We did not betray Poland! We went to war when Poland was attacked even though there was little we could do for her and hard to know how we could win. When Stalin joined the war, we demanded that he respect Poland's independence as he liberated it from the Nazis. He solumnly promised to do so. When he betrayed that promise we carried out a cold war against him until the system he stood for and the nation he led collapsed. We stood by Poland but it took longer than could have been foreseen!
Britain signed a treaty with Poland that committed Britain to the military defence of the Polish border against ALL aggressors. How was this treaty honoured when the USSR invaded Poland in 1939?
DairiadaDreaming -- Britain's guarantees to Poland were given to PREVENT Germany using force to change Poland's borders. But when Germany attacked anyway, a war--history's most immediately decisive event--was in the offing. Faced with this reality, Stalin also had to calculate. You know that his August 21 treaty with Hitler was redrawn and signed on Sept. 25. The Red Army went up to the Curzon Line (see wiki), the point at which Pilsudski began his war of conquest in 1920.
@DalriadaDreaming You must remember that by the time Stalin entered Poland, Warsaw had fallen to the Germans and the Polish chief of state and government had fled from the country. In other words, Stalin's violation of Polish sovereignty did not take place until Hitler had defeated it. NOT EVEN THE POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE DECLARED WAR ON THE USSR! Remember that!
I wouldn`t describe the Soviet conquest of Poland as liberation but rather the exchange of one dictatorship for another. A sobering thought is the BBC series Auschwitz where we learn that the advancing Soviets raped some of the female inmates of that camp!
(1) You underestimate how many Polish communists there were in 1945! (2) And remember, Poland gained all the territory it claimed from Germany in 1945. 12 million Germans were expelled by Poles from the provinces it annexed. That gives all Poles good reason to stay friends with the USSR. That's something to remember too!
An offensive into Germany itself September 1939 would have met no resistance with the German army/airforce tied up in Poland. Germany had nothing to defend its own Western frontier as proved by the success of the limited French offensive.
@DalriadaDreaming Many historians have erred by just counting men and tanks. France had more. But it was the quality of the machines and above all quality of the generals. Gamelin was no Guderian. Moreover, France was riddled with defeatism. (Read: "France Against Herself") The allies had already given Germany Austria without a peep and the Sudetenland with barely a peep. The time to have acted with certain ease was 1936 when Hitler remilitarized the Rhineland.
Britain possessed an enormous world empire. How is it that British bombers dropped peace leaflets on Germany instead of bombs? Where do you get the idea that Poland could not have been helped?
Chamberlian did not believe in the war. Britain was bankrupt! It's Indian Empire was on its last legs. If it hadn't been for Gahdhi's peace-obsession and the Indian people's quasi-romantic attachment to the Empire, the British would have been forced out after WWI.
The French Army had virtually folded in 1916--no confidence there. American was NOT "on board". Russia was allied with Hitler. WHAT COULD BRITAIN DO FOR POLAND? It took a nut like Churchill to say in the face of all this, WE CAN WIN!
@mc0558 If Churchill had been in power, Germany would have been carpet-bombed at the start of the war, not at the finish. I am proud of Britain during WW2 - except that we let Poland down, from start to finish. And in return, they were the highest scoring pilots during the Battle of Britain; we couldn't have managed without them. They deserved better from us, and from the Americans at the end of the war, than to be quietly handed over to the Russians. Quite simply, it is shameful.
George Orwell described the UK as "Britain with its democratic phrases and coolie empire." The British Empire had been milked for everything it had prior to WWI. In the last 30's Britain was looking at the imminent loss of India and Ireland, increasingly independent dominions, financial bankruptcy, the threat of communism and an increasingly aggressive Nazi Germany with Italy, its ally, a threat in the Mediterranean (its link to the Suez Canal). Britain was in no position to help anyone!
