What exactly is this guy a doctor of. Billions of dollars are spent on researching addiction, spread globally between thousands of scientists, universities, health facilities, resulting in the present treatment methods in which our societies have today. Yet this guy seems to think his theories/opinions unsupported are more suitable. Infact why am I wasting my time watching this crap and posting on it . . . this guys posts serve no good purpose other than to buffer his false ego
Glad he clarified that, making note. Was wondering re: his views on withdrawal in other writings of his, as the problem with prescription opiates offers newer dimensions to the usual arguments, & 1 that the research shows (&, as he said also with antidepressants) 'withdrawal' from. Of course, the NA folks just say anyone who enjoyed painkillers for long term med treatment & had trouble getting off of them physically is the same as the heroin addict shooting up illegally, which is more absurd...
Perhaps he is in denial, takes drugs and alcohol and wants to continue without anyone interfering. His permissive approach seems as if it would be ridiculously ineffective.
@Hammersley1967 ONE OF THE SADDEST STORIES,YEARS AGO,I FORGET HER NAME,THIS WOMAN WHO STARTED A BIG GROUP OF THOSE THINKING THEY COULD MODERATELY DRINK,even though they sought help for drinkin,go figure,THAT WOMAN HIT AND KILLED A PERSON WHILE DRUNK,LATER,SO MUCH FOR MODERATION PEOPLE,THAT JERK WILL HAVE A DEAD CORPSE BEHIND HER EYES EVERY TIME HER LYING MOUTH OPENS,PRAY SHE SHUTS UPi
The moderate drinking rationale stems from the psychologist D.L. Davies who published a long term study of 93 male alcoholics in 1962. Davies claimed to have found a number of previously diagnosed alcoholics who were able to moderate their drinking. Dr. Alan Marlatt, an alcoholism researcher from the University of Washington, cited this study article in the "American Psychologist" (the official journal of the American Psychologist Association) in 1983:
“Davies sent shock waves through the alcoholism field by publishing the results of a long-term follow-up of patients treated for alcoholism at the Maudsley Hospital in London. In his report, Davies challenged the traditional emphasis on total abstinence as the only viable “cure” for alcoholism by showing that of 93 male alcoholics who were followed up for a period of from 7 to 11 years following treatment, seven reported a pattern of normal drinking.” (Marlatt 1983)
Unfortunately for Marlatt, two years after he published this article, another British researcher Griffith Edwards (1985) published a further follow-up of the patients described by D.L. Davies. As Edwards pointed out, of the seven men Davies categorized as normal drinkers, five were discovered to have resumed destructive drinking. Three of these five destructive drinkers were drinking non-normally even during the original follow-up by Davies who was unaware of this.
One of the seven men eventually experienced Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome, one was hospitalized with peptic ulcer and another experienced liver enlargement as a result of heavy drinking. Three of the seven men also used psychoactive drugs in addition to drinking heavily. Of the seven men only two of the entire sample of 93 men appeared to be drinking non-destructively in Edwards’ further follow-up.
However, one of these men was only slightly dependent on alcohol to begin with. In effect, only one man out of a sample of 93 men was drinking non-destructively in Edwards’ follow up. Marlatt can be forgiven for publishing his comments two years before Edwards published a disconfirmation of Davies’ claims, but I find it significant that Marlatt has not published a retraction, clarification or apology to members of the American Psychological Association for misinforming them.
and.....AA 12 steppers always attack viciously anyone who disagrees with their cult. That should be answer enough if youre thinking of going to AA/NA. Don't do it!
Men like this should be forced to live with the consequences of their opinions. He has resources to insulate himself from the mayhem he would spread , so would never be on the receiving end of the shit that would ensue from liberating "unstoppable" forces. He should be made to live next to a needle park. After a few muggings and rows with his grandkids because they wanted to go out, he may even discover the real world.
wow you tell the same story just in adiffernt shirt read.variety of religous exp.,not god you sound like hank parkhusrst in his last days 1951 pennington nj
@MrJJKRN Oh hold on this guy's evil too, and for what? Not agreeing with AA, or you. Anything else we are not allowed to think or any other conclusions we might reach about something that might lead you to labelling us "pure evil"? Thanks in advance for the heads up. Take care now. James G
Its more to do with discipline and how you handle problems....I dont believe in the addictive personality thing. You can quit if you really want to. One other aspect is to address the actual cause of the problem and not to label people.
People who have addiction problems have addictive personalities. We need to find the genes which cause this. Maybe we have , I dont know. Regardless , human beings will long continue to have a need to get out of their minds at least occasionialy. Just my thoughts, im not being militant about it.
Heroin addiction is real and it takes over your life. When you try to go turkey the dealers post it through your door. You steal and lie to family and friends. Whatever you can sell to buy a bag is ok. You sell meth, cos it does not do what you want ie the ritual of getting stuff together. yes you could make it legal? it would stop a lot of criminal activity?
What Christian Fundamentalism of the 12 step approach? AA works for me and I am agnostic. Sure there are scary words like "God" in the text of the books, but my American currency states "In God We Trust". This doesn't make me think I have to believe in God to use money. With respect sir, no one ever said that AA is THE solution. It is a suggested solution among many and can be combined with others to help people out of the agony that is addiction.
In addiction,the drug hijacks the survival heirarchy and is so close to actual survival that it is indistinguishable from actual survival . It affects the midbrain(Limbic system) . The mind brain regulates things such as eating-sex-kill for survival therefore it is unconsious and there is no free will.
In addiction,the drug hijacks the survival heirarchy and is so close to actual survival that it is indistinguishable from actual survival . It affects the midbrain(Limbic system) . The mind brain regulates things such as eating-sex-kill for survival therefore it is unconsious and there is no free will.
In addiction,the drug hijacks the survival heirarchy and is so close to actual survival that it is indistinguishable from actual survival . It affects the midbrain(Limbic system) . The mind brain regulates things such as eating-sex-kill for survival therefore it is unconsious and there is no free will.
neb22 - exactly. What's funny is I bet this guy was the only person in the room, just talking out loud to himself and pretend he was somebody. I don't take him seriously, nor others who say aa is a cult or whatever. Look, I can make any "program" or "belief system" work, or not work. If you show up to aa or anywhere looking for excuses as to why it won't work for you, it won't.
"Look, I can make any "program" or "belief system" work, or not work. If you show up to aa or anywhere looking for excuses as to why it won't work for you, it won't."
So what you are saying is that if you believe that you can stay sober by standing on your head fro one hour a day, then you will stay sober...?
neb22 - exactly. What's funny is I bet this guy was the only person in the room, just talking out loud to himself and pretend he was somebody. I don't take him seriously, nor others who say aa is a cult or whatever. Look, I can make any "program" or "belief system" work, or not work. If you show up to aa or anywhere looking for excuses as to why it won't work for you, it won't.
As far as legalization , well , as long as they are taking the drugs in their own home and they are not causing problem(or causing harm to anyone else) to me it's their own buisiness.
"as long as they are taking the drugs in their own home and they are not causing problem(or causing harm to anyone else) to me it's their own buisiness."
REALLY?
As simple as that?
And their children who don't receive adequate parenting thus creating "knock on" societal problems?
Hammerslay , did you ever consider looking thing up before embarassing yourself repeatedly ? I guess not . It is funny when all you had to do was a simple search . Now you look like an ass , again .
Have you ever thought of actually reading the comments and thinking before you post?
You're puny intellect still cant grasp the difference between adverse withdrawal symptoms and PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL ADDICTION. Do you know what "psycho-emotional" means?
You don't get it, do you?
