ashame they didnt attack capitalism together!germany and russia against the tru beast!hitler is childsplay compared to rothchild,rockefeller,morgan,bush,and the other demons that run the capitalist monster!even other planets are afraid of us because of our selfish and cowardly nature!
@mnplastic1 at your expense.Then the Lithuanians finally understood that we weren't going to put up with their cheatings anymore.We had been paying huge sums of money only to let Lithuania stay alive facing Russia so we demanded Lithuania to join Poland.We were the ones that Lithuania owes its existence and freedoms for so many centuries so why should they make wxcuses and live on Polish expense?The European Union is,as I've written before already,a union of independent countries
Lets guess how many years Russians would have needed to annex Poland after the annexation of Lithuania? Poles understood it very well and this is why they provided support. The problem for the Lithuanian Polish union was that Poles also wanted to annex Lithuania, so instead of having two strong allies we had squabbling frenemies.
"I just wanted every one to know that it belonged to Poland..." You mean was occupied by polish before russians, and now finally belongs to people who established - lithuanians?
I just wanted every one to know that it belonged to Poland.It was occupied by Russia (1939-1941),then Germany (1941-1944) and after 1944 again by Russia by legally it was still Poland's city.We will never forget about that Polish city and regain it by any means necessary because we were innocent and other thuggish countries just took it from us and the Potsdam Conference legalised Russia's criminal occupation.
Indirectly since 1386 to 1569 (personal union with Poland) and directly since 1569 to 1795 (Lithuania joined Poland directly in the Lublin Union) and since 1918 to 1945.
Indirectly Krakow and all Poland belong to Lithuania, because of the same Union since 1386 to 1569 and directly from 1569.
You should find out how the Comonwealth was called. The Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It is like saying Paris belongs to Germany because France and Germany belong to EU or NATO. EU also has 1 president.
This Polish humor sence :) Now go and read where the border of Poland was until 1919.
instead of a real union,one country.That's a huge difference friend.Besides,Lithuanian nobility wanted very much to live in Poland with the Polish nobility's immense freedoms,unheard of anywhere in the world at that time.Since 1505,10% of Poles already had voting rights.England,which is so often mentioned s a forefront of freedoms in Europe,achieved and surpassed that result only in mid XIXth century!Not to mention other European countries...
@PolskiNarodowiecND Give this European Union 200-300 years and then we will see about huge difference. There are many things including, borders, taxes etc. which are even now more unifying in EU then in the Commonwealth.
The last sentence of the Krewo agreement stated that prince Jagiełło of Lithuania who was to marry the Polish king Jadwiga (king not queen though a woman!) that he 'promises to let his Lithuanian and Ruthenian lands join the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland'.
Poles had had enough of Lithuanian dodging of the Krewo agreements so my ancestors decided to let Ivan the Terrible and his Russia have fun
@PolskiNarodowiecND Do you mean Krevos intentions protocol after which followed one "agreement" after another but not even once Lithuania became part of Polish Crown?
Yes, Lithuania lost some wars against Muscovite but due to Polish stupidity and annoying Polonization both countries disappeared from the map.
It is obvious you have not learned from the mistakes by attacking and alienating all your neighbors and even allies before the WWII which again ended in deletion from the maps.
@PolskiNarodowiecND you simplified this too much. why would today's poland want vilnius (wilno, vilnius) back? it was much more complicated in 1919 than it is today. in 1919 you might have said that historically vilnius is lithuanian but demographically it's polish. can you make similar claim today? how would poland benefit from regaining vilnius? how does polish nation benefit from you saying those things?
@bacilijus don't get too excited, it's not healthy for ya. it seems to me, you don't really speak english but if you do, please be kind enough and tell me which point that i was trying to raise don't you agree with the most.
Well,after 70 years of installing lithuanianism into Polish Wilno,it's pretty irritating for me to hear those kinds of questions.Of course it should return to Poland as it was illegally grabbed by the USSR's Lithuanian Republic.How would Poland benefit from having Vilnius?And how would ou benefit from having another beautifull room in your house?
@PolskiNarodowiecND ohhh ok then. so you think poland should grab a city where only 20% of the population speaks polish and make it polish again? and while doing that do we give szczecin and wroclaw back to the germans. in 1919 question of wilno was still open. today it isn't. you really think we need more national minorites in poland like we had before 1939? seriously how does it really benefit poland? are you a lithuanian provocateur trying to make us poles look silly?
'and while doing that do we give szczecin and wroclaw back to the germans'
The case with Poland isNOT THE SAME as the case with Germany.Poland was innocent whilst Germany was all guilty so no! - the Eastern Borderlands must return to Poland and the Germans may forget about their former territories.Unless they can undo the genoicide that they did on Poles and the destruction of Poland.
' ohhh ok then. so you think poland should grab a city where only 20% of the population speaks polish and make it polish again?'
Ohhh - and why not???The Lithuanians and Soviets DIDN'T CARE ONE BIT THAT ALMOST ALL VILNIANS WERE POLES IN 1939!After they occupied it,they started changing the national majority status of Poles in that Polish city.So I don't care that nowadays Poles are not in the majority BECAUSE THEY EXPELLED POLES!!!!!You didn't care so don't demand it from me.
@PolskiNarodowiecND ok, so you are a communist then. you think we should do what the bolsheviks did. if dmowski were alive today, he'd spit in your face.
@PolskiNarodowiecND where in poland are you from? my family's from vilna. they left in 1945. my grandmother's uncle was in AK and after AK liberated vilnius soviets put him on a siberia bound train. my great grandfather paid railroad workers and they smuggled him out dressed in railroad uniform. my family is from there and which village in south eastern poland do you come from? what is your connection to vilnius wiesniaku?
@PolskiNarodowiecND what are you trying to say you communist pig? that only idiots like you can be polish? that there are no free thinking polish people? i would like to hear you say " W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie" i bet you wouldn't be able to pronounce it you lithuanian provocateur. you're here to make polish people look like imbeciles. btw what do you think dmowski would say about this crap you're spewing here? he'd be on my side on this. i guarantee it.
@PolskiNarodowiecND i just want you to know how lucky you are. normally i don't bother talking to idiots this long but today i'm killing time. to illustrate how ill informed you are, let's look and the shit comming out of your keyboard. 1) samogotians (half a million of them) are an enthnic group not recognized by lithuanian government. why would a polish patriot like me be smogotian? you make no sense.
@PolskiNarodowiecND i knew you came from a little town for you don't sound like a person from a city. now... my family was brutalized. in 1945 they were put on a cattle train and sent to gdansk. there they were given houses from which german families were taken away in a box car. why would anybody be stupid enough to think that we should brutalize lithuanians now because "we could use a nice room in our pretty house"?
@PolskiNarodowiecND you're a pagan and for you this seems normal. i am a christian and to me no one has the right to kill and remove anyone from their rightfull land. you can sound stupid, you can make people think poles are arrogant and stupid but you won't change the fact that vilnius is lithuanian, no other country is contesting it and vilnius will forever be lithuanian.
@PolskiNarodowiecND now look who owned vilnius in the last 100yrs.: russian empire, germany during WW1, republic of lithuania, middle lithuania (litwa srodkowa), poland, soviet union, republic of lithuania, soviet union again, nazi germany, armia krajowa for a few hours, soviet union once more, soviet socialist republic of lithuania within soviet union and finally independant lithuania. why would vilnius be polish now?
@PolskiNarodowiecND you really need to tell me why in your opinion vilnius is polish. just lie down on a couch (like you do every thursday) and tell me how historic capital of lithuania is polish.
You won't understand because talking to a protestant is like talking to a tree - one may talk 10 hours and the tree will still be a tree.What was stolen must be returned.Poland had Wilno for 450 years plus 100 years under the partitions where it was one of our cultural centres.
@PolskiNarodowiecND my religion has nothing to do with it here. poland never had wilno for 450yrs. during partition wilno was part of the russian empire. vilnius belonged to poland only between 1922 and 1939. it has always been a part of grand duchy of lithuania. you need to educate yourself so you don't sound as stupid. and don't use my christian faith as an excuse not to answer my questions. you have no basis for wanting vilnius.
Respect to you, brother pole, for your honesty. That Wilno (Vilnius) is Lithuania. I'm lithuanian. I read your conversation with PolskiNarodowiec. He should look at a mirror and then see a picture of reasons why many lithuanians don't like poles.
@renygma actually my views are more complicated than that. poles and lithuanians bend history their way but forget the truth that after 1918 lithuanian nation was split in half between those who wanted be a part of rzeczpospolita again and those who wanted independent lithuania. polish speaking lithuanian pilsudski took vilnius because lithuanians living there were polish speakers and wanted to be part of rzeczpospolita.
For me the main aspect is polish speaking lithuanians preferred Poland than Lithuania. They wanted to be part of Poland not rzeczpospolita. Pilsudski could create "Lithuania" consisting from Wilno, Grodno, Lida (for example as an autonomous part of Poland state). To show what he wants and he respect grand duchy. But he created Województwo wileńskie.
@renygma it's a bit more complicated than that. there was not such thing as poland nor as rzeczpospolita for 123 years. and all that time FREEDOM had different meaning to lithuanians. it meant being free of russian occupation but some wanted independent lithuania, some wanted reactivation of rzeczpospolita. it was the members of taryba who in 1918 told citizens of vilnius that they were not lithuanian because they didn't speak lithuanian.
@renygma nobody asked lithuanians which option they'd prefer. taryba didn't have the mandate to represent all lithuanians when they decided on independent lithuania, pilsudski didn't have the mandate to send zeligowski to vilnius. historians and politicians in poland and lithuania used this conflict for decades to justify their stupidity.
@renygma i said it many times. instead of wojewodztwo wilenskie, they should have created wojewodztwo litewskie with polish, lithuanian and belorussian as the official languages of the wojewodztwo. look what happened after zeligowski took over vilnius...thousands upon thousands of lithuanians learned lithuanian language and were hostile to everything that's polish. you may say that pilsudski helped consolidate kaunas lithuanians.
To reach this goal he used force. I can't imagine Adam Mickiewicz, Emilia Plater, even Tadeusz Kosciuzko (all polish lithuanians) going with guns to fight against brothers lithuanians. Pilsudski and Zeligowski were different... On the whole losing their ethnicity is a huge tragedy of Lithuania. We lost south Lithuania. We also lost Lithuania minor (protestant lithuanians from Klaipėda, Kaliningrad district and even nowadays polish Goldap) because they wanted to be with germans.
