Breaking news about 'Jesus Discovery': Jerusalem Archeology Reveals Birth Of Christianity
This again proves with the bible what the Book of Mormon cannot do which is that archeology supports the bible, but no such fact can be proven with acheology for the Book of Mormon to support it's outrageous claims about civilizations with milions of people who don't generate one single artifact of evidence.
Got to huffington post & search for Jesus Discovery to see archeological evidence
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
God is the judge of all men but He instructs us to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" ... Joel. Maybe you should study a subject before opening your mouth about it.
If Joel was miss universe do you think his greatest hope would be for "world peace"? Or would he want joseph smith to carry him away on golden plates to planet Kolab where they could unite in a bond of unbridled idolatry? There he could also hook up with mitt & discuss their non-separation of "established" state/church back on earth for all earthlings left behind. Oh what a grande utopian view for these interplanetary leaders who could be for ever supported by planet earth's tax/tithe slaves.
You will all become Mormons after death, when you will be baptized by proxy into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mitt is simply fulfilling prophet Joseph Smith's directive to make the Mormon Church the central and foremost Christian denomination in America. It WILL happen.
The Republican leadership has decided that a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Ltter Day Saints will be our next President. This will give LDS a much needed boost toward our goal of complete acceptance as the one true Christian Church in the world. It was foretold by our Prophet, Joseph Smith, that one of our elders would one day rule this nation, and your vote shall make it happen. Vote for Mitt Romney, Mormon.
@MRobert2l That's a fairly good prophecy. Kind of like the Civil War prophecy which was already rumbling around at his time. But credit should be due for it just the same. Do you know where i can find a book of correct prophecies by JS? All I can seem to find is a book of failed prophecies. I'd settle for pamphlet of prophecies or even a napkin if maybe he got a download from God when he was waiting for Martin Harris for morning coffee before they went to burn down the newspaper building.
116. And (remember) when God will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides God?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.(Al:ma'idah) holy Quran
Your ref. to Col. 1:16 in answer to the relationship between Christ & Satan I'll mull over. Was just viewing Isa. 14:12 - 15 Lucifer, morning star, wanting to be above God.
@lynnmwollet Yes, interesting that Lucifer had pride. That means that angels can reason. God allows freedom for his angels even in Heaven. But tho he (Lucifer) wanted that, and apparently other angels wanted that as well, doesn't mean they are greater because they are created by God. But it should serve as value to you to know that Satan is known as the prince of the power of the air and that he also referred to as the god of this world.
@lynnwollet The prior point is important because the bible uses language both literal and symbolic and when translated to English meaning can be lost. Mormons largely ignore Hebrew & Greek which can lead to misinterpretations. For exmp, take the word 'love' which in Greek has 4 different meanings. Suppose Jesus used "love" talking to a woman. Mormons might assume a eros or erotic love but depending on the Greek word used he might have meant brotherly, family or a Godly love.
@lynnwottel Now, considering the bible's original languages, Satan is called a prince, a god, a son, an angel and then of course has different names. LDS doctrine latches onto the 'son' moniker, which it does w/ Jesus as well tho we saw him act like God, do the miraculous like God and admitted he was God, and others called him God. But some in the LDS don't care & in some places it says he's "the son" and dammit, tho another verse might shed more light on his nature, that's what he's going to be
@lynnwollet What the above amounts to, Lynn is a bit like trying to drive a car by looking thru a straw. I can only see so much & the context of other things around me is just as important. The same is true for the word of God. The LDS look thru straws in reading the word. First they only read English and Old English at that. Remember the 4 words for love? That exists w/ most words, which is why context is so important and meaning is found by examining ALL of scripture to see what it says.
@lynnwollet The LDS act like u should pretend those other verses aren't there. They say Jesus is the son. So I point out he's called God & Father over here. What's the LDS response? They point to a verse that calls him the Son again. Pointing the "Son" will not change the verses that also call him Father, Prince, Word & God. In other words, if we don't take out eye away from the straw of our conclusions, our concept of God's nature will be wrong no matter how sincerely we seek him. *END*
I think Mormonism is hooey--sick hooey---but since its inception its existence has challenged American courts and the Constitution. "It's hooey and dangerous crap" said legislators 150 yrs ago, "But there are just too freaking many of them. Plus, it's uncool to diddle in religious belief. Plus, they're willing to defend a salt flat from the Indians. Plus, they keep SAYING they're cool. Hopefully they'll get around to treating women as humans....and stop ambushing pioneers...hopefully".
@marginallymental The mormon pioneers who lived in Salt Lake encouraged their women to get educations, they started hospitals, and were involved in the women's sufferage.
@lynnmwollet Lynn, if there's one thing Mormonism isn't, it's not a religion for women's rights. It is in fact a very chauvinistic faith. Polygamy is the highlight and it's downhill from there. I don't recommend you trying to make this point as the veil for it is as thin as it gets. The only thing lower than women are people of color. The next thing I know, you'll be saying the Mormons are champions of racial equality.
@krametorg I mentioned a few points of equality of the ones who call themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints. Polygamy was unanimously voted to an end by the leaders in 1890 and there were actually few comparably that had more than one wife. A story that doesn't have enough space. There are churches (groups) that are called Mormons whose practices aren't supported by TCofJCofLDS ever since the day
@lynnmwollet The US gov. and men in those days (1800's) looked on women as property. The problem of women voting came about because the Latter Day Saint women had political views & voted. Gov. didn't want that. Polygamy came about because the widows weren't allowed to own property & if they were married they could (just 1 reason). In Joseph Smith's day he encouraged the women to start a Relief Society, because they had talents in compassion that men didn't. They were 2 b helpmate.
@lynnmwollet I met a gentleman who was from the mid-south tell me after we talked Bible at each other for awhile, that our discussion would be looked down upon from his area.Men were to discuss the Bible and if women had any questions or opinions, they were to wait until they got home.
@lynnmwollet the Mormons gave it up to attain statehood and nothing more. Many Latter-day Saints viewed the abandonment of polygamy as religious treason. Almost immediately splinter groups were formed to carry on the "everlasting covenant" of celestial marriage that LDS abandoned. The RLDS insist they are the real Mormons because they still practice what leads to the Everlasting Covenant in heaven. Much is made of Christianity's denominations, but that's small potatoes compared to this split
@krametorg You are going to have a lot to answer for once president Mitt Romney is in office. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not to be trifled with. So be advised.
Because so much of Mormonism was secret (temple practices, the "secret name" for instance, that only came to light recently when apostates spoke of them), people remain wary. But for me, it's the church's mutability that's terrifying. The greater society doesn't like polygamy? Great! To get statehood they dump it despite their passionate belief in it. Civil Rights era? Great! But it was only recently mormons believed blacks were even human. They'll say anything...and that's dangerous.
A Christian definition is some one who professes to follow Christ and his teachings. A cult definition is a system of beliefs and worship. In reality all religions are a cult. Mormons profess to worship Christ, have Christ in the name of their Church, observe the atonement every Sunday, study Christ's teachings, are encouraged to live a life like Christ taught. How Christian or Christ-like can you be? Mormons are Christians and a cult even if Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, & on don't want it.
@lynnmwollet I've said this before and I'll ask this again since NOT ONE Mormon has had the heuvos to answer the question. If I call myself a Mormon but deny all the major tenants of the faith...if I reject the articles of faith, would you agree I would be rejected by Mormon faith as a devout member of the LDS?
@krametorg truth is no mormon with answer you directly. I have mormon friends who can't answer to the major tenants of the faith.. they just can't. they can't defent a lot of that hatred preached by their founder or any of hate content in their doctrines. Mormons haven't even been around as long as christians and I feel a lot of the stuff they preach is just made up.
@Soulfide Yep, we know this by experience, don't we? They don't answer because they know it leads to the follow up which is, they WHY would you ever say you can be a Christian while doing exactly the same thing. (c;
I didn't view Osteen's retraction, is it on youtube? Osteen (paraphasing) said he didn't know enough about Mormons to call Romney a liar. I don't think a retraction was inorder just because a reporter pushed him to say yes or no.
@Sk8er408 Where's your authority in Christ? I don't care where the term "Christian" came from. It's like arguing about letting kids trick or treat on Halloween because it's a satanic holiday. I'm no victim. I'm not giving that day to Satan. I'm taking it back. I have authority in Christ over him and it's my territory and I'm not giving it to him. The same goes for "Christian," a universally accepted term, that fairly represents the body of Christ without demeaning us - that's my territory now!
@Sk8er408 What faith you ask? Jude answers that Q.
According to Jude "Certain Men have secretly slipped in among you. They are GODLESS men who CHANGE THE GRACE OF OUR GOD. In this case Jude explains they acted like Grace gave them a license to sin because they knew "Grace covers a multitude of sin."
In the same way, Mormons in 2 Nephi changed grace too, which reads "You are saved by grace, after all you can do." Just as it was a bondage to sin w/ them, it's a bondage to works for Mormons now
Nephi a man living before Christ living the Law still new that no matter what he did to follow the Law he would fail yet still was saved by Grace. Read more then the one verse you take out of context to fit your argument.
Be we can look at what Jesus said about salvation in John 15:12-14.
We are all under the yoke of Christ. You just deny it... so you deny grace too.
@Sk8er408 For 20 years that I have witness to Mormons I have never known 1 who ever backed away from the meaning of Grace as prescribed by the BoM. Not members, bishops or Stake Presidents. Are u SURE this is your final answer?
BTW -remember all those verses about Jesus being the "Son" u pointed me to? Show me where you vigorously pursued context in the bible where Jesus was called Father, God, the Word or where you examined the Greek or Hebrew. You're a hypocrite. U work for FairLDS don't u?
Even LDS are prone to know knowing everything... even misunderstanding things in their own gospel. Just because they misunderstand it does not mean that is the truth of it.
Your context of 2 Nephis grace after all we have done is so far off. The context is 400BC when they were living the Law before Christ was born. Tell me how he can deny grace when it was not yet available?
Quakers and the moon was not a prophesy. It was mocking people like you and it was BY not JS. If you did more then read commentary you might understand that. BY in context said the wicked will never listen to the prophet and mock him. Way to prove him right.
Men are gods (or at least by biblical standards those that receive the word of G-d are John10:35). Don’t you believe Jesus (an exalted man) is in fact G-d? But this is not accurate to the context of your claim. It is not so much as G-d is an exalted man but that we have the potential to become like him.
Joel Osteen is not a Christian, he is a Protestant. Mormons are also Protestants, so therefore, Mormons are not Christians either. The only Christians are those people who belong to the Orthodox Christian Church, also known as the Eastern Orthodox Church.
@magnus56j Where can I find that in the bible? "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
In this case you use the term "Protestant" to mean anyone who is not part of the Orthodox church, but the term itself is a kind of jingoistic falsehood. I am a Christian: Not subject to Joel Osteen, nor a Roman or Eastern patriarchy. The defining feature of my faith is not "protest" but proclamation: Of the truth of the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Those who you call Protestants are not, as you imagine, mere rebels existing in reaction to your orthodoxy. We pursue God's truth sincerely.
krametorg. Remember, GOD himself chose the Jews to be his people and he their GOD. He's very tribal in that aspect. He wants us to praise and worship him, it's an obligation. That's why religion is important ... even Jesus Christ set up his own ministry, that right there should tell you how important it is to chose your religion. It's not up to you.
@fljrox in Acts chapter 2 all the believers had was the presence of God. For decades we have camped around the sermon. Israel camped around the presence. When churches are more interested in building the kingdom more than they are interested in building the attendance rolls, come talk to me. Where is the power of Acts being demonstrated in the church today? It is a shell of its former self -it's a Rotary with tongues. The world has had it up to here w/ religion. They want an encounter w/ God.
krametorg. When I was soul searching, I ran into a couple of LDS mission workers that almost had me convinced to join their church, they ask me to pray about it to the Holy Spirit, well I did! And I was shown all these evil images of the LDS, that told me to search elsewhere. I did search, I learned to pray, I turned from sin, and found the Holy Bible. Yes, it was LDS that started my journey, but, I am home in the Catholic Church where it is my obligation to attend Mass and learn and teach.
@fljrox God is a gentleman. He is not a God of guilt and shame so he put no such obligation on you, so who did? That sounds like the Mormons where it's works, obligation, loyalty, duty...do do do. Meanwhile God is just looking for someone to take him by the hand and walk by spirit and not with our mind, our will or emotions, in other words, our souls, he wants us in the spirit. This is why he wants us to worship him in spirit. Jn 4:24. He's looking for a man after his own heart not more religion
@fljrox I have heard of a few others having that happen where the answer was to worship else where. If you prayed with a sincere heart then go with it. Just keep studying your scriptures and praying. I believe He will guide your steps. Peace be with you.
@lynnmwollet. Your right, but, we're to love one another as ourselves, so therefore, I love you and don't want to see you make grave mistakes in the name of being a fanatic for LDS. It's not supposed to be us against them, we're all GOD's children. It's satan against us, and he has told and spread lies. It's your job to recognize the voice of your shepherd when he is clearly calling you back, calling you out! I promise you Jesus Christ did not lie to those eleven apostles.
@lynnmwollet. If the Catholic Church is apostate like your church professes, then you cannot quote the Holy Bible, it came from the Catholic Church. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit, right? If the Church is damned then everything it produced is damnable, so, there's your conundrum. You either have to admit the Catholic Church is infalible, as Jesus Christ promised it would be or LDS must reject the Holy Bible and it's teachings. You can't serve two masters.
@fljrox The serving 2 masters has nothing to do with the Bible, it is who you serve (worship).The LDS church agrees with Osteen and leave the judging to God.
@fljrox How did this become about Catholic vs. Mormonism. God is not interested in building denominations, he's interested in a relationship with us personally. Frankly, he doesn't give a rip where you go to church. That's unimportant! What he wants is for you to grow up, learn to hear his voice, to walk by the spirit and stop walking out of your soul. He wants relationship, not more religion. Dare I say today that Churches are part of the problem because it is ruled by a religious spirit.
@krametorg I don't know exactly y, but I use to be a little offended if some one asked "what are you?" I would answer a Christian. Them: "no, what church?" I'm a Christian, but I attend XX Church." Religion doesn't save any one. (Agree with your above comment.)
I know I didn't say it previously, but good for Joel for standing up and saying he isn't to judge. Joel is a preacher of the word of God and that is all that is needed. Do you have proof that Paul went to Greece to lamb baise them or did he go to preach the word of God? Yes, your video was abrasive and you aren't going to win over Mormons with it. You might drive people to them.
@lynnmwollet right after this soundbite went viral, Joel Osteen retracted his statement because of the firestorm of outrage from Christian's who said he betrayed the faith. Just like it would news if a Mormon prophet departed from Mormon tenants. You can understand that, right? 2. What is it about Mormon doctrine you find abrasive? All I did was put up quotes of doctrines taught by Mormon leaders. Have you told your bishopic you find it abrasive when he teaches same? I passed no judgments.
@krametorg I showed it to a few Mormons and they never heard of those beliefs. It is insulting if the statements aren't true. --- I understand what you are trying to do. I don't agree with your method. Preaching the Gospel should be enough. Didn't Paul say in one of his letters - as long as the Gospel is preached that is all the matters. You probably know where that is --- right?
@krametorg Again -- thanks for the refs. It sounds like the sun in that chapter of Abr. God made the heavens , so....? What is JOD abr.? I heard people from other faiths say Jesus & Lucifer were sons of God, so it isn't a Mormon thing. I'm not horrified. There is always some one that digs deeper then the average person. I had a friend that dug into the end times.
@lynnmwollet Glad to hear you dig deep. I will hold you to that. JOD = Journal of Discourse. Concerning Jesus, how can he be a son of God if he was the creator of ALL things, visible and invisible, powers, rulers and authorities. That includes Satan, a mere angel, who is invisible. So based on Col. 1:16, Satan and Jesus could never be brothers because Jesus created Satan.
QUESTION #5 FOR MORMONS: Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon "the keystone of our religion." In light of that, where in the BoM does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and the was not always God?
@krametorg My guess would be, b4 the fall, in Genesis it says He walked among the Garden with Adam and Eve or maybe that just means He has a physical body. Either way that does not mean God wasn't always God.
@lynnmwollet not sure what you're referring to but it so happens that Paul was referred to before his time, (Paul said, "Death where is thy sting") which also appears in the BOM written 1000 years before his time if you believe Mormon doctrine. Second, my first question was why isn't the fact that God was once a man and that he is flesh and blood in the Book of Mormon? Neither appears but a misplaced quote from Paul and Shakespeare do, why?
Bubba... i though we already went over this... the first one... trying to imply that LDS believe G-d lives on a planet called kolob? This is pure fiction on your part.
@Sk8er408 ATTENTION EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD. SKIPPY WANTS YOU TO KNOW THAT I MADE A MISTAKE IN THE VIDEO AND THINKS I'M NOT HONEST. SO, TO MAKE IT ALL RIGHT, HE WANTS ME TO ADMIT TO YOU THAT GOD LIVES ON THE PLANET NEXT TO KOLOB, NOT ON KOLOB ITSELF. AND HE WANTS YOU TO KNOW THAT I SPELLED KOLOB WITH AN 'A' IN THE VIDEO. I THINK THIS WILL MAKE HIM FEEL BETTER SO YOU WILL KNOW HOW SILLY IT WAS FOR ME TO SAY GOD LIVES ON KOLOB. NOW IT'S MUCH MORE BELIEVABLE. DON'T YOU AGREE? There you go Skip!
Real mature. skipbo. Capslock? And tell me where it says he lives on any planet or next to kolob? We have been over this before. This was a vision that Abraham had. Like a parable being taught. There is more meaning to it then what you see and you imply what is not there. You guys try to mock JS but when you read what he has put out it is strikingly authentic to Hebrew thinking and tradition.
@Sk8er408 actually it's not even close, the evidence of which is 2 centuries of debate on the validity Mormonism that never happened to anyone other LDS or JWs. But at a high level, there are enormous problems with the BoM/JS claims concerning cultures, metallurgy, crops, geography, script, races, witnesses, style/inconsistencies, prophecies, JS's background, KJV influences, 19th Cent influences, core doctrines missing from BoM, treasure hunting/magic, conflicts of the 1st vision. Enough?
@Sk8er408 I know, like I was saying above, so much is fiction. But hey, until you show me one archaeological artifacts from those civilizations that lived here in No. America, the BoM is fiction too. So it fits nicely with that. I know, you're thinking "Drat!"
You want archaeological artifacts? Take a vacation to Southern Mexico... the artifacts they have are amazing. or you can go visit that rock in N.Mexico...
Be honest in your posts. Your video is pure propaganda skipbo. It is all accusations with no facts to back it up. This is propaganda if you did not know it. How many times do i have to point out the lies in this video until you stop denying that A. i've pointed them out and B. you admit they are just lies?
@Sk8er408 I feel like I'm arguing politics with a liberal when i talk to you. I didn't just conjure up those things in the video, every one of them comes from LDS sources whether you want to admit that or not. I know 2 centuries later it's a bummer to have to be the one to defend those ridiculous prophecies because your 'prophets' never imagined TV, Satellites, Rocket ships, but here we are. Dance dance dance, Skippy. BTW, can you point me to the book of correct prophecies by JS?
I know you did not conjure them up. You just regurgitated them from a book you read that told the lie. But you are not good and reproducing the lies and miss on some. But your intent is still to lie and deceive people about the LDS church.
Show me the source on kolob then? Context. You have none at all and it shows.
I think you need to look at the bible an it's prophesies first. Your double standard is in full force.
Ironically & what is soooo freaking funny is that the most ardently defended doctrines that Mormons are chained to like a rotting dead body cannot be found in the BoM. God once a man? Not there! God has flesh/bone? Not there. Men become gods? Not there! More than 1 God? Not there!
QUESTION #4 FOR MORMONS: What does it mean to take Jesus as your Lord and Savior if he cannot forgive your sins? ("The world should know that since the Lord himself cannot forgive sins..." Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer Kimball. p. 167).
@krametorg Quote it correct " the Lord himself cannot save men 'in' their sins" It goes on about how repentance is neccesary and sacrament doesn't take away sins.
@lynnmwollet That seems like a semantic argument to me. The Lord cannot save men 'in' their sins means the same thing...his power is limited. If it's a true statement then that Jesus cannot save men from sin, or even certain sins, then the result is the same - and as such it begs the question how can Jesus be your savior if he cannot save everyone from their sin? What's he the savior of?
@krametorg Reading the few paragraphs from the book. The point is that we need to repent not think that taking communion (sacrament) would do the trick. I would - if I could - ask him what he meant by that statement. I can only go by what is said around it. I've heard others say if you die in your sins, you're lost.
QUESTION #3 FOR MORMONS: A rare grammatical error in an old version of the King James bible was discovered in Isa. 6:2, adding an 's' (plural) to the end of word 'seraphim'. This was changed in 20th century versions of the KJV to correct the Hebrew. How do you explain that this error is passed on to 2 Nephi 16:2 if the bible was not plagiarized by Joseph Smith. Would God not correct the error that others made in the Bible if it came directly from him as JS claims?
QUESTION #2 FOR MORMONS: Have you ever read the bible from cover to cover, and prayed to God and asked him to reveal to you that it contains all of God's message to man and that no parts were lost or altered, and if the Book of Mormon is false?
@krametorg I think God made it possible for the basic scriptures to be passed on to us, but you do realize that the Bible prior to 1921 had more books in it and in Constanteins day there were believed to be over 700 letters (books).
@lynnmwollet Lynn, that is absolutely false. What's your source? Yes, the canon as we know it did not exist before 400 BC but the one we have has existed since that time and that only refers to the New Testament. OT works predate the NT by 1000s of years. There are 1000s of fragments and books, complete and not complete of the bible. It is the most circulated literary work in history, but that doesn't mean all were ever considered for inclusion. The apocrypha is one such example.
After the 40days in the desert, Jesus Christ went out of his way to find 12 that would be his Apostels! But, in the mormon church, it is alleged he settled for one dude. Jesus Christ promised the 12 that satan would not prevail against his Church which includes Heaven and Earth, so, apostacy never happened. If the Church was apostate when you say it was, then the Holy Bible is an apostacy and you must reject it because only bad fruit can come from a bad tree. The mormon church is suspect.
@fljrox Agreed. Add to that 2 promises from God where Jesus says I am the good shepherd and my sheep know my voice and that I will never leave them and also "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Apostasy doctrines fly in the face of many things in the word.
Based on smiley Joel's answers, if I were him, I'd search my soul to make sure I was a true Christian. Mr. Romney's okay because Jesus is his saviour? Yeah well he's my saviour too but my Jesus is the one of the Bible not the one the Mormon "church" created to suit their agenda. Someone should tell Mr. Osteen that the Bible (Mat 24) warns of many false Christs.
@lynnmwollet That doesn't actually make him a prophet. It makes him more of a teacher. What makes him a prophet is his correct prophecies. For instance, he foretold his own death. He prophesied over Peter that he would deny him before the cock crowed three times. He also communicated the heart of God for his children and spoke life and hope to them in a dark world. That among other things is what made him a prophet of God.
@Sk8er408 What propaganda Skip? It's as much about the typical lame Christian response to Mormonism as it is about Mormonism itself. You still have not, in aaaaaaaaaall this time be able to dispute one thing about the video's claims concerning Mormon doctrines. You can argue with your panty-waste claims that the words don't mean what they say, but I provide citations to every heretical claim by the LDS, or I do not make them.
Well, from my understanding, Mormons study the Bible AND the Book of Mormon. There is a scripture in the bible that says to keep the bible pure and study only the bible. The Mormons also technically classify as a cult. God has always been the supreme being and none of us are worthy enough to be gods. And no, Jesus was not a prophet. He was the Messiah and died for our sins.
his "work" has charlatan written all over it. this is no prophet. this is a con artist. and obviously there are enough braindead people to fall for this nonsense.
@Meskiagkasher If you have anything constructive to contribute to the dialog, welcome! But if you are here to degrade people that you disagree with, then I would prefer you go someplace else. As the forum moderator, I do request people show respect and not use personal attacks. Thanks
@Meskiagkasher I reject that because it isn't the heart of God. It is common courtesy to dialog with people. Jesus didn't rebuke the women at the well whom he knew was walking in sin. He didn't say, "Respect must be earned, you piece of crap!" Again, my board, my rules. Dialog is welcome. Debate is encouraged. But insults are not God and if you can't accept that, go to other boards where people don't care about God's hearrt. Why would anyone come to him who greets the prodigal with a club.
@krametorg oh cut the crap. why don't you just grow out of your infantile beliefs in supernatural things and deities? you managed that with the easter bunny and santa claus. so why can't you get over similarly pointless concepts such as god or even jesus?
everybody with the slightest grasp of history knows that the biblical deity is a fabrication and amalgam of prior cults and simply stuff made-up when the torah/tanakh and new testament were written. so why don't you?
@Meskiagkasher ah, so the bottom feeders return. What are you trying to prove? Nevermind, I already know.. As I told others, I suppose the reason why you have to go out seeking boards like this is because no one wants to listen to your fade-to-black message. All I know is that videos like this seem to attract atheists like flies. Given that you only want to insult people or show how superiorally arrogant you are, I'm choosing to stay on topic w what the board is about since u cannot. G'bye
@krametorg have you no interest in what is true over what makes you feel good?
how dare you postulate a deity without demonstrating its existence? I be you cannot even justify *why* you believe. you just think what you are told to think. that's the opposite of education and enlightenment.
you and your kind throw humanity back into the intellectual dark ages.
#1 Angels are beings either resurrected or not. Calling them a god implies the same thing but with an emphasis on one that has accepted the gospel and is saved.
#2 They do… their seminariy has a 4 year cycle. OT, NT, BoM, D&C/PoGP/HC
#3 What is your understanding of 2 Nephi 12:16? Or the JST of Revelation 12:1–4? These have always struck me as very odd indeed.
#4 This is actually the best propaganda point I’ve seen in awhile. Jesus does not forgive our sins, He paid the price for them, all we must do is look to him for that grace he gives. If he merely forgave them why did he have to suffer for them? The Law is still very much enforced. That is why we still sin (no Law no sin). A+ on misuse of context. But I don’t expect much of an understanding about books of this caliber to make any sense to you.
#5 1st Elohiem is G-d in the Bible not sure why people think Elohiem is an exclusive LDS thing? We can approach this 2 different ways U believe in the trinity & the trinity teaches that Jesus is G-d & Jesus was a mortal man on earth. The other way is that LDS dont believe that G-d was ever a mortal man like us nor was G-d ever not G-d This comes from a confusing on the principal of Eternal Progression. Especially when you lump in quotes that do not pertain to each other
Every church wants to bring people to Christ, but just about every church points at the other saying - that one is wrong. So many people are leaving churches or not wanting anything to do with God or Christ because of this. If we go about preaching the love of God instead of browbeating & scolding others about what they believe, I think we would win more souls. Who wants come to Christ or join a church under those conditions.
@lynnmwollet Lynn, you act like these differences are minor. They are not. For example, if I went around calling my Church an LDS church but rejected the 17 articles of faith, would you stay silent to a fellow Mormon who indicated to you his intentions to join my church or would you say something?
@krametorg I didn't say we need to stay silent, but there is a difference between talking to some one & ripping them apart or guilting them into something. I'm not speaking just LDS. Other churches also. For ex: The youth at a church we attended were still inviting him to events after he moved to a church near our house. He stopped going to events 'cause he was getting static from a few of the adults & lastly the pastor got snippy 'cause he wasn't coming to morning service.
@lynnmwollet Lynn, let me start with the fact that pastors and adults getting snippy is not good. Some pastors act like people are cattle, like they own them. He was not being a good example. That said I don't think there is anything wrong with inviting him even after he leaves. I believe the LDS don't just give up either because no one knows for sure why some one leaves. It's also a way to show people they're missed. Now do you think disagreeing w LDS doctrines is the same as ripping them apart
@TrickTrolan 2 Cor. 13:5 says, Examine yourselves and see if you are in the faith; Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you, unless of course, you fail the test.
have you noticed how anything mormon is a bit like a religious relic. Mormons are steeped in religion. Law, obligation, loyalty and duty are hallmarks of the LDS. Even their temples seem a bit contrived, like a sort of penis envy of churches. Bigger, better, and exclusive. It's a piece meal of practices rather than a call to follow God. It's a little early church, a little catholic, a little Christian , a lot Masonic, a dash of this (Isaiah) and a dash of that (Joseph Smith). It's not authentic.
question: Why, if Mormons are the pillars of righteousness is Utah, a state that is 90% Mormon, among the leading states in sexual abuse crimes. Know them by thy fruit? Indeed!!!
So you're saying that it's your personal belief that Joseph Smith was duped huh? Well it's my personal belief that he wasn't. everyone should really read a book called: Joseph Smith; Rough Stone Rolling. It's a great book about his life and is agreed by historians that it's the most complete, factual book ever written about him...
@Justicejamesb@jesusisgod1 no, the biography to buy is not the official propaganda version from the LDS church, it's the one written by Fawn Brodie called "No man knows my History." outstanding book. Fawn was given unprecedented access to church records and could not lie about what she discovered. The documentation and records she supplied is staggering. The facts don't lie.
@Justicejamesb I agree with you my LDS friend. I don't believe JS was duped either. It was a cold blooded act of the will to deceive people to the pit of hell and he was used like a stooge by the enemy. He knew what he was doing for sure. It was just another money making scheme for him at first, but then he realized how much he liked all the attention and respect he got and that was his ultimate drug. It is a historical fact the JS dabbled in all kinds of spiritual and occultic stuff.
@lynnmwollet Lynn, do you not see a spiritual component to this at all? Is that the only choice ... that it's God or the natural man, Joseph? There is no other possibility?
@Sweence generally I agree with. As long as the state does not move so far to agnosticism that free religious expressions become abridged. Its a thin line to walk which is why it was not in the constitution and expressly protected in the Bill of Rights. Where did we get Separation concept? From a Jefferson letter. I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong, but one must ask why the Framers did not cannonize that which Jefferson supposedly supported. The Federalist Papers suggest they did not agree.
Trying to show that one group is Christian, while another is not, has some problems. Jesus says we should kill disobedient children, should abandon our families to preach his name, advocates slavery and beating slaves and, contrary to popular belief, he believes in all those old testemant laws, often having a penalty of death. Thankfully people claiming to be true Christians don't embrase any of that. So give me a break, you/we all pick and choose.
@feldagriff Jesus never said anything of the kind. I know you're taliking about the law that Jesus said he came to fulfill but that's not what it means. He moved us to a Spirit led relationship with God not a law-led one. And he himself broke the law for which the Pharisees pointed out to him every time. So don't tell me he advocated for those things. He did not.
Are you Christian and only believe in the Bible? Well here are some things that the Bible teaches you might want to look at... Leviticus 19:28 Genesis 38:9-10 My favorite Leviticus 19:31 Leviticus 19:27 Leviticus 11:8 Mark 10:8-9 Deuteronomy 23:1 1 Timothy 2:9 Leviticus 11:10 Deuteronomy 25:11-12 So, the next time you guys get your panties in a twist about what LDS people believe try reading your Bible and finding out what main stream Christianity believes... Peace and humptyness forever!
@Justicejamesb You probably never heard this before, but there is a distinct difference between the Old Testament and the New. Jesus instructed us to follow the spirit of the law, not law itself. He never said to live by the law, but by the spirit. And if by the spirit we break his laws, which Jesus did constantly & it freaked the Pharisees out, you do what he says. Two examples are cited in James 2:21-26 where breaking God's law is what he wanted. Under the NT we are now longer bound by the law
@Justicejamesb dear brother in Christ Jesus, if you look back the history and what Lord Jesus say in Matthew 24;23-25, 1 john 4;1-2, 1 corint 11.14 , 1 john 4;1-3, satan will pretend angel, false prophets, falst god, even false Jesus to deceive the world even christian. in Luke 1;25-36, angel Gabriel came to Marry for good news of Jesus, but 600 yrs later
,false Gabriel came to Muhammed created Quran , Islam become the bigger anti-christ, today , Muhammed did not test the spirit
@Justicejamesb same as founder of LDS, Joseph smith did not test the spirit who came to him , he was being fool by satan,how ?Apostle Paul met Jesus in his life , he become more holy and even want all brothers being single to work on God's misson,look at all cults leaderwho claim they got big mission from God's must relate with sex, how could it be JS still have time to dealing with 20 wife ? and book of Mormon copy almost 4000 words from Old and New testament ,check it out brother,God help you
Funny things the LDS people believe, come on now. Main stream Christianity is more messed up then any Mormon. My favorite one is the belief that if you pull out you get "smote." Genesis 38:9-10... hahaha that is too funny!
@Sk8er408 we already know Skip. What you also cannot explain is why you also defend Mormons while claiming to not be one. If you defend you are one. You might not be practicing, but you are right there with them.
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Anti-Mormons are as rabid as anti-semites Leave them alone. Don't agree with them? Don't join....
agelessrocker 1 day ago
Then again Osteen is not one either, so how would he know!
There is only one way to become a Christian and Osteen reject it.
ETWFJ 1 day ago
Breaking news about 'Jesus Discovery': Jerusalem Archeology Reveals Birth Of Christianity
This again proves with the bible what the Book of Mormon cannot do which is that archeology supports the bible, but no such fact can be proven with acheology for the Book of Mormon to support it's outrageous claims about civilizations with milions of people who don't generate one single artifact of evidence.
Got to huffington post & search for Jesus Discovery to see archeological evidence
krametorg 2 days ago
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
jjajpro 2 days ago 3
God is the judge of all men but He instructs us to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" ... Joel. Maybe you should study a subject before opening your mouth about it.
KristiLeeVan 2 days ago 2
If Joel was miss universe do you think his greatest hope would be for "world peace"? Or would he want joseph smith to carry him away on golden plates to planet Kolab where they could unite in a bond of unbridled idolatry? There he could also hook up with mitt & discuss their non-separation of "established" state/church back on earth for all earthlings left behind. Oh what a grande utopian view for these interplanetary leaders who could be for ever supported by planet earth's tax/tithe slaves.
imakewarwiththebeast 2 days ago
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You will all become Mormons after death, when you will be baptized by proxy into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mitt is simply fulfilling prophet Joseph Smith's directive to make the Mormon Church the central and foremost Christian denomination in America. It WILL happen.
TheShinedownfan21 3 days ago
The Republican leadership has decided that a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Ltter Day Saints will be our next President. This will give LDS a much needed boost toward our goal of complete acceptance as the one true Christian Church in the world. It was foretold by our Prophet, Joseph Smith, that one of our elders would one day rule this nation, and your vote shall make it happen. Vote for Mitt Romney, Mormon.
MRobert2l 3 days ago
@MRobert2l That's a fairly good prophecy. Kind of like the Civil War prophecy which was already rumbling around at his time. But credit should be due for it just the same. Do you know where i can find a book of correct prophecies by JS? All I can seem to find is a book of failed prophecies. I'd settle for pamphlet of prophecies or even a napkin if maybe he got a download from God when he was waiting for Martin Harris for morning coffee before they went to burn down the newspaper building.
krametorg 3 days ago
@MRobert2l Will Romeny's first act as president be to officially pardon Joseph Smith's fraud conviction?
punnet2 2 days ago
70,000 views for this video. AWESOME news as we get the message out about Mormonism.
krametorg 3 days ago
i'm talking to whom it may concern .
varelaarcadio4 3 days ago
116. And (remember) when God will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides God?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.(Al:ma'idah) holy Quran
DJibby1 3 days ago
Your ref. to Col. 1:16 in answer to the relationship between Christ & Satan I'll mull over. Was just viewing Isa. 14:12 - 15 Lucifer, morning star, wanting to be above God.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet Yes, interesting that Lucifer had pride. That means that angels can reason. God allows freedom for his angels even in Heaven. But tho he (Lucifer) wanted that, and apparently other angels wanted that as well, doesn't mean they are greater because they are created by God. But it should serve as value to you to know that Satan is known as the prince of the power of the air and that he also referred to as the god of this world.
krametorg 3 days ago
@lynnwollet The prior point is important because the bible uses language both literal and symbolic and when translated to English meaning can be lost. Mormons largely ignore Hebrew & Greek which can lead to misinterpretations. For exmp, take the word 'love' which in Greek has 4 different meanings. Suppose Jesus used "love" talking to a woman. Mormons might assume a eros or erotic love but depending on the Greek word used he might have meant brotherly, family or a Godly love.
krametorg 3 days ago
@lynnwottel Now, considering the bible's original languages, Satan is called a prince, a god, a son, an angel and then of course has different names. LDS doctrine latches onto the 'son' moniker, which it does w/ Jesus as well tho we saw him act like God, do the miraculous like God and admitted he was God, and others called him God. But some in the LDS don't care & in some places it says he's "the son" and dammit, tho another verse might shed more light on his nature, that's what he's going to be
krametorg 3 days ago
@lynnwollet What the above amounts to, Lynn is a bit like trying to drive a car by looking thru a straw. I can only see so much & the context of other things around me is just as important. The same is true for the word of God. The LDS look thru straws in reading the word. First they only read English and Old English at that. Remember the 4 words for love? That exists w/ most words, which is why context is so important and meaning is found by examining ALL of scripture to see what it says.
krametorg 3 days ago
@lynnwollet The LDS act like u should pretend those other verses aren't there. They say Jesus is the son. So I point out he's called God & Father over here. What's the LDS response? They point to a verse that calls him the Son again. Pointing the "Son" will not change the verses that also call him Father, Prince, Word & God. In other words, if we don't take out eye away from the straw of our conclusions, our concept of God's nature will be wrong no matter how sincerely we seek him. *END*
krametorg 3 days ago
I think Mormonism is hooey--sick hooey---but since its inception its existence has challenged American courts and the Constitution. "It's hooey and dangerous crap" said legislators 150 yrs ago, "But there are just too freaking many of them. Plus, it's uncool to diddle in religious belief. Plus, they're willing to defend a salt flat from the Indians. Plus, they keep SAYING they're cool. Hopefully they'll get around to treating women as humans....and stop ambushing pioneers...hopefully".
marginallymental 4 days ago
@marginallymental The mormon pioneers who lived in Salt Lake encouraged their women to get educations, they started hospitals, and were involved in the women's sufferage.
lynnmwollet 3 days ago
@lynnmwollet Lynn, if there's one thing Mormonism isn't, it's not a religion for women's rights. It is in fact a very chauvinistic faith. Polygamy is the highlight and it's downhill from there. I don't recommend you trying to make this point as the veil for it is as thin as it gets. The only thing lower than women are people of color. The next thing I know, you'll be saying the Mormons are champions of racial equality.
krametorg 3 days ago
@krametorg I mentioned a few points of equality of the ones who call themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints. Polygamy was unanimously voted to an end by the leaders in 1890 and there were actually few comparably that had more than one wife. A story that doesn't have enough space. There are churches (groups) that are called Mormons whose practices aren't supported by TCofJCofLDS ever since the day
B. Young became prophet.
lynnmwollet 2 days ago
@lynnmwollet The US gov. and men in those days (1800's) looked on women as property. The problem of women voting came about because the Latter Day Saint women had political views & voted. Gov. didn't want that. Polygamy came about because the widows weren't allowed to own property & if they were married they could (just 1 reason). In Joseph Smith's day he encouraged the women to start a Relief Society, because they had talents in compassion that men didn't. They were 2 b helpmate.
lynnmwollet 2 days ago
@lynnmwollet I met a gentleman who was from the mid-south tell me after we talked Bible at each other for awhile, that our discussion would be looked down upon from his area.Men were to discuss the Bible and if women had any questions or opinions, they were to wait until they got home.
lynnmwollet 2 days ago
@lynnmwollet the Mormons gave it up to attain statehood and nothing more. Many Latter-day Saints viewed the abandonment of polygamy as religious treason. Almost immediately splinter groups were formed to carry on the "everlasting covenant" of celestial marriage that LDS abandoned. The RLDS insist they are the real Mormons because they still practice what leads to the Everlasting Covenant in heaven. Much is made of Christianity's denominations, but that's small potatoes compared to this split
krametorg 2 days ago
@krametorg You are going to have a lot to answer for once president Mitt Romney is in office. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not to be trifled with. So be advised.
MRobert2l 2 days ago
Because so much of Mormonism was secret (temple practices, the "secret name" for instance, that only came to light recently when apostates spoke of them), people remain wary. But for me, it's the church's mutability that's terrifying. The greater society doesn't like polygamy? Great! To get statehood they dump it despite their passionate belief in it. Civil Rights era? Great! But it was only recently mormons believed blacks were even human. They'll say anything...and that's dangerous.
marginallymental 4 days ago
A Christian definition is some one who professes to follow Christ and his teachings. A cult definition is a system of beliefs and worship. In reality all religions are a cult. Mormons profess to worship Christ, have Christ in the name of their Church, observe the atonement every Sunday, study Christ's teachings, are encouraged to live a life like Christ taught. How Christian or Christ-like can you be? Mormons are Christians and a cult even if Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, & on don't want it.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet I've said this before and I'll ask this again since NOT ONE Mormon has had the heuvos to answer the question. If I call myself a Mormon but deny all the major tenants of the faith...if I reject the articles of faith, would you agree I would be rejected by Mormon faith as a devout member of the LDS?
krametorg 3 days ago
@krametorg truth is no mormon with answer you directly. I have mormon friends who can't answer to the major tenants of the faith.. they just can't. they can't defent a lot of that hatred preached by their founder or any of hate content in their doctrines. Mormons haven't even been around as long as christians and I feel a lot of the stuff they preach is just made up.
Soulfide 3 days ago
@Soulfide Yep, we know this by experience, don't we? They don't answer because they know it leads to the follow up which is, they WHY would you ever say you can be a Christian while doing exactly the same thing. (c;
krametorg 3 days ago
I didn't view Osteen's retraction, is it on youtube? Osteen (paraphasing) said he didn't know enough about Mormons to call Romney a liar. I don't think a retraction was inorder just because a reporter pushed him to say yes or no.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
0:32
“Mormon” is the mocking term Christians gave to the Saints because they had a book called the Book of Mormon.
“Christian” is the mocking term pagans gave to the follower of Christ (called Saints) because they followed a human god who called himself Christ.
That is the difference between them.
1:32
What faith? Yours? Or THE FAITH. What is THE FAITH? Your pride has blinded you.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@Sk8er408 Where's your authority in Christ? I don't care where the term "Christian" came from. It's like arguing about letting kids trick or treat on Halloween because it's a satanic holiday. I'm no victim. I'm not giving that day to Satan. I'm taking it back. I have authority in Christ over him and it's my territory and I'm not giving it to him. The same goes for "Christian," a universally accepted term, that fairly represents the body of Christ without demeaning us - that's my territory now!
krametorg 4 days ago
@Sk8er408 What faith you ask? Jude answers that Q.
According to Jude "Certain Men have secretly slipped in among you. They are GODLESS men who CHANGE THE GRACE OF OUR GOD. In this case Jude explains they acted like Grace gave them a license to sin because they knew "Grace covers a multitude of sin."
In the same way, Mormons in 2 Nephi changed grace too, which reads "You are saved by grace, after all you can do." Just as it was a bondage to sin w/ them, it's a bondage to works for Mormons now
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg
Again with the 2 nephi out of context gimmick.
Nephi a man living before Christ living the Law still new that no matter what he did to follow the Law he would fail yet still was saved by Grace. Read more then the one verse you take out of context to fit your argument.
Be we can look at what Jesus said about salvation in John 15:12-14.
We are all under the yoke of Christ. You just deny it... so you deny grace too.
Sk8er408 3 days ago
@Sk8er408 For 20 years that I have witness to Mormons I have never known 1 who ever backed away from the meaning of Grace as prescribed by the BoM. Not members, bishops or Stake Presidents. Are u SURE this is your final answer?
BTW -remember all those verses about Jesus being the "Son" u pointed me to? Show me where you vigorously pursued context in the bible where Jesus was called Father, God, the Word or where you examined the Greek or Hebrew. You're a hypocrite. U work for FairLDS don't u?
krametorg 3 days ago
@krametorg
Even LDS are prone to know knowing everything... even misunderstanding things in their own gospel. Just because they misunderstand it does not mean that is the truth of it.
Your context of 2 Nephis grace after all we have done is so far off. The context is 400BC when they were living the Law before Christ was born. Tell me how he can deny grace when it was not yet available?
Sk8er408 2 days ago
0:21
Satan was a son of G-d. Was being the key word. He fell remember and denied who he was. Do you deny he was a son of G-d?
0:26
Quakers and the moon was not a prophesy. It was mocking people like you and it was BY not JS. If you did more then read commentary you might understand that. BY in context said the wicked will never listen to the prophet and mock him. Way to prove him right.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
0:02
The correct teaching is that Kolob is a star nearest to where G-d dwells. Nice on SkipBo.
0:08
Men are gods (or at least by biblical standards those that receive the word of G-d are John10:35). Don’t you believe Jesus (an exalted man) is in fact G-d? But this is not accurate to the context of your claim. It is not so much as G-d is an exalted man but that we have the potential to become like him.
0:14
No he did not.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
Joel Osteen is not a Christian, he is a Protestant. Mormons are also Protestants, so therefore, Mormons are not Christians either. The only Christians are those people who belong to the Orthodox Christian Church, also known as the Eastern Orthodox Church.
magnus56j 4 days ago
@magnus56j Where can I find that in the bible? "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
krametorg 4 days ago
In this case you use the term "Protestant" to mean anyone who is not part of the Orthodox church, but the term itself is a kind of jingoistic falsehood. I am a Christian: Not subject to Joel Osteen, nor a Roman or Eastern patriarchy. The defining feature of my faith is not "protest" but proclamation: Of the truth of the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Those who you call Protestants are not, as you imagine, mere rebels existing in reaction to your orthodoxy. We pursue God's truth sincerely.
wordifier 4 days ago
krametorg. Remember, GOD himself chose the Jews to be his people and he their GOD. He's very tribal in that aspect. He wants us to praise and worship him, it's an obligation. That's why religion is important ... even Jesus Christ set up his own ministry, that right there should tell you how important it is to chose your religion. It's not up to you.
fljrox 4 days ago
@fljrox in Acts chapter 2 all the believers had was the presence of God. For decades we have camped around the sermon. Israel camped around the presence. When churches are more interested in building the kingdom more than they are interested in building the attendance rolls, come talk to me. Where is the power of Acts being demonstrated in the church today? It is a shell of its former self -it's a Rotary with tongues. The world has had it up to here w/ religion. They want an encounter w/ God.
krametorg 4 days ago
krametorg. When I was soul searching, I ran into a couple of LDS mission workers that almost had me convinced to join their church, they ask me to pray about it to the Holy Spirit, well I did! And I was shown all these evil images of the LDS, that told me to search elsewhere. I did search, I learned to pray, I turned from sin, and found the Holy Bible. Yes, it was LDS that started my journey, but, I am home in the Catholic Church where it is my obligation to attend Mass and learn and teach.
fljrox 4 days ago
@fljrox God is a gentleman. He is not a God of guilt and shame so he put no such obligation on you, so who did? That sounds like the Mormons where it's works, obligation, loyalty, duty...do do do. Meanwhile God is just looking for someone to take him by the hand and walk by spirit and not with our mind, our will or emotions, in other words, our souls, he wants us in the spirit. This is why he wants us to worship him in spirit. Jn 4:24. He's looking for a man after his own heart not more religion
krametorg 4 days ago
@fljrox I have heard of a few others having that happen where the answer was to worship else where. If you prayed with a sincere heart then go with it. Just keep studying your scriptures and praying. I believe He will guide your steps. Peace be with you.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet. Your right, but, we're to love one another as ourselves, so therefore, I love you and don't want to see you make grave mistakes in the name of being a fanatic for LDS. It's not supposed to be us against them, we're all GOD's children. It's satan against us, and he has told and spread lies. It's your job to recognize the voice of your shepherd when he is clearly calling you back, calling you out! I promise you Jesus Christ did not lie to those eleven apostles.
fljrox 4 days ago
@fljrox Ok, thank you my brother or sister. I will keep you in my prayers too. (That isn't sarcasim) I don't believe Jesus was a liar.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
I know more about the Bible than the BOM.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet. If the Catholic Church is apostate like your church professes, then you cannot quote the Holy Bible, it came from the Catholic Church. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit, right? If the Church is damned then everything it produced is damnable, so, there's your conundrum. You either have to admit the Catholic Church is infalible, as Jesus Christ promised it would be or LDS must reject the Holy Bible and it's teachings. You can't serve two masters.
fljrox 4 days ago
@fljrox The serving 2 masters has nothing to do with the Bible, it is who you serve (worship).The LDS church agrees with Osteen and leave the judging to God.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@fljrox How did this become about Catholic vs. Mormonism. God is not interested in building denominations, he's interested in a relationship with us personally. Frankly, he doesn't give a rip where you go to church. That's unimportant! What he wants is for you to grow up, learn to hear his voice, to walk by the spirit and stop walking out of your soul. He wants relationship, not more religion. Dare I say today that Churches are part of the problem because it is ruled by a religious spirit.
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg I don't know exactly y, but I use to be a little offended if some one asked "what are you?" I would answer a Christian. Them: "no, what church?" I'm a Christian, but I attend XX Church." Religion doesn't save any one. (Agree with your above comment.)
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
many will be called , . but not many will be chosen.
varelaarcadio4 4 days ago
@varelaarcadio4...and your point is that you're not one of the 144,000 in the JWs that claim THEY are the true church?
krametorg 4 days ago
lol your laughing when somebody is persecuted by others ? what kind of heart you have?
varelaarcadio4 4 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 Who are you talking to?
krametorg 4 days ago
I know I didn't say it previously, but good for Joel for standing up and saying he isn't to judge. Joel is a preacher of the word of God and that is all that is needed. Do you have proof that Paul went to Greece to lamb baise them or did he go to preach the word of God? Yes, your video was abrasive and you aren't going to win over Mormons with it. You might drive people to them.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet right after this soundbite went viral, Joel Osteen retracted his statement because of the firestorm of outrage from Christian's who said he betrayed the faith. Just like it would news if a Mormon prophet departed from Mormon tenants. You can understand that, right? 2. What is it about Mormon doctrine you find abrasive? All I did was put up quotes of doctrines taught by Mormon leaders. Have you told your bishopic you find it abrasive when he teaches same? I passed no judgments.
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg I showed it to a few Mormons and they never heard of those beliefs. It is insulting if the statements aren't true. --- I understand what you are trying to do. I don't agree with your method. Preaching the Gospel should be enough. Didn't Paul say in one of his letters - as long as the Gospel is preached that is all the matters. You probably know where that is --- right?
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet Lynn here's where those LDS teachings come from
>Mormons believe God lives near planet Kolob -Abraham 3:2
> God an exalted man: "God himself was as we are now" History of the Church vol. 6, p. 305
> Joseph sits in judgment: "No man will enter the celestial kingdom of God w/o the consent of Joseph Smith" Brigham Young, JOD, Vol 7, p. 289
>Jesus & Lucifer brothers: Milton R. Hunter, Gospel thru the Ages, p. 15
> Moon men - JOD vol. 13, p. 271
Are you still insulted or just horrified?
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg Again -- thanks for the refs. It sounds like the sun in that chapter of Abr. God made the heavens , so....? What is JOD abr.? I heard people from other faiths say Jesus & Lucifer were sons of God, so it isn't a Mormon thing. I'm not horrified. There is always some one that digs deeper then the average person. I had a friend that dug into the end times.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet Glad to hear you dig deep. I will hold you to that. JOD = Journal of Discourse. Concerning Jesus, how can he be a son of God if he was the creator of ALL things, visible and invisible, powers, rulers and authorities. That includes Satan, a mere angel, who is invisible. So based on Col. 1:16, Satan and Jesus could never be brothers because Jesus created Satan.
krametorg 4 days ago
are mormons christians? no, they are kooks.
Fridge760 4 days ago
Comment removed
Fridge760 4 days ago
@krametorg Are you gay?
TrickTrolan 4 days ago
@TrickTrolan Good one! I see that time in seminary is paying huge dividends. Now go take your juvenal games somewhere else.
krametorg 4 days ago
QUESTION #5 FOR MORMONS: Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon "the keystone of our religion." In light of that, where in the BoM does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and the was not always God?
krametorg 5 days ago
@krametorg My guess would be, b4 the fall, in Genesis it says He walked among the Garden with Adam and Eve or maybe that just means He has a physical body. Either way that does not mean God wasn't always God.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet the question was where is it in the BoM?
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg What do you mean? About Paul? Paul isn't in the BOM
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet not sure what you're referring to but it so happens that Paul was referred to before his time, (Paul said, "Death where is thy sting") which also appears in the BOM written 1000 years before his time if you believe Mormon doctrine. Second, my first question was why isn't the fact that God was once a man and that he is flesh and blood in the Book of Mormon? Neither appears but a misplaced quote from Paul and Shakespeare do, why?
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg
Bubba... i though we already went over this... the first one... trying to imply that LDS believe G-d lives on a planet called kolob? This is pure fiction on your part.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@Sk8er408 ATTENTION EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD. SKIPPY WANTS YOU TO KNOW THAT I MADE A MISTAKE IN THE VIDEO AND THINKS I'M NOT HONEST. SO, TO MAKE IT ALL RIGHT, HE WANTS ME TO ADMIT TO YOU THAT GOD LIVES ON THE PLANET NEXT TO KOLOB, NOT ON KOLOB ITSELF. AND HE WANTS YOU TO KNOW THAT I SPELLED KOLOB WITH AN 'A' IN THE VIDEO. I THINK THIS WILL MAKE HIM FEEL BETTER SO YOU WILL KNOW HOW SILLY IT WAS FOR ME TO SAY GOD LIVES ON KOLOB. NOW IT'S MUCH MORE BELIEVABLE. DON'T YOU AGREE? There you go Skip!
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg
Real mature. skipbo. Capslock? And tell me where it says he lives on any planet or next to kolob? We have been over this before. This was a vision that Abraham had. Like a parable being taught. There is more meaning to it then what you see and you imply what is not there. You guys try to mock JS but when you read what he has put out it is strikingly authentic to Hebrew thinking and tradition.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@Sk8er408 actually it's not even close, the evidence of which is 2 centuries of debate on the validity Mormonism that never happened to anyone other LDS or JWs. But at a high level, there are enormous problems with the BoM/JS claims concerning cultures, metallurgy, crops, geography, script, races, witnesses, style/inconsistencies, prophecies, JS's background, KJV influences, 19th Cent influences, core doctrines missing from BoM, treasure hunting/magic, conflicts of the 1st vision. Enough?
krametorg 3 days ago
@Sk8er408 I know, like I was saying above, so much is fiction. But hey, until you show me one archaeological artifacts from those civilizations that lived here in No. America, the BoM is fiction too. So it fits nicely with that. I know, you're thinking "Drat!"
krametorg 3 days ago
@krametorg
You want archaeological artifacts? Take a vacation to Southern Mexico... the artifacts they have are amazing. or you can go visit that rock in N.Mexico...
Sk8er408 2 days ago
@krametorg
Be honest in your posts. Your video is pure propaganda skipbo. It is all accusations with no facts to back it up. This is propaganda if you did not know it. How many times do i have to point out the lies in this video until you stop denying that A. i've pointed them out and B. you admit they are just lies?
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@Sk8er408 I feel like I'm arguing politics with a liberal when i talk to you. I didn't just conjure up those things in the video, every one of them comes from LDS sources whether you want to admit that or not. I know 2 centuries later it's a bummer to have to be the one to defend those ridiculous prophecies because your 'prophets' never imagined TV, Satellites, Rocket ships, but here we are. Dance dance dance, Skippy. BTW, can you point me to the book of correct prophecies by JS?
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg
I'm the furthest thing from a liberal.
I know you did not conjure them up. You just regurgitated them from a book you read that told the lie. But you are not good and reproducing the lies and miss on some. But your intent is still to lie and deceive people about the LDS church.
Show me the source on kolob then? Context. You have none at all and it shows.
I think you need to look at the bible an it's prophesies first. Your double standard is in full force.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@Sk8er408 The sources for that info:
>Journal of Discourse by LDS Ch.
>OB Huntington's Young Women's Journal by LDS Ch.
>Milton Hunter's Gospel thru the Ages by LDS Ch.
>Joseph Smith's History of the Church by LDS Ch.
Ironically & what is soooo freaking funny is that the most ardently defended doctrines that Mormons are chained to like a rotting dead body cannot be found in the BoM. God once a man? Not there! God has flesh/bone? Not there. Men become gods? Not there! More than 1 God? Not there!
krametorg 3 days ago
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@krametorg God once a man? Not there! God has flesh/bone? Not there. Men become gods? Not there! More than 1 God? Not there!
Yes it is.. 4 nephi Jesus visits them... in flesh and bone.
We become gods is the same as being saved or calling yourself a saint...
There is only one G-d. Where do they teach any different? Oh ya... the trinity teaches there are 3.
Sk8er408 2 days ago
QUESTION #4 FOR MORMONS: What does it mean to take Jesus as your Lord and Savior if he cannot forgive your sins? ("The world should know that since the Lord himself cannot forgive sins..." Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer Kimball. p. 167).
krametorg 5 days ago
@krametorg Quote it correct " the Lord himself cannot save men 'in' their sins" It goes on about how repentance is neccesary and sacrament doesn't take away sins.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet That seems like a semantic argument to me. The Lord cannot save men 'in' their sins means the same thing...his power is limited. If it's a true statement then that Jesus cannot save men from sin, or even certain sins, then the result is the same - and as such it begs the question how can Jesus be your savior if he cannot save everyone from their sin? What's he the savior of?
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg Reading the few paragraphs from the book. The point is that we need to repent not think that taking communion (sacrament) would do the trick. I would - if I could - ask him what he meant by that statement. I can only go by what is said around it. I've heard others say if you die in your sins, you're lost.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
QUESTION #3 FOR MORMONS: A rare grammatical error in an old version of the King James bible was discovered in Isa. 6:2, adding an 's' (plural) to the end of word 'seraphim'. This was changed in 20th century versions of the KJV to correct the Hebrew. How do you explain that this error is passed on to 2 Nephi 16:2 if the bible was not plagiarized by Joseph Smith. Would God not correct the error that others made in the Bible if it came directly from him as JS claims?
krametorg 5 days ago
QUESTION #2 FOR MORMONS: Have you ever read the bible from cover to cover, and prayed to God and asked him to reveal to you that it contains all of God's message to man and that no parts were lost or altered, and if the Book of Mormon is false?
krametorg 5 days ago
@krametorg I think God made it possible for the basic scriptures to be passed on to us, but you do realize that the Bible prior to 1921 had more books in it and in Constanteins day there were believed to be over 700 letters (books).
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet Lynn, that is absolutely false. What's your source? Yes, the canon as we know it did not exist before 400 BC but the one we have has existed since that time and that only refers to the New Testament. OT works predate the NT by 1000s of years. There are 1000s of fragments and books, complete and not complete of the bible. It is the most circulated literary work in history, but that doesn't mean all were ever considered for inclusion. The apocrypha is one such example.
krametorg 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet so does that mean you have or have not applied the same standard in your life to the bible that you applied to the BOM?
krametorg 4 days ago
QUESTION #1 FOR MORMONS: If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a god? D&C 132:17, 37.
krametorg 5 days ago
After the 40days in the desert, Jesus Christ went out of his way to find 12 that would be his Apostels! But, in the mormon church, it is alleged he settled for one dude. Jesus Christ promised the 12 that satan would not prevail against his Church which includes Heaven and Earth, so, apostacy never happened. If the Church was apostate when you say it was, then the Holy Bible is an apostacy and you must reject it because only bad fruit can come from a bad tree. The mormon church is suspect.
fljrox 5 days ago
@fljrox Agreed. Add to that 2 promises from God where Jesus says I am the good shepherd and my sheep know my voice and that I will never leave them and also "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Apostasy doctrines fly in the face of many things in the word.
krametorg 5 days ago
@fljrox really! which dude is that? Interesting. ----- They read the Bible in the Mormon Church, so your observation can't be right.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
Based on smiley Joel's answers, if I were him, I'd search my soul to make sure I was a true Christian. Mr. Romney's okay because Jesus is his saviour? Yeah well he's my saviour too but my Jesus is the one of the Bible not the one the Mormon "church" created to suit their agenda. Someone should tell Mr. Osteen that the Bible (Mat 24) warns of many false Christs.
rickyregina 5 days ago
@rickyregina Jesus was also a Prophet because he taught us, warned us, and his words are still preached today.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
@lynnmwollet That doesn't actually make him a prophet. It makes him more of a teacher. What makes him a prophet is his correct prophecies. For instance, he foretold his own death. He prophesied over Peter that he would deny him before the cock crowed three times. He also communicated the heart of God for his children and spoke life and hope to them in a dark world. That among other things is what made him a prophet of God.
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg
Easy… the propaganda in this video teaches people to fear and hate the LDS… nothing more.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@Sk8er408 What propaganda Skip? It's as much about the typical lame Christian response to Mormonism as it is about Mormonism itself. You still have not, in aaaaaaaaaall this time be able to dispute one thing about the video's claims concerning Mormon doctrines. You can argue with your panty-waste claims that the words don't mean what they say, but I provide citations to every heretical claim by the LDS, or I do not make them.
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg ok, yes. I was replying that he had a list of titles. Your's is better.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
Well, from my understanding, Mormons study the Bible AND the Book of Mormon. There is a scripture in the bible that says to keep the bible pure and study only the bible. The Mormons also technically classify as a cult. God has always been the supreme being and none of us are worthy enough to be gods. And no, Jesus was not a prophet. He was the Messiah and died for our sins.
OfficialLyricAshley 5 days ago
@OfficialLyricAshley actually, Jesus was a prophet AND the Messiah. But he was definitely prophetic.
krametorg 5 days ago
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@OfficialLyricAshley Jesus was also a Prophet because he taught us, warned us, and his words are still preached today.
lynnmwollet 4 days ago
those guys don't look like real mormon elders .
varelaarcadio4 5 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 they're not, they're actors. What do you think that means?
krametorg 5 days ago
@krametorg that means satan attacks 1001 ways.
varelaarcadio4 5 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 lol...now why would satan attack himself?
krametorg 5 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 because you can see the rear inside wall of their skulls through their eyes?
Meskiagkasher 5 days ago
i think people believe in it cuz this is a kind of crazy you cant make up
thehoodlum1919 5 days ago
Are Mormons Christians? Who cares? Why would anybody adhere to a fabricated Jewish deity?
And Joseph Smith was a well-knows fraud.
Meskiagkasher 5 days ago
@Meskiagkasher he will be a prophet for ever .
varelaarcadio4 5 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 yes, maybe for salami pizza.
his "work" has charlatan written all over it. this is no prophet. this is a con artist. and obviously there are enough braindead people to fall for this nonsense.
Meskiagkasher 5 days ago
@Meskiagkasher If you have anything constructive to contribute to the dialog, welcome! But if you are here to degrade people that you disagree with, then I would prefer you go someplace else. As the forum moderator, I do request people show respect and not use personal attacks. Thanks
krametorg 5 days ago
@krametorg respect must be earned. it cannot be earned by adhering to demonstrably wrong and harmful ideologies.
you want something constructive? tell people to get a proper education! that's constructive. then they won't follow empty superstitions.
Meskiagkasher 4 days ago
@Meskiagkasher I reject that because it isn't the heart of God. It is common courtesy to dialog with people. Jesus didn't rebuke the women at the well whom he knew was walking in sin. He didn't say, "Respect must be earned, you piece of crap!" Again, my board, my rules. Dialog is welcome. Debate is encouraged. But insults are not God and if you can't accept that, go to other boards where people don't care about God's hearrt. Why would anyone come to him who greets the prodigal with a club.
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg oh cut the crap. why don't you just grow out of your infantile beliefs in supernatural things and deities? you managed that with the easter bunny and santa claus. so why can't you get over similarly pointless concepts such as god or even jesus?
everybody with the slightest grasp of history knows that the biblical deity is a fabrication and amalgam of prior cults and simply stuff made-up when the torah/tanakh and new testament were written. so why don't you?
Meskiagkasher 4 days ago
@Meskiagkasher ah, so the bottom feeders return. What are you trying to prove? Nevermind, I already know.. As I told others, I suppose the reason why you have to go out seeking boards like this is because no one wants to listen to your fade-to-black message. All I know is that videos like this seem to attract atheists like flies. Given that you only want to insult people or show how superiorally arrogant you are, I'm choosing to stay on topic w what the board is about since u cannot. G'bye
krametorg 4 days ago
@krametorg have you no interest in what is true over what makes you feel good?
how dare you postulate a deity without demonstrating its existence? I be you cannot even justify *why* you believe. you just think what you are told to think. that's the opposite of education and enlightenment.
you and your kind throw humanity back into the intellectual dark ages.
shame on you.
Meskiagkasher 4 days ago
@krametorg
#1 Angels are beings either resurrected or not. Calling them a god implies the same thing but with an emphasis on one that has accepted the gospel and is saved.
#2 They do… their seminariy has a 4 year cycle. OT, NT, BoM, D&C/PoGP/HC
#3 What is your understanding of 2 Nephi 12:16? Or the JST of Revelation 12:1–4? These have always struck me as very odd indeed.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@krametorg
#4 This is actually the best propaganda point I’ve seen in awhile. Jesus does not forgive our sins, He paid the price for them, all we must do is look to him for that grace he gives. If he merely forgave them why did he have to suffer for them? The Law is still very much enforced. That is why we still sin (no Law no sin). A+ on misuse of context. But I don’t expect much of an understanding about books of this caliber to make any sense to you.
Sk8er408 4 days ago
@krametorg
#5 1st Elohiem is G-d in the Bible not sure why people think Elohiem is an exclusive LDS thing? We can approach this 2 different ways U believe in the trinity & the trinity teaches that Jesus is G-d & Jesus was a mortal man on earth. The other way is that LDS dont believe that G-d was ever a mortal man like us nor was G-d ever not G-d This comes from a confusing on the principal of Eternal Progression. Especially when you lump in quotes that do not pertain to each other
Sk8er408 4 days ago
How come I didn't know about this?!?!!?!?! O.O
Xdifferent4everX 6 days ago
Every church wants to bring people to Christ, but just about every church points at the other saying - that one is wrong. So many people are leaving churches or not wanting anything to do with God or Christ because of this. If we go about preaching the love of God instead of browbeating & scolding others about what they believe, I think we would win more souls. Who wants come to Christ or join a church under those conditions.
lynnmwollet 6 days ago
@lynnmwollet Lynn, you act like these differences are minor. They are not. For example, if I went around calling my Church an LDS church but rejected the 17 articles of faith, would you stay silent to a fellow Mormon who indicated to you his intentions to join my church or would you say something?
krametorg 6 days ago
@krametorg there's only 13 articles of faith.
varelaarcadio4 5 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 correct, but oddly there are "17 points of the true church."
krametorg 5 days ago
@krametorg I didn't say we need to stay silent, but there is a difference between talking to some one & ripping them apart or guilting them into something. I'm not speaking just LDS. Other churches also. For ex: The youth at a church we attended were still inviting him to events after he moved to a church near our house. He stopped going to events 'cause he was getting static from a few of the adults & lastly the pastor got snippy 'cause he wasn't coming to morning service.
lynnmwollet 5 days ago
@lynnmwollet Lynn, let me start with the fact that pastors and adults getting snippy is not good. Some pastors act like people are cattle, like they own them. He was not being a good example. That said I don't think there is anything wrong with inviting him even after he leaves. I believe the LDS don't just give up either because no one knows for sure why some one leaves. It's also a way to show people they're missed. Now do you think disagreeing w LDS doctrines is the same as ripping them apart
krametorg 5 days ago
@lynnmwollet I will say that we may ask god about that .
varelaarcadio4 5 days ago
The church of jesus christ of latter day saints is the truest church on this living planet!
KobeKalani7 6 days ago
@KobeKalani7 based on what?
krametorg 6 days ago
@KobeKalani7 I agree , because I asked heavenly father about it and I got an answer from him.
varelaarcadio4 5 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 Could you describe how you got the confirmation of this revelation?
krametorg 5 days ago
@varelaarcadio4 Come in Kobe...come in. All we're getting to the last question is radio silence. Kobe, come in.
krametorg 5 days ago
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints is True as is The Book of Mormon .....
No reply or comment will change the fact so don't bother
TrickTrolan 1 week ago
@TrickTrolan That's right! You wouldn't want to be perceived as a truth seeker, would you?
krametorg 6 days ago
@TrickTrolan 2 Cor. 13:5 says, Examine yourselves and see if you are in the faith; Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you, unless of course, you fail the test.
krametorg 5 days ago
have you noticed how anything mormon is a bit like a religious relic. Mormons are steeped in religion. Law, obligation, loyalty and duty are hallmarks of the LDS. Even their temples seem a bit contrived, like a sort of penis envy of churches. Bigger, better, and exclusive. It's a piece meal of practices rather than a call to follow God. It's a little early church, a little catholic, a little Christian , a lot Masonic, a dash of this (Isaiah) and a dash of that (Joseph Smith). It's not authentic.
krametorg 1 week ago
question: Why, if Mormons are the pillars of righteousness is Utah, a state that is 90% Mormon, among the leading states in sexual abuse crimes. Know them by thy fruit? Indeed!!!
krametorg 1 week ago
@jesusisgod1
So you're saying that it's your personal belief that Joseph Smith was duped huh? Well it's my personal belief that he wasn't. everyone should really read a book called: Joseph Smith; Rough Stone Rolling. It's a great book about his life and is agreed by historians that it's the most complete, factual book ever written about him...
Justicejamesb 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb and you're not LDS. BS! Thou shalt not bear false witness, James
krametorg 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb @jesusisgod1 no, the biography to buy is not the official propaganda version from the LDS church, it's the one written by Fawn Brodie called "No man knows my History." outstanding book. Fawn was given unprecedented access to church records and could not lie about what she discovered. The documentation and records she supplied is staggering. The facts don't lie.
krametorg 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb I agree with you my LDS friend. I don't believe JS was duped either. It was a cold blooded act of the will to deceive people to the pit of hell and he was used like a stooge by the enemy. He knew what he was doing for sure. It was just another money making scheme for him at first, but then he realized how much he liked all the attention and respect he got and that was his ultimate drug. It is a historical fact the JS dabbled in all kinds of spiritual and occultic stuff.
krametorg 1 week ago
@krametorg For having a fourth grade education, he was a genius to be able to make all that up, that even the educated could be deceived,
lynnmwollet 5 days ago
@lynnmwollet Lynn, do you not see a spiritual component to this at all? Is that the only choice ... that it's God or the natural man, Joseph? There is no other possibility?
krametorg 5 days ago
@Sweence generally I agree with. As long as the state does not move so far to agnosticism that free religious expressions become abridged. Its a thin line to walk which is why it was not in the constitution and expressly protected in the Bill of Rights. Where did we get Separation concept? From a Jefferson letter. I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong, but one must ask why the Framers did not cannonize that which Jefferson supposedly supported. The Federalist Papers suggest they did not agree.
krametorg 1 week ago
Trying to show that one group is Christian, while another is not, has some problems. Jesus says we should kill disobedient children, should abandon our families to preach his name, advocates slavery and beating slaves and, contrary to popular belief, he believes in all those old testemant laws, often having a penalty of death. Thankfully people claiming to be true Christians don't embrase any of that. So give me a break, you/we all pick and choose.
feldagriff 1 week ago
@feldagriff Jesus never said anything of the kind. I know you're taliking about the law that Jesus said he came to fulfill but that's not what it means. He moved us to a Spirit led relationship with God not a law-led one. And he himself broke the law for which the Pharisees pointed out to him every time. So don't tell me he advocated for those things. He did not.
krametorg 1 week ago
Justicejamesb 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb You probably never heard this before, but there is a distinct difference between the Old Testament and the New. Jesus instructed us to follow the spirit of the law, not law itself. He never said to live by the law, but by the spirit. And if by the spirit we break his laws, which Jesus did constantly & it freaked the Pharisees out, you do what he says. Two examples are cited in James 2:21-26 where breaking God's law is what he wanted. Under the NT we are now longer bound by the law
krametorg 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb ...that is, we are NO longer bound by the law.
krametorg 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb dear brother in Christ Jesus, if you look back the history and what Lord Jesus say in Matthew 24;23-25, 1 john 4;1-2, 1 corint 11.14 , 1 john 4;1-3, satan will pretend angel, false prophets, falst god, even false Jesus to deceive the world even christian. in Luke 1;25-36, angel Gabriel came to Marry for good news of Jesus, but 600 yrs later
,false Gabriel came to Muhammed created Quran , Islam become the bigger anti-christ, today , Muhammed did not test the spirit
jesusisisgod1 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb same as founder of LDS, Joseph smith did not test the spirit who came to him , he was being fool by satan,how ?Apostle Paul met Jesus in his life , he become more holy and even want all brothers being single to work on God's misson,look at all cults leaderwho claim they got big mission from God's must relate with sex, how could it be JS still have time to dealing with 20 wife ? and book of Mormon copy almost 4000 words from Old and New testament ,check it out brother,God help you
jesusisisgod1 1 week ago
@krametorg
I'm not LDS. I love their church and will defend it to my last breath.
@basedinreality1
Funny things the LDS people believe, come on now. Main stream Christianity is more messed up then any Mormon. My favorite one is the belief that if you pull out you get "smote." Genesis 38:9-10... hahaha that is too funny!
Justicejamesb 1 week ago
@Justicejamesb I'm not LDS. I love their church and will defend it to my last breath.
Whenit comes to krametorg if you defend the LDS church then you are LDS by default.
Sk8er408 1 week ago
@Sk8er408 we already know Skip. What you also cannot explain is why you also defend Mormons while claiming to not be one. If you defend you are one. You might not be practicing, but you are right there with them.
krametorg 1 week ago