It's simply beyond you...
(Wait for it readers: Pipe Boy is going to embarrass himself again with another list of WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS and stress "how dangerous" they are. HE IS A SPECIAL BOY ISN'T HE?)
I just got through reading you extensive "cut and paste" personal message.
I have concluded that you have conceptual difficulties and cant grasp the simple distinction between "withdrawal symptoms" and "addiction".
Consequently, you continue to embarrass yourself by posting comments such as:
"did you ever consider looking thing up before embarassing yourself repeatedly ? I guess not . It is funny when all you had to do was a simple search . Now you look like an ass , again ."
And continue to send me your inane lists of withdrawal symptoms as if they were "evidence" of addiction..
Just to clarify, Tripe Boy, I know about the drug and its properties. The "simple search" was done well before I conversed with you on this thread as is CLEARLY EVIDENCED in my comments (3 5) below.
(Is the detail and big words a bit much for you?)
The problem here is YOUR ignorance and lack of intelligence.
When a person is treated for heroin addiction, there is initially a period of detoxification (or withdrawal). As the opiate leaves the body, the upset physiological homeostasis of the body (due to the chronic use of heroin) begins to return to normal. As this occurs, unpleasant physiological, and sometimes even neurologically motivated psychological, symptoms can occur - such as hot/cold flushes, restless legs, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, stomach aches, irritability, muscle cramps, etc.
This is the short term unpleasant somatic (and to a much lesser extent psychological) effects of the physiological homeostasis returning to a normal, non-opiate affected equilibrium. It is "the same" phenomenon (albeit with a differing subset of symptoms) as SSRI WITHDRAWAL SYNDROME.
However, it is well known that there is an obsessive, compulsive, psycho-emotional craving for the said drug that persists well after the conclusion of detoxification and withdrawal.
In fact, the vast majority of addiction treatment, whether it is delivered by psychiatric therapy, 12 step, residential rehabilitation, or generic medical practice, is dedicated to THIS persistent phenomenon. Indeed, sometimes treatment for this psychoemotional phenomenon is required for weeks, months, years, and even decades after withdrawal.
WHY? Because THIS is what addiction is THE ONGOING CHRONIC PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL CRAVING FOR A DRUG DESPITE THE KNOWN DETRIMENTAL CONSEQUENCES...
This is what qualifies a drug as "ADDICTIVE" - not the mere fact that withdrawal symptoms occur upon cessation of use.
Persistent psycho-emotional craving DOES NOT - REPEAT DOES NOT - occur after withdrawal (albeit very dangerous) from Effexor has been completed. THAT is why Effexor was marketed as non-addictive.
The problem that the FDA has with it is its dangerous and difficult withdrawal properties - not psycho-emotional dependency...
Like the true moron that you are, make sure that all this will go goes right over your head and start posting your ludicrous lists of "withdrawal symptoms"...
Even better, why don'y you REALLY make a fool of yourself by telling me to do another "simple search"...
SILLY FELLA!!!
BTW: Im still waiting for the medical evidence that supports your erroneous claim that Effexor is addictive (not "habit forming" or "withdrawal syndrome").
However, I'll give you this much - to your "credit", in one of your personal messages you DID provide a link to a (laughable) PDF article by Stephen P Melek. Nonetheless, the guy makes some astoundingly obtuse errors of category.
"Yes, antidepressants such as Paxil can create both dependence and addiction. Patients ... can become dependent, where stopping the drug abruptly causes a debilitating withdrawal reaction. And they become addicted, developing tolerance to antidepressants and the need for higher and higher doses for effectiveness."
Stephen P Melek
(June 2007)
Do you see the fundamental error of category there? He equates "dependency" with "withdrawal reaction" and "addiction" with "tolerance"...
Actually your definition of addiction is debatable . I would define addiction as physical dependence period . Psychological conditions from stopping using a substance are not really addiction . You could be addicted to television then or video games . This would mean your comments about anti-depressants not being addictive a contradiction because you could be addicted to anything , including the act of swallowing a pill like paxil . You can't have it both ways .
"I would define addiction as physical dependence period"
Absolute verbal and conceptual refuse...
Then according to that definition, we are all addicted to every non-intoxicating (no cognitive distortion whatsoever) drug on the market including that causes withdrawal symptoms - including Sodium Valporate and Carbamazepine.
Indeed you could claim that we are all addicted to Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) for we all contract the withdrawal symptoms (easily bruising, gum and dental problems, dry hair and skin, anaemia, and feel tired, weak, and irritable) when withdrawn from the substance.
Do you see where your silly little definition is going if we draw it out to its logical conclusion?
"Psychological conditions from stopping using a substance are not really addiction"
Not "psychological conditions" - a specific PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL CONDITION chararcterised by obsession, compulsion and CRAVING - despite the KNOWN detrimental consequences.
"You could be addicted to television then or video games"
Now you're starting to get it...
But not quite...
You CAN be addicted to ANYTHING - a long as there is a depreciation in one's life circumstances due to the continued engagement in the substance or PROCESS, despite the KNOW DETRIMENTAL CONSEQUENCES.
THAT'S why we have treatment for gambling, food, and sex addiction.
"This would mean your comments about anti-depressants not being addictive a contradiction because you could be addicted to anything , including the act of swallowing a pill like paxil . You can't have it both ways ."
Yes, THEORETICALLY if upon cessation and withdrawal from this psychotropic medication, a persistent psycho-emotionally borne CRAVING for the drug ensued, then one could say with certainty that the drug is addictive FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL.
Moreover, if there was a high rate of this phenomenon, then you could say that the drug is addictive - period.
But where is the medical and/or psychiatric evidence that upon cessation and withdrawal from this psychotropic medication, a persistent psycho-emotionally borne CRAVING for the drug ensues?
I asked you to provide it so far youve you shown me fuck all...
Tripe Boy, 14 years ago I stopped using heroin after being addicted to it for 10 years. I subsequently used Sodium Valproate for convulsions for 5 years.
When I came of the medication, I felt like a zombie and experienced a fast heart rate, excessive sweating, and a tremor of the hands for about 3 weeks after finally stopping altogether.
Was I addicted?
No Pipey, I was not... I KNOW what addiction is, and that aint it...
It is very telling what is written on the "Coming Off Psychiatric Medication" website about "withdrawals" from Sodium Valproate.
I quote:
"the term withdrawal is usually associated with coming off drugs to which an individual is addicted to, when an individual comes off Sodium Valproate THEY ARE NOT ADDICTED TO THE DRUG, THEY DO NOT CONSCIOUSLY CRAVE THE DRUG"
Perhaps you are a bit simple minded but , you say anti-depressants are not addictive because addiction is not physical ? It is a compulsion , but someone could not possibly have a compulsion to take medicine ? Hmmm nice try Forrest , but life is not like a box of chocolates . Your theory has hit a wall . Anti-depressant are considered addictive by their manufactures , doctors(some) , and now our legal system agrees . They awarded money to patients not warned about physical addiction to Paxil .
Anti-depressants create dependence, not addiction--you do not crave the drug although you have physical withdrawal symptoms. To the best of my knowledge this is one of the accepted medical definitions of addiction if not THE accepted definition (and no I'm not going to google it). Anyway, a good vid IMHO and everyone have a nice day!
Hammersley1967: Not sure what your argument is exactly. I don't really much care I guess. If big pharm had to pay I'm all for it. My point was yours as far as I'm concerned: an addiction is not the same as a dependence. I don't feel like starting a pissing contest over what a craving is.
