The only group I know of in South Africa is MACS (Medieval Armed Combat Society of South Africa) in Johannesburg and in Pretoria. I think there are some people in Cape Town too but all I can find about them are a mail adress.
I've got a question: I hope anybody could give me some advice. I just started to do practise historical european material arts. Atm I go to a trainingsession once a week (about 2 h) and I also practice at home. In my opinion I have to become much stronger :/ Anybody an idea how to reach that aim? The technique itself's not the problem but oh well - *sigh*
@animewerewolf "In my opinion I have to become much stronger :/" I have the same problem. =) The only thing I can think of is, train. It's well tried and trusted method for building muscle. Look up how other martial artists train and copy them. There are some good videos on youtube. Aaron Pynenberg have some videos that are good for motivation. user/TheCollegeofCombat like: watch?v=17u6m8pRpLs watch?v=YlZiXq5O4rU watch?v=ZsvkZMfoJWo Good luck in your practice.
@animewerewolf Get some free weights and learn how to use them, or head to a gym and use theirs. Go for endurance (25 reps of whatever weight you can manage, keep increasing weight each time) rather than power. Alternatively just do some body weight exercises (pushups, leg raises, lunges etc) and your normal sparring every week and you'll get there eventually. We all start somewhere :)
@Makrond Thank you very much for your advices. I've done all those things for "a while" now :,D started training just some weeks after I posted that and my strenght has already increased. Though I think I don't manage 25 reps. Usually I do 15, but I might try it that way =D
@animewerewolf 15 is certainly a good number as well, especially if you're comfortable with it. Good to hear you're enjoying HEMA and improving yourself. :D
@animewerewolf Train but focus of plyometrics to build explosive strength and agility training.. Run of the mill weight lifting may (but not necessarily) bulk you up too much and affect directional agility. Dont skimp on cardio either: greater cardio endurance allows you to keep a lower resting heart rate that means you can keep focused and concentrate without being affected by fatigue. Interdisperce sprinting in your running too:you need to learn to move off the mark quickly sometimes.
I'm awaiting ARMA membership, so I'm going to say this before representing the organization might prevent me from doing so.
EVERY east vs west argument I've seen on youtube consists of an eastern practitioner defending his pride, vs a HEMA practitioner defending the right of his art to exist.
I'm sick to death of convos about "my" martial heritage. An exclusive endeavor, being peppered with the pride wounded bickering of non-practitioners.
This is pretty old footage, and I'm guessing current ARMA has probably changed. What is wierd about the WSA guys though is how their so keen on steel and nylon swords for free sparring yet dont care to protect their throat or lower torso properly, like in Kendo. The result is very little thrusting and few strikes to the belly. The lack of thrusts is really interesting, considering the status of the 2 hander longersword in WSA. Thrusting is pretty much what the longsword is optimised for.
Longsword is not just a thrusting weapon. granted the straight blade does mechanically thrust extremely well. but the longsword as a whole does everything very well and the entire sword is a weapon from the blades edges and point to its guard and pommel, all have many uses and ways to use them. Much of the time it depends on the swordsman. Some of us prefer an even cut and trust style some tend to go with cutting and slicing with an occasional thrust thrown in.
As for protection, the ARMA guys are superb in their control during contact sparring many of them have done enough of it that they can sense when to slow down a blow enough before it does much if any real damage.
Again it just depends on the swordsman, Ive studied the western longsword now for about a decade and I prefer quick cuts and slices and none of my students wear any real toso protection, but they do wear fencing masks that protect the neck as well. Straight blades also dont really leave room for cuts accross a torso like in kendo. Longsword is alot of tight cross cutting and vertical cuts and slices aimed largely at arms head/neck and legs. when trained properly you do learn to slow down thusts
Judo/Aikido can be integrated into Kendo easily. Kendo aims to perfect the unarmored swordfight from the point where swords are drawn to the point where they bind. The only techniques studied at the bind are withdrawing strikes. HEMA students critque Kendo as being too limited in scope, but equally, by trying to master a multitude of diciplines and techniques at once, one can say HEMA WSA is too unfocused. Hema students risk being jacks of all trades and masters of none.
"the only techniques studied at the bind are withdrawing strikes" wow, no binden or winden? (sorry, I don't know what it is called in Japanese) You guys are missing the heart of swordsmanship.
There is plenty to study and gain competence in before you get to techniques beyond the bind. Footwork, good form, angles of attack, precision, reading your opponent, reading for openings, stamina, developing speed etc. It is amazing how HEMA students already consider themselves adept at fighting from the onset of a fight with all the guards used. After only 10 years of studying the opening stage of a fight you guys are rushing straight into winden and ringen before mastering the basics.
A wholistic approach to combat training is just as effective as one that requires a variety of disciplines with narrow focii.
Escrima, like Hema, uses a wholistic approach, and novices are trained in single-blade, double blade, dagger and unarmed techniques right from the start. Are Escrima students also jacks of all trades and masters of none? Because I've watched Escrima practitioners do better than hold their own against Kendo practitioners. And that was when I was in Kendo myself.
You mean holistic? Good points though. Given that a 2 hander sword outranges the short sticks typically used in Escrima I'd expect a skilled kendoka to do well against them. Most 'kendoka vs escrima' matches I've seen do not include the thrust because of safety issues. This means the escrimador seems to do better than would be the case if thrusting was included.
