well this has been a nice discussion. you have not changed my mind, but i will look into what the apostles did and where they ended up. you mentioned Clement, i suppose i will start there. thanks for the input.
@thetruthrover Good chat..but don't start with Clement! Clement is later...in the 190s or so. He had no real contact with the apostles, other than being in a city with a church founded by St. Mark. Start with Ignatius of Antioch...he's early...106...and he was ordained bishop by Peter and was mentored by John. Read what scholars consider the works that are legitamitely his...the short recention. It SCREAMS Jesus' uncreated deity.
Islam is a cult too! One cannot leave this cult honorably without attacks and reproach from family!! Iv'e seen many Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses side with each other and fight together against the DEITY of Christ! Even calling themselves "brother" Why? Because they both cannot accept Jesus as their LORD and Savior. These two cults are possessed with the spirit of deception and anti-Christ! Boy are they in for a BIG surprise!
i know this is off topic, but if God took on a human form, (as you say at 3:00) how is it that the death of Jesus corresponds exactly to that which Adam lost. If Jesus was anything more than a perfect man, the sacrifice, in my opinion becomes invalid. Something that has always existed and is immortal, can never die. Am i wrong?
@thetruthrover Hey TR! What your opinion there is the VERY flawed JW view of the atonement that the fine folks at the Witchtower taught you. Christians don't hold that view. Tell ya what, I'll address this after work. Talk to ya then.
@thetruthrover Ok, Truthrover. Here's the Christian view of the atonement:
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24
Far from corresponding precisely to what Adam lost...his suffering and death pays for the sins of ALL of mankind. He had the guilt of every man's sin placed upon him when he hung dying. No creature could bear all of humanity's sin debt. cont.
@msm1876 Adam's sin caused ALL of mankind to be a slave to sin and death. Indeed, the whole ordeal was too much for Jesus; He died. (sooner than the criminals next to him) Jesus was a perfect man while on earth. If God were controlling him externally or from within his own body, Jesus would not have been exercising free will. In my opinion this would void the value of the sacrifice.
@thetruthrover >>>Indeed, the whole ordeal was too much for Jesus;
Could it be that bearing the wrath of God in his spirit for all of mankind's sins hastened his expiring? And while this JW apprroach to the atonement sounds nice, can 1 Peter 2:24 be squared with it? Does the Dubtonement have Jesus bearing all of man's sins in his body on a tree?
@msm1876 at this point, i'm not concerned with the Watchtower's view of matters. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying Jesus bore all our sins, and no doubt that would have hastened his death. but i don't think that's the issue. Let me ask you: According to the bible, God is incapable of doing wrong. Would you say that Jesus, while on earth had the ability to do wrong if he so desired?
@thetruthrover >>>I don't think there's anything wrong with saying Jesus bore all our sins, and no doubt that would have hastened his death.
Well, it is, though. The Dubtonement, as I've labeled it, denies that Jesus DID actually bear all of our sins. He death takes the place of Adam's life, one life for another.
Now, God is incapable of doing wrong...yet Jesus was tempted. And that's because he's God (John 1:1, 8:58, Titus 2:13) and Human...merged into one person. cont
@thetruthrover Clement of Alexandria, the great Egyptian church father, called Jesus "The new creature" in one of his sermons...meaning that there has never before been a creature, a human being, whose spirit always existed as God. So while God in his pure deity cannot be tempted, it is possible that with by becoming human, Jesus could.
@msm1876 i'm not familiar with Clement, but your statement makes it apparent that he argued for the Trinity; So, in my opinion, his opinion may be in error. Now i will say that Jesus did exist before his life as a man, but not as God. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." To me its simple: If God wanted us to imagine him as triune, he would not have used a father and son relationship to picture it.
@thetruthrover Re-read John 17:5 and tell me what you think of the notion of a creature requesting his Creator to glorify him. What if I did that? Or the angel Gabriel? Would that not be blasphemous and absurd?
@msm1876 So you are saying that Jesus did not ask his father to glorify him? i disagree; furthermore, John 8:54 says: "Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; "
@thetruthrover it is quite clear to me that the Trinity is a false teaching. it is quite clear to you that the Trinity is a true teaching. i don't think we're going to get anywhere, but it is my sincere hope that God would not destroy you nor i based on what we perceive from the scriptures. they are confusing and we are all doing the best we can.
@thetruthrover >>>So you are saying that Jesus did not ask his father to glorify him?
I think you misunderstood me. I was asking whether you thought the notion of a creature asking his creator struck you as absurd, even blasphemous. Creatures glorify their creator, not vice versa. I fully affirm that Jesus DID ask the Father to glorify him.
Just one more thing: You said that the bible can be confusing. I agree. You need some kind of hermeneutical boundaries...cont
@thetruthrover cont so as not to bring a pre-conceived notion into the text.
We have two different beliefs. One is that Jesus is uncreated Deity, the other that he is a creature. One of these beliefs was believed by people that the apostles taught, in Churches that they retired at...right after they retired there. It was believed for centuries without controversy in the Church.
The other was not heard of until the 300s...and caused a HUGE stir when it was proposed. cnt.
@msm1876 It was viewed as a novel view of who Jesus Christ is, one that the apostles couldn't have taught. It only lasted about a century and a half, and it withered and died, going completly belly up for over 1000 years.
Of course, the "Jesus is God" view is the FIrst, and the "Jesus is a creature" view is the second.
I'd urge you...if you find the bible confusing, use this as a hermeneutic to read these verses through. I'm glad, though that you seem to believe in God still.
@msm1876 i believe it would be even more absurd for an individual to ask himself to glorify himself. Answer me this: If Jesus is God, why didn't he say it outright? If he had come to lighten people's loads, why did he speak in ways that could be misinterpreted and misrepresented by mankind? Why is the Bible more like a book of riddles than a guide to happiness? If God wants to save as many as possible, why not just communicate a little better?
It sounds like you're confounding trinitarianism with modalism. I don't believe they're the same person...that's what a modalist, like a oneness pentacostal believes.
>>>If Jesus is God, why didn't he say it outright?
Don't know, but his claims of deity are pretty well unambiguous.
>>>book of riddles than a guide to happiness?
It's not to be read by lone rangers, shall we say. It's purpose was never for people to just sit...cnt
@thetruthrover cnt It was never meant for people, especially people FAR removed from it's first century Jewish-Roman-Greek Roots, to sit and read it entirely on their own and import their own modern misunderstandings into it, their modern pre-conceived notions.
Jesus didn't leave us a book, he set up a Church. That Churc is filled with people who preach his word, who exegete it, who get to the bottom of it's 1st century meaning, who study the Church Fathers cont
@thetruthrover and remind people that doctrines weren't believed in antiquity, and shouldn't be believed by modern believers as being truly apostolic.
THe Bible was NEVER be meant to be read in a vacuum. That's, frankly, how cults start. >>>why not just communicate a little better?
@thetruthrover >>>Something that has always existed and is immortal, can never
Ever see the movie Dogma? Remember when God took on human body for the sake of playing skeeball? (SMH) He got jumped by demons and was becomes comatose? When Linda Fiorentino pulls the plug on his comatose body and kills him...for the sake of freeing His Sprit that is trapped in the comatose body...
Does God die? Yes. A person who is God dies. But does what MADE that person God die? No.
@ msm1876 The Eternal Almighty God, the Father, doesn't need a human body, he alone is an immutable spirit, his perfection and his eternal power is unsearchable. He doesn't need tacos al pastor nor enchiladas to live, he lives within his own unchanging power.
Notice what the glorified Jesus will do at his return to earth: Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not {{drink}} of the {{fruit}} of the vine, {until} the kingdom of God {shall come}.
@JesusTheMonotheist I can't refute you any better than what you just did to yourself by using that name that you chose and holding the beliefs that you have. That is the finest definition of a contradiction that I have ever seen.
@JesusTheMonotheist You must be Cristo. Because only he could be so thick headed enough to make such a stupid comment to me. Question: Do we teach that God is 1+1+1=3 or 1x1x1=1? You tell me Mr Jesus is a polythiest. but call yourself a Monotheist. You tell me Mr 2nd Law of logic breaker.
@barbsinclair Yes, the Koran claims Jesus was sinless, Mohammed wasn't...yet Jesus WASN'T Allah's last prophet; Mohammed was. Nothing like ending with your best number.
When this evidence is evaluated systematically, the only rational conclusion is that Islam's lone prophet was a ruthless terrorist, a mass-murderer, a thief, slave trader, rapist and pedophile. Oh and Mohammad never made a prophecy...ask a muslim that.
He was the Prophet of God who had only that much of knowledge as God decided to impart him and the knowledge of the HOUR was not imparted to any human.
Many of the people will try to take this verse as an evidence that he called himself as son, but according to Bible at other places, any human who devotes himself to God ardently is called the SON of God
Perhaps **a** son...but not THE Son. And do remember what he calls God in this verse..."THe Father." And look at the other ways Jesus is portrayed as God's son in Mark. Mark 1:11? It's in THIS context that Jesus calls himself "the Son."
This saying of Jesus should NOT be brushed aside.
Please show me one spot in the bible where a servant of God is called THE Son of God.
well this has been a nice discussion. you have not changed my mind, but i will look into what the apostles did and where they ended up. you mentioned Clement, i suppose i will start there. thanks for the input.
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover Good chat..but don't start with Clement! Clement is later...in the 190s or so. He had no real contact with the apostles, other than being in a city with a church founded by St. Mark. Start with Ignatius of Antioch...he's early...106...and he was ordained bishop by Peter and was mentored by John. Read what scholars consider the works that are legitamitely his...the short recention. It SCREAMS Jesus' uncreated deity.
Good chat, drop by again anytime!
msm1876 1 month ago
Islam is a cult too! One cannot leave this cult honorably without attacks and reproach from family!! Iv'e seen many Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses side with each other and fight together against the DEITY of Christ! Even calling themselves "brother" Why? Because they both cannot accept Jesus as their LORD and Savior. These two cults are possessed with the spirit of deception and anti-Christ! Boy are they in for a BIG surprise!
THEBEREANZ 1 month ago
i know this is off topic, but if God took on a human form, (as you say at 3:00) how is it that the death of Jesus corresponds exactly to that which Adam lost. If Jesus was anything more than a perfect man, the sacrifice, in my opinion becomes invalid. Something that has always existed and is immortal, can never die. Am i wrong?
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover Hey TR! What your opinion there is the VERY flawed JW view of the atonement that the fine folks at the Witchtower taught you. Christians don't hold that view. Tell ya what, I'll address this after work. Talk to ya then.
msm1876 1 month ago
@thetruthrover Ok, Truthrover. Here's the Christian view of the atonement:
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24
Far from corresponding precisely to what Adam lost...his suffering and death pays for the sins of ALL of mankind. He had the guilt of every man's sin placed upon him when he hung dying. No creature could bear all of humanity's sin debt. cont.
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 --->No creature could bear all of humanity's sin debt.
Where does it say that in the bible? can you back it up.
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@msm1876 Adam's sin caused ALL of mankind to be a slave to sin and death. Indeed, the whole ordeal was too much for Jesus; He died. (sooner than the criminals next to him) Jesus was a perfect man while on earth. If God were controlling him externally or from within his own body, Jesus would not have been exercising free will. In my opinion this would void the value of the sacrifice.
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover >>>Indeed, the whole ordeal was too much for Jesus;
Could it be that bearing the wrath of God in his spirit for all of mankind's sins hastened his expiring? And while this JW apprroach to the atonement sounds nice, can 1 Peter 2:24 be squared with it? Does the Dubtonement have Jesus bearing all of man's sins in his body on a tree?
Think it over, Truther.
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 at this point, i'm not concerned with the Watchtower's view of matters. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying Jesus bore all our sins, and no doubt that would have hastened his death. but i don't think that's the issue. Let me ask you: According to the bible, God is incapable of doing wrong. Would you say that Jesus, while on earth had the ability to do wrong if he so desired?
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover >>>I don't think there's anything wrong with saying Jesus bore all our sins, and no doubt that would have hastened his death.
Well, it is, though. The Dubtonement, as I've labeled it, denies that Jesus DID actually bear all of our sins. He death takes the place of Adam's life, one life for another.
Now, God is incapable of doing wrong...yet Jesus was tempted. And that's because he's God (John 1:1, 8:58, Titus 2:13) and Human...merged into one person. cont
msm1876 1 month ago
@thetruthrover Clement of Alexandria, the great Egyptian church father, called Jesus "The new creature" in one of his sermons...meaning that there has never before been a creature, a human being, whose spirit always existed as God. So while God in his pure deity cannot be tempted, it is possible that with by becoming human, Jesus could.
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 ===>a human being, whose spirit always existed as God.
Your dead wrong!!! there is only "One Spirit"(Eph 2:18) it's God the Father's Eternal spirit(Hbr 9:14)
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@msm1876 i'm not familiar with Clement, but your statement makes it apparent that he argued for the Trinity; So, in my opinion, his opinion may be in error. Now i will say that Jesus did exist before his life as a man, but not as God. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." To me its simple: If God wanted us to imagine him as triune, he would not have used a father and son relationship to picture it.
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover Re-read John 17:5 and tell me what you think of the notion of a creature requesting his Creator to glorify him. What if I did that? Or the angel Gabriel? Would that not be blasphemous and absurd?
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 So you are saying that Jesus did not ask his father to glorify him? i disagree; furthermore, John 8:54 says: "Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; "
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover it is quite clear to me that the Trinity is a false teaching. it is quite clear to you that the Trinity is a true teaching. i don't think we're going to get anywhere, but it is my sincere hope that God would not destroy you nor i based on what we perceive from the scriptures. they are confusing and we are all doing the best we can.
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover >>>So you are saying that Jesus did not ask his father to glorify him?
I think you misunderstood me. I was asking whether you thought the notion of a creature asking his creator struck you as absurd, even blasphemous. Creatures glorify their creator, not vice versa. I fully affirm that Jesus DID ask the Father to glorify him.
Just one more thing: You said that the bible can be confusing. I agree. You need some kind of hermeneutical boundaries...cont
msm1876 1 month ago
@thetruthrover cont so as not to bring a pre-conceived notion into the text.
We have two different beliefs. One is that Jesus is uncreated Deity, the other that he is a creature. One of these beliefs was believed by people that the apostles taught, in Churches that they retired at...right after they retired there. It was believed for centuries without controversy in the Church.
The other was not heard of until the 300s...and caused a HUGE stir when it was proposed. cnt.
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 It was viewed as a novel view of who Jesus Christ is, one that the apostles couldn't have taught. It only lasted about a century and a half, and it withered and died, going completly belly up for over 1000 years.
Of course, the "Jesus is God" view is the FIrst, and the "Jesus is a creature" view is the second.
I'd urge you...if you find the bible confusing, use this as a hermeneutic to read these verses through. I'm glad, though that you seem to believe in God still.
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 i believe it would be even more absurd for an individual to ask himself to glorify himself. Answer me this: If Jesus is God, why didn't he say it outright? If he had come to lighten people's loads, why did he speak in ways that could be misinterpreted and misrepresented by mankind? Why is the Bible more like a book of riddles than a guide to happiness? If God wants to save as many as possible, why not just communicate a little better?
thetruthrover 1 month ago
@thetruthrover >himself to glorify himself
It sounds like you're confounding trinitarianism with modalism. I don't believe they're the same person...that's what a modalist, like a oneness pentacostal believes.
>>>If Jesus is God, why didn't he say it outright?
Don't know, but his claims of deity are pretty well unambiguous.
>>>book of riddles than a guide to happiness?
It's not to be read by lone rangers, shall we say. It's purpose was never for people to just sit...cnt
msm1876 1 month ago
@thetruthrover cnt It was never meant for people, especially people FAR removed from it's first century Jewish-Roman-Greek Roots, to sit and read it entirely on their own and import their own modern misunderstandings into it, their modern pre-conceived notions.
Jesus didn't leave us a book, he set up a Church. That Churc is filled with people who preach his word, who exegete it, who get to the bottom of it's 1st century meaning, who study the Church Fathers cont
msm1876 1 month ago
@thetruthrover and remind people that doctrines weren't believed in antiquity, and shouldn't be believed by modern believers as being truly apostolic.
THe Bible was NEVER be meant to be read in a vacuum. That's, frankly, how cults start. >>>why not just communicate a little better?
See above.
msm1876 1 month ago
@thetruthrover >>>Something that has always existed and is immortal, can never
Ever see the movie Dogma? Remember when God took on human body for the sake of playing skeeball? (SMH) He got jumped by demons and was becomes comatose? When Linda Fiorentino pulls the plug on his comatose body and kills him...for the sake of freeing His Sprit that is trapped in the comatose body...
Does God die? Yes. A person who is God dies. But does what MADE that person God die? No.
msm1876 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@msm1876 ---->Does God die? Yes. A person who is God dies. But does what MADE that person God die? No.
Where does it say that in the bible? can you back it up.
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@ msm1876 The Eternal Almighty God, the Father, doesn't need a human body, he alone is an immutable spirit, his perfection and his eternal power is unsearchable. He doesn't need tacos al pastor nor enchiladas to live, he lives within his own unchanging power.
Notice what the glorified Jesus will do at his return to earth: Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not {{drink}} of the {{fruit}} of the vine, {until} the kingdom of God {shall come}.
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@JesusTheMonotheist What in the world does this have to do with Islam, Cruzie? Honestly.
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 A world of tacos al pastor con enchiladas!
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@JesusTheMonotheist If Jesus is a monotheist, then why do you believe that he is another god? You never answer this.
pretoshohmoofc 1 month ago
@pretoshohmoofc Yeah, his username should be "Jesusthehenotheist" because that's what he and his "jesus" are.
msm1876 1 month ago
@msm1876 Yeah right, Jesus was a henotheist and trinitarian.
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@pretoshohmoofc I believe you're god. Get a job at the circus.
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@JesusTheMonotheist I can't refute you any better than what you just did to yourself by using that name that you chose and holding the beliefs that you have. That is the finest definition of a contradiction that I have ever seen.
pretoshohmoofc 1 month ago
@pretoshohmoofc ===>That is the finest definition of a contradiction that I have ever seen.
God+God+God=?
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@JesusTheMonotheist You must be Cristo. Because only he could be so thick headed enough to make such a stupid comment to me. Question: Do we teach that God is 1+1+1=3 or 1x1x1=1? You tell me Mr Jesus is a polythiest. but call yourself a Monotheist. You tell me Mr 2nd Law of logic breaker.
pretoshohmoofc 1 month ago
@pretoshohmoofc ===>Do we teach that God is 1+1+1=3 or 1x1x1=1?
HAHAHA!!! God+God+God=3
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
@JesusTheMonotheist Alright Cruzie, my conversation with thetruthrover is finished. You can come down from your room now...you're unblocked.
msm1876 1 month ago
@JesusThepolytheist That is proof that you are a false teacher, because only false teachers teach falsely.
pretoshohmoofc 1 month ago
@pretoshohmoofc Are you a Calvinist? HAHAHA!!!
JesusTheMonotheist 1 month ago
yet in the Quran's Maryam Sura, it teaches the truth, that Christ Jesus is Holy, born of a virgin.
"LOL" that
barbsinclair 1 month ago
@barbsinclair Yes, the Koran claims Jesus was sinless, Mohammed wasn't...yet Jesus WASN'T Allah's last prophet; Mohammed was. Nothing like ending with your best number.
msm1876 1 month ago
When this evidence is evaluated systematically, the only rational conclusion is that Islam's lone prophet was a ruthless terrorist, a mass-murderer, a thief, slave trader, rapist and pedophile. Oh and Mohammad never made a prophecy...ask a muslim that.
thejihadresistance 1 month ago
@thejihadresistance
So many charges were put on Jesus pbuh too when his people denied him and tried to crucify him.
People need to search excuses if they want to reject God's messenger, whether it was Jesus or Muhammad, peace be upon them both
farzanatasneem 3 weeks ago
@farzanatasneem mohamhead is a fraud, repent, your god is a demon
thejihadresistance 3 weeks ago
@thejihadresistance
Where is your proof?
John1:4 :1 is a proof that Muhammad, peace be upon him is the true Prophet of God as he confessed that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.
Qur'an describes Jesus , peace be upon him at 25 places with reverence .
Two places describe his birth from a virgin.
but, being born of a virgin does not make anyone Divine.
farzanatasneem 3 weeks ago
@farzanatasneem DO you want to debate?
thejihadresistance 3 weeks ago
@farzanatasneem Hi. Do you think Jesus said what's recorded in Mark 13:32?
msm1876 3 weeks ago
@msm1876
What is the problem if he said so?
He was the Prophet of God who had only that much of knowledge as God decided to impart him and the knowledge of the HOUR was not imparted to any human.
Many of the people will try to take this verse as an evidence that he called himself as son, but according to Bible at other places, any human who devotes himself to God ardently is called the SON of God
farzanatasneem 3 weeks ago
@farzanatasneem >>>called the SON of God
Perhaps **a** son...but not THE Son. And do remember what he calls God in this verse..."THe Father." And look at the other ways Jesus is portrayed as God's son in Mark. Mark 1:11? It's in THIS context that Jesus calls himself "the Son."
This saying of Jesus should NOT be brushed aside.
Please show me one spot in the bible where a servant of God is called THE Son of God.
msm1876 3 weeks ago