An offensive into Western Germany Sept 1939 would have drained German forces away from Poland easing pressure thereby helping them. British and French bombers could have bombed Germany from bases in France to help Poland.
@DalriadaDreaming Britain began the war with the determination not to make large scale troop commitments to the defence of France as it had in 1916. The French Army had to do it alone, and General Gamelin was afraid. Many hoped tHitler would take Danzing (League territory, not Polish) and the Corridor, then withdraw and stop the war. Poland would just be told to face facts. But for Hitler military success whetted his appetite for more.
Yes! The French Army should have invaded Germany immediately, while the Poles were still frighting in the East. It is very likely that Germany COULD HAVE been defeated then. But the Brits and French just sat on their arses and did nothing. Have you read May's book, "The Strange Victory". The French Army had everything going for it except generalship. As one of Gamlin's generals described him as a coward.
Poland betrayed herself in 1938 when, not only did she refuse to join the USSR and Czechoslovakia to prevent Hitler from taking the Sudetenland, but she actually join with Hitler to violate Czechoslovakia's territorial integrity. Poland whose own national interest was invested in international law and the sanctity of national boundaries actually violated that very principle. Poland maneuvred herself into the mess she found herself for the next 60 years. No one did it to her!
Remember Poland. Betrayed.
DalriadaDreaming 2 years ago
We did not betray Poland! We went to war when Poland was attacked even though there was little we could do for her and hard to know how we could win. When Stalin joined the war, we demanded that he respect Poland's independence as he liberated it from the Nazis. He solumnly promised to do so. When he betrayed that promise we carried out a cold war against him until the system he stood for and the nation he led collapsed. We stood by Poland but it took longer than could have been foreseen!
mc0558 2 years ago
Britain signed a treaty with Poland that committed Britain to the military defence of the Polish border against ALL aggressors. How was this treaty honoured when the USSR invaded Poland in 1939?
DalriadaDreaming 2 years ago
DairiadaDreaming -- Britain's guarantees to Poland were given to PREVENT Germany using force to change Poland's borders. But when Germany attacked anyway, a war--history's most immediately decisive event--was in the offing. Faced with this reality, Stalin also had to calculate. You know that his August 21 treaty with Hitler was redrawn and signed on Sept. 25. The Red Army went up to the Curzon Line (see wiki), the point at which Pilsudski began his war of conquest in 1920.
mc0558 2 years ago
@DalriadaDreaming You must remember that by the time Stalin entered Poland, Warsaw had fallen to the Germans and the Polish chief of state and government had fled from the country. In other words, Stalin's violation of Polish sovereignty did not take place until Hitler had defeated it. NOT EVEN THE POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE DECLARED WAR ON THE USSR! Remember that!
mc0558 1 year ago
I wouldn`t describe the Soviet conquest of Poland as liberation but rather the exchange of one dictatorship for another. A sobering thought is the BBC series Auschwitz where we learn that the advancing Soviets raped some of the female inmates of that camp!
DalriadaDreaming 2 years ago
@DalriadaDreaming @DalriadaDreaming I do not believe that Soviet troop did anything of the sort! This is just a vicious slander!
(1) You underestimate how many Polish communists there were in 1945! (2) And remember, Poland gained all the territory it claimed from Germany in 1945. 12 million Germans were expelled by Poles from the provinces it annexed. That gives all Poles good reason to stay friends with the USSR. That's something to remember too!
mc0558 1 year ago
An offensive into Germany itself September 1939 would have met no resistance with the German army/airforce tied up in Poland. Germany had nothing to defend its own Western frontier as proved by the success of the limited French offensive.
DalriadaDreaming 2 years ago
@DalriadaDreaming Many historians have erred by just counting men and tanks. France had more. But it was the quality of the machines and above all quality of the generals. Gamelin was no Guderian. Moreover, France was riddled with defeatism. (Read: "France Against Herself") The allies had already given Germany Austria without a peep and the Sudetenland with barely a peep. The time to have acted with certain ease was 1936 when Hitler remilitarized the Rhineland.
mc0558 1 year ago
Britain possessed an enormous world empire. How is it that British bombers dropped peace leaflets on Germany instead of bombs? Where do you get the idea that Poland could not have been helped?