@OmteZero I find this funny when these arts were developed for/by people who would have had to learn many arts at once in a limited amount of time. Warriors have always trained in as many arts as they could, would you insult a SF soldier because in addition to learning long range marksmanship, ha also trains with pistol, sub machine-guns, carbines, missile launchers, etc.. while learning tactics for urban, jungle, and dessert combat/survival?
I see a lot of lurching, hunching, forward leaning, which not only makes you unstable, is bad for your joints, but also presents your face as a big ass target.
Doesn't HEMA stress heavily on proper body mechanics and structure?
Fool guard is pictured like that, with leaning forward, since it's purpose is to invite a strike in the head and quickly retaliate with low strikes. Lurching is more like a personal style of Aaron, I noticed that as well... I've also seen many kendokas to "shake" their point, I think it's done to confuse your opponent. You can't see the blade fully when your opponent is in fool guard, so if you notice a motion with peripheral vision you can think that he's attacking while he's just deceiving you
@Ranziel1: Then if the opponent thrusts strongly, it becomes a matter of speed, in which case why bother training technique? I've seen some of the treatises, and it shows the Alber guard done with a shift of the weight (with hips and legs) to place the body in a deceptive face-leading position to fascilitate the feint you mentioned. But never have I heard of leaning forward from the waist/hips where the stance becomes unsound in terms of stability and leverage. Interesting.
@VorpalDrake It does, though that leaning is probably done with a purpose. I'd be pretty tempted to give the fellow a good poke in the mask with my sword, and that would be exactly what he wants.
In such situation he would hardly be able to genereate enough pressure to actually cut him, beside that, getting proper edge alignment required for a cut would also be a big problem.
@CrimsonEmpire Remeber, sword edges are more chisel-like than knife-like. Merely pressing the edge of a sword against someones belly, even when it's only covered with a shirt, would probably cause, at most, a superficial wound. Aaron's takedown and subsequent pommel-bash would have definitively ended the fight.
@CrimsonEmpire Against bare flesh? Maybe. Through even light padding? Unlikely. The edge of a sword is meant to withstand some pretty mean abuse, and so it isn't really sharp like a knife or a razor. It needs to be able to cleave flesh when swung with force, so it has an edge to be sure but, generally (and by generally I mean for the types of swords represented in this video), they wouldn't be sharp enough to gut someone with just a quick swipe or draw.
@CrimsonEmpire It probably wouldn't be a pleasant experience to have a sword drug across you as the waster is drug across Aaron in this vid, but it probably wouldn't result in a debilitating or lethal wound, which is why the fight didn't stop there.
I agree with your point, but as an aside, chisels are normally kept much sharper than most knives. If they're not kept razor sharp they tear wood fibers rather than slicing them, so no cabinetmaker worth his salt lets his chisels grow dull.
so blunts are the standard, then? Seems like for contact bouts you'd want something a little less painful. But then again, there's something to be said for control and intent.
Hey that's Aaron Pynenberg, I just checked the ARMA website, it has more details about his fights..I served with him in Bosnia, he's a real __kicker! We trained all the time, I am sure he's holding back here. I am impressed with the skills presented here I need to check into this stuff!
you served with Aaron! That's awesome. Ask around on the forums if you're interested, I'm sure we can get you in contact with one of the study groups.
No, "the guy who keeps owning everyone else" was playing his prize for longsword. Clements is standing in the corner, with the staff. The prize player, fought some 90 or so bouts in an hour continuously and I believe won all but 17 or 18 of them I don't remember the exact numbers.
90 bouts, 73 wins, 17 losses. He's a monster, and a frickin' machine. So sad he was born into this era of unappreciated sword-arts. I'm sure he could have made a name for himself in service of some kingdom ages ago.
I was very recently educated about medieval and Renaissance martial arts. I was fairly ignorant about it I thought that they simply hacked and slashed until someone dropped. I suppose that I was way off when I learned about ARMA. I am now trying to get several study groups in Ky.
Omg, I wish I was living somewhere where I can join ARMA... See I'm doing an intensive research for a comic I'm working on, which I want to be based on REAL Medieval fighting, not unrealistic, modern crap. Problem is, I can't truly do so by just reading, I need to do it for myself! This is so frustrating!
Have a plan that dynamically changes with your opponents actions. Each millisecond counts. Know your response. He parries, you continue your attack, he parries again, disengage and hit him.
A fight is not a continual stream of hits and parries. There is feinting, measuring of distance, regaining balance, footwork. If a pause where one does any of the above seems odd to you stop getting your sword knowledge from star wars. I seriously did not understand the point of your commentary.
The point is to hit the other guy, in such a way, that it would have fatally wounded or incapacitated the opponent, had the weapons been real, without having the same done to oneself.
Well, blades are sharp. If you muscles are cut, how are you going to lift that sword? The sting is more than enough to cause you to flinch if not pause. Which then may be followed by repeated cuts. 2 cuts is all you need to destroy any use of your arm.
You don't need to kill the guy in one hit. A cut is more than enough to lead into death.
.
If you wish for this to be "realistic" instead of sport. Then why not grab the guy's hand?
If you cut a guys arm, then yes, the muscles, and quite possibly the whole arm, will be cut (Two cuts, isn't necessarily needed. One'll probably do).
That would lead to him/her being, as I said, incapacitated, and therefore having lost that round/bout/whatever you wanna call it.
HEMA practitioners DO grab the opponents hand (amongst other wrestling stuff), actually, but only if we get close enough, as you would otherwise only leave your hand open, to be cut to pieces.
With padded swords and modified shinai (no comments on whether one or the other sucks, please), the hit has to have enough force, to actually have killed or incapacitated the opponent.
If it's only a little light touch, that wouldn't have made more then a little flesh wound, with a sharp, it doesn't count.
(with wood and steel, you tend to be more careful though, so I don't know if it work with that as well. I haven't sparred with those)
I'm an Asian/Greco martial arts practitioner and I've been watching ARMA guys for some time. One of these days, I'll convert :D. One question I've been trying to figure out, what is the difference in philosophy between ARMA and HEMA?
As I see you are from the US, I'd recommend joining ARMA.
Some within ARMA, certainly most of the top people, do tend to be too sure of themselves, and tend to overestimate experience, as a indicator of whether or not they are correct. (which, along with unfair generalizations about the rest of the HEMA community, has creates friction with the rest of the community at times)
They're still quite good though.
The other groups in the US, are a bit hit and miss.
Great to see people who really go at it with real weapons. There's similar Tournament using full weight wood weapons for Chinese Swordsman this May 10, see-
WHo is Aaraon? I'm familiar with some of the names in Arma, but not this one? Anyways a question: I'm 17, and keen on learning german longsword. I've got an arma group about 1 hour near me. Would I be able to join due to my age?
Wow. That was...interesting. What flavor of longsword/wrestling was that intended to be? I'll assume German, since I'm reasonably familiar with Fiore and that wasn't it.
Most ARMA members focus on German longsword. However, ARMA members do study both German and Italian longsword and for the most part do not see them as two different systems.
Ironically, I'm pretty sure I've seen that one in Fiore. I saw it in the literal translation PDF by the Knights of the Wild Rose. It is the 25th Longsword technique shown and has the caption: "I'll throw you to the ground this way: I did not miss putting my sword to your neck." p.47
Yes, INTENSE is the word wich best describes this prize, congratulations for the participants and for the winer. By the way, i'm a novice student of WMA longsword, I would be honored if you can explain what are the rules/terms of this prize and the "scoring" system. And, as someone pointed out, this matches are with steel or nylon wasters if my eye doesn't fool me, isn't it dangerous wearing only a t-shirt? Thank you for ypour replies!
NOT an official ARMA statement. No grappling, except what's in the video. All of body is valid target. Scoring was number of matches won/lost. Senior Free Scholars used steel blunts, all else used nylon wasters and padded swords. Safety = good weapon control. Hits hurt and bruise but there were no injuries. Although a paradox, safety is supported by the lack of padding, no need to hit really hard. All weapons passed safety inspection.
Thanks for the comments. Matches are "first blood"? I mean the first hit wins? how do you deal with double hits if there's any?
As I said, i'm a novice, but when when we free-sparr we try to be as much covered as possible. Small dents in the edge could cause cuts on skin and heavy blows can break or fissure bones. It's strange for me to see ppl only on tees.
Other comment about the fights: can't barely see no tip-play/thrusts, which is the most important of the three wounders.
The first hit that would debilitate or kill, yes. A double hit is a loss for both parties (like real life, lol).
Good control is the key to safety, not a lot of protective equipment. That is how training was done historically.
Good observation about the thrusting. I believe that in this particular instance thrusts were a more limited that usual because there were so many people there who Aaron had never trained with and control is even more crucial in thrusting in order to prevent injury.
Wearing a bunch of armour affect technique much more than using good control. ARMA has an extremely good safety record, probably the best of any large scale WMA organization, because its focus on skill and control
They didn't have protective equipment? Full harness is protective equipment. I think it may have been more of a mentality of "If I'm going to train unarmored fencing, then I won't be armored."
No, I know who Mr. Clements is. I ment the one fighting on the right hand side at 0:37 with the silver mask. He seems to be getting alot of hits. Aaron perhaps?
Yes, that is Aaron. Aaron was playing his prize for the rank of Senior Free Scholar. Aaron did indeed get lots of hits that day, winning well over 70 percent of his matches.
I don't know if I look forward to or dread the day I must play my prize. At the moment however I'm a long way away from that day. I am the only ARMA member in my area so it's hard to find good sparring partners and I can rarely afford to travel to ARMA events. But what can one do except to continue to train. :-/
It is silly for you to suggest that the ARMA members that took part in this prize play were irresponsible. Your comment marks you as someone without any real knowledge of martial arts. As you can clearly see in the video we all wore protective equipment. There has never been a serious injury in any ARAM prize play. To date, ARMA has an extremely good safety record.
Heridos ninguno. Lo cierto es que todos gozamos la oportunidad de intercambiar golpes con plena intencion, fuerza y control.
Esto es bastante mas que simplemente tratar de golpearse con un palo. Hubiese asumido que esto es algo que sabrias. Evidentemente concocimeinto real es escaso.
Nuestros ancestros practicaron durante siglos de esta forma.
Las escuelas de esgrima eran llamadas "jardines de rosas".Hematomas y otros eran acostumbrados y esperados.Los accidentes serios eran bien infrecuentes.
I fought in this prize playing. It was very intense. I've been doing martial arts since 1964 and these were a tough series of matches. Aaron fought 90 in an hour's time and won all but 17.
Anyone know where I can get lessons like this in South Africa?
EntusedDragon 3 months ago
@EntusedDragon
The only group I know of in South Africa is MACS (Medieval Armed Combat Society of South Africa) in Johannesburg and in Pretoria. I think there are some people in Cape Town too but all I can find about them are a mail adress.
gurkfisk89 2 weeks ago
I've got a question: I hope anybody could give me some advice. I just started to do practise historical european material arts. Atm I go to a trainingsession once a week (about 2 h) and I also practice at home. In my opinion I have to become much stronger :/ Anybody an idea how to reach that aim? The technique itself's not the problem but oh well - *sigh*
animewerewolf 1 year ago
gurkfisk89 1 year ago
@gurkfisk89 Wow! Thanks a lot! The videos are really good/helpful. Gonna keep an eye on that channel :)
animewerewolf 1 year ago
@animewerewolf Get some free weights and learn how to use them, or head to a gym and use theirs. Go for endurance (25 reps of whatever weight you can manage, keep increasing weight each time) rather than power. Alternatively just do some body weight exercises (pushups, leg raises, lunges etc) and your normal sparring every week and you'll get there eventually. We all start somewhere :)
Makrond 8 months ago
@Makrond Thank you very much for your advices. I've done all those things for "a while" now :,D started training just some weeks after I posted that and my strenght has already increased. Though I think I don't manage 25 reps. Usually I do 15, but I might try it that way =D
animewerewolf 8 months ago
@animewerewolf 15 is certainly a good number as well, especially if you're comfortable with it. Good to hear you're enjoying HEMA and improving yourself. :D
Makrond 8 months ago
@Makrond I am -... so much! Thanks =)
animewerewolf 8 months ago
@animewerewolf Train but focus of plyometrics to build explosive strength and agility training.. Run of the mill weight lifting may (but not necessarily) bulk you up too much and affect directional agility. Dont skimp on cardio either: greater cardio endurance allows you to keep a lower resting heart rate that means you can keep focused and concentrate without being affected by fatigue. Interdisperce sprinting in your running too:you need to learn to move off the mark quickly sometimes.
muresug 8 months ago
@animewerewolf watch?v=lrNHI_gyJ4g
This is from a member of a prominent Swedish HEMA group.
halfassedfart 6 months ago
I want to find this near me sooooooooo bad
ewbecht 1 year ago
What style are they fighting? All I'm seeing is empty displacements... :-(
drfang68 1 year ago
I'm awaiting ARMA membership, so I'm going to say this before representing the organization might prevent me from doing so.
EVERY east vs west argument I've seen on youtube consists of an eastern practitioner defending his pride, vs a HEMA practitioner defending the right of his art to exist.
I'm sick to death of convos about "my" martial heritage. An exclusive endeavor, being peppered with the pride wounded bickering of non-practitioners.
In short... If mine art offends thee, pass on by.
iwhisperwolf 2 years ago 17
ARMA are very aggressive when it comes to criticisng and dismissing EMA and JSA. This is why they attract comments.
OmteZero 1 year ago
I asked to join arma on their site months ago. I hope to hear from them someday..... maybe this year.
scottleander 2 years ago
This is pretty old footage, and I'm guessing current ARMA has probably changed. What is wierd about the WSA guys though is how their so keen on steel and nylon swords for free sparring yet dont care to protect their throat or lower torso properly, like in Kendo. The result is very little thrusting and few strikes to the belly. The lack of thrusts is really interesting, considering the status of the 2 hander longersword in WSA. Thrusting is pretty much what the longsword is optimised for.
OmteZero 2 years ago
Longsword is not just a thrusting weapon. granted the straight blade does mechanically thrust extremely well. but the longsword as a whole does everything very well and the entire sword is a weapon from the blades edges and point to its guard and pommel, all have many uses and ways to use them. Much of the time it depends on the swordsman. Some of us prefer an even cut and trust style some tend to go with cutting and slicing with an occasional thrust thrown in.
draigchief 2 years ago
As for protection, the ARMA guys are superb in their control during contact sparring many of them have done enough of it that they can sense when to slow down a blow enough before it does much if any real damage.
draigchief 2 years ago
My point is WSA sparring would involve more attempts to thrust to the neck or chest and cut to the lower torso if better body protection were worn.
OmteZero 2 years ago
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draigchief 2 years ago
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draigchief 2 years ago
Again it just depends on the swordsman, Ive studied the western longsword now for about a decade and I prefer quick cuts and slices and none of my students wear any real toso protection, but they do wear fencing masks that protect the neck as well. Straight blades also dont really leave room for cuts accross a torso like in kendo. Longsword is alot of tight cross cutting and vertical cuts and slices aimed largely at arms head/neck and legs. when trained properly you do learn to slow down thusts
draigchief 2 years ago
Sure, a longsword can cut but every cutting test I've seen show that a curved blade outdoes a straight bladed sword by a substantial margin.
OmteZero 2 years ago
We do plenty of thrusting. I guarantee you. Kendo doesn't even have targeting below the waste, or allow you to close and grapple.
Zwerchhau 2 years ago
Judo/Aikido can be integrated into Kendo easily. Kendo aims to perfect the unarmored swordfight from the point where swords are drawn to the point where they bind. The only techniques studied at the bind are withdrawing strikes. HEMA students critque Kendo as being too limited in scope, but equally, by trying to master a multitude of diciplines and techniques at once, one can say HEMA WSA is too unfocused. Hema students risk being jacks of all trades and masters of none.
OmteZero 2 years ago
"the only techniques studied at the bind are withdrawing strikes" wow, no binden or winden? (sorry, I don't know what it is called in Japanese) You guys are missing the heart of swordsmanship.
Zwerchhau 2 years ago
There is plenty to study and gain competence in before you get to techniques beyond the bind. Footwork, good form, angles of attack, precision, reading your opponent, reading for openings, stamina, developing speed etc. It is amazing how HEMA students already consider themselves adept at fighting from the onset of a fight with all the guards used. After only 10 years of studying the opening stage of a fight you guys are rushing straight into winden and ringen before mastering the basics.
OmteZero 2 years ago
A wholistic approach to combat training is just as effective as one that requires a variety of disciplines with narrow focii.
Escrima, like Hema, uses a wholistic approach, and novices are trained in single-blade, double blade, dagger and unarmed techniques right from the start. Are Escrima students also jacks of all trades and masters of none? Because I've watched Escrima practitioners do better than hold their own against Kendo practitioners. And that was when I was in Kendo myself.
Llyranon 1 year ago
You mean holistic? Good points though. Given that a 2 hander sword outranges the short sticks typically used in Escrima I'd expect a skilled kendoka to do well against them. Most 'kendoka vs escrima' matches I've seen do not include the thrust because of safety issues. This means the escrimador seems to do better than would be the case if thrusting was included.
OmteZero 1 year ago
@OmteZero I find this funny when these arts were developed for/by people who would have had to learn many arts at once in a limited amount of time. Warriors have always trained in as many arts as they could, would you insult a SF soldier because in addition to learning long range marksmanship, ha also trains with pistol, sub machine-guns, carbines, missile launchers, etc.. while learning tactics for urban, jungle, and dessert combat/survival?
Altonahk 1 year ago 2
@Altonahk well said and true
christopheclugston 1 year ago
I see a lot of lurching, hunching, forward leaning, which not only makes you unstable, is bad for your joints, but also presents your face as a big ass target.
Doesn't HEMA stress heavily on proper body mechanics and structure?
VorpalDrake 2 years ago
Fool guard is pictured like that, with leaning forward, since it's purpose is to invite a strike in the head and quickly retaliate with low strikes. Lurching is more like a personal style of Aaron, I noticed that as well... I've also seen many kendokas to "shake" their point, I think it's done to confuse your opponent. You can't see the blade fully when your opponent is in fool guard, so if you notice a motion with peripheral vision you can think that he's attacking while he's just deceiving you
Ranziel1 2 years ago
@Ranziel1: Then if the opponent thrusts strongly, it becomes a matter of speed, in which case why bother training technique? I've seen some of the treatises, and it shows the Alber guard done with a shift of the weight (with hips and legs) to place the body in a deceptive face-leading position to fascilitate the feint you mentioned. But never have I heard of leaning forward from the waist/hips where the stance becomes unsound in terms of stability and leverage. Interesting.
VorpalDrake 2 years ago
@VorpalDrake It does, though that leaning is probably done with a purpose. I'd be pretty tempted to give the fellow a good poke in the mask with my sword, and that would be exactly what he wants.
halfassedfart 1 year ago
Very Sharp sword, cuts few layers of padding without any problem. Even when you hit with very light strike - look at my video answer.
At the other hand sword sharpened like ordinary axe, cannot cut through the padding.
janchodkiewicz 2 years ago
at 49, the guy sure looks tough, but the guy who gets thrown totally has his sword up against the other guy's belly for a good 2 or 3 seconds.
CrimsonEmpire 2 years ago
In such situation he would hardly be able to genereate enough pressure to actually cut him, beside that, getting proper edge alignment required for a cut would also be a big problem.
Konane12 2 years ago 3
Just touching someone with a sword won't injure, you need to strike or slice.
Ranziel1 2 years ago 6
Its not a lightsaber.
MattABryant 2 years ago 5
@CrimsonEmpire Remeber, sword edges are more chisel-like than knife-like. Merely pressing the edge of a sword against someones belly, even when it's only covered with a shirt, would probably cause, at most, a superficial wound. Aaron's takedown and subsequent pommel-bash would have definitively ended the fight.
invisinerd 2 years ago
right but what if he'd drawn the blade while applying pressure? I mean, the sword would be sharp as hell right?
CrimsonEmpire 2 years ago
@CrimsonEmpire Against bare flesh? Maybe. Through even light padding? Unlikely. The edge of a sword is meant to withstand some pretty mean abuse, and so it isn't really sharp like a knife or a razor. It needs to be able to cleave flesh when swung with force, so it has an edge to be sure but, generally (and by generally I mean for the types of swords represented in this video), they wouldn't be sharp enough to gut someone with just a quick swipe or draw.
invisinerd 2 years ago
@CrimsonEmpire It probably wouldn't be a pleasant experience to have a sword drug across you as the waster is drug across Aaron in this vid, but it probably wouldn't result in a debilitating or lethal wound, which is why the fight didn't stop there.
invisinerd 2 years ago
I agree with your point, but as an aside, chisels are normally kept much sharper than most knives. If they're not kept razor sharp they tear wood fibers rather than slicing them, so no cabinetmaker worth his salt lets his chisels grow dull.
Llyranon 1 year ago
why were some fights with steel blunts as opposed to wasters?
fenrirsget 2 years ago
Not everyone who was there had blunts, and not everyone there was experienced enough to fight with them.
Zwerchhau 2 years ago
so blunts are the standard, then? Seems like for contact bouts you'd want something a little less painful. But then again, there's something to be said for control and intent.
fenrirsget 2 years ago
Only the senior scholars and more experienced students freeplayed with steel blunts, pretty much everyone else used either wood or nylon wasters.
Zwerchhau 2 years ago
There really isn't anything wrong with arm protection...
Gilmaris 3 years ago
Hey that's Aaron Pynenberg, I just checked the ARMA website, it has more details about his fights..I served with him in Bosnia, he's a real __kicker! We trained all the time, I am sure he's holding back here. I am impressed with the skills presented here I need to check into this stuff!
JGRangerScout 3 years ago 4
you served with Aaron! That's awesome. Ask around on the forums if you're interested, I'm sure we can get you in contact with one of the study groups.
Or you could just ask Aaron. Good luck!
tiamat9989 3 years ago
No, "the guy who keeps owning everyone else" was playing his prize for longsword. Clements is standing in the corner, with the staff. The prize player, fought some 90 or so bouts in an hour continuously and I believe won all but 17 or 18 of them I don't remember the exact numbers.
Zwerchhau 3 years ago 2
90 bouts, 73 wins, 17 losses. He's a monster, and a frickin' machine. So sad he was born into this era of unappreciated sword-arts. I'm sure he could have made a name for himself in service of some kingdom ages ago.
Danpaco 3 years ago 4
Maybe... or maybe his first loss would've been fatal. Who knows?
Littlejon126 2 years ago
He's already served. Former army Ranger, IIRC.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
Who's the guy who keeps owning everyone else? Is that Clements?
fenrirsget 3 years ago
Man these guys are good
Philippians4x13 3 years ago 4
I was very recently educated about medieval and Renaissance martial arts. I was fairly ignorant about it I thought that they simply hacked and slashed until someone dropped. I suppose that I was way off when I learned about ARMA. I am now trying to get several study groups in Ky.
gigasbleach99 3 years ago 15
I think there is already a group in Ky. There are some very good ARMA groups out there, that's for sure.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago 2
But that aside, I really thank you for uploading this video, it really gave me a lot of insights to fighting with different weapon combos.
arcturian627 3 years ago
Omg, I wish I was living somewhere where I can join ARMA... See I'm doing an intensive research for a comic I'm working on, which I want to be based on REAL Medieval fighting, not unrealistic, modern crap. Problem is, I can't truly do so by just reading, I need to do it for myself! This is so frustrating!
arcturian627 3 years ago
I just got in ARMA, I start later this week!!!
255Knights 3 years ago
Sweet! Which chapter?
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
Oh realy... I shit my pants ... That was fight? God...
zwierzus 3 years ago
Internet Tough Guy spotted.
Go back to Halo.
chibraxial 3 years ago 4
free fights are very exiting..I love it...nice nice video, like a turnament..
GarethofOrkney 3 years ago
senior prize-playing...
fighting nonstop for over an hour, over 70 bouts and dozens of different opponents, and still winning the vast majority of all the encounters.
That's incredibly impressive.
tiamat9989 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Why bother learning guards and footwork....just rum AMOK-ARMA.
ibmerkin 3 years ago
what are you talking about? I see a lot of guards and footwork in this video.
marozzo 3 years ago
rum? yeah that solves everything doesn't it? Seriously, put down the bottle. You're hurting yourself and your family.
JonnieZombie 3 years ago 3
btw may somebody tell me the difference between "iron gate" and "wild boar's tooth" guards?from fiore
argonald 3 years ago
awesome !!!
argonald 3 years ago
haha, is that Jake at the end against Aaron?
I see you two in just about every sparring video on the ARMA website, it's like a friendly rivalry or something. Freaking awesome.
tiamat9989 3 years ago
Wasup109, simple question, do you train in anything?
Zwerchhau 3 years ago
Come on. Why all the pausing.
Have a plan that dynamically changes with your opponents actions. Each millisecond counts. Know your response. He parries, you continue your attack, he parries again, disengage and hit him.
He takes a step, you recover that distance.
Ect.... which all happens in like 3-4 seconds.
wasup109 3 years ago
A fight is not a continual stream of hits and parries. There is feinting, measuring of distance, regaining balance, footwork. If a pause where one does any of the above seems odd to you stop getting your sword knowledge from star wars. I seriously did not understand the point of your commentary.
TruthWielder 3 years ago 5
This comment has received too many negative votes show
this is hilarious. no one attempts to dodge anything.
wasup109 3 years ago
Lol maybe you can clarify what you mead by dodge? because I see plenty of good defensive moves.
Konane12 3 years ago
Um....I count six....
2 at 00:13-00:14
1 at 00:18
1 at 00:26
1 at 00:31
and 1 at 00:45
If by dodge you mean void anyway.