I suppose it must be interesting to crave your own crotch, you should right a self help for self obsessed crotch eaters, I am sure you can doing something with your cults 12 steps.
You are powerless over eating your own crotch, you have a disease.
I did notice that you went right to clowning rather than answer the question put to you as to why your REQUIRE a disease that others must dies so you can be right?
In case you were too stupid to catch it we are all clean here, it appears with your commentary you are either stink drunk or you have wasted your time getting clean, YOU ARE STILL AN ASSHOLE.
Did you know that alchoholics who quit drinking and go to AA have a suicide rate 5 times higher than those who quit on their own ? AA only works if you have a very limited intellectual capabilities and accept idealogy even if it is nonsensical . Drinking is a voluntary behavior , not a disease .
moderation and social drinkign use to be good fun for me ,.til it al went wrong,.i been goign aa now for over 10 years as my medicine,.i hate going and i listen to such silly stuff ,.i agree there has to be some other alternatives beides the narcissist guys u hear there,. oh they never or rarely ask me to do the chair.,.i feel frowned on by the real cult tyoes ther e,.i guess they are jealous of my independence stylle approach,.
Good for you to recognize you need to stop doing something that is hurting you and others....and, yes, sure, it can be done outside the AA model....you just have to TRULY WANT TO STOP....and you will find a way.
Addictive pharmaceutical drugs like anti depresants are far more pushed unto people inappropriately--including 625 billion adolescents. The suicide rate from these drugs is incredibly high. People actually have the constitutional right to kill themselves with legal an unlegal drugs including alcohol. Interesting hnuh? Counselor and biomedical research engineer.
interesting ...? not really. where's the evidence that anti-depressant drugs are addictive? over-prescribed, for sure. but addictive? where's your sources?
reads to me like non-sequitir & inaccurate: perhaps you could direct me to the constitutional amendment that sanctions suicide or the supreme court decision that affirms that personal 'right'.
"Addictive pharmaceutical drugs like anti depresants"?
Addictive? Serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (the most common family of anti-depressant medication) are not addictive. If you think they are, then your have a fundamental MISUNDERSTANDING of addiction...
Yeah that might work on newcomers who don't know any better but not us. I bet this douche bag shows up to meetings in a rented benz wearing a doctors outfit he bought at the costume store.
Proof that people in AA always claim to be something they are not
"Yeah that might work on newcomers who don't know any better but not us. I bet this douche bag shows up to meetings in a rented benz wearing a doctors outfit he bought at the costume store."
Wow, I see you are very uneducated about anti depressants . They are highly addictive ! Effexor is not only addictive , but stopping it cold can KILL YOU . Even the literature that comes with them will tell you of severe withdrawal symptoms . I have never heard of a non addictive substance that causes severe withdrawals . Get some knowledge before making yourself look so stupid next time please . Paxil , Prozac , and Seroxat have all been proven addictive .
"Effexor is not only addictive , but stopping it cold can KILL YOU . Even the literature that comes with them will tell you of severe withdrawal symptoms . I have never heard of a non addictive substance that causes severe withdrawals."
Wow! I see that not only are you incredibly uneducated about these anti-depressant medications but also about the phenomenon of addiction in general!
Check the "Effexor Medicines Data Sheet" (Wyeth Pharmaceuticals Inc 2006) and you will find that in vitro studies revealed that venlafaxine (generic drug term for the brand name Effexor) has no affinity for opiate, benzodiazepine, or N-methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) receptors. It has no significant CNS stimulant activity in rodents. Moreover, in primate drug discrimination studies, venlafaxine showed no STIMULANT OR DEPRESSANT ABUSE LIABILITY.
Thus, the medication provides NO IMMEDIATE EUPHORIC EFFECT IN ITS DRUG ACTION. However, notwithstanding these findings, SOME patients who abruptly cease venlafaxine use experience SSRI discontinuation syndrome . This is especially noted if a patient misses a dose, but can also occur when dosage is reduced. The high risk of discontinuation syndrome symptoms merely reflects venlafaxine's short half-life. Missing even a single dose can induce discontinuation effects in some patients.
And yes, this discontinuation syndrome can also occur in regards to those SSRIs that you listed - Paxil, Prozac, and Seroxat. But does this mean that they are "proven addictive"?
This brings to light your UTTER IGNORANCE of the PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL phenomenon of "ADDICTION". Any physician will tell you, in NO uncertain terms, that addiction does NOT merely equate to "unpleasant withdrawal symptoms".
Hence, if there is NO IMMEDIATE EUPHORIC EFFECT IN DRUG ACTION, then how can there be a psychological reinforcement (based on the expectancy of that immediate euphoric effect) be established?
In other words, if there is no IMMEDIATE EUPHORIC EFFECT, then what is there to EXPECT and CRAVE?
In short, THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS NO - REPEAT NO - EVIDENCE OF THIS ANTIDEPRESSANT MEDICATION BEING ADDICTIVE.
THE VERY CONTENTION IS MEDICALLY AND PSYCHIATRICALLY ABSURD.
If you have ANY medical evidence to the contrary (that is, even ONE peer reviewed medical article) that suggests otherwise, I would be very, very, interested in reading it...
Let's be quite clear about this - I invite and challenge you to find such ANY medical evidence that proves your scientifically UNFOUNDED contention that "Effexor, Paxil , Prozac, and Seroxat have all been proven ADDICTIVE."
(NOTE: We are using the term "ADDICTION" not "WITHDRAWAL SYNDROME" and not "HABIT FORMING".)
Oh, and Pipe Boy - "get some knowledge before making yourself look so stupid next time please"...
Arrogance founded on knowledge I don't mind. However, when its blended with the sheer ignorance that you displayed in this embarrassingly shameful comment - it's really not a good look...
Wow , you must be retarded , you could just read the insert "stopping the use of Effexor could cause serious risks to your health . Never stop taking Efexor without consuting your physician . Possible reactions include : headache , nausea , dizzyness , feelings of electric shock , anxiety , mood swings , seizure , convulsion ......and it keeps on going . There is a class action suit over the deaths it has caused and look up brain shivers another lovely thing effexor withdrawal causes .
I just posted an 8 part response outlining in detail that SSRI withdrawal syndrome IS NOT the PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL (not physical) phenomenon of addiction - characterized by the attributes of obsession, compulsion and above all CRAVING.
And what do you do? Respond with:
"headache , nausea , dizzyness , feelings of electric shock , anxiety , mood swings , seizure , convulsion"
Can you not read or are the words just a bit too big for you?
Funily enough, I considered suicide before I found AA, and since having worked the 12 Steps I've been given a new lease of life; a whole new postitive mental attitude.
Unfortunately with regards to the suicides in AA, I doubt you can blame AA for that. No-one becomes a member of AA because they're in a happy frame of mind; they come because they feel they've no-where else to turn.
All I can say is that I'm an extremely happy customer of AA.
Why would trusting virtual strangers, who have no training in counseling, being in a position of sponsoring the desperate & vulnerable, is a safe & reliable way to help people? How does constant attention to one's character defects, borne out of self will, help those with low self esteem? The disease model & the notion that alcoholism is caused by "character defects" are unfounded & they are of no use in helping people recover from their drinking problem.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
This is the problem..An alcoholic sincerely believes that everything BUT him is the problem! You cannot ask an alcoholic what he perceives is his problem because he doesn't know...
First FUCK YOU - and if I was retarded you would be just the asshole to pick on me huh? Big tough guy.