@renygma i wouldn't call them polish lithuanians. they were lithuanians who spoke polish as their first lanugage. you may add more recent polish speaking lithuanians such as czeslaw milosz and jerzy giedroyc. we lost full blooded poles to prussians too. in mazurian lakes region, lower silesia, pomerania. similar situation.
@renygma look, lithuanian pilsudski was so concerned with the east, fighting soviets and others but he left poles in tesin region and oppeln silesia undefended. czechs went into zaolzie and took over the whole area where half a million poles lived.
@polishranger Pilsudski “forgot “ Zaolzie, Silezia, but he didn’t forget to take Sejny, Punsk, old demographically lithuanian villages, beautiful lakes, hills. Today Lithuanian nationalists don’t need Vilnius (we have it), so generally they miss Suwalki region.
@renygma funny you should mention sejny (seinai) and punsk (punskas). i was talking about uprising in punsk few weeks ago or so. i think that since taking vilnius was somehow justified taking over punsk and sejny was unfair. did you know that after sejny uprising the entire POW (polska organizacja wojskowa or polish military organization) in kaunas was exposed and the coup prevented
@polishranger Indeed nationalism increased last time in Lithuania. Often it is related with tales and madness. It’s a new “fashion” that our ancestors were ancient sarmatians. “Sarmatia” is becoming more and more popular and these “sarmatians” are especially fanatic. Another example there is one “scientist” from Venezuela, who “proved” that earlier lithuanians were goths and they conquered Spain. Last summer she visited Lithuania. Audiences were crowded by excited patriots.
@polishranger Taryba (later Kaunas politics) didn’t ask Wilno people because it was a risk. Plebiscite? According to Kaunas - lithuanians and Byelorussians surely will vote for us, Most jews also . Although their real views were a secret. Jews looked very friendly to Kowno, but… some talked it’s better to live in a bigger country for their trade and so on. Then majority - poles...
@renygma nobody asked anybody. that's the problem. taryba told people of vilnius that they are not lithuanian. just before zeligowski entered vilnius the city was run by lithuanian administration with the language most of the people couldn't understand. lithuanians were divided between those who spoke polish and those who spoke lithuanian. FAMILIES WERE DIVIDED TOO. that division still exists
@renygma if you had a plebiscite in the whole area of today's lithuania you would get some votes for rzeczpospolita and some votes for separate lithuania in every part of the land. you would find some pro rzeczpospolita votes in kaunas, you'd find some pro lithuania votes in vilnius. it wasn't a clean cut. and if you had that vote in 1918 you'd get different results than in let's say 1926. both population became very polarized.
@renygma that division still exists today. look at polish speaking lithuanians. even now they are being told that they are just polish (i think they are both polish and lithuanian at the same time), public use of their language is criminalized. it's really sad. i think polish in eastern lithuania should be an official language and even as far as the whole republic of lithuania, polish should be the second official language. polish as the language a lof of lithuanians speak at home.
@polishranger You know better. Your family came from Wilno. Was it possible for Kaunas to win plebiscite in Vilnius? How many (half, one third, less) polish speaking lithuanians sympathized independent Lithuania?
@renygma i went for a walk with my mom last month and we were talking about lithuania. my mom told me that my grandmother's mother spoke lithuanian as her first language. so my grandmother was at least half lithuanian. but she couldn't speak lithuanian at all. her first husband (died either before or at the beginning of the war) was lithunian speaker too. here's the funny thing about my grandmother:
@renygma she was born in vilnius when vilnius was the capital of zeligowski's republic of central lithuania. her parents were lithuanian and polish speaking lithuanians and she was a POLISH PATRIOT. she loved pilsudski (who even had tea in my great grandfather's restaurant). she taught me polish patriotism but she never said a bad word about lithuanians. to my grandmother it was obvious that vilnius should be polish. that's how twisted the lithuanian history is.
@renygma she died almost a year ago but i haven't seen her since july 2001. i always thought that i will travel to poland and will take my grandmother to her beloved wilno. i always wanted to see the places she told me so much about when i was a child. oh well... it will never happen. her brothers (my mom's uncles) are deceased too. my all connections to vilnius are dead.
@polishranger No, it‘s propoganda. Polish public use of their language is not criminalized. I don‘t understand why politicians don‘t want let them write polish street names or polish surnames in passports, but on the whole it‘s good to be a pole in Lithuania. All education of polish schools (except some lessons ) is in polish language. There are more polish schools in Lithuania than in any other country. And so on.
Now polish language is not popular in Lithuania. Except a few districts near Vilnius. My polish is zero. I don‘t know any my friend (lithuanian) who could speak polish. Such is real situation. Of course some older people (including president Grybauskaite, politicians like Landsbergis) can speak,
@polishranger In the past (40-50 years ago) it was different. For example my grandmother sometimes tells how she participated in wedding celebration near Kėdainiai (Nevėžis river, north from Kaunas) and was very angry that everybody aroud spoke only in polish. But now it‘s impossible to make polish as national language. For our nationalists it could be more horrible than to drink bear with Pilsudski and Zeligowski at the same table.
@polishranger I‘m sorry for your grandmother. May she rest in peace. Maybe somewhere in heavens God gave her eternal Wilno... and nobody will ever take it away from her.... I‘m sure someday you will visit Vilnius. I see you know about the city much more than common pole or lithuanian. So Vilnius is your town. It waits for you.
@renygma that's alright. my grandmother was just a few months shy of being 90. let us all live such a long life. vilnius is in my blood but i can't wait for the time when vilnius will become the city of brotherhood between poles and lithuanians.
@renygma today this division of lithuanian nation still continues. polish speaking lithuanians are discriminated against only because they speak the language that was the official language of lithuania for centuries and the language so many lithuanian spoke at home.
@PolskiNarodowiecND funny you should mention religion... it was lithuanian catholic church that destroyed polish language in pre war lithuania. it was the bishops and the priests that killed polish language in lauda area. now do you know why lithuanian pilsudski told another lithuanian zeligowski to take vilinus? do you know history at all?
Would you relinquish your claims to your property?Would you get it out of your memory just because some thief stole your property from you?Would you give up Lublin or Białystok if some foreign country occupied it from Poland?I wouldn't.Where will that constant stupidity and softness and lack of pursuing our national interests lead us?Other nations learned it long long ago that they just need to steal something from us and we'll gladly accept it and lick their boots.That's suicide
@PolskiNarodowiecND lublin and bialystok are polish historicly and demographicaly. those two cities have nothing to do with our discussion about vilnius. you say property... how is vilnius polish property? what is poland's claim to vilnius? you say stupidity and softness... how is common sense anti polish? when (apart from 1922-1939) has vilnius (wilno) ever been polish???
No Pole ever speaks the way you do therefore you must be a Samogotian pretending to be a Pole.'I am a Pole,therefore I have Polish duties' - Roman Dmowski.You don't follow the duties of a Pole so you must repent.
@polishranger 'are you a lithuanian provocateur trying to make us poles look silly?'
I think that it is you who is a Lithuanian provocateur PRETENDING TO BE A POLE BUT SPEAKING LIKE A LITHUANIAN.NO CONSCIOUS AND MORAL POLE SAYS WHAT YOU SAY.
@PolskiNarodowiecND my family comes from vilnius. you peasants need to leave this matter to us, the city dwellers and us who originate from wilno. vilnius is a historical capitol of lithuania. for centuries people comming from vilnius(and the whole area) called themselves LITHUANIANS. it didn't matter what lanugage they spoke (majority of lithuania spoke polish you know?). pilsudski, zeligowski all those great men regarded themselves as lithuanian. now...
@PolskiNarodowiecND now some lithuanians wanted to be still tied to poland, some wanted lithuania to be independent part of polish, lithuanian and belarussian federation and some lithuanians wanted to be totally independants. it was the stupid kaunas (kowno) lithuanians who started claiming that to be lithuanian you need to speak lithuanian at home. they started lithuananizing those lithuanians who spoke polish or were polish patriots.
@PolskiNarodowiecND now after 1918 lithuania had historic claim to vilnius and we had demographic claim to vilnius. only 3% of the city's population spoke lithuanian. majority wanted to be part of rzeczpospolita (the commonwealth). you can say that in 1922 wilno was ethnically polish. can you make this claim today??? what you're saying is against the interest of the polish nation.
' majority wanted to be part of rzeczpospolita (the commonwealth)'
No.They wanted to join Poland - not Rzeczpospolita/the Commonwealth.That's big difference.Poland was and is a unitary country whereas the Commonwealth would mean that thy wanted to bo part of a federation between Poland and Lithuania and that was not the case.
@skoblinI Vilna is the Yiddish and the Russian name, Wilna is the German name for the old Lithuanian capital. But as it held a Polish ethnic majority after the 16th century, the name of Wilno is common too.
its strange how all polish population that lived in territories that not were polish, not suffered what the poles suffered during the world war, i say by the huge huge polish population in Vilnius.
Kalvarija liberated from Soviet atheists. Wilna (Polish: Wilno, Lithuanian: Vilnius) had an ethnic Polish majority, the Pilsudski mausoleum, and a Jewish population, so only the small Lithuanian minority greeted the German invaders in 1941. The Polish govt. in exile of London in 1941 temporarily allied with the USSR. So Armia Krajowa in Wilno started to combat the German occupiers. But ended up: betrayed by Churchill and Roosevelt's communist lovers in 1945.
Lithuania's language is lithuanian. We cant understand people talking polish or russian if we don't learn these languages. It doesn't matter what was 50 or 300 years ago. Important that we have our own individual language, individual culture! That means that we are Lithuanians and we belong to us. Before saying just heard things from somebody come visit and learn more and only then let your tongue move.
Kalvarija (Polish: Kalwaria) was also partly Polish inhabited.
The Vilnius Region in 1940 was transferred to (neutral) Republic of Lithuania by the Soviet Union. In 1923 it had united itself with Poland, as its Polish population wished to belong to Poland, not Lithuania. But historical borders are complicated. Like Meseritz was historically a Polish royal city, in 1919 it wanted to belong to Germany, not Poland. Polish nationalists only think entire Europe is Polish though. Sadly.
Vilnius (Polish: Wilno) was historically the capital of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which for centuries was in a Catholic monarchical union-state with the Kingdom of Poland (since 1386, esp. since 16th century). Demographically, until 1940/1946, majority of Vilnius was Polish-speaking. Even today, in the countryside, non-expelled Polish farmers form the majority. Historically, it is the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but ethnically it is clearly Polish this region. Both groups very Catholic though.
