I like how Beck quotes Franklin thinking it can only be attributed to Christianity. That quote fits the description of nearly every religion around the world.
Wow, the comments on here. I'm going to start by saying I'm not totally religious and the whole point of the video here is that one side gets support from the police and the other doesn't. Marriage is a religious thing, so getting the government involved in it is not "the separation of church and state" its the force of the state's will over the church's will.
The government and the police should not be involved in any forming of marriage based on what a particular religion allows or not.
Glenn Beck, a man so full of his own shit that he can't think of anything intelligent to say; so instead he babbles stupidly. Perhaps we could trick him into tasting some crazy glue- it works best when you put it on your lips Glenn . . .
"endowed by their creator"...okay, I'll give you that.
how about when one of your founding documents strictly says that the state shall not speak in support or advocacy of ANY religion? yeah...you 'America-loving patriots' seem to forget that, don't you?
What would the United States of America be like today if it had been founded by Catholics, Glenn, your old cult (and now you belong to the one that was inspired in part by Mohammedanism)? It would never have become the world's greatest nation. America is losing its Protestant roots and being taken over by papists, Mormons and to a lesser extent, Mohammedans.
@hatmap List of Mormon doctrine that agrees with the foundation of the United States:
We don't ever use the word, "heresy." The cornerstone of the First Amendment is that there is no such thing.
The Pursuit of Happiness as mentioned in the Declaration of Independence means that everyone has the right to find happiness themselves. Joseph Smith intended to find happiness because of the confusion between religions.
Like the Constitution, LDS government, too, has values to follow.
What's silly is that they never acknowledge that they are infringing on others' constitutional rights. But I guess the "right" to define marriage was not one that was 'lent' to mankind. God reserves that right for himself...or just those that speak for him.
@antigayrights Sadly for you, nobody is interested it what you would "allow", as you have no superiority over others. Marriage has been "redefined" many times in recent history, each time for the better. Or would you not have "condoned" a redefinition of marriage to include mixed race marriages? Ore would you have "objected" to people of color having the right to marry?
Gays aren't asking your permission or your blessing. All you will have to do is accept marriage equality. Got GOLDEN RULE?
If 'god' was real, then I have just one question for those who believe in that 'christian' god, if god is all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present and can suspend the laws of nature at 'his' whim, why then does not this christian god heal amputees? If there is one recent verifiable instance of this type of miraculous happening I will believe.
@journeyer58 You guys play too many video games or something. His powers are usually at best subtle, not supernatural. In addition, not all Christians are good, and neither does he respect one particular party. The essence of his power is often conceived as a coincidence. If there is any party he loves, it is the one that respects all of his creations for what they really are, which includes us.
@SirGabriel2076 I know it doesnt. Im just saying he (I say it because I dont know whether or not its supposed to be a man) could. You have to admit that he could if he wanted to right?
Beck tries to prove that Franklin, a Deist, was Christian because he said he believed in "one God" the "immortality of the soul" etc.. Any Deist, Muslim, Jew or many others would agree with that statement. Franklin was, in many other writings, was explicitly non-secular. As were Jefferson, Paine and Madison. Most of them believed in a creator, but not in a religion.
while some points were true, like follow the golden rule and people can believe in whatever the hell they want, some are completly off. first religious poeple blackmail people into becoming religious or christian. the US goaverment was founded on freedom of religious. and one does not have to believe in god to believe in the golden rule
woww soo liberals cry about seperation of church and state when you claim that america was based on christianity by christian founding fathers and cry about it when gay couples cant get married... so whats their way to defeat seperation of church and state... LET THE STATE RUN THE CHURCH??? lol and people say right wingers and fox news is hypocritical
If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. "George Washington"
If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495,
do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
You know if you believe in God that he is all powerful that he is in control than why are you worried about being attacked, God has done well for himself I as a human will not fight another human about God that is counterproductive to the message of God is it not?
@willthack13 Maybe politians in the 20th and 21st century but not before television Ben Franklin and our founding fathers, though they were flawed and human did not lack integrity they meant what they said and believed it
Well, Beck is right about one thing (amazingly); religious people should keep their beliefs to themselves and leave other people AND GOVERNMENT alone. And I absolutely love how distressed he is (I thought he was going to fake cry again) over the 15% of us who are atheists. Get used to it, Becky, the world is growing up.
It's just astonishing how Glenn beck deliberately misinterperates the founding fathers belief's to make it seem as though they all proffessed a strong church based government. None of them did. Glenn, the arguement isn't whether they believed in god or not, but whether they believe RELIGION should be the governing law. It is true Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, and Paine were all christian, but they wanted to avoid a government run on religion where WE THE PEOPLE DECIDE OUR BELIEFS.
And if "we the people" excluded the majority of the population?
No blacks (free or slaves), no Native Americans (to GW & Jefferson they we just "savages" and Jefferson wanted to "destroy all of them") and no women were included in that "we the people" - that's racist & sexist.
It's not relevant what those "founders" thought. This has become the new religion: worship the rich white men who owned slaves & committed the Gemocide of the Natives.
How does this not make sense to you people? Where do you think your rights come from? Congress?! That would mean that your rights cease to exist without a centralized government. I'm not a very religious person, but even that sounds scarier than believing in god. Beck isn't advocating a church state here. listen much.
Myabe people got "Common Sense," Glenn, and we realized that there isn't some mystical being in the sky manipulating every single thing that happens on Earth, and only working when we ask him to be nice.
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
I don't agree with this bible verse though I am a christian. Also Thomas Jefferson was a deist and Benjamin Franklin also said: I have serious doubts about the divinity of Jesus, to paraphrase.
So in review Glenn Beck statement is completely unfounded, mainly because of the first amendment: freedom of religion.
Glenn beck is so out of touch with the reality of the "founding fathers" he and many others distort their beliefs to fit in with their idea of what America should be. Many of the FFs believed in god but made sure to keep him out of the constitution. Take that Glenn you fact disregarding twat. And he makes it seem as if europeans are bad in Britain we got rid of the divine right of kings time before the war of independance. about 150 years before.
Glenn Beck may act like he hates Obama, but he really loves him. Not only has Obama not rolled back many neocon policies, but by acting like Obama is turning America into a Socialist, communist, Islamic, atheist, fascist, Marxist, anarchist, authoritarian, military hating military dictatorship, he has massive ratings. A win win for Beck.
such an idiot. apparently he has the solution to people not believing in God. First of all, it's a choice to believe in God or not to. Not believing isn't some sort of problem. The Catholic Church does absolutely nothing to deliver its message to younger audiences, so it's hard for young kids to relate to religion. Religion is supposed to adjust with the changing world, and the Vatican is about 50 years behind. It's embarrassing. I'm sure the case is the same with other faiths. Im a catholic btw
I don't think glenn is a liar........ at least you know where you stand 95 percent of the time with believers.... if u really pay attention, obama will scare the hell out of u 2,,,, quit being like the 15 yrs old rich kid, who says he has nothing people.
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
Hmm, Glenn seems to forget why we REALLY were a success, it all started long before 1776.
A bunch of technologically superior Europeans ( some of them were my ancestors, I freely admit ) took advantage of the native peoples. They allowed them to show them the layout of the land, how to grow food, etc. Then they used their superior weapons to murder millions of them. They pitted tribe against tribe and used them to kill off eachother.
This land was huge and resource rich Glenn, we took it.
LOL.. the numbers of non religious people are getting higher?.. i guess people are getting smarter.. is call'd evolutionary steps, people are questioning their faith and understanding its a bunch of bullshit.. You dont need the constitution to know that religion should be separated from politics.. it only corupts more... its ilogical, idiotic and backwardish to have a judeo-christian or a islamic theocracy..
If Glenn Beck ACTUALLY believes in God, he is in for a surprise! When did Jesus become pro-war? When did God go with GUNS AND GOLD? Read the freaking bible! And he calls himself a Christian. What a disgrace.
i like glenn beck that much more after watching this
these liberal idiots and the government think they have the constitution on their side cuz we Christians are unconstitutional for not allowing gay marriage but guess waht assholes that is our religion our belief is that its an abomination and have ever since it was written thousands of years ago and by taking over our churches over for our beliefs it is them that are breaking the constitution by attacking our beliefs
The Golden Rule? Com'on Glenn. Set a good example. You've got more money than you can spend on anything sensible. Give it away. Show us what a good christian you are. Put your money where your mouth is.
The Founding Fathers were vehemently against religion mixing in politics. The Constitution uses the term "creator" and not "God" for that very reason. Ben Franklin told Jefferson that parts of his initial version of the Constitution "smacked of the pulpit." THAT'S WHY THERE'S A SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE!!!
Why do idiots on the right and the left always act like they are not allowed to express their opinions? HELLO!?! Are they being locked up for doing so? NO! What makes them think that they suddenly will be tomorrow?