It was a simple question that was not even aimed at you but you are so self important that you have to spew your ignorance at me. If you were just a few points higher you might be able to read my comments.
ray - "while completely unscientific, we know from personal experience that it works".
so a certifiable public health problem with distinct social impact & costs should be trusted to a program that can't provide scientific evidence of efficacy & in fact has shown to be almost a complete failure when subjected to scientific study.
because from "personal experience it works". kind of like seances & astrological readings. yes, i see. it all makes perfect sense now ... .
It's hard be honest with someone who has a gun in your face. It's the burden of omnipotence - you can't force the truth ...and you can't force someone to heal.
Again, take my advice. Don't call us, we'll call you.
Generalities and euphamisms like these are so easy to work with as long as you're not doing anything.
Yes, I'm irate at being convicted for marijuana possession, but I view it as an opportunity to get to know myself better. Anger IS a gift. It not only tells you that your buttons got pushed, it points to where they are.
Yes, I'm irate that I can't drink like a gentleman, but I like my AA group AND I'm an atheist.
All beliefs are artificial. Master them and master your life.
If I didn't realize that you were trying to SELL ME SOMETHING, I'd think you were advocating nihilism.
"Beliefs are for people who do not like reality." What kind of cack is that? I'm not going to argue semantics with you. You obviously think "belief" implies something more than it really does.
I'm comfortable with living a contradiction. My world doesn't HAVE to make sense. It's not a math problem.
IF I wanted to heal, I'd come to you. Not the reverse.
Your "Better Question" presupposes that the individual accepts that s/he is an addict and is willing to take action. If this is the case, then the question itself is unnecessary.
I think SP is saying that it's more effective to let the individual conclude that s/he is addicted and decide on a goal (e.g. abstinence) rather than telling him or her that s/he's an addict and needs to quit.
I think his methods are more suited to "high bottoms" than are support groups like SOS and AA. We need more ways to help people who are experiencing problems but for whom meetings, programs, etc. would seem like overkill. To work the AA program or to use SOS's cognitive strategy one needs to acknowledge one's alcoholism. SP's methods seem like a good alternative for those who aren't ready to do so, perhaps because they are in the "problem drinker"/alcoholic gray area.
What exactly is this guy a doctor of. Billions of dollars are spent on researching addiction, spread globally between thousands of scientists, universities, health facilities, resulting in the present treatment methods in which our societies have today. Yet this guy seems to think his theories/opinions unsupported are more suitable. Infact why am I wasting my time watching this crap and posting on it . . . this guys posts serve no good purpose other than to buffer his false ego
jadedjungle 2 months ago
i farted ... hehehhheheeeeehhhhhehe
nicklocicero 2 months ago
I think this guy is pretty smart and is in the right direction pertaining to drug and alcohol use or disuse.
jtelias81 5 months ago 3
Glad he clarified that, making note. Was wondering re: his views on withdrawal in other writings of his, as the problem with prescription opiates offers newer dimensions to the usual arguments, & 1 that the research shows (&, as he said also with antidepressants) 'withdrawal' from. Of course, the NA folks just say anyone who enjoyed painkillers for long term med treatment & had trouble getting off of them physically is the same as the heroin addict shooting up illegally, which is more absurd...
LexeconKiddo 5 months ago
Perhaps he is in denial, takes drugs and alcohol and wants to continue without anyone interfering. His permissive approach seems as if it would be ridiculously ineffective.
Di4545 6 months ago
@MrJJKRN
"his "harm reduction" program has been a absolute, total failure"
Agreed... But isn't that true of every treatment approach to alcoholism and addiction?
Do you know of even one treatment program that has achieved greater than a 50% longitudinal efficacy rate?
Where is the gold standard, cure-all treatment?
SHORT ANSWER: It doesn't exist... Most treatments (including AA) achieve an efficacy rate of less than 10%...
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@Hammersley1967 ONE OF THE SADDEST STORIES,YEARS AGO,I FORGET HER NAME,THIS WOMAN WHO STARTED A BIG GROUP OF THOSE THINKING THEY COULD MODERATELY DRINK,even though they sought help for drinkin,go figure,THAT WOMAN HIT AND KILLED A PERSON WHILE DRUNK,LATER,SO MUCH FOR MODERATION PEOPLE,THAT JERK WILL HAVE A DEAD CORPSE BEHIND HER EYES EVERY TIME HER LYING MOUTH OPENS,PRAY SHE SHUTS UPi
alezander666 7 months ago
Comment removed
Hammersley1967 7 months ago
@alezander666
(1)
The moderate drinking rationale stems from the psychologist D.L. Davies who published a long term study of 93 male alcoholics in 1962. Davies claimed to have found a number of previously diagnosed alcoholics who were able to moderate their drinking. Dr. Alan Marlatt, an alcoholism researcher from the University of Washington, cited this study article in the "American Psychologist" (the official journal of the American Psychologist Association) in 1983:
Continued in (2)
Hammersley1967 7 months ago
@alezander666
(2)
“Davies sent shock waves through the alcoholism field by publishing the results of a long-term follow-up of patients treated for alcoholism at the Maudsley Hospital in London. In his report, Davies challenged the traditional emphasis on total abstinence as the only viable “cure” for alcoholism by showing that of 93 male alcoholics who were followed up for a period of from 7 to 11 years following treatment, seven reported a pattern of normal drinking.” (Marlatt 1983)
Cont (3)
Hammersley1967 7 months ago
@alezander666
(3)
Unfortunately for Marlatt, two years after he published this article, another British researcher Griffith Edwards (1985) published a further follow-up of the patients described by D.L. Davies. As Edwards pointed out, of the seven men Davies categorized as normal drinkers, five were discovered to have resumed destructive drinking. Three of these five destructive drinkers were drinking non-normally even during the original follow-up by Davies who was unaware of this.
Cont. (4)
Hammersley1967 7 months ago
@alezander666
(4)
One of the seven men eventually experienced Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome, one was hospitalized with peptic ulcer and another experienced liver enlargement as a result of heavy drinking. Three of the seven men also used psychoactive drugs in addition to drinking heavily. Of the seven men only two of the entire sample of 93 men appeared to be drinking non-destructively in Edwards’ further follow-up.
Continued in (5)
Hammersley1967 7 months ago
@alezander666
(5)
However, one of these men was only slightly dependent on alcohol to begin with. In effect, only one man out of a sample of 93 men was drinking non-destructively in Edwards’ follow up. Marlatt can be forgiven for publishing his comments two years before Edwards published a disconfirmation of Davies’ claims, but I find it significant that Marlatt has not published a retraction, clarification or apology to members of the American Psychological Association for misinforming them.
Hammersley1967 7 months ago
What asshole is against A.A. if it stops alcoholism?
skolded1 9 months ago
@skolded1 3% success rate is hardly stopping heavy drinking!!
karmalevel 7 months ago 3
@karmalevel Exactly.
kevinfirstnamefinn 2 weeks ago
This guy is a Bolix.
