@TheKingslayer The assembly line employee, or whatever job that was so simple a machine could do it, has 3 options. Put whatever money he may have saved into getting a higher education and work either a job of the same calibur as his last, or one of lower means while he gets this better education, go find a job of the same calibur (not as hard as it sounds) and continue on, or find out how to fix the machines that took his job and get a job repairing them.
(Continued comment) Technological*. And as for illegal immigrants stealing jobs. That is just the lazy and uneducated way of saying "Yup, thats why I don't have a job, I'll stand by that." But in reallity, the only jobs the illegal immigrants are taking, are the jobs we don't want and wont work anyways. Most Americans are too proud to be a janitor, or a construction worker, or a landscaper. But they are more than happy to be the superior of the people working those necessary jobs.
Finally some one is bringing up the point about technological innovation. For example, when a machine is created to assemble cars, or whatever it was built to assemble, this may cost assembly workers that particular job, but at the same time, we need someone who is specialized in repairing that particular piece of machinery and there are now sales jobs created to sell this technology to other businesses and jobs created for engineering those machines. Technologic innovation actual increases jobs
Everyone has a Right to move anywhere the please, "immigration" is not "green card or deport" immigration is called live here, work, file notice of intent to become a Citizen, be citizen-ly for 5 years, then refile satisfactory compliance with Laws and obtain Citizenship. How does any newfag like oldapples?
We still need gov to protect ourselves--and migrant workers--from unscrupulous business men. That is what history has taught us....and any other assertion is theoretical nonsense.
@jaybb789 Even if that's true and i severely doubt it, personally, jobs would return here if it were more economical to do so. Your argument really doesn't make any sense, if it's expensive to produce over there because of fuel costs, it obviously can't be cheaper to produce over here or they would in fact be over here. That's why they went there in the first place, to save money on cheap labor. If it were cheaper here they would produce here.
yes the fault should be on the employers, but in north east georgia they hire them in skilled trades, hvac is a skilled trade that people go to school to learn, but illegals take those jobs too, and get the same pay.Have seen this for myself!
Why is this TRAITOR trying to insult our intelligence? Utterly ridiculous saying illegals don't steal jobs from Americans. Did a bunch of illegals give this a thumbs up, or are they all traitors too? DISGUSTING!
firts: it called ILLEGALimmigrants! means every job the do is also a ILLEGAL act i would say.
than realman makes sonme valid points in his videoresponds.
the main point of the immigrant problem arent the slavejobs...rather than they destroy the social system ! wich means they helping to destroy the middleclass wich is the mainmotor of the economy !
There are only so many jobs. These people are not creating jobs, and they are sending most of their money back to their families in Mexico, so they are not even spending it on consumer goods. You can not have an endless supply of cheap labor and not get poor results.
@ExposeZionistCrimes Only so many? How many would you say, and what does it depend on?
You make these statements on these people's behavior with full confidence (like how much they spend, and how much they send back) based on what? Sounds like anti immigrant propaganda one would find watching Lou Dobbs. Also, can you explain to me why it's a problem if they send money to another country. Cause that just sounds like anti-trade rhetoric about keeping our money within borders.
@Antitheist98 The creation of jobs takes entrepreneur minded people, inventions or new ideas, along with hard work and money. These people do not have that. If they did Mexico wouldn't be a 3rd world country.
"Remittances are Mexico’s second largest legal source of foreign income, with oil exporting being first. For years, remittances have contributed significantly to Mexico’s growing economy. Annual remittances almost tripled from US $9 billion in 2001 to upwards of US $24 billion in 2007"
@ExposeZionistCrimes Invention of jobs takes investment of capital and labor. More people means that there are more needs to satisfy, therefore more jobs. Your conclusion that Mexicans are simply not entrepreneurial or hardworking is ridiculous. It's not necessary for new jobs to actually be created by immigrants (some would be). Any entrepreneur could start a firm and make use of additional labor.
Explain again why remittances are bad. Yes,Mexico benefits, but does that mean US loses?
@Antitheist98 I should explain to you why sending billions of dollars out of the country instead of spending it on consumer goods is bad? Really?
Import poverty and you get poverty. Do you really think importing 15 million uneducated Mexicans makes the US a better place?
Why do you dislike Americans so much? There is about 10% unemployment in this country right now, but you are fighting for the rights of illegals and foreigners? Why not stick up for the rights of citizens?
@ExposeZionistCrimes Maybe you should explain why international trade is bad, since it also sends billions, or trillions to other countries, instead of spending it here on consumer goods.
Also, 45% of Mexico's imports are from US and Canada. That's them sending that money right back to us, although it's silly to worry about paper going across borders and ignoring goods and services. You're counting $30B going back to Mexico, but not counting the value of additional labor coming into US.
@Antitheist98 The value of people sweeping floors and picking fruit while having 4 children in the taxpayer funded public education system and also using government housing,medical,and food stamp services?
"American taxpayers are shelling out $113 billion a year because of illegal immigration, according to a study from the Federation for American Immigration.The report estimated that illegal aliens pay $13 billion in taxes a year, resulting in a net cost to taxpayers of about $100 billion."
@ExposeZionistCrimes "while having 4 children.....using government housing, medicaid, food stamps" where do you get this crap? Is living this way part of definition of illegal immigrant? They DO NOT QUALIFY FOR WELFARE, by definition. They are not overrepresented among welfare recipients.
FAIR is an anti immigrant organization. While there is a deficit between taxes they pay, and services they receive, it's only about $25 B. That's .5% of government spending in a given year.
@ExposeZionistCrimes The solution to this deficit is not to keep all Mexicans out, but to make it legal for them to pay taxes. End this ridiculous prohibition on hiring foreigners. And even though they don't use welfare at rates any higher than you or I, if it makes you feel better, make it harder to get welfare for immigrants.
Their labor has higher value then remittances. It's not like they're sending our money. They had to earn it first. And you still haven't explained why this is bad
@Antitheist98 The solution is to treat them the same way Mexico treats its illegal invaders. If you want to live in a country overrun with Mexicans, and run by Mexicans, move to Mexico. Even they do not want to live around their own kind. The worst thing whitey could do would be to deport them and force them to.
@ExposeZionistCrimes I'm not sure why this video attracted blatant racists such as yourself and OurWhitevoices. You think you're fighting Marxism, but you have no clue what capitalism actually means so you go on spewing one fallacy after another, proposing the same policies (anti trade, anti free market, protectionism, nationalism) that has people leaving Mexico by the millions.
How Mexico treats their immigrants is irrelevant. What are we trying to do, show the other who's more backward?
@Antitheist98 Nonwhites leave their countries to come enjoy the higher standards of living that come with living in European societies. Democrat vs Republican and Capitalism vs Marxism is a false battle. The debate is about if whites have the right to their own homeland and to protect it, or if they do not, and should have them flooded with tens of millions of non Europeans, and be bred out of existence. That is also known as genocide? So are you pro white or pro white genocide?
@ExposeZionistCrimes That is not the definition of genocide, and thats a false dichotomy.
If your concern is changing racial demographics of this country then say so upfront instead of trying to disguise it with pseudo economic arguments. That's known as lying.
And the conflict really is between individualism and collectivism, or capitalism and Marxism, if you prefer. You're sounding more like a nazi with every post, so there's no point in trying to reason with you.
@Antitheist98 Actually it is, go look up the 1948 UN Resolution on genocide. Most of the Amerindians were destroyed through race mixing, resulting in the people now known as mestizos. And I already told you there are plenty of reasons, economic is a huge one, but so is the genetic one. Why should we want uneducated people here who are more likely to be on welfare and more likely to drop out of high school and commit violence?
@ExposeZionistCrimes I love it when people talk about how it's bad to let in low skilled immigrants from poor countries. Who do you think your ancestors were? Do you think Europeans that came in the last 200 years were college educated high skilled workers? Every garbage of an argument you propose has been used against the the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, Eastern Europeans (non of whom were considered white), and now Mexicans
Like I said. No point of trying to reason with you so good bye
@Antitheist98 They came here and BUILT this country. They did not come here and sweep floors. They did not come here and live off taxpayer welfare services. I can go find a teenager or homeless person that could replace them. If they were capable of building anything, they would have built their own countries into a place worth living in.
@ExposeZionistCrimes "If they were capable of building anything, they would have built their own countries into a place worth living in. "
Oversimplication will get you nowhere fast. You are not addressing the government or elite structures that have a vested interest in behavior modification, etc. Nor are you addressing the common knowledge that "uneducated" people are easily manipulated and are cash cows for big business. Good job Antitheist98 for exposing EZC!
@EuphoricImpact These people may be capable of many legal, productive things...you do not know and can only spectulate they are not. How about bitching about something that matters instead of promoting your politics. If you are concern about this how about...
The political parties that are elated at the thought of all those new, potential voters. In many area they are already seeing benefits. Especially where minimal verification is needed to cast a ballot. Why not? Some are not
@EuphoricImpact strangers to breaking the law and may even feel this is one of their 'rights'. House of La Raza Rep. Luis Gutierrez held 'voter registration clinics'. This should make anyone suspicious.
