Hi my name is Abin I am a musical activist. I also have studied Worker owned and democratically controlled economics. I have written a Workers economic Bill of rights based on my research.
Does anyone have any plan for what to do with all the Psychopaths who (like poop) float to the top? This seems to be a more pressing issue: The fact that many of them are in charge and we can't change them. We could implement friendly systems of economics etc.. without their influence.
spare me the nonsense about visionaries. It's one thing to invent something, and its another to have a radical change forced down on the people. Democracy came through slow evolution. Everything happens in due time But the glue that holds it all together economically, is CAPITALISM. You dont have to call it Capitalism if you don't like the word, but it's still Capitalism. Abandon the concept of Capitalism and that means that nobody owns anything and everything belongs to the "people". What ppl?
Cont..Part 4. That Libertarians/Conservatives don't care about people. And we don't think that about the Left, the Socialists....we just think that they are foolish. They're ignorant. I don't think they're mean. But to them, they just can't understand saying, "why don't you wanna help these people?". I DO, I just understand that your politics are hurting them. And they can't figure that out because it requires them to think. And they don't wanna think, they just wanna feel. WHAT FEELS GOOD.
Part 3...A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T CONNECT THE DOTS, they don't see the unintended consequences. They say, "the road to hell is paved through good intentions". That quote came into existence for a reason. And I think a lot of people take the easy way out. Socialism on it's surface is appealing if you don't think it out. And you can feel good about yourself if you sign on to these doctrines & that's why a lot of Socialists/Libs think that Conservatives/Libertarians are actually mean. (cont part 4.)
Continuing....and to the extent that people do fall through the cracks in a Capitalist system, they will be helped. But I think in a pure Free Market Capitalist system, far few people fall through those cracks because the cracks will be a lot smaller. The Govt. and their social welfare state create this culture of dependency, softening up individuals. There are a lot more people who need help, precisely because we're not ALLOWING CAPITALISM TO WORK. A lot of people just don't connect the dots.
The simple solution is to is a direct 'ad valorem' tax on the value of land and natural resources. This would go a long way to creating free market effciencies and stop the concentration of ownership as proposed by Henry George and many others.
@cupocity303 Hold up, I wasn't going after you, just making a statement within the argument that you had going with someone else. You and I don't need to be arguing. I just had a sit down discussion with a conservative buddy of mine. It turns out that he and I agree on most issues, with compromise in the ones that we don't. I suspect that you and I agree on a lot of issues. There's no need to battle anymore, relax.
Hey cupocity, you say I have declared myself the winner. Are you implying that I am a self absorbed puffed up ignorant who cannot see his own failed arguments????????? If so would you like me to prove how that is far truer for you than me? Would you like me to demonstrate how utterly ridiculous some of your arguments have been? I can quote you if you want. Remember phone bills cost more in Denmark statement, that one is my fav.
@cupocity303 Its funny to me that you are so incredibly stupid, but it is getting tiring now. Yes, that is perfectly logical because a relative told you something you therefore should take it as a fact without an referencing or data collection, right. Yeah that's smart. But that wasn't even my actual problem with the statement, even if true it would be a stupid thing to say. Denmark beats the US in almost every metric but out of country phone calls cost more, therefore socialism is bad? WOW.
I have never talked to a pro capitalist person that would ever or could ever make as bad of a case for capitalism as you have. The mere fact of this means that you must be a troll or a poe of some kind.
Cupocity, you are a polite person and its fun talking to you but you are not the person that should be defending capitalism. Leave that to others that do better jobs. Leave this in the hands of professionals. lol.
During the progressive movement self-employed farmers and other small businesses united with urban factory workers to protect themselves from predatory corporate capitalism, and eventually helped to elect as president the populist reformer Theadore Roosevelt.
@cupocity303 Are you joking with me? Are you being satirical, by that I mean to say are you satirizing libertarian conservative positions are do you actually believe what you just said is a good argument? I managed to use the same space you did without making horrifically terrible and also comedy like arguments. I think you are trolling me sir, I do not believe you are serious and if so you are one of the most stupid people I have ever talked to.
the resource based economy - based on technical efficieny - resource preservation and conservation - shared acces to optimaly use items - and access abundance - incorporating best designs practices that consider make long lasting -repairing -recycling - reusing- upgrading goods. that incorporate solar- wind- tide- ocean current -geo thermal - solar thermal - advanced fuel cells- infrared conversion antenna - pressure transducers - thermo coupling - and many other underutilized abundant energys
I faved because a lot of this can be applied to the UK.
So much has gone wrong; I think its time the mainstream British left started listening to its former giants, the late great Michael Foot and the still grumblin' Tony Benn, and work in a coalition towards proper democratic socialism.
lol, well at least time we started to use the time that we wash out cans and put them in the recycling bag on something that will make a difference in the grand scheme of society
@cupocity303 Lol, I looked on the bottom of my laptop and it said "Made in China", a communist country that took most of our jobs. What part of capitalism's failure do you not understand? Did you understand the concepts discussed in the video? Are you aware that we are in a depression brought on by the continued failure of the capitalist system? A system where there is never enough money to feed the greed of those who manipulate and control the system.
@fywacia china does not have a communist economy and of course capitalists aren't satisfied with their income. greed is not a downfall of the system, but it drives the system. nice job creating a paragraph composed mostly of questions, though.
As you stated it is capitalism just a different form of capitalism, unfortunatly capitalism is the creation of concentration of ownership, with any concentration of ownership you are going to get corruption, this is after all why these regulationary bodies exist
It is more easily understood when viewed from what is the most centralized, not what the system technically is, the more centralized the worst, within a degree of course
China is not economical communist for the most part in anything but name
I would say you don't seem to have a very good understanding of capitalism's failing as you don't seem to understand the reason why China has economical grown as it has; it is due to currency imbalances, labor cost etc
@radroatch I'm fully aware of the situation with China as well as issues in the EU. You have to understand that my comment was in response to an absurd Fox News talking point that was used to critique the OWS movement because the used various forms of communication devices that were made by corporations to organize. As if to say that without capitalism there would be no manufacturing base, no innovation, and ultimately no progress.
@fywacia That was the premise of the comment that I answered. Fox News on the other hand attempted to say that the OWS movement was anti business. When in reality it's not anti business, it's against big corporations buying out or elected representatives by out spending the public. And it's against the inequality that this creates as well as the erosion of our civil liberties which is currently taking place in order to suppress the public's growing backlash against the banks.
Sorry I misunderstood then, fox is nothing but a joke news channel, it's just ashame that people really buy into it, I guess the shiny blue pill looks tastier
That argument can quite easily be turned on its head and show how a market has been very successfully monopolized passed the point of many viable alternatives that allow for greater innovation and manufacturing base
@radroatch My point was aimed at the logic used in that persons statement because corporations have wiped out our manufacturing base. The fact that my laptop which that person mentioned was made in china simply demonstrates the irony of the situation. There's a second part of my first response to you which you won't see because I responded to myself by accident.
Yes it is an irony how neo-capitalism is claimed to be an efficient system, yet we ship the majority of products from nearly the other side of the world wasting resources by the bucket, not to mention the waste behind the produces themselves, of course there are good reasons why neo-capitalism has these ironies, not to say they are not capitalist in nature
Can't really find much fault with the second part anyways
Interested to hear your position on Europe as you mentioned it earlier?
