, they don't need your help (and also, spare them the torment of of knowing most of their loved ones will be tortured forever... they'll find that out soon enough!)
bjggjb 9 months ago
Hi Steve, would you care to patch things up with me?
BeholdTheSonOfGod 10 months ago
@BeholdTheSonOfGod
No problem. I appreciate it.
GBFNorwalk 10 months ago
Thank you for the friendship invite. Personally I have no interest in any religion and have never heard of Calvinism. Religion has divided humanity for centuries and breeds racism, greed and war and is not necessary in this new age. Most people are literate in areas of science and make their own choices and determinations as to how to worship God. There are those though that do need to be set on the right path and I applaud your efforts at trying to help the lost.
unionofuniversalists 11 months ago
The amazing thing is,God says He created evil Himself,but you refuse to believe it.He is not the author of confusion though,your confusion comes from disbelief.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
It seems you like your idea of God rather than who God really is,but He's still God.Can you worship my God?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
No you just enjoy the fact that your fatalistic, universalistic world view of God, caused your evil and not you. I hope you feel good about this. You are sorry that God has determined the sorry things that you have done in your life. How convenient. You are merely saying you repent for the sorry things God has caused in your life.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Read Romans 9 then argue with God about it.Are you mad because God made you like you are?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
That is a gross misunderstanding of not only scripture but the Reformed point of view.
1. The bible says that God is not the author of SIN... not evil
2. Man is free to sin as much as possible Only the grace of God allows people to avoid evil on any level.. general/ and saving grace. see Ephesians for more on the good works god has prepared for us to walk in etc.
3. God's Sovereignty and Man's responsibility are clearly taught in Scripture... Jesus's death, Babylon's punishishment
ugthemc 7 months ago
@ugthemc
Oh trust me I understand Calvinism and it’s contradictions. Your number 1 comment makes no sense. (Provide the scriptures then). Number 2, man is free to sin as much as possible? In Calvinism God causes all sin and evil. Who are you to question God? Number 3, is true but not in Calvinism. In Calvinism what man does, he cannot have done other than what God has caused for him. Therefore no one in Calvinism has actually disobeyed God.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk Many writings of Calvinists online for free-do you have resources that shows any of this. Surely assumptionsa are bad. I do not think yuou can even prove free will biblically. I do not remember reading one book or hearing one sermon that alludes to your unfounded conclusion that God caused my sin. Ah-yes-tell us how we are wrong in our own beliefs but do not ever show resources for your assumptions-what-God gave you some special insight outside of the scriptures?
daveme7 1 day ago
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Did I not post this?I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.Is 45:7 Why do you hate God for creating evil to use for good?Men purpose evil,but God intends it for GOOD.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
God determined before time that Jesus be murdered by the very men who did it,in fact He said it PLEASED HIM to crush His Son.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
See this is where you equivocate. Now you make it sound like God let it happen by free men. No, in Calvinism God is the primary cause of evil as the men could not possibly do otherwise since God fated it to be so.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk No,No,God's purpose was to have Jesus killed by the very men who did it,He chose those certain sinners to murder His Son.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Actually you are a universalist. As everything that occurs and every action of every human was universally caused by God so even evil men obeyed God perfectly and are merely martyrs in Gods determinate plan.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Call me what you will,but you know what I believe.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Yes you are a universalist. Every human universally in thier total obedience to the determistic God of Calvinist neccessatariansm is transformed into a righteous obedience in the martyrdom of Gods deteministic fate for thier lives as all humans and all the evils of the world were not caused themselves but the God of Calvinism made even thier evil for His pleasure.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Can you worship the God of scriptures or will you continue to bow before an impostor?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
1 Jude20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.Wait,to bring them to eternal life?So are they not saved yet?No,they are believers because of God's Justifying and sanctifying them,however they are not saved as in Glorification yet.So we repent and believe unto eternal life,"Glorification".,not justification.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So you admit then that "dead" and "slaves to" does not mean total inability. For example the Calvinist cleche" (how can a dead man obey God)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
Would an inheritance be given to an impostor? No.So why worship a god who's trying to save everyone but can't?Why pray to him for the salvation of others when he's trying as hard as he can already?Are you just trying to make him feel worse than he already must feel?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Do you realize if the Gospel was just preached everywhere,the pews would be almost empty?If we truly went to church to praise God in spirit and truth,instead of speaking out against the truth of scripture and preaching a failure Christ (like goats like to hear about) and preaching a false inclusive message that God loves everyone,instead of Jesus died for sinners,most "so called" Pastors would have to get another job.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Or blatant contradiction 2.
A) Absolutely, Amen. Before Christ, we are slaves to sin and slaves aren't free, they do what their Master tells them to do.
When I ask you as a slave to Christ if you can sin.
B) 2timothy 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
I hope no one would look at this as a licence to sin, but if we have been Justified by Christ, these are mighty comforting words.
A license to sin? I thought you were a slave to God?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Awe,but free men have no more condemnation if they sin,free men can do more than dead sinful men.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Pure eisegesis.