What a bunch of hypocrites, always the martyrs. Religious cults need to quietly disappear for no other reason than at their core is falsehood, hatred and the imprisonment of the human spirit.
wow there are some serious nut jobs in this world these days... if many had thier way... there would be no more free speach or right to have ones own opinion, or dare oppose anything the presidant does lol
The BBC has a world service which has been viewed as many people as the best news channel. As for anchors "not afraid to make waves" - do you really think that's a good quality? Any idiot can make waves talking garbage. I, however, prefer a news service which is fair, informative and impartial for me to make my own informed opinions which I value as much as you do yours. A real news channel will have an impartial anchor and bring in people with different views to debate amongst each other.
From a European perspective, I think this news channel is a joke. This is a news channel. However, this video is the tedious musings of an inept anchor followed by a "debate" with two people who are religious and agree with him. For the love of God watch the BBC news. It is the closest one to impartiality.
Well speaking from a European perspective as well, I disagree with you. There is more bias on the BBC, especially on Channel 4, than there are coverage of standing up for integrity and values.
Also the law never gave the state authority over the church, it merely made churches have a board of ley members participate in the finances, like most other churches have.
Bill Donohue: "Its two guys who are angry at the catholic church because the church says two guys can't get married."
No dumbass, its because a catholic priest in Darien, CT (along with his gay lover) stole $400k from his parish. Its something that would have never happened if the church's finances were watched like every other institutions is.
Also, how does this constitute an attack on god? Read the gospels and tell me god would care about church financing
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
Both quotes from Benjamin Franklin. Glen Beck surrounds himself with people that share the same ignorant view as him and has no opposition on this subject. Why? Because he knows that there is a separation between church and state for a reason. And letting your bible taint the political view you have is unconstitutional and your political ideology should be rejected and thrown out.
Isn't Divine Right and God founded this country basically the same religious bullshit? Kings could claim, by DR, that ANYTHING was HIS Will and do it. How is that different from King George invoking God and then using the Constitution for toilet paper?
maybe, maybe not, but he at least has guts enough to state his views. having ones own opinion is a very american concept. something thats obviously lacking in so many lefters these days lol
how the fuck is having an opinion an american concept? And just 'cause he 'has enough guts to state his views' (he gets paid by Fox to do what they say) that doesn't make him a better person. Anyway he just shits his views all over the thick fucks that watch fox so that they all think in the same way. Oh and lefters do have an opinion, we just dont coat it in sugar and lies, jackass.
never said hes a better person, i dont agree with everything he says, nor do i agree with most of the crap republicans say, or many of the democrats for that matter. this country needs more independants that will take a stand against this POS government that we have these days. i didt like the last pres, and i dont like this one either. thats my opinion, im an american, i dindt sugarcoat anything. if that makes me a jackass then that is your opinion, which you have every right to have.
Glenn Beck admitted to not doing ABSOLUTELY ANY RESEARCH before going on the air, because in his own words, he is not a journalist, he is a commentator. Therefore he can just make up whatever the heck he wants. Consider this before following him.
Still spewing the lies generated by the girls on the view, You don't even realise the irrelevance of you statement because you dont even watch the clip. You are just a leftist lying propagandist. oh yeah, you're also full of shit
There's only one real problem with Franklins ideas, the whole idea of "natural rights". Rights endowed by God? Rights are only worth a damn if they are backed by force, in other words, the state. Try taking your "natural rights" to Somalia, see how they protect you there. The rights of any one individual are completely dependent on the force backing them up, hence a strong govt. is crucial to administering these rights.
In the face of a silly, peremptory, anti-intellectual remark such as yours, I am forced to admit that I am simply not speaking your language, sir. I would close by encouraging you to be tolerant toward those who do not share your views. It is entirely your business to be an atheist. But your aggressive, militant secular jihadism is obnoxious, and (quite frankly) low class. Learn to be more accepting toward those who are religious, or you will have very few friends indeed.
p.s. a simple question: If god is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, knows the number of the hairs on your head, etc......then someone PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY HE NEEDS LEGIONS OF BELIEVERS TO DEFEND HIM????
To a believer, he's everything. To a non-believer, he's nothing. His being has no independence from your belief--and you're free to believe! But don't make fun of me when I choose to wait and see what is supported by evidence and observation.
Speaking as a Catholic, I must say you certainly ask a very strange question. Those of us who believe in God don't do so because God somehow "needs" us (any more than Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens "need" you to peddle their claptrap). We are the ones who benefit from our relationship with God, not the other way around. Your relativistic assertion that "his being has no independence from your belief" merely betrays your own solipsism.
I've got thoughts, Sean. I'm not just peddling claptrap. Of course some benefit from religious behavior- I've done it myself in the past. But it IS behavior, after all. One can choose it or not. I stand by my statement- I see evidence for belief in god, but none for god. BTW: Nobody has to believe in Hitchens/Dawkins or any other living author. They're patently extant. To GB- if divine providence was part of the founding of this country, then genocide and war are divine.
Finally, re: solipsism. Why would we require physical evidence in so many areas of our lives, yet dispense with it when it comes to the biggest unknowns (why are we here, what happens after death, etc)?? Seems much more honest to simply say "I don't know. I'll wait and see what happens." Just my opinion. My brain's far from perfect, but it's the one I've got. I choose to use it and believe in what's real.
Of course I require "evidence" of God, and of the validity of my own religion as well. I am surrounded by such evidence every moment of every day. To me the evidence is overwhelming. I have never "dispensed" with my need for empirical evidence in my lifelong search for truth and meaning. What you claim is "much more honest" is only honest for you. As for myself, and the billions of others who share my beliefs, we don't have to "wait and see." We have found our answer, and we are satisfied.
Those are both thoughtful questions. I would be quite hypocritical if I asserted one belief but then stated that contradictory beliefs are also true. As for the best evidence, I would say that I cannot decide between science, revelation, history, and philosophy. To me everything in science points to God, and everything in revelation and philosophy points specifically to Jesus and the Church. History proves the existence of Jesus, and His own words and my faith reveal to me that He is the Truth.
As for "live and let live," well I don't go around blowing up people who don't agree with me, so I guess "live and let live" would describe my approach, certainly. Catholics believe that you don't have to be Catholic, or Christian, to go to heaven. You must abide by the will of God according to your own informed conscience. That doesn't mean we don't believe that Christianity is the one true faith. But we also believe that God is just, and merciful, and that He alone has the right to judge.
Yes, look at all the Catholics who smite, drown, plague, and burn people. Why, one can't cross the street without being attacked by a gang of vicious Catholic nuns. And look at all the Catholic bishops who are flying airplanes into skyscrapers these days... Simply tragic. Atheists, on the other hand, such as Hitler, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Mao-Tse-Tung have a very impressive humanitarian track record.
No, you don't know that about priests. You know only what has been said by bigots. Read the Princeton University study of clerical sexual abuse, and the John Jay College Study of same. They both conclude that fewer than 1.5 % of priests have ever even been accused of such misconduct, which is far lower than protestant clergy, rabbis, and imams, public school teachers, and mental health care professionals. Save your hatred and bigotry for them, if you have to hate someone (and you evidently do).
"No, you don't know that about priests" Really? Why did the Catholic church recently settle a pedophilia case out of court for, if I remember correctly, over 100 MILLION dollars?
I wasn't talking about protestants, clergy, imams, school teachers, etc. What does that have to do with the fact that priests have committed those crimes? Why should we criticise the crimes of the folks you listed but ignore the priests?
Are you claiming that priests have not molested children?
Does reading pose a challenge? I never claimed that no priest ever harmed a child. But the studies I cited prove that it's rare. Catholic clergy have by far the lowest rates of clerical abuse of minors, yet you focus solely on them anyway, as if the Church is no more than the sum total of its mistakes. This is bigotry pure and simple. Fix the areas of society where this is a serious problem (like public schools and mental health care institutions) and then you can lecture me about my Church.
"Catholic clergy have by far the lowest rates of clerical abuse of minors" LOL, really? Where did you find that information?
You never answered the question. Why did the Church settle a multi-million dollar case out of court? This case involved numerous child molestation charges.
Why do Church officals try to protect the pedophiles? Why don't they report the offenses to the police immediately instead of letting it go on for years.
For heaven's sake, Jeremy, I told you twice already where that information comes from: the Princeton University study and the John Jay College Report. UPenn Professor Philip Jenkins also has written extensively on this. I'm emailing you a study with a bibliography although reading comprehension is a serious stumbling block with you. As for the out-of-court settlements, this is always done at the behest of a spineless insurance company which deems it cheaper than paying for an actual court case.
Out of court settlements are ALWAYS the fault of insurance companies? Wow, you'll say anything to cover the pedophiles. And what about the convictions? Were they falsely accused? The Church is well known for covering for pedophiles instead of referring them to police. Again, do you defend this practice?
The "study" you're quoting is a work of propaganda. I wish I could get back the time I wasted reading it.
