The religion is full of shit, money is printed on toilet paper, fame is worthless, the important thing at this moment is your humaness and the only thing making war on your humaness is your culture. Class boundries language boundries gender boundries
Terrence Mckenna was on another plane - truly a god, and in my mind is far more interesting every bit as if not more intelligent... and entertaining but lets be honest they are completely different and its silly to compare
@pplasqui Five star motels are gaudy and a symptom of the imbalances of our world. A tent is a tent in which you have your own experience in and with nature. I'd rather go camping in a tent than spend my time in some hotel, regardless of all the amenities of the hotel.
Ken Wilber is phenomenal and helps individuals understand and take the necessary steps to progressing as human being (practical and needed). Terence McKenna is speaking of the entirety of existence, on multiple evels of awareness, both scientific and shamanic. His vocabulary and wisdom is beyond most well-educated people. His breadth and experience have given him incomprehensible insight that melts time. To compare them is unrealistic. Both are geniuses, but McKenna is a jaw-dropper.
Just curious about the superliminal high frequency ramp you had going on in the background? not sure if anyone else picked it up. is that a ken wilber thing?
I think Terrence would still be giving his rants on the benefits of dmt/psilocybin to the entities/sentient beings in the next realm. Terrence dared to go where even the bravest of psychonaugts feared to tread. I miss you Terrence!!! you were a great man, a shinning light, and a courageous crusader.
So, Ken Wilber might say that McKenna should be more integral! (geez, isn't that a scary thought). Terence's worldview is therefore valid, but partial.
I really wish I could know what an integrally/Wilber informed Terence McKenna would have made of it all. For a discussion of an integral approach to psychedelic use, search google because Ken Wilber has a good talk about it on a site called DIY Dharma.
My answer to the question is, yes, enculturation does both
When Terence McKenna said 'culture is not your friend', I believe he was directing that at all human beings. It wasn't just a metaphorical criticism of cultures that value excessive materialism and patriarchy, it was more broadly aimed at the 'automatic, unquestioned and unthinking behaviour' (McKenna) of humans as a result of enculturation.
Also, Terence McKenna identified as a rationalist and had a perspective on god as being a planetary 'Gaian mind'.
@photent Have you read Michael Hoffman's theory on Ego Death? He explicates it thoroughly at his website egodeath.com. It concerns fatalism and psychedelics. Terence McKenna argued against that, an example could be found here at YouTube in Terence's lecture titled "Appreciating Imagination". Look for part 7/41 and fast-forward 5:16 to hear his argument against predestination or what's more commonly called "hard determinism."
2)ambos autores vieron y sintieron la VERDAD en carne, y creo q esos pensamiento mas q contraponerse deberian fundirse en mentes q hayan llegado a ese nivel y no debatir las idioteces de imbeciles new-age, de cortos, de inexperimentados y de intelectuales simplistas
The difference is that Mckenna was more postmodern- angry at society and what not whereas Wilber is actually looking very deeply and without judgment at the different levels of consciousness in the world and how they interact with each other and how that interaction shapes the world society. Wilber rises above anger in his assessment of the here and now and because of that he is able to see just how incredible EVERY aspect of existence is. All duality is a manifestation of the Nondual.
@shadowmongoose I don't think McKenna was angry at society, per se. He was angry at what we're becoming by manipulation of the few into this kind of multi-headed hydra that seems out to destroy everything in it's path including it's own den. Our conciousness is evolving very quickly now. You have, basically, two camps. One side welcomes the evolution and one side resists it in favor of materialism, self-centeredness and ego.
Wilber is not authoritarian and I wouldn't say that he is for "following the prescribed rules" exactly either. He does say that the spiritual traditions are useful tools.
It doesn't take as much discipline as you'd think to meditate every day. Once you get past the beginning stages then you generally want to keep going because it is so utterly amazing and life changing.
mckennas philosophy is the quick jolt, or shock, to the psychic and mental faculties, a sort of lighting rod for new ideas and perceptions about the world, which indeed is very powerful. wilbers philosophy is slow discovery, carefully meditating, mapping out mental and spiritual territories, cultivating a gradual connection with higher or deeper spaces.
so the question is do you want to learn a practice in wilbers case, or do you want to download files, in mckennas case?
So If you want to do drugs (experience new states downloading) and have an amazing experience read either one. if you want more than that read them both and learn from them both. But dont stop there. or stop there, either way if youve been awakened (then theres nothing to do. other than just hold on or let go. it doesnt matter)[paraphrased from a brief history of everything]
@sexdeathlovefear So If you want to do drugs (experience new states "download") and have an amazing experience read either one. if you want more than that read them both and learn from them both. But dont stop there. or stop there either way if youve been awakened (theres nothing to do. other than just hold on or let go. it doesnt matter)
I'm not sure I know what you mean there - but I'll try to clarify what I was saying in my previous comments and relate it to your comment. Yellow/vision-logic might indeed see archetypes as Kosmic patterns of harmonious energy and intelligence, or something like that - whereas purple sees them as mythical 'spirits', in a more superstitious kind of way. I do believe spirits are real in one way or another - and I often resonate with them through both the purple and yellow memes - both pre & trans
Whether he was or was not incorrect, meditation is not for everyone, especially the mentally disabled. Many psychedelics are excellent medicines and probes for vaguely researched mental conditions. Yes, it seems he had a bias, but it was perhaps more because of the quick benefits he was used to receiving from the drugs. Mckenna did use meditation, but always in the presence of plant-based hallucinogens. Meditation often plays out in many aspects of daily life without us knowing.
Vision logic is the kind of integrative mind that reflects the yellow meme, worldcentric development (or higher), the integration of mind of body, and the dynamic interaction of both the left and right brain hemishpheres. It sees the patterns of Kosmic Connection, whereas previous levels would have used logic in an abstract, linear way that is not as much an accurate reflection of the Kosmos.
you've got me all figured out, this comin from a man looking for answers on the internet. keep using labels to keep your mind in that prison it is never escaping. we can see eachother is this or that, but clearly you have not woken to anything if you continue to treat your fellow man with such disrespect. i was gonna leave you in sympathy with your imprisoned mind to fend for itself with answers from randoms on internet channels. were all the same
I said Mckenna considered it to be obsolete. He really considers meditation as part of the fundamental state of thought one can begin with to achieve enlightenment, but that psychedelics were much more efficient towards that goal. He also believed meditation could be used as an additive or method of thought for tripping on psychedelic substances. He was NOT dense.
that's quite true - though i see a lot of purple surfacing in the New Age, often in the guise of second-tier (a pre-trans fallacy of magic posing as vision logic). It is wierd that Science ignores Astrology. One only needs to look at the stats for crime on full moon nights to know that these huge cosmic bodies do after all have a huge effect. If our bodies are bodies of water with magnetic particles in it (one way of looking at it), then how could these huge magnetic bodies NOT have an effect!
Could be. I used to be the same way - thinking drugs were the mother-lode!! In the long run they brought me nothing but trouble (some of it quite brutal and demonic). Drugs will give you a flash, but you fall right back within minutes or days to where you began, or lower. It's really quite an immature approach to growth, and at best it will give poor results, and at worst it could bring nightmares (my own 'nightmares' being addiction, psychosis, schizophrenia, and physica/subtle body damage)
look up luciferianism its connections with masonry and the establishment of the British Corporation known as The United States of America. the ancient symbolism used on the dollar bill and each national currency on the planet. skull n bones. this is why we have a queen. we think its a joke, where does the divine right to rule come from? because of your blood, this is why we have a red carpet. represents bloodline.. wake up realize what u are, then you can talk about subjectivity
Thats a good metaphor. It's worth remembering that Shamans still have an element of turqoise (or at least teal) insight, while their culture is grounded in rather primitive purple. People could have an orange rational centre of gravity, which is more sophisticated and evolved, but they still may not have this access to the transcendent that the Shamans had. I work with a Shaman that is well integrated into the modern world, and his work goes much deeper than modern psychological approaches.
If there must be a 'vs', then I prefer Ken's work, though I still like Terence. The long-term, multidinmensional, integrated approach that Ken embodies is much more transformative. Terence's approach involves temporarily contacting higher realms. This rarely results in any lasting transformation, and the insight is often translated downward into the terms of the lower centre-of-gravity of the person's psychology. I have tried both approaches, and I must say that Integral Life Practice kicks ass!
Redlite you are a shining star in my universe. I adore McKenna. He authentically reports his own experiences and responds to his sense perceptions with creativity and kindness. I cannot stand Wilbur, who seems to have no human qualities, no humility or wonder. Disembodied, he idolizes the mind. As an apologist for the religion of brains, he worships his own most of all. One must admit that lots of nice people go along with it. Guess I'm just jealous.