53sean 11 months ago
Prohibition causes more problems than it solves!
and.....AA 12 steppers always attack viciously anyone who disagrees with their cult. That should be answer enough if youre thinking of going to AA/NA. Don't do it!
mrdubcrazy 11 months ago 2
Prohibition causes more problems than it solves!
mrdubcrazy 11 months ago
Men like this should be forced to live with the consequences of their opinions. He has resources to insulate himself from the mayhem he would spread , so would never be on the receiving end of the shit that would ensue from liberating "unstoppable" forces. He should be made to live next to a needle park. After a few muggings and rows with his grandkids because they wanted to go out, he may even discover the real world.
normskia9 1 year ago
wow you tell the same story just in adiffernt shirt read.variety of religous exp.,not god you sound like hank parkhusrst in his last days 1951 pennington nj
heartattackdon 1 year ago
Just legalize drugs.
lollipopfop 1 year ago 3
@MrJJKRN So people are evil if they have an opinion you don't share? oook. Aren't you a bit too sure of yourself?
lollipopfop 1 year ago
@MrJJKRN Oh hold on this guy's evil too, and for what? Not agreeing with AA, or you. Anything else we are not allowed to think or any other conclusions we might reach about something that might lead you to labelling us "pure evil"? Thanks in advance for the heads up. Take care now. James G
blamethenile 1 year ago
Its more to do with discipline and how you handle problems....I dont believe in the addictive personality thing. You can quit if you really want to. One other aspect is to address the actual cause of the problem and not to label people.
ramindsr 1 year ago
People who have addiction problems have addictive personalities. We need to find the genes which cause this. Maybe we have , I dont know. Regardless , human beings will long continue to have a need to get out of their minds at least occasionialy. Just my thoughts, im not being militant about it.
cullyvan 1 year ago
Heroin addiction is real and it takes over your life. When you try to go turkey the dealers post it through your door. You steal and lie to family and friends. Whatever you can sell to buy a bag is ok. You sell meth, cos it does not do what you want ie the ritual of getting stuff together. yes you could make it legal? it would stop a lot of criminal activity?
skycladwow 1 year ago
What Christian Fundamentalism of the 12 step approach? AA works for me and I am agnostic. Sure there are scary words like "God" in the text of the books, but my American currency states "In God We Trust". This doesn't make me think I have to believe in God to use money. With respect sir, no one ever said that AA is THE solution. It is a suggested solution among many and can be combined with others to help people out of the agony that is addiction.
kittensoxxy 1 year ago
This guy looks like he could use a hug!
Reddlyon 1 year ago
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In addiction,the drug hijacks the survival heirarchy and is so close to actual survival that it is indistinguishable from actual survival . It affects the midbrain(Limbic system) . The mind brain regulates things such as eating-sex-kill for survival therefore it is unconsious and there is no free will.
cetnikz 1 year ago
In addiction,the drug hijacks the survival heirarchy and is so close to actual survival that it is indistinguishable from actual survival . It affects the midbrain(Limbic system) . The mind brain regulates things such as eating-sex-kill for survival therefore it is unconsious and there is no free will.
cetnikz 1 year ago
In addiction,the drug hijacks the survival heirarchy and is so close to actual survival that it is indistinguishable from actual survival . It affects the midbrain(Limbic system) . The mind brain regulates things such as eating-sex-kill for survival therefore it is unconsious and there is no free will.
cetnikz 1 year ago
The only way to understand it is to have been there, what a bunch of childish pissing contest comments down below, waste of energy to address them.
MaCaHoliC52 1 year ago
I do agree completely though about what he says about lower key alternatives...
raycid74 1 year ago
I do agree completely though about what he says about lower key alternatives...
raycid74 1 year ago
This guy should be placed in a locked room for 60 days and fed heroin, then he would understand!!!!
MaCaHoliC52 1 year ago
@MaCaHoliC52 yea I agree, probably never even tried, meth, herion or coke.
raycid74 1 year ago
neb22 - exactly. What's funny is I bet this guy was the only person in the room, just talking out loud to himself and pretend he was somebody. I don't take him seriously, nor others who say aa is a cult or whatever. Look, I can make any "program" or "belief system" work, or not work. If you show up to aa or anywhere looking for excuses as to why it won't work for you, it won't.
echobeach26 1 year ago
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@echobeach26
"Look, I can make any "program" or "belief system" work, or not work. If you show up to aa or anywhere looking for excuses as to why it won't work for you, it won't."
So what you are saying is that if you believe that you can stay sober by standing on your head fro one hour a day, then you will stay sober...?
So,. AA as such, is irrelevant...
Therefore AA is faith healing...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
neb22 - exactly. What's funny is I bet this guy was the only person in the room, just talking out loud to himself and pretend he was somebody. I don't take him seriously, nor others who say aa is a cult or whatever. Look, I can make any "program" or "belief system" work, or not work. If you show up to aa or anywhere looking for excuses as to why it won't work for you, it won't.
echobeach26 1 year ago
and 1 star cos they don't have ZERO here....
kinakona 1 year ago
the aproach was no aproach ....ZERO for this video....go back to school!!!!!
kinakona 1 year ago
a better approach?
It was not cohesive and he made no sense.
ajruthsing 2 years ago
As far as legalization , well , as long as they are taking the drugs in their own home and they are not causing problem(or causing harm to anyone else) to me it's their own buisiness.
Christopher711 2 years ago
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@Christopher711
"as long as they are taking the drugs in their own home and they are not causing problem(or causing harm to anyone else) to me it's their own buisiness."
REALLY?
As simple as that?
And their children who don't receive adequate parenting thus creating "knock on" societal problems?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
CBT, client centered, helpful, resourceful, open ended, good video.
simplicity135 2 years ago
Hammerslay , did you ever consider looking thing up before embarassing yourself repeatedly ? I guess not . It is funny when all you had to do was a simple search . Now you look like an ass , again .
thesepipesRclean 2 years ago
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Pipe Boy,
Have you ever thought of actually reading the comments and thinking before you post?
You're puny intellect still cant grasp the difference between adverse withdrawal symptoms and PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL ADDICTION. Do you know what "psycho-emotional" means?
You don't get it, do you?
It's simply beyond you...
(Wait for it readers: Pipe Boy is going to embarrass himself again with another list of WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS and stress "how dangerous" they are. HE IS A SPECIAL BOY ISN'T HE?)
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[i]
PIPE BOY:
I just got through reading you extensive "cut and paste" personal message.
I have concluded that you have conceptual difficulties and cant grasp the simple distinction between "withdrawal symptoms" and "addiction".
Consequently, you continue to embarrass yourself by posting comments such as:
"did you ever consider looking thing up before embarassing yourself repeatedly ? I guess not . It is funny when all you had to do was a simple search . Now you look like an ass , again ."
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[ii]
And continue to send me your inane lists of withdrawal symptoms as if they were "evidence" of addiction..
Just to clarify, Tripe Boy, I know about the drug and its properties. The "simple search" was done well before I conversed with you on this thread as is CLEARLY EVIDENCED in my comments (3 5) below.
(Is the detail and big words a bit much for you?)
The problem here is YOUR ignorance and lack of intelligence.
I will TRY to educate you.
Lets take the example of heroin addiction.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[iii]
When a person is treated for heroin addiction, there is initially a period of detoxification (or withdrawal). As the opiate leaves the body, the upset physiological homeostasis of the body (due to the chronic use of heroin) begins to return to normal. As this occurs, unpleasant physiological, and sometimes even neurologically motivated psychological, symptoms can occur - such as hot/cold flushes, restless legs, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, stomach aches, irritability, muscle cramps, etc.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[iv]
This is the short term unpleasant somatic (and to a much lesser extent psychological) effects of the physiological homeostasis returning to a normal, non-opiate affected equilibrium. It is "the same" phenomenon (albeit with a differing subset of symptoms) as SSRI WITHDRAWAL SYNDROME.
However, it is well known that there is an obsessive, compulsive, psycho-emotional craving for the said drug that persists well after the conclusion of detoxification and withdrawal.
THIS IS ADDICTION!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[v]
In fact, the vast majority of addiction treatment, whether it is delivered by psychiatric therapy, 12 step, residential rehabilitation, or generic medical practice, is dedicated to THIS persistent phenomenon. Indeed, sometimes treatment for this psychoemotional phenomenon is required for weeks, months, years, and even decades after withdrawal.