Wow... I never knew that the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, as well as Johns Hopkins, Princeton University, and the John Jay College were closeted Catholic propagandists. It amazes me that you still assert that "the Church is well known" for harboring evil child predators even though I have proven to you that this is largely a misperception because of uncritical people like you being manipulated by anti-Christian media bigots. Why focus on the least culpable, instead of the most?
As Lichtenberg put it, "A book is like a mirror. If a monkey looks into it, no apostle will look back!" You read a report which was independently researched by non-Catholic universities which indisputably proves that sexual abuse is a far greater problem in Protestant churches and public schools, but that doesn't fit into your bigoted worldview, so you dismiss it. Go out and find me a university study which supports your bigotry and which is as thoroughly cited as this report was. Good luck!
Of course out of court settlements are always preferred by insurance companies which would otherwise have to pay for trials, which is far costlier. You really didn't know that? That certainly doesn't mean that there haven't been priests who have been guilty of these atrocities, but why do you focus all of your hatred on them when (as the report I emailed to you proves, like it or not) non-Catholic clergy as well as public school teachers and mental health care workers have a much bigger problem?
Strawman. I didn't make the claims you're attributing to me. This is quite amusing.
I'm focusing on the Church and it's pedophilia problem on THIS THREAD. I never said the Church is the only offender. I know that child absuse occurs in other religious organizations. For some reason, you bellieve that YOUR religion is special. It just pains you that a Catholic would harm a child but you'll blame protestants, I guess because they're the wrong kind of Xian.
It pains me that anyone would harm a child. My point, which you predictably were unable to grasp, was that this is not a "Catholic" problem as it has been portrayed by the media and other bigots such as yourself. There's very little sport in making you wrong, I must say! You're like that inflatable clown toy which just keeps coming back for more every time you punch it in the nose.
I could tell you, but what would be the point? You are not interested in an exchange of different ideas. You are interested in bigotry, as your previous post proves. Every time I pray or read the Bible and find the answer I seek, that is evidence for me. Every time I receive the Sacraments of Eucharist or Reconciliation and I am completely renewed spiritually, that is evidence. The overpowering love that exists within my family, which is far greater than the sum of all of us, is evidence too.
My contempt of the brainwashing of children doesn't make me a bigot. My objection to inserting theistic nonsense in science classes doesn't either. You understand what a "bigot" is.
"Every time I pray read the Bible and find the answer I seek, that is evidence for me" That's no more "evidence" than when a tribesman prays for rain.
"Every time I receive the Sacraments of Eucharist..." Ritual cannibalism.
You can love without the assistance of an imaginary friend.
"What does atheism have to do with communism?" Marx preached atheism wherever he went, because he knew that Christianity emphasized the love of God for the individual, and Marxism can only succeed if the individual is superceded by the collective. There are no individual rights in a communist state. Hence Cuba, China, the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam, et cetera were not exactly nice places to live for anyone who cherishes freedom and personal dignity. You would have loved them, though.
You're confused. Atheism has nothing to do with Communism. Communism is a political ideology. There are many Christians who are Communists. Most Communists are religious people. Many Communist countries have state religions.
Your ignorance is appalling, but may have more to do with the failure of your teachers than any personal stupidity on your part. Read Marx, and then read the Bible, and tell me you can be both a communist and a Christian. You evidently have failed to notice that every communist nation that has ever existed has been officially atheistic, though some have tolerated limited Christian worship though it is tightly controlled by the Communist state. Perhaps you think that carnivores can be be vegans?
"tell me you can be both a communist and a Christian.' Are you trying to make an intelligent argument? Again, MANY CHRISTIANS ARE COMMUNISTS. Go ask THEM about it.
Early Christianity was communistic.
There was only one nation that I know of that was officially atheistic. Again, most communist nations have state religions. Sometimes they make their leader a god. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
Oh, my. "Early Christianity was communistic" is patently absurd. You are referring to the koinonia, which was their communal lifestyle based upon the Beatitudes. Reality check: THIS WAS VOLUNTARY. They did this because they CHOSE to do so out of religious conviction and their desire to grow in love for God and one another! They weren't forced into it at sword's point like mere ants living in a godless totalitarian anthill! How can you be so uneducated as to be unable to tell the difference?
Not all communists are forced to be communists. Many communists are loyal.
And it's absurd how you try to contrast Xianity with communism, the former supposedly being "voluntary." OBEY ME OR BURN" is not a choice. It's a threat.
"They weren't forced into it at sword's point like mere ants living in a godless totalitarian anthill! "
Luke 19: 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Are you being willfully ignorant? That quote from Luke was spoken by a king within a parable! Did you really think that was supposed to represent Jesus telling his followers to kill non-Christians in the name of Jesus? This from the same man who said, "Love thy neighbor," "turn the other cheek," and "live by the sword, die by the sword"? Christians are called to nonviolence, though they (like you) often miss the point. Not as deliberately as you consistently seem to, I must say.
I wasn't quoting a particular passage. There are numerous passages concerning god established authority. To say otherwise is contemptible on your part.
Just a by the by, I'll take it as an agreement on your part that you didn't oppose my statement that totalitarianism, in whatever form, grew out of the most religious countries. The facts are irrefutable, so even if you personally believe that Christianity guards against the evils of statism... the real world disagrees.
Uhh... you most certainly did quote a particular passage. You even thoughtfully provided the chapter and verse! (Luke 19: 27). Then you completely misrepresented it. Perhaps you forgot. After all it was nearly an hour ago. As for "Christianity guarding against the evils of statism," it sometimes happens that fascists have won (at least for a while). But you may have noticed it hasn't happened here. Then again, you probably didn't.
A religious person talking about ignorance. What's next? Cats and dogs living together?
"every communist nation that has ever existed has been officially atheistic, though some have tolerated limited Christian worship though it is tightly controlled ...."
All totalitarian governments have come about in the most religious countries. Of course a communist state will seek to destroy, or control, religion. State Communism seeks to destroy all competition. It has nothing to do with atheism.
The point is they became officially atheistic AFTER they became communist! Not before! You have obviously never read Marx, or Stalin, or Guevara, or Mao, all of whom explicitly explained why belief in God was incompatible with communism. Because if you believe in the Christian God, you also believe in the inherent dignity, value, uniqueness, and unreplaceability of each and every human being. But to be a communist you must ignore individual dignity and rights and sacrifice both to the state.
The Bible clearly states that people in authority positions were put there by God, so one must show obedience to them as tho they would to God.
Whether a communist state became "officially atheistic" or not is irrelevant. As I stated, State Communism seeks to destroy or control ALL other ideologies. If you're trying to blame atheism for (state) Communism then you are either being intellectually dishonest or you don't know what you're talking about.
Your snide opening sentence which suggests that all religious people are stupid reeks of bigotry, intolerance, and bombast. Evidently you feel that 90% of the population of the United States (the proportion which self-identifies as either religious or spiritual) is dumber than you are. I sure hope that's not true, or else we're all in a lot of trouble.
The 90% figure comes from a variety of sources, including the recent Time poll, as well as the Pew Poll and the Quinnipiac Polling Center. We are in a lot of trouble if our political leadership listens to radical secularist jihadists like you, because godlessness in government has not served the world very well, as Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and many other examples would prove. You might have loved to live in those places but I prefer religious America.
"The 90% figure comes from a variety of sources..." All the polls and news reports I've read report a higher percentage. I guess polls aren't an exact science, eh?
"Nazi Germany" Godless? LOL, Hitler was a Catholic.
I agree that many people in America are religious. However, the government is secular. Go read the Constitution. You'll find no mention of Yahweh, Jesus or Xianity. The secular nature of the government protects your religious freedom. Please go learn about it.
"The Führer is deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." -from Goebbels' diary. In speeches of course Hitler would at times proclaim religious belief in order to win over his audience. But it's well known that he repudiated the Church early in life, that he hated Christianity, and that Catholics were to be persecuted. Dachau had the largest concentration of priests on earth, hence its nickname: world's largest monastery. Speer wrote a great deal about this as well.
Every idiot in the world who hates the Church loves to claim that Hitler was a Catholic. All this does is prove that you are not only an anti-Catholic bigot, but that you are totally ignorant of history. Read a biography on Hitler (the ones by Heisler, de Concini, and Kendall are quite long but don't worry they have lots of pictures). Even if Hitler were a devout Catholic (an absurd notion) what would that prove, other than his own failure to understand Jesus? Do you ever weary of being wrong?
"Read a biography on Hitler." YOU should read his auto-biography. He clearly states that he is a Catholic, numerous times.
"Even if Hitler were a devout Catholic what would that prove, other than his own failure to understand Jesus?" I guess it would prove the same as stating that Stalin was a atheist. What does atheism have to do with Stalin's tyranny?
Unsurprisingly your every utterance is completely ass-about-face. Stalin's atheism has EVERYTHING to do with his tyranny. Under his code of ethics, he never did anything wrong, because he was the one writing the code! Your attempt to make a Catholic out of Hitler serves only to parade your own idiocy. In an infamous communique to Alfred Jodl he called for "the extermination of the whole whoring bunch of them" (Catholics). If you had ever read any history at all you would know that.