You haven't really investigated Ken's work thoroughly if these are your conclusions. His approach reaches from the lowest rungs of body right up to the ultimate ground of Spirit, including everything in between. I wonder how much of your own shadow you're projecting onto Ken?
Kevin is an interdimensional portal of being/s of light, a deceitful lier who wants to condemned people just like he already is...his body, mind & senses are just a tool for the ascended masters or interdimensional negative beings in a disguise of pure light beings, its your decition to fall or not fall on his trapt.
Perhaps the method one uses to achieve enlightenment and truth is not nearly as relevant as to the choice one must make as to pursue it or not ... suggesting perhaps the general lack of interest in society as to what truth is is where a more serious problem exists ...
That's a good point. If we're debating who'se methods are better, then I definitely go with Ken's . But how does one get a culture of narcissism and materialistic greed to look with in and become interested in difficult work and ego-death? I don't have any decent answers. Even when one IS interested, it is still bloody hard work sometimes!!
I don't much about McKenna - though I've used psychadelics many times in the past - but I do know that Wilber is not just a 'rationalist'. I would called him a jnana yogi, though. He uses the intellect as a tool to understand what is deemed knowledge and intellect, and does it in a very humorous way, if you read his books. In order to present concepts regarding the highest levels of awareness in the world's spiritual traditions, it has to use logic to get these ideas across. But even he makes
.it clear that reason and language cannot explain certain levels of truth, and he gives the example of the Madhyamika mystic Nagarjuna and the nature of nondual awareness in his first book, Spectrum of Consciousness. Truth at the level he speaks cannot be grasped through words, because it is an intuitive flash that occurs, which is a seeing the whole at once, which is outside the scope of reason. I would suggest reading his first book, because intuition does play a big part in 'his' philosophy.
drugs dont enlighten,they manipulate brain chemistry in an artifical way. you take a plant etc and your chemisry is changed. meditaion isnt based on fantasies, you look at whats there.
yes... not to mention: have a thought, a feeling, a motor response, and your chemistry is changed. either there is only nature, or there is only artiface. Otherwise you're imposing a substance dualism onto a process which cannot be divided. What 'is' there? By changing your instrument of observation (ie, altering brain chemistry/bodily comportment), you change the way the thing observed arises. There is no separation between subject and object; your consciousness is also chemical.
there is much evidence to support that "pre-civilization" human groups obtained psychedelics through their diets. these experiences fueled evolution in the social and spiritual realms.the earliest vedas praise soma as a way to reach the gods. sadus have been consuming charas for millenia. in what way is consuming natural plant matter artificial? the idea is that when consuming these plants, they tune your consciousness with that of the higher intelligence that permeates all of existence
bogus. wilbur doesnt specify rules. you cant just live without restraint in yourself yuo will self destruct yuorself and others. rules of society are not opression they are to decrease suffering. low level persons dont CARE about what they do to others so they need rules from "others" so we can survive.like defending children who cant defend themselves.
Although, one clearly accepts meditation and the other considers it to be obsolete, do you think Mckenna and Watts are very much alike? I love them both and find dramatic similar qualities between both of their philosophies. Watts however, is personally a much better orator than Mckenna.
I don't think meditation is obsolete. A slow, gradual practice results in development, much like the rings forming in the trunk of a tree. Temporary 'mind-blowing' insights on drugs are great, but you fall right back down to where you were before you took them... I realised that once when I was coming down off LSD, and I became excited and dedicated about the years of inner work I would have to do to get back to a place that the acid brought me to in minutes.
Well, I dont think its a contest. But They BOTH have a huge hand in humanity. Just imagine this world. If there was more Mckenna. Or more Ken Wilbers.
Wilber is quite aware that his essence is GOD, much in the same way that McKenna does. The fact that you don't even spell his name right shows how little you know about his work.
I absolutely agree with you. I have followed Wilber from Boomeritis into AQAL (whew). Extraordinarily rational, which appealed to me coming from a base orange vmeme. But though they approach the perceived coming of the shift in cultural awareness differently, I believe they are perceiving the same "place".
Language is code and that code was created, from the beginning, with mind controlling phonetic memes and relational characteristics that propagate consumerism and constant disatisfaction. This is mental illness. Until the code is broken, our thoughts are not free or true. We, each, are not driving our own vehicle, but are controlled by unseen forces guided by those who have learned to program in a more rudimentary language.
I don't think the origins are that sinister. Language evolved long before capitalism or fascism!! lol.. I think it evolved because it has a function. Being STUCK in language is obviously a problem - because one will mistake one's concepts for their Real reference points. But language can be transcended and included so one is not stuck in it, and it is used with some degree of consciousness and freedom
Quadrants are here to stay. Postwilberian integral views posit mathematical, dynamic integrations between all quadrants. Ken Wilber's model is vision-logic based, but further levels utilize transpersonal stages not merely transpersonal states of consciousness (and culture). There is no point deconstructing the quadrants.
there's nothing to deconstruct. all the quadrants are simply a perspective on THIS. you can also say its a more complete perspective. ....and THIS is all there is.
Yes the 4 quadrants are a more complete and whole perspective than quadrant absolutism. The next stage would go further in integration, starting to transcend visionlogic, which is the last way of thought of the linear stage of cognition. Then come the circular translations of information-energy, of which the comprehension is still emerging, Gross is linear. Subtle is circular, Causal is point-like. Nondual is radial and completely integrated. I'm talking about stages, not about states now.
I don't NEED quadrants. If you mean by 'uptight' that we're a bit more mature, dedicated and grounded in practice rather than temporary WOWEE moments that one quickly loses, then sure - we are uptight as hell!! lol. I enjoyed your beard comment all the same ;)
what you were trying to say can be summarized like this: Wilber is a left-brainer (rational), while Mckenna has a more right-brain way of thinking (intuition)
Authorities throughout thousand of years have been trying to suppress knowledge, specifically, the knowledge about psychedelics and entheogens and how they can improve the mind and allow oneself to directly experience consciousness as one and not separated in dualities, thus, helping us evolve and continue the process that begun millions of years ago.
Takes memes, and chop them up with a dash of archetypes, and season with psychedelic mushrooms - stir fry it together, add salt and pepper to taste - and then read Paco Nathan Xander's "Corporate Metabolism" - and then serve it all on a bed of steamed rice with hot peppers, a twist of Information theory, a touch of Game theory and Systems theory all on the side and Vola! A buffet of food for thought!
The essential difference betwixt McKenna and Wilber is that the proof McKenna speaks about can be directly experienced. Mushrooms can be eaten, and thereby directly known, personally - beyond mere theories or conjecture. Direct Gnostic experience of hyperdimensionality and many worlds thereby. In that sense Wilber's work is a good adjunct to McKenna's, but McKenna trumps Wilber in that the Mushrooms are their own proof. The Mushroom speaks for Itself to anyone willing to synch with it.
We do have to be careful about our own egos here. Wilber has repeatedly hammered home the fact that his map of the Kosmos is constantly subject to change. We must continue to validate his observations no doubt. Let's not so easily forget that the man is human even considering his almost superhuman contribution to the fields of philosophy, science, and spirituality.
You are quite right to question K.W's model. In my view 'spirit' is vastly more
intelligent than any human or human race.
What's more it is' free' and does not impose structures of any kind. Structures and formulas are created by human minds not by the sustaining consciousness(awareness). Please look up "John Wheeler" if you need to understand this deeply. Thank you. Alan Chaplin
Each person needs to take serious responsibility for their state, their actual mental, psychic, emotional state. We walk around each day in a self-deluded dream of our own mind-forms, super-imposing our 'picture' of things onto reality. We are in the dark to what is Real, there can be no real and lasting change for humanity until each persons 'business' is handled on the most intimate and personal level of their consciousness. There is so much of the blind leading the blind out there.
The world is a collective psychic apparition not to be trusted - also known as Maya. Human culture was originally developed based on a collective effort to produce food and shelter for its members, it is still only that, but has become corrupted by the collective egoity of its appointed leaders. When each individual takes responsibility for their ego in a process of self-transcendence via meditative practice the big picture will change and these seemingly insurmountable problems will rebalance.
What is your point? I think you're fishing for your ego. If you know anything about anything you would know that it's not about Terrence McKenna or Ken Wilber. In the time you took to stroke your own ego you could've spread a much more comprehensive summary of McKenna and Wilber's message. It's not about McKenna or Wilber, it's about the knowledge they were offering us. I think you should leave the lectures to McKenna.
McKenna is right as far as what is REALLY happening if you understand 2012, the planetary crisis, and the Other. The transcendental object IS here, let the mind games begin. Once you play such games McKenna will make a lot more sense.
both are intellectuals, but terrence i don't think rapped around people intentionally, it was a phase for him i'd think, i'm not sure. whereas ken wilber seems to develop somekind of private group crowd around him, i would certainly not want to use the word Cult, but there it is, Lol.
Actually I think Mckenna basically rejects culture in general, not just our modern culture. The reason he gives is that most cultures deal with people on a large scale, and can't help but assume that they're all the same, and that's wrong. One of his catch phases is "trust yourself with the raw data."
If McKenna and Wilber are both talking about the same general idea, but from different syles, does it almost seem to add more dimensions to Wilber's Quadrants? If both are speaking of integration, future of human development/evolution, etc, then both must already include eachother in their mix. Yet they are opposing. So what then.. a possible 2 versions of the 4Q's existing in another 4Q's? or more?
(sorry if thats incoherent, kinda thought it out while i typed it out. plus it's late...)
creative wild avenues of thought and conversation. the original question is basically "growth to goodness" vs "return to eden" are we golden and society stamps it out of us or are we rotten and society grows us more compassionate? wilber answers both. people need to be socialised to fit into a group with ethics and takin perspectives, and in that process a lot of individuality and natural impulse is repressed and suppressed and needs to be reclaimed. mckenna was 'return to eden'-model follower
a very poor argument and grasp of these two thinkers in my opinion.
to say wilber is a mere rationalist is such a take away of so much of his work. he is constantly using conscious reasoning in very intelligent clear and precise ways to get a big comprehensive view of everything, and also constantly showing that that same process is insufficient and misses the point of real spirituality. mckenna was more of a verbal artist, a bard, than a serious philosopher, he played with ideas and opened
Mckenna dealt with primitive cultures extensively. 'The Archaic Revival' talks about the revolving cycles within our collective experience repeating itself since the beginning of our species, and 'Food of the Gods' portrays his theory about the role of psychedelics in the evolution of humanity. So while the 2 may differ on their points of view they did both write about these things.
not trying to correct just thought u might wanna check em out
To finish my comment: It includes and transcends rationality, and there are larger bigger holons of consicousness that these two holons are nested in.
Transrational states & stages of consciousness have been observed,lived, and described quite clearly in many Eastern religions as early as 600 BCE (Buddhism, Vedanta), so it's definitely not too soon to desrcibe trans-rational stages and states of consciousness. Wilber is NOT a rationalist. He is an Integralist, who inlcudes rationality and intuition and more. Intution is the "psychic" or "body/mind+" or "meta-neo-organic/somatic" or "centauric" or early second-tier stage in Wilber's model.
Quantum physics is a product of Newtonian physics but the end product revolutionized our understanding of the underpinnings of the universe. Rationality and the whole world ARE duality bound as is the whole material world. Witness the whole array of opposites. Day/Night, Hot/Cold etc. The human nervous system is even dualistic, Sympathetic/Parasympathetic. At the cosmic subjective level the only criteria for reality is what the INDIVIDUAL experiences and it's very often irrational and illogical
Excellent exploration of two really powerful roads. In shamanism sometimes called the left hand and the right hand paths. Culture is invariably a dead end for the individual. Rational thought is an obvious impediment to unity consciousness. As is experiential visionary exploration a challenge to integration. All developmental stages........ yet probably necessary.
Those are massive questions. I would say culture is anything that is an artifact of neocortex behavior, like tools, man made objects. The accumulation of culture tends to make the objective world seem all too real. As an example, you "must" have a job to pay the mortgage.
Rational thought is an impediment because, again it tends to make the observable world seem like the only "reality". You tend to think that you are your own profound thoughts. "I think therefore, I am. " and that's all....
Ah, okay. I understand the culture part better now, but I don't understand the rational thought part. Isn't the very definition of reality that which is logically consistent and empirically verifiable? I do not see how rationality would be an impediment to discovering reality.
Logic and reason are valuable at the objective level of reality. However every level is a transition to a more inclusive level. At the quantum level of the universe, reality unfolds "with the logic of a dream" observing something changes it. Observer and observed become unified in ways that the duality bound mind cannot comprehend. At this level dream figures are as real as flesh and blood figures or you could say are more primary, more archetypal. Effects can take place before causes.
Yes, but quantum physics is very much a product of rational thinking, so your point doesn't really hold. Rational thinking is not "duality bound." "Duality bound" is a perspective, or perhaps a philosophical stance, but it does not define rational thinking. My point is that there must be criteria for truth/reality, and rational thinking is imperative to it as has so far been demonstrated.
Rationally know one knows were the source of electricity comes from. Keep asking the question, and were does that come from ? Ultmately know one knows.
You might want to rethink the idea of culutre. I don't think Terrence and you are looking at it the same way. I think he means culture as in anything available for consumption, including fine arts, books, etc. He does tend to speak generally.
Very cool man, I'd review the part where you say that Wilber is a rationalist. Rationalists are usually people on a world centric approach, which is based on science, Wilber includes science in his model, but there is also the inclusion of eastern traditions which explain the world in a more organic view. That is why he emphasizes meditation techniques so much, since with meditation you get realizations that are just impossible to understand through our dualistic rational mind.
hmmm. I tend to hear this a lot, but I can't say that I've ever heard any promoters of meditation (including wilber) describe any results or realizations from meditation that I (and others I know) have not been able to achieve simply through rational thought. Meditation, as I have experienced myself, has only served to remind or reinvigorate realizations previously arrived at. I think people often first arrive to such realizations via meditation and then mistakenly consider it to be the only way
I partly agree, basically there's no way to fully "understand" the world trough rational thought, as proven by the incompleteness theorem and the uncertainty principle.I could rationally explain how everything is connected, but there is a difference between "knowing" about these connections and "experiencing" them. I could "know" the sea by reading books, but it's never like going for a swim. Logic is like looking at a picture of the sea, meditation is swimming. I believe both are useful though
Sure, I suppose. But I think thought can lead to that "experience" just as well as meditation can. I think meditation works, because it is, in principle, a discarding of our symbols, representations, or categories, which eventually begins to erode the boundaries we perceive in the universe, including that between the self and everything else. Thus, through meditation, one "experiences" the connection. Nonetheless, I actually think that people do the same thing with thought...
...it kind of works like this. Thought has the remarkable ability to reflect upon itself and absorb the very categories it creates into a kind of infinite looping or regressive compartmentalization, which ultimately results in the "experience" of "no boundaries" or "everything is connected."
I believe thats a beautiful description of what meditation actually does, it ultimately exhausts the mind. After a while we "realize" that the mind is just looping infinitely and that there's just "nothing to understand" because there's nothing "outside" of ourselves. I think that to experience this we need to drop our rational mind, because the mind needs to create limits in order to work, thats the very essence of rational thought...
I would say that meditation makes us able to "observe" the mind without being immersed in it. Sometimes people confuse meditation with "meditation techniques" like counting breaths, etc. But to meditate is just to observe the mind and its categorizations. So I guess we're basically describing the same process with different words, what you call rational thought I call meditation... nice, hopefully this makes it clearer for both of us, so thanks for the insight my friend.
meditation is meditation- swimming is swimming, experiencing is experiencing. what is is, what is not is not. now go bring into existence something new.
I partly agree, basically there's no way to fully "understand" the world trough rational thought, as proven by the incompleteness theorem and the uncertainty principle.I could rationally explain how everything is connected, but there is a difference between "knowing" about these connections and "experiencing" them. I could "know" the sea by reading books, but it's never like going for a swim. Logic is like looking at a picture of the sea, meditation is swimming. I believe both are useful though.
Mckenna is on shrooms and Wilber isn't! Lol. seriously...shrooms can perhaps open doors of perception and enable one to peak experience a higher state but there is no evidence that shrooms lead to realization or actualization of a higher stage of growth. States and stages are different. I don't agree with everything Wilber says either but I would have to say that his philosophy is closer to the truth.
There is actual evidence, just check out the study they did a couple years ago that proved that psilocybin mushrooms induces a mystical experience in most people who take it.
I don't see why it would.....mystical experience can be triggered in a wide variety of ways. Any one way isn't better than any other, although I do think it's most accessible to the common man through entheogens.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is... what do you mean when you say "mystical experience" and what lends more credit to such an experience than any other kind of experience?
I'm not saying mystical experience is necessarily superior to other experiences, but it is a rare experience that in my opinion should be experienced to find the bigger picture. A mystical experience can be defined as any sort of experience within a higher state of consciousness where one discovers a higher order to things, or the world seen in a different way, though there are many other ways to define it. Any such unusual experience in my opinion is valid.
Okay... let me try this again, because I don't think I've been clear with the point I'm trying to get at... How do you validate such an experience as a "higher" state of consciousness? How do you know that such an experience represents truth? I'm not saying it doesn't, by the way. What I'm saying is that knowing truth requires more proof than experience, otherwise there's no reason to doubt the claims of schizophrenics, for example.
But maybe you're not suggesting that such a state of consciousness is the truth. Perhaps having such an experience simply results in a great benefit of some sort... for instance, perhaps, those that experience such a state become more peaceful and caring human beings. Nonetheless, you seemed to be making a truth statement by asserting that such mystical experiences are "higher" states of consciousness that express a "higher order" and "bigger picture." Thoughts?
Well yeah, sort of. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one consciousness is better than the other. But rather, to understand the bigger picture one should experience. Because existing as an independent island of consciousness in a bag skin is ultimately counter-intuitive and leads to an a egoic alienation that ultimately leads to the destruction of nature instead of intelligent cooperation. Any sort of experience is important, but the mystical experience is a state often not met with.
Okay, sure. But you said yourself, "...to understand the bigger picture." What bigger picture? How do you know this "bigger picture" is accurate? It cannot be considered accurate just because you experienced it. "Existing as an independent island of consciousness in a bag of skin" as you put it, is actually rather difficult to achieve, as people constantly exchange information (sharing consciousness) with each other. You and I are doing it right now.
Of course, each of us IS limited to one brain and one body and thus our conscious experience is always restricted to some extent. I cannot ever fully know what it is like to BE someone else. Although the "mystical state" may or may not often be achieved, I do not think it is at all necessary for the development of the enlightenment you are hinting at. I think, perhaps, it may be an enriching experience and may solidify such enlightenment, but I do not think it is required...
I can be conscious that the earth is round, and behave accordingly, without experiencing it's roundness. See what I'm saying? Rationality and empiricism play a big part in this whole thing as well.
Yeah I see what your saying.I'm not saying we go down one sort of path,such as abandoning rationalism for experience only and vice versa.Everything in moderation I would say.I think though that often times we go too much into the rational and not devote enough time to what is experienced.Ofcourse empiricism is itself a form of experience.You can't make scientific predictions before experiencing the scientific truths,as the experimentalists do(ie seeing the background radiation for the big bang).
John Horgan contrasts these Two in his book Rational Mysticism; Wilber Bothers Him, whereas Mckenna Doesn't; He feels wilber is Being Humble in an Arrogant Way(a cultivated humility). Horgan was a former Editor for Scientific American
I don't know who these guys are you are talking about but you gave me a clear picture of how you see them; I believe you were, if not totality objective, then enough that I couldn't determine which one you leaned towards. I know that Wiburn, I believe you called him, impressed you because of the fact that he was able to hold his mind together under the influence of conscious altering drugs and still be able to relate his thoughts but I believe you equal him in your ability to think clearly.
Thank you for summing up their philosophies, I know that I navigate through both. Once, I discovered "the other side" this side began to make more sense. Thank you for letting me see myself in your thoughts.
it is always a personal proces they just tell about theirs and there is a lot to relate to but never the same (or you must be a copycat) maybe if people focus on their own proces en be open for it instead of comparing others
some thoughts: you are spot on about Wilbur. McKenna? I wasn't happy with his 'heroic dose'. Anmd tripping in his head. thats a kind of psychedelic rational :). i feel shrooms are for partcipation WITH Nature!
Now background...trippy hair dude hehe. did you know that that picture of the Earth from space is phny and the astronauts were caught fakin it?? see the fuzzy laine between dark and light.
Those "fake" Moon landing theories are utter and complete nonsense. People around the world with amateur short wave radios were even able to hear the astronauts' Moon broadcasts. Yes, humanity did go to the Moon, get over it!
I don't know if I've seen that specific DVD -- you fail to even name it -- but I have read and heard a lot of these various "fake Moon landing" theories. All nonsense.
I hope none of this is from the work of Richard Hoagland, who has these silly theories.
Please look up on Google, etc., for the responses by Scientists and researchers to these various theories -- every strange or suspicious item has a reasonable explanation.
No he really meant CULTURES itself.
The religion is full of shit, money is printed on toilet paper, fame is worthless, the important thing at this moment is your humaness and the only thing making war on your humaness is your culture. Class boundries language boundries gender boundries
foreverxundefined 3 months ago
Terrence Mckenna was on another plane - truly a god, and in my mind is far more interesting every bit as if not more intelligent... and entertaining but lets be honest they are completely different and its silly to compare
CalumnMcAulay 5 months ago
terrible ringing noise in this video. Sounds like you have some good feedback but the feedback from the noise is hard on the ears.
Revel136 5 months ago
Hey there!, I honor you for being interested in so open-minded and revolutionary people. Every person is the best. Thank you for this space
kopadenieve 7 months ago
Something you said about training the intuition peaked my interest. What do you think of Tarot in that regard?
Robikus 9 months ago
I think they compliment each other really.
I'd throw Alex Grey in as a bridge between the two :)
SammmmmyG 10 months ago
Comparing T. McKenna and K. Wilber is comparing a tent to a 5 star hotel. And I do mean in that order.
pplasqui 10 months ago
@pplasqui Five star motels are gaudy and a symptom of the imbalances of our world. A tent is a tent in which you have your own experience in and with nature. I'd rather go camping in a tent than spend my time in some hotel, regardless of all the amenities of the hotel.
sirclintonify 8 months ago 3
@pplasqui bbb
sirclintonify 8 months ago
@pplasqui are you nuts?
CalumnMcAulay 5 months ago
Whoa dude, what're doin on the moon man?? Far out!
ekitman 11 months ago
Ken Wilber is phenomenal and helps individuals understand and take the necessary steps to progressing as human being (practical and needed). Terence McKenna is speaking of the entirety of existence, on multiple evels of awareness, both scientific and shamanic. His vocabulary and wisdom is beyond most well-educated people. His breadth and experience have given him incomprehensible insight that melts time. To compare them is unrealistic. Both are geniuses, but McKenna is a jaw-dropper.
RootsNahNah 1 year ago 6
@RootsNahNah
sirclintonify 8 months ago
Is this Neil Armstrong?
Gerazini 1 year ago
i think you make some good points. it's interesting to see people my age or younger give a shit.
Thrashaero 1 year ago
Just curious about the superliminal high frequency ramp you had going on in the background? not sure if anyone else picked it up. is that a ken wilber thing?
nisgore 1 year ago
I think Terrence would still be giving his rants on the benefits of dmt/psilocybin to the entities/sentient beings in the next realm. Terrence dared to go where even the bravest of psychonaugts feared to tread. I miss you Terrence!!! you were a great man, a shinning light, and a courageous crusader.
Rusty0555 1 year ago 3
boooring
warcloud463 1 year ago
Culture is not your friend means culture is a way to keep things they way they are, even though they are not as good as they could be.
typeclash 1 year ago
So, Ken Wilber might say that McKenna should be more integral! (geez, isn't that a scary thought). Terence's worldview is therefore valid, but partial.
I really wish I could know what an integrally/Wilber informed Terence McKenna would have made of it all. For a discussion of an integral approach to psychedelic use, search google because Ken Wilber has a good talk about it on a site called DIY Dharma.
My answer to the question is, yes, enculturation does both
photent 1 year ago
When Terence McKenna said 'culture is not your friend', I believe he was directing that at all human beings. It wasn't just a metaphorical criticism of cultures that value excessive materialism and patriarchy, it was more broadly aimed at the 'automatic, unquestioned and unthinking behaviour' (McKenna) of humans as a result of enculturation.
Also, Terence McKenna identified as a rationalist and had a perspective on god as being a planetary 'Gaian mind'.
photent 1 year ago
@photent Have you read Michael Hoffman's theory on Ego Death? He explicates it thoroughly at his website egodeath.com. It concerns fatalism and psychedelics. Terence McKenna argued against that, an example could be found here at YouTube in Terence's lecture titled "Appreciating Imagination". Look for part 7/41 and fast-forward 5:16 to hear his argument against predestination or what's more commonly called "hard determinism."
Hanahleia 1 year ago
@Hanahleia oh wow, thankyou so much for that link, this looks really interesting, i'll have to spend a while reading.
photent 11 months ago
Society is your reflected projected mind, so you decide what you would like to see and then see it. :P Idea from the videos on hallographic universe.
intelite 1 year ago
It's almost as if McKenna represents the 'right-brain', and Wilber the left. Both are necessary!
1levitron 1 year ago
@1levitron Or Wilber is The Architect of the Matrix, and McKenna is the Oracle. In male form that is.
AirAssault7 1 year ago
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FeelOfFriction 1 year ago
Holy shit, this dude is a kid...what a old ageist moron I must be...I really assumed you were an older woman/man...hysterical.
nice job kid.
really.
savagemailbox 1 year ago
1) quien le dio autoridad a este pendejo
2)ambos autores vieron y sintieron la VERDAD en carne, y creo q esos pensamiento mas q contraponerse deberian fundirse en mentes q hayan llegado a ese nivel y no debatir las idioteces de imbeciles new-age, de cortos, de inexperimentados y de intelectuales simplistas
MaiteJonas 1 year ago
The difference is that Mckenna was more postmodern- angry at society and what not whereas Wilber is actually looking very deeply and without judgment at the different levels of consciousness in the world and how they interact with each other and how that interaction shapes the world society. Wilber rises above anger in his assessment of the here and now and because of that he is able to see just how incredible EVERY aspect of existence is. All duality is a manifestation of the Nondual.
shadowmongoose 1 year ago
@shadowmongoose I don't think McKenna was angry at society, per se. He was angry at what we're becoming by manipulation of the few into this kind of multi-headed hydra that seems out to destroy everything in it's path including it's own den. Our conciousness is evolving very quickly now. You have, basically, two camps. One side welcomes the evolution and one side resists it in favor of materialism, self-centeredness and ego.
Kostly 1 year ago 4
Wilber is not authoritarian and I wouldn't say that he is for "following the prescribed rules" exactly either. He does say that the spiritual traditions are useful tools.
It doesn't take as much discipline as you'd think to meditate every day. Once you get past the beginning stages then you generally want to keep going because it is so utterly amazing and life changing.
shadowmongoose 1 year ago
well put my freind
spasemonkey05 1 year ago
mckennas philosophy is the quick jolt, or shock, to the psychic and mental faculties, a sort of lighting rod for new ideas and perceptions about the world, which indeed is very powerful. wilbers philosophy is slow discovery, carefully meditating, mapping out mental and spiritual territories, cultivating a gradual connection with higher or deeper spaces.
so the question is do you want to learn a practice in wilbers case, or do you want to download files, in mckennas case?
sexdeathlovefear 2 years ago 20
@sexdeathlovefear Yes I can see that. McKenna was definitely an idea machine
Consciousish 1 year ago
So If you want to do drugs (experience new states downloading) and have an amazing experience read either one. if you want more than that read them both and learn from them both. But dont stop there. or stop there, either way if youve been awakened (then theres nothing to do. other than just hold on or let go. it doesnt matter)[paraphrased from a brief history of everything]
BesottedlyDialecticl 1 year ago 3
@sexdeathlovefear So If you want to do drugs (experience new states "download") and have an amazing experience read either one. if you want more than that read them both and learn from them both. But dont stop there. or stop there either way if youve been awakened (theres nothing to do. other than just hold on or let go. it doesnt matter)
BesottedlyDialecticl 1 year ago 3
@sexdeathlovefear
Create a synergy of both in your own style.
FeelOfFriction 1 year ago
@sexdeathlovefear McKenna does teach a practice: taking 5 grams of P. cubensis in silent darkness, and then you get your own philosophy
6sully8391 1 year ago 2
@sexdeathlovefear I want to DL files...MOst efficient!
DoctrinaBytes 1 year ago
I'm not sure I know what you mean there - but I'll try to clarify what I was saying in my previous comments and relate it to your comment. Yellow/vision-logic might indeed see archetypes as Kosmic patterns of harmonious energy and intelligence, or something like that - whereas purple sees them as mythical 'spirits', in a more superstitious kind of way. I do believe spirits are real in one way or another - and I often resonate with them through both the purple and yellow memes - both pre & trans
rrippp 2 years ago
Whether he was or was not incorrect, meditation is not for everyone, especially the mentally disabled. Many psychedelics are excellent medicines and probes for vaguely researched mental conditions. Yes, it seems he had a bias, but it was perhaps more because of the quick benefits he was used to receiving from the drugs. Mckenna did use meditation, but always in the presence of plant-based hallucinogens. Meditation often plays out in many aspects of daily life without us knowing.
yoseph89 2 years ago
Vision logic is the kind of integrative mind that reflects the yellow meme, worldcentric development (or higher), the integration of mind of body, and the dynamic interaction of both the left and right brain hemishpheres. It sees the patterns of Kosmic Connection, whereas previous levels would have used logic in an abstract, linear way that is not as much an accurate reflection of the Kosmos.
rrippp 2 years ago
you've got me all figured out, this comin from a man looking for answers on the internet. keep using labels to keep your mind in that prison it is never escaping. we can see eachother is this or that, but clearly you have not woken to anything if you continue to treat your fellow man with such disrespect. i was gonna leave you in sympathy with your imprisoned mind to fend for itself with answers from randoms on internet channels. were all the same
stett99 2 years ago
I said Mckenna considered it to be obsolete. He really considers meditation as part of the fundamental state of thought one can begin with to achieve enlightenment, but that psychedelics were much more efficient towards that goal. He also believed meditation could be used as an additive or method of thought for tripping on psychedelic substances. He was NOT dense.
yoseph89 2 years ago
that's quite true - though i see a lot of purple surfacing in the New Age, often in the guise of second-tier (a pre-trans fallacy of magic posing as vision logic). It is wierd that Science ignores Astrology. One only needs to look at the stats for crime on full moon nights to know that these huge cosmic bodies do after all have a huge effect. If our bodies are bodies of water with magnetic particles in it (one way of looking at it), then how could these huge magnetic bodies NOT have an effect!
rrippp 2 years ago
Could be. I used to be the same way - thinking drugs were the mother-lode!! In the long run they brought me nothing but trouble (some of it quite brutal and demonic). Drugs will give you a flash, but you fall right back within minutes or days to where you began, or lower. It's really quite an immature approach to growth, and at best it will give poor results, and at worst it could bring nightmares (my own 'nightmares' being addiction, psychosis, schizophrenia, and physica/subtle body damage)
rrippp 2 years ago
look up luciferianism its connections with masonry and the establishment of the British Corporation known as The United States of America. the ancient symbolism used on the dollar bill and each national currency on the planet. skull n bones. this is why we have a queen. we think its a joke, where does the divine right to rule come from? because of your blood, this is why we have a red carpet. represents bloodline.. wake up realize what u are, then you can talk about subjectivity
stett99 2 years ago
Thats a good metaphor. It's worth remembering that Shamans still have an element of turqoise (or at least teal) insight, while their culture is grounded in rather primitive purple. People could have an orange rational centre of gravity, which is more sophisticated and evolved, but they still may not have this access to the transcendent that the Shamans had. I work with a Shaman that is well integrated into the modern world, and his work goes much deeper than modern psychological approaches.
rrippp 2 years ago
If there must be a 'vs', then I prefer Ken's work, though I still like Terence. The long-term, multidinmensional, integrated approach that Ken embodies is much more transformative. Terence's approach involves temporarily contacting higher realms. This rarely results in any lasting transformation, and the insight is often translated downward into the terms of the lower centre-of-gravity of the person's psychology. I have tried both approaches, and I must say that Integral Life Practice kicks ass!
rrippp 2 years ago
imagine being a philosophy professor and having to listen to the ramblings of dbag undergrads all day...
PapaWilk 2 years ago
Whats with all the seen kids getting into the occult and pscydelia and making complete waste of time you tube videos..??
*You arent passing on any knowledge, your just a D bag who likes to here yourself talk.
laqtor 2 years ago
That might be true for a lot of kids, but this guy has 1 million video views, and really seem to inspire a lot of people. Peace!
mkklmann 2 years ago
this says alot
patternsinchaos 2 years ago
Redlite you are a shining star in my universe. I adore McKenna. He authentically reports his own experiences and responds to his sense perceptions with creativity and kindness. I cannot stand Wilbur, who seems to have no human qualities, no humility or wonder. Disembodied, he idolizes the mind. As an apologist for the religion of brains, he worships his own most of all. One must admit that lots of nice people go along with it. Guess I'm just jealous.
Spanglefeather 2 years ago
You haven't really investigated Ken's work thoroughly if these are your conclusions. His approach reaches from the lowest rungs of body right up to the ultimate ground of Spirit, including everything in between. I wonder how much of your own shadow you're projecting onto Ken?
rrippp 2 years ago
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Kevin is an interdimensional portal of being/s of light, a deceitful lier who wants to condemned people just like he already is...his body, mind & senses are just a tool for the ascended masters or interdimensional negative beings in a disguise of pure light beings, its your decition to fall or not fall on his trapt.
AnonymousQuarks 2 years ago
Perhaps the method one uses to achieve enlightenment and truth is not nearly as relevant as to the choice one must make as to pursue it or not ... suggesting perhaps the general lack of interest in society as to what truth is is where a more serious problem exists ...
PietyOFpaxson 2 years ago 2
well said
EMT22637 2 years ago
That's a good point. If we're debating who'se methods are better, then I definitely go with Ken's . But how does one get a culture of narcissism and materialistic greed to look with in and become interested in difficult work and ego-death? I don't have any decent answers. Even when one IS interested, it is still bloody hard work sometimes!!
rrippp 2 years ago
I don't much about McKenna - though I've used psychadelics many times in the past - but I do know that Wilber is not just a 'rationalist'. I would called him a jnana yogi, though. He uses the intellect as a tool to understand what is deemed knowledge and intellect, and does it in a very humorous way, if you read his books. In order to present concepts regarding the highest levels of awareness in the world's spiritual traditions, it has to use logic to get these ideas across. But even he makes
tizray 2 years ago
.it clear that reason and language cannot explain certain levels of truth, and he gives the example of the Madhyamika mystic Nagarjuna and the nature of nondual awareness in his first book, Spectrum of Consciousness. Truth at the level he speaks cannot be grasped through words, because it is an intuitive flash that occurs, which is a seeing the whole at once, which is outside the scope of reason. I would suggest reading his first book, because intuition does play a big part in 'his' philosophy.
tizray 2 years ago
drugs dont enlighten,they manipulate brain chemistry in an artifical way. you take a plant etc and your chemisry is changed. meditaion isnt based on fantasies, you look at whats there.
vajraloka1 2 years ago
yes... not to mention: have a thought, a feeling, a motor response, and your chemistry is changed. either there is only nature, or there is only artiface. Otherwise you're imposing a substance dualism onto a process which cannot be divided. What 'is' there? By changing your instrument of observation (ie, altering brain chemistry/bodily comportment), you change the way the thing observed arises. There is no separation between subject and object; your consciousness is also chemical.
0ThouArtThat0 2 years ago 2
there is much evidence to support that "pre-civilization" human groups obtained psychedelics through their diets. these experiences fueled evolution in the social and spiritual realms.the earliest vedas praise soma as a way to reach the gods. sadus have been consuming charas for millenia. in what way is consuming natural plant matter artificial? the idea is that when consuming these plants, they tune your consciousness with that of the higher intelligence that permeates all of existence
stonedLOVEmonkey 2 years ago
bogus. wilbur doesnt specify rules. you cant just live without restraint in yourself yuo will self destruct yuorself and others. rules of society are not opression they are to decrease suffering. low level persons dont CARE about what they do to others so they need rules from "others" so we can survive.like defending children who cant defend themselves.
vajraloka1 2 years ago
You ARE soceity...its not us and them
vajraloka1 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
they both advocate demon worship
stett99 2 years ago
whaaaaat????!!!!!!! you must be a demon yourself if you came to that conclusion!!:)
rrippp 2 years ago
Physcedelics Vs. Spiral Dynamics = Integral emergence of consciousness
Both great people if you ask me...
SlimD11 2 years ago
Although, one clearly accepts meditation and the other considers it to be obsolete, do you think Mckenna and Watts are very much alike? I love them both and find dramatic similar qualities between both of their philosophies. Watts however, is personally a much better orator than Mckenna.
yoseph89 2 years ago
I don't think meditation is obsolete. A slow, gradual practice results in development, much like the rings forming in the trunk of a tree. Temporary 'mind-blowing' insights on drugs are great, but you fall right back down to where you were before you took them... I realised that once when I was coming down off LSD, and I became excited and dedicated about the years of inner work I would have to do to get back to a place that the acid brought me to in minutes.
rrippp 2 years ago
wonderful analsis! how old are you! keep the awesome work up
Mike3gdc 2 years ago
Well, I dont think its a contest. But They BOTH have a huge hand in humanity. Just imagine this world. If there was more Mckenna. Or more Ken Wilbers.
g613044 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Yes, what a great place this would be.
We could quite easily do without these kinds of people.
cspace1234nz 2 years ago
No Contest Wilbur is Wilbur, and Mckenna is a GOD.
negative909 2 years ago 30
wow ! nice one !
Zabek2006 2 years ago
Wilber is quite aware that his essence is GOD, much in the same way that McKenna does. The fact that you don't even spell his name right shows how little you know about his work.
rrippp 2 years ago
I absolutely agree with you. I have followed Wilber from Boomeritis into AQAL (whew). Extraordinarily rational, which appealed to me coming from a base orange vmeme. But though they approach the perceived coming of the shift in cultural awareness differently, I believe they are perceiving the same "place".
aknightofswords 2 years ago
Right/Wrong just perceptions of conditioning.
Society is for society does not care about individual it cares about society and must repress the individual though emotional manipulation.
It is the old adage of law of one (oneness) vs individual as far back as Atlantis.
The west vs the eastern train of thought.
None right none wrong just what they are.
I prefer William Blakes angle
Do as you will, life is a fiction based on contradiction.
Eternal Hedonist
jdnails2 2 years ago
old paradigm that has been deadly to mankind is " We are born sinners trying to get to heaven "
A new paradigm that is empowering. "We are born saints, coming from experiencing heaven "
billyjo1881 2 years ago
Ken Wilbur is NOT against drugs
Simbai69 2 years ago 2
Language is code and that code was created, from the beginning, with mind controlling phonetic memes and relational characteristics that propagate consumerism and constant disatisfaction. This is mental illness. Until the code is broken, our thoughts are not free or true. We, each, are not driving our own vehicle, but are controlled by unseen forces guided by those who have learned to program in a more rudimentary language.
bqreus 2 years ago 2
Very well put my friend. Don't think any of us could have said that better!
creationofself 2 years ago
Thanks.
bqreus 2 years ago
I don't think the origins are that sinister. Language evolved long before capitalism or fascism!! lol.. I think it evolved because it has a function. Being STUCK in language is obviously a problem - because one will mistake one's concepts for their Real reference points. But language can be transcended and included so one is not stuck in it, and it is used with some degree of consciousness and freedom
rrippp 2 years ago
keep on smiling^^
EasyStu007 2 years ago
the difference is simple... McKenna wins.. he had a REAL beard;-)
-------------------
Wilbur seems to be talking to the more 'uptight' crowd, who *need* qaudrants etc to make them feel all modern/'scientific'.
illuminatidred 2 years ago
Quadrants are here to stay. Postwilberian integral views posit mathematical, dynamic integrations between all quadrants. Ken Wilber's model is vision-logic based, but further levels utilize transpersonal stages not merely transpersonal states of consciousness (and culture). There is no point deconstructing the quadrants.
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
By integrations I mean interactions. :) I hope you end up reading that LOL. See thee.
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
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cscottblev 2 years ago
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there's nothing to deconstruct. all the quadrants are simply a perspective on THIS. you can also say its a more complete perspective. ....and THIS is all there is.
cscottblev 2 years ago
Yes the 4 quadrants are a more complete and whole perspective than quadrant absolutism. The next stage would go further in integration, starting to transcend visionlogic, which is the last way of thought of the linear stage of cognition. Then come the circular translations of information-energy, of which the comprehension is still emerging, Gross is linear. Subtle is circular, Causal is point-like. Nondual is radial and completely integrated. I'm talking about stages, not about states now.
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
I don't NEED quadrants. If you mean by 'uptight' that we're a bit more mature, dedicated and grounded in practice rather than temporary WOWEE moments that one quickly loses, then sure - we are uptight as hell!! lol. I enjoyed your beard comment all the same ;)
rrippp 2 years ago
what you were trying to say can be summarized like this: Wilber is a left-brainer (rational), while Mckenna has a more right-brain way of thinking (intuition)
xxXghislainXxx 2 years ago
Authorities throughout thousand of years have been trying to suppress knowledge, specifically, the knowledge about psychedelics and entheogens and how they can improve the mind and allow oneself to directly experience consciousness as one and not separated in dualities, thus, helping us evolve and continue the process that begun millions of years ago.
xxXghislainXxx 2 years ago
Memes and Archetypes and Egregores, O my!
Takes memes, and chop them up with a dash of archetypes, and season with psychedelic mushrooms - stir fry it together, add salt and pepper to taste - and then read Paco Nathan Xander's "Corporate Metabolism" - and then serve it all on a bed of steamed rice with hot peppers, a twist of Information theory, a touch of Game theory and Systems theory all on the side and Vola! A buffet of food for thought!
Devas, Egregores and Godforms, O my,..
SororThothma 2 years ago
The essential difference betwixt McKenna and Wilber is that the proof McKenna speaks about can be directly experienced. Mushrooms can be eaten, and thereby directly known, personally - beyond mere theories or conjecture. Direct Gnostic experience of hyperdimensionality and many worlds thereby. In that sense Wilber's work is a good adjunct to McKenna's, but McKenna trumps Wilber in that the Mushrooms are their own proof. The Mushroom speaks for Itself to anyone willing to synch with it.
SororThothma 2 years ago 3
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leezus83 2 years ago
We do have to be careful about our own egos here. Wilber has repeatedly hammered home the fact that his map of the Kosmos is constantly subject to change. We must continue to validate his observations no doubt. Let's not so easily forget that the man is human even considering his almost superhuman contribution to the fields of philosophy, science, and spirituality.
Self2infinite 2 years ago 2
guys this is nt the super bowl...instead of picking sides lets celebrate the fact that they re both on the same team, OURS!
topstot 2 years ago 4
Well put young man. Very well done.
Perfect example of an "old soul" in a young vehicle. Blessings. Keep the light.
rosiebrownejackson 2 years ago 2
You are quite right to question K.W's model. In my view 'spirit' is vastly more
intelligent than any human or human race.
What's more it is' free' and does not impose structures of any kind. Structures and formulas are created by human minds not by the sustaining consciousness(awareness). Please look up "John Wheeler" if you need to understand this deeply. Thank you. Alan Chaplin
Hoodooal 3 years ago
Each person needs to take serious responsibility for their state, their actual mental, psychic, emotional state. We walk around each day in a self-deluded dream of our own mind-forms, super-imposing our 'picture' of things onto reality. We are in the dark to what is Real, there can be no real and lasting change for humanity until each persons 'business' is handled on the most intimate and personal level of their consciousness. There is so much of the blind leading the blind out there.
mrpoly5555 3 years ago 2
The world is a collective psychic apparition not to be trusted - also known as Maya. Human culture was originally developed based on a collective effort to produce food and shelter for its members, it is still only that, but has become corrupted by the collective egoity of its appointed leaders. When each individual takes responsibility for their ego in a process of self-transcendence via meditative practice the big picture will change and these seemingly insurmountable problems will rebalance.
mrpoly5555 3 years ago
What is your point? I think you're fishing for your ego. If you know anything about anything you would know that it's not about Terrence McKenna or Ken Wilber. In the time you took to stroke your own ego you could've spread a much more comprehensive summary of McKenna and Wilber's message. It's not about McKenna or Wilber, it's about the knowledge they were offering us. I think you should leave the lectures to McKenna.
i8numbers 3 years ago 3
well said.....ego flatulence, nicely put ...that.
rosiebrownejackson 2 years ago
McKenna is right as far as what is REALLY happening if you understand 2012, the planetary crisis, and the Other. The transcendental object IS here, let the mind games begin. Once you play such games McKenna will make a lot more sense.
fasdl 3 years ago
Terrence mckenna is much more creative.
while Ken wilber is much more rational.
i'd go with terrence any day.
i'd listen to wilber and then go out for a day.
both are intellectuals, but terrence i don't think rapped around people intentionally, it was a phase for him i'd think, i'm not sure. whereas ken wilber seems to develop somekind of private group crowd around him, i would certainly not want to use the word Cult, but there it is, Lol.
Lion117 3 years ago
i like ur style. i think ken wilber is a charlatan tho. my name is dennis and so is terrence mckennas brother. food of the gods is great.
cardiacs74 3 years ago
Actually I think Mckenna basically rejects culture in general, not just our modern culture. The reason he gives is that most cultures deal with people on a large scale, and can't help but assume that they're all the same, and that's wrong. One of his catch phases is "trust yourself with the raw data."
terminalbacon 3 years ago
If McKenna and Wilber are both talking about the same general idea, but from different syles, does it almost seem to add more dimensions to Wilber's Quadrants? If both are speaking of integration, future of human development/evolution, etc, then both must already include eachother in their mix. Yet they are opposing. So what then.. a possible 2 versions of the 4Q's existing in another 4Q's? or more?
(sorry if thats incoherent, kinda thought it out while i typed it out. plus it's late...)
raudhre 3 years ago
These 4 quadrants are actually a simpler form of 8 perspectives.
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
I can hear your pos pc fan haha lol
dr0matic 3 years ago
creative wild avenues of thought and conversation. the original question is basically "growth to goodness" vs "return to eden" are we golden and society stamps it out of us or are we rotten and society grows us more compassionate? wilber answers both. people need to be socialised to fit into a group with ethics and takin perspectives, and in that process a lot of individuality and natural impulse is repressed and suppressed and needs to be reclaimed. mckenna was 'return to eden'-model follower
lugonhhh 3 years ago
a very poor argument and grasp of these two thinkers in my opinion.
to say wilber is a mere rationalist is such a take away of so much of his work. he is constantly using conscious reasoning in very intelligent clear and precise ways to get a big comprehensive view of everything, and also constantly showing that that same process is insufficient and misses the point of real spirituality. mckenna was more of a verbal artist, a bard, than a serious philosopher, he played with ideas and opened
lugonhhh 3 years ago
nice vid
1 disagreement tho
Mckenna dealt with primitive cultures extensively. 'The Archaic Revival' talks about the revolving cycles within our collective experience repeating itself since the beginning of our species, and 'Food of the Gods' portrays his theory about the role of psychedelics in the evolution of humanity. So while the 2 may differ on their points of view they did both write about these things.
not trying to correct just thought u might wanna check em out
ez
ManAbandonedByColor 3 years ago
The "Wonder Years" guy is right!
Robikus 3 years ago
To finish my comment: It includes and transcends rationality, and there are larger bigger holons of consicousness that these two holons are nested in.
racetoinfinity 3 years ago
Transrational states & stages of consciousness have been observed,lived, and described quite clearly in many Eastern religions as early as 600 BCE (Buddhism, Vedanta), so it's definitely not too soon to desrcibe trans-rational stages and states of consciousness. Wilber is NOT a rationalist. He is an Integralist, who inlcudes rationality and intuition and more. Intution is the "psychic" or "body/mind+" or "meta-neo-organic/somatic" or "centauric" or early second-tier stage in Wilber's model.
racetoinfinity 3 years ago
Quantum physics is a product of Newtonian physics but the end product revolutionized our understanding of the underpinnings of the universe. Rationality and the whole world ARE duality bound as is the whole material world. Witness the whole array of opposites. Day/Night, Hot/Cold etc. The human nervous system is even dualistic, Sympathetic/Parasympathetic. At the cosmic subjective level the only criteria for reality is what the INDIVIDUAL experiences and it's very often irrational and illogical
manyhue 3 years ago
Excellent exploration of two really powerful roads. In shamanism sometimes called the left hand and the right hand paths. Culture is invariably a dead end for the individual. Rational thought is an obvious impediment to unity consciousness. As is experiential visionary exploration a challenge to integration. All developmental stages........ yet probably necessary.
manyhue 3 years ago
What does McKenna mean exactly when he says "culture"? Also, what is unity consciousness and why is rational thought an obvious impediment to it?
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
Those are massive questions. I would say culture is anything that is an artifact of neocortex behavior, like tools, man made objects. The accumulation of culture tends to make the objective world seem all too real. As an example, you "must" have a job to pay the mortgage.
Rational thought is an impediment because, again it tends to make the observable world seem like the only "reality". You tend to think that you are your own profound thoughts. "I think therefore, I am. " and that's all....
manyhue 3 years ago
Ah, okay. I understand the culture part better now, but I don't understand the rational thought part. Isn't the very definition of reality that which is logically consistent and empirically verifiable? I do not see how rationality would be an impediment to discovering reality.
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
Logic and reason are valuable at the objective level of reality. However every level is a transition to a more inclusive level. At the quantum level of the universe, reality unfolds "with the logic of a dream" observing something changes it. Observer and observed become unified in ways that the duality bound mind cannot comprehend. At this level dream figures are as real as flesh and blood figures or you could say are more primary, more archetypal. Effects can take place before causes.
manyhue 3 years ago
Yes, but quantum physics is very much a product of rational thinking, so your point doesn't really hold. Rational thinking is not "duality bound." "Duality bound" is a perspective, or perhaps a philosophical stance, but it does not define rational thinking. My point is that there must be criteria for truth/reality, and rational thinking is imperative to it as has so far been demonstrated.
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
Rationally know one knows were the source of electricity comes from. Keep asking the question, and were does that come from ? Ultmately know one knows.
billyjo1881 2 years ago
very well stated, thank you
billyjo1881 2 years ago
The next 2 comments should be read in the opposite order (the second one is actually the first one), sorry :)
santiagueri 3 years ago
You might want to rethink the idea of culutre. I don't think Terrence and you are looking at it the same way. I think he means culture as in anything available for consumption, including fine arts, books, etc. He does tend to speak generally.
nocrazyyou 3 years ago
Very cool man, I'd review the part where you say that Wilber is a rationalist. Rationalists are usually people on a world centric approach, which is based on science, Wilber includes science in his model, but there is also the inclusion of eastern traditions which explain the world in a more organic view. That is why he emphasizes meditation techniques so much, since with meditation you get realizations that are just impossible to understand through our dualistic rational mind.
santiagueri 3 years ago
hmmm. I tend to hear this a lot, but I can't say that I've ever heard any promoters of meditation (including wilber) describe any results or realizations from meditation that I (and others I know) have not been able to achieve simply through rational thought. Meditation, as I have experienced myself, has only served to remind or reinvigorate realizations previously arrived at. I think people often first arrive to such realizations via meditation and then mistakenly consider it to be the only way
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
I partly agree, basically there's no way to fully "understand" the world trough rational thought, as proven by the incompleteness theorem and the uncertainty principle.I could rationally explain how everything is connected, but there is a difference between "knowing" about these connections and "experiencing" them. I could "know" the sea by reading books, but it's never like going for a swim. Logic is like looking at a picture of the sea, meditation is swimming. I believe both are useful though
santiagueri 3 years ago
Sure, I suppose. But I think thought can lead to that "experience" just as well as meditation can. I think meditation works, because it is, in principle, a discarding of our symbols, representations, or categories, which eventually begins to erode the boundaries we perceive in the universe, including that between the self and everything else. Thus, through meditation, one "experiences" the connection. Nonetheless, I actually think that people do the same thing with thought...
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
...it kind of works like this. Thought has the remarkable ability to reflect upon itself and absorb the very categories it creates into a kind of infinite looping or regressive compartmentalization, which ultimately results in the "experience" of "no boundaries" or "everything is connected."
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
I believe thats a beautiful description of what meditation actually does, it ultimately exhausts the mind. After a while we "realize" that the mind is just looping infinitely and that there's just "nothing to understand" because there's nothing "outside" of ourselves. I think that to experience this we need to drop our rational mind, because the mind needs to create limits in order to work, thats the very essence of rational thought...
santiagueri 3 years ago
I would say that meditation makes us able to "observe" the mind without being immersed in it. Sometimes people confuse meditation with "meditation techniques" like counting breaths, etc. But to meditate is just to observe the mind and its categorizations. So I guess we're basically describing the same process with different words, what you call rational thought I call meditation... nice, hopefully this makes it clearer for both of us, so thanks for the insight my friend.
santiagueri 3 years ago
BINGO!
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
meditation is meditation- swimming is swimming, experiencing is experiencing. what is is, what is not is not. now go bring into existence something new.
billyjo1881 2 years ago 2
I partly agree, basically there's no way to fully "understand" the world trough rational thought, as proven by the incompleteness theorem and the uncertainty principle.I could rationally explain how everything is connected, but there is a difference between "knowing" about these connections and "experiencing" them. I could "know" the sea by reading books, but it's never like going for a swim. Logic is like looking at a picture of the sea, meditation is swimming. I believe both are useful though.
santiagueri 3 years ago
The difference is Mckenna is a burnt out hippie while Ken Wilber is a genius.
Glass2007 3 years ago
Mckenna is on shrooms and Wilber isn't! Lol. seriously...shrooms can perhaps open doors of perception and enable one to peak experience a higher state but there is no evidence that shrooms lead to realization or actualization of a higher stage of growth. States and stages are different. I don't agree with everything Wilber says either but I would have to say that his philosophy is closer to the truth.
Magik1369 3 years ago
closer to the what?
redliterocket4 3 years ago
There is actual evidence, just check out the study they did a couple years ago that proved that psilocybin mushrooms induces a mystical experience in most people who take it.
silverbackman 3 years ago
Sooo... couldn't that just as well discredit the "mystical experience" that occurs while not taking drugs?
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
I don't see why it would.....mystical experience can be triggered in a wide variety of ways. Any one way isn't better than any other, although I do think it's most accessible to the common man through entheogens.
silverbackman 3 years ago
I guess what I'm trying to get at is... what do you mean when you say "mystical experience" and what lends more credit to such an experience than any other kind of experience?
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
I'm not saying mystical experience is necessarily superior to other experiences, but it is a rare experience that in my opinion should be experienced to find the bigger picture. A mystical experience can be defined as any sort of experience within a higher state of consciousness where one discovers a higher order to things, or the world seen in a different way, though there are many other ways to define it. Any such unusual experience in my opinion is valid.
silverbackman 3 years ago
Okay... let me try this again, because I don't think I've been clear with the point I'm trying to get at... How do you validate such an experience as a "higher" state of consciousness? How do you know that such an experience represents truth? I'm not saying it doesn't, by the way. What I'm saying is that knowing truth requires more proof than experience, otherwise there's no reason to doubt the claims of schizophrenics, for example.
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
But maybe you're not suggesting that such a state of consciousness is the truth. Perhaps having such an experience simply results in a great benefit of some sort... for instance, perhaps, those that experience such a state become more peaceful and caring human beings. Nonetheless, you seemed to be making a truth statement by asserting that such mystical experiences are "higher" states of consciousness that express a "higher order" and "bigger picture." Thoughts?
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
Well yeah, sort of. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one consciousness is better than the other. But rather, to understand the bigger picture one should experience. Because existing as an independent island of consciousness in a bag skin is ultimately counter-intuitive and leads to an a egoic alienation that ultimately leads to the destruction of nature instead of intelligent cooperation. Any sort of experience is important, but the mystical experience is a state often not met with.
silverbackman 3 years ago
Okay, sure. But you said yourself, "...to understand the bigger picture." What bigger picture? How do you know this "bigger picture" is accurate? It cannot be considered accurate just because you experienced it. "Existing as an independent island of consciousness in a bag of skin" as you put it, is actually rather difficult to achieve, as people constantly exchange information (sharing consciousness) with each other. You and I are doing it right now.
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
Of course, each of us IS limited to one brain and one body and thus our conscious experience is always restricted to some extent. I cannot ever fully know what it is like to BE someone else. Although the "mystical state" may or may not often be achieved, I do not think it is at all necessary for the development of the enlightenment you are hinting at. I think, perhaps, it may be an enriching experience and may solidify such enlightenment, but I do not think it is required...
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
I can be conscious that the earth is round, and behave accordingly, without experiencing it's roundness. See what I'm saying? Rationality and empiricism play a big part in this whole thing as well.
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
Yeah I see what your saying.I'm not saying we go down one sort of path,such as abandoning rationalism for experience only and vice versa.Everything in moderation I would say.I think though that often times we go too much into the rational and not devote enough time to what is experienced.Ofcourse empiricism is itself a form of experience.You can't make scientific predictions before experiencing the scientific truths,as the experimentalists do(ie seeing the background radiation for the big bang).
silverbackman 3 years ago
Totally. Empiricism is absoutely based on experience, but it is experience that must prove reproduceable and predictive.
mmcplaid2086 3 years ago
John Horgan contrasts these Two in his book Rational Mysticism; Wilber Bothers Him, whereas Mckenna Doesn't; He feels wilber is Being Humble in an Arrogant Way(a cultivated humility). Horgan was a former Editor for Scientific American
GodMechanism 3 years ago
we have somethng in common lit red lit rock:)
danbit5 4 years ago
you are on the moon
Mattes50A05 4 years ago
I don't know who these guys are you are talking about but you gave me a clear picture of how you see them; I believe you were, if not totality objective, then enough that I couldn't determine which one you leaned towards. I know that Wiburn, I believe you called him, impressed you because of the fact that he was able to hold his mind together under the influence of conscious altering drugs and still be able to relate his thoughts but I believe you equal him in your ability to think clearly.
tmac7425 4 years ago
Thank you for summing up their philosophies, I know that I navigate through both. Once, I discovered "the other side" this side began to make more sense. Thank you for letting me see myself in your thoughts.
tmac7425 4 years ago
Interesting, I've never heard of Ken Wilber, going to check him out
GeraldP1983 4 years ago
it is always a personal proces they just tell about theirs and there is a lot to relate to but never the same (or you must be a copycat) maybe if people focus on their own proces en be open for it instead of comparing others
yzindel 4 years ago
some thoughts: you are spot on about Wilbur. McKenna? I wasn't happy with his 'heroic dose'. Anmd tripping in his head. thats a kind of psychedelic rational :). i feel shrooms are for partcipation WITH Nature!
Now background...trippy hair dude hehe. did you know that that picture of the Earth from space is phny and the astronauts were caught fakin it?? see the fuzzy laine between dark and light.
zezt 4 years ago
Please tell me you're joking about the astronauts "fakin" the picture from space? We didn't really go to the Moon?
StevenErnest 4 years ago
No I am not joking. I have a very long intensive DVD claiming to expose the moon landings as false.
They were caught making Earth seem to be from a distance and half shade half light by a crude process. NOW do you believe me...?
zezt 4 years ago
Those "fake" Moon landing theories are utter and complete nonsense. People around the world with amateur short wave radios were even able to hear the astronauts' Moon broadcasts. Yes, humanity did go to the Moon, get over it!
StevenErnest 4 years ago
have you seen the DVD I have spoken of?
zezt 4 years ago
I don't know if I've seen that specific DVD -- you fail to even name it -- but I have read and heard a lot of these various "fake Moon landing" theories. All nonsense.
StevenErnest 4 years ago
I hope none of this is from the work of Richard Hoagland, who has these silly theories.
Please look up on Google, etc., for the responses by Scientists and researchers to these various theories -- every strange or suspicious item has a reasonable explanation.
StevenErnest 4 years ago
Ok this is the scene: you ait seen the video your criticizing. you dont even know its name. Now how can you say its falsw when you aint even seen it?
Also...i am willing to take your best shot. tell me THE best rebuttal website source that proves moonlandings were real?
zezt 4 years ago