hammaborg talhoffer variations for viking shield and sword

[FutureUSMC12]

Que? Yeah...I felt like being different from everyone.

[purzelbaum19]

wo übt ihr sowas ?! besser gesagt wo kommt ihr her ? ;)

[evilpiggy1000]

how large are the rounds you are using

[Odiensdiener12]

Man was ein schund!

Ist doch schwachsinn.

[SvenDreyriAx]

If I've read this title correctly, then these techniqueswere recorded by Talhoffer in the C15th so no point trolling about them. Though it would have odd to write about Vikign techniques in the C15th.

That aside, great video!!!

[grumpycham]

Moving the shield across your entire body is waste of movement also, you should be more focused on pinning your oppents sword arm with a shield edge. If I see somone cover their eyes 99% they are dead.

[grumpycham]

when you bring your shield across your eyes your making yourself very vunerable

[ulgraf1]

Sollte man das Überkreuzen der Arme beim Runschildkampf nicht vermeiden?

[Aeldwulf]

Warum sollte man den Schild derart schräg über sich halten, anstatt seinen Körper damit zu decken? Verstehe ich nicht diese "Technik". Welchen Sinn hat die?

Halte ich meinen Schild am Köper, sind doch alle im Vid gezeigten "Techniken" für den Eimer.

[halfblood47]

@Aeldwulf der schild deckt in diesem Fall die Art deines Angriffs! ich verberge damit wie ich mit dem Schwert angreife...

[ehrke5]

hallo.eure schilde wirken sehr robust.was habt ihr für ein holz benutzt und wieviel mm?die umrandung ist aus rohhaut oder?

[ThegnThrand]

This is Thrand!!!!

Awesome Techniques!!!!

[infokemp]

Excellent work.

[DopamineFixx]

..... As for shields, the truth is simply men-at-arms learned basic fundamentals with ( in this case ) shields and the rest they felt things along as they learned and gained experience from learning what works and what doesn't. After learns what actually works ( as opposed to what doesn't ) they then applied these things in duels and battle. The truth of things is simple. Do what works.

[DopamineFixx]

Why all this fighting over why Tossetoke did this or that. The truth of the matter is plain. All practioners of arms are at different levels of understanding. Some high, some low, all true practioners do the best they can with the materials they have available. I believe what Tossetoke was saying was he took Talhoffer works and applied them to Viking concepts ( despite the difference in years between the Vikings and Talhoffer.)

[jarllochac]

I have serious doubts if the style would work at full spped

[AwsomeKwatchy]

@jarllochac look at the vid "Large shield free fights" by user mikkelpauli

[nkariaus]

@jarllochac These techniques do work at full-speed, but generally are only useful against someone using the same techniques to create the correct openings or against opponents that do not have a lot of combat experiance and are easily overwhelmed by the fact that it is sort of fancy looking.

[Berkanno]

nice techniques, viking variation.

[tonymahonyman]

sehr schön!

[dickcassidy]

shit I know your right ,but hell tey looked good in 13th warrior!

[TheNorthernBomber]

how large are the shields you are using?

[NorthernerOfficial]

@TheNorthernBomber

A traditional viking shield is 3 ft.

[hotspurschool]

Love it! Keep up the excellent shield work chaps!

[sternburg10]

totesser?

[cool22Harry]

write words

[moOswe]

You NEVER hold a sheild like that, not even when striking :S The point of using a sheild is not to have a clear right side but to have a protected front... Also, always avoid blade to blade contact if possible...

[123elnat]

And yet, They are shown being used that way in Talhoffer's manual. Read Wagner and Hand's articles in SPADA and SPADA II for the background to this, and how it works. This is the documented way of using a shield...

[moOswe]

Did you know that the biggest problem of reenactment is that nothing got written down untill the christians came? IF you knew that, do you know why the christians came in the first place..? They came with gold to bribe the viking leaders to unite with the dark side. Thats also the reson reenactors like these thinks a viking sheild is carried like this. No wonder there was no more viking sheild walls...