The problem is Illegal immigrants are abusing our system, schools, hospital, welfare and NOT paying for it. That is the reason we don't want illegals in our country. If they come here and become legal, pay taxes, learn English, learn the Constitution then I could accept that.
Jacob I think your missing the bigger picture here.
If I criticize the govt and the majority does not agree with me, much would not change in my favor.
If I can change the majority with people that are like us "pay taxes" to see things differently and force our reps to change or inforce the laws then It would matter to criticize my fellow American.
Every country should have own borders and decide what emigrants they want. Every country should take care of own citizens and not like Mexico, where Elite cares only for themselfs. But Illuminati, Zionists, working on braking borders and make all nation equal - poor. They also working on depopulation of 80% and rest will be chipped slaves for Elite.
I don't think immigrants are stealing jobs because a worker doesn't "own" his job in the first place-- it's just a relationship with his employer. However I do not see how unskilled laborers will get more skilled work or higher wages if immigrants replace them.
I'm a libertarian and I think that all libertarians should be for open borders, or at least more open than they are now. Illegal immigrants are living more of a Free Market lifestyle than Americans are. They don't have to pay taxes, they can work below minimum wage, they don't apply for government documents, some of them sell drugs, weapons, and other banned stuff, they come and go wherever they like. If you like the Free Market, we should be more like them than making them more like us.
Reading some of your comments... I never liked you free marketeer guys but I sincerely never thought you can be so close to fascism and some of you are openly fascist but just don't get it yet. It is really, really sad.
@organdva No, that's not the same logic. It's more equivalent to removing an arbitrary price fix or monopoly and allowing the price to settle naturally in the way that it should. If there is a state protected cartel on milk producers and not much competition in the market, you can argue that it's good to free the market and increase competition so milk prices will drop.
@dvide So logically it would be best if milk prices were at zero? Normatively yes, obviously if it settled at zero due to some magical production method. If we could wave our magic wands and create milk from thin air it would be awesome. But that's not the case. But if we just arbitrary set it to zero as a central planner it would be very bad because nobody would have any incentive to produce it. Milk price would not settle at zero; it would settle at the most efficient point. Same with wages.
I'm not against democracy necessarily. I'm against policies that would make a functional democracy probematic, such as introducing a large group of people who want to vote themselves shares of other people's wealth. I think democracy can work fine in a relatively homogenous society that avoids having a permanent overclass or underclass. But if you have one distinct group of people that's going to pay the costs of public programs, and other distinct groups that reap the benefits, there..
Sorry, I didn't understand. What determines the price of labor? Jacob Spinney made argument that cheap immigrant labor is good for the economy. I just fallow that to the end - free labor is the best for the economy. It is kinda argument for colonization, imperialism, slavery and fascism, don't you think?
@organdva Umm no, since when is "free" labor slavery? I think you are missing the concept of what he is proposing, aside from this "illegal" issue. You just described an array of command economies.
Do you think Fascists were agitating for zero wages? Despite what your leftist teachers taught you - economic fascism revolves around tri-partite agreements - Govt, Business and .... wait for it.... LABOR UNIONS!
Fascism - Everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing above the state.
Free market - Nothing for the state, everything outside the state, everything beyond the state.
If you don't get that... you wont get much of anything else.
That's a great comparison. Socialists always viewing advancements in technology as an attack on the worker. It's insanity.
Just thinking about the phrase, "they're stealing our jobs." It makes no sense. Nobody owns their job. So if your employer hires someone else in place of you, it's not stealing.
& as you've pointed out, jobs do not last forever. If they did, we'd be living like cave men.
I think you're missing out an important thing, which although it doesn't make you wrong, is very important to include - time. People don't want to get fired from their job because it means that for some period they are not unemployed. If someone gets replaced by cheaper labor or machines they can't instantly go and get the higher paying job you talk about because it doesn't exist yet.
This is what leads to the negative sentiment towards illegal immigration.
how illegal migrants increase unemployment : illegal immgratnts increase the labour supply. Thus the supply cure of labour shifts right. This decreases the real wage. Lets say from USD 10 to USD 7. There will be people whose opportunity cost of working is greater then USD 7. Hence there will be some people will think that it will be better to stay on welfare and not work.
There are econometrics out there for this. 100 times could easily be true! It is hard to measure because technology changes jobs fundamentally. Do keep in mind that the last century was a century of massive wars, inflation and destruction which has a severe retarding effect on development of capital/tools/technology.
@dvide 100x seems too much. If people could sustain themselves with a house and food and clothing 100 years ago, then 100x that income would look a lot nicer than what the average person has today. Of course I know the government has destroyed toys of wealth, but I doubt its managed to destroy that much.
@davyjames I dunno. I think 100x is probably quite a conservative number. Consider the history of the ford assembly line for mass production and advances in agriculture and all of that sort of thing.
@dvide Car prices have probably come down a lot but I doubt 100x Food, housing, electricity, oil etc... I couldn't say... can't see it being close to 100x
Government's big but I don't think it's *that* big.
@davyjames Prices wouldn't necessarily drop 100x if there is 100x more production. The cars themselves are probably over 100x better vehicles themselves too. It's like computer prices don't drop in the stores because better computers are sold instead. And obviously government causes prices to stay artificially high with inflation and regulations. I would say a modern car factory surely must churn out at least 100x more wealth (in the form of more cars and better cars) than a team of craftsmen.
Furthermore in order to say that Illegal Immigrants steal jobs you would have to say that being born in a country automatically grants you ownership over every business there, as people who hold this position say "They're stealing our jobs" as if the job belongs to them before they have even applied for it.
Which is ironic as it's mostly people on the right who advocate this and what their advocating is pretty much job communism :)
Your position is based on the illegal immigrants remaining as illegal immigrants and thus not being able to demand higher wages for working. If they would be granted amnesty, they would have the protection of minimum wage and other labor laws. The benefit of those illegal workers would be taken away from the market and THAT would take away jobs, even in your view.
@JacobSpinney Illegal immigrants are not screened and vaccinated for contagious diseases (Hepatitis A-E, TB, etc.) when they enter, and many of them work in the food industry. In some foreign countries, the rate of TB is 150 times greater than the U.S. Treating a single case of MDR-TB costs between $250,000 and $1,200,000 per person. 84% of those with MDR-TB were foreign-born patients, mainly from Mexico.
Please watch "Dr. Madeline Cosman - Illegal Aliens and Tuberculosis":
@JacobSpinney You can, however, argue that minimum wage and labor laws should be exclusive to American Citizens, which serves an an incentive that, if you wanna work here, you should become a citizen, as it provides a much more positive enviornment for you.
Yes the amnesty would make it much worse if they were made legal because of entitlements and voting as well as a whole host of other problems. However, the illegals and legals both have political ideologues that support welfare and min wage on the aggregate more than most other segments of the population. Their other positions are terrible as well. More immigrants are a large part of the problem, not matter the phrase "attack the welfare state, not the immigrants"
This would all be true, except that immigrants tend to come from low IQ populations. You can't claim their input to society will be comparable to the existing citizens.
What if America allowed 300 million Australian Aborigines (if they existed) to settle? Would quality of life and productivity double? No it would not, because Aborigines are primitive and have limited potential at a first world way of life.
Are you suggesting deporting low IQ people who currently are US citizens? If not, then you are not serious about a high-IQ society. IQ tests have been shown to be terribly unreliable for measuring the smartness of people. IQs are not "proven" to be cause of productivity. A lot of "high IQ" people are exact opposites of libertarians.
But, IA has chosen to ignore all these things, and has admitted to resorting to anti-libertarian means to further libertarian goals.
You're just wrong here. Illegal immigrants are blatantly breaking our laws and indeed taking jobs from the rest of us. Meg Whitman's housekeeper was making $23/hr. and played the victim later because she was let go when it was discovered she was here illegally...helped Jerry Brown win for governor in Calif. ...$23/hour for housework! Mexico enforces their immigration laws without mercy, and so does every other nation, except for the weak-willed idiot nations which are thereby being destroyed.
@1221solstice2012 The economy of nations that are "weak willed" is doing way better than the economy of nations that enforces their immigration laws mercilessly.
@Mastikator False. Best growing economy 2010: Qatar, and they enforce immigration laws and monitor everyone entering: qatarliving. com/node/17904 (delete space) The other growing economies are: Botswana 14.4% Azerbaijan 12.3 Republic of Congo 11.9 Angola 9.3 East Timor 7.87 Liberia 7.53 China 7.51 Afghanistan 7.01 Uzbekistan 7.00 Turkmenistan 6.96 Iraq 6.69% I doubt you’ll find one that sanctions illegal immigrants. We need to enforce our laws and protect citizens' security, or we will fail.
@darrin1999 And that's exactly what they're doing, while we're going down, kicked there by socialist "equalization" programs, tyrannical labor unions, and illegal immigration. Take a look at the real Los Angeles now in this youtube vid, not the LA portrayed in Hollywood movies:
Undercover Investigation: Illegal Animal Sales Los Angeles
Where does California go from here? col (c for cry)
@1221solstice2012 americans don't want to get dirty working. Illegal immigrants are willing to work the jobs that americans don't, and for less too. That's proof enough in itself. 23 dollars an hour, why didn't a legal american get that job? Because probably, no american wanted the job. The government has fooled people into thinking that being an intellectual will make you rich. In Mexico, across the border I can see shoe shiners in the public plaza, in the US none.