@IustitiaPax ethnically it is Lithuanian. and so called ,,polish,, here in Lithuania are speaking in some strange dialect, polish language mixed with russian and lithuanian. Usually uneducated but somehow snobish bastards they are. Vilnius ( not Vilno) is not ethnically polish, it is only infested by pseudopolish invaders and communist scum.
@arimanaz Dear, you should stop insulting the self-identifying Polish minority in eastern Lithuania. The Wilno-Vilnius Polish majority (75 % in 1919) was indeed partially Polonized Lithuanians, but they too in 1946 chose to emigrate to Polish-occupied Breslau and Kolberg and Danzig. Tutejsi is the name of the Polish-speaking former Ruthenians and former Lithuanians. But Polish nobles of west Lithuania now identify as Lithuanians. You were once ONE MONARCHY under GOD. Cherish history please!
@arimanaz Ethnogenesis is complex and national identity is too. 30 % of the Polish people are Polonized former Germans (like Maksymilian Kolbe was of German descent, or Józef Beck was of German-Flemish descent). In the end, it boils down to modern national identity and especially mothertongue or language of the family. I do not like extreme nationalism, I like patriotism. Extreme nationalism is too categorical. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was more tolerant, a great but a bit weak state.
@Gattamella From the analysis of last names in Poland by the Jagiellonian University on German heritage in Poland. In Malopolska and southeastern Poland it is even far higher degree due to Walddeutsche (whose last names were polonized entirely too, as assimilation took place before censuses of the 18th century). Even in Lomza most were once Catholic ethnic German refugees from Lutheranized 1525 Prussia: like Ryszard Bender (Lublin prof).
@IustitiaPax In XVI, XVII century it was one of the strongest countries of the world. In XVIII century the Republic was in crisis so the 3 occupiers used this situation to steal the Commonwealth`s territories and independence. Prussia betrayed Poland in 1792 - this is also a very important fact. The Holy Roman Empire was in crisis in 1683, but unlike Prussia, Poland was loyal to her ally. Remember that.
@RitterDesHimmels1 Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you, Ritter. Entirely. The Polish monarchy and the Polish nobility were always loyal allies. Despite the chaotic organization and fractionalism inside the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Jan III Sobieski is one of my heroes!
In democratic states there is always chaos. In Totalitarian states there is always "ordnung". German historiography since XVIII century is trying to justify the obvious crime: partitions of Poland. That`s why they say lies that the Polish nobility didn`t resisted against the occupation, that Poland was always a near anarchy land etc. But you must remember one thing: Prussia and Russia were "defending" the chaos in Rzeczpospoilta - that`s why they were blocking all reforms using even force.
@arimanaz - I guess you have the same problem as some Poles do witht the German past of their cities. Vilnius is today an ethnic Lithuanian city on ethnically Lithuanian land. Poles started settling there in Commonwealth times and polonisation of nobility took place first. But whom and why you call "bastards", "invaders" and "communist scum"?
@Gattamella it is because of my personal experience, my friend. these unplesent fealings are sad results of wat I see in old streets of my beloved sity. not because I am some demented nazi. It is becaus of these ,, polish" or ,,russian" , every day demanding new rights and taking no responsibility. They make our streets unsafe to walk at night.
@arimanaz - fair enough, whatever your experential knowledge says... I cant dispute that. I just find it odd that you are lumping Poles together with commies and Russians... I find it even more bizzare since Lithuanian Poles, and I know a few, are nothing of the sort. You could hardly find more self-conscious, Catholic and anti-Bolshevik people.
@Gattamella Gattamella, we agree! On the Lithuania-based Poles of eastern Lithuania. And of Nowogródek. Very anti-Bolshevist Poles. And true Latin Catholics, despite partial Ruthenian ancestry in the high middle ages. (I love Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth history, a history also coined and shared by millions of Germans who lived in Wielkopolska and Royal Prussia).
@IustitiaPax - yes. well those were a bit more sober times. not tainted by the easy nationalism and socialism for masses.
30%-90% of the inhabitants of certain Southern villages descend from Walddeutsche, thats well possible. Masovia however had very little German settlement apart from Vistulean towns. Lomza and Ostroleka districts had some Masurians from Protestant Prussia (Kurpie), thats ture, but those were primarily descended from Polish settlers from Culmerland and Dobrzyn land, afaik.
@Gattamella You may be correct on the Kulmer Land assimilated Germans. IN fact, the Kulmer Land Poles and Germans all come from the same families. Germanization, Polonization, even at the same time, occurred. It depended on the local parish priests and the trade contacts. Lomza has a lot of German surnames indeed. That is all. Of course I know that Masovia is the most Polish of all districts, along with Podkarpackie (apart from Polonized Ukrainians). Polish ethnogenesis is complex. Like Swiss.
Exactly. Poland is only Mazovia. Every else regions, must become disjunct for every neighbours of Poland. Even Wielkopolska. Wielkopolska was Poland, but long ago. Klaus Kiński was Pole. Why? Identical criteria as in the matter of Copernicus.
Even in the hypothetical situation in which Vilna was in 100% living by Eskimos, do not forget that the always this city was most important a part of Lithuania and a most important place at heart of every Lithuanian. No region has the right to announce the secession, without the question of the rest of the country for the opinion. My emotional relation to this act is identical as in Gdańsk.
@AZsaturn Why do you think nowadays Lithuania is the only successor of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania?
"No region has the right to announce the secession" - Lithuania should have remain part of the Commonwealth. Pre-war Wilno was 1 of 4 most important centers of Polish culture. Dansig before WWII was not a Polish city out of political perspective. It was inhibited mostly by Germans.
@AZsaturn "this city was most important a part of Lithuania and a most important place at heart of every Lithuanian" - It was the most important city not only for Lithuanians. But also for Belorussians and many Poles (like Józef Piłsudski). The only way to avoid conflict in this situation was to create "Intermarum" federation. But Lithuanians rejected this proposition.
Because I would be a hypocrite, if in the matter of Vilna and Gdańsk I used double standards. I use such themselves standards. But Gdańsk was not a capital city of Poland. So, the loss of this place was not so painful as hypothetical secession of the capital city. Vilna was always a capital city of Lithuania. The group of bigheads will not change this. I do not care a tinker′s cuss who there lived. I take caree who was a ruler of this city, always.
@AZsaturn "I take caree who was a ruler of this city, always." - the Polish Kings.
Grand Duchy of Lithuania until 1699 was a Ruthenian state and later it have become a sister state of the Polish Crown were dominated Polish culture and Polish identity.
Internationally, Commonwealth was one subject. But in matter of internal, Constitution 3 May, liquidated separateness between Lithuania and Poland. The monarchs were Kings of Poland and Grand Dukes of Lithuania. Even today on Lithuania lives many Poles. Lithuanians who living in Vilna knows Polish language. They still are angry. They declare illegal bilingual boards and to Poles in identifical cards forbid to write Polish surnames. The miracle that legal few Polish schools. Angry generations.
@AZsaturn I definitely disagree that nowadays Lithuania is the only successor of the Grand Duchy. You should read an article in wikipedia called: "Litwini w znaczeniu historycznym"
The anonymity in the internet is a myth. But generally the matter seizing, editors of Wikipedia are to the anonymous. In the true encyclopaedia, every article is verified by several onymous research workers before publish. You speak so, if the pause in the existence of Lithuania lasted so long as the time between the end of ancient Egypt and with the beginning of present Egypt.
@RitterDesHimmels1 The ethnic nation-state is not a successor to ancient monarchies indeed. You are mostly correct. AZsaturn however claims and claimed royal Polish fortresses in Lebus (Germany) and justifies killing German-speaking Danzig children in 1946, with the Polish Kingdom's borders in 1466-1772. So he cannot do otherwise with Lithuania either. Of course Italy is not the successor to the Roman Empire either. Nor was artificial Czechoslovakia to Greater Moravia or kingdom of Bohemia.
@IustitiaPax There are no nations that are guilty. There are always specific people who should be blamed. Nothing can justify the murder of innocent children. Although it`s also important to admit that the communist regime was elected not by the Polish society but by the U.S.S.R. They were mostly thugs with no sense of honor who reigned in Poland only because of the support of the "reds". And we can`t also blame Poles for the crimes committed by the Red Army - which would be an absurd.
Of course that nations are not guilty. I make no jeer. All crimes of national socialists it committed thousands of officers and non-commissioned officers. The rest, only they executed orders. Millions committed other crimes: The passiveness or the help to his own terrible rulers. Chosen democratically in completely honest elections.
@AZsaturn Passiveness is indeed a great sin. When good people do nothing they aren`t good. But we must remember that not all people who were expelled could resist against the Nazi policy.
@AZsaturn Well, the NSDAP only received 29.8 % of votes in Jan 1933 elections, in 1932 they gained 32.5 %. They were already loosing again. Hitler just mutineered and took over the ship of the Reich government in 1933 after his appointment to Reich Chancellor. The Germans never elected a Nazi dictatorship, but I agree that the Nazi government in fact after 1940 due to Allied anti-Germany destruction plans gained nearly total support (but their racial policy of antisemitism NEVER did!).
@RitterDesHimmels1 Wladyslaw Gomulka's ministry and policy was supported by a majority of the Polish people. The Poles selectively picked and chose what they liked from Polish national Communism. National Communism used nationalism and Slavic ideology too. The expelled Germans killed were not killed by the Soviet Army. I am talking about 1946, NOT about Feb 1945 or Nemmersdorf! At least the Polish bishops in 1965 asked for forgiveness... But the Polish public opinion continues hatred and denial!
@IustitiaPax Nobody denies that many Germans were murdered during the expulsions - we only want the truth about the real number of victims murdered by Poles.
@RitterDesHimmels1 Oh yes, AZsaturn denied that the Germans were murdered during the Expulsions. You do not, thanks be to God. If you want truth, you cannot constantly keep denying that Polish soldiers and Polish authorities committed mass murders. This is all documented by Polish (anonymized) and German witnesses. Polish witnesses are still afraid: the perpetrators of the Expulsion genocide are still partially alive, and they may enact revenge.
First give photos and evidences of onymous witnesses. Leastwise only evidences of onymous witnesses. Afterwards you can await from me repentances and implorations for the forgiveness. Every court in the world does not acknowledge evidences of anonymous witnesses. I negate to all not proved crimes. You promote your own tales, but I see that giving of proofs hurts to you. If you have witnesses, you should hurry up , to induce them to evidences. Because perhaps they are old people.