WHY? Because THIS is what addiction is THE ONGOING CHRONIC PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL CRAVING FOR A DRUG DESPITE THE KNOWN DETRIMENTAL CONSEQUENCES...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[vi]
This is what qualifies a drug as "ADDICTIVE" - not the mere fact that withdrawal symptoms occur upon cessation of use.
Persistent psycho-emotional craving DOES NOT - REPEAT DOES NOT - occur after withdrawal (albeit very dangerous) from Effexor has been completed. THAT is why Effexor was marketed as non-addictive.
The problem that the FDA has with it is its dangerous and difficult withdrawal properties - not psycho-emotional dependency...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[vii]
Mere difficult and dangerous withdrawal can occur with many drugs that are NOT addictive (eg Sodium Valporate and Carbamazepine).
You have a FUNDAMENTAL MISUNDERSTANDING of the concept of addiction.
I made all this VERY CLEAR in my initial 8 part response to your silly comment.
I notice that you STILL have not risen to my challenge to you to provide evidence for your fallacious claims that Effexor is addictive.
Your tiresome lists of withdrawal symptoms are ridiculous and irrelevant.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[viii]
Go on Tripe Boy, dont let us all down...
Like the true moron that you are, make sure that all this will go goes right over your head and start posting your ludicrous lists of "withdrawal symptoms"...
Even better, why don'y you REALLY make a fool of yourself by telling me to do another "simple search"...
SILLY FELLA!!!
BTW: Im still waiting for the medical evidence that supports your erroneous claim that Effexor is addictive (not "habit forming" or "withdrawal syndrome").
*YAWN*
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
(a)
However, I'll give you this much - to your "credit", in one of your personal messages you DID provide a link to a (laughable) PDF article by Stephen P Melek. Nonetheless, the guy makes some astoundingly obtuse errors of category.
I quote:
[CONTINUED IN (b)]
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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(b)
"Yes, antidepressants such as Paxil can create both dependence and addiction. Patients ... can become dependent, where stopping the drug abruptly causes a debilitating withdrawal reaction. And they become addicted, developing tolerance to antidepressants and the need for higher and higher doses for effectiveness."
Stephen P Melek
(June 2007)
Do you see the fundamental error of category there? He equates "dependency" with "withdrawal reaction" and "addiction" with "tolerance"...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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(c)
Not one mention of any psycho-emotional dynamics and/or cravings thereof.
Quite simply, if there's no psycho-emotional dimension and no craving, then there is no addiction.
And yet this idiot Melek bandies about the word "addiction" as if he knows with certainty what it means. It is starkly obvious that he does not.
If these are the bumbling light weights that you've been relying on for your knowledge, then its little wonder that you have become so confused...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Actually your definition of addiction is debatable . I would define addiction as physical dependence period . Psychological conditions from stopping using a substance are not really addiction . You could be addicted to television then or video games . This would mean your comments about anti-depressants not being addictive a contradiction because you could be addicted to anything , including the act of swallowing a pill like paxil . You can't have it both ways .
thesepipesRclean 2 years ago
[A]
"I would define addiction as physical dependence period"
Absolute verbal and conceptual refuse...
Then according to that definition, we are all addicted to every non-intoxicating (no cognitive distortion whatsoever) drug on the market including that causes withdrawal symptoms - including Sodium Valporate and Carbamazepine.
Absolute twaddle!
Think it through dummy!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[B]
Indeed you could claim that we are all addicted to Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) for we all contract the withdrawal symptoms (easily bruising, gum and dental problems, dry hair and skin, anaemia, and feel tired, weak, and irritable) when withdrawn from the substance.
Do you see where your silly little definition is going if we draw it out to its logical conclusion?
Its all getting a bit silly now isn't it?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
"Psychological conditions from stopping using a substance are not really addiction"
Not "psychological conditions" - a specific PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL CONDITION chararcterised by obsession, compulsion and CRAVING - despite the KNOWN detrimental consequences.
Are we catching on yet?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
(I)
"You could be addicted to television then or video games"
Now you're starting to get it...
But not quite...
You CAN be addicted to ANYTHING - a long as there is a depreciation in one's life circumstances due to the continued engagement in the substance or PROCESS, despite the KNOW DETRIMENTAL CONSEQUENCES.
THAT'S why we have treatment for gambling, food, and sex addiction.
Have you noticed that?
It's not THAT complicated is it?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
(II)
"This would mean your comments about anti-depressants not being addictive a contradiction because you could be addicted to anything , including the act of swallowing a pill like paxil . You can't have it both ways ."
Yes, THEORETICALLY if upon cessation and withdrawal from this psychotropic medication, a persistent psycho-emotionally borne CRAVING for the drug ensued, then one could say with certainty that the drug is addictive FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
(III)
Moreover, if there was a high rate of this phenomenon, then you could say that the drug is addictive - period.
But where is the medical and/or psychiatric evidence that upon cessation and withdrawal from this psychotropic medication, a persistent psycho-emotionally borne CRAVING for the drug ensues?
I asked you to provide it so far youve you shown me fuck all...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
(IV)
Tripe Boy, 14 years ago I stopped using heroin after being addicted to it for 10 years. I subsequently used Sodium Valproate for convulsions for 5 years.
When I came of the medication, I felt like a zombie and experienced a fast heart rate, excessive sweating, and a tremor of the hands for about 3 weeks after finally stopping altogether.
Was I addicted?
No Pipey, I was not... I KNOW what addiction is, and that aint it...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
(V)
It is very telling what is written on the "Coming Off Psychiatric Medication" website about "withdrawals" from Sodium Valproate.
I quote:
"the term withdrawal is usually associated with coming off drugs to which an individual is addicted to, when an individual comes off Sodium Valproate THEY ARE NOT ADDICTED TO THE DRUG, THEY DO NOT CONSCIOUSLY CRAVE THE DRUG"
Get it?
You're done like a dinner...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Perhaps you are a bit simple minded but , you say anti-depressants are not addictive because addiction is not physical ? It is a compulsion , but someone could not possibly have a compulsion to take medicine ? Hmmm nice try Forrest , but life is not like a box of chocolates . Your theory has hit a wall . Anti-depressant are considered addictive by their manufactures , doctors(some) , and now our legal system agrees . They awarded money to patients not warned about physical addiction to Paxil .
thesepipesRclean 2 years ago
"They awarded money to patients not warned about physical addiction to Paxil ."
And Michael Jackson settled out of court...
Your point is?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Anti-depressants create dependence, not addiction--you do not crave the drug although you have physical withdrawal symptoms. To the best of my knowledge this is one of the accepted medical definitions of addiction if not THE accepted definition (and no I'm not going to google it). Anyway, a good vid IMHO and everyone have a nice day!
MrJackshuman 2 years ago
"Anti-depressants create dependence, not addiction - you do not crave the drug although you have physical withdrawal symptoms."
Yes...
"To the best of my knowledge this is one of the accepted medical definitions of addiction if not THE accepted definition"
No...
The phenomenon of "craving" is central to the medical and psychiatric definition/s...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Hammersley1967: Not sure what your argument is exactly. I don't really much care I guess. If big pharm had to pay I'm all for it. My point was yours as far as I'm concerned: an addiction is not the same as a dependence. I don't feel like starting a pissing contest over what a craving is.
MrJackshuman 2 years ago
"addiction is not the same as a dependence."
That's my argument!
"I don't feel like starting a pissing contest over what a craving is."
That's the problem with the whole addiction vs dependence vs physiology vs psychology vs disease debate...