@radroatch My chief complaint with capitalism is that in order for it to properly function there must be inequality and continued growth and consumption. This is the reason why it's unsustainable in a world with an out of control population and dwindling resources. In 50 years there will be more development in India and China and the current carbon based economy won't be able to handle it. Neo-capitalism is a symptom of a global system in collapse that few people fully understand.
@radroatch Go to the real news networks channel and search their archives for videos about European austerity. There's a few featuring lengthy interviews by real economists in contrast to the corporate media's pundits. If you remember back to the spring and summer the corporate media were promoting austerity measures in Europe. The general claim was that democratic socialism was the culprit in the economic failure of Greece, Spain, and so on. Continued...
@radroatch This was done to further demonize the social safety net and to condition the public to accept austerity measures here. The corporate right who framed Obama who is an agent of finance capital as a socialist were busy attempting to connect his failing recovery measures with the failing economic system in Europe. The truth is that the real failure is the concept of the EU. You have countries competing against one another under the same currency. Continued
I wouldn't call it a symptom, I would call it more the means, yes true there are worse systems we could currently be under, but it is also true that capitalism is driving us into those conditions through its function; one thing that is not often accounted is that capitalism drives populace growth, not just that it is a situational condition
It is very scary, under the exponential function we can see how unsustainable this all is
I watch many such interviews and believe that the...
@radroatch Your right, it's also the means of the collapse. And capitalism can lead to fascism when the corporations buy out the government which is what we have right now. Obama threatened a veto of the NDAA because there was an amendment that prevented American citizens to be held, tortured, and executed without evidence or trial. He pushed for this because they are preparing for martial law due to economic collapse. The torture and execution provisions are a classified..
@radroatch portion of the NDAA. You will have to dig hard to verify it. And this is all a result of a failing capitalist system. In my opinion an economic cycle should not end in martial law. And the difficulty is in getting people to understand this because they have been conditioned to treat capitalism as a religion. And now we have a for profit prison system, a for profit justice system, a for profit system of national defense, a for profit healthcare system, etc.
I think it has more subtle aspects, but there is defiantly ligit' worries to that effect, this system is close to becoming totally fascism and the only thing that will stop that is social intervention, unfortunately it will also drive it as force will be used against it, new bills that allow the force
this bill and the piracy bills being pushed in both the UK and the US (the internet should have similar standing as in satellite orbiting space, as no nation can truly claim ownership)...
...Watch a doc' on the investment theory of politics, it outlines how much the money is a factor in politics and the repercussions
Capitalism is a system that can only suit the public good on exchanges more individual in nature, not on state scale, it simple does not fit the desired outcome of using the profit motive, being inflexible
@radroatch We literally make money from our own self destruction and everything has finally and very quickly come to a climatic crossroads where our choices are very limited. I would say that America's true national religion is capitalism and that Christianity which is claimed by 85% of people to be their religion is simply for saving face in public. In this country charity is considered a loss of revenue or a reason for a tax credit rather than a necessary human behavior.
...and conglomerates over nations and conglomerates, moving towards market states
So the goals of such a union will serve those with the greatest power, everything else is a pos'/neg' externalities; my evidence would be just look at where the money went and where the power is condensing
@radroatch I'm having trouble following what you are saying. Are you saying that the Euro central currency's purpose is to control inflation by preventing the devaluing of one member nations currency over another when hard times arrive? And that the problems associated with the economic meltdown in Europe are being caused by external factors for the most part rather than the actual design of the trade union?
I was talking about domestic inflation and how the most powerful nations have kept it the lowest, Germany being the worst offender, giving huge advantage on the other members as they are undercut by the cheaper domestic production capability, the other countries cannot currency adjust to counter
No, I wouldn't say that, it is to complicated for a few 500 posts, but things externally are causes such as market states of other currencies attacking the euros value, 'national insurance'...
... effectively being short sold, other economies crashing in a very open system
In design though, it was very clear, and openly and continually expressed, that it would fail, it was also foreseeable what such failing would cause to happen, in fact I go further and say this was intended to happen as we are seeing it is causing the largest power shift in Europe in at least half a decade, and massive transfer of wealth, benefiting the designer and their funders in many cases
The exponential function also applies to these other factors as well often
I put it under the broader terms of indoctrination and coercion, religion is a form of it and has and still is used as a method to maintain institution just like any other form, a society not controlled by force will have to be controlled by other means, we live in times that are the most technologically advanced in doing this
Even the word charity irks me, social responsibility should not be viewed in such a way
... rapid centralization of Europe is one of the terrible calamities people will look back in horror about, the truth shows that the socialist debt of countries cannot be counter by strong 'monetary union' or austerity, not to mention stopping a depression
At the end is where I disagree, the EU and the euro are only failing in the general perception of the aims, not in the true aims of the central power in such union, the EU really is a form of fiscal and political control by nations...
@fywacia That's right, "Real economists" agree with your political prejudices, and the ones who don't are pundits involved in a mass conspiracy to demonize all good things on earth. This is called an ideological narrative, and it's a paranoid one.
@radroatch The biggest reason for the debt and unemployment in Greece. Spain, and other is because Germany has taken a much greater share of the manufacturing base leaving other countries in hardship. And then these countries are forced to borrow from the same bankers who created the trade union. My point is that we are being manipulated like fools by our media who is controlled by multinational corporations and international banks.
Yes, I outline how they have done it above, not only that but the nations are made to surrender sovereignty and democracy, look at the technocrat banker mario monty I think he's called
Papers are around 65% ads, this means that the main customers to them are the corp's and the product is the control of the reader to the corp's interest, as Chomsky puts it, the ads are the content, the rest is the filler pretty much
@fywacia China is not communist (or socialist), China is not a liberal market society. It is mercantilist in the vein of 16th & 17th century European states. It success at ''taking jobs'' so recently is because their Marxist & Maoist policies kept workers so poor for so long that, now they are very cheap relative to wealthier nations workers I would hardly call that a win for ''communist'' China.
Yeah, all you can do is make excuses! The bottom line is that China is stronger and more capable that US, and it finances USA! That is what matters! And yes, China is communist, so much for decades of US propaganda and scare tactics! What h as the world come to when USA depends on a communist state.
@tropickman That's natural law. If you can conquer a weaker population, you make the laws and the system. When the Mexicans are able to take down the U.S. militarily, they can take over and kick out all the Anglo-sexons if they choose to. Until then, it is what it is. I'm a product of my environment. I didn't own slaves or kill Indians, nobody should hold it against me because I'm an ancestor of those people.
the "best" is not working anymore, capitalism is a stage in the evolution of mankind, after capitalism there is always fascism.This is because the nature of capital allows a minority to consolidate power. Just because its all YOU can imagine does not discredit the FACT there are other alternatives that take the strengths of all systems and put them together.
Your benign response illustrates the lack of creativity and strengthens my original statement,read it again!
The size of the government is not good nor bad, its how the regulation is applied.
This is the nature of capitalism, to be like water and find the easiest path, politics and regulation allow this, thus crony capitalism and soon following that fascism.
Its a natural progression of capitalism, and a fast one without regulation.
Lastly if you cannot see the huge amount of waste, human and energy non renewable that is spent on keeping this antiquated system implemented then chances are you have a dogmatic notion to said system.
The reality is that capitalism OPPRESSES human ingenuity and creative spirits via the process of leverage,do you even know what planned obsolescence is?!!
Suppression of technology ?!
Your coveted system is GARBAGE!
And just because I disagree does not make me a commie.