DalriadaDreaming 2 years ago
Chamberlian did not believe in the war. Britain was bankrupt! It's Indian Empire was on its last legs. If it hadn't been for Gahdhi's peace-obsession and the Indian people's quasi-romantic attachment to the Empire, the British would have been forced out after WWI.
The French Army had virtually folded in 1916--no confidence there. American was NOT "on board". Russia was allied with Hitler. WHAT COULD BRITAIN DO FOR POLAND? It took a nut like Churchill to say in the face of all this, WE CAN WIN!
mc0558 2 years ago
@mc0558 If Churchill had been in power, Germany would have been carpet-bombed at the start of the war, not at the finish. I am proud of Britain during WW2 - except that we let Poland down, from start to finish. And in return, they were the highest scoring pilots during the Battle of Britain; we couldn't have managed without them. They deserved better from us, and from the Americans at the end of the war, than to be quietly handed over to the Russians. Quite simply, it is shameful.
TheBelovedButterfly 1 year ago
George Orwell described the UK as "Britain with its democratic phrases and coolie empire." The British Empire had been milked for everything it had prior to WWI. In the last 30's Britain was looking at the imminent loss of India and Ireland, increasingly independent dominions, financial bankruptcy, the threat of communism and an increasingly aggressive Nazi Germany with Italy, its ally, a threat in the Mediterranean (its link to the Suez Canal). Britain was in no position to help anyone!
mc0558 1 year ago
An offensive into Western Germany Sept 1939 would have drained German forces away from Poland easing pressure thereby helping them. British and French bombers could have bombed Germany from bases in France to help Poland.
DalriadaDreaming 2 years ago
@DalriadaDreaming Britain began the war with the determination not to make large scale troop commitments to the defence of France as it had in 1916. The French Army had to do it alone, and General Gamelin was afraid. Many hoped tHitler would take Danzing (League territory, not Polish) and the Corridor, then withdraw and stop the war. Poland would just be told to face facts. But for Hitler military success whetted his appetite for more.
mc0558 1 year ago
Both Britain and France jointly declared war upon Germany 3rd Sept which gave them massive numerical advantage on Germanys Western border.
DalriadaDreaming 2 years ago
Yes! The French Army should have invaded Germany immediately, while the Poles were still frighting in the East. It is very likely that Germany COULD HAVE been defeated then. But the Brits and French just sat on their arses and did nothing. Have you read May's book, "The Strange Victory". The French Army had everything going for it except generalship. As one of Gamlin's generals described him as a coward.
mc0558 2 years ago
Poland betrayed herself in 1938 when, not only did she refuse to join the USSR and Czechoslovakia to prevent Hitler from taking the Sudetenland, but she actually join with Hitler to violate Czechoslovakia's territorial integrity. Poland whose own national interest was invested in international law and the sanctity of national boundaries actually violated that very principle. Poland maneuvred herself into the mess she found herself for the next 60 years. No one did it to her!
mc0558 1 year ago
God bless the British people! They are gutsy and anybody who picks a fight with them will find that they have a tiger by the tail.
mc0558 2 years ago
haha, we aren't that great, about 90% of us are horrible racist bastards :L
drdude12472 2 years ago
Speak for yourself. There are idiots and extremists everywhere, but, especially in the UK, they are a small minority. No one I know is a racist.
mc0558 2 years ago
I guess i'm just in the wrong place then, rural middle england isnt the most accepting place. sorry if I ofended anyone.
drdude12472 2 years ago
I love rural England. A lot of people like to sound tough. They say dreadful things but when faced with real situations they do the right thing.
mc0558 2 years ago
i hope so!
drdude12472 2 years ago