@AZsaturn The Polish population only fought against its own curtailing by the Communist government. But the Polish population in majority supported Gomulka's propaganda and Gomulka's policies. Still today, you repeat the propaganda he spread and you repeat the Instytut Zachodnich (Poznan) historical falsification you were taught in school. There was little mercy or charity towards killed Reich Germans and killed ethnic Germans. Poles gladly helped in deportations!
Completely I do not assume why. Perhaps with the reason of 150 years of persecutions from hands of "master race"? Varsavians did not have where to live, so took this what them themselves to belong. Tell to me about disgusting thesis of the Western Institute. What are worse from archaeologists on services of Goebels?
@IustitiaPax Nonsense, Gomułka had the support of people only at the beginning - because he was imprisoned by Stalin. But after a short time he lost the support of the nation.
@RitterDesHimmels1 In the 1960s, Gomułka's anti-German rants were viewed by all Polish tv viewers and supported. You sent me an article on it yourself, man!
@IustitiaPax The communist propaganda in Poland treated FRG and GDR otherwise. GDR according to words of the propaganda, was lived by men which were an example of all virtues. Meanwhile in FRG, according to the propaganda, lived people prepared themselves to the development of the atomic war. Gomułka acquired fame from the talkativeness. But when spoke about Germans, the style and opinions were dependent from this whether lived in FRG or GDR. This is FACT.
@AZsaturn That is because the GDR (DDR) was built on a system of ideological lies and denial of the Historical German east also. The GDR never prepared for atomic war, although Adenauer wanted some West German missiles too, but the western Allies never trusted any German military. Today again, entire Germany is demonized as "revanchist" by Polish colonists and the Polish colonial regime in Warsaw and Breslau.
I spoke about the difference in which manner the communist propaganda spoke about FRG and GDR. I did not speak that something like this I acknowledged. In Poland not exist persona publicas which official demonize Germany.
The borders of XX-century's countries should be based on an intelligent compromise between the historical and ethnic territories. When the villages around Munich would be inhibited mostly by Czechs it wouldn`t make out of t one of three most important centers of German culture - Czech territory. I understand why Lithuanians and Belorussians wanted Vilnius. It was impossible to establish a justice borders of central European countries after WW I - that`s why intermarum was a brilliant idea.
@RitterDesHimmels1 If you make this compromise, then Poland will have to cede the ancient German territories to Germany directly in 2011. There were never Czech villages around Munich. In fact, Prague was until 1866 a German majority city in Czech-majority Bohemian centre lands. You could compare the Protectorate of Bohemia and MOravia with the Republic of Central Lithuania, rather than vice-versa. But the German acts are condemned, and Polish acts are glorified by AZsaturn.
@IustitiaPax I think that now the borders shouldn`t be changed because it would only mean another war.
"You could compare the Protectorate of Bohemia.." - nonsense my friend the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was an ethnic Czech territory. Central Lithuania wasn`t even mixed Polish-Lithuanian territory but ethnically Polish mostly land.
You could compare the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia with the Lithuanian occupation of the Vilnius region in 1918.
Poland never occupied Ethnic Lithuania. I wouldn`t condemn the German annexation of Dansig in 1939 because it wasn`t mixed Polish-German city - but ethnically German territory. But I definitely condemn the occupation of half of the pre-war Polish territory in 1939.
@RitterDesHimmels1 AZsaturn lives in Danzig, and he believes that royal Polish history of Danzig justifies the Polish war cause of 1939. If Danzig had been ceded to Germany, no war would have occurred. But Poland thought it could "defeat Germany within three weeks" with France invading from the west and Britain through Holland and Lower Saxony. Of course I agree with you on the Wartheland: Wielkopolska is original Polish land. Although parts were ethnic German like Vilnius Region was ethnic PL.
@IustitiaPax "If Danzig had been ceded to Germany, no war would have occurred." - read "main kampf".
There are witnesses who heard that Hitler said "It`s not a war about Dansig"
Germans didn`t wanted only Sudetenland because one year after the annexation of Sudetenland they invaded the rest of the country. And so they didn`t wanted only to annex Dansig but much more Polish territory to create "Lebensraum".
Prussia and Reich were an uncontrollable glutton. Before September Campania, Reich gained new grounds without shot. Too terrifying these which should oppose. Somebody, at last, had to oppose, because this glutton would gain increasingly and would laugh aller. Because indeed this was plaintive. Polish authority over the Free City was pure symbolical. Ached very much us the lack of the return of this Cracow of the North. But so disgraceful the renewed loss, would be inadmissible.
"The ethnic nation-state is not a successor to ancient monarchies indeed." So, Republic of France is not successor of Kingdom of France. Why "ancient monarchies"? What is this? You should know that the antiquity ended in the day of the fall Western Roman Empire? Then existed no present state. 146 years then not so long time.
@AZsaturn In my opinion there exist no ethnic national-states. Nowadays European countries like France and Germany can`t be recognized as national states. Because of the high percentage of national minorities . Sooner than later Turks and other Muslims will become the majority of population in some German regions. According to Wilson and IustitiaPax fantasies that will give them the right create Central European Turkey Republic on the German territory.
@RitterDesHimmels1 Immigrant minorities change nothing about the 1900s status of a state. Of course France had another development history. I am speaking about Wilsonian concepts for Eastern and Central Europe. The Muslims will never dominate Germany; the reaction is already showing up. But catastrophes will follow. Civil wars in larger cities. But you Poles should fear that your NATO and pro-American missiles will provoke Russian anger soon!
All people worldwide, once were immigrants. When passed generations, became natives. What are worse present immigrants? Will pass several generations, will be local people. Perhaps nowadays, each times presidents of the Uncle Sam are almost lords of our planet. But you speak about Wilson. Lord only in his part of the world.
@RitterDesHimmels1 The NATO and US missiles to be stationed in eastern and northern Poland are a clear violation of the military balance as far as Russian-administered northern East Prussia (Kaliningradskaya Oblast) is concerned. I am not per se anti-NATO, but I hate military provocations in Europe and elsewhere. The Russian Federation is worried, and we should not provoke the Russian Bear. I would not take sides for Russia ever though. I am a West European. But I hate "mourir pour Pologne".
@IustitiaPax This anti-missiles are not able to attack but only to defend us against missiles. We have the right to defend ourselves even if you think something else.
@RitterDesHimmels1 Do you believe this yourself? Missiles can be launched to any target in Russia. Also, I do not question Polish defence mechanisms, but I condemn atomic re-armament. Poland without questioning allowed CIA torture centres in Masuria etc. It is the slave-like following of Anglo-American strategy, like 1939. You will be sacrificed again, do not have any illusions.
If really terrorists were imprisoned in compactly secret Polish prisons, the then this information would be secret for many years. You think that Polish special services are talkative? For you, the reliability of the gossip, is dependent from this, against whom works this gossip.
@RitterDesHimmels1 I hate to be obliged as a Dutch soldier to die for Poland or Polish anti-Russian interests. Now, the relations seem fine, but the Apr 2010 staged Kaczynski Smolensk-Katyn air crash will burden Polish-Russian relations. Especially once PiS comes to power again, or when Komorowski's corruption on gas pipelines is exposed. I do not want Poland to make the same mistake it made in 1939 again. Because I love the Polish people in fact, even if you may not believe me! War is hell.
@IustitiaPax "I do not want Poland to make the same mistake it made in 1939 again." - yes terrible mistake we did we were simply trying to defend our freedom from German and Russian imperialism.
@RitterDesHimmels1 I mean the Polish threats against Germany from April 1939 until Aug 31, 1939. The alliance and pacts with England and France. The Soviet internationalism was not "Russian imperialism". Stalin was no tsar, and the USSR was not the Russian Empire. This is what I mean by Russophobia and paranoia of Poland even today in 2010.
@IustitiaPax Because Józef Beck said "peace is very valuable but we in Poland doesn`t know the word: peace at any cost" - His policy to resist against Russian and German imperialism was correctly. If the UK and France would have done the same there would be no 2`nd World War.
The USSR was a new form of the Russian Empire. Do you know what Stalin said to his Mother when he saw her for the last time: (if I remember correctly it was in 1937) "I`m something like a new Tsar".
seig hei.
lolita19711 4 months ago
Vilnius is our forewer and fuck of :)
gauditojas 6 months ago
ashame they didnt attack capitalism together!germany and russia against the tru beast!hitler is childsplay compared to rothchild,rockefeller,morgan,bush,and the other demons that run the capitalist monster!even other planets are afraid of us because of our selfish and cowardly nature!
tommy1973able 8 months ago 2
@mnplastic1 at your expense.Then the Lithuanians finally understood that we weren't going to put up with their cheatings anymore.We had been paying huge sums of money only to let Lithuania stay alive facing Russia so we demanded Lithuania to join Poland.We were the ones that Lithuania owes its existence and freedoms for so many centuries so why should they make wxcuses and live on Polish expense?The European Union is,as I've written before already,a union of independent countries
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND Are you so naive or pretend to be naive? :))
Lets guess how many years Russians would have needed to annex Poland after the annexation of Lithuania? Poles understood it very well and this is why they provided support. The problem for the Lithuanian Polish union was that Poles also wanted to annex Lithuania, so instead of having two strong allies we had squabbling frenemies.
mnplastic1 8 months ago
to PolskiNarodowiecND
"I just wanted every one to know that it belonged to Poland..." You mean was occupied by polish before russians, and now finally belongs to people who established - lithuanians?
jushka1981 9 months ago
Mes Lietuviu Ne lenkai
chicagolugan 10 months ago 2
Litauen war damals nicht ein Teil der U.d.S.S.R.
notaire2 10 months ago
@skoblinI
I just wanted every one to know that it belonged to Poland.It was occupied by Russia (1939-1941),then Germany (1941-1944) and after 1944 again by Russia by legally it was still Poland's city.We will never forget about that Polish city and regain it by any means necessary because we were innocent and other thuggish countries just took it from us and the Potsdam Conference legalised Russia's criminal occupation.
PolskiNarodowiecND 11 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND Could you write also from when and until when Vilnius belonged to Poland? :)
mnplastic1 8 months ago
@mnplastic1
Indirectly since 1386 to 1569 (personal union with Poland) and directly since 1569 to 1795 (Lithuania joined Poland directly in the Lublin Union) and since 1918 to 1945.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND That is wonderfull example of your logic :)
Indirectly Krakow and all Poland belong to Lithuania, because of the same Union since 1386 to 1569 and directly from 1569.