The nature of craving...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Craving is for pussies
isegoria1 2 years ago
And fags...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Hey for the record I got nothing against gays and the such
Some people like chocolate bananas, I don't
isegoria1 2 years ago
LOL
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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I crave pussy on a regular basis...
TheYoRomeo 2 years ago
I suppose it must be interesting to crave your own crotch, you should right a self help for self obsessed crotch eaters, I am sure you can doing something with your cults 12 steps.
You are powerless over eating your own crotch, you have a disease.
isegoria1 2 years ago 4
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Didn't Mommy and Daddy ever have that little talk with you, douchebag?
Women have vaginas. Men have penises.
I am a man.
Go look it up in a medical book, Corky.
TheYoRomeo 2 years ago
Hey there quickcap or who ever the fuck you are this week. So many sock puppets and so little time
Like your previous incantation completely and totally wrong with every post you make
Where is your non front group source wise ass?
isegoria1 2 years ago 2
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I'm not a sock puppet, you paranoid douchebag! Go look on the "Alcoholism is Not a Disease" thread for 9 sources I have posted.
TheYoRomeo 2 years ago
Adhom thank for letting me win
isegoria1 2 years ago 5
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LOL!
You've been attacking my charater from the start! You don't win jack shit.
TheYoRomeo 2 years ago
And your opinion of me matters how?
I did notice that you went right to clowning rather than answer the question put to you as to why your REQUIRE a disease that others must dies so you can be right?
In case you were too stupid to catch it we are all clean here, it appears with your commentary you are either stink drunk or you have wasted your time getting clean, YOU ARE STILL AN ASSHOLE.
isegoria1 2 years ago 4
You have no "charater"
Nice spelling I like it when you tards get mad, you misspell like its going out of style.
isegoria1 2 years ago 2
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It's called a typo, fuckhead.
I never claimed to be a genius.
Attacking my spelling and grammar doesn't dispute my facts. It's just something you can latch onto to avoid disproving the facts I have presented.
It's cute how all of my other posts were voted off this thread by you and your little hate cult.
You left the one where I mispelled character so you would have something to attack me on.
Am I right?
Of course I am.
Yo.
TheYoRomeo 2 years ago
Who's the little hate cult? I don't see anyone spouting poison on any pro-step videos?
godlessweasel 2 years ago 3
Puppet or mindless repeating muppet
justanotherface123 2 years ago 8
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Hi Ho, Kermit the Frog here...
Alcoholism is a disease.
:P
TheYoRomeo 2 years ago
That is about as believable as it would be coming from Sooty, Kermit
godlessweasel 2 years ago 2
@justanotherface123 What are you talking about?
kevinfirstnamefinn 2 weeks ago
@justanotherface123 What do you mean?
Andrewsuber 1 week ago
Did you know that alchoholics who quit drinking and go to AA have a suicide rate 5 times higher than those who quit on their own ? AA only works if you have a very limited intellectual capabilities and accept idealogy even if it is nonsensical . Drinking is a voluntary behavior , not a disease .
thesepipesRclean 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Ya, this guy is a drunk. He is funny to me. Everything is about perception. Everything!
musicloveyes 2 years ago
moderation and social drinkign use to be good fun for me ,.til it al went wrong,.i been goign aa now for over 10 years as my medicine,.i hate going and i listen to such silly stuff ,.i agree there has to be some other alternatives beides the narcissist guys u hear there,. oh they never or rarely ask me to do the chair.,.i feel frowned on by the real cult tyoes ther e,.i guess they are jealous of my independence stylle approach,.
suirvale 2 years ago
Good for you to recognize you need to stop doing something that is hurting you and others....and, yes, sure, it can be done outside the AA model....you just have to TRULY WANT TO STOP....and you will find a way.
eldiran2 2 years ago
Addictive pharmaceutical drugs like anti depresants are far more pushed unto people inappropriately--including 625 billion adolescents. The suicide rate from these drugs is incredibly high. People actually have the constitutional right to kill themselves with legal an unlegal drugs including alcohol. Interesting hnuh? Counselor and biomedical research engineer.
dillardmichael 2 years ago
interesting ...? not really. where's the evidence that anti-depressant drugs are addictive? over-prescribed, for sure. but addictive? where's your sources?
reads to me like non-sequitir & inaccurate: perhaps you could direct me to the constitutional amendment that sanctions suicide or the supreme court decision that affirms that personal 'right'.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago 2
"Addictive pharmaceutical drugs like anti depresants"?
Addictive? Serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (the most common family of anti-depressant medication) are not addictive. If you think they are, then your have a fundamental MISUNDERSTANDING of addiction...
"Counselor and biomedical research engineer."?
SURE YOU ARE...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago 3
"Counselor and biomedical research engineer."
Yeah that might work on newcomers who don't know any better but not us. I bet this douche bag shows up to meetings in a rented benz wearing a doctors outfit he bought at the costume store.
Proof that people in AA always claim to be something they are not
OraleNesto 2 years ago 3
"Yeah that might work on newcomers who don't know any better but not us. I bet this douche bag shows up to meetings in a rented benz wearing a doctors outfit he bought at the costume store."
...with a dildo stuffed down his undies!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
That's not proof at all. That's a wildly presumptuous idea that you concocted in your own twisted head.
Nice attempt at being witty, though. I can appreciate the effort.
chinesefiredrill2 2 years ago
Wow, I see you are very uneducated about anti depressants . They are highly addictive ! Effexor is not only addictive , but stopping it cold can KILL YOU . Even the literature that comes with them will tell you of severe withdrawal symptoms . I have never heard of a non addictive substance that causes severe withdrawals . Get some knowledge before making yourself look so stupid next time please . Paxil , Prozac , and Seroxat have all been proven addictive .
thesepipesRclean 2 years ago
[1]
"Effexor is not only addictive , but stopping it cold can KILL YOU . Even the literature that comes with them will tell you of severe withdrawal symptoms . I have never heard of a non addictive substance that causes severe withdrawals."
Wow! I see that not only are you incredibly uneducated about these anti-depressant medications but also about the phenomenon of addiction in general!
Where do I start?
How about at the beginning...?
Here cometh the lesson...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[2]
Check the "Effexor Medicines Data Sheet" (Wyeth Pharmaceuticals Inc 2006) and you will find that in vitro studies revealed that venlafaxine (generic drug term for the brand name Effexor) has no affinity for opiate, benzodiazepine, or N-methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) receptors. It has no significant CNS stimulant activity in rodents. Moreover, in primate drug discrimination studies, venlafaxine showed no STIMULANT OR DEPRESSANT ABUSE LIABILITY.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[3]
Thus, the medication provides NO IMMEDIATE EUPHORIC EFFECT IN ITS DRUG ACTION. However, notwithstanding these findings, SOME patients who abruptly cease venlafaxine use experience SSRI discontinuation syndrome . This is especially noted if a patient misses a dose, but can also occur when dosage is reduced. The high risk of discontinuation syndrome symptoms merely reflects venlafaxine's short half-life. Missing even a single dose can induce discontinuation effects in some patients.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[4]
And yes, this discontinuation syndrome can also occur in regards to those SSRIs that you listed - Paxil, Prozac, and Seroxat. But does this mean that they are "proven addictive"?
This brings to light your UTTER IGNORANCE of the PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL phenomenon of "ADDICTION". Any physician will tell you, in NO uncertain terms, that addiction does NOT merely equate to "unpleasant withdrawal symptoms".
SSRI discontinuation syndrome IS NOT ADDICTION.
