A Scientific Debate on Race and Intelligence - Part 3 of 11

[cirosuperiore]

he says there are no races. but it does not stop blacks from demanding special privileges for blacks...is that a construct too???

[MyMindTank]

Nurture Dictates Nature.

[SomeUser9753]

Fuck u nation matters 

[SomeUser9753]

Well socio-political construct based on biological construct so it's biological construct again. So why is media and holywood and almost all this shit biologically oriented then ?

[thespacialone]

Wow, how were people like Dr Graves able to argue these sort of things? Utterly absurd.

[thespacialone]

How is it possible Dr Graves has a BA in biology?

[EgalitarianJay]

@thespacialone Obviously he went to school and earned it. As well as his Phd. What I find amazing is the fact that Rushton hasn't been fired from the University of Western Ontario. Although he has been reprimanded twice for inappropriate research practices which included giving students surveys that asked about their sexual habits including asking boys how far they could ejaculate. Rushton is a quack. Graves is a serious scientist.

[thespacialone]

Why is this man unable to pronounce corroboration properly?

[sethaus75]

The problem with Rushton and people like him is once he's on record declaring a certain hypothesis, under no circumstances will he ever concede that he may be wrong nor will he even modify his thesis in light of contradictory evidence. In other words, his ego won't ever let him admit he was wrong.

I'm not an expert but even I can shoot a million holes in Rushton's theories. But debating him is a waste of time. He will just redouble his efforts spouting the same junk he has always spouted.

[FIGHTFANNERD3]

this video must be old

[EgalitarianJay]

@FIGHTFANNERD3 Yep. 1997.

[Wanda7771]

Does each gene have a tag attached to it that says "I evolved 100,000 years ago in Africa or Asia or wherever?" NO I didn't think so. Its all speculation and these people are full of themselves.

[90rashad]

@PkInWild The truth lol hahaha whatever.

[DarwinzFriend]

Twin studies overwhelmingly confirm that intelligence is almost 80% predetermined by GENETICS. Even twins subjected to dramatic disparities of education, diet and social environment were found to have IQs which differed by less than 4 points, on average. This small difference is consistent with the statistical margin of error found in identical twins raised in identical environments!!!!

This correlation was strongest amongst identical twins of the highest/lowest IQ extremes.

[gmccall22]

@DarwinzFriend Is that you Groid? haha...I can't help but wonder what happened to you, and why you're not smart like SOME of your white cohorts. Someone who KNOWS they're smart doesn't troll, nor break their backs trying to prove something

[mindprism]

So if all these false "racial groups" are in fact a random selection of people based on prototypical traits -- then how did this random selection produce a clustered IQ result?

[Sabohaque]

@mindprism visible cultural minorities are often oppressed, not just by physical appearance but also by dress, language, custom, religion, etc. For example, all indigenous populations throughout the world score lower on IQ tests, regardless of what region of the world they occupy.

[MysticNinjaJay]

@PumpingSmashkins

What got Watson in trouble was the suggestion that Blacks were less intelligent than Whites not simply talking about IQ scores. I do not think he should have been punished however his words could be percieved as lending credibility to racialism. Organizations felt it best to distance themselves from him because of this.

[thespacialone]

@MysticNinjaJay IQ tests are designed to measure intelligence. If an IQ test could measure intelligence perfectly, one's performance on IQ tests would perfectly determine their intelligence.

It would be foolish to think 21st century humans understand the concept of intelligence well enough to measure it perfectly. It would be equally foolish, possibly far more so, to think they understood it imperfectly enough to render the data obtained from IQ testing arbitrary.

[EgalitarianJay]

@thespacialone It's debatable whether intelligence, however defined, is something that can be measured and ranked at all. While it's accepted that there is a hereditary component to mental ability there's no scientific basis to claiming that the cause of group differences in IQ is caused by genetic differences between those groups. That's what this discussion is about. The evolutionary arguments of Rushton which were refuted by Graves.

[thespacialone]

@EgalitarianJay 1/3 IQ tests test IQ, not "intelligence". IQ is a vital component of intelligence, but only a component, though one that CAN BE MEASURED.

By seeking to refute the idea of "measurable" intelligence, you're closing your mind to intelligence period - all for some PC cause. If something cannot be measured it cannot be said to exist! I mean, this is kindergarten stuff, right?

If, as you assert, Dr Graves is able to cast doubt on the potential for the variance of groups...

[thespacialone]

@EgalitarianJay 2/3 ...in IQ test performance, he's casting doubt on the evolutionary explanations, NOT on the myriad data, which stands in contradistinction to every absurdity you utter. Intelligence, as ALL traits, differs among individuals AND groups because NATURE DOES NOT DO "EQUAL".

The fact is that people are MASSIVELY different. African intelligence is suited to Africans living as Africans in Africa. Only Africans can understand what it is to be African, what African intelligence...

[thespacialone]

@EgalitarianJay 3/3 ...is, and how and why it operates in the way it does - same for Chinese, Russians, whatever (yes, I realize Africa is a big place and Africans are no more uniform than Europeans, i.e. extremely diverse). When did we forget this?

Imo, it is your intellectually fascistic "egalitarianism" that destroys any chance people have of understanding who they really are, how they can progress.

I'm done. This is just too moronic.

[EgalitarianJay]

@thespacialone I recommend you leave then because all you are doing is rambling. You don't not understand the scientific arguments being put fourth and have an emotional need to believe in a racist myth i.e. "Africans are stupid". That's what this race and IQ obsession is really all about. I uploaded this video for educational purposes for people who are genuinely interested in the arguments not for people like you making immature, emotional rants.

[thespacialone]

@EgalitarianJay In final clarification my position is thus: Africans excel in many forms of intelligence, many of which are not well understood. I will concede that shortfalls in certain types of intelligence have lead to an underselling of and derision toward other intelligence traits peculiar to Africans. Africans' natural affinity for language bears testament to the fact they think and learn in very different ways from Asians and Europeans, who I believe share greater commonality.

Whatever.

[EgalitarianJay]

@thespacialone In other words Africans are lacking in the general intelligence that matters to modern society but may excel at specific types of intelligence that only Africans are uniquely good at. So basically Africans are idiot savants in your view. Yeah nice theory, too bad it's based on nothing. Graves argument is that explanations for why and how populations allegedly came to have such marked differences in intellect are not based on valid scientific reasoning.

[EgalitarianJay]

@thespacialone If my tone sounds harsh it's because you came to my channel initially to mock the scholars challenging the assertions of Rushton. You insulted them, you called me a lunatic and you accuse me of some politically correct bias when I have presented this debate fairly and let people come to their own conclusions. You are not open-minded enough to try to understand the arguments being put fourth before you attack them. You put your ideology before your reasoning.

[EgalitarianJay]

@thespacialone Obviously he went to school and earned it. As well as his Phd. What I find amazing is the fact that Rushton hasn't been fired from the University of Western Ontario. Although he has been reprimanded twice for inappropriate research practices which included giving students surveys that asked about their sexual habits including asking boys how far they could ejaculate. Rushton is a quack. Graves is a respected scientist.

[thespacialone]

@MysticNinjaJay How would acknowledging the fact that groups scored differently on IQ tests and then drawing the WHOLLY RATIONAL conclusion that this meant some groups were more intelligent than others be taboo in anything but an intellectually bankrupt society?

It's like saying, the ability of Jamaicans to record fast times in the 100m sprint is not indicative of their ability to run fast. We know this to be an absurdity; we can see that Jamaicans are fast and fluid runners.

[thespacialone]

@MysticNinjaJay If people were sincere in their want to tackle, for example, sub-Saharan African underachievement in academic spheres, they would look at the BEST INTELLIGENCE DATA AVAILABLE and look to ways to capitalize on the areas in which they excelled. Africans are known for a sense of rhythm, and this translates to their pre-eminence in this form of intelligence when it's tested for. Maybe such knowledge could then be used to assist them in other areas which were lacking.

[thespacialone]

@MysticNinjaJay Maybe if teaching methods fully acknowledged the propensity for excellence in those areas, blacks could find ways to develop intelligence hitherto not understood. Maybe such methods could also later be incorporated to be of great benefit to non-Africans too.

If Africans tend generally to struggle with written pattern recognition, why is this? How can this be overcome? Unless you're prepared to LOOK AT THE DATA, however uncomfortable it might be, you'll never generate solutions.

[90rashad]

I hope whoever watch this video feel very sorry, for believing what Dr. Watson put out there, about blacks being inherently inferior to white people. He obtained that Nobel Peace prize falsely. He have 16% African ancestry lol, up yours Dr. Watson.

[EgalitarianJay]

@90rashad Watson is a respected scientist. I don't believe he hates Black people so his ancestry if it is true would not be an embarrassment to him I imagine but if you watch his interview with Henry Louis Gates Jr. He clearly has prejudices about African people. Watson developed his view about African intelligence after receiving a book from Richard Lynn about Race and IQ. He has no expertise on intelligence so his comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

[90rashad]

@EgalitarianJay The way we all are acting today is not natural to the ancient human being. We all was 1 at first.

[DarkShadowM99]

@EgalitarianJay Very well said

[90rashad]

@EgalitarianJay I mean I wish Africans and Europeans never met I swear I do.

[PumpingSmashkins]

@90rashad Watson didn't say anything about blacks being "inferior." He stated a simple, well-known fact, and for that he basically got fired. The only offensive thing he did was to apologize, and to state that there was no scientific basis for his beliefs, which he knows is incorrect. Blacks around the world score 15 points lower on all standardized intelligence tests. That's not racist--it's not even controversial, it's just simple fact. Debate the cause all you want, that's different.

[90rashad]

@PumpingSmashkins Not this black. Its probably those blacks who love attention but you sound really dumb, because it's not genetic. That's like saying white people is the reason why the twin towers collapsed in NY, and started war with Iraq for their oil. Blacks are not inferior, and whites are not superior. lol white people gotta love them, and hate them at the same time. I be so mad at white people because of ways, i be having reflexes in my dreams, and I be hitting things accidentally.

[PumpingSmashkins]

@90rashad lol, now that be a funny response, but again: it's about averages. It doesn't mean that there aren't very smart blacks, just as the enormous disparity in NBA players doesn't mean that there aren't very talented white basketball players. Your IQ may be 20 points or more higher than mine, for all I know, but that wouldn't be at odds in any way with the findings.

[90rashad]

@PumpingSmashkins well let me tell you this white supremacy is a disease, and whether you white folks like it or not y'all victims of it to. So how does it feel to know your are apart of a race, who had to brainwash the world in order to have power, and be seen as the most beautiful, when we all know that's not a fact? I know what you are going to ask me, because I studied most white people, when you make them mad they tend to spit out all their racism they hide.

[PumpingSmashkins]

@90rashad Not this white. In fact, I'll be right up front with what you would no doubt consider my "racism," what with your having been brainwashed with the PC tripe of the day. Unlike the zombified masses, white and black, I have senses that work, and a functional brain, and it doesn't matter how often, or how insistently I'm told up is down, I'm simply incapable of succumbing to such "enlightenment." I'll stick with that which is so ironically labelled "ignorance" these days.

[90rashad]

@PumpingSmashkins So when white people open their mouths.I want you all to think really hard. It's both redundant, and despicable, never to say the least. The Scrutiny of which y'all speak is otherly wrong, and painful. It's like someone drawing their sword, and piercing someones emotions. bleeding it's preposterous, and with same meaning adding absurdly to say the least.

[ImSmarterThanYuo]

@90rashad Did you not listen to Prof Rushton? or bother researching anthropological differences in races? Or reading Rushtons book, Race, Evolution & Behavior? This type of science is 'taboo'. Which to me is stupid, if it's true, then it's true. Anthropologists can determine a race based on just a simple skull, of course race is more than 'skin deep'.

[90rashad]

@ImSmarterThanYuo I just moved to a European country as a Ethiopian. I feel that its not fair for whites to generalize people of color. Wow 6 months was a long time ago don't you think Dr. Watson is the back bone of human society.

[EgalitarianJay]

From Keita (2004):

Many terms requiring definition for use describe demographic population groups better than the term 'race' because they invite examination of the criteria for classification. Population labels that may apply are 'ethnoancestral', 'bioethnic', 'ethnobiohistorical', 'ancestral-ethnic', 'social-designation', 'biocultural', 'biopopulation', 'ethnosocial', 'ancestral', 'ancestor-historical', 'origin group' and 'ethnogeographical'.

[EgalitarianJay]

@NappyHeadedHoe90210 Yes, jackass. There is a better model. One that does not prescribe to typological thinking. That's what the Conceptualizing Human Variation article is about. How best can we understand human genetic variation? Human variation structures into discordant clines with a high degree of overlap between geographic populations and considerable genetic variation within regional populations. Clines, Clusters and Ecotypes are applicable to human variation not race.

[EgalitarianJay]

@NappyHeadedHoe90210 Disotell showed that the tremendous variation within geographic populations and the disordance of traits indicates that no one phenotypic trait is ancestry informative. So race does not correlate with geography. There is genetic variation between geographic populations however it does not cluster into distinct evolutionary lineages. The essentialist and taxonomic models of race fail to accurately describe the true structure of human genetic variation.

[EgalitarianJay]

@NappyHeadedHoe90210 Witherspoon acknowledged the reliability of identifying geographic ancestry by genetic loci however also state that individuals from one population group can be more genetically similar to individuals from other groups than to their own stressing that assumption about phenotypic traits should not be made based on continental ancestry because of this. So Lewontin did not commit a fallacy. Both Edwards and Lewontin make valid points.

[EgalitarianJay]

@NappyHeadedHoe90210 Edward's accusation of a fallacy on Lewontin's part is false. Lewontin was vindicated by Witherspoon (2007).

[EgalitarianJay]

@NappyHeadedHoe90210 Disotell exploded that myth within the video.

[EgalitarianJay]

@NappyHeadedHoe90210 One of the trademarks of pseudoscience is the contradiction of itself even with in its own terms. Based on your logic race appears to be synonymous with any form of genetic variation you want it to be. The American Anthropological Association calls this the population model. We can call any population a race so long as it has an identifiable genetic structure therefore race systems are subjective and exist along a continuum. This is inconsistent with the words etymology.

[EgalitarianJay]

@reveal1914 For instance he tries to argue that if we were to fit Native Americans into one of the 3 racial groups he recognizes they would be classified as Mongoloids. Yet they are genetically distinct enough to be a 4th race. Which is it Dr. Rushton are they Mongoloids or are they their own race? The most laughable comment he made was that atrocities committed by Europeans are part of human nature while crimes committed by individual Blacks is due to racial genetics. This is nonsense.

[EgalitarianJay]

@reveal1914 If there is variation between any two populations you can use genetic analysis to identify individuals from those populations by gene frequency. That doesn't mean that those populations structure into races going by the traditional definition. Race does not equal genetic variation. It is defined as a genetically distance lineage within a species. Rushton's side doesn't look at all correct to me based on simple logic. He can't even decide how to classify people based on race....

[EgalitarianJay]

@reveal1914 Now what does all of this mean for Rushton's research? As Disotell explained it cannot be said that psychometricians are studying distinct biological entities when they claim to be studying race and IQ. Rushton's theory of biological racial traits that determine average intelligence and temperament based on correlations between IQ and various human characteristics is invalid because he is studying folk taxonomies and not real races. His theory has no scientific basis.

[EgalitarianJay]

@reveal1914 What all of that means is that traditional racial concepts such as the essentialist and taxonomic models fail to accurately describe human variation. As far as social construction is concerned it is noted that the demographic groups of nations such as the USA that are classified as races have a socio-political rather than biological root. African Americans, European Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Asians Americans etc. are not biological races.

[EgalitarianJay]

@reveal1914 If you read that Conceptualizing Human Variation article in full you will see that they argue 3 points against biological races 1) Greater within vs. between group variation in geographic populations leads to a lack of boundary between them 2) Genetic analysis indicate no simultaneous differentiation of human phenotypes corresponding with divergence from their founding population 3) Y-DNA and mtDNA lineages do not form phylogenetically distinct clusters grouping human phenotypes.

[EgalitarianJay]

@reveal1914 Basically Disotell is saying that while their is genetic and phenotypic variation no human populations form an evolutionarily distinct lineage that can be identified by their physical traits. You've got to research phylogenetics and the sub-species concept to understand this argument. I recommend the article,

"Conceptualizing Human Variation" which was published in nature. That article outlines why the biological concept of race does not work for humans. It does for some primates.

[EgalitarianJay]

@reveal1914 1) Polar bears and Brown Bears are not considered to be different species. Infact they can breed together to produce fertile offspring. They just don't encounter each other in the wild because they cannot survive in each others environments

2.) The study was able to identify the geographic origins of ones ancestors based on self-identified ethnicity. That's nothing spectacular. You could do that with any group of populations. That doesn't make those populations races.