"Stalin's atheism has EVERYTHING to do with his tyranny. Under his code of ethics, he never did anything wrong"
Atheism doesn't offer a code of ethics. Atheism only tells you want we DO NOT believe, nothing more.
But very well, Catholicism had EVERYTHING to do with Hitler's actions. He certainly could find justification for many of his evil deeds in the "good" book.
"he was the one writing the code! " Not exaclty. "The majority fought against him. PEOPLE determine what is "moral."
Oh, come on. The Bible has nothing to do with nazism. Those nazis who professed to be Christians obviously didn't understand Christianity any better than you do. Do you never tire of your bigoted canards? As for atheism and ethics, if you read Mazhvinsky's biography of Stalin you would understand that this ex-seminarian believed that, once you stripped higher law out of the picture, there was no such thing as "wrong." That's why he shut down the churches. He was threatened by them. As are you.
"Those nazis who professed to be Christians obviously didn't understand Christianity"
Says who? You? There are hundreds of denominations of Xianity and many of them are quite violent.
Atheism professes no morals or dogma. There is no holy book that tells atheists what to do. You don't even understand what atheism means.
Stalin grew up in a religious family and joined a seminary as a teenager expecting to enter the priesthood. Religion was obviously an influence in his life.
Then why did Stalin leave the seminary long before he became a bloodthirsty tyrant? Because, as he wrote in his own diary (one of many books which you need to read), "In order to convert the masses to the ways of Marxism it will be necessary to teach them that God does not exist." He even closed the churches down all over Russia, reopening them only in 1942 when the war was going badly. Even Stalin knew that Christianity was incompatible with communism. He knew more than you do, or ever shall.
Anyone else with a brain who doesn't harbor bigotry against Christianity gets this. It is inherently peaceful. Anyone who claims to be a Christian who is violent is obviously not a good Christian. I have at times in our exchange not been a good one either, because I have let your ignorance make me angry instead of being tolerant with you. That's not my religion's fault. It's mine. Atheists have no holy book, just as you say. My point exactly, all along. Thank you for putting it so succinctly.
The fact is that the bible is full of incitements to violence. It's true that many Christians are peaceful. That just goes to show that most people have enough common sense not to follow the advice of the Bible. I wager that most of these peaceful Xians would be peaceful anyway. Religion isn't necessary.
"Atheists have no holy book, just as you say. My point exactly." You make it sound as though having a holy book is desirable. Dogma is not good.
That is fundamentally where we don't agree (well, that plus all of your historical misinformation, that is). I believe that if everyone lived by the Golden Rule that the world would be a much happier, better, and more just place for all of us. I will be the first to admit that I often fail to treat others as respectfully as I should. I hope to be better at it someday. I'll try to start with you. No hard feelings.
I don't agree with this advice as it is described in the Bible. Would you walk into an insane asylum and ask the patients there to "do unto you how they'd do unto themselves?"
The point is that as soon as you try to pin down an absolutely moral from some holy book, you can always think of exceptions. Morality cannot be determined from Bronze Age texts. WE must judge what is moral.
Of course we should be nice to each other. We should also be humble and admit when WE DO NOT KNOW.
Your silly point that the Golden Rule doesn't necessarily apply to crazy people is truly desperate. Naturally I agree with you that we should always be humble and "admit when we don't know." It is not humble to project your own uncertainties onto those of us who do not entertain them. Thus more than 2 billion of the world's people will always inform their consciences through the Bible. Only some will succeed, and even they will sometimes fail. That merely reflects our own weakness.
Pfft.
The Declaration of Independence was based almost entirely upon the work of English Philosopher John Locke, who hypothesised that:
“All mankind... being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions.”
BasilFawlty4444 3 weeks ago
I like how Beck quotes Franklin thinking it can only be attributed to Christianity. That quote fits the description of nearly every religion around the world.
What a quote miner this guy is!
Howsonify 6 months ago
Wow, the comments on here. I'm going to start by saying I'm not totally religious and the whole point of the video here is that one side gets support from the police and the other doesn't. Marriage is a religious thing, so getting the government involved in it is not "the separation of church and state" its the force of the state's will over the church's will.
The government and the police should not be involved in any forming of marriage based on what a particular religion allows or not.
Deathiroth 7 months ago
@Deathiroth
While some religions have created marriage ceremonies for themselves, marriage is NOT a religious thing.
zspec1 7 months ago
@Deathiroth
Also, government marriage has zero to do with religious marriage ceremonies.
zspec1 7 months ago
Glenn Beck, a man so full of his own shit that he can't think of anything intelligent to say; so instead he babbles stupidly. Perhaps we could trick him into tasting some crazy glue- it works best when you put it on your lips Glenn . . .
Poochalot 8 months ago
"endowed by their creator"...okay, I'll give you that.
how about when one of your founding documents strictly says that the state shall not speak in support or advocacy of ANY religion? yeah...you 'America-loving patriots' seem to forget that, don't you?
Stevie2Sxc 9 months ago
What would the United States of America be like today if it had been founded by Catholics, Glenn, your old cult (and now you belong to the one that was inspired in part by Mohammedanism)? It would never have become the world's greatest nation. America is losing its Protestant roots and being taken over by papists, Mormons and to a lesser extent, Mohammedans.
hatmap 10 months ago
@hatmap List of Mormon doctrine that agrees with the foundation of the United States:
We don't ever use the word, "heresy." The cornerstone of the First Amendment is that there is no such thing.
The Pursuit of Happiness as mentioned in the Declaration of Independence means that everyone has the right to find happiness themselves. Joseph Smith intended to find happiness because of the confusion between religions.
Like the Constitution, LDS government, too, has values to follow.
SirGabriel2076 8 months ago
The founding fathers believed in separation of church and state. You fail, Mr. Beck.
AlphaRocketX 10 months ago
What's silly is that they never acknowledge that they are infringing on others' constitutional rights. But I guess the "right" to define marriage was not one that was 'lent' to mankind. God reserves that right for himself...or just those that speak for him.
KPMcGeeZer 10 months ago
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@antigayrights Sadly for you, nobody is interested it what you would "allow", as you have no superiority over others. Marriage has been "redefined" many times in recent history, each time for the better. Or would you not have "condoned" a redefinition of marriage to include mixed race marriages? Ore would you have "objected" to people of color having the right to marry?
Gays aren't asking your permission or your blessing. All you will have to do is accept marriage equality. Got GOLDEN RULE?
schlummieleinchen 11 months ago
If 'god' was real, then I have just one question for those who believe in that 'christian' god, if god is all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present and can suspend the laws of nature at 'his' whim, why then does not this christian god heal amputees? If there is one recent verifiable instance of this type of miraculous happening I will believe.
journeyer58 11 months ago
@journeyer58 You guys play too many video games or something. His powers are usually at best subtle, not supernatural. In addition, not all Christians are good, and neither does he respect one particular party. The essence of his power is often conceived as a coincidence. If there is any party he loves, it is the one that respects all of his creations for what they really are, which includes us.
SirGabriel2076 8 months ago
god could stop the gays and muslims by sending a thunderbolt at them like Pikachu, but clearly he doesnt, either he isnt real or he hates christians
MamaMario13 1 year ago
@MamaMario13 That is the god of the Ancient Greeks, Zeus. the Christian God doesn't work like that.
SirGabriel2076 8 months ago
@SirGabriel2076 I know it doesnt. Im just saying he (I say it because I dont know whether or not its supposed to be a man) could. You have to admit that he could if he wanted to right?
MamaMario13 8 months ago
oh so if we are not christian we will fail as a nation? what the hell is this guy talking about?
gothicfuneral1 1 year ago
Beck tries to prove that Franklin, a Deist, was Christian because he said he believed in "one God" the "immortality of the soul" etc.. Any Deist, Muslim, Jew or many others would agree with that statement. Franklin was, in many other writings, was explicitly non-secular. As were Jefferson, Paine and Madison. Most of them believed in a creator, but not in a religion.
BradloRaul 1 year ago
while some points were true, like follow the golden rule and people can believe in whatever the hell they want, some are completly off. first religious poeple blackmail people into becoming religious or christian. the US goaverment was founded on freedom of religious. and one does not have to believe in god to believe in the golden rule
Katiesmartgirl56 1 year ago
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“Don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.” - Ariel Sharon
karlkarlkarl1234 1 year ago
I just became so much stupider watching this clip
12stepriver 1 year ago 6
so if you believe in a religion that doesn't revolve around the christian views of god, you're not fit to run the country?
I'm not atheist, I'm just not christian.
ninjabuddy1 1 year ago
America was founded on religious freedom...............hopefully people stopped listening to this after the first couple sentences.