Just admit your contradiction wont you? Are you a slave to God and yet still can sin? Yes. But a slave to sin has inability to do otherwise? And you want me to come over to that sloppy of reason and contradictions? No thanks., its not logical its not Biblical.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk The only thing that's subject to death is our flesh and only death can rescue us from our sinful flesh.If you don't like that answer,take it up with the Apostle Paul and the word of God.Aren't you supposed to be a Preacher or something?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
No, the apostle Paul is not contradiction as you are. Dont drag him into your contradiction he makes none.
So Satan is more powerful than the God of Calvinism? Satan when tempts people to be slave to sin, that means total Inability to do anything than serve his master satan sinfully, but when God makes men slaves to God He cant quite keep His slaves from sinning? So Satan in Calvinism is more powerful of a God than The real God of Calvinism? Interesting.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Romans 11:32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Who consigned them to sin?Not Satan,God did.Who caused David to number Israel,God or Satan?Satan is nothing but a soldier of God,who God made a certain way,that at an appointed time,would show rebellion to God,but still has to do exactly what God says.Remember JOB?Who brought JOB up in the first place?Are you an OPEN THEIST?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So we still have your contradiction.
A) You said a slave must obey His master.
B) You said Christians dont have to obey God.
A) Also you said Adam had a free will.
B) People and angels only do exactly what God says.
Also if Adam had a free will are you an open theist?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Put it this way,Adam's sin caused us all to die,this was God's plan and by denying it ,you are also denying God's sovereignty.You're saying man or Satan thwarted God's will,wrong.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
1) So did Adam have a free will or not! Please quit contradicting yourself! And if he did are you then an open theist?
2) If as you said, a slave must obey his master and sinners always obay satan, then why dont Christiians always have to obey God as slaves of God and dead to sin?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Even as a Christian you should know the SPIRIT is constantly warring with the flesh?We will never be shed of these worthless bodies until death,right?That still doesn't change the fact that as natural men we could neither KNOW or Understand the things of God and without our NEW BIRTH we could never see the kingdom of God.Therefore regeneration is require ,by God Himself,before we can ever believe.Why is that so hard to understand?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN But our body is still dead,it is our spirit that is made alive.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Well your problem is that the apostles were writing to the spiritual man. And writing to be dead to sin as slaves to God. If they could not but still sin then you cannot claim that the unregenrate dead to sin means inability. Eisegesis! If the same Greek for dead means inability then you must hlod to sinless perfectionism to be consistent exegeticlly and without contradiction. You remain in contradiction.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk So if I can never be condemned by sin again as a believer,am I not dead to sin even though my flesh sometimes sins?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
You are still in contradiction. The scriptures use dead analagously for sin to death and sin to righteousness. You do not thus eisegesis and contradiction. Slaves of death and slaves of righteousness are used analagously in scripture. ou use slaves of sin as inability but slaves of righteousness as ambiguity.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
more eisegesis as never be condemned is not sinning. It says dead to sin! Is it inability? or is it no condemnation. Quit equivocating.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk We are not dead in sin anymore,we are dead to it.Are you really a preacher?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
What kind of answer is this? How does this in sin verses to sin grant you the permission to eisegete the plain text of analogy? Non sequitor?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk This is what it all boils down to,man has no free will apart from God.Man's "free will" is your god,just another idol.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Do you think you mustered up a man made faith and then traded it to God to be born again? If you are saved,you didn't.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Changeing the subject will not make your contradictions go away.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Does God use evil means to accomplish Good?If He does,then He's using something created by another?Really?Man caused evil and God is thankful to Him because now He can use it for His good,is this what you think?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN So God depends on man or Satan to create evil and then God gets to use it for His good purpose,such as Jesus' death on the cross,but it was predestined from eternity past,so then God knew men would create it for Him to use later?God is self reliant,self sufficient.He depends on no one for anything.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
If you are right then God is the author and finisher of evil and evil is an attribute of God. Oh, but this is when you will say Adam had a free will. (contradiction and equivocation) No! you just stated God not man or satan caused all evil before the foundations of the world and so logically evil emenates from God in Calvinism. You are a hyper Calvinist and a fatalist! And God is linked to evil in Calvinism just as the video says.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk If x created everything and a,b, and c, exist,then x created a,b,and,c.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Notice you dont deny that God is the author and finisher of evil in Calvinism because you be contradicting yourself again.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
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@GBFNorwalk No,He created evil.Is.45:7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Did you not know?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk God uses" evil "all through the Bible to cause Good,so is it evil?Did God use murderous men to kill His Son?And not just any murderous men,but the ones He predestined for it to be?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So God is a murderer? From your mouth to Gods ears. And you cannot say they freely murdered Jesus because you already stated:
If x created everything and a,b, and c, exist,then x created a,b,and,c.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk You need to learn the difference between fatalism and determinism.God has determined a causes b leading to c ect. until His desired end,exactly as He planned,in a deterministic way.Even you not believing who He is is determined by how you have been taught and how you grew up in the house and country He determined you'd be born in.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So what God determinins by a fatal neccessity makes evil emmenate from Him. No it is you and your friends that need to learn the etemology of fatalism. The things you and your friends say are uninformed.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
Actually the way you guys try to use determinism makes events that occur even more fatalistic than the true definition of fatalism.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk God is not who you are teaching He is.He saves those He chose before time to save by His own will and not by looking into time,He doesn't just see the future like some fortune teller,He causes it.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Has Jesus then infused righteousness into you or imputed His righteousness to you,a saved sinner?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
Who is turning all the king's hearts?Doesn't look like they have free will since God is directing their hearts like a stream of water,this means God also directed Hitler's heart,probably through evil spirits or Satan.You can't get over your imaginary free will can you?You hate THE FACT that God rules your every thought and action for His purposes.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
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Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].Is this another God?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
2timothy 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
I hope no one would look at this as a licence to sin,but if we have been Justified by Christ,these are mighty comforting words.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Arminians teach we give faith and belief to God for our new birth,but we believe faith and belief are gifts from God because of Our New Birth.1John 5:1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.Of course this removes man completely from the equation,he is only the recipient of God's grace.Once this happens God works His sanctification through us,being manifest in Good works.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Keep in mind,we are saved we're being save and we will be saved.God has predestined,,elected, called ,converted Justified,sanctified and Glorifies'
We are called by the Father converted through His word,justified by His gift of faith and belief ,and sanctified through repentance,until glorification.Once God starts the process,man is unable to say no or stop it,aren't you glad?Sin has no more power over a sinner,after God saves him,Jesus' righteousness is imputated to the believer.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Do you realize teaching that man thwarted God's will in the garden is sin?Do you realize that no one can come to Jesus unless God first converts them?Has God ever used Evil spirits to do His will?You have a very limited view of God,He is our King and He turns all the Earthly Kings hearts to the way He wants them to go,right?What about Hitler?Prov.16:9 Man makes his plans but God directs his steps.Your own way is not even in you,God leads you however He choses, to do whatever He chooses?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
I see that some are trying to use human logic and reason to explain away what "looks like" contradictions in Calvinism and even in Scripture. Human reason and logic is flawed. How dare any of us entertain the thought that we can figure all these things out through reason and logic and words like "contradiction". I admit that in Scripture, some things "look" contradictory. Free Will and God's sovereignty is a seeming contradiction, but it is not. We will not settle this issue completely.
mvickers 1 year ago
@mvickers
If you cannot settle the issue then how are you sure you are right? Fatalism is is through impersonal forces? You are in great error. Why dont you study fatalism as discusssed throughout history first. The etemology of fatalism dates earlier than the deities of the early pagans in the intertestemental period concerning thier many Gods that fated all events that occur. Sounds like personal gods to me. Kind of like your polytheism of satan being the god that makes bad things happen.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I believe whatever you say I do. LOL. I did not say that I did not understand enough to believe or to be settled. I did not say that the devil makes people do evil. You are prob right about fatalism. I have only studied its modern side where it is mostly philosophical and not religious per say. I ust think we can take reason too far into things of this nature. No one can fully explain these things. Sometimes I think you believe that you can. cont
mvickers 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I did not say I was not settled. I believe I am right. I just said we cannot figure it all out, meaning we cannot pretend to know these things fully. I understand enough to believe what I believe. I am not a polytheist if I believe that Satan is described as the god of this world. He doesnt make people do bad things. He tempts evil people to do bad and they willingly do it. It is their nature to do so. They are fallen. You are prob right about the history of Fatalism......
mvickers 1 year ago
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@GBFNorwalk "my polytheism"? wow. Don't put words in my mouth. He is called the god of this world. He tempts men to sin. They sin because they want to. They are evil.
mvickers 1 year ago
I would like for you to please go over the idea of man as slave to sin and his god the Devil. Also, how man cannot do good. Is the will of man now free or enslaved to sin?
mvickers 1 year ago
@mvickers
You wrote (god the devil) Are you a polytheist?
Romans 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
So tell me as a slave to righteousness are you now unable or FREE to sin?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk 1 Co 4:4. I am free to sin. My main concern is not with the will of believers, but with the will of lost people. That is what I want to know more about. Over and over the Word speaks of lost man being unable to do good, not desiring to do good anyway, being slaves to the Devil, being unable to hear, unable to see, hating God, etc. Would you please do a video on the state of the unbeliever and his will and what his will is capable of and not capable of doing? Thanks
mvickers 1 year ago
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Stop saying I am a polytheist. You know nothing about my beliefs concerning Satan.
mvickers 1 year ago
Just because you SAY I'm in contradiction does not make it so. I asked you specifically to show where I have affirmed and denied the same idea. Where did I affirm A and Not A? I have yet to be taken through the process. Your logic it too loose.