You should find out how the Comonwealth was called. The Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It is like saying Paris belongs to Germany because France and Germany belong to EU or NATO. EU also has 1 president.
This Polish humor sence :) Now go and read where the border of Poland was until 1919.
mnplastic1 8 months ago
@mnplastic1
instead of a real union,one country.That's a huge difference friend.Besides,Lithuanian nobility wanted very much to live in Poland with the Polish nobility's immense freedoms,unheard of anywhere in the world at that time.Since 1505,10% of Poles already had voting rights.England,which is so often mentioned s a forefront of freedoms in Europe,achieved and surpassed that result only in mid XIXth century!Not to mention other European countries...
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND Give this European Union 200-300 years and then we will see about huge difference. There are many things including, borders, taxes etc. which are even now more unifying in EU then in the Commonwealth.
mnplastic1 8 months ago
@mnplastic1
The last sentence of the Krewo agreement stated that prince Jagiełło of Lithuania who was to marry the Polish king Jadwiga (king not queen though a woman!) that he 'promises to let his Lithuanian and Ruthenian lands join the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland'.
Poles had had enough of Lithuanian dodging of the Krewo agreements so my ancestors decided to let Ivan the Terrible and his Russia have fun
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND Do you mean Krevos intentions protocol after which followed one "agreement" after another but not even once Lithuania became part of Polish Crown?
Yes, Lithuania lost some wars against Muscovite but due to Polish stupidity and annoying Polonization both countries disappeared from the map.
It is obvious you have not learned from the mistakes by attacking and alienating all your neighbors and even allies before the WWII which again ended in deletion from the maps.
mnplastic1 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND you simplified this too much. why would today's poland want vilnius (wilno, vilnius) back? it was much more complicated in 1919 than it is today. in 1919 you might have said that historically vilnius is lithuanian but demographically it's polish. can you make similar claim today? how would poland benefit from regaining vilnius? how does polish nation benefit from you saying those things?
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger fuck off poland busters
bacilijus 8 months ago
@bacilijus don't get too excited, it's not healthy for ya. it seems to me, you don't really speak english but if you do, please be kind enough and tell me which point that i was trying to raise don't you agree with the most.
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
Well,after 70 years of installing lithuanianism into Polish Wilno,it's pretty irritating for me to hear those kinds of questions.Of course it should return to Poland as it was illegally grabbed by the USSR's Lithuanian Republic.How would Poland benefit from having Vilnius?And how would ou benefit from having another beautifull room in your house?
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND ohhh ok then. so you think poland should grab a city where only 20% of the population speaks polish and make it polish again? and while doing that do we give szczecin and wroclaw back to the germans. in 1919 question of wilno was still open. today it isn't. you really think we need more national minorites in poland like we had before 1939? seriously how does it really benefit poland? are you a lithuanian provocateur trying to make us poles look silly?
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
'and while doing that do we give szczecin and wroclaw back to the germans'
The case with Poland isNOT THE SAME as the case with Germany.Poland was innocent whilst Germany was all guilty so no! - the Eastern Borderlands must return to Poland and the Germans may forget about their former territories.Unless they can undo the genoicide that they did on Poles and the destruction of Poland.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@polishranger
' ohhh ok then. so you think poland should grab a city where only 20% of the population speaks polish and make it polish again?'
Ohhh - and why not???The Lithuanians and Soviets DIDN'T CARE ONE BIT THAT ALMOST ALL VILNIANS WERE POLES IN 1939!After they occupied it,they started changing the national majority status of Poles in that Polish city.So I don't care that nowadays Poles are not in the majority BECAUSE THEY EXPELLED POLES!!!!!You didn't care so don't demand it from me.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND ok, so you are a communist then. you think we should do what the bolsheviks did. if dmowski were alive today, he'd spit in your face.
polishranger 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND where in poland are you from? my family's from vilna. they left in 1945. my grandmother's uncle was in AK and after AK liberated vilnius soviets put him on a siberia bound train. my great grandfather paid railroad workers and they smuggled him out dressed in railroad uniform. my family is from there and which village in south eastern poland do you come from? what is your connection to vilnius wiesniaku?
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
,,what is your connection to vilnius wiesniaku?"
Jestem Polakiem i to jest mój związek z Wilnem prowokatorze żmudziński.Nie kłam mi,że jesteś Polakiem bo żaden Polak tak nie mówi tylko Żmudzin.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND what are you trying to say you communist pig? that only idiots like you can be polish? that there are no free thinking polish people? i would like to hear you say " W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie" i bet you wouldn't be able to pronounce it you lithuanian provocateur. you're here to make polish people look like imbeciles. btw what do you think dmowski would say about this crap you're spewing here? he'd be on my side on this. i guarantee it.
polishranger 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND you forgot to answer me which south eastern village you're from peasant.
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
Polish town you Samogotian subversive pretending to be a Pole!
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND i just want you to know how lucky you are. normally i don't bother talking to idiots this long but today i'm killing time. to illustrate how ill informed you are, let's look and the shit comming out of your keyboard. 1) samogotians (half a million of them) are an enthnic group not recognized by lithuanian government. why would a polish patriot like me be smogotian? you make no sense.
polishranger 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND i knew you came from a little town for you don't sound like a person from a city. now... my family was brutalized. in 1945 they were put on a cattle train and sent to gdansk. there they were given houses from which german families were taken away in a box car. why would anybody be stupid enough to think that we should brutalize lithuanians now because "we could use a nice room in our pretty house"?
polishranger 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND you're a pagan and for you this seems normal. i am a christian and to me no one has the right to kill and remove anyone from their rightfull land. you can sound stupid, you can make people think poles are arrogant and stupid but you won't change the fact that vilnius is lithuanian, no other country is contesting it and vilnius will forever be lithuanian.
polishranger 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND now look who owned vilnius in the last 100yrs.: russian empire, germany during WW1, republic of lithuania, middle lithuania (litwa srodkowa), poland, soviet union, republic of lithuania, soviet union again, nazi germany, armia krajowa for a few hours, soviet union once more, soviet socialist republic of lithuania within soviet union and finally independant lithuania. why would vilnius be polish now?
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
Because all of them have occupied our Polish Wilno,that's why.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND you really need to tell me why in your opinion vilnius is polish. just lie down on a couch (like you do every thursday) and tell me how historic capital of lithuania is polish.
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
You won't understand because talking to a protestant is like talking to a tree - one may talk 10 hours and the tree will still be a tree.What was stolen must be returned.Poland had Wilno for 450 years plus 100 years under the partitions where it was one of our cultural centres.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND my religion has nothing to do with it here. poland never had wilno for 450yrs. during partition wilno was part of the russian empire. vilnius belonged to poland only between 1922 and 1939. it has always been a part of grand duchy of lithuania. you need to educate yourself so you don't sound as stupid. and don't use my christian faith as an excuse not to answer my questions. you have no basis for wanting vilnius.
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
Respect to you, brother pole, for your honesty. That Wilno (Vilnius) is Lithuania. I'm lithuanian. I read your conversation with PolskiNarodowiec. He should look at a mirror and then see a picture of reasons why many lithuanians don't like poles.
renygma 2 months ago
@renygma actually my views are more complicated than that. poles and lithuanians bend history their way but forget the truth that after 1918 lithuanian nation was split in half between those who wanted be a part of rzeczpospolita again and those who wanted independent lithuania. polish speaking lithuanian pilsudski took vilnius because lithuanians living there were polish speakers and wanted to be part of rzeczpospolita.
polishranger 2 months ago
For me the main aspect is polish speaking lithuanians preferred Poland than Lithuania. They wanted to be part of Poland not rzeczpospolita. Pilsudski could create "Lithuania" consisting from Wilno, Grodno, Lida (for example as an autonomous part of Poland state). To show what he wants and he respect grand duchy. But he created Województwo wileńskie.
renygma 2 months ago
@renygma it's a bit more complicated than that. there was not such thing as poland nor as rzeczpospolita for 123 years. and all that time FREEDOM had different meaning to lithuanians. it meant being free of russian occupation but some wanted independent lithuania, some wanted reactivation of rzeczpospolita. it was the members of taryba who in 1918 told citizens of vilnius that they were not lithuanian because they didn't speak lithuanian.
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma nobody asked lithuanians which option they'd prefer. taryba didn't have the mandate to represent all lithuanians when they decided on independent lithuania, pilsudski didn't have the mandate to send zeligowski to vilnius. historians and politicians in poland and lithuania used this conflict for decades to justify their stupidity.
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma i said it many times. instead of wojewodztwo wilenskie, they should have created wojewodztwo litewskie with polish, lithuanian and belorussian as the official languages of the wojewodztwo. look what happened after zeligowski took over vilnius...thousands upon thousands of lithuanians learned lithuanian language and were hostile to everything that's polish. you may say that pilsudski helped consolidate kaunas lithuanians.
polishranger 2 months ago
To reach this goal he used force. I can't imagine Adam Mickiewicz, Emilia Plater, even Tadeusz Kosciuzko (all polish lithuanians) going with guns to fight against brothers lithuanians. Pilsudski and Zeligowski were different... On the whole losing their ethnicity is a huge tragedy of Lithuania. We lost south Lithuania. We also lost Lithuania minor (protestant lithuanians from Klaipėda, Kaliningrad district and even nowadays polish Goldap) because they wanted to be with germans.
renygma 2 months ago
@renygma i wouldn't call them polish lithuanians. they were lithuanians who spoke polish as their first lanugage. you may add more recent polish speaking lithuanians such as czeslaw milosz and jerzy giedroyc. we lost full blooded poles to prussians too. in mazurian lakes region, lower silesia, pomerania. similar situation.