ManOlantern12 1 year ago 2
woww soo liberals cry about seperation of church and state when you claim that america was based on christianity by christian founding fathers and cry about it when gay couples cant get married... so whats their way to defeat seperation of church and state... LET THE STATE RUN THE CHURCH??? lol and people say right wingers and fox news is hypocritical
cletedawgthewalmart 1 year ago
I'm surprised. Glenn Beck is actually right on some issues. I thought he was hard-core conservative, but it seems he's more center-right.
BowofRama10 1 year ago
@BowofRama10 nice try, he's a tool
FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7 1 year ago
@FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7 sorry I tried:)
BowofRama10 1 year ago
If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. "George Washington"
mzyzer19 1 year ago
If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495,
mzyzer19 1 year ago
do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
mzyzer19 1 year ago
Always interesting when a crotch convert to the Angel Moroni Fan Club gives his 2 cents worth on the religious motivations of others.
BenAliGtor 1 year ago
You know if you believe in God that he is all powerful that he is in control than why are you worried about being attacked, God has done well for himself I as a human will not fight another human about God that is counterproductive to the message of God is it not?
0Thadius0 1 year ago
He who quotes a politician to prove his opinion is a fool.
willthack13 1 year ago
@willthack13 Maybe politians in the 20th and 21st century but not before television Ben Franklin and our founding fathers, though they were flawed and human did not lack integrity they meant what they said and believed it
0Thadius0 1 year ago
He should read up on the English Civil War. Americans ended the divine right of kings. Fucking douchebags.
scottward12 1 year ago
DUDE YOUR A FOOL !
MrAnjal1975 1 year ago
Wow. What part of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" implies that "God" should be the center of your life?
windigo77 1 year ago
Well, Beck is right about one thing (amazingly); religious people should keep their beliefs to themselves and leave other people AND GOVERNMENT alone. And I absolutely love how distressed he is (I thought he was going to fake cry again) over the 15% of us who are atheists. Get used to it, Becky, the world is growing up.
jerico641 1 year ago
It's just astonishing how Glenn beck deliberately misinterperates the founding fathers belief's to make it seem as though they all proffessed a strong church based government. None of them did. Glenn, the arguement isn't whether they believed in god or not, but whether they believe RELIGION should be the governing law. It is true Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, and Paine were all christian, but they wanted to avoid a government run on religion where WE THE PEOPLE DECIDE OUR BELIEFS.
2008eazye 1 year ago
@2008eazye
And if "we the people" excluded the majority of the population?
No blacks (free or slaves), no Native Americans (to GW & Jefferson they we just "savages" and Jefferson wanted to "destroy all of them") and no women were included in that "we the people" - that's racist & sexist.
It's not relevant what those "founders" thought. This has become the new religion: worship the rich white men who owned slaves & committed the Gemocide of the Natives.
Beck sounds just like a televangelist
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@2008eazye
Well, it is FOX News after all isn't it? I wouldn't be so completely surprised.
DorkTheNerdInvader1 1 year ago
How does this not make sense to you people? Where do you think your rights come from? Congress?! That would mean that your rights cease to exist without a centralized government. I'm not a very religious person, but even that sounds scarier than believing in god. Beck isn't advocating a church state here. listen much.
el3m3ntsk8s 1 year ago
Myabe people got "Common Sense," Glenn, and we realized that there isn't some mystical being in the sky manipulating every single thing that happens on Earth, and only working when we ask him to be nice.
872463051 1 year ago
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
I don't agree with this bible verse though I am a christian. Also Thomas Jefferson was a deist and Benjamin Franklin also said: I have serious doubts about the divinity of Jesus, to paraphrase.
So in review Glenn Beck statement is completely unfounded, mainly because of the first amendment: freedom of religion.
ThePoliticist 1 year ago
@ThePoliticist
I apologize for my original statement accept for my opening and closing line.
I obviously did not pay enough attention to what he said.
ThePoliticist 1 year ago
@ThePoliticist
You should stop telling other people that your morals are more important than theirs, Glenn Beck, if you want Christianity to survive.
ThePoliticist 1 year ago
Glenn beck is so out of touch with the reality of the "founding fathers" he and many others distort their beliefs to fit in with their idea of what America should be. Many of the FFs believed in god but made sure to keep him out of the constitution. Take that Glenn you fact disregarding twat. And he makes it seem as if europeans are bad in Britain we got rid of the divine right of kings time before the war of independance. about 150 years before.
cook119 1 year ago
Glenn Beck is like Justin Bieber....you either love him or hate him!
(though I seem to be the only person here who likes Glenn Beck)
jdfrt12569 1 year ago
@jdfrt12569 Because your a fucking idiot...The man thinks hes a prophet
WispyPlane 1 year ago
Fox news .... get your propaganda here. Socialist State or Corporate State which is worse?,,,,NEITHER.......the Glen Beck State!!
rcoones102 1 year ago
Glenn Beck may act like he hates Obama, but he really loves him. Not only has Obama not rolled back many neocon policies, but by acting like Obama is turning America into a Socialist, communist, Islamic, atheist, fascist, Marxist, anarchist, authoritarian, military hating military dictatorship, he has massive ratings. A win win for Beck.
Dacadvid 1 year ago
Does something done in God's name mean he actually had a hand in it and is responsible?
jdbohdan 1 year ago
why is this man on the air?
italianny23 1 year ago
Look at that face America. His boyish grin and uneducated jabs will be the end of this country.
RobertPhel 1 year ago
OMG its the fortune cookie commentator!
This guy is McCarthy with a crew cut.
bdgstone 1 year ago
Ben Franklin also said that lighthouses are more helpful than churches. Glenn Beck is a liar and an moron!
slocinmi 1 year ago
such an idiot. apparently he has the solution to people not believing in God. First of all, it's a choice to believe in God or not to. Not believing isn't some sort of problem. The Catholic Church does absolutely nothing to deliver its message to younger audiences, so it's hard for young kids to relate to religion. Religion is supposed to adjust with the changing world, and the Vatican is about 50 years behind. It's embarrassing. I'm sure the case is the same with other faiths. Im a catholic btw
tojo620 1 year ago
seems like Fox News is biased...
canadior 1 year ago
what made you think that?
troz2501 1 year ago
I don't think glenn is a liar........ at least you know where you stand 95 percent of the time with believers.... if u really pay attention, obama will scare the hell out of u 2,,,, quit being like the 15 yrs old rich kid, who says he has nothing people.
utubergeorgia 1 year ago
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-Benjamin Franklin
custodianofanarchy 1 year ago
deism is not the problem. religion is.
gossieuk 1 year ago 3
I love God, and watch how man people want to ridicule me for it.
sephirothhoots 1 year ago 2
no one wants to ridicule for your beliefs just dont tell me what i should believe in.this is why i dont like this guy
troz2501 1 year ago 2
"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."
- Benjamin Franklin
jensen1901 2 years ago 41
@jensen1901
I agree. Good old Ben Franklin =)
DorkTheNerdInvader1 1 year ago
America is falling apart because we don't have as much religion as before. Yeah right, when we were super religious all we had was problems.
MrBlackfish011 2 years ago
Cause in America the religious are so oppressed. BULLSHIT
MrBlackfish011 2 years ago
Douche.
ch1aka2 2 years ago
Hmm, Glenn seems to forget why we REALLY were a success, it all started long before 1776.
A bunch of technologically superior Europeans ( some of them were my ancestors, I freely admit ) took advantage of the native peoples. They allowed them to show them the layout of the land, how to grow food, etc. Then they used their superior weapons to murder millions of them. They pitted tribe against tribe and used them to kill off eachother.
This land was huge and resource rich Glenn, we took it.
RebelGuy95 2 years ago 2
apparently the voices in Glenn's head all sound like Kermit the Frog, and it comes out in his attempts at impressions.
Lopkop19 2 years ago 3
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GOD BLESS AMERICA
MrChubchubchub 2 years ago
LOL.. the numbers of non religious people are getting higher?.. i guess people are getting smarter.. is call'd evolutionary steps, people are questioning their faith and understanding its a bunch of bullshit.. You dont need the constitution to know that religion should be separated from politics.. it only corupts more... its ilogical, idiotic and backwardish to have a judeo-christian or a islamic theocracy..
Deadleader555 2 years ago 2
joelaka3pac123, "we Christians"? then you say "assholes"? pfffftttt. you're no Christian any more than Beck is beautiful.
by the way, how credible are you to believe when your run-on sentences are a train wreck...
windew 2 years ago
If Glenn Beck ACTUALLY believes in God, he is in for a surprise! When did Jesus become pro-war? When did God go with GUNS AND GOLD? Read the freaking bible! And he calls himself a Christian. What a disgrace.
raskolnikovsulysses 2 years ago 3
get used to it....apparently God's mouthpieces like Pat Robertson support stronger nuclear armament.
Lopkop19 2 years ago
he's not christian. he's moron. and you think your so smart. What a disgrace.