[123elnat]

Ye gods. This is a technique for SINGLE COMBAT. A shield wall is not single combat. Lots of people used shields like this, not just the vikings, particularly the Anglo-Saxons and the Franks, who left manuscript evidence indicating that shields were used like this in the Early Medieval period. Again, read Wagner and Hand's articles.

As for the rest of the rant, please go read some decent history books.

[moOswe]

Look over there --->

Its tagged vikings and nothing else -.-

This is not how a viking would use hes sheild. It leaves a opening (as u can c), something no viking would allow either in or outside a sheild wall. The sheild was used to cover up the front of the body, its called common sense unlike this.

[123elnat]

It is called "closing the line" and is a standard concept in western swordplay. All use of a shield creates an opening somewhere - this method opens and closes openings dynamically to block one side or another.

"Viking shield" is a generic term for a round, center-gripped shield, as used throughout Europe from AD 200 to after 1050, as anyone who has studied the subject at all knows. Look at Frankish or Anglo-Saxon manuscripts - they show the same style.

[moOswe]

Its not tagged saxons but its tagged viking in two languages. The vikings never held their sheild like this unless they made a striking motion in which case this technique would never work anyhow. Either way its a fail. Dont try to deny it.

[123elnat]

How do you know how vikings used their shields? They never wrote anything down, remember?

I am also still waiting for you to tell me who Talhoffer was.

Incidentally, just holding the shield out in front of you doesn't tend to work very well against the technique shown in the video. Wagner and Hand's article in SPADA II shows what happens...

[123elnat]

Incidentally, do you know who Talhoffer was, and how he relates to this argument?

[Nec0byte]

Wrong. There were lots of things written down before the christians came. The thing is that THEY BURNT IT ALL.

[Merlkir]

:D go read some neo-pagan fairytales. Oh wait. You can't, because those evil christians burnt them all.

[QAeternus]

Who cares what was written down or when. This isn't exactly a complicated system. If we know for a fact that every reference to any weapon combination even remotely similar to this says "do it like this", and a guy who actually owns these weapons and *has friends* actually tries it....guess what?

It works and it makes perfect sense.

Incidentally, no guard leaves zero openings and still has it possible for *you* to strike. In destreza this is called "defense by threat".

[QAeternus]

If you "turtle" then your "no openings" just got you killed.

[moOswe]

As Merlkir wrote this is highly speculative. The only thing that you really can count on is tradition. I live in the North and know of the true tradition of the vikings. These guys dont. What they show prove why u shouldent do like they do. Wish I could show them the true way of a viking warrior.

[halfassedfart]

Oh really? Bring your ass down to the lab, the boys will be interested in the this new phenomenon. We've tentatively settled on 'geographic osmosis', but it's subject to change.

[moOswe]

Wish I had money to waste on this just to prove my point. unfortunately I dont. Perhaps these clows can take a trip to sweden instead?

[halfassedfart]

Just to kick the air out of a sorry braggart? I'm sorry, but if they spent money to do that to every idiot who disagreed with them out of ignorance, even Gates' fortune wouldn't be enough to finance them.

In case you didn't realise, these interpretations are not based on sources from the Viking period. They are based on TALHOFFER. Get that into your skull. They are using modified techniques originally used for the duelling shield and the like. Individual and mass combat are bloody different.

[moOswe]

Why then is it taged viking and wiking but not talhoffer..?

[halfassedfart]

I don't know, maybe they overestimated your intelligence and resourcefulness by several orders of magnitude? Maybe because 'Viking' and variations thereof receive far more hits per day than an old German fencing master? Maybe because they still put it IN THE FUCKING TITLE anyway?

[moOswe]

You really dont understand what tags are used for huh?

[halfassedfart]

And your reading comprehension sucks.

Tags are used to group videos associated with certain subjects. Just because they neglected to tag the video with doesn't mean that the video can't be include such content. I would have thought this self-evident. I also notice that you didn't point out that they neglected 'breathing', 'seeing', 'gripping', 'staying indoors', or 'possession of more than a peanut-sized brain' etc.

[moOswe]

"Tags are used to group videos associated with certain subjects" Good girl, proving my point right there :)

[halfassedfart]

Nothing like good ol' fashioned misogyny to help your case.

[halfassedfart]

Just reread your previous comments. Gods, you really are bloody stupid, aren't you? Only the small-minded and unintelligent could pursue such an irrelevant peripheral detail with that relentless vigour.

Someone looking up Talhoffer is looking for a specific set of things, and Viking S&B adapted from his duelling shield techniques is several centuries off the mark.

[moOswe]

lol! U really care dont u? Everything is so very important too you isint it?

Things isint going your way in life right now, is that it? Had your period yet? Might be it...

[halfassedfart]

I don't care, I'm just picking on stupid people on Youtube.

Ironically, you've been posting on this for far longer. Failed shot, buddy.

[moOswe]

ahaha u even cared to look that up! But your right, I have a bad habbit of winding up people like yourself. Im like them dogs who can sniff a period coming from miles away ;)

[halfassedfart]

Oh really? I'm male, FYI.

If you can't even be bothered to scroll down for a simple check, I'm not sure what you're doing as a human.

Oh, and by the way, Google is your friend. Apparently you are the bugger that doesn't know what a tag is for.

[moOswe]

Then why are you acting like a bitch having her period? Bleeding out of the old ass again huh?

[halfassedfart]

Nope, just correcting idiocy. ;)

[effigytormented]

or maybe because of the shield ya?

[gekiryudojo]

very cool work!

[brage92]

wear do you bay that gear?

[Demarkil]

The Hammaborg group does the best instructional videos I have ever seen on the internet. You show the thechinques very clearly, from different angles and at different speeds. Kudos to a job well done!

[Rukiss1]

Watching a video like this is educational in uncovering European heritage, NOT that of people form some other region on Earth. Critics of European culture pore their derision down of European descendants ,because it's popular to do so. Remember some thing. Remains of Caucasian burials were found in modern China dated before the first Chines Emperor. These Caucasians brought with them art, the wheal, agriculture, mathematics, and architecture. They also intermarried. Making the Chines white!

[Merlkir]

That is highly speculative since almost nothing is known about these "caucasians".

[TeutonicWulfKnight]

Our culture is the last ignorance fucking bullshit.

Your idioticy and lack of logic is so brainless.....

You could suck your fucking indian bullshit alone....

[effigytormented]

speak much?

[Vikingmetal82]

Those techniques work well......if you fight someone who is paralyzed and doesnt move xD

[mrgruber]

have you thought that maybe the purpose of this video is to demonstrate, it is not a fight video. I am willing to bet that either of those guys could teach you a thing or two about how to use a sword.... maybe use your brain before you post dumb ass comments

[ajseary]

bodiharma is the soul provider of of all modern martial arts that is for eastern martial arts the mother for western martail arts is pankration which was develpoed by the persains and middle easterns around 648 BC and could be even older. pancrase is a form wrestiling, or grappling. found in many countries like more notably greece. but then again we have been killing eachother for eons so lets stop bickering about what came first and which one is better

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Exactly... the origins of MA are lost in the mists of time, back in Africa, and perhaps with the more advanced hominids that were our progenitors.

[ajseary]

well as human beings we all come from africa so surely fighting skills must have been passed down through some were whether it was through us killing eachother or just killing animals perhaps this how it came to

[DieKarooKind]

We don't ll come from fricken Africa! That is just some BS that some hippy Scientist made up! Most modern Research points to "mankind" coming from the Middle East, and Anatolia, which just so happens to be where the most advaned and oldest Civilisations came from, funny that hey? It's also where the Bible tells us Noah's Ark landed. Funny how it take "Science" so long to catch up with what the rest of humanity has known for millenia.

[ajseary]

ok first off Noahs ark didnt happen that was fictional, second the oldest human remains have been found in africa and nothing predates those remians in any other country so abd also the bible was wrote 6-7 hundred years after those events so details might have been washed away so dont releigh on the bible or fictional stories to tell u were we come from as a human race.....retards excluded off course

[valueoftruth]

noahs ark is not fictional just metaphorical!

[Noahwig]

did you say my name? just joking :p

[valueoftruth]

maybe :p

[effigytormented]

aren't they the same? Fictional means "not real". But no, Noah's ark was real, but not in the way you think, I believe it happened to some Sumerian fellow, he was a king or something and the Jews thought the story proved a good point.

[rottu15]

KalariPayattu is mother of all martial art

[TeutonicWulfKnight]

Your ignorance and stupidity is awesome.

Go bathing in Ganges idiot.

[rottu15]

western people have done this many times...adapt techniques and arts do little bit modifications and promote them as theirs.......

did u ever try to see kalaripayattu fighting arts ...buddha take indian martial art in china and eastern asia...after wards it spread all over....

same happened with law of gravity...its calculation develoved by bhaskracharya--legend mathematician...called this force gurutvakarshan ..which later in english become gravational....

[taitungknight]

Thanks Rottu15! In future I'll be sure to buy Asian then, as they NEVER do that!

[rottu15]

This art is complete copy of KalariPayattu-(oldest amrtial art of world ,emerged in India by dravidians)

if dont belive simply serach kalariPayattu fights in Youtube..

[Herulfr]

no, this is war!

[Kunstdesfechtens]

No, it isn't. Martial Arts from all over the world share many commom techniques. A sword is a sword, and there are only so many ways one can be used. There is no "mother" martial art. All cultures that have to fight develop them. You find similar sword and buckler techniques in Georgian MA as well. You'll find that German longsword and Kenjutsu have many similarities, and they were developed completely independant of each other.

[rottu15]

i do agree....as man came into existence he must have developed fighting skill to protect himself...but here this art is copy of kalaripyattu.....well/..about word mother....fighting skill like martial art, judo, tycondo, karate, etc...many techniques came out of indian martial art....as budhaa learned this art and spread in eastern asia and other part of world......difference is that people learned these arts , modified , spread with their given name....which most of chinese guru did.......

[rottu15]

here iam nt trying to show the greatness of india ..but just telling fact...dont belive ..go ahead and read wikipedia...if this would have developed somewhere else then i would have supported that land...

[TeutonicWulfKnight]

1. wiki knows not all

2. Fighting Artts are developt BEFOR Mankind!!!

[TheUsrper1]

How can fighting arts develop before mankind? I believe fighting was developed before man, but not fighting *arts*. Plus, who else but man would call fighting an art form?

[TeutonicWulfKnight]

Every species has their ability to survive, their "Art to fight". You do not know if mayby an ant or wasp think about his struggle and to deal with it...

On the other Hand Mankind fighting arts are often inspired by animal moves.....

They lived milions of years befor us, they couldn´t be stupid...

[effigytormented]

Seriously dude? Ants and wasps are literally robots, they have no brains, they have what science calls a fused ganglia. I learned this in biology, because I went to school.

The main thing that seperates humans from animals is their inability to control breath, which is the basis for all martial arts, even in the west we call this tense exhalation.

It's only an "art" when somebody focuses time for the perfection of that thing. That's what art is kid.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

No, it ISN'T. It is parallel evolution. It is not the same thing. This is descended from the indigenous fighting styles of German tribesmen if you go back far enough. Just because something LOOKS the same doesn't mean it is related. Do not confuse myth with history and supposition with actual science.

[matthiasofgondor]

exactly. This is a germanic fighting style adapted to viking equipment. This has absolutey nothing to do with india and nothing to do with animals. Animals uses raw instinct and primal thought to "fight" and thusly cannot be called an "art" because to create art one must be able to reflect on a thought and animals being instinctive arn't actively thinking when they "fight"

[Cornerless]

@Kunstdesfechtens Ye, but a sword is not a sword ;)

In Europe the sword were mostly ambiguous and in Asia they had single edges. So the techniques were not that often too similar. In China they combinited their techniques with Kung Fu and animal specialisations.

And I would say, there is a mother of marterial art in terms of unarmed fights - Southern Shaolin. It is the oldest (mostly) unchanged MA in the world and all new MA's are inspirated by that.

(I hope you understand - Google translator^^)

[Kunstdesfechtens]

@Cornerless Not always so. The Jian is double edged, and there were double-edged swords in Japan as well. I train in koryu Japanese swordsmanship in addition to German swordsmanship, and many of the techniques are identical or nearly so. There's only so many ways to use a blade that actually work. :)

[Cornerless]

@Kunstdesfechtens True ^^

Me, I practise Nothern Shaolin Kung Fu also with weapons like staff, spear, sword (oh mistake, it is double-edged too ^^''') and saber.

[Ranziel1]

The one with a small guard is caroling, the bald guys seems to be wielding some kind of arming sword.

[severedwords]

what are the weapons you are using?

[rogsvarog]

catapults

[tsafa1]

That was funny :P

[jhk393]

hahaha!!

[SirTwilight83]

Lol... that made my day :D

[grailchaser]

So the first round of attacks against a static opponent are the foundation against which the counters in the second round are devised? Very nice.

[warzechas]

The last comment of mine was intended to be an answer to the question whether the original techniques come from Hans Talhoffer's section on dueling shields.

They do.

[balubulaba]

hey did a great job good vid, thanks for uploading!

[LessaAlessandro]

Hi! from whic text/source you have study this kind of combat?

[haffoc]

Yep.

[7563645785]

lets chat

just moved new area Kf

[grailchaser]

So where does Talhoffer teach you to do shield to shield pushes? Is this fromt he dueling shields section?

[warzechas]

That's right.

I think the reason why Talhoffer deals with the 'geschrenckter Schild' (crossed or turned shield) a lot is for the simple fact that it is not very rewarding to attack a shield fighter's shield side with the sword.

Thus, Talhoffer shows many counters against being attacked with a 'turned shield'.

We adapted some of these techniques for the center-gripped round shield as an experiment.

[haffoc]

After studying this stuff from Hammaborg's vids, I tried some of it out not to long ago in freeplay. It worked really well. I was impressed.

[tsafa1]

Very nice drilling. Do you guys do any free sparring with sword and shield? I would love to see some video.

[ChurchHatesTucker]

OK, I liked this one a lot. I shows how a relatively simple encounter (sword and shield vs. same) can have many different outcomes.

Still wish you'd put some kind of label on the encounters, though.

[Vikingmetal82]

plus no one will stand with the shield near the head like this...the shield is there to cover the front of the body and should be hold in front of it

[tossetoke]

du meinst so wie im video: hammaborg viking shield and sword I?

sehr schlau...

[warzechas]

Hi Vikingmetal82.

The crossed shield is in fact difficult to employ as an initial attack in free play. It does work most excellent as a counter, though.

As for the frontal square on shield position you suggest: We love it when people use this position in single combat. What happens then you can watch in our according video 'hammaborg viking shield and sword I'.

And:

What do you mean by 'real reenactment fighting'?

Sounds like a paradox to me.

We are not devoted to sports in costume!

[buboetherat]

Ironically, I see the shield near the head an awful lot in the re-enactment group that I've participated in a fair bit (the SCA).

[Vikingmetal82]

nice techniques.....if the enemy is not moving...crossing your sword arm over your shieldarm is the dumbest thing to do (thats the reason why lefthanders are so tricky to fight^^) because the enemy just hast to move forward and pushes his shield against that of the enemy...this way he catches the crosses arms between the attackers body and his own shield....theory is one thing, real reenactment fighting is the other

[buboetherat]

Which group's "real" re-enactment fighting are you referencing? I'd hazard that the Tallhoffer techniques have been around longer than any re-enactment group and have survived because they worked. The experiences of re-enactment groups cannot reflect the reality of an actual combat because of the distortions created by safety rules, equipment differences from the original, etc.

[taitungknight]

I've seen these techniques before - they come from Medieval swordfighting instruction books.

[Semiomniscient]

I don't get to fight, and never really have. We played around with toys and sticks as kids... but not really as adults. How do people get involved in this sort of thing? I'm looking for Western style fighting. I don't think it's popular around Baton Rouge, Louisiana, USA though.

[mustbe18]

google SCA

[BelligerentAuthority]

Very good techniques, but I can't ever get close enough to use it. My friends back off really far and it's annoying because it's always the same fight and it sucks. But at least I'm fighting again.

[averit]

Very good job. It's hard to find a really good instructional here.

[andrew01292]

This seems like it would need some adjustment if it were to be put into action against someone using diffrent equipment.

[dniowiec]

nie no kurwa ludzie co wy robicie ? kto trzyma taka postawe ? ja pierdole w czym ma to pomóc ? nie atakuje sie ponizej łokci bo nie punktowane miejsce lepiej zajmijcie sie rzemiosłem

[averit]

Nie co? Niepunktowane? ;D To numer. Do głowy by mi nie przyszło, żeby olać punkty witalne, aorty, tętnice, oczy, nos, ścięgna i atakować punktowaną górę ciała. ;D

[bigfatnoisemaker]

ziemlich coole ideen- "trapping hands" mit schwert u. schild. danke fürs posten.

[rpleasant57]

Respectfully. In the first technique the man on the right uses his shield to block the man on the left from using his shield to defend himself. Why is the man on the left just sitting still with his shield not covering his body? Also, when the man on the right comes in if he turned his shield to up and to outside it would fully protect him from the counters shown and still prevent the man on the left from defending with his shield.

[warzechas]

In the first technique the left guy remains still for demonstration purposes only. If he would move his shield to cover his sword side, the attacker would use a different technique after stepping into mid-distance. We are going to show this another time.

[warzechas]

The turned shield is but one of various options to attack an opening and achieve a successful shield bind. We hope to cover more material soon. If you want to go into further detail, please visit the according thread on Sword Forum International, HES Forum.

Your comment is appreciated.

[ranpleasant]

Ok, thanks.

[InsanityIndes]

Hi Hammborg!

It looks quite good, but a little bit strange that the opponent do not cover hisself with the shield. when he is so wide open, it wouldnt need a technique

[Kortoso]

He was covering himself from the quarter from which the sword normally comes, at the same time keeping the shield from interfering with his own strikes. This is for melee combat, not shield wall.

[Kortoso]

However, he could guard against this attack by simply inclining his sword tip to his left.

[hotspurschool]

lovely!

[Djemps]

THAT'S how to use a shield! Now can you show some actual Swabian Dueling shield demos instead of just their application to viking shields?

[tossetoke]

thanks.

but how without duelling shields?

[Djemps]

I know, there is very little information on how they were made. Are there actualy any surviving examples? I don't think there is. I'm just a big fan of deuling shields.

[warzechas]

Tossetoke was actually considering constructing a pair next year. We will see.

There is a video on Youtube called 'Duelling shield and longsword freeplay' by some guys from Northern England.

[bonzai300]

So far North in England some might even call it "Scotland" ;)

[Djemps]

Yay! I'm so glad we Americans aren't the only folks who mess up their world geography at times. That was pretty funny.