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma look, lithuanian pilsudski was so concerned with the east, fighting soviets and others but he left poles in tesin region and oppeln silesia undefended. czechs went into zaolzie and took over the whole area where half a million poles lived.
polishranger 2 months ago
@polishranger Pilsudski “forgot “ Zaolzie, Silezia, but he didn’t forget to take Sejny, Punsk, old demographically lithuanian villages, beautiful lakes, hills. Today Lithuanian nationalists don’t need Vilnius (we have it), so generally they miss Suwalki region.
renygma 2 months ago
@renygma funny you should mention sejny (seinai) and punsk (punskas). i was talking about uprising in punsk few weeks ago or so. i think that since taking vilnius was somehow justified taking over punsk and sejny was unfair. did you know that after sejny uprising the entire POW (polska organizacja wojskowa or polish military organization) in kaunas was exposed and the coup prevented
polishranger 2 months ago
@polishranger Indeed nationalism increased last time in Lithuania. Often it is related with tales and madness. It’s a new “fashion” that our ancestors were ancient sarmatians. “Sarmatia” is becoming more and more popular and these “sarmatians” are especially fanatic. Another example there is one “scientist” from Venezuela, who “proved” that earlier lithuanians were goths and they conquered Spain. Last summer she visited Lithuania. Audiences were crowded by excited patriots.
renygma 2 months ago
@polishranger Taryba (later Kaunas politics) didn’t ask Wilno people because it was a risk. Plebiscite? According to Kaunas - lithuanians and Byelorussians surely will vote for us, Most jews also . Although their real views were a secret. Jews looked very friendly to Kowno, but… some talked it’s better to live in a bigger country for their trade and so on. Then majority - poles...
renygma 2 months ago
@renygma nobody asked anybody. that's the problem. taryba told people of vilnius that they are not lithuanian. just before zeligowski entered vilnius the city was run by lithuanian administration with the language most of the people couldn't understand. lithuanians were divided between those who spoke polish and those who spoke lithuanian. FAMILIES WERE DIVIDED TOO. that division still exists
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma if you had a plebiscite in the whole area of today's lithuania you would get some votes for rzeczpospolita and some votes for separate lithuania in every part of the land. you would find some pro rzeczpospolita votes in kaunas, you'd find some pro lithuania votes in vilnius. it wasn't a clean cut. and if you had that vote in 1918 you'd get different results than in let's say 1926. both population became very polarized.
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma that division still exists today. look at polish speaking lithuanians. even now they are being told that they are just polish (i think they are both polish and lithuanian at the same time), public use of their language is criminalized. it's really sad. i think polish in eastern lithuania should be an official language and even as far as the whole republic of lithuania, polish should be the second official language. polish as the language a lof of lithuanians speak at home.
polishranger 2 months ago
@polishranger You know better. Your family came from Wilno. Was it possible for Kaunas to win plebiscite in Vilnius? How many (half, one third, less) polish speaking lithuanians sympathized independent Lithuania?
renygma 2 months ago
@renygma i went for a walk with my mom last month and we were talking about lithuania. my mom told me that my grandmother's mother spoke lithuanian as her first language. so my grandmother was at least half lithuanian. but she couldn't speak lithuanian at all. her first husband (died either before or at the beginning of the war) was lithunian speaker too. here's the funny thing about my grandmother:
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma she was born in vilnius when vilnius was the capital of zeligowski's republic of central lithuania. her parents were lithuanian and polish speaking lithuanians and she was a POLISH PATRIOT. she loved pilsudski (who even had tea in my great grandfather's restaurant). she taught me polish patriotism but she never said a bad word about lithuanians. to my grandmother it was obvious that vilnius should be polish. that's how twisted the lithuanian history is.
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma she died almost a year ago but i haven't seen her since july 2001. i always thought that i will travel to poland and will take my grandmother to her beloved wilno. i always wanted to see the places she told me so much about when i was a child. oh well... it will never happen. her brothers (my mom's uncles) are deceased too. my all connections to vilnius are dead.
polishranger 2 months ago
@polishranger No, it‘s propoganda. Polish public use of their language is not criminalized. I don‘t understand why politicians don‘t want let them write polish street names or polish surnames in passports, but on the whole it‘s good to be a pole in Lithuania. All education of polish schools (except some lessons ) is in polish language. There are more polish schools in Lithuania than in any other country. And so on.
renygma 2 months ago
Now polish language is not popular in Lithuania. Except a few districts near Vilnius. My polish is zero. I don‘t know any my friend (lithuanian) who could speak polish. Such is real situation. Of course some older people (including president Grybauskaite, politicians like Landsbergis) can speak,
renygma 2 months ago
@polishranger In the past (40-50 years ago) it was different. For example my grandmother sometimes tells how she participated in wedding celebration near Kėdainiai (Nevėžis river, north from Kaunas) and was very angry that everybody aroud spoke only in polish. But now it‘s impossible to make polish as national language. For our nationalists it could be more horrible than to drink bear with Pilsudski and Zeligowski at the same table.
renygma 2 months ago
@polishranger I‘m sorry for your grandmother. May she rest in peace. Maybe somewhere in heavens God gave her eternal Wilno... and nobody will ever take it away from her.... I‘m sure someday you will visit Vilnius. I see you know about the city much more than common pole or lithuanian. So Vilnius is your town. It waits for you.
renygma 2 months ago
@renygma that's alright. my grandmother was just a few months shy of being 90. let us all live such a long life. vilnius is in my blood but i can't wait for the time when vilnius will become the city of brotherhood between poles and lithuanians.
polishranger 2 months ago
@renygma today this division of lithuanian nation still continues. polish speaking lithuanians are discriminated against only because they speak the language that was the official language of lithuania for centuries and the language so many lithuanian spoke at home.
polishranger 2 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND funny you should mention religion... it was lithuanian catholic church that destroyed polish language in pre war lithuania. it was the bishops and the priests that killed polish language in lauda area. now do you know why lithuanian pilsudski told another lithuanian zeligowski to take vilinus? do you know history at all?
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
Would you relinquish your claims to your property?Would you get it out of your memory just because some thief stole your property from you?Would you give up Lublin or Białystok if some foreign country occupied it from Poland?I wouldn't.Where will that constant stupidity and softness and lack of pursuing our national interests lead us?Other nations learned it long long ago that they just need to steal something from us and we'll gladly accept it and lick their boots.That's suicide
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND lublin and bialystok are polish historicly and demographicaly. those two cities have nothing to do with our discussion about vilnius. you say property... how is vilnius polish property? what is poland's claim to vilnius? you say stupidity and softness... how is common sense anti polish? when (apart from 1922-1939) has vilnius (wilno) ever been polish???
polishranger 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND
No Pole ever speaks the way you do therefore you must be a Samogotian pretending to be a Pole.'I am a Pole,therefore I have Polish duties' - Roman Dmowski.You don't follow the duties of a Pole so you must repent.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
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@polishranger 'are you a lithuanian provocateur trying to make us poles look silly?'
I think that it is you who is a Lithuanian provocateur PRETENDING TO BE A POLE BUT SPEAKING LIKE A LITHUANIAN.NO CONSCIOUS AND MORAL POLE SAYS WHAT YOU SAY.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND my family comes from vilnius. you peasants need to leave this matter to us, the city dwellers and us who originate from wilno. vilnius is a historical capitol of lithuania. for centuries people comming from vilnius(and the whole area) called themselves LITHUANIANS. it didn't matter what lanugage they spoke (majority of lithuania spoke polish you know?). pilsudski, zeligowski all those great men regarded themselves as lithuanian. now...
polishranger 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND now some lithuanians wanted to be still tied to poland, some wanted lithuania to be independent part of polish, lithuanian and belarussian federation and some lithuanians wanted to be totally independants. it was the stupid kaunas (kowno) lithuanians who started claiming that to be lithuanian you need to speak lithuanian at home. they started lithuananizing those lithuanians who spoke polish or were polish patriots.
polishranger 8 months ago
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@polishranger
'they started lithuananizing those lithuanians who spoke polish or were polish patriots'
Lithuanians who spoke Polish?Now you're manipulating.They WERE POLES,THEY DIDN'T JUST SPEAK POLISH BUT WERE POLES JUST AS I AM.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND now after 1918 lithuania had historic claim to vilnius and we had demographic claim to vilnius. only 3% of the city's population spoke lithuanian. majority wanted to be part of rzeczpospolita (the commonwealth). you can say that in 1922 wilno was ethnically polish. can you make this claim today??? what you're saying is against the interest of the polish nation.
polishranger 8 months ago
@polishranger
' majority wanted to be part of rzeczpospolita (the commonwealth)'
No.They wanted to join Poland - not Rzeczpospolita/the Commonwealth.That's big difference.Poland was and is a unitary country whereas the Commonwealth would mean that thy wanted to bo part of a federation between Poland and Lithuania and that was not the case.
PolskiNarodowiecND 8 months ago
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PolskiNarodowiecND 11 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Not Vilna because it didn't belong to Germany!Wilno-as it was *and is) Polish!
PolskiNarodowiecND 11 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND Have corrected the title of the video - now reads "Vilnius"
skoblinI 11 months ago 5
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PolskiNarodowiecND 11 months ago
@skoblinI Vilna is the Yiddish and the Russian name, Wilna is the German name for the old Lithuanian capital. But as it held a Polish ethnic majority after the 16th century, the name of Wilno is common too.
IustitiaPax 8 months ago
Fuck you guys...
MrGine77 7 months ago 2
@PolskiNarodowiecND Vilnius per amzius bus lietuvoje
chicagolugan 10 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND VILNIUS per amzius bus Lietuvoje
chicagolugan 10 months ago
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@PolskiNarodowiecND Gdansk jest niemiecki miasto! Na zawsze!
IustitiaPax 8 months ago
@PolskiNarodowiecND NO, it belongs to Lithuania and will belong forever to Lithuania!
LTRandomRetarded 5 months ago
@LTRandomRetarded
Vilnius residents spoke mostly in Polish by the end of World War II. Most Poles were expelled from Wilno.
Unfortunately, it's true.
___
Changing the name of the city Wilno in Vilnius, is the result of Stalin's gift.
After the invasion of Poland in 1939, Stalin gave occupied Wilno in Lithuania ... and Lithuania joined the Soviet Union.
tofer4rp 3 months ago
its strange how all polish population that lived in territories that not were polish, not suffered what the poles suffered during the world war, i say by the huge huge polish population in Vilnius.
breizhcatalonia1993 11 months ago
Byłem w Wilnie,nic ciekawego.Na ulicach pełno dziór a w koło walące się budynki.
Toż za czasów ZSRR lepiej miasto to wyglądało.
Inspektisto 1 year ago
Wilna l0l. its VIlnius :D
ImFromLithuania 1 year ago 9
Nice to see the loosers of WW II, a bunch of killers and scum.
jt123egypte 1 year ago
1897 Rusian census - 2.1% Lithuanians, 30.1% Poles
1916 German census - 2.6% Lithuanians, 50.2% Poles
1931 Polish census - 0.8% Lithuanians, 65.9% Poles
1942 German census - 24.37% Lithuanians, 41.89% Poles
Definetly... Vilnius was occupied by Poles
MaximusProteus 1 year ago
@MaximusProteus occupied? so what ?