SuperShyGuy62 1 year ago
What does God say?
vrghiks 2 years ago
i like glenn beck that much more after watching this
these liberal idiots and the government think they have the constitution on their side cuz we Christians are unconstitutional for not allowing gay marriage but guess waht assholes that is our religion our belief is that its an abomination and have ever since it was written thousands of years ago and by taking over our churches over for our beliefs it is them that are breaking the constitution by attacking our beliefs
joelaka3pac123 2 years ago
instead of calling them assholes shouldn't you forgive them?
Lopkop19 2 years ago
The Golden Rule? Com'on Glenn. Set a good example. You've got more money than you can spend on anything sensible. Give it away. Show us what a good christian you are. Put your money where your mouth is.
Johnbizzen 2 years ago
those people sound like they ran from the crazy house,
ManRic2 2 years ago
The Founding Fathers were vehemently against religion mixing in politics. The Constitution uses the term "creator" and not "God" for that very reason. Ben Franklin told Jefferson that parts of his initial version of the Constitution "smacked of the pulpit." THAT'S WHY THERE'S A SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE!!!
DerekTheComic 2 years ago
So if Glenn Beck disagrees with someone he does a Kermit the Frog voice to represent them. How mature.
ledawg1138 2 years ago
Revelation 17 & 18
wslancesandy 2 years ago
Ya'll notice how Beck acts rather, um, girly?
windew 2 years ago
Have you seen Jon Stewart's impression? It is really effeminate...and hilarious.
raskolnikovsulysses 2 years ago
bub, which clip is that?
windew 2 years ago
Why do idiots on the right and the left always act like they are not allowed to express their opinions? HELLO!?! Are they being locked up for doing so? NO! What makes them think that they suddenly will be tomorrow?
PeterAct2 2 years ago
What a bunch of hypocrites, always the martyrs. Religious cults need to quietly disappear for no other reason than at their core is falsehood, hatred and the imprisonment of the human spirit.
painterrable 2 years ago
wow there are some serious nut jobs in this world these days... if many had thier way... there would be no more free speach or right to have ones own opinion, or dare oppose anything the presidant does lol
joe69rocket 2 years ago
The BBC has a world service which has been viewed as many people as the best news channel. As for anchors "not afraid to make waves" - do you really think that's a good quality? Any idiot can make waves talking garbage. I, however, prefer a news service which is fair, informative and impartial for me to make my own informed opinions which I value as much as you do yours. A real news channel will have an impartial anchor and bring in people with different views to debate amongst each other.
aaronmcc23 2 years ago
Oh, Glenn Beck, you're so wacky.
DJBonnar 2 years ago
in other words
"not religious? oh you must have no morals then"
BenJEMean 2 years ago 14
@BenJEMean you dont have to be religious to have morals
MORTONLGG 9 months ago
From a European perspective, I think this news channel is a joke. This is a news channel. However, this video is the tedious musings of an inept anchor followed by a "debate" with two people who are religious and agree with him. For the love of God watch the BBC news. It is the closest one to impartiality.
aaronmcc23 2 years ago
Well speaking from a European perspective as well, I disagree with you. There is more bias on the BBC, especially on Channel 4, than there are coverage of standing up for integrity and values.
EmilyGreene1984 2 years ago
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joe69rocket 2 years ago
Also the law never gave the state authority over the church, it merely made churches have a board of ley members participate in the finances, like most other churches have.
ptsheffer 2 years ago
Bill Donohue: "Its two guys who are angry at the catholic church because the church says two guys can't get married."
No dumbass, its because a catholic priest in Darien, CT (along with his gay lover) stole $400k from his parish. Its something that would have never happened if the church's finances were watched like every other institutions is.
Also, how does this constitute an attack on god? Read the gospels and tell me god would care about church financing
ptsheffer 2 years ago
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
Both quotes from Benjamin Franklin. Glen Beck surrounds himself with people that share the same ignorant view as him and has no opposition on this subject. Why? Because he knows that there is a separation between church and state for a reason. And letting your bible taint the political view you have is unconstitutional and your political ideology should be rejected and thrown out.
nxxbcannon 2 years ago 2
Isn't Divine Right and God founded this country basically the same religious bullshit? Kings could claim, by DR, that ANYTHING was HIS Will and do it. How is that different from King George invoking God and then using the Constitution for toilet paper?
RadarKat73080 2 years ago
Right wing nuts like Glen Beck really don't do much good for their cause do they, he's arguably worse than Bill
Talog999 2 years ago
You obviously have alot of hatred.
EmilyGreene1984 2 years ago
maybe, maybe not, but he at least has guts enough to state his views. having ones own opinion is a very american concept. something thats obviously lacking in so many lefters these days lol
joe69rocket 2 years ago
@joe69rocket
how the fuck is having an opinion an american concept? And just 'cause he 'has enough guts to state his views' (he gets paid by Fox to do what they say) that doesn't make him a better person. Anyway he just shits his views all over the thick fucks that watch fox so that they all think in the same way. Oh and lefters do have an opinion, we just dont coat it in sugar and lies, jackass.
Talog999 2 years ago
never said hes a better person, i dont agree with everything he says, nor do i agree with most of the crap republicans say, or many of the democrats for that matter. this country needs more independants that will take a stand against this POS government that we have these days. i didt like the last pres, and i dont like this one either. thats my opinion, im an american, i dindt sugarcoat anything. if that makes me a jackass then that is your opinion, which you have every right to have.
joe69rocket 2 years ago
Sir, I may remind you that not everyone believes in your God. Or even your church!
hotsingle1983 2 years ago
Glenn Beck admitted to not doing ABSOLUTELY ANY RESEARCH before going on the air, because in his own words, he is not a journalist, he is a commentator. Therefore he can just make up whatever the heck he wants. Consider this before following him.
aeonjoey 2 years ago
Still spewing the lies generated by the girls on the view, You don't even realise the irrelevance of you statement because you dont even watch the clip. You are just a leftist lying propagandist. oh yeah, you're also full of shit
bluegsp 2 years ago
There's only one real problem with Franklins ideas, the whole idea of "natural rights". Rights endowed by God? Rights are only worth a damn if they are backed by force, in other words, the state. Try taking your "natural rights" to Somalia, see how they protect you there. The rights of any one individual are completely dependent on the force backing them up, hence a strong govt. is crucial to administering these rights.
biggsy182 2 years ago
In the face of a silly, peremptory, anti-intellectual remark such as yours, I am forced to admit that I am simply not speaking your language, sir. I would close by encouraging you to be tolerant toward those who do not share your views. It is entirely your business to be an atheist. But your aggressive, militant secular jihadism is obnoxious, and (quite frankly) low class. Learn to be more accepting toward those who are religious, or you will have very few friends indeed.
dseanmat 2 years ago
p.s. a simple question: If god is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, knows the number of the hairs on your head, etc......then someone PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY HE NEEDS LEGIONS OF BELIEVERS TO DEFEND HIM????
To a believer, he's everything. To a non-believer, he's nothing. His being has no independence from your belief--and you're free to believe! But don't make fun of me when I choose to wait and see what is supported by evidence and observation.
drumrnva 2 years ago
Speaking as a Catholic, I must say you certainly ask a very strange question. Those of us who believe in God don't do so because God somehow "needs" us (any more than Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens "need" you to peddle their claptrap). We are the ones who benefit from our relationship with God, not the other way around. Your relativistic assertion that "his being has no independence from your belief" merely betrays your own solipsism.
dseanmat 2 years ago
I've got thoughts, Sean. I'm not just peddling claptrap. Of course some benefit from religious behavior- I've done it myself in the past. But it IS behavior, after all. One can choose it or not. I stand by my statement- I see evidence for belief in god, but none for god. BTW: Nobody has to believe in Hitchens/Dawkins or any other living author. They're patently extant. To GB- if divine providence was part of the founding of this country, then genocide and war are divine.
drumrnva 2 years ago
Finally, re: solipsism. Why would we require physical evidence in so many areas of our lives, yet dispense with it when it comes to the biggest unknowns (why are we here, what happens after death, etc)?? Seems much more honest to simply say "I don't know. I'll wait and see what happens." Just my opinion. My brain's far from perfect, but it's the one I've got. I choose to use it and believe in what's real.
drumrnva 2 years ago
Of course I require "evidence" of God, and of the validity of my own religion as well. I am surrounded by such evidence every moment of every day. To me the evidence is overwhelming. I have never "dispensed" with my need for empirical evidence in my lifelong search for truth and meaning. What you claim is "much more honest" is only honest for you. As for myself, and the billions of others who share my beliefs, we don't have to "wait and see." We have found our answer, and we are satisfied.
dseanmat 2 years ago
Does the validity of yours equal invalidity for all others, or are you 'live-and-let-live'? What's the best evidence that you know of?
drumrnva 2 years ago
Those are both thoughtful questions. I would be quite hypocritical if I asserted one belief but then stated that contradictory beliefs are also true. As for the best evidence, I would say that I cannot decide between science, revelation, history, and philosophy. To me everything in science points to God, and everything in revelation and philosophy points specifically to Jesus and the Church. History proves the existence of Jesus, and His own words and my faith reveal to me that He is the Truth.
dseanmat 2 years ago
As for "live and let live," well I don't go around blowing up people who don't agree with me, so I guess "live and let live" would describe my approach, certainly. Catholics believe that you don't have to be Catholic, or Christian, to go to heaven. You must abide by the will of God according to your own informed conscience. That doesn't mean we don't believe that Christianity is the one true faith. But we also believe that God is just, and merciful, and that He alone has the right to judge.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"we also believe that God is just, and merciful"
Smiting, drowning, cursing, plaguing and burning people is not just or merciful.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Yes, look at all the Catholics who smite, drown, plague, and burn people. Why, one can't cross the street without being attacked by a gang of vicious Catholic nuns. And look at all the Catholic bishops who are flying airplanes into skyscrapers these days... Simply tragic. Atheists, on the other hand, such as Hitler, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Mao-Tse-Tung have a very impressive humanitarian track record.
dseanmat 2 years ago
Are you saying that Catholics haven't murdered in the name of their religion?
I know that many Catholic priests enjoy raping little kids.
Christians never kill other Christians because they're the wrong kind of Christian? Christians don't set car bombs and kill abortion doctors?
And what does your comment have to do with the fact that the God of the bbile IS a smiting, drowning, cursing, plaguing, burning Cosmic Thug?
What does Atheism have to do with Communism? You're confused.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
No, you don't know that about priests. You know only what has been said by bigots. Read the Princeton University study of clerical sexual abuse, and the John Jay College Study of same. They both conclude that fewer than 1.5 % of priests have ever even been accused of such misconduct, which is far lower than protestant clergy, rabbis, and imams, public school teachers, and mental health care professionals. Save your hatred and bigotry for them, if you have to hate someone (and you evidently do).
dseanmat 2 years ago
"No, you don't know that about priests" Really? Why did the Catholic church recently settle a pedophilia case out of court for, if I remember correctly, over 100 MILLION dollars?
I wasn't talking about protestants, clergy, imams, school teachers, etc. What does that have to do with the fact that priests have committed those crimes? Why should we criticise the crimes of the folks you listed but ignore the priests?
Are you claiming that priests have not molested children?
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Does reading pose a challenge? I never claimed that no priest ever harmed a child. But the studies I cited prove that it's rare. Catholic clergy have by far the lowest rates of clerical abuse of minors, yet you focus solely on them anyway, as if the Church is no more than the sum total of its mistakes. This is bigotry pure and simple. Fix the areas of society where this is a serious problem (like public schools and mental health care institutions) and then you can lecture me about my Church.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"Catholic clergy have by far the lowest rates of clerical abuse of minors" LOL, really? Where did you find that information?
You never answered the question. Why did the Church settle a multi-million dollar case out of court? This case involved numerous child molestation charges.
Why do Church officals try to protect the pedophiles? Why don't they report the offenses to the police immediately instead of letting it go on for years.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
For heaven's sake, Jeremy, I told you twice already where that information comes from: the Princeton University study and the John Jay College Report. UPenn Professor Philip Jenkins also has written extensively on this. I'm emailing you a study with a bibliography although reading comprehension is a serious stumbling block with you. As for the out-of-court settlements, this is always done at the behest of a spineless insurance company which deems it cheaper than paying for an actual court case.
dseanmat 2 years ago
Out of court settlements are ALWAYS the fault of insurance companies? Wow, you'll say anything to cover the pedophiles. And what about the convictions? Were they falsely accused? The Church is well known for covering for pedophiles instead of referring them to police. Again, do you defend this practice?
The "study" you're quoting is a work of propaganda. I wish I could get back the time I wasted reading it.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Wow... I never knew that the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, as well as Johns Hopkins, Princeton University, and the John Jay College were closeted Catholic propagandists. It amazes me that you still assert that "the Church is well known" for harboring evil child predators even though I have proven to you that this is largely a misperception because of uncritical people like you being manipulated by anti-Christian media bigots. Why focus on the least culpable, instead of the most?
dseanmat 2 years ago
No, the report does not disprove the claim that the Church has harbored sexual predators. You're engaging in some selective reading.
And you failed to mention all the contributors to the report. Many of them are highly questionable.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
As Lichtenberg put it, "A book is like a mirror. If a monkey looks into it, no apostle will look back!" You read a report which was independently researched by non-Catholic universities which indisputably proves that sexual abuse is a far greater problem in Protestant churches and public schools, but that doesn't fit into your bigoted worldview, so you dismiss it. Go out and find me a university study which supports your bigotry and which is as thoroughly cited as this report was. Good luck!
dseanmat 2 years ago
Of course out of court settlements are always preferred by insurance companies which would otherwise have to pay for trials, which is far costlier. You really didn't know that? That certainly doesn't mean that there haven't been priests who have been guilty of these atrocities, but why do you focus all of your hatred on them when (as the report I emailed to you proves, like it or not) non-Catholic clergy as well as public school teachers and mental health care workers have a much bigger problem?
dseanmat 2 years ago
Strawman. I didn't make the claims you're attributing to me. This is quite amusing.
I'm focusing on the Church and it's pedophilia problem on THIS THREAD. I never said the Church is the only offender. I know that child absuse occurs in other religious organizations. For some reason, you bellieve that YOUR religion is special. It just pains you that a Catholic would harm a child but you'll blame protestants, I guess because they're the wrong kind of Xian.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
It pains me that anyone would harm a child. My point, which you predictably were unable to grasp, was that this is not a "Catholic" problem as it has been portrayed by the media and other bigots such as yourself. There's very little sport in making you wrong, I must say! You're like that inflatable clown toy which just keeps coming back for more every time you punch it in the nose.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"Of course I require "evidence" of God" What evidence?
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
I could tell you, but what would be the point? You are not interested in an exchange of different ideas. You are interested in bigotry, as your previous post proves. Every time I pray or read the Bible and find the answer I seek, that is evidence for me. Every time I receive the Sacraments of Eucharist or Reconciliation and I am completely renewed spiritually, that is evidence. The overpowering love that exists within my family, which is far greater than the sum of all of us, is evidence too.
dseanmat 2 years ago
My contempt of the brainwashing of children doesn't make me a bigot. My objection to inserting theistic nonsense in science classes doesn't either. You understand what a "bigot" is.
"Every time I pray read the Bible and find the answer I seek, that is evidence for me" That's no more "evidence" than when a tribesman prays for rain.
"Every time I receive the Sacraments of Eucharist..." Ritual cannibalism.
You can love without the assistance of an imaginary friend.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
"What does atheism have to do with communism?" Marx preached atheism wherever he went, because he knew that Christianity emphasized the love of God for the individual, and Marxism can only succeed if the individual is superceded by the collective. There are no individual rights in a communist state. Hence Cuba, China, the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam, et cetera were not exactly nice places to live for anyone who cherishes freedom and personal dignity. You would have loved them, though.
dseanmat 2 years ago
You're confused. Atheism has nothing to do with Communism. Communism is a political ideology. There are many Christians who are Communists. Most Communists are religious people. Many Communist countries have state religions.
Sigh.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Your ignorance is appalling, but may have more to do with the failure of your teachers than any personal stupidity on your part. Read Marx, and then read the Bible, and tell me you can be both a communist and a Christian. You evidently have failed to notice that every communist nation that has ever existed has been officially atheistic, though some have tolerated limited Christian worship though it is tightly controlled by the Communist state. Perhaps you think that carnivores can be be vegans?
dseanmat 2 years ago
"tell me you can be both a communist and a Christian.' Are you trying to make an intelligent argument? Again, MANY CHRISTIANS ARE COMMUNISTS. Go ask THEM about it.
Early Christianity was communistic.
There was only one nation that I know of that was officially atheistic. Again, most communist nations have state religions. Sometimes they make their leader a god. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Oh, my. "Early Christianity was communistic" is patently absurd. You are referring to the koinonia, which was their communal lifestyle based upon the Beatitudes. Reality check: THIS WAS VOLUNTARY. They did this because they CHOSE to do so out of religious conviction and their desire to grow in love for God and one another! They weren't forced into it at sword's point like mere ants living in a godless totalitarian anthill! How can you be so uneducated as to be unable to tell the difference?
dseanmat 2 years ago
Not all communists are forced to be communists. Many communists are loyal.
And it's absurd how you try to contrast Xianity with communism, the former supposedly being "voluntary." OBEY ME OR BURN" is not a choice. It's a threat.
"They weren't forced into it at sword's point like mere ants living in a godless totalitarian anthill! "
Luke 19: 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Are you being willfully ignorant? That quote from Luke was spoken by a king within a parable! Did you really think that was supposed to represent Jesus telling his followers to kill non-Christians in the name of Jesus? This from the same man who said, "Love thy neighbor," "turn the other cheek," and "live by the sword, die by the sword"? Christians are called to nonviolence, though they (like you) often miss the point. Not as deliberately as you consistently seem to, I must say.
dseanmat 2 years ago
I wasn't quoting a particular passage. There are numerous passages concerning god established authority. To say otherwise is contemptible on your part.
Just a by the by, I'll take it as an agreement on your part that you didn't oppose my statement that totalitarianism, in whatever form, grew out of the most religious countries. The facts are irrefutable, so even if you personally believe that Christianity guards against the evils of statism... the real world disagrees.
RPFS2008 2 years ago
Uhh... you most certainly did quote a particular passage. You even thoughtfully provided the chapter and verse! (Luke 19: 27). Then you completely misrepresented it. Perhaps you forgot. After all it was nearly an hour ago. As for "Christianity guarding against the evils of statism," it sometimes happens that fascists have won (at least for a while). But you may have noticed it hasn't happened here. Then again, you probably didn't.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"you most certainly did quote a particular passage. You even thoughtfully provided the chapter and verse! (Luke 19: 27)"
Err.. False.
RPFS2008 2 years ago
My error. It was a different (if remarkably likeminded) hatemongering ignoramus entirely.
dseanmat 2 years ago
A religious person talking about ignorance. What's next? Cats and dogs living together?
"every communist nation that has ever existed has been officially atheistic, though some have tolerated limited Christian worship though it is tightly controlled ...."
All totalitarian governments have come about in the most religious countries. Of course a communist state will seek to destroy, or control, religion. State Communism seeks to destroy all competition. It has nothing to do with atheism.
RPFS2008 2 years ago
The point is they became officially atheistic AFTER they became communist! Not before! You have obviously never read Marx, or Stalin, or Guevara, or Mao, all of whom explicitly explained why belief in God was incompatible with communism. Because if you believe in the Christian God, you also believe in the inherent dignity, value, uniqueness, and unreplaceability of each and every human being. But to be a communist you must ignore individual dignity and rights and sacrifice both to the state.
dseanmat 2 years ago
The Bible clearly states that people in authority positions were put there by God, so one must show obedience to them as tho they would to God.
Whether a communist state became "officially atheistic" or not is irrelevant. As I stated, State Communism seeks to destroy or control ALL other ideologies. If you're trying to blame atheism for (state) Communism then you are either being intellectually dishonest or you don't know what you're talking about.
RPFS2008 2 years ago
Your snide opening sentence which suggests that all religious people are stupid reeks of bigotry, intolerance, and bombast. Evidently you feel that 90% of the population of the United States (the proportion which self-identifies as either religious or spiritual) is dumber than you are. I sure hope that's not true, or else we're all in a lot of trouble.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"Your snide opening sentence which suggests that all religious people are stupid" Which opening sentence?
Not all religious people are stupid. It's possible to be intelligent AND brainwashed.
"90% of the population of the United States" Really, where did you get those statistics?
We're in a lot of trouble if what...if more people decide not to believe in virgin births, resurrections, flying Jews and talking donkeys?
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
The 90% figure comes from a variety of sources, including the recent Time poll, as well as the Pew Poll and the Quinnipiac Polling Center. We are in a lot of trouble if our political leadership listens to radical secularist jihadists like you, because godlessness in government has not served the world very well, as Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and many other examples would prove. You might have loved to live in those places but I prefer religious America.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"The 90% figure comes from a variety of sources..." All the polls and news reports I've read report a higher percentage. I guess polls aren't an exact science, eh?
"Nazi Germany" Godless? LOL, Hitler was a Catholic.
I agree that many people in America are religious. However, the government is secular. Go read the Constitution. You'll find no mention of Yahweh, Jesus or Xianity. The secular nature of the government protects your religious freedom. Please go learn about it.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
"The Führer is deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." -from Goebbels' diary. In speeches of course Hitler would at times proclaim religious belief in order to win over his audience. But it's well known that he repudiated the Church early in life, that he hated Christianity, and that Catholics were to be persecuted. Dachau had the largest concentration of priests on earth, hence its nickname: world's largest monastery. Speer wrote a great deal about this as well.
dseanmat 2 years ago
Hitler claimed throughout his life that he was a Catholic and also said so in his auto-biography.
Hitler routinely claimed that he was doing the Lord's word when persecuting the Jews.
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." - 1938
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Engel in 1941.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Every idiot in the world who hates the Church loves to claim that Hitler was a Catholic. All this does is prove that you are not only an anti-Catholic bigot, but that you are totally ignorant of history. Read a biography on Hitler (the ones by Heisler, de Concini, and Kendall are quite long but don't worry they have lots of pictures). Even if Hitler were a devout Catholic (an absurd notion) what would that prove, other than his own failure to understand Jesus? Do you ever weary of being wrong?
dseanmat 2 years ago
"Read a biography on Hitler." YOU should read his auto-biography. He clearly states that he is a Catholic, numerous times.
"Even if Hitler were a devout Catholic what would that prove, other than his own failure to understand Jesus?" I guess it would prove the same as stating that Stalin was a atheist. What does atheism have to do with Stalin's tyranny?
Nothing.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Unsurprisingly your every utterance is completely ass-about-face. Stalin's atheism has EVERYTHING to do with his tyranny. Under his code of ethics, he never did anything wrong, because he was the one writing the code! Your attempt to make a Catholic out of Hitler serves only to parade your own idiocy. In an infamous communique to Alfred Jodl he called for "the extermination of the whole whoring bunch of them" (Catholics). If you had ever read any history at all you would know that.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"Stalin's atheism has EVERYTHING to do with his tyranny. Under his code of ethics, he never did anything wrong"
Atheism doesn't offer a code of ethics. Atheism only tells you want we DO NOT believe, nothing more.
But very well, Catholicism had EVERYTHING to do with Hitler's actions. He certainly could find justification for many of his evil deeds in the "good" book.
"he was the one writing the code! " Not exaclty. "The majority fought against him. PEOPLE determine what is "moral."
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Oh, come on. The Bible has nothing to do with nazism. Those nazis who professed to be Christians obviously didn't understand Christianity any better than you do. Do you never tire of your bigoted canards? As for atheism and ethics, if you read Mazhvinsky's biography of Stalin you would understand that this ex-seminarian believed that, once you stripped higher law out of the picture, there was no such thing as "wrong." That's why he shut down the churches. He was threatened by them. As are you.
dseanmat 2 years ago
"Those nazis who professed to be Christians obviously didn't understand Christianity"
Says who? You? There are hundreds of denominations of Xianity and many of them are quite violent.
Atheism professes no morals or dogma. There is no holy book that tells atheists what to do. You don't even understand what atheism means.
Stalin grew up in a religious family and joined a seminary as a teenager expecting to enter the priesthood. Religion was obviously an influence in his life.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Then why did Stalin leave the seminary long before he became a bloodthirsty tyrant? Because, as he wrote in his own diary (one of many books which you need to read), "In order to convert the masses to the ways of Marxism it will be necessary to teach them that God does not exist." He even closed the churches down all over Russia, reopening them only in 1942 when the war was going badly. Even Stalin knew that Christianity was incompatible with communism. He knew more than you do, or ever shall.
dseanmat 2 years ago
Anyone else with a brain who doesn't harbor bigotry against Christianity gets this. It is inherently peaceful. Anyone who claims to be a Christian who is violent is obviously not a good Christian. I have at times in our exchange not been a good one either, because I have let your ignorance make me angry instead of being tolerant with you. That's not my religion's fault. It's mine. Atheists have no holy book, just as you say. My point exactly, all along. Thank you for putting it so succinctly.
dseanmat 2 years ago
The fact is that the bible is full of incitements to violence. It's true that many Christians are peaceful. That just goes to show that most people have enough common sense not to follow the advice of the Bible. I wager that most of these peaceful Xians would be peaceful anyway. Religion isn't necessary.
"Atheists have no holy book, just as you say. My point exactly." You make it sound as though having a holy book is desirable. Dogma is not good.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
That is fundamentally where we don't agree (well, that plus all of your historical misinformation, that is). I believe that if everyone lived by the Golden Rule that the world would be a much happier, better, and more just place for all of us. I will be the first to admit that I often fail to treat others as respectfully as I should. I hope to be better at it someday. I'll try to start with you. No hard feelings.
dseanmat 2 years ago
I don't agree with this advice as it is described in the Bible. Would you walk into an insane asylum and ask the patients there to "do unto you how they'd do unto themselves?"
The point is that as soon as you try to pin down an absolutely moral from some holy book, you can always think of exceptions. Morality cannot be determined from Bronze Age texts. WE must judge what is moral.
Of course we should be nice to each other. We should also be humble and admit when WE DO NOT KNOW.
Atheistjeremy 2 years ago
Your silly point that the Golden Rule doesn't necessarily apply to crazy people is truly desperate. Naturally I agree with you that we should always be humble and "admit when we don't know." It is not humble to project your own uncertainties onto those of us who do not entertain them. Thus more than 2 billion of the world's people will always inform their consciences through the Bible. Only some will succeed, and even they will sometimes fail. That merely reflects our own weakness.
dseanmat 2 years ago