SwordAndBuckler 3 years ago
sorry, just all the seemingly unnecessary movements.
anyone mind telling me the rules?
cause i find "defense" pointless, when the whole point is to touch the other guy.
wasup109 3 years ago
The whole point is not to "touch" the other guy.
The point is to hit the other guy, in such a way, that it would have fatally wounded or incapacitated the opponent, had the weapons been real, without having the same done to oneself.
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago 3
Well, blades are sharp. If you muscles are cut, how are you going to lift that sword? The sting is more than enough to cause you to flinch if not pause. Which then may be followed by repeated cuts. 2 cuts is all you need to destroy any use of your arm.
You don't need to kill the guy in one hit. A cut is more than enough to lead into death.
.
If you wish for this to be "realistic" instead of sport. Then why not grab the guy's hand?
wasup109 3 years ago
Exactly.
If you cut a guys arm, then yes, the muscles, and quite possibly the whole arm, will be cut (Two cuts, isn't necessarily needed. One'll probably do).
That would lead to him/her being, as I said, incapacitated, and therefore having lost that round/bout/whatever you wanna call it.
HEMA practitioners DO grab the opponents hand (amongst other wrestling stuff), actually, but only if we get close enough, as you would otherwise only leave your hand open, to be cut to pieces.
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago
I forgot to mention one more detail:
With padded swords and modified shinai (no comments on whether one or the other sucks, please), the hit has to have enough force, to actually have killed or incapacitated the opponent.
If it's only a little light touch, that wouldn't have made more then a little flesh wound, with a sharp, it doesn't count.
(with wood and steel, you tend to be more careful though, so I don't know if it work with that as well. I haven't sparred with those)
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago
I'm an Asian/Greco martial arts practitioner and I've been watching ARMA guys for some time. One of these days, I'll convert :D. One question I've been trying to figure out, what is the difference in philosophy between ARMA and HEMA?
Jahaison 2 years ago
Well, there is an error in your question I'm afraid.
ARMA and HEMA, are in two different categories. Indeed, I don't think you can say that HEMA has a philosophy.
HEMA is Historical European Martial Arts.
The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA) practices HEMA.
(They have many groups, all over the US)
ZarlanTheGreen 2 years ago 3
is this full contact sparring??
because they dont have safetys and it also sound like metal-weapons.
linglingx911 2 years ago
As I see you are from the US, I'd recommend joining ARMA.
Some within ARMA, certainly most of the top people, do tend to be too sure of themselves, and tend to overestimate experience, as a indicator of whether or not they are correct. (which, along with unfair generalizations about the rest of the HEMA community, has creates friction with the rest of the community at times)
They're still quite good though.
The other groups in the US, are a bit hit and miss.
ZarlanTheGreen 2 years ago
Great to see people who really go at it with real weapons. There's similar Tournament using full weight wood weapons for Chinese Swordsman this May 10, see-
swordleague dot com for the rules.
wuming108 4 years ago
arma came to my school and trained out drama department in sword fighting every year
JustWatchinVideosAnd 4 years ago
Aaron FTW, Hail from ARMA Mexico!
magnusolimpus 4 years ago
That was the coolest thing ever!
uufi53 4 years ago 4
Love it!!!
Unlike kendo, THIS is sparring!!
Smurf209 4 years ago 6
Does the safety thinking affect technic or why is it I don't any (connecting) thrusts?
losNinja 4 years ago
There were a number of thrusts in the prize play. Please remember that the video is only showing highlights, the prize play was over an hour long.
ranpleasant 4 years ago
Ah, ok I see now. Thanks for responding :)
Sadly ARMA South Florida doesn't seem to be responding back to me...
GecSword 4 years ago
Aaron is the individual featured in the video playing his prize.
Zwerchhau 4 years ago
Aaron Pyenberg? That's my Arma teacher! he's scary when he has a sword in his hand.
llamanator3000 4 years ago
WHo is Aaraon? I'm familiar with some of the names in Arma, but not this one? Anyways a question: I'm 17, and keen on learning german longsword. I've got an arma group about 1 hour near me. Would I be able to join due to my age?
GecSword 4 years ago
really not bad
ROBERTO
ITALY
A1536M 4 years ago
I have to say Western sword arts are far more developed then what most people think!
Roman55Legions 4 years ago
Awesome! Thanks for posting this. I can see a few meisterhauen, some versetzen, a kron, and a whole crapload of hengen, lol. Good show
latestart 4 years ago
Video très sympa, le jeu est efficace! Sauf une petite fois où le combat épée longue /épée-rondache termine en ferraillage.
Je suis surpris par la facilité du maniement de la Meyer...je pense que je vais me laisser tenter.
captainraf 4 years ago
Wow. That was...interesting. What flavor of longsword/wrestling was that intended to be? I'll assume German, since I'm reasonably familiar with Fiore and that wasn't it.
FlashBazbeau 4 years ago
The effective kind!!! LOL!
Powerkicker 4 years ago
Most ARMA members focus on German longsword. However, ARMA members do study both German and Italian longsword and for the most part do not see them as two different systems.
rpleasant57 4 years ago
Ironically, I'm pretty sure I've seen that one in Fiore. I saw it in the literal translation PDF by the Knights of the Wild Rose. It is the 25th Longsword technique shown and has the caption: "I'll throw you to the ground this way: I did not miss putting my sword to your neck." p.47
MattABryant 4 years ago 2
Yes, INTENSE is the word wich best describes this prize, congratulations for the participants and for the winer. By the way, i'm a novice student of WMA longsword, I would be honored if you can explain what are the rules/terms of this prize and the "scoring" system. And, as someone pointed out, this matches are with steel or nylon wasters if my eye doesn't fool me, isn't it dangerous wearing only a t-shirt? Thank you for ypour replies!