1944kam21 1 year ago
Vilnius is Lithuania. Enough!
Lachausis 1 year ago
Kalvarija liberated from Soviet atheists. Wilna (Polish: Wilno, Lithuanian: Vilnius) had an ethnic Polish majority, the Pilsudski mausoleum, and a Jewish population, so only the small Lithuanian minority greeted the German invaders in 1941. The Polish govt. in exile of London in 1941 temporarily allied with the USSR. So Armia Krajowa in Wilno started to combat the German occupiers. But ended up: betrayed by Churchill and Roosevelt's communist lovers in 1945.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Historical events make Vilnius the backbone of Lithuania . Part of Lithuania has always been. And the people? People are no trees.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
Lithuania's language is lithuanian. We cant understand people talking polish or russian if we don't learn these languages. It doesn't matter what was 50 or 300 years ago. Important that we have our own individual language, individual culture! That means that we are Lithuanians and we belong to us. Before saying just heard things from somebody come visit and learn more and only then let your tongue move.
ashesyna 2 years ago
Kalvarija (Polish: Kalwaria) was also partly Polish inhabited.
The Vilnius Region in 1940 was transferred to (neutral) Republic of Lithuania by the Soviet Union. In 1923 it had united itself with Poland, as its Polish population wished to belong to Poland, not Lithuania. But historical borders are complicated. Like Meseritz was historically a Polish royal city, in 1919 it wanted to belong to Germany, not Poland. Polish nationalists only think entire Europe is Polish though. Sadly.
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
Vilnius (Polish: Wilno) was historically the capital of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which for centuries was in a Catholic monarchical union-state with the Kingdom of Poland (since 1386, esp. since 16th century). Demographically, until 1940/1946, majority of Vilnius was Polish-speaking. Even today, in the countryside, non-expelled Polish farmers form the majority. Historically, it is the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but ethnically it is clearly Polish this region. Both groups very Catholic though.
IustitiaPax 2 years ago
@IustitiaPax ethnically it is Lithuanian. and so called ,,polish,, here in Lithuania are speaking in some strange dialect, polish language mixed with russian and lithuanian. Usually uneducated but somehow snobish bastards they are. Vilnius ( not Vilno) is not ethnically polish, it is only infested by pseudopolish invaders and communist scum.
arimanaz 1 year ago
@arimanaz Dear, you should stop insulting the self-identifying Polish minority in eastern Lithuania. The Wilno-Vilnius Polish majority (75 % in 1919) was indeed partially Polonized Lithuanians, but they too in 1946 chose to emigrate to Polish-occupied Breslau and Kolberg and Danzig. Tutejsi is the name of the Polish-speaking former Ruthenians and former Lithuanians. But Polish nobles of west Lithuania now identify as Lithuanians. You were once ONE MONARCHY under GOD. Cherish history please!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@arimanaz Ethnogenesis is complex and national identity is too. 30 % of the Polish people are Polonized former Germans (like Maksymilian Kolbe was of German descent, or Józef Beck was of German-Flemish descent). In the end, it boils down to modern national identity and especially mothertongue or language of the family. I do not like extreme nationalism, I like patriotism. Extreme nationalism is too categorical. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was more tolerant, a great but a bit weak state.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - 30% Poles are polonised Germans? Where did you get this statistic from?
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella From the analysis of last names in Poland by the Jagiellonian University on German heritage in Poland. In Malopolska and southeastern Poland it is even far higher degree due to Walddeutsche (whose last names were polonized entirely too, as assimilation took place before censuses of the 18th century). Even in Lomza most were once Catholic ethnic German refugees from Lutheranized 1525 Prussia: like Ryszard Bender (Lublin prof).
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax In XVI, XVII century it was one of the strongest countries of the world. In XVIII century the Republic was in crisis so the 3 occupiers used this situation to steal the Commonwealth`s territories and independence. Prussia betrayed Poland in 1792 - this is also a very important fact. The Holy Roman Empire was in crisis in 1683, but unlike Prussia, Poland was loyal to her ally. Remember that.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you, Ritter. Entirely. The Polish monarchy and the Polish nobility were always loyal allies. Despite the chaotic organization and fractionalism inside the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Jan III Sobieski is one of my heroes!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
In democratic states there is always chaos. In Totalitarian states there is always "ordnung". German historiography since XVIII century is trying to justify the obvious crime: partitions of Poland. That`s why they say lies that the Polish nobility didn`t resisted against the occupation, that Poland was always a near anarchy land etc. But you must remember one thing: Prussia and Russia were "defending" the chaos in Rzeczpospoilta - that`s why they were blocking all reforms using even force.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@arimanaz - I guess you have the same problem as some Poles do witht the German past of their cities. Vilnius is today an ethnic Lithuanian city on ethnically Lithuanian land. Poles started settling there in Commonwealth times and polonisation of nobility took place first. But whom and why you call "bastards", "invaders" and "communist scum"?
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella it is because of my personal experience, my friend. these unplesent fealings are sad results of wat I see in old streets of my beloved sity. not because I am some demented nazi. It is becaus of these ,, polish" or ,,russian" , every day demanding new rights and taking no responsibility. They make our streets unsafe to walk at night.
1996-2003 Crime Rate in Lithuania by Nationality.
73 % Russian
20 % Lithuanian
7% Other
arimanaz 1 year ago
@arimanaz - fair enough, whatever your experential knowledge says... I cant dispute that. I just find it odd that you are lumping Poles together with commies and Russians... I find it even more bizzare since Lithuanian Poles, and I know a few, are nothing of the sort. You could hardly find more self-conscious, Catholic and anti-Bolshevik people.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Gattamella, we agree! On the Lithuania-based Poles of eastern Lithuania. And of Nowogródek. Very anti-Bolshevist Poles. And true Latin Catholics, despite partial Ruthenian ancestry in the high middle ages. (I love Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth history, a history also coined and shared by millions of Germans who lived in Wielkopolska and Royal Prussia).
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - yes. well those were a bit more sober times. not tainted by the easy nationalism and socialism for masses.
30%-90% of the inhabitants of certain Southern villages descend from Walddeutsche, thats well possible. Masovia however had very little German settlement apart from Vistulean towns. Lomza and Ostroleka districts had some Masurians from Protestant Prussia (Kurpie), thats ture, but those were primarily descended from Polish settlers from Culmerland and Dobrzyn land, afaik.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella You may be correct on the Kulmer Land assimilated Germans. IN fact, the Kulmer Land Poles and Germans all come from the same families. Germanization, Polonization, even at the same time, occurred. It depended on the local parish priests and the trade contacts. Lomza has a lot of German surnames indeed. That is all. Of course I know that Masovia is the most Polish of all districts, along with Podkarpackie (apart from Polonized Ukrainians). Polish ethnogenesis is complex. Like Swiss.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Exactly. Poland is only Mazovia. Every else regions, must become disjunct for every neighbours of Poland. Even Wielkopolska. Wielkopolska was Poland, but long ago. Klaus Kiński was Pole. Why? Identical criteria as in the matter of Copernicus.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Even in the hypothetical situation in which Vilna was in 100% living by Eskimos, do not forget that the always this city was most important a part of Lithuania and a most important place at heart of every Lithuanian. No region has the right to announce the secession, without the question of the rest of the country for the opinion. My emotional relation to this act is identical as in Gdańsk.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Why do you think nowadays Lithuania is the only successor of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania?
"No region has the right to announce the secession" - Lithuania should have remain part of the Commonwealth. Pre-war Wilno was 1 of 4 most important centers of Polish culture. Dansig before WWII was not a Polish city out of political perspective. It was inhibited mostly by Germans.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@AZsaturn "this city was most important a part of Lithuania and a most important place at heart of every Lithuanian" - It was the most important city not only for Lithuanians. But also for Belorussians and many Poles (like Józef Piłsudski). The only way to avoid conflict in this situation was to create "Intermarum" federation. But Lithuanians rejected this proposition.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1
Because I would be a hypocrite, if in the matter of Vilna and Gdańsk I used double standards. I use such themselves standards. But Gdańsk was not a capital city of Poland. So, the loss of this place was not so painful as hypothetical secession of the capital city. Vilna was always a capital city of Lithuania. The group of bigheads will not change this. I do not care a tinker′s cuss who there lived. I take caree who was a ruler of this city, always.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn "I take caree who was a ruler of this city, always." - the Polish Kings.
Grand Duchy of Lithuania until 1699 was a Ruthenian state and later it have become a sister state of the Polish Crown were dominated Polish culture and Polish identity.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
Internationally, Commonwealth was one subject. But in matter of internal, Constitution 3 May, liquidated separateness between Lithuania and Poland. The monarchs were Kings of Poland and Grand Dukes of Lithuania. Even today on Lithuania lives many Poles. Lithuanians who living in Vilna knows Polish language. They still are angry. They declare illegal bilingual boards and to Poles in identifical cards forbid to write Polish surnames. The miracle that legal few Polish schools. Angry generations.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn I definitely disagree that nowadays Lithuania is the only successor of the Grand Duchy. You should read an article in wikipedia called: "Litwini w znaczeniu historycznym"
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1
The anonymity in the internet is a myth. But generally the matter seizing, editors of Wikipedia are to the anonymous. In the true encyclopaedia, every article is verified by several onymous research workers before publish. You speak so, if the pause in the existence of Lithuania lasted so long as the time between the end of ancient Egypt and with the beginning of present Egypt.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 The ethnic nation-state is not a successor to ancient monarchies indeed. You are mostly correct. AZsaturn however claims and claimed royal Polish fortresses in Lebus (Germany) and justifies killing German-speaking Danzig children in 1946, with the Polish Kingdom's borders in 1466-1772. So he cannot do otherwise with Lithuania either. Of course Italy is not the successor to the Roman Empire either. Nor was artificial Czechoslovakia to Greater Moravia or kingdom of Bohemia.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax There are no nations that are guilty. There are always specific people who should be blamed. Nothing can justify the murder of innocent children. Although it`s also important to admit that the communist regime was elected not by the Polish society but by the U.S.S.R. They were mostly thugs with no sense of honor who reigned in Poland only because of the support of the "reds". And we can`t also blame Poles for the crimes committed by the Red Army - which would be an absurd.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1
Of course that nations are not guilty. I make no jeer. All crimes of national socialists it committed thousands of officers and non-commissioned officers. The rest, only they executed orders. Millions committed other crimes: The passiveness or the help to his own terrible rulers. Chosen democratically in completely honest elections.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Passiveness is indeed a great sin. When good people do nothing they aren`t good. But we must remember that not all people who were expelled could resist against the Nazi policy.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Well, the NSDAP only received 29.8 % of votes in Jan 1933 elections, in 1932 they gained 32.5 %. They were already loosing again. Hitler just mutineered and took over the ship of the Reich government in 1933 after his appointment to Reich Chancellor. The Germans never elected a Nazi dictatorship, but I agree that the Nazi government in fact after 1940 due to Allied anti-Germany destruction plans gained nearly total support (but their racial policy of antisemitism NEVER did!).