I find it interesting that the only one between the two of us who posts scripture is me. Very telling.
I will reaffirm, yet again, two ideas that you refuse to absorb so you can understand the reformers instead of copy/pasting portions.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
1) The arminian interpretation of permission is almost deistic since many have affirmed that God does not influence the mind of believers so that they can make a "quality decision" to come to Him (unbiblical). Reformers, however, affirm that God directs human history to produce an outcome that He willed for the salvation of those put in the Christ's hands.
The bringing about of evil is done through the evil desires and inclinations ALREADY PRESENT in the heart of man.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 Contrary to your claims, Calvinism does not teach that God coerced or forced man to sin, but brought events into place and man by his own wickedness committed evil actions. NO Calvinist has ever claimed that God coerces men into sin. That is a straw-man and it is deceptive of you to claim so. Find me a quote where a reformer has said that God forces man to sin, imparts new sin, or is the author of sin, then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're reading into them.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 To claim that we believe that God does not employ secondary means is an absolute lie.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
The devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want.
The Institutes of Christian Religion,
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
John Calvin again.
Thinking that the difficulty here may be resolved by a single word [permit], some are foolish enough serenely to overlook what occasions the greatest ambiguity; namely, how God may be free of guilt in doing the very thing that He condemns in Satan and the reprobate and which is to be condemned by men. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
Calvin again
We learn that nothing happens but what seems good to God. How then is God to be exempted from the blame to which Satan with his instruments is liable? (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.180)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
Calvin
Everything is controlled by God’s secret purpose, and nothing can happen except by his knowledge and will. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.72)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.73)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
Are you sure you know how to read theologians? No Calvinist (including Calvin) has said that God makes evil. Point to in the quote where Calvin says that God does not permit evil but creates it. All he's responding to is the idea that evil is not part of the will of God. You cannot separate God's will and his permission. If God permits evil it is only because His will was that evil should occur so that His plan may unfold. Simple as that.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
I cannot believe your comment. Blatant contradiction!
You said:
A) All he's responding to is the idea that (evil is not part of the will of God).
B) If God permits evil it is only (because His will was that evil should occur) so that His plan may unfold.
John Calvin in the post I put up, is unequivocally saying evil is not by permission but by determination. He said God determined evil and not by permission. You’re kidding right?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
How bout this one.
Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God.
(Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
Loraine Boettner (Calvinist)
Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago…….the theistic basis for foreknowledge. Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
A W Pink (Calvinist)
Now the Divine knowledge of the future is not a mere abstraction, but something which is inseparably connected with and accompanied by His purpose. God has Himself designed whatsoever shall yet be, and what He has designed must be effectuated. As His most sure Word affirms, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand"
So A. W. Pink says, (God has DESIGNED, must be EFFECTUATED!
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I'm beginning to wonder if you really understand the meaning of the word "contradiction". The fact that you use it as commonly as everyone else uses conjunctions leads me to think "no". I have made no such contradiction in your quotations of me. I said he (Calvin) is RESPONDING to the concept that evil is not part of the will of God (which, by the way, I don't think you have a proper grasp of the relationship of permission and His will; but we'll tackle that later), and then that...
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 cont.
And then I went on to talk about how evil IS a part of the will of God via His permitting of evil men to perform evil actions so that God could bring about a greater good. Show me the contradiction? Where in my posts have I said that A is not A in the same time and relation?
Finally, what I mean by "permission" and what all reformers mean by permission is that God uses Evil men and their actions as opposed to forcing them against their will...
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 cont.
He does not invent of create new evil and puts it in their hearts (after all, scripture is full of statements about the evilness and the corruption of men; so He does not need to create evil since it comes natural to us). God directs the course of history either by direct intervention (e.g. Miracles) or by the use of men's natures and actions to bring about what He has willed from eternity past.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 The many verses in scripture show this:
The one I have posted, I believe, twice already--Genesis 50:20 (which you have still not responded)
Lamentations 3:38
Or have you not read the book of Job? Did not God allow and permit evil to come upon him only for God to reveal Himself more fully to Job after he began to question His Will?
Why does your God permit evil? Is it so that His will may be accomplished? So that He may be glorified? So that the greatest good may come of it?
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 cont
If your answer to the preceding questions is "no" then your god is definitely one that the Reformers believed in. Once again, if it is "no" then your only options left are either incompetence of cruelty. I don't know about you but I'm comforted by a sovereign God who lets nothing get out of His control.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
I already gave you an exegesis of Genesis 50:20. I don’t think you are paying attention or even reading my comments and the comments of the Reformers I have provided, that in no way believe in permission of evil as you are using it. Again this is Arminian! Please read their comments before posting.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
A.W. Pink went as far as to say that all that happens in Gods foreknowledge, is God Himself by design (cause) must be effectuated (effect). There is no secondary cause established thus in Calvinism God is the author and finisher of evil by design not by any permission. Yes you are in contradiction and denial of what the Reformers I have been posting have said. Read back through the quotations I have posted! It is you that does not understand thier quotations. Or in denial.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
In order for you to make that assertion God must have directly warped nature and personally corrupted it. Clearly, that is not what I, nor Clavin, nor any reformer that I know of has claimed. Now again, if you can't make a distinction between primary and secondary causes, your only other options is that God is either incompetent, or enjoys evil for its own sake (since He can't make good of it). So which is it?
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
So you then must believe evil exists by Gods permission. That is Arminian. You have contradicted yourself again. You have said God created evil and God did not create evil. I do understand that this is how Calvinism is argued. But is is a logical fallacy. In Calvinism secondary cause is not established but God is the author and finisher of evil. Calvinism is an Exclusive Primary Efficacy. In Calvinism what God knows God causes. Evil in Calvinism becomes an attribute of God.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
John Calvin,
What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.73)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
No Arminian or non Calvinist that I know of believes what you said that, (God knew evil would come about, yet chose to create anyways without a plan or a purpose)
Strawman or dishonest.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I never said God created evil, yet did not. You seem to be into the habit of reading into my words that which is not there. In fact, I affirm your first statement in your reply "So then you must believe evil exists by God's permission." YES!! And that's exactly the answer given in Genesis 50:20 (I trust you to look the verse up yourself). God is powerful enough to permit evil actions caused by evil intentions and use them for good with eternity in mind.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 Cont.
In response to your last paragraph, I never said that you or anyone else affirms the options I laid out for you. That is reading into my statements again. Those options are a consequence to your denial of my belief that God permits evil for the fulfilling of His plan and purpose and will. If (pay attention to the word "if" it's important) you deny what I claimed above, then your only options is that God new evil would come without a plan in mind which is cruel...
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 cont.
or God could not prevent it from happening, which is incompetence. Any other answer is a Reformed one.You can't have your cake and eat it too by affirming that God is in control and has a plan and purpose in mind AND affirm that God did not intend for evil to come about. The reformed answer is the only truly orthodox one.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
John Calvin on foreknowledge and permission.
institutes,III, xxiii,8 (in part)
8. Here they recur to the distinction between will and permission, the object being to prove that the wicked perish only by the permission, but not by the will of God. But why do we say that he permits, but just because he wills? Nor, indeed, is there any probability in the thing itself--viz. that man brought death upon himself merely by the permission, and not by the ordination of God;. (cont.)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
(cont) as if God had not determined what he wished the condition of the chief of his creatures to be. I will not hesitate, therefore, simply to confess with Augustine that the will of God is necessity, and that every thing is necessary which he has willed; just as those things will certainly happen which he has foreseen (August. de Gen. ad Lit., Lib. 6, cap. 15).
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
Are you sure you are not Arminian? Of course God had a plan. You are still in contradiction and deny Calvinism by denying John Calvin. Permission is Arminian. Are you saying God had to look down the tunnel of time and see if man wold create evil by permission? Please quit equivocating.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
This makes sense only if you define Calvinism by your caricature of Calvinism. Of course Calvinists believe in free will since the performance of a free act is the will actualizing its desires. The Arminian definition (libertarian free will) is illogical since it ironically negates any will and reduces it to a tabula rasa.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 Cont.
Strangely, you acknowledge the fact that Calvinists have been telling you they believe in a free will, yet you openly ignore them in favor of producing more videos that apply to a caricature at best, a straw man at worst.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
Calvinists erroneously call the will free. In Calvinism what God knows God causes. You need to only look at CBALLENS comment below to see. In how Calvinists view Gods knowledge man is not free. Man does what God knows irresistably and unconditionally.
John Calvin
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
(Book 3, Chapter 23)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk There's much to be discussed in your reply but I'll just reply to the quote by Calvin (which I agree with absolutely)
The Reformed doctrine understands that God intended that man should fall so that God's purposes would come to pass and so that His mercy and wrath would be fully displayed in creation. Much in the same manner with Joseph who told his brothers that what they did they did for evil purposes, but God intended that evil act for good.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 Cont. So out of the evil that was the Fall, God is big enough to make eternal good out of it. God does not have to create evil directly in order for it to come about.
Now, contrast that with Arminianism. God knew evil would come about, yet chose to create anyways without a plan or a purpose. You have two options from that: 1) Evil came about and while God can stop it, He has opted to not do so with no plan or purpose. Which makes God a cruel being.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875 Cont. 2) Evil exists because God could not do anything about it which would make Him incompetent. In either of the two options God is not worthy of praise and not worth the title of "God". Only an absolutely sovereign Lord is deserving of such a title and worthy of praise.
20485742895729875 1 year ago
@20485742895729875
God does not have to create evil? You just agreed that God did arrange the fall and evil. In creating all did He not arrange by creation the heavens and the earth by decree? So in Calvinism God decreed and created by arrangement the fall thus God in Calvinism is the author and finisher of evil and evil becomes an attribute of God. In Calvinism God is emphatically the creator of evil. This is the consistant blatant contradiction that is Calvinism.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
What did Adam and Eve eat from in the garden?The TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.Who made the tree?God or Satan?So the tree's fruit allowed them to discover evil,but their rebellious action was the sin.Satan was evil before Adam and Eve.How did Satan become evil?Who made Satan?God uses the evil He created for the Good of His children,and His glory.Isaiah 45:7. In that verse, God says, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil" (KJV).
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Yes, God knew how Adam would react to Satan and Eve's temptation. I think that by with holding God's spirit from Adam then God knew Adam would fall. It was cause and effect. So yes, ultimately, God made Adam's fall possible but Adam did the sin. Adam could no more resist sin than unregenerate man can today. I am careful not to say that God causes people to sin, but the non-chosen will do nothing else but sin. Even the saved are born in sin and commit sin BUT we seek forgiveness.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
No! You are without a doubt saying God caused Adam to sin. Romans 9 teaches that God caused men to do evil before they were born. This is a unconditional reprobation and sin is all of Gods and not of man self in Calvinism. Quit blaming God for your sins. Of course Calvinism teaches God causes people to sin. Cause and effect =
1 If Adam could not do otherwise
2 God caused it
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
This is from Gruman Systematic Theology. (Calvinist)
"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Ok, so the reprobates have been passed over by God for mercy. It is God's choice, not their choice. He chose Jacob and rejected Esau before they were born. He chose the saints in Christ before the foundation of the world. It is all God's choice and if he chooses to pass over some and leave them in their sins, unsaved by Christ, then that is his right as the creator. God does not choose the saved by anything good found in us.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Where in Romans 9 does it say God passes over the reprobate? It says He makes vessels of wrath fitted for distruction. See my new video called, Neo Calvinism vs Romans 9.
So far you do not believe what Calvinists beleve concerning the fall and you are gulity of blaming God for all of the evil in the world which includes your own sins. Quit blaming God.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk That's why they're reprobate...because God did not choose them for eternal life when he was selecting who he would give to Jesus to save. Actually I don't blame God for sin. He allows men to sin because they want to. Only the chosen elect will become perfect as Christ is. You cannot earn your salvation by being good, or working good deeds. Only by faith are you saved, and that is a gift from God. you need to study the scriptures and quit listening to the pope.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Calvinism does not teach that God allowed evil.
institutes,III, xxiii,8
Here they recur to the distinction between will and permission, the object being to prove that the wicked perish only by the permission, but not by the will of God. But why do we say that he permits, but just because he wills?
(cont)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
(cont)
Nor, indeed, is there any probability in the thing itself--viz. that man brought death upon himself merely by the permission, and not by the ordination of God; as if God had not determined what he wished the condition of the chief of his creatures to be.
(cont)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
A W Pink (Calvinist)
Now the Divine knowledge of the future is not a mere abstraction, but something which is inseparably connected with and accompanied by His purpose. God has Himself designed whatsoever shall yet be, and what He has designed must be effectuated
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Loraine Boettner (Calvinist)
Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago…….the theistic basis for foreknowledge. Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
So how does that *not* leave us with the conclusion that God positively & actively willed the Shoah ? Pink died in 1952, after WW2, and I for one would love to know if he reconsidered those words. Pink's description does not separate God from evil.
Boettner's book has been very helpful: but that quotation from it exposes Calvinism to the reproach of fatalism - a criticism from which Calvin tries in "The Eternal Predestination of God" to clear his doctrine.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Well, ok I guess I am a semi-Calvinist (my terminology) because I believe the five points yet I think that sinners are responsible for their sin, not God. God knows what the sinner will do and he merely alloows him to do it, but in a sense, I can see that Calvinists would take it further and say that God decreed that the sinner would sin. That may be, but for now, I'm content to hold off on placing blame for sin at God's feet. The sinner sins because he is a sinner.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Semi-Calvinist? So I guess these Calvinists you dont agree with must be heretics also? Romans 9 does not say God allows men to sin. If soteriological it says He hardens and causes their sin actively. It says He causes them to sin before they do good or evil. Who are you to question God if Romans 9 is Calvinistic? Allowing sin is non Calvinist. Maybe you should reconsider and stop blaming God.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk No, I don't even say that I don't agree with them and even if I do it's just a minor issue, nothing to dwell on. We agree on the main points; no one agrees with anyone on everything. We are all still learning. Even you, could yet become a Calvinist just as I did once I learned what the scriptures said. I think that by not choosing some people to be his elect, they become children of the Devil and their nature is to sin. That is as far as I will go in blaming sin on God.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Blaming God for sin at all is a wicked thought. Sin is yours Again please stop. You once believed as I do that sin is all of mine and I fully merited evil by my free will. You like Calvinism because you can blame God for your sins. Romans 9 does not say God did not chose some and they become children of the devil. is eisegesis. It says He made them or hardened them before they did good or evil. From the same lump for honor and some for dishonor. Both are actively made.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
That is no answer, as God reprobated them from before the foundation of the world, before they had any being. To say that He chose the elect, and simply "passed over" these others, still adds up to reprobation, as he does not elect any of them. But why ? The elect are no more righteous than the reprobate, so that is not the ground of distinction. But it brings Hell on those whose sole sin was to be reprobated. How is that worthy of a holy & righteous & merciful God ?
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 year ago
True goodness comes only from God. Humans can only be considered good by God if they have His Holy Spirit and have our sins paid for by Jesus at the cross. Apart from Christ, man is evil and the extremes of evil that man will do when he is operating on his own freewill without God have been seen in people such as Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, Stalin, Manson,and others. Unless a man is truly born again, by God, he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. God saves men. Men cannot save themselves.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
But in Calvinism God caused Dahmer, Hitler, Stalin and Manson. Since in how Calvinists view Gods foreknowledge in what God knows, God causes. These wicked men in Calvinism were merely doing Gods will.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk In a sense you're correct, but it's not so simple. God created the first man Adam and did not give him his Holy Spirit. God allowed him to sin when he gave him freewill and in sinning he condemned all of mankind to death. God's plan to deal with it is through Jesus Christ. The people chosen in Christ at some point receive God's Holy Spirit and become more Christ-like as time goes on. Everyone else is a slave to sin and wants nothing to do with Christ..
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
So God allowed Adam to sin? So Adam had a free will? Did God have to look down the tunnel of time to learn what Adam would do? Are you saying that God the creator was subject to Adam the creature in Adams free will? Are you a dualist? In Calvinism nothing is cuased but by God as what God knows in Calvinism, God causes.
By the way, you called me a heretic. Could you demonstrate how?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Not all Calvinists agree on Adam and his freewill prior to his sinful act that condemned the entire human race. My belief is that God created Adam but without God's Holy Spirit dwelling within him. He allowed him to be tempted and he fell. I believe that God decrees most things, but maybe not everything as in the case of Adam and his freewill. Of course God knew what Adam would do before he did it, but that is not to say that God decreed that Adam would fall.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
So you are saying that God the creator was subject to the actions of Adam the creature? Did God learn what Adam would do? Did God have to look down the tunnel of time and see Adams decesion? Are you a dualist? How does this all make me a heretic?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk God knew what Adam would do. I think in Adam's case, God did give him the ability to fall when tempted. we, as Adam's descendents, inherit his sin and God's condemnation. Jesus was able to restore us and we are accepted by what Jesus did, not by anything we have done.... like believing in Christ. Yes, you are a heretic if you preach Arminain doctrine instead of what the holy Bible teaches.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
So your saying Adam could have done otherwise? God allowing Adam to sin is Arminian or non Calvinst. You do not agree with John Calvin?
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
(Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Can a dog be anything but a dog? Is a cat a cat? Every creature has it's own nature and all creaTures within that species tend to act similar. It's instilled in them, called instinct. God programs them that way. They are "free" to move about and do as they please, but they still have that nature. Men are the same way. Unregenerate man is a sinner, loves sin, can do little else. The born-again man still sins, but he is moving towards Christ-like perfection.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
As far as metaphysics is concerned, since when are we not allowed to use analogies? That's dumb. Free will is stupid because if nothing has caused person A to do something (it was just free will) then NOTHING CAUSED PERSON A TO DO IT. That is, IT WAS TOTALLY RANDOM - NOTHING CAUSED IT. So, free will doesn't even make sense. How can you have a system of morality based on completely random events. God causes people to sin so he can send them to hell for sinning, for he is willing to show his wrath
alt7310 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
And you STILL didn't answer my attack on free will. If it ain't caused, then THERE'S NO CAUSE!!!!! IT JUST HAPPENED AT RANDOM!!!!! So, all your deeds just happen at random. So, if whatever we do just happens at random, how can we hold ourselves responsible? I'm saying, BLAME/HOLD RESPONSIBLE the one who DID the bad thing, not the one who CAUSED the person to do the bad thing, which means blaming humans/demons, not blaming God.
alt7310 1 year ago
I can't really be bothered with much more of this. I'll read whatever comment you make back, and then if I think you're making a new point, I'll respond. If I think you're making the same mistake I've already corrected, I'm out. I hope you stop calling what I believe calvinism. What I'm saying is way smarter than calvinism. If you don't believe its Christ alone who makes the difference between sin and righteousness, heaven and hell, in a person's life, you're off to hell. Repent -Proverbs 16:4.
alt7310 1 year ago
@alt7310
Your philosophy is flawed and is relativistic. You are not distinguishing between physics and metaphysics. In convoluting the two you feel it is ok to blame God for your evil. Do not think to highly of yourself. Apples and orange is physics. God and man is metaphysics.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@alt7310
Apples and oranges sounds so nice, but the reality is God in Calvinism which is the best name for your philosophy would be more like the gun who when God fires it (cause) and blames the gun for the (effect). The gun is not (ontos) therefore the causal being (God in your position) is responsible for the evil. Do not think too highly of yourself.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
O boy. You don't know what relativism is. Calvinism is a theological system which I don't hold to, so get your terms right. I'm not going to go into what it is - it would take too long. I don't blame God for anything. I already said I don't blame the cause. I blame the sinner, not the cause, which is the Biblical principle. I'm responsible for ALL my sin. God for NONE. Since you don't count on christ alone for salvation, (but C+free will) you are not saved and will go to hell.
alt7310 1 year ago
You can't keep up with me philosophically because you fail to distinguish between simple concepts like doing and causing, relative truth and contingent truth. Neither have you answered my awesome attack on free will.
alt7310 1 year ago
Think about it like this: If it is a sin to ROLL, and I cause a ball to roll, then I am not sinning. For we didn't say it was a sin to cause a ball to roll; we said it was a sin to roll. If I cause a ball to roll, I am not rolling. The ball is the one sinning, for it is a sin to roll. Now, substitute "roll" for "murder" and you'll have got it.
alt7310 1 year ago
@alt7310
Apples and oranges have nothing to with distinguishing truth. I am not confused you are in contradiction and are holding to relativism. The Bible does not mean what it says? Imitate me is not in His attribute of omnipotence or ability, it is as a standard. When the Bible says imitate me it is in the context of obedience. Thus the law we obey are Gods that God holds to.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@alt7310
If Jesus is God and imitates God by perfectly obeying Gods commands then the commands are Gods to keep and we are to obey. Jesus obeying Gods commands is the science of analogy that Gods commands and standards are the same ones He holds to and we are to keep.
Your logic does in fact make God doing the evil. He caused the evil as though He fired the Gun Himself and then blamed the Gun.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
apples and oranges are to do with relativism, and that's what we were talking about, so quit with your high-minded comments. I already said that 'imitate me' means obey God's commands as Jesus did, so don't try and make out like you need to teach me it. Its a cheap shot. God does not hold to the same laws as he makes for us. They are for men, not him. I already proved it by mentioning vengeance. I also already proved God makes people to sin by mentioning scripture.
alt7310 1 year ago
And you STILL haven't answered my challenge about free will. Its a stupid concept. It never ever works!
alt7310 1 year ago
Also, you need to start distinguishing between the concepts of DOING, and cause. If I cause a ball to roll, then it is the ball that DOES the rolling, not me. If God causes a person to sin, then it is the person who DOES the act of disobedience, and God who caused it. God caused disobedience to happen. If God has caused a PERSON to disobey, then it is that person who disobeys, or else God didn't cause a person to disobey. Simple!
alt7310 1 year ago
Also, fatalists have a SUBMISSIVE attitude to events. I don't. I NEVER think, "oh, well, there's nothing I can do about it anyway, so I'm not going to do anything." The fatalist DOES think this. That's the difference between someone who believes in the absolute predestination of all things, and a fatalist. NON-FAtalists say, "whatsoever will come to pass will include me, and therefore I will make my contribution, and whatever I contribute, will have been predestined by God". Its' not the same!
alt7310 1 year ago
@alt7310
Fatalism Definition
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Fatalism is the thesis that human acts occur by necessity and hence are unfree. Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and hence unfree. If there is a being who knows infallibly the entire future, then no human act is free.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
again, whatever. you can be all technical about definitions if you like, but the plain fact is that in common usage the "fatalism" is one who has a submissive attitude to events such as the one described. I don't have such an attitude, so I'm not a fatalist. Fatalists say "may as well not bother" - you'll never catch me saying that.
alt7310 1 year ago
@alt7310
You are wrong on fatalism. Please provide a definition from a reputable source. Fatalism is not a chance happening outside of God, it is a fatal necessity that occurs by a deity which in Christianity there is only one God thus fatalism in Christianity is whatever God causes is caused by a fatal necessity. In Calvinism, this contingent act of God in causing makes the effect evil all of Gods and man is merely the instrument in which God does His evil.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
Oxford English Dictionary: "Fatalism: the belief that all events are predetermined; a submissive attitude to such events resulting from such a belief." But who cares about what the OED says? I'm using common usage theological/philosophical terminology here - OED doesn't account for that. I have told you already, I'm not a calvinist.
alt7310 1 year ago
@alt7310
Thank you your definition supports mine. It does matter how we define things. Again are you then saying that Christian truth is different than secular truth? More relativism. The Bible does not say we cannot kill. It says murder. We can judicially see justice is done as is done when Gods vengeance is carried out judicially. Therefore there is one truth for all. Not your relativism one truth for God and another for man.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
When God says "imitate me" it doesn't mean in every degree. It doesn't mean, "make lots of commands for people" it doesn't mean "be omnipotent". It means, "obey Jesus example of obeying God's commands TO MANKIND" So, Jesus NEVER took vengeance during his first coming. We are to imitate that.
alt7310 1 year ago
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Cootabux 1 year ago
And what about my other comment about free will. You haven't answered that one.
alt7310 1 year ago