@SamuelMoralesJr That's a blanket racist statement. There are also LEGAL immigrants and American citizens who do housework and janitorial work for business and such, and others willing to do the work but the vast majority of those jobs are taken by non-citizens, as well as many other good jobs which are needed by our legal citizens and especially young people, non-college bound, and many kids in black communities are being pushed out of all the decent jobs by illegal immigrants.
@1221solstice2012 not a racist statement, just an observation. Many kids are being pushed out of jobs because of minimum wage period, not just black kids. It's the laws, regulations, rules, that make illegals look attractive, not just that, illegal aliens do jobs that Americans don't want to do. You obviously believe that jobs is a scarce resource that can only be reduced, not created. You also said a illegal alien got a 23/hour housing cleaning job, question is, why didn't a american get it?
@SamuelMoralesJr The point about illegal immigrant Nikki was that she was whining & crying about her job for Meg Whitman, when she had forged documents & committed crimes and was working in this country illegally, making more than many citizens do, for housework, and used her phony "abused" status to help a liberal democrat (Brown) become governor of California. An American didn't get it because the agency sent Nikki to Whitman's house. Mexico enforces its immigration laws...so should we.
@1221solstice2012 many people that are illegal, or who are here because their parents immigrated here are actually hired by government services like humanitarian health providers, construction, etc. Immigration is just a scapegoat for the ills of a society especially in the context of economics. For me, I don't just believe in Americanism, I believe in humanism, and humanity as a whole. When I see construction workers, or providers, I seen nothing but hispanic, spanish speaking people.
@SamuelMoralesJr I won't go on and on about this forever, but you just made my point. Lately in my town I've actually seen black and white people doing street labor like road improvements and such, totally surprised by that, and pleasantly. Yes, our legal citizens want and will do these jobs, and we need them, especially the young people who aren't college-bound professional types. What are they supposed to do to eat and have housing, when all the ordinary jobs are taken?
@1221solstice2012, I don't believe that at all. I already told you, government hires spanish speaking people, the question is, why couldn't a legal american get it? The government simply prefers spanish speaking people who don't know english, or bilingual? I would make the logical assessment that simply legal americans don't want those type of jobs. It ain't like mexicans are unionized and barred white people from those type of jobs. As I said earlier, do you see americans shining shoes? NO!.
Please do a video on why personal safety insurance must be mandatory for an anarcho-capitalist society to work! To guard against foreign invasion and maintain law enforcement!
IndavidualAuntonomy is a libertarian but is strongly for closed borders and anti-immigration, when I said that its not a libertarian position, he replied that most immigrants particularly mexicans are typically socialists and would mean the death of the libertarian movement in America. Which I think is true also.
@CelticAlphabet IndividualAutonomy is not a libertarian. He does not believe in the NAP, self-ownership, or any other libertarian principle I can think of.
@JacobSpinney True, and there are many races in America where the majority are socialist. Black Americans are perhaps even more economically progressive then Mexican Americans and potential Mexican immigrants, so why should he not be for kicking out black people as a libertarian. Perhaps that`s a bit of a stretch, but if you`re going to promote race-based policy on the fact that most people of a particular race have differing political preferences, it`s a slippery-ass slope.
@CelticAlphabet IA is not a libertarian because: he is for a huge military policing the world, a Racist, and he just might want to force Social conservatism down our throat.
That means IndividualAutonomy is no longer a libertarian. Here are the things Individualautonomy cannot accept, but are true.
Libertarian movement is currently quite insignificant to be of any consequence.
A huge portion of the more gloriously libertarian theorists like Murray Rothbard, Hans Hermann Hoppe etc. are either themselves/ or were decendants of socialists/communists who had immigrated to the United states.
Current societies work only because of the governments' forced taxation!
Anarcho-capitalism is a very nice idea but it seems like it can't work because of the free rider problem. Unless personal safety insurance is made mandatory!
@rebelq1 This makes no sense to me. So people are too ignorant and retarded to realize if they don't buy insurance, they'll be invaded . . . but they are smart enough to elect the right people into the government?
I can understand people's frustration with the illegal immigrant thing. Illegals come here in large droves and the population increase is not steady. Putting government programs and welfare aside, in the long run, illegals improve our economy by providing cheap labor. However, in short run, it leaves people frustrated that unemployment is noticeably high due to a shockingly large influx of illegal immigrants. Of course, it will take time for businesses to keep up with the waves of migrants.
You're right, illegals aren't stealing our jobs, our Government is responsible for crushing innovation and investment with high taxes and over regulation as well as inflation. That is where the real problem lies.
Jacob, I'll have to disagree with you here. The illegals allow employers to pay a slave wage that most Americans will not work for. I don't blame Americans for not working for slave wages. If the illegals were not here, employers would have to pay a fair wage. These illegals also receive benefits that only citizens should receive such as medical, schools, welfare, food stamps et al. They also send money overseas where citizens keep money here. I know of non citizens that got stimulus checks.
@JacobSpinney To a degree you are probably correct but to a degree I am as well. I don't know the exact numbers so I will say this as an example. Get rid of 10 illegals and 7 American jobs will be created. You seem to be implying that getting rid of the illegals will not produce any American jobs.
@jimbobubbadj It won't. If you get rid of the illegals, it would allow more Americans to take on the jobs that the illegals were doing. BUT the higher paying higher skilled jobs would no longer be available, since we have made the economy less efficient by being forced to pay artificially high wages to American workers.
In other words, by deporting all illegals, you will fire that number of higher paid American workers and force them into taking up the illegals previous jobs at lower wages.
Tariffs will hurt US economy. Because Tariffs in practice simulate what an enemy blockade on the domestic economy. Except that this time, the domestic victims of the blockade are required to pay for the blockade itself, which cannot be good.
Why would having less goods help us? Sure, the money goes overseas, but you can't spend a dollar in china. Every dollar you spend on an import comes right back to America in the form of foreign investment (which is much better for the economy than consumption).
If you want to lower the trade deficit while at the same time helping the economy, you should want more domestic production, not less foriegn production (hence, more immigration!)
@JacobSpinney Man your out of it. If we get rid of illegals then maybe some of these people abusing our welfare system can work for a living and stop living off the tax payers. We have millions of able workers that can do these jobs if we just stop paying them to do nothing.
Not so much that they're going to take away jobs, but the ones that actually do get a job tend to send money back to Mexico, taking it out of the local economy, though many illegal immigrants continue acting as a criminal once they're in, or even not acting at all and depending on government handouts, again taking money out of the economy, and lowering the standard of living rather than raising it.
@AreThereNoMoreNames So then we should make vacations illegal? Because of course they're not spending that money here in America. We should also make all foreign trade illegal? Because we're sending money off to foreigners?
@JacobSpinney No, I'm not saying to make exporting money illegal. Vacations are one thing, people leave to go on vacation, and they come here on vacation, and foreign trade is one form of capital for another. But when someone's receiving money for aid because they're poor, money taken from people who are working, and sending it out, they're removing monetary resources from the system, sort of an exothermic reaction where energy is removed.
@AreThereNoMoreNames What if the illegal immigrant sending all his money to a foreign family were actually a legal immigrant? Would you still want to illegalize this activity?
@AreThereNoMoreNames Then why even bring it up? If you are fine with legal immigrants doing it, then it should not be used as an argument against illegal immigrants.
if they are really libertarian, they will want no IRS, and they will want sound money, with thos two things alone, immigration loses it's value as a wedge issue.
Uh huh. I'm sure the Latinos will strongly support getting rid of welfare, and affirmative action, and goodies handed about by the government, because they'll be such principled libertarians. Oh, wait, that's about as likely as pigs crapping gold. Nevermind.
@NAARandom Actually, of the very minimal statics we have on the issue, latinos have in fact seemed to become more and more libertarian and have either already or are about to match the per capita percentage of white libertarians.
Well, yeah, if you call two data points a trend. And I would love to see you cite the data that says they're about to match the per capita percentage of white libertarians (which wouldn't matter anyway, since that would still be about 10%, and most of the ones who are not libertarians are ultra-leftists in economic terms, and are social conservatives, and are far more likely to hold both views than whites on average).
Not sure I agree on this. Maybe as a whole in the long-run jobs are actually created rather than destroyed but in the short-run the jobs which are filled by illegal immigrants suffer pay-cuts (or dont get pay rises in line with inflation) so those members of society are actually poorer. Also it assumes that people can easily reskill and find new and better employment - this is unrealistic. Hazlitt said its important to consider the short and long run effects on all groups of people.
@rjthomas23 Sure. In the short run, the native crop harvester gets underbid. But in the long run, everyone is better off. Hazlitt was all about focusing on the unseen. We can see the guy who loses his job to outsourcing, because of we released a tariff. What we don't see is all of the jobs that have been gained because of that release. Same with immigration.
I'm beginning to understand. In a perfectly free market where the economy is expanding and new jobs become readily available you are probably right - unfortunately we dont have that. Therefore illegal immigration is contributing to unemployment. Also while it might be beneficial in the long-run economically it seems immoral to allow/overlook it when so many unemployed natives are under/unemployed. I also believe it contributes to the wealth gap - but feel free to educate me.
@rjthomas23 But don't you see, this is not the fault of immigrants. This is the fault of failed government policies. The government is to blame. Not immigrants.
Yes I completely agree - its not the fault of the immigrants. They are just acting rationally. If I worked as a builder in a less privileged country and could earn 3 or 4 times my wages working overseas I would do the same. However I cannot agree that it is a good thing because of the not so short-term effects on the wages of the native builder. Fair enough if demand is increasing in the building sector an influx of migrant workers arent going to drive down the wages.
You were blocked because you consistently use condescending rhetoric, strawman arguments, and appeal to ridicule, in spite of a lot of warnings. Your argumentation is constantly nibbling around the edges at phantom arguments that no one else ever made, rather than directly addressing the points that other people make.
I just got tired of it... I'd rather discuss things with people who are not so dishonest in their methods.
@eagleeye1975 Thank you for the letting me know that I come off as condescending. I continue to try and change howI talk so that it doesn't come off that way. If I were the kind of person to give out uninvited criticism, I would say that you come off as condescending as well. Telling people that you are going to "educate" them and calling individuals "idiot," "little children," "fuckers," intentionally mocking people, and so on, are not helpful toward getting people to your position.
@eagleeye1975 I would also say that you have a bad habit of screaming fallacy even when there wasn't one. When I call you out on these supposed straw mans I commit, the most you can do is show that I might have paraphrased you instead of quoted verbatim. That is not a straw man, as I have already shown in the past. A strawman is not just a misrepresentation, but an intentional misrepresentation and attack of that misrepresentation that is invalid if applied to the argument being misrepresented.
@eagleeye1975 But I'm no saint, so I'm not in a position to be giving out uninvited advice. It seems our personalities don't mesh. So I wish you the best of luck in spreading the message of liberty.
Eagleeye I use to think you were the poster boy for hypocrisy but now I genuinely think you have cognitive dysfunctions that make you act the way you do.
illegals drain the system, leaching off of welfare checks and social programs while contributing negatively on society. they also put our schools behind, having to cater to second language students, slowing down the classroom.
and with so many people unemployed today, i'd rather an American job go to an American who contributes to a system. This isn't from the view point of a limited job market, only common sense that American citizens, or even legal immigrants, have priority over illegals.
@JacobSpinney I agree with ending welfare and social programs. However you can't really end all of them. For instance, illegals have lots of children who go to school. And illegals end up at the ER. Maybe change the policy at the ER - "sir, before we treat your gaping gunshot wound, we've got to see picture id and your insurance card". And deporting and imprisoning illegals costs money too. And don't forget all the latino gangs which have many illegals. Disease and drugs come across the border 2
@JacobSpinney Indeed, but part of the problem, nonetheless. What do you think of the other point I made? I don't have a problem with, like, a Mexican having a job, or whatever the case may be, but wouldn't it help if they were a legal citizen?
Beaverpoop. Many illegal immigrants pay into social programs financedby their own taxes even thouhgh they don't receivecd any ofthe benefits legal US received.Most americans school children are not required tolearn spainish. A person should receive a job because theywould be competent at the job or they would meet all of the qualifications pertinent for the job. Just like race and your ethnicity have nothing to do with job performance, neither does citizenship status.
I've seen numerous explanations of why illegal aliens don't make unemployment worse, and they've all been a little weird. They just say, "It frees up resources for people to work elsewhere," and that always sounded to me like it assumed full employment to begin with. But your explanation has just put the pieces together well enough that this very simple concept is now clear in my mind. Good work.
I agree. However, if there was no government regulation you would get the same affect on the economy. Well, thats what I see if you take that same logic a little further. Also, that would allow people who are less skilled to have access to the under minimum wage jobs, without fear of having force used agenst them by the government.
And lol, the US has booming job opportunities? With (official) unemployment still up near 10%, I'm not getting all that excited by the supposedly booming job opportunities.
My point was that we are not suffering from a labor shortage. And that does not address the other points (public services, welfare, crime, and voting).
@NAARandom Welfare and voting is a matter of ensuring a valid social security number. Illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes, because of the fear of deportation. tinyurl/immigrantlesscrime
And as far as public services, there should be none in the first place.
Their kids who are born here are automatically citizens and can vote. Their kids also qualify for welfare. It's the long-term (which you don't seem to be considering) that I'm concerned with here. And whether you think there should be public services doesn't change the fact that there are, and that immigrants, legal and illegal, impose costs on those services, and low-income immigrants don't pay back those costs in taxes.
But if you want to spend your time constructing ideal libertarian societies in your head that will never materialize (especially with a large Latino population voting), rather than deal with reality, go right ahead.
@NAARandom These are arguments against welfare and social programs. Not against immigration. If I steal your money and give it to person X, that is not an argument to deport person X. It is an argument for me to stop stealing your money.
What about all the construction workers who have lost their jobs to illegal immigrants!
fognog3 1 month ago
@TheKingslayer The assembly line employee, or whatever job that was so simple a machine could do it, has 3 options. Put whatever money he may have saved into getting a higher education and work either a job of the same calibur as his last, or one of lower means while he gets this better education, go find a job of the same calibur (not as hard as it sounds) and continue on, or find out how to fix the machines that took his job and get a job repairing them.
Jakethescenario 5 months ago
(Continued comment) Technological*. And as for illegal immigrants stealing jobs. That is just the lazy and uneducated way of saying "Yup, thats why I don't have a job, I'll stand by that." But in reallity, the only jobs the illegal immigrants are taking, are the jobs we don't want and wont work anyways. Most Americans are too proud to be a janitor, or a construction worker, or a landscaper. But they are more than happy to be the superior of the people working those necessary jobs.
Jakethescenario 5 months ago
Finally some one is bringing up the point about technological innovation. For example, when a machine is created to assemble cars, or whatever it was built to assemble, this may cost assembly workers that particular job, but at the same time, we need someone who is specialized in repairing that particular piece of machinery and there are now sales jobs created to sell this technology to other businesses and jobs created for engineering those machines. Technologic innovation actual increases jobs
Jakethescenario 5 months ago
A question: What if the workers (the ones who aren't keeping those jobs) are unqualified for the higher skilled jobs?
TheKingsIayer 6 months ago
They took our jobs! They took r jobs! Thy tok r jbs! Ty tk r jbs! tr tr tr tr!
jsaiz187505 6 months ago
Everyone has a Right to move anywhere the please, "immigration" is not "green card or deport" immigration is called live here, work, file notice of intent to become a Citizen, be citizen-ly for 5 years, then refile satisfactory compliance with Laws and obtain Citizenship. How does any newfag like oldapples?
mrwigiteeman 7 months ago
We still need gov to protect ourselves--and migrant workers--from unscrupulous business men. That is what history has taught us....and any other assertion is theoretical nonsense.
tstruss912 7 months ago
@jaybb789 Even if that's true and i severely doubt it, personally, jobs would return here if it were more economical to do so. Your argument really doesn't make any sense, if it's expensive to produce over there because of fuel costs, it obviously can't be cheaper to produce over here or they would in fact be over here. That's why they went there in the first place, to save money on cheap labor. If it were cheaper here they would produce here.
s0beit 8 months ago
@jaybb789 This isn't related to productivity in any way, it's more to do with government manipulation of money more recently.
s0beit 9 months ago
yes the fault should be on the employers, but in north east georgia they hire them in skilled trades, hvac is a skilled trade that people go to school to learn, but illegals take those jobs too, and get the same pay.Have seen this for myself!
1969BALLER 9 months ago
nigger
jsjustrik 1 year ago
Ignoramus.....
ESKxALLx 1 year ago
Why is this TRAITOR trying to insult our intelligence? Utterly ridiculous saying illegals don't steal jobs from Americans. Did a bunch of illegals give this a thumbs up, or are they all traitors too? DISGUSTING!
tncdel 1 year ago
firts: it called ILLEGALimmigrants! means every job the do is also a ILLEGAL act i would say.
than realman makes sonme valid points in his videoresponds.
the main point of the immigrant problem arent the slavejobs...rather than they destroy the social system ! wich means they helping to destroy the middleclass wich is the mainmotor of the economy !
infokriegerBerlin 1 year ago
There are only so many jobs. These people are not creating jobs, and they are sending most of their money back to their families in Mexico, so they are not even spending it on consumer goods. You can not have an endless supply of cheap labor and not get poor results.
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes Only so many? How many would you say, and what does it depend on?
You make these statements on these people's behavior with full confidence (like how much they spend, and how much they send back) based on what? Sounds like anti immigrant propaganda one would find watching Lou Dobbs. Also, can you explain to me why it's a problem if they send money to another country. Cause that just sounds like anti-trade rhetoric about keeping our money within borders.
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@Antitheist98 The creation of jobs takes entrepreneur minded people, inventions or new ideas, along with hard work and money. These people do not have that. If they did Mexico wouldn't be a 3rd world country.
"Remittances are Mexico’s second largest legal source of foreign income, with oil exporting being first. For years, remittances have contributed significantly to Mexico’s growing economy. Annual remittances almost tripled from US $9 billion in 2001 to upwards of US $24 billion in 2007"
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes Invention of jobs takes investment of capital and labor. More people means that there are more needs to satisfy, therefore more jobs. Your conclusion that Mexicans are simply not entrepreneurial or hardworking is ridiculous. It's not necessary for new jobs to actually be created by immigrants (some would be). Any entrepreneur could start a firm and make use of additional labor.
Explain again why remittances are bad. Yes,Mexico benefits, but does that mean US loses?
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@Antitheist98 I should explain to you why sending billions of dollars out of the country instead of spending it on consumer goods is bad? Really?
Import poverty and you get poverty. Do you really think importing 15 million uneducated Mexicans makes the US a better place?
Why do you dislike Americans so much? There is about 10% unemployment in this country right now, but you are fighting for the rights of illegals and foreigners? Why not stick up for the rights of citizens?
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes Maybe you should explain why international trade is bad, since it also sends billions, or trillions to other countries, instead of spending it here on consumer goods.
Also, 45% of Mexico's imports are from US and Canada. That's them sending that money right back to us, although it's silly to worry about paper going across borders and ignoring goods and services. You're counting $30B going back to Mexico, but not counting the value of additional labor coming into US.
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@Antitheist98 The value of people sweeping floors and picking fruit while having 4 children in the taxpayer funded public education system and also using government housing,medical,and food stamp services?
"American taxpayers are shelling out $113 billion a year because of illegal immigration, according to a study from the Federation for American Immigration.The report estimated that illegal aliens pay $13 billion in taxes a year, resulting in a net cost to taxpayers of about $100 billion."
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes "while having 4 children.....using government housing, medicaid, food stamps" where do you get this crap? Is living this way part of definition of illegal immigrant? They DO NOT QUALIFY FOR WELFARE, by definition. They are not overrepresented among welfare recipients.
FAIR is an anti immigrant organization. While there is a deficit between taxes they pay, and services they receive, it's only about $25 B. That's .5% of government spending in a given year.
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes The solution to this deficit is not to keep all Mexicans out, but to make it legal for them to pay taxes. End this ridiculous prohibition on hiring foreigners. And even though they don't use welfare at rates any higher than you or I, if it makes you feel better, make it harder to get welfare for immigrants.
Their labor has higher value then remittances. It's not like they're sending our money. They had to earn it first. And you still haven't explained why this is bad
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@Antitheist98 The solution is to treat them the same way Mexico treats its illegal invaders. If you want to live in a country overrun with Mexicans, and run by Mexicans, move to Mexico. Even they do not want to live around their own kind. The worst thing whitey could do would be to deport them and force them to.
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes I'm not sure why this video attracted blatant racists such as yourself and OurWhitevoices. You think you're fighting Marxism, but you have no clue what capitalism actually means so you go on spewing one fallacy after another, proposing the same policies (anti trade, anti free market, protectionism, nationalism) that has people leaving Mexico by the millions.
How Mexico treats their immigrants is irrelevant. What are we trying to do, show the other who's more backward?
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@Antitheist98 Nonwhites leave their countries to come enjoy the higher standards of living that come with living in European societies. Democrat vs Republican and Capitalism vs Marxism is a false battle. The debate is about if whites have the right to their own homeland and to protect it, or if they do not, and should have them flooded with tens of millions of non Europeans, and be bred out of existence. That is also known as genocide? So are you pro white or pro white genocide?
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes That is not the definition of genocide, and thats a false dichotomy.
If your concern is changing racial demographics of this country then say so upfront instead of trying to disguise it with pseudo economic arguments. That's known as lying.
And the conflict really is between individualism and collectivism, or capitalism and Marxism, if you prefer. You're sounding more like a nazi with every post, so there's no point in trying to reason with you.
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@Antitheist98 Actually it is, go look up the 1948 UN Resolution on genocide. Most of the Amerindians were destroyed through race mixing, resulting in the people now known as mestizos. And I already told you there are plenty of reasons, economic is a huge one, but so is the genetic one. Why should we want uneducated people here who are more likely to be on welfare and more likely to drop out of high school and commit violence?
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes I love it when people talk about how it's bad to let in low skilled immigrants from poor countries. Who do you think your ancestors were? Do you think Europeans that came in the last 200 years were college educated high skilled workers? Every garbage of an argument you propose has been used against the the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, Eastern Europeans (non of whom were considered white), and now Mexicans
Like I said. No point of trying to reason with you so good bye
Antitheist98 1 year ago
@Antitheist98 They came here and BUILT this country. They did not come here and sweep floors. They did not come here and live off taxpayer welfare services. I can go find a teenager or homeless person that could replace them. If they were capable of building anything, they would have built their own countries into a place worth living in.
ExposeZionistCrimes 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes "If they were capable of building anything, they would have built their own countries into a place worth living in. "
Oversimplication will get you nowhere fast. You are not addressing the government or elite structures that have a vested interest in behavior modification, etc. Nor are you addressing the common knowledge that "uneducated" people are easily manipulated and are cash cows for big business. Good job Antitheist98 for exposing EZC!
EuphoricImpact 1 year ago
@EuphoricImpact These people may be capable of many legal, productive things...you do not know and can only spectulate they are not. How about bitching about something that matters instead of promoting your politics. If you are concern about this how about...
The political parties that are elated at the thought of all those new, potential voters. In many area they are already seeing benefits. Especially where minimal verification is needed to cast a ballot. Why not? Some are not
EuphoricImpact 1 year ago
@EuphoricImpact strangers to breaking the law and may even feel this is one of their 'rights'. House of La Raza Rep. Luis Gutierrez held 'voter registration clinics'. This should make anyone suspicious.
EuphoricImpact 1 year ago
@ExposeZionistCrimes And I don't hate Americans. I dislike economic illiterates who have no idea why this is a wealthy country.
You seem to not understand that economic wealth is having goods and services you value, not jobs or pieces of paper.
Antitheist98 1 year ago
SAVE tonight... and fight the break of dawn; cooooomeee tomorrow... and tomorrow I'll be gone, SAVE tonight
This is what I think of when I hear eagle eye
donttreadonmyass 1 year ago
The problem is Illegal immigrants are abusing our system, schools, hospital, welfare and NOT paying for it. That is the reason we don't want illegals in our country. If they come here and become legal, pay taxes, learn English, learn the Constitution then I could accept that.
Jacob I think your missing the bigger picture here.
brianlugen 1 year ago
@brianlugen
I don't remember the constitution saying anything about schools, welfare, health care etc...
Don't be pissed that they don't pay like you and take a risk. Be pissed that you have to pay in the first place.
A slave should critizes his master, not other slaves for not working as hard.
Vitringur 1 year ago
@Vitringur Did I say the constitution said that?
This is not slavery.
If I criticize the govt and the majority does not agree with me, much would not change in my favor.
If I can change the majority with people that are like us "pay taxes" to see things differently and force our reps to change or inforce the laws then It would matter to criticize my fellow American.
brianlugen 1 year ago
Every country should have own borders and decide what emigrants they want. Every country should take care of own citizens and not like Mexico, where Elite cares only for themselfs. But Illuminati, Zionists, working on braking borders and make all nation equal - poor. They also working on depopulation of 80% and rest will be chipped slaves for Elite.
eartina 1 year ago
DUKURDUR!!
WalridgeWalrus 1 year ago
I don't think immigrants are stealing jobs because a worker doesn't "own" his job in the first place-- it's just a relationship with his employer. However I do not see how unskilled laborers will get more skilled work or higher wages if immigrants replace them.
bennytheninja 1 year ago
I'm a libertarian and I think that all libertarians should be for open borders, or at least more open than they are now. Illegal immigrants are living more of a Free Market lifestyle than Americans are. They don't have to pay taxes, they can work below minimum wage, they don't apply for government documents, some of them sell drugs, weapons, and other banned stuff, they come and go wherever they like. If you like the Free Market, we should be more like them than making them more like us.
bracomadar 1 year ago
Reading some of your comments... I never liked you free marketeer guys but I sincerely never thought you can be so close to fascism and some of you are openly fascist but just don't get it yet. It is really, really sad.
organdva 1 year ago
@organdva straw-man
BIackOp 1 year ago
By your logic it is in worker interest to work for zero wage. By that worker will reduce prices and will be able to buy a lot more stuff.
organdva 1 year ago
@organdva No, that's not the same logic. It's more equivalent to removing an arbitrary price fix or monopoly and allowing the price to settle naturally in the way that it should. If there is a state protected cartel on milk producers and not much competition in the market, you can argue that it's good to free the market and increase competition so milk prices will drop.
dvide 1 year ago
@dvide So logically it would be best if milk prices were at zero? Normatively yes, obviously if it settled at zero due to some magical production method. If we could wave our magic wands and create milk from thin air it would be awesome. But that's not the case. But if we just arbitrary set it to zero as a central planner it would be very bad because nobody would have any incentive to produce it. Milk price would not settle at zero; it would settle at the most efficient point. Same with wages.
dvide 1 year ago
@dvide
I'm not against democracy necessarily. I'm against policies that would make a functional democracy probematic, such as introducing a large group of people who want to vote themselves shares of other people's wealth. I think democracy can work fine in a relatively homogenous society that avoids having a permanent overclass or underclass. But if you have one distinct group of people that's going to pay the costs of public programs, and other distinct groups that reap the benefits, there..
NAARandom 1 year ago
@dvide
...are going to be severe problems.
NAARandom 1 year ago
@dvide
Sorry, I didn't understand. What determines the price of labor? Jacob Spinney made argument that cheap immigrant labor is good for the economy. I just fallow that to the end - free labor is the best for the economy. It is kinda argument for colonization, imperialism, slavery and fascism, don't you think?
organdva 1 year ago
@organdva Umm no, since when is "free" labor slavery? I think you are missing the concept of what he is proposing, aside from this "illegal" issue. You just described an array of command economies.
BIackOp 1 year ago
@organdva
Do you think Fascists were agitating for zero wages? Despite what your leftist teachers taught you - economic fascism revolves around tri-partite agreements - Govt, Business and .... wait for it.... LABOR UNIONS!
Fascism - Everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing above the state.
Free market - Nothing for the state, everything outside the state, everything beyond the state.
If you don't get that... you wont get much of anything else.
utubehayter 1 year ago
YEs!
I use the zero sum arguement too, and I get blank looks.
darkwhitedirewolf 1 year ago
That's a great comparison. Socialists always viewing advancements in technology as an attack on the worker. It's insanity.
Just thinking about the phrase, "they're stealing our jobs." It makes no sense. Nobody owns their job. So if your employer hires someone else in place of you, it's not stealing.
& as you've pointed out, jobs do not last forever. If they did, we'd be living like cave men.
truthadvocate 1 year ago
I think you're missing out an important thing, which although it doesn't make you wrong, is very important to include - time. People don't want to get fired from their job because it means that for some period they are not unemployed. If someone gets replaced by cheaper labor or machines they can't instantly go and get the higher paying job you talk about because it doesn't exist yet.
This is what leads to the negative sentiment towards illegal immigration.
sharperguy 1 year ago
how illegal migrants increase unemployment : illegal immgratnts increase the labour supply. Thus the supply cure of labour shifts right. This decreases the real wage. Lets say from USD 10 to USD 7. There will be people whose opportunity cost of working is greater then USD 7. Hence there will be some people will think that it will be better to stay on welfare and not work.
JulianThePhilosopher 1 year ago
I highly doubt workers today can create 100 times more wealth than 100 years ago.
davyjames 1 year ago
@davyjames
There are econometrics out there for this. 100 times could easily be true! It is hard to measure because technology changes jobs fundamentally. Do keep in mind that the last century was a century of massive wars, inflation and destruction which has a severe retarding effect on development of capital/tools/technology.
utubehayter 1 year ago
@davyjames poor people are obese, nuf said.
evilsceptic 1 year ago
@davyjames Why not man?
dvide 1 year ago
@dvide 100x seems too much. If people could sustain themselves with a house and food and clothing 100 years ago, then 100x that income would look a lot nicer than what the average person has today. Of course I know the government has destroyed toys of wealth, but I doubt its managed to destroy that much.
davyjames 1 year ago
@davyjames I dunno. I think 100x is probably quite a conservative number. Consider the history of the ford assembly line for mass production and advances in agriculture and all of that sort of thing.
dvide 1 year ago
@dvide Car prices have probably come down a lot but I doubt 100x Food, housing, electricity, oil etc... I couldn't say... can't see it being close to 100x
Government's big but I don't think it's *that* big.
davyjames 1 year ago
@davyjames Prices wouldn't necessarily drop 100x if there is 100x more production. The cars themselves are probably over 100x better vehicles themselves too. It's like computer prices don't drop in the stores because better computers are sold instead. And obviously government causes prices to stay artificially high with inflation and regulations. I would say a modern car factory surely must churn out at least 100x more wealth (in the form of more cars and better cars) than a team of craftsmen.
dvide 1 year ago
Furthermore in order to say that Illegal Immigrants steal jobs you would have to say that being born in a country automatically grants you ownership over every business there, as people who hold this position say "They're stealing our jobs" as if the job belongs to them before they have even applied for it.
Which is ironic as it's mostly people on the right who advocate this and what their advocating is pretty much job communism :)
JakkaLakkaDingDing 1 year ago
Your position is based on the illegal immigrants remaining as illegal immigrants and thus not being able to demand higher wages for working. If they would be granted amnesty, they would have the protection of minimum wage and other labor laws. The benefit of those illegal workers would be taken away from the market and THAT would take away jobs, even in your view.
steelprism 1 year ago
@steelprism Yes, which is an argument to take away the minimum wage and labor laws. Not take away the immigrants.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 7
@JacobSpinney What do you think about the Fair tax vs the Flat tax.
asleeperj 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@JacobSpinney Illegal immigrants are not screened and vaccinated for contagious diseases (Hepatitis A-E, TB, etc.) when they enter, and many of them work in the food industry. In some foreign countries, the rate of TB is 150 times greater than the U.S. Treating a single case of MDR-TB costs between $250,000 and $1,200,000 per person. 84% of those with MDR-TB were foreign-born patients, mainly from Mexico.
Please watch "Dr. Madeline Cosman - Illegal Aliens and Tuberculosis":
/watch?v=_ahEhcVW7oQ
TranCendenZ 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney You can, however, argue that minimum wage and labor laws should be exclusive to American Citizens, which serves an an incentive that, if you wanna work here, you should become a citizen, as it provides a much more positive enviornment for you.
BigLundi 1 year ago
@steelprism
Yes the amnesty would make it much worse if they were made legal because of entitlements and voting as well as a whole host of other problems. However, the illegals and legals both have political ideologues that support welfare and min wage on the aggregate more than most other segments of the population. Their other positions are terrible as well. More immigrants are a large part of the problem, not matter the phrase "attack the welfare state, not the immigrants"
IndividualAutonomy 1 year ago
This would all be true, except that immigrants tend to come from low IQ populations. You can't claim their input to society will be comparable to the existing citizens.
What if America allowed 300 million Australian Aborigines (if they existed) to settle? Would quality of life and productivity double? No it would not, because Aborigines are primitive and have limited potential at a first world way of life.
njedinjedi 1 year ago
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@njedinjedi
Are you suggesting deporting low IQ people who currently are US citizens? If not, then you are not serious about a high-IQ society. IQ tests have been shown to be terribly unreliable for measuring the smartness of people. IQs are not "proven" to be cause of productivity. A lot of "high IQ" people are exact opposites of libertarians.
But, IA has chosen to ignore all these things, and has admitted to resorting to anti-libertarian means to further libertarian goals.
utubehayter 1 year ago
You're just wrong here. Illegal immigrants are blatantly breaking our laws and indeed taking jobs from the rest of us. Meg Whitman's housekeeper was making $23/hr. and played the victim later because she was let go when it was discovered she was here illegally...helped Jerry Brown win for governor in Calif. ...$23/hour for housework! Mexico enforces their immigration laws without mercy, and so does every other nation, except for the weak-willed idiot nations which are thereby being destroyed.
1221solstice2012 1 year ago
@1221solstice2012 The economy of nations that are "weak willed" is doing way better than the economy of nations that enforces their immigration laws mercilessly.
Mastikator 1 year ago 2
1221solstice2012 1 year ago
@1221solstice2012 but look at their current standards... from where those countries are now theres nowhere to go but up, lol
darrin1999 1 year ago
@darrin1999 And that's exactly what they're doing, while we're going down, kicked there by socialist "equalization" programs, tyrannical labor unions, and illegal immigration. Take a look at the real Los Angeles now in this youtube vid, not the LA portrayed in Hollywood movies:
Undercover Investigation: Illegal Animal Sales Los Angeles
Where does California go from here? col (c for cry)
1221solstice2012 1 year ago
@1221solstice2012 americans don't want to get dirty working. Illegal immigrants are willing to work the jobs that americans don't, and for less too. That's proof enough in itself. 23 dollars an hour, why didn't a legal american get that job? Because probably, no american wanted the job. The government has fooled people into thinking that being an intellectual will make you rich. In Mexico, across the border I can see shoe shiners in the public plaza, in the US none.
SamuelMoralesJr 1 year ago
@SamuelMoralesJr That's a blanket racist statement. There are also LEGAL immigrants and American citizens who do housework and janitorial work for business and such, and others willing to do the work but the vast majority of those jobs are taken by non-citizens, as well as many other good jobs which are needed by our legal citizens and especially young people, non-college bound, and many kids in black communities are being pushed out of all the decent jobs by illegal immigrants.
1221solstice2012 1 year ago
@1221solstice2012 not a racist statement, just an observation. Many kids are being pushed out of jobs because of minimum wage period, not just black kids. It's the laws, regulations, rules, that make illegals look attractive, not just that, illegal aliens do jobs that Americans don't want to do. You obviously believe that jobs is a scarce resource that can only be reduced, not created. You also said a illegal alien got a 23/hour housing cleaning job, question is, why didn't a american get it?
SamuelMoralesJr 1 year ago
@SamuelMoralesJr The point about illegal immigrant Nikki was that she was whining & crying about her job for Meg Whitman, when she had forged documents & committed crimes and was working in this country illegally, making more than many citizens do, for housework, and used her phony "abused" status to help a liberal democrat (Brown) become governor of California. An American didn't get it because the agency sent Nikki to Whitman's house. Mexico enforces its immigration laws...so should we.
1221solstice2012 1 year ago
@1221solstice2012 many people that are illegal, or who are here because their parents immigrated here are actually hired by government services like humanitarian health providers, construction, etc. Immigration is just a scapegoat for the ills of a society especially in the context of economics. For me, I don't just believe in Americanism, I believe in humanism, and humanity as a whole. When I see construction workers, or providers, I seen nothing but hispanic, spanish speaking people.
SamuelMoralesJr 1 year ago
@SamuelMoralesJr I won't go on and on about this forever, but you just made my point. Lately in my town I've actually seen black and white people doing street labor like road improvements and such, totally surprised by that, and pleasantly. Yes, our legal citizens want and will do these jobs, and we need them, especially the young people who aren't college-bound professional types. What are they supposed to do to eat and have housing, when all the ordinary jobs are taken?
1221solstice2012 1 year ago
@1221solstice2012, I don't believe that at all. I already told you, government hires spanish speaking people, the question is, why couldn't a legal american get it? The government simply prefers spanish speaking people who don't know english, or bilingual? I would make the logical assessment that simply legal americans don't want those type of jobs. It ain't like mexicans are unionized and barred white people from those type of jobs. As I said earlier, do you see americans shining shoes? NO!.
SamuelMoralesJr 1 year ago
@SamuelMoralesJr Please watch these two YouTube videos:
"Real Americans RUSH to get employment after a local resort gets rid of ILLEGAL Aliens!" at this link:
/watch?v=hA2kgUFrtmI
"Dr. Madeline Cosman - Illegal Aliens and Tuberculosis" at this link:
/watch?v=_ahEhcVW7oQ
TranCendenZ 1 year ago
Please do a video on why personal safety insurance must be mandatory for an anarcho-capitalist society to work! To guard against foreign invasion and maintain law enforcement!
Or do you want me to do one?
rebelq1 1 year ago
Illegal migrants do reduce the market wage though beacuse they increase the supply of labour.
JulianThePhilosopher 1 year ago
Comment removed
JulianThePhilosopher 1 year ago
IndavidualAuntonomy is a libertarian but is strongly for closed borders and anti-immigration, when I said that its not a libertarian position, he replied that most immigrants particularly mexicans are typically socialists and would mean the death of the libertarian movement in America. Which I think is true also.
CelticAlphabet 1 year ago
@CelticAlphabet IndividualAutonomy is not a libertarian. He does not believe in the NAP, self-ownership, or any other libertarian principle I can think of.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 2
@JacobSpinney True, and there are many races in America where the majority are socialist. Black Americans are perhaps even more economically progressive then Mexican Americans and potential Mexican immigrants, so why should he not be for kicking out black people as a libertarian. Perhaps that`s a bit of a stretch, but if you`re going to promote race-based policy on the fact that most people of a particular race have differing political preferences, it`s a slippery-ass slope.
AshillaBeige 1 year ago
@CelticAlphabet IA is not a libertarian because: he is for a huge military policing the world, a Racist, and he just might want to force Social conservatism down our throat.
Apptendo 1 year ago
@CelticAlphabet
That means IndividualAutonomy is no longer a libertarian. Here are the things Individualautonomy cannot accept, but are true.
Libertarian movement is currently quite insignificant to be of any consequence.
A huge portion of the more gloriously libertarian theorists like Murray Rothbard, Hans Hermann Hoppe etc. are either themselves/ or were decendants of socialists/communists who had immigrated to the United states.
utubehayter 1 year ago
Does Murray Rothbard talk about free riders in For A new Liberty?
I don't want to waste my time reading it!
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1 I'm not sure I remember or not. I know I've already addressed free riders.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney
Your video doesn't solve the free rider problem because you forgot to add
WHAT IF THE PEOPLE ARE A BUNCH OF IGNORANT RETARDS WHO DON'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING INVADED!
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1 If the people are a bunch of ignorant retards, then I can't envision ANY society working very well.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney
Current societies work only because of the governments' forced taxation!
Anarcho-capitalism is a very nice idea but it seems like it can't work because of the free rider problem. Unless personal safety insurance is made mandatory!
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1 This makes no sense to me. So people are too ignorant and retarded to realize if they don't buy insurance, they'll be invaded . . . but they are smart enough to elect the right people into the government?
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney
No, they are stupid enough to elect mobsters and stupid enough not to buy insurance!
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1
Yes
utubehayter 1 year ago
@utubehayter
Yes what?
rebelq1 1 year ago
I can understand people's frustration with the illegal immigrant thing. Illegals come here in large droves and the population increase is not steady. Putting government programs and welfare aside, in the long run, illegals improve our economy by providing cheap labor. However, in short run, it leaves people frustrated that unemployment is noticeably high due to a shockingly large influx of illegal immigrants. Of course, it will take time for businesses to keep up with the waves of migrants.
BloodiCheeseCake 1 year ago
Watch "Immigration Gumballs"
/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ
Buffalo122333 1 year ago
You're right, illegals aren't stealing our jobs, our Government is responsible for crushing innovation and investment with high taxes and over regulation as well as inflation. That is where the real problem lies.
testekleez 1 year ago
Jacob, I'll have to disagree with you here. The illegals allow employers to pay a slave wage that most Americans will not work for. I don't blame Americans for not working for slave wages. If the illegals were not here, employers would have to pay a fair wage. These illegals also receive benefits that only citizens should receive such as medical, schools, welfare, food stamps et al. They also send money overseas where citizens keep money here. I know of non citizens that got stimulus checks.
jimbobubbadj 1 year ago
@jimbobubbadj Are you aware of the zero sum fallacy you are committing?
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 4
@JacobSpinney To a degree you are probably correct but to a degree I am as well. I don't know the exact numbers so I will say this as an example. Get rid of 10 illegals and 7 American jobs will be created. You seem to be implying that getting rid of the illegals will not produce any American jobs.
jimbobubbadj 1 year ago
@jimbobubbadj It won't. If you get rid of the illegals, it would allow more Americans to take on the jobs that the illegals were doing. BUT the higher paying higher skilled jobs would no longer be available, since we have made the economy less efficient by being forced to pay artificially high wages to American workers.
In other words, by deporting all illegals, you will fire that number of higher paid American workers and force them into taking up the illegals previous jobs at lower wages.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 6
@JacobSpinney Tarriffs should be able to take care of that problem,since the USA doesn't export much anyway.
jimbobubbadj 1 year ago
@jimbobubbadj
We export a whole lot of stuff, what are you talking about? We just happen to import a lot more than than we export.
Tariffs will reduce the amount of goods in the economy, harming the economy. So no, tariffs will not fix anything
Empathica1 1 year ago
@Empathica1 Whose economy will it hurt? With the USA trade deficit it seems to me a reduction of imports would help us.
jimbobubbadj 1 year ago
@jimbobubbadj
Tariffs will hurt US economy. Because Tariffs in practice simulate what an enemy blockade on the domestic economy. Except that this time, the domestic victims of the blockade are required to pay for the blockade itself, which cannot be good.
utubehayter 1 year ago
@utubehayter That's why the USA must become a manufacturing country again.
jimbobubbadj 1 year ago
@jimbobubbadj
That is not going to happen until the dollar hegemony collapses. Why produce, when you can import things for green pieces of paper?
utubehayter 1 year ago
@utubehayter Agreed!
jimbobubbadj 1 year ago
Why would having less goods help us? Sure, the money goes overseas, but you can't spend a dollar in china. Every dollar you spend on an import comes right back to America in the form of foreign investment (which is much better for the economy than consumption).
If you want to lower the trade deficit while at the same time helping the economy, you should want more domestic production, not less foriegn production (hence, more immigration!)
Empathica1 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney Man your out of it. If we get rid of illegals then maybe some of these people abusing our welfare system can work for a living and stop living off the tax payers. We have millions of able workers that can do these jobs if we just stop paying them to do nothing.
brianlugen 1 year ago
Not so much that they're going to take away jobs, but the ones that actually do get a job tend to send money back to Mexico, taking it out of the local economy, though many illegal immigrants continue acting as a criminal once they're in, or even not acting at all and depending on government handouts, again taking money out of the economy, and lowering the standard of living rather than raising it.
AreThereNoMoreNames 1 year ago
@AreThereNoMoreNames So then we should make vacations illegal? Because of course they're not spending that money here in America. We should also make all foreign trade illegal? Because we're sending money off to foreigners?