OriolPanzer 4 years ago
NOT an official ARMA statement. No grappling, except what's in the video. All of body is valid target. Scoring was number of matches won/lost. Senior Free Scholars used steel blunts, all else used nylon wasters and padded swords. Safety = good weapon control. Hits hurt and bruise but there were no injuries. Although a paradox, safety is supported by the lack of padding, no need to hit really hard. All weapons passed safety inspection.
rpleasant57 4 years ago
Thanks for the comments. Matches are "first blood"? I mean the first hit wins? how do you deal with double hits if there's any?
As I said, i'm a novice, but when when we free-sparr we try to be as much covered as possible. Small dents in the edge could cause cuts on skin and heavy blows can break or fissure bones. It's strange for me to see ppl only on tees.
Other comment about the fights: can't barely see no tip-play/thrusts, which is the most important of the three wounders.
OriolPanzer 4 years ago
The first hit that would debilitate or kill, yes. A double hit is a loss for both parties (like real life, lol).
Good control is the key to safety, not a lot of protective equipment. That is how training was done historically.
Good observation about the thrusting. I believe that in this particular instance thrusts were a more limited that usual because there were so many people there who Aaron had never trained with and control is even more crucial in thrusting in order to prevent injury.
MattABryant 4 years ago
There is no way to avoid injury, through control alone, and to try to do so, will affect accuracy of technique.
Proper safety equipment is important.
They didn't use it historically, because they didn't have it.
ZarlanTheGreen 4 years ago
Wearing a bunch of armour affect technique much more than using good control. ARMA has an extremely good safety record, probably the best of any large scale WMA organization, because its focus on skill and control
ranpleasant 4 years ago
Wearing a mask, gorget and proper gloves (and maybe some simple knee and elbow protection), hardly affects technique too much, does it?
ZarlanTheGreen 4 years ago
No I wouldn't say that is too much. I generally go with only a fencing mask. Sometimes with leather gloves and sometimes with not equipment at all.
MattABryant 4 years ago
They didn't have protective equipment? Full harness is protective equipment. I think it may have been more of a mentality of "If I'm going to train unarmored fencing, then I won't be armored."
MattABryant 4 years ago
Awesome. Who's the one in the dark red?
SwordAndBuckler 4 years ago
The man in dark red with the staff overseeing the prize play is John Clements, the director of ARMA.
rpleasant57 4 years ago
No, I know who Mr. Clements is. I ment the one fighting on the right hand side at 0:37 with the silver mask. He seems to be getting alot of hits. Aaron perhaps?
SwordAndBuckler 4 years ago
Yes, that is Aaron. Aaron was playing his prize for the rank of Senior Free Scholar. Aaron did indeed get lots of hits that day, winning well over 70 percent of his matches.
ranpleasant 4 years ago
I don't know if I look forward to or dread the day I must play my prize. At the moment however I'm a long way away from that day. I am the only ARMA member in my area so it's hard to find good sparring partners and I can rarely afford to travel to ARMA events. But what can one do except to continue to train. :-/
SwordAndBuckler 4 years ago
I love that takedown!
marozzo 4 years ago
This is real western martial arts!
Meshelsidek 4 years ago 2
Nice to see more ARMA stuff online
BigDummy23 4 years ago 2
Irresponsable, es una estupidez de marca mayor tirar con esa dureza sin protegerse.Me gustaria saber cuantos heridos hubo....
sajarano 4 years ago
Irresponsible? Practicing martial arts with less intent than that is somehow responsible, then?
neb110 4 years ago
It is silly for you to suggest that the ARMA members that took part in this prize play were irresponsible. Your comment marks you as someone without any real knowledge of martial arts. As you can clearly see in the video we all wore protective equipment. There has never been a serious injury in any ARAM prize play. To date, ARMA has an extremely good safety record.
ranpleasant 4 years ago 2
Heridos ninguno. Lo cierto es que todos gozamos la oportunidad de intercambiar golpes con plena intencion, fuerza y control.
Esto es bastante mas que simplemente tratar de golpearse con un palo. Hubiese asumido que esto es algo que sabrias. Evidentemente concocimeinto real es escaso.
Nuestros ancestros practicaron durante siglos de esta forma.
Las escuelas de esgrima eran llamadas "jardines de rosas".Hematomas y otros eran acostumbrados y esperados.Los accidentes serios eran bien infrecuentes.
furiber4 4 years ago
I was there it was awesome, Aaron beat me in like 1.5 seconds.
Zwerchhau 4 years ago
Fantastic video. We need more like these available to show junior members what a more experienced fighter looks like in action. Congrats Aaron!
blambell 4 years ago
I fought in this prize playing. It was very intense. I've been doing martial arts since 1964 and these were a tough series of matches. Aaron fought 90 in an hour's time and won all but 17.
haffoc 4 years ago
Very well done. More like this, please. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 4 years ago 2
Great intensity!
darkcelt13 4 years ago 2
Now that be some fightin'!!
diaperlord 4 years ago 2