@cupocity303 I think that there is a best solution is libertarian socialism, reaching it though the current systems is the really hard part I think
We need to create democratic work environments such as co-ops, until we have this we will never have democracy, or free speech, or true liberty
We need to have decentralization, this doesn't mean removal of social functions as most anarcho-capitalist/librals want, it just means greater democratic function, especially on the local level
Who said I was forcing it on anyone, kind of the point to lib'Soc'(LS) is that nothing is forced on anyone; I do believe that a educated public with free speech and free media will end up wanting LS though intellectual understanding
The flaw in most the comment neolib' thinking (especially in the US) is that it has arisen though manipulation of opinion through the media based on ideology, there is a reason for this, it can be exploited, eg individual freedom=divide and conquer...
Well I'm not arguing for a pure democratic society under its most accurate definition, majority vote is not the only form of democracy, such percents would most likely be cause for veto, besides an accurate of such things is normally above 2%
Since a more democratic society would have more control eg votes, more necessity would sit on such protection to the individual and more reason to install such constitutional systems...
...However such a constitution should be applicable unto itself unlike that of the US's which is illegitimate under its own doctrine, the part to which you speak of, such illegitimates may account towards the checks and balances that are moralist in a way that insured the lines of the silk pocketed idols that created it, thinkers in schizophrenia with Nash equilibrium
Yes I was going to write about that to finish the last comment but I was you wrote about it, Ireland is another of the worst effected, they did by using their increased political and economical power to not increase inflation on target with other nations, my point earlier is that this is not the failing of union, it is the purpose
Yes I've just found that from another person in this thread, AGAIN, people really don't grasp it
It seems like Free Market Capitalism gets blamed for all of the horrible things Corporatism has done. You may disagree with the theory behind Capitalism all you want, but there are no historical examples of True Free Market Capitalism, the government is always meddling in economic affairs.
@cupocity303 Liberty cannot be maintained without the Rule of Law, and we definitely need a government to make sure that we have an institution to arbitrate disputes fairly (otherwise "might makes right" prevails). I think the more people learn about the Free Market and Individual Rights, the more they'll agree with them.
I have always disagreed with capitalism. I have never thought it was a good economic system. But people are extremely fickle. When our system crashed in 2008, almost everyone started questioning (and they still are questioning) whether or not capitalism is a good system. But it took an economic crash for them to start asking these questions. I would almost guarantee that if the economy picked up, those same fickle people would be praising capitalism again. But I sure won't.
I agree that the said discussion does need to take place all over the country and frequent collaboration of those discussions should be placed either on a ballot or instituted into action movements.
Paul doesn't address why places like the Soviet Union were so centralized in the first place. As soon as the USSR was created it was immediately attacked by the Americans, the British, the French, the Japanese, the Poles, and conservative counter-revolutionary forces. The global status quo seeks to crush anything that would challenge its power and authority. This is why I find this man's idea of a "bloodless" revolution in America to be more than a tad naive.
we must separate govt from the evils of modern day capitalism. the only way is to set term limits and give death penalty to any government official convicted of excess bribery crimes, and enforce regulations by paying regulators huge amounts of money so they won't be bought.
Did it ever occur to Gar that the sytem he so vociferously describes as medieval and "unjust", is actually the product of his fellow tribesmen? The media is owned outright by his people... as is the Lieberman, Goldman Sachs, as is the Federal reserve for all practical purposes...
"Judeocracy" seems to be a better suited term to describe the US system...
@cupocity303 That is a good argument except for the fact that its not. First just because a country calls it self "democratic socialist whatever" does than mean it is what the name suggest. Home made pie from the store isn't home made pie. Pure free market capitalism has never existed, governments created markets. In fact there is good evidence that it was standing armies that created what we know as markets today. Look it up.
What he fails to mention is that if you have de-centralized co-operative ownership of the means of production, you not only transcend capitalism, but also the need for the state. So "America Beyond Capitalism" is too short-sighted. What we need is anarchy.
goddamit don't call it capitalism you progressive vuckbot.. the problem is corporateism .. capitalism by definition is nothing short of evolution.. the strong survive, the weak fail.. where we are today is the strong survive and the weakest buy the government.. it's a game you can't win... forget selling books; think about what you say b4 you say it
@vNorilor That's like suggesting that someone must study scientology to get become truly educated in Christianity. Economics, at least the stuff one can study in schools today, do not apply in a resource based economy. There is no money, there are no markets, there is no ownership, there are no governments. Why would I need to study that (any more than I already have) to learn about something completely different?
@GoDrex Left-alternatives to capitalism involve making decision-making, planning, et al HOMOGENEOUS. If you can't see that the group attempting to homogenize (socialists of all kinds) the behavior of others experiences their ideology as religion-ish, you could be beyond the kind of help I can offer you. Advocates of capitalism, on the other hand, advocate HETEROGENEITY - people who have differing ideas and knowledge-sets act on them and their isolated mistakes do less damage.
@vNorilor if you can't see, that capitalism (in it's current neoliberal form) is one huge process of uniformity, then you don't know the most basic thing of the subject. If you had any interest in the subject, then you'd also know that there are socialistic ways that aren't the stalinistic totalitarianism. But sadly you just want to spew the propaganda, that you have willingly swallowed.
@tristbjorn Hahahaha! Listen, ideologue, in a market you can produce and consume whatever goods you like. Most PEOPLE are conformists, and in the face of the massive choice-set capitalism provides them, they choose similar things (Clothes, music, etc). Because you're a biased ideologue, you aren't willing to acknowledge this. You don't want to blame people, it has to be the system that does it. I understand - it's less painful than the truth.
@vNorilor What he's talking about isn't really up for debate. It is happening as you are reading this comment. The printers Mars was telling you about already exist. How will a money market society cope with the technologies that loom on the horrizon: Robust AI, Robotics, Biotech, and Nanotech? They are money and market destroyers. How will capitalism deal with planned obsolescence, ecological degradation, and technological unemployment? Answer: It can't even begin to, it's obsolete.
@elbowbiter1 It should amaze me, but here, on the internet, of course it can't. You walked in, imagining you were going to tell me what was what, and failed to even identify the disagreement that was being had. lol @ the way you listed emerging technologies as if namedropping them. Money and markets are the facilitating framework OF technological proliferation. The things you listed ARE going to vastly increase the world's abundance, and, barring a catastrophe, it will be beautiful.
@vNorilor Check the string of comments, the comment I am replying to is the one directly above my comment. I was defending Trist. I am glad to see you are aware of these looming technological fields. I wonder if you've thought hard about their implications. Before we delve into that we should address the capitalist propaganda/myth that technological proliferation requires money and markets. What makes you think that? Are you able to elaborate?
@elbowbiter1 Well, do you know anything at all about economic history? If you think engineers would have, or are going to to develop xyz technology from scratch in a vacuum and then abc technology to mass produce and deliver xyz ad infinitum, you're fantasizing. Close the browser tab currently re-playing one of the unintentionally funny Zeitgeist disasters and buy used economic textbooks for pennies on amazon. Naive political radicals need to get off of the internet and read the mainstream 1st.
@vNorilor Not much but a little. I do know a lot about history and anthropology though. Why do you think I think technology can proliferate in a vacuum? That is a strange thing to infer from what I have said to you. I am beginning to think that you are being willfully obtuse in a desperate attempt to feel superior by out douching me. All I can say is that you are better than that my friend. I recommend you step outside the mainstream a little. Get out of the box and get a new perspctve
@tristbjorn The only "socialistic ways" that aren't totalitarian are the ones you can opt out of. For instance, an entrepreneur (you?) could start a business and run it horizontally - you could purchase land and like-minded leftists could get together and develop whatever kind of commune you like - so long as people are free to leave, there is no issue. But that probably isn't what you mean - most radical leftists who use your line mean a system of councils, which is totalitarian.
@GoDrex actually, socilaism is far closer to a belief system... Marx's das kapital after all was written as a racifimento of the Bible... retaining many of its social superstitions...
capitalism is a fact of civilized society... not an "ideology or religion" by any means...
@GoDrex When the great Capital Gains savior comes, he will banish you to a Low Income family where you will spend the rest of your Fiscal years getting Trickled Down on for speaking bad of the all power Profit.
Indeed. This is largely because people have been taught to revere capitalism, and fear any deviation from it. There has been enormous vested interest in promoting the doctrine of capitalism as sacrosanct.
@GoDrex I rarely find anyone that thinks that capitalism is perfect or without flaws. However, I believe that their isn't a better alternative as of yet, at least in principle.
The biggest flaw to capitalism is the lack of belief in the power of the individual consumer. If you don't like Walmart then dont shop there.
Worker control of the means of production is revolutionary socialism. Revolutionary socialism extends democracy to the economic realm. Today we have political democracy but economic tyranny. Replace tyrannical corporations with workers' councils and the world will enter into a new stage of history: classless, democratic and free.
@Xenu Sounds good in theory but flawed in practice. I always mistrust those who think that they're soo smart, that they can micro-manage the economy of, particularly of a country of 300 mill people. Too many unintended consequences also.
I also don't see how "worker control" implies anything non-voluntary. Look up a "Worker Cooperative" and tell me how that is non voluntary?
There is a sad sort of conditioning in this country where people have an automatic pavlovian response to certain ideas because we've been taught since birth that capitalism (as we know it today) is the end all be all system and everything else is either the USSR or Mao.
Sounds like you want to run a business like a cartel. The exact same driving force behind corporatism.
In other words: "I should be able to get wealthy by controlling government, a business, people, and monopolization"
People in a corrupt society are also looking out for their own interests. It's just not "democratic" and begins to "rob choice" from others as people naturally collude for power.
BTW the guy "inventing" is hardly ever the one making the most money.
I'm only responding to your comments. Did you not say you didn't care about democracy in businesses?
All businesses are government structures. So what exactly do you mean by "independent of government" when all businesses have government protections?
A lot of our tecnology comes out of govt grants and other research. The person inventing is hardly ever the one getting wealthy. Capitalizing on an idea is not the same as inventing it.
1. I was referring to to research grants, you know for "science" & "technology"...
2. Now you're simply spouting mindless talking points.... Government creates nothing? You mean the internet you're using now, GPS, satilite communications, nuclear energy, THOUSANDS of innovations that came out of NASA and the "space age" are all nothing?
3. Wow, you seriously believe people living in anarchy with "no governance" can be successful?
Sorry, that's called "making things up" to fit your belief system.
"governmernt creates nothing" is factually incorrect. As there have literally been millions of things created by various forms of governments throughout history.
If you're going to simply make up facts, then we might as well argue about leprichauns and unicorns.
We've already estabolished that you favor collusion over democratically run businesses. Is that not correct?
The Workers Economic Bill of Rights
rainboexpo 2 weeks ago
go to Portland general assembly forums to see it
rainboexpo 2 weeks ago
Hi my name is Abin I am a musical activist. I also have studied Worker owned and democratically controlled economics. I have written a Workers economic Bill of rights based on my research.
rainboexpo 2 weeks ago
Does anyone have any plan for what to do with all the Psychopaths who (like poop) float to the top? This seems to be a more pressing issue: The fact that many of them are in charge and we can't change them. We could implement friendly systems of economics etc.. without their influence.
TheSheandoah 2 weeks ago
spare me the nonsense about visionaries. It's one thing to invent something, and its another to have a radical change forced down on the people. Democracy came through slow evolution. Everything happens in due time But the glue that holds it all together economically, is CAPITALISM. You dont have to call it Capitalism if you don't like the word, but it's still Capitalism. Abandon the concept of Capitalism and that means that nobody owns anything and everything belongs to the "people". What ppl?
1CreativeWriter 1 month ago
Cont..Part 4. That Libertarians/Conservatives don't care about people. And we don't think that about the Left, the Socialists....we just think that they are foolish. They're ignorant. I don't think they're mean. But to them, they just can't understand saying, "why don't you wanna help these people?". I DO, I just understand that your politics are hurting them. And they can't figure that out because it requires them to think. And they don't wanna think, they just wanna feel. WHAT FEELS GOOD.
1CreativeWriter 1 month ago
Part 3...A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T CONNECT THE DOTS, they don't see the unintended consequences. They say, "the road to hell is paved through good intentions". That quote came into existence for a reason. And I think a lot of people take the easy way out. Socialism on it's surface is appealing if you don't think it out. And you can feel good about yourself if you sign on to these doctrines & that's why a lot of Socialists/Libs think that Conservatives/Libertarians are actually mean. (cont part 4.)
1CreativeWriter 1 month ago
Continuing....and to the extent that people do fall through the cracks in a Capitalist system, they will be helped. But I think in a pure Free Market Capitalist system, far few people fall through those cracks because the cracks will be a lot smaller. The Govt. and their social welfare state create this culture of dependency, softening up individuals. There are a lot more people who need help, precisely because we're not ALLOWING CAPITALISM TO WORK. A lot of people just don't connect the dots.
1CreativeWriter 1 month ago
The simple solution is to is a direct 'ad valorem' tax on the value of land and natural resources. This would go a long way to creating free market effciencies and stop the concentration of ownership as proposed by Henry George and many others.
peetasmith1 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 Hold up, I wasn't going after you, just making a statement within the argument that you had going with someone else. You and I don't need to be arguing. I just had a sit down discussion with a conservative buddy of mine. It turns out that he and I agree on most issues, with compromise in the ones that we don't. I suspect that you and I agree on a lot of issues. There's no need to battle anymore, relax.
fywacia 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
Hey cupocity, you say I have declared myself the winner. Are you implying that I am a self absorbed puffed up ignorant who cannot see his own failed arguments????????? If so would you like me to prove how that is far truer for you than me? Would you like me to demonstrate how utterly ridiculous some of your arguments have been? I can quote you if you want. Remember phone bills cost more in Denmark statement, that one is my fav.
thesparitan 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 Its funny to me that you are so incredibly stupid, but it is getting tiring now. Yes, that is perfectly logical because a relative told you something you therefore should take it as a fact without an referencing or data collection, right. Yeah that's smart. But that wasn't even my actual problem with the statement, even if true it would be a stupid thing to say. Denmark beats the US in almost every metric but out of country phone calls cost more, therefore socialism is bad? WOW.
thesparitan 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 Just shut up already, holy fuck dude. Really a boxer, a fucking boxer makes your case now??? Are you fucking kidding me???
This is a joke.
thesparitan 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
I have never talked to a pro capitalist person that would ever or could ever make as bad of a case for capitalism as you have. The mere fact of this means that you must be a troll or a poe of some kind.
Cupocity, you are a polite person and its fun talking to you but you are not the person that should be defending capitalism. Leave that to others that do better jobs. Leave this in the hands of professionals. lol.
I wish you best of luck in your other endeavors.
thesparitan 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
During the progressive movement self-employed farmers and other small businesses united with urban factory workers to protect themselves from predatory corporate capitalism, and eventually helped to elect as president the populist reformer Theadore Roosevelt.
TheForwardGaze 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 Are you joking with me? Are you being satirical, by that I mean to say are you satirizing libertarian conservative positions are do you actually believe what you just said is a good argument? I managed to use the same space you did without making horrifically terrible and also comedy like arguments. I think you are trolling me sir, I do not believe you are serious and if so you are one of the most stupid people I have ever talked to.
thesparitan 1 month ago
the resource based economy - based on technical efficieny - resource preservation and conservation - shared acces to optimaly use items - and access abundance - incorporating best designs practices that consider make long lasting -repairing -recycling - reusing- upgrading goods. that incorporate solar- wind- tide- ocean current -geo thermal - solar thermal - advanced fuel cells- infrared conversion antenna - pressure transducers - thermo coupling - and many other underutilized abundant energys
MrIzzyDizzy 1 month ago
I faved because a lot of this can be applied to the UK.
So much has gone wrong; I think its time the mainstream British left started listening to its former giants, the late great Michael Foot and the still grumblin' Tony Benn, and work in a coalition towards proper democratic socialism.
niriop 1 month ago
@niriop
Not going to happen because there is no mainstream left, well not in the media anyway
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch Time for re-invention then
niriop 1 month ago
@niriop
lol, well at least time we started to use the time that we wash out cans and put them in the recycling bag on something that will make a difference in the grand scheme of society
radroatch 1 month ago
What's so bad about commies? Capitalists certainly don't take to heart the many "failed states" their system engendered, why should communists?
GodlessXVIII 1 month ago
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Alexopolux 1 month ago
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Alexopolux 1 month ago
It's "democracy" not "democray" realnews.
rajasmasala 1 month ago
This is exactly what I support. We cannot have a free society nor a sustainable way of life on this planet with the capitalist system in place.
fywacia 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 Lol, I looked on the bottom of my laptop and it said "Made in China", a communist country that took most of our jobs. What part of capitalism's failure do you not understand? Did you understand the concepts discussed in the video? Are you aware that we are in a depression brought on by the continued failure of the capitalist system? A system where there is never enough money to feed the greed of those who manipulate and control the system.
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia china does not have a communist economy and of course capitalists aren't satisfied with their income. greed is not a downfall of the system, but it drives the system. nice job creating a paragraph composed mostly of questions, though.
IncoherentCommenter 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
As you stated it is capitalism just a different form of capitalism, unfortunatly capitalism is the creation of concentration of ownership, with any concentration of ownership you are going to get corruption, this is after all why these regulationary bodies exist
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia
It is more easily understood when viewed from what is the most centralized, not what the system technically is, the more centralized the worst, within a degree of course
China is not economical communist for the most part in anything but name
I would say you don't seem to have a very good understanding of capitalism's failing as you don't seem to understand the reason why China has economical grown as it has; it is due to currency imbalances, labor cost etc
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch I'm fully aware of the situation with China as well as issues in the EU. You have to understand that my comment was in response to an absurd Fox News talking point that was used to critique the OWS movement because the used various forms of communication devices that were made by corporations to organize. As if to say that without capitalism there would be no manufacturing base, no innovation, and ultimately no progress.
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia That was the premise of the comment that I answered. Fox News on the other hand attempted to say that the OWS movement was anti business. When in reality it's not anti business, it's against big corporations buying out or elected representatives by out spending the public. And it's against the inequality that this creates as well as the erosion of our civil liberties which is currently taking place in order to suppress the public's growing backlash against the banks.
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia
Sorry I misunderstood then, fox is nothing but a joke news channel, it's just ashame that people really buy into it, I guess the shiny blue pill looks tastier
That argument can quite easily be turned on its head and show how a market has been very successfully monopolized passed the point of many viable alternatives that allow for greater innovation and manufacturing base
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch My point was aimed at the logic used in that persons statement because corporations have wiped out our manufacturing base. The fact that my laptop which that person mentioned was made in china simply demonstrates the irony of the situation. There's a second part of my first response to you which you won't see because I responded to myself by accident.
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia
Yes it is an irony how neo-capitalism is claimed to be an efficient system, yet we ship the majority of products from nearly the other side of the world wasting resources by the bucket, not to mention the waste behind the produces themselves, of course there are good reasons why neo-capitalism has these ironies, not to say they are not capitalist in nature
Can't really find much fault with the second part anyways
Interested to hear your position on Europe as you mentioned it earlier?
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch My chief complaint with capitalism is that in order for it to properly function there must be inequality and continued growth and consumption. This is the reason why it's unsustainable in a world with an out of control population and dwindling resources. In 50 years there will be more development in India and China and the current carbon based economy won't be able to handle it. Neo-capitalism is a symptom of a global system in collapse that few people fully understand.
fywacia 1 month ago
@radroatch Go to the real news networks channel and search their archives for videos about European austerity. There's a few featuring lengthy interviews by real economists in contrast to the corporate media's pundits. If you remember back to the spring and summer the corporate media were promoting austerity measures in Europe. The general claim was that democratic socialism was the culprit in the economic failure of Greece, Spain, and so on. Continued...
fywacia 1 month ago
@radroatch This was done to further demonize the social safety net and to condition the public to accept austerity measures here. The corporate right who framed Obama who is an agent of finance capital as a socialist were busy attempting to connect his failing recovery measures with the failing economic system in Europe. The truth is that the real failure is the concept of the EU. You have countries competing against one another under the same currency. Continued
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia
I wouldn't call it a symptom, I would call it more the means, yes true there are worse systems we could currently be under, but it is also true that capitalism is driving us into those conditions through its function; one thing that is not often accounted is that capitalism drives populace growth, not just that it is a situational condition
It is very scary, under the exponential function we can see how unsustainable this all is
I watch many such interviews and believe that the...
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch Your right, it's also the means of the collapse. And capitalism can lead to fascism when the corporations buy out the government which is what we have right now. Obama threatened a veto of the NDAA because there was an amendment that prevented American citizens to be held, tortured, and executed without evidence or trial. He pushed for this because they are preparing for martial law due to economic collapse. The torture and execution provisions are a classified..
fywacia 1 month ago
@radroatch portion of the NDAA. You will have to dig hard to verify it. And this is all a result of a failing capitalist system. In my opinion an economic cycle should not end in martial law. And the difficulty is in getting people to understand this because they have been conditioned to treat capitalism as a religion. And now we have a for profit prison system, a for profit justice system, a for profit system of national defense, a for profit healthcare system, etc.
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia
I think it has more subtle aspects, but there is defiantly ligit' worries to that effect, this system is close to becoming totally fascism and the only thing that will stop that is social intervention, unfortunately it will also drive it as force will be used against it, new bills that allow the force
this bill and the piracy bills being pushed in both the UK and the US (the internet should have similar standing as in satellite orbiting space, as no nation can truly claim ownership)...
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia
...Watch a doc' on the investment theory of politics, it outlines how much the money is a factor in politics and the repercussions
Capitalism is a system that can only suit the public good on exchanges more individual in nature, not on state scale, it simple does not fit the desired outcome of using the profit motive, being inflexible
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch We literally make money from our own self destruction and everything has finally and very quickly come to a climatic crossroads where our choices are very limited. I would say that America's true national religion is capitalism and that Christianity which is claimed by 85% of people to be their religion is simply for saving face in public. In this country charity is considered a loss of revenue or a reason for a tax credit rather than a necessary human behavior.
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia
...and conglomerates over nations and conglomerates, moving towards market states
So the goals of such a union will serve those with the greatest power, everything else is a pos'/neg' externalities; my evidence would be just look at where the money went and where the power is condensing
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch I'm having trouble following what you are saying. Are you saying that the Euro central currency's purpose is to control inflation by preventing the devaluing of one member nations currency over another when hard times arrive? And that the problems associated with the economic meltdown in Europe are being caused by external factors for the most part rather than the actual design of the trade union?
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia
I was talking about domestic inflation and how the most powerful nations have kept it the lowest, Germany being the worst offender, giving huge advantage on the other members as they are undercut by the cheaper domestic production capability, the other countries cannot currency adjust to counter
No, I wouldn't say that, it is to complicated for a few 500 posts, but things externally are causes such as market states of other currencies attacking the euros value, 'national insurance'...
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia
... effectively being short sold, other economies crashing in a very open system
In design though, it was very clear, and openly and continually expressed, that it would fail, it was also foreseeable what such failing would cause to happen, in fact I go further and say this was intended to happen as we are seeing it is causing the largest power shift in Europe in at least half a decade, and massive transfer of wealth, benefiting the designer and their funders in many cases
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia
I would say it has been used in a very similar way as religion has been by the controlling elite throughout history
Charity is anti-capitalist literally, human ethics are only seen as PR to firms
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia
The exponential function also applies to these other factors as well often
I put it under the broader terms of indoctrination and coercion, religion is a form of it and has and still is used as a method to maintain institution just like any other form, a society not controlled by force will have to be controlled by other means, we live in times that are the most technologically advanced in doing this
Even the word charity irks me, social responsibility should not be viewed in such a way
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia
... rapid centralization of Europe is one of the terrible calamities people will look back in horror about, the truth shows that the socialist debt of countries cannot be counter by strong 'monetary union' or austerity, not to mention stopping a depression
At the end is where I disagree, the EU and the euro are only failing in the general perception of the aims, not in the true aims of the central power in such union, the EU really is a form of fiscal and political control by nations...
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia That's right, "Real economists" agree with your political prejudices, and the ones who don't are pundits involved in a mass conspiracy to demonize all good things on earth. This is called an ideological narrative, and it's a paranoid one.
vNorilor 1 month ago
@radroatch The biggest reason for the debt and unemployment in Greece. Spain, and other is because Germany has taken a much greater share of the manufacturing base leaving other countries in hardship. And then these countries are forced to borrow from the same bankers who created the trade union. My point is that we are being manipulated like fools by our media who is controlled by multinational corporations and international banks.
fywacia 1 month ago
@fywacia
Yes, I outline how they have done it above, not only that but the nations are made to surrender sovereignty and democracy, look at the technocrat banker mario monty I think he's called
Papers are around 65% ads, this means that the main customers to them are the corp's and the product is the control of the reader to the corp's interest, as Chomsky puts it, the ads are the content, the rest is the filler pretty much
radroatch 1 month ago
@fywacia China is not communist (or socialist), China is not a liberal market society. It is mercantilist in the vein of 16th & 17th century European states. It success at ''taking jobs'' so recently is because their Marxist & Maoist policies kept workers so poor for so long that, now they are very cheap relative to wealthier nations workers I would hardly call that a win for ''communist'' China.
Malthus0 1 month ago
Yeah, all you can do is make excuses! The bottom line is that China is stronger and more capable that US, and it finances USA! That is what matters! And yes, China is communist, so much for decades of US propaganda and scare tactics! What h as the world come to when USA depends on a communist state.
tropickman 1 month ago
Why don't you also mention that US was developed on free labor, called slaves, and stealing of resources from smaller nations and native Indians!
tropickman 1 month ago
@tropickman That's natural law. If you can conquer a weaker population, you make the laws and the system. When the Mexicans are able to take down the U.S. militarily, they can take over and kick out all the Anglo-sexons if they choose to. Until then, it is what it is. I'm a product of my environment. I didn't own slaves or kill Indians, nobody should hold it against me because I'm an ancestor of those people.
ATGwrestling 1 month ago
Why is it that morons have drank the Kool Aid about there being no alternative to capitalism?!
That the only alternative is communism?!
WHAT NONSENSE!!!
zoticus1 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
the "best" is not working anymore, capitalism is a stage in the evolution of mankind, after capitalism there is always fascism.This is because the nature of capital allows a minority to consolidate power. Just because its all YOU can imagine does not discredit the FACT there are other alternatives that take the strengths of all systems and put them together.
Your benign response illustrates the lack of creativity and strengthens my original statement,read it again!
zoticus1 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
The size of the government is not good nor bad, its how the regulation is applied.
This is the nature of capitalism, to be like water and find the easiest path, politics and regulation allow this, thus crony capitalism and soon following that fascism.
Its a natural progression of capitalism, and a fast one without regulation.
zoticus1 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
Lastly if you cannot see the huge amount of waste, human and energy non renewable that is spent on keeping this antiquated system implemented then chances are you have a dogmatic notion to said system.
The reality is that capitalism OPPRESSES human ingenuity and creative spirits via the process of leverage,do you even know what planned obsolescence is?!!
Suppression of technology ?!
Your coveted system is GARBAGE!
And just because I disagree does not make me a commie.
zoticus1 1 month ago 4
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 I think that there is a best solution is libertarian socialism, reaching it though the current systems is the really hard part I think
We need to create democratic work environments such as co-ops, until we have this we will never have democracy, or free speech, or true liberty
We need to have decentralization, this doesn't mean removal of social functions as most anarcho-capitalist/librals want, it just means greater democratic function, especially on the local level
radroatch 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
Who said I was forcing it on anyone, kind of the point to lib'Soc'(LS) is that nothing is forced on anyone; I do believe that a educated public with free speech and free media will end up wanting LS though intellectual understanding
The flaw in most the comment neolib' thinking (especially in the US) is that it has arisen though manipulation of opinion through the media based on ideology, there is a reason for this, it can be exploited, eg individual freedom=divide and conquer...
radroatch 1 month ago
@cupocity303
... forced Collectivism=true democratic means of local consensus
LS could not exist though force
radroatch 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
Well I'm not arguing for a pure democratic society under its most accurate definition, majority vote is not the only form of democracy, such percents would most likely be cause for veto, besides an accurate of such things is normally above 2%
Since a more democratic society would have more control eg votes, more necessity would sit on such protection to the individual and more reason to install such constitutional systems...
radroatch 1 month ago
@cupocity303
...However such a constitution should be applicable unto itself unlike that of the US's which is illegitimate under its own doctrine, the part to which you speak of, such illegitimates may account towards the checks and balances that are moralist in a way that insured the lines of the silk pocketed idols that created it, thinkers in schizophrenia with Nash equilibrium
radroatch 1 month ago
@zoticus1 Parecon is my system of choice.
thesparitan 1 month ago
@zoticus1
Yes I was going to write about that to finish the last comment but I was you wrote about it, Ireland is another of the worst effected, they did by using their increased political and economical power to not increase inflation on target with other nations, my point earlier is that this is not the failing of union, it is the purpose
Yes I've just found that from another person in this thread, AGAIN, people really don't grasp it
radroatch 1 month ago
The only things mainstream press outlets usually cover these days are their own asses. Enough said.
Angry6676 1 month ago
It seems like Free Market Capitalism gets blamed for all of the horrible things Corporatism has done. You may disagree with the theory behind Capitalism all you want, but there are no historical examples of True Free Market Capitalism, the government is always meddling in economic affairs.
stevewellz 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 Liberty cannot be maintained without the Rule of Law, and we definitely need a government to make sure that we have an institution to arbitrate disputes fairly (otherwise "might makes right" prevails). I think the more people learn about the Free Market and Individual Rights, the more they'll agree with them.
stevewellz 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@stevewellz "there are no historical examples of True Free Market Capitalism,"
There's no such thing as "Free Market Capitalism". The term is self contradicting.
Mestilf22 1 month ago
I have always disagreed with capitalism. I have never thought it was a good economic system. But people are extremely fickle. When our system crashed in 2008, almost everyone started questioning (and they still are questioning) whether or not capitalism is a good system. But it took an economic crash for them to start asking these questions. I would almost guarantee that if the economy picked up, those same fickle people would be praising capitalism again. But I sure won't.
burnindownthehouse 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@burnindownthehouse Real footage of real banks causing real problems.
Watch How To Rob A Bank at UmotionS.com
See the trailer at my channel. The Link is in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 1 month ago
its more like cantialism
jordler 1 month ago
The final stage of Capitalism is Imperialism. Where the slaves are marginalized while the blood suckers exploit labor and resources abroad.
mba2ceo 1 month ago
@Xenu Yes, Comrade! Equality, Classless and free. Democracy in the economy,
Workers Control Over Production!☭
noprofitmaximierung 1 month ago
I agree that the said discussion does need to take place all over the country and frequent collaboration of those discussions should be placed either on a ballot or instituted into action movements.
Snowflake70 1 month ago
Concentration of ownership equals concentration of power.......exactly.
Mahoivlich 1 month ago
Paul doesn't address why places like the Soviet Union were so centralized in the first place. As soon as the USSR was created it was immediately attacked by the Americans, the British, the French, the Japanese, the Poles, and conservative counter-revolutionary forces. The global status quo seeks to crush anything that would challenge its power and authority. This is why I find this man's idea of a "bloodless" revolution in America to be more than a tad naive.
blackiron60 1 month ago
we must separate govt from the evils of modern day capitalism. the only way is to set term limits and give death penalty to any government official convicted of excess bribery crimes, and enforce regulations by paying regulators huge amounts of money so they won't be bought.
mrzack888 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@mrzack888 Real footage of real banks causing real problems.
Watch How To Rob A Bank at UmotionS.com
See the trailer at my channel. The Link is in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 1 month ago
Did it ever occur to Gar that the sytem he so vociferously describes as medieval and "unjust", is actually the product of his fellow tribesmen? The media is owned outright by his people... as is the Lieberman, Goldman Sachs, as is the Federal reserve for all practical purposes...
"Judeocracy" seems to be a better suited term to describe the US system...
lictor313 1 month ago
As long as we have a non-replaceable fossil fuel based economy the welfare-banker-warfare elite Status Quo will continue.
JanRichardus 1 month ago
We are already way beyond capitalism, we are in a state of fascism. Huge difference.
PleaseStayTuned 1 month ago 7
@PleaseStayTuned agreed!
rdavian 1 month ago
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Alexopolux 1 month ago
@PleaseStayTuned capitalism leads to fascism.
thesparitan 1 month ago in playlist More videos from TheRealNews 2
@thesparitan
I would go further and say capitalism a transitional process to a centralized system, most probably fascism.
radroatch 1 month ago
@radroatch Hear hear.
thesparitan 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303 That is a good argument except for the fact that its not. First just because a country calls it self "democratic socialist whatever" does than mean it is what the name suggest. Home made pie from the store isn't home made pie. Pure free market capitalism has never existed, governments created markets. In fact there is good evidence that it was standing armies that created what we know as markets today. Look it up.
thesparitan 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
ya, it's called capitalism. best anti-monopoly regulation = free market.
JackofOneTrade567 1 month ago
Chemtrails!
changethecurrent 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@changethecurrent Real footage of real banks causing real problems.
Watch How To Rob A Bank at UmotionS.com
See the trailer at my channel. The Link is in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 1 month ago
What he fails to mention is that if you have de-centralized co-operative ownership of the means of production, you not only transcend capitalism, but also the need for the state. So "America Beyond Capitalism" is too short-sighted. What we need is anarchy.
silversoul7 1 month ago
Marx and Engles were promoters of European aristocracy. Pseudo-rebellion via co-opting of sundry movements, as planned in NYC in 1829.
Promotion of hatred upon the middle class. It's rather obvious.
kroovyandcal 1 month ago
goddamit don't call it capitalism you progressive vuckbot.. the problem is corporateism .. capitalism by definition is nothing short of evolution.. the strong survive, the weak fail.. where we are today is the strong survive and the weakest buy the government.. it's a game you can't win... forget selling books; think about what you say b4 you say it
CocoaLuv22 1 month ago
I'll answer the last question for you Gar. A resource based economy. Money and markets are obsolete.
elbowbiter1 1 month ago
@elbowbiter1 bahahahaha - study economics before discussing it, you ignoramus.
vNorilor 1 month ago
@vNorilor That's like suggesting that someone must study scientology to get become truly educated in Christianity. Economics, at least the stuff one can study in schools today, do not apply in a resource based economy. There is no money, there are no markets, there is no ownership, there are no governments. Why would I need to study that (any more than I already have) to learn about something completely different?
elbowbiter1 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@elbowbiter1 Real footage of real banks causing real problems.
Watch How To Rob A Bank at UmotionS.com
See the trailer at my channel. The Link is in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 1 month ago
2011 america=soviet union, its a communist state!
Hillsillverr 1 month ago
Capitalism is a religion to many people. It's nearly impossible to convince them that there's anything bad about it.
GoDrex 1 month ago 36
@GoDrex Left-alternatives to capitalism involve making decision-making, planning, et al HOMOGENEOUS. If you can't see that the group attempting to homogenize (socialists of all kinds) the behavior of others experiences their ideology as religion-ish, you could be beyond the kind of help I can offer you. Advocates of capitalism, on the other hand, advocate HETEROGENEITY - people who have differing ideas and knowledge-sets act on them and their isolated mistakes do less damage.
vNorilor 1 month ago
@vNorilor if you can't see, that capitalism (in it's current neoliberal form) is one huge process of uniformity, then you don't know the most basic thing of the subject. If you had any interest in the subject, then you'd also know that there are socialistic ways that aren't the stalinistic totalitarianism. But sadly you just want to spew the propaganda, that you have willingly swallowed.
tristbjorn 1 month ago
@tristbjorn Hahahaha! Listen, ideologue, in a market you can produce and consume whatever goods you like. Most PEOPLE are conformists, and in the face of the massive choice-set capitalism provides them, they choose similar things (Clothes, music, etc). Because you're a biased ideologue, you aren't willing to acknowledge this. You don't want to blame people, it has to be the system that does it. I understand - it's less painful than the truth.
vNorilor 1 month ago
@vNorilor What he's talking about isn't really up for debate. It is happening as you are reading this comment. The printers Mars was telling you about already exist. How will a money market society cope with the technologies that loom on the horrizon: Robust AI, Robotics, Biotech, and Nanotech? They are money and market destroyers. How will capitalism deal with planned obsolescence, ecological degradation, and technological unemployment? Answer: It can't even begin to, it's obsolete.
elbowbiter1 1 month ago
@elbowbiter1 It should amaze me, but here, on the internet, of course it can't. You walked in, imagining you were going to tell me what was what, and failed to even identify the disagreement that was being had. lol @ the way you listed emerging technologies as if namedropping them. Money and markets are the facilitating framework OF technological proliferation. The things you listed ARE going to vastly increase the world's abundance, and, barring a catastrophe, it will be beautiful.
vNorilor 1 month ago
@vNorilor Check the string of comments, the comment I am replying to is the one directly above my comment. I was defending Trist. I am glad to see you are aware of these looming technological fields. I wonder if you've thought hard about their implications. Before we delve into that we should address the capitalist propaganda/myth that technological proliferation requires money and markets. What makes you think that? Are you able to elaborate?
elbowbiter1 1 month ago
@elbowbiter1 Well, do you know anything at all about economic history? If you think engineers would have, or are going to to develop xyz technology from scratch in a vacuum and then abc technology to mass produce and deliver xyz ad infinitum, you're fantasizing. Close the browser tab currently re-playing one of the unintentionally funny Zeitgeist disasters and buy used economic textbooks for pennies on amazon. Naive political radicals need to get off of the internet and read the mainstream 1st.
vNorilor 1 month ago
@vNorilor Not much but a little. I do know a lot about history and anthropology though. Why do you think I think technology can proliferate in a vacuum? That is a strange thing to infer from what I have said to you. I am beginning to think that you are being willfully obtuse in a desperate attempt to feel superior by out douching me. All I can say is that you are better than that my friend. I recommend you step outside the mainstream a little. Get out of the box and get a new perspctve
elbowbiter1 1 month ago
@tristbjorn The only "socialistic ways" that aren't totalitarian are the ones you can opt out of. For instance, an entrepreneur (you?) could start a business and run it horizontally - you could purchase land and like-minded leftists could get together and develop whatever kind of commune you like - so long as people are free to leave, there is no issue. But that probably isn't what you mean - most radical leftists who use your line mean a system of councils, which is totalitarian.
vNorilor 1 month ago
@vNorilor Your scope seems very narrow.
ie, Think Ancient Athenian democracy.. however machines as the slaves.
daily participation in decision process. People lived simply because everywhere was dedicated to debates & luxury.
Imagine everyone having 3d printers, meeting on the web, best ideas ruling.. everyone prints a block & takes somewhere to build a stadium.
a completely different economic paradigm. better than anything capitalism could make.. no centralized capital required.
marsCubed 1 month ago
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vNorilor 1 month ago
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vNorilor 1 month ago
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vNorilor 1 month ago
@GoDrex Sadly, that's true.
bamboo4tameshigiri 1 month ago
@GoDrex actually, socilaism is far closer to a belief system... Marx's das kapital after all was written as a racifimento of the Bible... retaining many of its social superstitions...
capitalism is a fact of civilized society... not an "ideology or religion" by any means...
lictor313 1 month ago
@GoDrex When the great Capital Gains savior comes, he will banish you to a Low Income family where you will spend the rest of your Fiscal years getting Trickled Down on for speaking bad of the all power Profit.
blackyblackblack505 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@GoDrex Real footage of real banks causing real problems.
Watch How To Rob A Bank at UmotionS.com
See the trailer at my channel. The Link is in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 1 month ago
@GoDrex
Indeed. This is largely because people have been taught to revere capitalism, and fear any deviation from it. There has been enormous vested interest in promoting the doctrine of capitalism as sacrosanct.
MindWinger 1 month ago
@GoDrex I think it has more to do with each individual's definition of capitalism.
MustacheVerra 1 month ago
@GoDrex I rarely find anyone that thinks that capitalism is perfect or without flaws. However, I believe that their isn't a better alternative as of yet, at least in principle.
The biggest flaw to capitalism is the lack of belief in the power of the individual consumer. If you don't like Walmart then dont shop there.
Spectre11B 1 month ago
@Spectre11B "lack of belief in the power of the individual consumer."
==
See, this is exactly what GoDrelx is talking about, religious belief.
When in the history this "the power of consumer" so big that proven to be effective to solve all the problems about capitalism?
And if it ever did, why it didn't keep it that way?
allgoo19 1 month ago
This channel = Paul Jay viciously parodying leftists who don't understand the topics they discuss?
vNorilor 1 month ago
Worker control of the means of production is revolutionary socialism. Revolutionary socialism extends democracy to the economic realm. Today we have political democracy but economic tyranny. Replace tyrannical corporations with workers' councils and the world will enter into a new stage of history: classless, democratic and free.
Xenu 1 month ago 36
@Xenu "Today we have political democracy..."
I don't think so. I think we still have some illusion of democracy. But even that illusion is failing at an increasing pace.
greggh 1 month ago
@Xenu That's what the Communists said. :-P
agentm83 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Xenu Real footage of real banks causing real problems.
Watch How To Rob A Bank at UmotionS.com
See the trailer at my channel. The Link is in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 1 month ago
@Xenu Sounds good in theory but flawed in practice. I always mistrust those who think that they're soo smart, that they can micro-manage the economy of, particularly of a country of 300 mill people. Too many unintended consequences also.
cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
I think you misunderstood what @Xenu was saying. He certainly didn't imply a technicractic regime.
Although I personally wouldn't mind a true uncorrupted technocracy assuming the goals were clear and there were sufficient checks and balances.
oolong2 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
I have no idea what "solialist-esque" means...
I also don't see how "worker control" implies anything non-voluntary. Look up a "Worker Cooperative" and tell me how that is non voluntary?
There is a sad sort of conditioning in this country where people have an automatic pavlovian response to certain ideas because we've been taught since birth that capitalism (as we know it today) is the end all be all system and everything else is either the USSR or Mao.
oolong2 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
Sounds like you want to run a business like a cartel. The exact same driving force behind corporatism.
In other words: "I should be able to get wealthy by controlling government, a business, people, and monopolization"
People in a corrupt society are also looking out for their own interests. It's just not "democratic" and begins to "rob choice" from others as people naturally collude for power.
BTW the guy "inventing" is hardly ever the one making the most money.
oolong2 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
I'm only responding to your comments. Did you not say you didn't care about democracy in businesses?
All businesses are government structures. So what exactly do you mean by "independent of government" when all businesses have government protections?
A lot of our tecnology comes out of govt grants and other research. The person inventing is hardly ever the one getting wealthy. Capitalizing on an idea is not the same as inventing it.
Taxes? Please.
Conditioning...
oolong2 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
1. I was referring to to research grants, you know for "science" & "technology"...
2. Now you're simply spouting mindless talking points.... Government creates nothing? You mean the internet you're using now, GPS, satilite communications, nuclear energy, THOUSANDS of innovations that came out of NASA and the "space age" are all nothing?
3. Wow, you seriously believe people living in anarchy with "no governance" can be successful?
Please end your conditioning...
oolong2 1 month ago
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cupocity303 1 month ago
@cupocity303
Sorry, that's called "making things up" to fit your belief system.
"governmernt creates nothing" is factually incorrect. As there have literally been millions of things created by various forms of governments throughout history.
If you're going to simply make up facts, then we might as well argue about leprichauns and unicorns.
We've already estabolished that you favor collusion over democratically run businesses. Is that not correct?
oolong2 1 month ago