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 2
@JacobSpinney No, I'm not saying to make exporting money illegal. Vacations are one thing, people leave to go on vacation, and they come here on vacation, and foreign trade is one form of capital for another. But when someone's receiving money for aid because they're poor, money taken from people who are working, and sending it out, they're removing monetary resources from the system, sort of an exothermic reaction where energy is removed.
AreThereNoMoreNames 1 year ago
@AreThereNoMoreNames What if the illegal immigrant sending all his money to a foreign family were actually a legal immigrant? Would you still want to illegalize this activity?
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney I never said that it should be illegal.
AreThereNoMoreNames 1 year ago
@AreThereNoMoreNames Then why even bring it up? If you are fine with legal immigrants doing it, then it should not be used as an argument against illegal immigrants.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney Nor have I said I'm fine with it, you're putting words in my mouth which simply aren't there.
AreThereNoMoreNames 1 year ago
@AreThereNoMoreNames Then please restate your argument.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
if they are really libertarian, they will want no IRS, and they will want sound money, with thos two things alone, immigration loses it's value as a wedge issue.
:)
iTellYouNoLie 1 year ago
Uh huh. I'm sure the Latinos will strongly support getting rid of welfare, and affirmative action, and goodies handed about by the government, because they'll be such principled libertarians. Oh, wait, that's about as likely as pigs crapping gold. Nevermind.
NAARandom 1 year ago
@NAARandom Actually, of the very minimal statics we have on the issue, latinos have in fact seemed to become more and more libertarian and have either already or are about to match the per capita percentage of white libertarians.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 2
@JacobSpinney
Well, yeah, if you call two data points a trend. And I would love to see you cite the data that says they're about to match the per capita percentage of white libertarians (which wouldn't matter anyway, since that would still be about 10%, and most of the ones who are not libertarians are ultra-leftists in economic terms, and are social conservatives, and are far more likely to hold both views than whites on average).
NAARandom 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
They steal my women.
pink3y 1 year ago
Not sure I agree on this. Maybe as a whole in the long-run jobs are actually created rather than destroyed but in the short-run the jobs which are filled by illegal immigrants suffer pay-cuts (or dont get pay rises in line with inflation) so those members of society are actually poorer. Also it assumes that people can easily reskill and find new and better employment - this is unrealistic. Hazlitt said its important to consider the short and long run effects on all groups of people.
rjthomas23 1 year ago
@rjthomas23 Sure. In the short run, the native crop harvester gets underbid. But in the long run, everyone is better off. Hazlitt was all about focusing on the unseen. We can see the guy who loses his job to outsourcing, because of we released a tariff. What we don't see is all of the jobs that have been gained because of that release. Same with immigration.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney
I'm beginning to understand. In a perfectly free market where the economy is expanding and new jobs become readily available you are probably right - unfortunately we dont have that. Therefore illegal immigration is contributing to unemployment. Also while it might be beneficial in the long-run economically it seems immoral to allow/overlook it when so many unemployed natives are under/unemployed. I also believe it contributes to the wealth gap - but feel free to educate me.
rjthomas23 1 year ago
@rjthomas23 But don't you see, this is not the fault of immigrants. This is the fault of failed government policies. The government is to blame. Not immigrants.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 3
@JacobSpinney
Yes I completely agree - its not the fault of the immigrants. They are just acting rationally. If I worked as a builder in a less privileged country and could earn 3 or 4 times my wages working overseas I would do the same. However I cannot agree that it is a good thing because of the not so short-term effects on the wages of the native builder. Fair enough if demand is increasing in the building sector an influx of migrant workers arent going to drive down the wages.
rjthomas23 1 year ago
You were blocked because you consistently use condescending rhetoric, strawman arguments, and appeal to ridicule, in spite of a lot of warnings. Your argumentation is constantly nibbling around the edges at phantom arguments that no one else ever made, rather than directly addressing the points that other people make.
I just got tired of it... I'd rather discuss things with people who are not so dishonest in their methods.
eagleeye1975 1 year ago
@eagleeye1975 Please, where in the comments section of your video did I attack a strawman of someone? Where in this video am I making a strawman?
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@eagleeye1975 Thank you for the letting me know that I come off as condescending. I continue to try and change howI talk so that it doesn't come off that way. If I were the kind of person to give out uninvited criticism, I would say that you come off as condescending as well. Telling people that you are going to "educate" them and calling individuals "idiot," "little children," "fuckers," intentionally mocking people, and so on, are not helpful toward getting people to your position.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 2
@eagleeye1975 I would also say that you have a bad habit of screaming fallacy even when there wasn't one. When I call you out on these supposed straw mans I commit, the most you can do is show that I might have paraphrased you instead of quoted verbatim. That is not a straw man, as I have already shown in the past. A strawman is not just a misrepresentation, but an intentional misrepresentation and attack of that misrepresentation that is invalid if applied to the argument being misrepresented.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 4
@eagleeye1975 But I'm no saint, so I'm not in a position to be giving out uninvited advice. It seems our personalities don't mesh. So I wish you the best of luck in spreading the message of liberty.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@eagleeye1975
I find this statement hypocritical at best, considering you do the same to many Statists in your videos as well.
I find JacobSpinney to be more respectful and honest than most people on the interwebs.
rockandrock44 1 year ago
@eagleeye1975
Eagleeye I use to think you were the poster boy for hypocrisy but now I genuinely think you have cognitive dysfunctions that make you act the way you do.
Best of luck to you.... remember, your special.
wizkid2000 1 year ago
DEY TUK R JERBS!!!!
Not really. lol
vspqbd 1 year ago
illegals drain the system, leaching off of welfare checks and social programs while contributing negatively on society. they also put our schools behind, having to cater to second language students, slowing down the classroom.
and with so many people unemployed today, i'd rather an American job go to an American who contributes to a system. This isn't from the view point of a limited job market, only common sense that American citizens, or even legal immigrants, have priority over illegals.
Spazzboy911 1 year ago
@Spazzboy911 These are arguments for ending welfare and social programs. Not immigration.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 11
@JacobSpinney I agree with ending welfare and social programs. However you can't really end all of them. For instance, illegals have lots of children who go to school. And illegals end up at the ER. Maybe change the policy at the ER - "sir, before we treat your gaping gunshot wound, we've got to see picture id and your insurance card". And deporting and imprisoning illegals costs money too. And don't forget all the latino gangs which have many illegals. Disease and drugs come across the border 2
megagagnon1 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney Indeed, but part of the problem, nonetheless. What do you think of the other point I made? I don't have a problem with, like, a Mexican having a job, or whatever the case may be, but wouldn't it help if they were a legal citizen?
Spazzboy911 1 year ago
Beaverpoop. Many illegal immigrants pay into social programs financedby their own taxes even thouhgh they don't receivecd any ofthe benefits legal US received.Most americans school children are not required tolearn spainish. A person should receive a job because theywould be competent at the job or they would meet all of the qualifications pertinent for the job. Just like race and your ethnicity have nothing to do with job performance, neither does citizenship status.
Pentazoid111 1 year ago 3
I've seen numerous explanations of why illegal aliens don't make unemployment worse, and they've all been a little weird. They just say, "It frees up resources for people to work elsewhere," and that always sounded to me like it assumed full employment to begin with. But your explanation has just put the pieces together well enough that this very simple concept is now clear in my mind. Good work.
JETZcorp 1 year ago
I agree. However, if there was no government regulation you would get the same affect on the economy. Well, thats what I see if you take that same logic a little further. Also, that would allow people who are less skilled to have access to the under minimum wage jobs, without fear of having force used agenst them by the government.
azumaninjay 1 year ago
And lol, the US has booming job opportunities? With (official) unemployment still up near 10%, I'm not getting all that excited by the supposedly booming job opportunities.
NAARandom 1 year ago
@NAARandom wish I could find one...
azumaninjay 1 year ago
@NAARandom And that unemployment is caused by the government distorting the economy. Not by immigrants.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago 2
@JacobSpinney
My point was that we are not suffering from a labor shortage. And that does not address the other points (public services, welfare, crime, and voting).
NAARandom 1 year ago
@NAARandom Welfare and voting is a matter of ensuring a valid social security number. Illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes, because of the fear of deportation. tinyurl/immigrantlesscrime
And as far as public services, there should be none in the first place.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago
@JacobSpinney
Their kids who are born here are automatically citizens and can vote. Their kids also qualify for welfare. It's the long-term (which you don't seem to be considering) that I'm concerned with here. And whether you think there should be public services doesn't change the fact that there are, and that immigrants, legal and illegal, impose costs on those services, and low-income immigrants don't pay back those costs in taxes.
NAARandom 1 year ago
@NAARandom
But if you want to spend your time constructing ideal libertarian societies in your head that will never materialize (especially with a large Latino population voting), rather than deal with reality, go right ahead.
NAARandom 1 year ago
@NAARandom These are arguments against welfare and social programs. Not against immigration. If I steal your money and give it to person X, that is not an argument to deport person X. It is an argument for me to stop stealing your money.
JacobSpinney 1 year ago