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 Wladyslaw Gomulka's ministry and policy was supported by a majority of the Polish people. The Poles selectively picked and chose what they liked from Polish national Communism. National Communism used nationalism and Slavic ideology too. The expelled Germans killed were not killed by the Soviet Army. I am talking about 1946, NOT about Feb 1945 or Nemmersdorf! At least the Polish bishops in 1965 asked for forgiveness... But the Polish public opinion continues hatred and denial!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Nobody denies that many Germans were murdered during the expulsions - we only want the truth about the real number of victims murdered by Poles.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 Oh yes, AZsaturn denied that the Germans were murdered during the Expulsions. You do not, thanks be to God. If you want truth, you cannot constantly keep denying that Polish soldiers and Polish authorities committed mass murders. This is all documented by Polish (anonymized) and German witnesses. Polish witnesses are still afraid: the perpetrators of the Expulsion genocide are still partially alive, and they may enact revenge.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
First give photos and evidences of onymous witnesses. Leastwise only evidences of onymous witnesses. Afterwards you can await from me repentances and implorations for the forgiveness. Every court in the world does not acknowledge evidences of anonymous witnesses. I negate to all not proved crimes. You promote your own tales, but I see that giving of proofs hurts to you. If you have witnesses, you should hurry up , to induce them to evidences. Because perhaps they are old people.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
You are sure that so very Poles fell in love the communism? You forgot about mutinies. Radom, Poznań, the Tricity...
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Poles were probably the most anti-communist nation in Europe. They even saved Europe from the communist disease in 1920.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The Polish population only fought against its own curtailing by the Communist government. But the Polish population in majority supported Gomulka's propaganda and Gomulka's policies. Still today, you repeat the propaganda he spread and you repeat the Instytut Zachodnich (Poznan) historical falsification you were taught in school. There was little mercy or charity towards killed Reich Germans and killed ethnic Germans. Poles gladly helped in deportations!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
"Poles gladly helped in deportations!"
Completely I do not assume why. Perhaps with the reason of 150 years of persecutions from hands of "master race"? Varsavians did not have where to live, so took this what them themselves to belong. Tell to me about disgusting thesis of the Western Institute. What are worse from archaeologists on services of Goebels?
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Nonsense, Gomułka had the support of people only at the beginning - because he was imprisoned by Stalin. But after a short time he lost the support of the nation.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 In the 1960s, Gomułka's anti-German rants were viewed by all Polish tv viewers and supported. You sent me an article on it yourself, man!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Read this article correctly - Poles viewed Gomułka`s tv speeches only because it was broadcasted before a famous TV show called "Cobra".
After war there existed anti-German sentiment in Poland and it really doesn`t surprise me.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax The communist propaganda in Poland treated FRG and GDR otherwise. GDR according to words of the propaganda, was lived by men which were an example of all virtues. Meanwhile in FRG, according to the propaganda, lived people prepared themselves to the development of the atomic war. Gomułka acquired fame from the talkativeness. But when spoke about Germans, the style and opinions were dependent from this whether lived in FRG or GDR. This is FACT.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn That is because the GDR (DDR) was built on a system of ideological lies and denial of the Historical German east also. The GDR never prepared for atomic war, although Adenauer wanted some West German missiles too, but the western Allies never trusted any German military. Today again, entire Germany is demonized as "revanchist" by Polish colonists and the Polish colonial regime in Warsaw and Breslau.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I spoke about the difference in which manner the communist propaganda spoke about FRG and GDR. I did not speak that something like this I acknowledged. In Poland not exist persona publicas which official demonize Germany.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
The borders of XX-century's countries should be based on an intelligent compromise between the historical and ethnic territories. When the villages around Munich would be inhibited mostly by Czechs it wouldn`t make out of t one of three most important centers of German culture - Czech territory. I understand why Lithuanians and Belorussians wanted Vilnius. It was impossible to establish a justice borders of central European countries after WW I - that`s why intermarum was a brilliant idea.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 If you make this compromise, then Poland will have to cede the ancient German territories to Germany directly in 2011. There were never Czech villages around Munich. In fact, Prague was until 1866 a German majority city in Czech-majority Bohemian centre lands. You could compare the Protectorate of Bohemia and MOravia with the Republic of Central Lithuania, rather than vice-versa. But the German acts are condemned, and Polish acts are glorified by AZsaturn.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I think that now the borders shouldn`t be changed because it would only mean another war.
"You could compare the Protectorate of Bohemia.." - nonsense my friend the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was an ethnic Czech territory. Central Lithuania wasn`t even mixed Polish-Lithuanian territory but ethnically Polish mostly land.
You could compare the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia with the Lithuanian occupation of the Vilnius region in 1918.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
Poland never occupied Ethnic Lithuania. I wouldn`t condemn the German annexation of Dansig in 1939 because it wasn`t mixed Polish-German city - but ethnically German territory. But I definitely condemn the occupation of half of the pre-war Polish territory in 1939.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 AZsaturn lives in Danzig, and he believes that royal Polish history of Danzig justifies the Polish war cause of 1939. If Danzig had been ceded to Germany, no war would have occurred. But Poland thought it could "defeat Germany within three weeks" with France invading from the west and Britain through Holland and Lower Saxony. Of course I agree with you on the Wartheland: Wielkopolska is original Polish land. Although parts were ethnic German like Vilnius Region was ethnic PL.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
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@IustitiaPax "If Danzig had been ceded to Germany, no war would have occurred." - read "main kampf".
There are witnesses who heard that Hitler said "It`s not a war about Dansig"
Germans didn`t wanted only Sudetenland because one year after the annexation of Sudetenland they invaded the rest of the country. And so they didn`t wanted only to annex Dansig but much more Polish territory to create "Lebensraum".
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago 2
@IustitiaPax
Prussia and Reich were an uncontrollable glutton. Before September Campania, Reich gained new grounds without shot. Too terrifying these which should oppose. Somebody, at last, had to oppose, because this glutton would gain increasingly and would laugh aller. Because indeed this was plaintive. Polish authority over the Free City was pure symbolical. Ached very much us the lack of the return of this Cracow of the North. But so disgraceful the renewed loss, would be inadmissible.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax In the second Polish Republic there were no ancient German territories included.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
"The ethnic nation-state is not a successor to ancient monarchies indeed." So, Republic of France is not successor of Kingdom of France. Why "ancient monarchies"? What is this? You should know that the antiquity ended in the day of the fall Western Roman Empire? Then existed no present state. 146 years then not so long time.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn In my opinion there exist no ethnic national-states. Nowadays European countries like France and Germany can`t be recognized as national states. Because of the high percentage of national minorities . Sooner than later Turks and other Muslims will become the majority of population in some German regions. According to Wilson and IustitiaPax fantasies that will give them the right create Central European Turkey Republic on the German territory.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 Immigrant minorities change nothing about the 1900s status of a state. Of course France had another development history. I am speaking about Wilsonian concepts for Eastern and Central Europe. The Muslims will never dominate Germany; the reaction is already showing up. But catastrophes will follow. Civil wars in larger cities. But you Poles should fear that your NATO and pro-American missiles will provoke Russian anger soon!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
All people worldwide, once were immigrants. When passed generations, became natives. What are worse present immigrants? Will pass several generations, will be local people. Perhaps nowadays, each times presidents of the Uncle Sam are almost lords of our planet. But you speak about Wilson. Lord only in his part of the world.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax not missiles but anti-missiles!
When we would be attack by Russia you would justify the aggression.
Muslim women have much more children than German women. So even if the immigration would be stooped it wouldn't change nothing.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 The NATO and US missiles to be stationed in eastern and northern Poland are a clear violation of the military balance as far as Russian-administered northern East Prussia (Kaliningradskaya Oblast) is concerned. I am not per se anti-NATO, but I hate military provocations in Europe and elsewhere. The Russian Federation is worried, and we should not provoke the Russian Bear. I would not take sides for Russia ever though. I am a West European. But I hate "mourir pour Pologne".
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax This anti-missiles are not able to attack but only to defend us against missiles. We have the right to defend ourselves even if you think something else.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 Do you believe this yourself? Missiles can be launched to any target in Russia. Also, I do not question Polish defence mechanisms, but I condemn atomic re-armament. Poland without questioning allowed CIA torture centres in Masuria etc. It is the slave-like following of Anglo-American strategy, like 1939. You will be sacrificed again, do not have any illusions.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
If really terrorists were imprisoned in compactly secret Polish prisons, the then this information would be secret for many years. You think that Polish special services are talkative? For you, the reliability of the gossip, is dependent from this, against whom works this gossip.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 I hate to be obliged as a Dutch soldier to die for Poland or Polish anti-Russian interests. Now, the relations seem fine, but the Apr 2010 staged Kaczynski Smolensk-Katyn air crash will burden Polish-Russian relations. Especially once PiS comes to power again, or when Komorowski's corruption on gas pipelines is exposed. I do not want Poland to make the same mistake it made in 1939 again. Because I love the Polish people in fact, even if you may not believe me! War is hell.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
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@IustitiaPax "I do not want Poland to make the same mistake it made in 1939 again." - yes terrible mistake we did we were simply trying to defend our freedom from German and Russian imperialism.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 I mean the Polish threats against Germany from April 1939 until Aug 31, 1939. The alliance and pacts with England and France. The Soviet internationalism was not "Russian imperialism". Stalin was no tsar, and the USSR was not the Russian Empire. This is what I mean by Russophobia and paranoia of Poland even today in 2010.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Because Józef Beck said "peace is very valuable but we in Poland doesn`t know the word: peace at any cost" - His policy to resist against Russian and German imperialism was correctly. If the UK and France would have done the same there would be no 2`nd World War.
The USSR was a new form of the Russian Empire. Do you know what Stalin said to his Mother when he saw her for the last time: (if I remember correctly it was in 1937) "I`m something like a new Tsar".
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago