Mormon Christian debate - Mormons are Christians (Church of Jesus Christ)

[pangeanet]

@fractalfires John fell and worshipped an angel in Revelations 22 when speaking with an angel. I can only imagine what it would be like to be in the presence of any heavenly being. You could use this to attack the Holy Bible but certainly we know that John did not worship an angel.

[pangeanet]

@fractalfires 3 Nephi 19: 22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them. It was one of the special circumstances that Jesus Christ was actually physically present with them and so as the advocate with the Father, in this instance they could pray to Him directly trusting Him to carry their prayers to the Father.



[pangeanet]

@fractalfires Jesus Christ Himself taught us to pray unto God the Father. The Book of Mormon teaches the same thing as I have already shown you with one of several specific examples.

[pangeanet]

@fractalfires absolutely yes it does and it mentions God the Father at least three times specifically. 3 Nephi 18:18-21. "Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name; 20 And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you. 21 Pray in your families unto the Father, always in my name, that your wives and your children may be blessed."

[pangeanet]

@fractalfires good question Christ Himself taught us the manner in how to pray in the Lord's prayer it is recorded in two places one in Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4. There are several variations including the original Greek text but they all teach that we should pray to "our Father in Heaven" and so we teach, believe and practice as well.

[harvestsoulfly]

@fractalfires Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:58 "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

John 10:33 "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Isaiah 41:4 I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he

Revelation 1:17 Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:"

[pangeanet]

@fractalfires actually there is it describes each one specifically. Christ taught us to kneel, pray to and worship God the Father, in His name (that of Jesus Christ) by the power of the Holy Ghost. They are separate beings but ONE in every other way--most especially in purpose. This is what matters the most and I can see why some people including those who lived prior to 325AD felt confusion as the actual definition which was why they got together and voted, as men, creating the Nicean Creed.

[pangeanet]

@fractalfires we only have one God just as the 10 Commandments states "Ye Shall Have No Other Gods Before Me". God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same in every possible way yet literally are three separate, distinct beings..for example; as described during the baptism of Jesus Christ by John The Baptist; God the Father spoke to those present, "Behold My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" as the Holy Ghost appeared in the form of a dove, proving this as well.

[Danthious]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23 This is someone who emphatically pronounces Christ as their Lord...but their defenceisgoodworks

[pangeanet]

@Danthious I have to emphatically agree very good comment.

[Christianrockrockz]

It all comes down to how you define "Christian". I believe that a Christian is a person who accepts Jesus the Messiah as his/her lord and savior, keeps the first two commandments which Jesus claims are the two most important, asks forgiveness when they fall, and spread the Word.

[iplaykazoo1300]

As "Christians" why would the Mormon church deem it necessary to have a Book of Mormon? If you believe that Christ is the son of God and Part of the holy trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) there should be but one book that is Holy or even worthy of reading and taking as law for christians. The bible is the word, and the word was God and the word is God. If you do not take the bible as a whole, if you think it needs anything extra to make it complete, then you are not christians.

[pangeanet]

@iplaykazoo1300 Who says there can only be those books compiled in the Holy Bible? Where did they come from were they originally all one book? No, the Bible consists of several different books. Are you saying that God can no longer speak? Those are your definitions or those of certain men not of God. To me a Christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ, to add your own rules is putting your own spin on the definition of who a follower of Jesus Christ is, changed by you not by God.

[pangeanet]

@iplaykazoo1300 We also believe the Book of Mormon ~ Another Testament of Jesus Christ does not take away from the Holy Bible but merely supports and strengthens its testimony of Jesus Christ. I must ask have you actually read the Book of Mormon all the way through or at all? I think you will be surprised at what you find considering Jesus Christ is the central focus, His birth, teachings, ministry, miracles, atonement, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension into heaven promising to return.

[Dadutta]

Mormons are Christians, but not TRUE Christians.

Mormons accept the same; they believe Protestants are Christians, but not true Christians, or at least not as true as themselves.

[pangeanet]

@Dadutta personally I believe the most 'true' Christian is the one who most follows the teachings of Jesus Christ be they Catholic, Protestant, LDS(Latter-Day Saint, aka Mormon, aka Restoration Christian), and so on. The point is who actually lives the teachings in the end when we are judged by Jesus Christ, as we are told that God the Father gives all judgement to the Son(Jesus Christ) only, who lived as most accurately as was taught by our Lord and Saviour.

[Dadutta]

@pangeanet But Mormonism condemns Protestantism, Baptism, Methodism and Presbyterianism as "abominations" - not a very Christian do you agree, or ... ?

[pangeanet]

@Dadutta actually that is not true we do not condemn anyone in fact, we acknowledge the great work that other churches do and encourage that goodness. We will mention this regularly from the pulpit and across the globe to members all around the world every six months when we meet together and hear encouraging and inspiring words from our leaders including the apostles and our prophet it is called general conference. Personally, I have always had friends of all faiths and hold them in high esteem

[pangeanet]

First Article of Faith: 1) We believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.

[drjackflash]

Mormons are obviously not Christians. If you do not believe that you are saved by grace alone then you cannot be a Christian. You are not saved by acts which the Mormon Church sells.

[pangeanet]

@drjackflash I must confess that never really understand this idea that somehow our actions didn't matter and that we, by implication at least could live any lifestyle whatsoever but if we say you are 'saved by Jesus' then you are equally with one who has actually lived a good Christ-like life. Want to explain that one to me because it makes no sense whatsoever. Of course, we teach and believe without Jesus Christ no one could return to live with God the Father, repent or be resurrected.

[mindhensley21]

Thank you pangeanet for uploading this. I too am a member and love the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have a strong testimony of it. I love my Heavenly Father, my elder brother Jesus Christ, and the restored Gospel. I won't go into more detail here. It isn't worth losing my peace by getting into a debate w/ people who may never understand.

[pangeanet]

@mindhensley21 You are most welcome! I can tell you also have a love and passion for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. God bless you my friend. I agree we have nothing to prove we know what we believe, we do not need revisionist history just as many are trying to remove God and a belief in Jesus Christ from the founding of this great country, and how they want to redefine us by their own definition and not the truth. For truth lds dot org

[ArmyBuckeye84]

mormons cannot ever be considered christians until they change their definition, and more importantly, their doctrine, of JC, because they revolve around something so radically different.

[pangeanet]

@ArmyBuckeye84 actually according to the New Testament the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only church I know of that follows the original church and definition of who God is. We believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are literally three distinct beings who are one in purpose not in the Nicene Creed voted upon in 325 AD by men.

So I suppose it depends upon whos definition you look at doesn't it?

[pangeanet]

@ArmyBuckeye84 actually you clearly do not know what we teach as we base our entire faith of Jesus Christ of both the Old and New Testaments. We teach of Christ, we follow Christ and we love Him and follow only His gospel. There is none other that we may return again to live with our Heavenly Father.

[kyleesuebear]

Thanks:) this is great.

[yellowcorba1]

I am a Mormon I do believe in Christ So does that mean I am going to hell?

Answer=no

reason Because I believe in christ now tell me where in the bible does it say Mormons are going to hell?

[pangeanet]

@yellowcorba1 good point and where in the Bible does it talk about putting down any of another group and condone it? Christ taught us to love all people unconditionally. Something some so-called Christians seem to have a problem with our justify somehow using a scripture out of context or comparing themselves to Jesus Christ cleansing out the temple or rebuking the Scribes and Pharisees. Last time I check no one may take Christ's place he is unique and only he is the Judge of all mankind.

[yellowcorba1]

@pangeanet Funny thing is the truth is in front of everyone and just over 100 years has the church been restored why are there still all these different religions? And atleast our religion actually has the book of Mormon to back us up talking about the church.

[garrettederer]

@yellowcorba1 says something about though your deeds your not saved. Not saying that to be lazy like ehhh don't have to do anything but if we love God we should want to I think. But you're right Jesus is the way the truth and the light

[llevijr]

Mormons are Christian?

Answer: No.

How can they be Christian if they're going to Hell?

[pangeanet]

Your logic is about as flawed as saying that eating organic foods will kill you because you say so.

Before you make such statements I would recommend actually learning what they believe and considering that their name is the Church of Jesus Christ, they teach of Christ, they practice Christ's teachings and they have given their lives for Jesus Christ would be the first clue that they are indeed true followers of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

[Troul478]

@llevijr Do you believe that you have to be stupid in order to be a true Christian and enter into heaven?

[Rypaul5217]

Listen...Smith's book of Mormon is so untrue, its telling the world that Jesus himself killed and destroyed many thousands of men women and children in some 16 cities, when?...When he died on the cross to save the world from sin...???. [ WOW! ..]

read 3rd Nephi Chap 9. then cross ref it with N.T. St. Luke 9:56. End of story.

[pangeanet]

If you had actually read the Book of Mormon then you'd know that Jesus no more kills people due to natural disasters than he does in any other natural disaster in the history of the world. Just like those who claim God is evil because he is the one that kills someone every time there is a natural disaster.

[THELDSLIFE]

I love Brother Holland! He is a hero for Christ!

I relate to him more than I do with any other Apostle!!! His words testify of Christ.

[frankiacono2007]

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak'" (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7).

[pangeanet]

The "traditional Christ" of most mainstream churches is actually defined by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD and not as described in the Holy Bible, either the Old or New Testaments. We believe in the Jesus Christ of the Old and New Testaments NOT that defined by a council of men at the Council of Nicea or the Nicean Creed so I would absolutely agree with that. We are one of the only churches that actually believe in the Christ of the Holy Bible.

[THELDSLIFE]

@pangeanet

Agreed; we follow the "Living Christ" and not after the manner in which he has been interpreted hundreds of times over. These men, by nature, are special witnesses of Jesus Christ and have heard his voice. Our church clearly looks different from mainstream Christians because instead of drawing our water from the "stream" which has already collected sediment and has become murky, we draw water from the source where it springs forth from; making us "Main Spring" clearwater Christians

[frankiacono2007]

When did the Church of Latter Day Saints deny the foundations of their belief system and become Christians?

[pangeanet]

They have always been based on the teachings of Jesus Christ from the very beginning to the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ until the present. And what makes a Christian "Christian" anyway? It is following the actual teachings of Jesus Christ to the best of ones ability and seeking to love and serve God and their fellow people. The pure love of Christ is charity unfailing and unconditional love among other things which you'd be familiar if you followed the teachings of Christ.

[frankiacono2007]

Thank you for getting back to me with this response.

Question: Do Mormons believe in one God?

[anonazero]

its just too bad nowhere in that video did he say jesus is the one and only God.

[pangeanet]

Well you may be believe as you choose I am not here to prove anything to anyone simply share our beliefs. If you believe in both the Old and New Testaments they both talk about God the Father, God the Son(aka Jehovah, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, Judge, the Word and so forth) and God the Holy Ghost. Three separate and distinct personages of the Godhead who are all singularly ONE in purpose.

[annie1980]

Exactly One in purpose, but not ONE. The LDS Jesus is not the Jesus of the Holy Bible. According to your doctrine a man of the LDS church who has been baptized by a member of the LDS church, which is the only 'proper' way to be baptized because of the God given authority dies........if and only if he was married and had lots of children AND was sealed in temple ceremonies ONLY THEN...will he live for all eternity on the highest level of glory where God the Father lives.

[pangeanet]

If there is one thing I have learned is that there is LOT of misinformation out there and actually your statement is incorrect. There is no requirement that anyone must have any children, or even be married in the temple in this life to enter into heaven as there are many good and worthy members who never marry or have children who I know for a fact will enter heaven yes even where God the Father and Jesus Christ reside.

[annie1980]

I agree that there is alot of misinformation, and I also learned that because LDS rely on SO MANY 'inspired' scriptures it's become simply very difficult to thumb through it all. Not to mention the ever changing 'modern day prophet' revelations that LDS is responsible to know. I think one of the final doctrinal points that convinced me that LDS was not in fact Christian was this, " What man is, God once was. What God is, man can become" Do you agree with this? I only need a yes or no answer.

[pangeanet]

To be fair for such an extremely deep question a yes or no answer doesn't do it justice but if you answer this question I promise to answer to the best of my ability. Annie do you believe that we are all the children of God?

[annie1980]

No. We are all created of God. But as the Bible says. We are not able to even stand in the presence of God without the blood covering of Jesus Christ before us. We are considered children of God after and only after we are spiritual reborn in this world. We are born with a sin nature. Once we have been born again by the Word, we no longer possess that nature but have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. We are no longer our own. We were bought with a price and only then can we worship God in all

[annie1980]

Truth and Light. Everything is head knowledge. Obedience only comes through the Holy Spirit moving inside of us to turn us closer to God and then able to serve Him. From Glory to glory the Bible says, always changing to become more Christ like. As God has said, be holy for I Am holy. Holy means to be set apart or consecrated/chosen and used for God. I am interested as to what you might reply with next :)

[anonazero]

you're sidestepping her question by doing what you're trained to do as a mormon... which is to answer the question you think she should have asked.

there is one God. thats it man. thats all there is to it.

[pangeanet]

I completely agree there is one God. There is only one God we worship and that is God the Father whom we worship through Jesus Christ the Son of God and by the power of the Holy Ghost. Him only should we worship, the very first of the ten commandments brought down from Mount Sinai by the prophet Moses... 1)Thou shall have no other Gods before me.

[pangeanet]

As for sidestepping a question and doing just what I am trained to do as a mormon or as anything else, I must have missed that class and/or memo. I am just answering of my own free will and choice as a human being thank you very much. I am tired of those who obviously just want to get attention by making rude and inflammatory statements. To me it tells me more of their character than anything else. However, it is an important point that there is only one God we worship period.

[alpinegermany]

Just read Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. If you live a wonderful, righteous life, but either marry outside the church or do not marry, you choose to be an angel that serves. Serve who? Those who were married, of course! Oh, and is it just me, or is Christianity the belief in ONE GOD, not multiple? Just a thought.

[pangeanet]

Actually for those who do not marry in this life they will have an opportunity given in the next life if they have lived all of God's commandments and no one will be restricted from attaining salvation we are only restricted by our own choices we make in this life and I would say also in the next. We believe in worshipping only one God.

[frankiacono2007]

Brigham Young Journal of Discourses says there are many gods...7-333

[pangeanet]

Whether there are more than one god or not is speculation and does not change the fact that we are taught to have only one God even God the Father whom we worshiop through the son Jesus the Christ and just as it says in the ten commandments: Thou shalt have no other gods before me ( Exodus 20:3).

[alpinegermany]

REALLY? Then how about Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:16 "Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. "

[pangeanet]

Yes really we only worship one god even God the Father through the son Jesus Christ. Just as it says in the ten commandments to have no other gods before me.

[THELDSLIFE]

@pangeanet

I prefer to be called as "Saints"

for the early Christians were branded so by their Roman captors and it was a "less desirable" nickname for those followers of Christ.

Paul and Peter would call themselves as well as other members of the body of Christ as they were "saints" unto the Most High God.

In this, I'd rather folks called me a "latter-day saint" but within the memberships, I'd prefer to just be called brother Nelson as I am a brother in the Gospel with them...

[anonazero]

@pangeanet except for how mormons believe that God is the son of another God?

[pangeanet]

We believe in God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.

Considering that Jesus Christ is the CORNERSTONE, the namesake and CENTER of our belief system I would have to disagree with you and say that Jesus Christ being central to one's beliefs would make you a Christian. Just as it would with any other being one might follow as the focus of their belief system.

[THELDSLIFE]

@pangeanet

Just that these marriages will have to be performed via proxy; and will be settled during that 1000 years of Christ's reign during the milennium, correct? All work must be done via temples. We'll have 1000 years to get all of this work done.

[annie1980]

Which...btw is not where Jesus will reside. According to LDS scripture Jesus will live forever in eternity on the second level of heaven. The LDS church lifts up man (who have completed their proper check off list to enter Heaven) and dethrones Jesus Christ placing themselves above Jesus and seperate from the Father. So again I say.....NO the LDS Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the Bible.

[pangeanet]

Again I have no idea where you get this stuff but Jesus Christ sit upon the right hand of God the Father in Heaven. There is nothing that teaches man is higher than God the Father or the Son. And yes we base all our teachings upon the Jesus Christ referenced in the Old and New Testament.

[annie1980]

I recieved my information from 3 different LDS sources. I met with two missionary young men for 3 months every Sunday about 6 months ago. I also spoke at length with a ward president about these topics. Are you saying that in eternity, Jesus Christ and God the Father will reside on the SAME LEVEL OF GLORY? Both on the highest level?

[pangeanet]

Absolutely.

[boxing84batman]

Mormons are not Chrristians. At frist they will sound like they are. All you have to do is study a little bit and you will see that there is nothing Christian about the mormon church. They would say yes we are saved by grace, but then they go on to say after all that we can do.

[pangeanet]

All you have to do is study the scriptures to learn that although we all saved by the grace of Jesus Christ that it is not enough to say "Lord Lord" and expect to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Would you expect to simply give lipservice and that is going to give you practical experience of living God's commandments here on earth? As they say talk is cheap and actions speak volumes. Personally, I believe the gospel is a practical and useful gospel in our daily lives that requires action.

[annie1980]

You are right...it is not enough for anyone to say Lord, Lord and give lipservice. Jesus says you must be Born Again to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Corinthians says that once you are Born again you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. The Gospel is practical and it is useful in our daily lives. However the big difference is that your 'required action' is just that...'required' and hinges on your salvation.

[pangeanet]

I agree with your comment and didn't Jesus Christ himself say "if you love me, keep my commandments" - John 14:15

these werent suggestions they were commandments.

[Por0]

If you do not believe that the Son is of the same divine nature (ousia) as the Father and the Holy Spirit, you are not christians, but heretics in the classical sense of the word.

[pangeanet]

I agree with your comment that The Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit are of the same divine nature absolutely!l

[GraceAlone71]

The LDS teachings of the nature of God doesn't line up with the Bible. Don't try to pretend that it does. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all one God. They are not three seperate gods as Mormonism teaches.

[pangeanet]

Actually the teachings and doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is based more completely on the Holy Bible than most churches I know of in fact we are one of the only churches that believes in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament versus the one of the Nicean Creed voted upon in 325AD which is not in the Holy Bible anywhere but written by men to later interpret the definition of what God is. We believe they are separate distinct beings who are singularly ONE in purpose.

[pangeanet]

There are several examples of this throughout the Holy Bible. One of the most graphic depictions is when Jesus submits to babtism by John the Baptist although he was without sin. God the Father speaks behold my beloved son in whom I am well pleased while the Holy Ghost appeared in the form of a dove. All three appeared at oncethere are other examples where God the Father introduced his Son Jesus to prophets. This would not be the case if they were all the same identical being.

[KingKumaForever]

Deut. 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

[pangeanet]

Again that is true as well anyone who attempts to take away or add to God's word which is not from his servants, his prophets, then it is not from God.

However, it does not say anywhere in the Holy Bible that God will never speak to his people through prophets. And of course, as you quoted in Matthew before we must beware false prophets. And so believe that prophet must be called of God as just any other prophet was called throughout both the Old and New Testaments.

[pangeanet]

Again, it is only bad to add to the scriptures if they are not the word of God. How else could scriptures be written?

You claim members of the Church believe in a "different Jesus Christ" to paraphrase and I have to tell you I have heard this before and it is the most riduculous thing I have ever heard. There is only one Jesus Christ, the Jesus Christ of both the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. We believe in his birth, baptism, ministry, atonement, death & literal resurrection.

[KingKumaForever]

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

[pangeanet]

Amen, preaching to the choir we are well aware of this scripture and it is true there have been are and will always be false prophets.

[pangeanet]

If you had actually read the replies given you then you would know that obviously we believe in truth, judgement & the gospel of Jesus Christ. This includes these things.

Have you not been reading the comments? If so then you would know all of this. Frankly if your only intention is to insult, demean, slander, it is a waste of everyone's time & I would ask you to move on for everyone's sake.

All have been more than patient with your comments try showing some respect yourself.

[pangeanet]

curvalecce you state Mormonism is "bankrupt, based on the writings of a man who was proven liar, rapist and theif". This after so many have been willing to explain the theology and actual, beliefs, teachings and doctrine.

It is becoming apparent your actual intentions are simply to slander, insult & demean our beliefs.

There is no concrete evidence to such slander. Your argument makes no sense, instead you are attack reputation by basing your evidence on said alleged facts.

[omiolo]

This is a basic overview of beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Part of the reason why I posted this was to clarify and share what we actually teach and believe with others.

[curvalecce]

Interesting, however, that you aren't mentioning Smith's beliefs on polygamy (Doctrines + Covenants 132), on astronomy (Book of Abraham) or the origin of God (King Follett Discourse). I wonder why?

Could it be that the LDS church is dwindling in numbers and is now relaxing its dislike of mainstream Christianity? Could Smith's prophecies be unravelling?

I'd LOVE to read your defence of D + C 132 in the context of modern LDS theology!

[omiolo]

"Could it be that the LDS church is dwindling in numbers"

actually the LDS church is increasing like NEVER before. The activity rate is incredibly high. The Phoenix area alone can't build chapels fast enough.

[curvalecce]

Just remember to keep the INFORMED Christians out!

After all, didn't Smith say, in 'Pearl of Great Price' History Chap 1, verse 19, that 'all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof"'.

[omiolo]

"that 'all their creeds were an abomination in his sight;"

if you believe that every EXTRAbiblical is not needed then why wouldn't you agree with this?

[pangeanet]

Actually the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not teach this as you state. If you had read the comments I had already responded to a previous question about Godhood. We also do not believe in Pantheism.

[curvalecce]

My apologies, and I retract ALL my accusations that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is pantheistic.

Sorry.

[omiolo]

The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done (History of the Church, 4:540).

[omiolo]

oseph Smith knew that no enemy then present or in the future would have sufficient power to frustrate or stop the purposes of God. We are all familiar with his prophetic words:

[omiolo]

Even Josephs closest associates in those early years did not fully understand the trials that the Latter-day Saints would endure as the Church rolled forth from its small beginnings in the early 1800

[omiolo]

Many people, including Latter-day Saints, forget that Joseph Smith was very much aware that the Church would eventually be relocated to the great American West. In August of 1842 he prophesied that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains, many .., and some [would] live to . . . build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains

[omiolo]

pantheism--> the doctrine or belief that God is the universe and its phenomena (taken or conceived of as a whole) or the doctrine that regards the universe as a manifestation of God

[AequitasVeritas7777]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has never taught, preached or believed in this doctrine. Where this individual is getting this is news to me.

[omiolo]

"Where this individual is getting this is news to me. "

I am sure he read it on the internet somewhere.....

[curvalecce]

Okay, the relevant term is POLYTHEISM

Hear, O Israel: YHVH is our Elohim, YHVH is one

Deuteronomy 6:4

[omiolo]

"Okay, the relevant term is POLYTHEISM"

I am not even sure you know what it means. Please define it!

[curvalecce]

Polytheism as a noun is derived from Greek πολυ many + θεος god; its use dates from about 1613. The noun means belief in or worship of more than one god.

Isaiah 43:10-11: "You are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

[curvalecce]

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Psalm 96:5: "For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens."

I maintain the Truth of Scripture - Christians believe in the One true God proclaimed in the verses above. Single in being, Three in person.

LDS theology proclaims Adonai Elohim was once a man, and is therefore not Christian.

[curvalecce]

On the subject of the Trinity doctrine, it is obviously central to the NT, John 1:1, 8:56-57, Php 2:6-10, Col 2:9-10, to name only a few verses. The TERM Trinity dates from about 180 and was used by Theophilus of Antioch. Tertullian (died c. 220) and Gregory Thaumaturgus (died c. 270) also both used the term and clearly accepted the Trinity doctrine LONG before the First Council of Nicaea (325).

LDS theology, on the other hand, asks us to believe God delayed His revelation until 1830.

[curvalecce]

And may I at this point apologise if any of my comments have seemed personally insulting. This subject is close to my heart, but that does not justify deliberate rudeness.

Hving said that, I retract none of my statements regarding Smith, whose pantheist theology is not in any way Christian.

[pangeanet]

Pantheism = The doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations: it involves a denial of God's personality and expresses a tendency to identify God and nature.

[curvalecce]

Let me then, with the greatest respect for your kind offer, ask WHY Mormons hide the core of their beliefs?

For example, I am proud to proclaim the Trinity, that Jehovah Elohim (Three in One) is the only God of all of our or any reality, that Jesus (God the Son) ascended to Heaven from the company of Peter and the other Apostles, and that Jesus returned to His Father's side, not to descend until the End. Satan is a fallen angel, and was created by Jesus Himself before the world began.

[AequitasVeritas7777]

Actually the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actually tried to share their beliefs on every level...yet another example is this post on YouTube to share our actual and yes very core beliefs.

We believe as I have stated before in God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost. I know of no reference where "Satan...was created by Jesus Himself" could you tell me your source I am sincerely curious?

[curvalecce]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:1,3

This scripture makes it clear that Jesus, the Word, was the active figure of the Trinity in creation. Psalm 148:2-5 makes it clear Jesus created the angels, and satan's angelic nature is shown is in Job 1:6 and Isaiah 14:12-16.

[curvalecce]

On a personal note, I'd like to thank the poster of this video for not restricting comments. Truth defends itself.

My language may seem unguarded, but it is sincere.

[omiolo]

Consider this example. There may be things in our character, in our behavior, or concerning our spiritual growth about which we need to counsel with Heavenly Father in morning prayer. After expressing appropriate thanks for blessings received, we plead for understanding, direction, and help to do the things we cannot do in our own strength alone.

[curvalecce]

Amen! I'm so glad to be able to agree completely with you!

[curvalecce]

Mormonism is a non-Christian cult begun in 1830 by Joseph Smith. The Mormon church, also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, denies the historic Trinity and efficacious atonement. Some of its unique doctrines are that God used to be a man on another world who became a God and came to this world with one of his wives. We all are literally born in heaven as spirit brothers and sisters and then inhabit human bodies on earth.

[pangeanet]

Actually you are incorrect on several key points; the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is one of the only churches that actually teaches of the same Jesus Christ of the New Testament, as many other churches base their beliefs in the definition of God from the Council of Nicea; which was comprised of men in 325 AD.

We believe in God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost ... that the Birth, Baptism, Ministry, ATONEMENT, Death, Resurrection are ALL ESSENTIAL to our doctrine and beliefs!

[curvalecce]

Ah, the First Council of Nicaea! It doesn't matter that it was called to debate Arianism and the date of Easter. Nor is it important that both sides in the debate believed God the Father (Adonai Elohim) is our only and eternal Lord, or that Trinitarianism was already established.

And it matters not that the Creed of the Nicene Council was overthrown by subsequent, larger Councils, only to be finally affirmed when Arianism collapsed under its own contradictions.

None of this matters at all.

[curvalecce]

But I wonder why you baulk at the discussing the central point, that God used to be a man on another world who became a God and came to this world with one of his wives? Where in the BIBLE does God say this?

And, more relevantly to the video, why don't Mormons talk more openly about this issue?

Again, I DON'T hate Mormons, really, but I would like to learn why the LDS camp avoid discussing this concept.

[AequitasVeritas7777]

Who "balked" as you put it? Again with the insults claiming and judging others as "mockers of Christ" that is a low blow when all I have done is sincerely answer your questions respectfully.

[AequitasVeritas7777]

We also worship God the Father. I really am not following your argument.

[curvalecce]

Yes, but do you worship the Father as the ONLY God:

Before me no god was formed,

nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 43:10

That's the dividing line. God the Trinity is the one and only true God, and the false gods cannot have preceded Him, and are all under His judgement in the End Times. This is the biblical testimony.

[omiolo]

"Before me no god was formed,

nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 43:10"

read verse 11, it clarifies and specifies verse 10.

[omiolo]

Romans 6:5

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: "

[curvalecce]

The sight of this man spouting the partly-digested lies of the rapist, liar and thief Smith is quite nauseating. Mr Holland is NOT a Christian, for Jesus IS the living God, has eternally been God (John 1:1, Phil 2:5-6; Heb 1:10), and became flesh for us. Jesus ascended to heaven (Acts 1:8-9)and He now sits at the Right Hand of the Father (Acts 7:56). Jesus is spirit, and is not limited to time and space, both of which He himself created (2 Chron. 6:18; Jer. 23:24; John 4:24).

[pangeanet]

You obviously do not know him or the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints if all you can do is name-call & insult two who have given their lives to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Sure, Bible verses preaching to the choir, I love them. The church teaches that yes Jesus is the living God, become flesh, was baptized, ministered, Atoned, died, was Resurrected on the 3rd day, showed himself to his apostles afterwards in a resurrected body & ate fish & honeycomb with them.

[curvalecce]

I don't hate Hindus, Mormons or any other pantheists. The sight of a mocker of Christ claiming to be a Christian, however, I cannot let pass. If the follower of Mr Smith ADMIT that Mormon theology insists Adonai Elohim is merely the god of this universe, and that the Almighty is merely a human male elevated through faith in Smith's theology to godhood, THEN I'll be impressed. Why, I ask myself, do Mormon apologists feel the need to hide these central concepts? Are they ashamed of Smith?

[omiolo]

"The sight of this man spouting the partly-digested lies of the rapist, liar and thief Smith is quite nauseating"

thanks for verbally stoning a Prophet of God.

The more things change, the more things stay the same!

[omiolo]

"Jesus is spirit"

but he is ALSO body, a resurrected body. Or don't they teach you about the resurrection in your Mormon hating class?

Acts 4:33

"And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. "

[curvalecce]

I repeat: I really DON'T hate Mormons. Frankly, using Smith's 'I'm right and if you prove otherwise that's because you hate me' whine is pathetically circular.

The relevance of Acts 4:33 to defending Mormonism is beyond me.

How about explaining the fact that Deu 4:35 clearly shows the terms Adonai and Elohim are referring to the SAME God the Father?

I don't understand why Mormons don't just come out of the closet on their pantheism.

What are you afraid of? What have you got to hide?

[omiolo]

"I really DON'T hate Mormons"

what it is just a pseudo hate? Not as bad as the Palestinians hate the Jews?

[omiolo]

"The relevance of Acts 4:33 to defending Mormonism is beyond me."

I am sure it is!!

[curvalecce]

Being Palestinian does not automatically make one a hater of Jews. You're resorting to a rather circular method of avoiding explaining yourself. I could go for a cheap shot here and write that you already KNOW your argument wouldn't stand up to enquiry, but that's beneath me.

I note you STILL haven't responded to my question about the underlying pantheism in Mormon theology. Afraid of revealing the truth?

[omiolo]

"of revealing the truth? "

yeah, that is exactly the fear Mormons have as they go out of their way and at great sacrifice to publish more online then ALL religions put together!

[omiolo]

"You're resorting to a rather circular method of avoiding explaining yourself."

I would explain myself but you have this method of making generalizations and trying to attach labels without the connectors and then waiting for a response and attacking the specifics of that so that you don't have to apply specifics yourself.

[archaeologyprof]

Here we have presented the most basic belief of the Latter-day Saints. If anyone desires to know what the LDS people believe, it begins with this.

[curvalecce]

I do want to know the LDS position, but this video is not presenting it fairly. Why no reference to all Mormon males eventually becoming Gods and Jesuses in their own universes?

[swingman24]

You tell this story in the description about how you met a man that told you that mormons are going to hell/ Then, you went on to ask him a question about people never having heard of Jesus Christ, which is basically a rabbit hole you wanted him to go down so you avoid his statement about hell. I have seen and heard such things many times...from atheists. By the way, the gentleman was right; anyone who does not believe what the bible teaches about Jesus will spend eternity in hell.

[pangeanet]

You allude I was trying to trap him that was not my intention I was simply asking what he believed about others going to hell because he was already judging himself that I was going so it was a legitimate question. I thought it interesting that he stated that even though I do believe, practice teach and live by the teachings of Jesus Christ of the New Testament that I would go to hell but anyone know not Christ would go to heaven.

We believe it by Jesus Christ only can we enter heaven.

[swingman24]

Ok, perhaps what I said sounded a bit harsh in this format. It was not intended to be. I was simply trying to get to a point, which is mormons also follow a another book, doctrine, and teacher. The Book of Mormon by your founder Joseph Smith. He was a false teacher. Is it not true that you are taught that you can become a god? Christians can disagree on non-essential issues but there are some that must be believed and followed to call yourself a christian.

[pangeanet]

You mean like following the teachings of Jesus Christ? That is the core of all of our beliefs, our "founder", Saviour, Judge, Mediator, Savior and Lord is Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was a prophet just like any other Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Noah and so on.

Frankly I've never had a Sunday school lesson on "How to become a God". We do believe the Holy Bible literally that all of us are spirit children of God. What do children have the "potential" to become? I emphasize potential.

[swingman24]

I do not doubt that you believe what you are saying, but... mormonism does teach the doctrine that you can become a god. Just because you have never been taught that or you choose not to believe it is a separate matter. Yes, Joseph Smith is the founder of the mormons and he is not a prophet. He most certainly was not a prophet of the Most High God. He was not in his right mind, a liar, or was influenced and/or controlled by demons

[pangeanet]

I said there is "potential" but we don't sit around talking about it, people can barely follow the 10 commandments. Anyone can say the same thing about any prophet, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah and so on in fact they also faced persecution. Even Jesus Christ himself said "a prophet hath no honor in his own country" was he not in his right mind, a liar, or influenced by demons?

Some thought so and they put him to death for his "radical" claims even wrongly charged & accused him of treason.

[rtiffanytaylor]

We testify of the Savior Jesus Christ is the son of God and this is his gospel. May we live his teachings and follow his commandments

[osmiolos]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[AequitasVeritas7777]

This is great thanks for posting something that actually tells the most basic simple and pure belief of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[AequitasVeritas7777]

By the way the Christus statue has got to be the most beautiful image I have ever seen of Jesus Christ in any church, although I also enjoy some of the classic paintings and stained glass images of him. I love Jesus Christ and thank you for posting this!

[curvalecce]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Exodus 20:4

[AequitasVeritas7777]

Why post Exodus 20:4? What relevance does this verse have I do not see what exactly you were responding to or what it is in reference to?

[curvalecce]

Please excuse my ignorant rudeness.

It worries me that beautiful statues can sometimes obscure the Truth being proclaimed, and my knee-jerk reaction occurred... sorry.