Your ideation of addiction is inaccurate...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[5]
There are many drugs, such as Epilim (Sodium Valporate) and Tegratatol (Carbamazepine), that cause adverse withdrawal symptoms upon cessation of use.
And yet these drugs are NOT medically nor psychiatrically classified as "drugs of addiction" (and incidentally, neither are SSRIs).
Why? Because "addiction", is a psycho-emotional experience marked by obsession, compulsion, and above all, CRAVING...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[6]
Hence, if there is NO IMMEDIATE EUPHORIC EFFECT IN DRUG ACTION, then how can there be a psychological reinforcement (based on the expectancy of that immediate euphoric effect) be established?
In other words, if there is no IMMEDIATE EUPHORIC EFFECT, then what is there to EXPECT and CRAVE?
In short, THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS NO - REPEAT NO - EVIDENCE OF THIS ANTIDEPRESSANT MEDICATION BEING ADDICTIVE.
THE VERY CONTENTION IS MEDICALLY AND PSYCHIATRICALLY ABSURD.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[7]
If you have ANY medical evidence to the contrary (that is, even ONE peer reviewed medical article) that suggests otherwise, I would be very, very, interested in reading it...
Let's be quite clear about this - I invite and challenge you to find such ANY medical evidence that proves your scientifically UNFOUNDED contention that "Effexor, Paxil , Prozac, and Seroxat have all been proven ADDICTIVE."
(NOTE: We are using the term "ADDICTION" not "WITHDRAWAL SYNDROME" and not "HABIT FORMING".)
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[8]
Get it now?
Here endeth the lesson...
Oh, and Pipe Boy - "get some knowledge before making yourself look so stupid next time please"...
Arrogance founded on knowledge I don't mind. However, when its blended with the sheer ignorance that you displayed in this embarrassingly shameful comment - it's really not a good look...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Wow , you must be retarded , you could just read the insert "stopping the use of Effexor could cause serious risks to your health . Never stop taking Efexor without consuting your physician . Possible reactions include : headache , nausea , dizzyness , feelings of electric shock , anxiety , mood swings , seizure , convulsion ......and it keeps on going . There is a class action suit over the deaths it has caused and look up brain shivers another lovely thing effexor withdrawal causes .
thesepipesRclean 2 years ago
Wow! YOU must be retarded!
I just posted an 8 part response outlining in detail that SSRI withdrawal syndrome IS NOT the PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL (not physical) phenomenon of addiction - characterized by the attributes of obsession, compulsion and above all CRAVING.
And what do you do? Respond with:
"headache , nausea , dizzyness , feelings of electric shock , anxiety , mood swings , seizure , convulsion"
Can you not read or are the words just a bit too big for you?
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
'The suicide rate from these drugs is incredibly high'.
the suicide rate in AA is incredibly high too
jonslaterhome 2 years ago
Funily enough, I considered suicide before I found AA, and since having worked the 12 Steps I've been given a new lease of life; a whole new postitive mental attitude.
Unfortunately with regards to the suicides in AA, I doubt you can blame AA for that. No-one becomes a member of AA because they're in a happy frame of mind; they come because they feel they've no-where else to turn.
All I can say is that I'm an extremely happy customer of AA.
toshisba 2 years ago
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this guys a fucking idiot
countlesscorpses 3 years ago
Why would trusting virtual strangers, who have no training in counseling, being in a position of sponsoring the desperate & vulnerable, is a safe & reliable way to help people? How does constant attention to one's character defects, borne out of self will, help those with low self esteem? The disease model & the notion that alcoholism is caused by "character defects" are unfounded & they are of no use in helping people recover from their drinking problem.
Yoganao 3 years ago 2
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This is the problem..An alcoholic sincerely believes that everything BUT him is the problem! You cannot ask an alcoholic what he perceives is his problem because he doesn't know...
deirdrec1 3 years ago
Nice anti-thought analogy but still
FAIL
isegoria1 3 years ago 4
Rather like a slug trying to understand what makes a butterfly..
deirdrec1 3 years ago
??????????????????????
isegoria1 3 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
isegoria, what's your deal? Are you a retard? You just post stupid comments that don't mean anything. If you have something to say, say it.
joedigits 3 years ago
First FUCK YOU - and if I was retarded you would be just the asshole to pick on me huh? Big tough guy.
It was a simple question that was not even aimed at you but you are so self important that you have to spew your ignorance at me. If you were just a few points higher you might be able to read my comments.
isegoria1 3 years ago 4
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raytownloc 3 years ago
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rayrainieri 3 years ago
ray - "while completely unscientific, we know from personal experience that it works".
so a certifiable public health problem with distinct social impact & costs should be trusted to a program that can't provide scientific evidence of efficacy & in fact has shown to be almost a complete failure when subjected to scientific study.
because from "personal experience it works". kind of like seances & astrological readings. yes, i see. it all makes perfect sense now ... .
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
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raytownloc 3 years ago
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rayrainieri 3 years ago
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raytownloc 3 years ago
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raytownloc 3 years ago
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raytownloc 3 years ago
The 12 steps are intrinsically Dishonest, they were stolen from the fundamentalist Oxford group whose sole purpose is religion.
AA is just a non-workable phoney hand-me-down cult religion for drunkards.
lighwave 3 years ago
BLAH BLAH Lower Key?
Find honesty and you can finally stop using to escape. There is no treatment for willful stupidity or irresponsibility.
The problem is that treatment has not been in your face like a screaming Nun.
You use to escape and no other reason. Is it really that hard to be honest?
If people "in recovery" say more than "find honesty", they are lying to you.
isegoria1 3 years ago
It's hard be honest with someone who has a gun in your face. It's the burden of omnipotence - you can't force the truth ...and you can't force someone to heal.
Again, take my advice. Don't call us, we'll call you.
unsubscribed 3 years ago
Who said anything about a gun? That is your own assumptions and perception. Should we tell you its all ok and you can blame it on anything you like?
12 steps is for people who either can not or will not get honest with the reasons they used.
No you can not force anyone to be honest, I have personally run into more dishonest people than honest people.
isegoria1 3 years ago
I keep forgetting that the law doesn't use weapons.
I drank and used becuase I don't know how to be with myself, let alone other people.
Maybe that's just a belief. The truth may be that I am an honest and congenial fellow who just occasionally wants to throw himself in front of a bus.
unsubscribed 3 years ago
Spoken like a true AA cultist know-nothing.
entity3sf 3 years ago
Read the profile - Unless you think I used too many big words for you.
isegoria1 3 years ago
Generalities and euphamisms like these are so easy to work with as long as you're not doing anything.
Yes, I'm irate at being convicted for marijuana possession, but I view it as an opportunity to get to know myself better. Anger IS a gift. It not only tells you that your buttons got pushed, it points to where they are.
Yes, I'm irate that I can't drink like a gentleman, but I like my AA group AND I'm an atheist.
All beliefs are artificial. Master them and master your life.
unsubscribed 3 years ago
Talk about a contradiction of terms.
Your own actions and a belief made you think you could get away with possession. Beliefs are for people who do not like reality.
What does your Big Book read like when you cut out their God? Like an undone madlib.
You are living an oxymoron and they are helping you. Do you like XA's anti thought ideals?
isegoria1 3 years ago
Isegoria1,
If I didn't realize that you were trying to SELL ME SOMETHING, I'd think you were advocating nihilism.
"Beliefs are for people who do not like reality." What kind of cack is that? I'm not going to argue semantics with you. You obviously think "belief" implies something more than it really does.
I'm comfortable with living a contradiction. My world doesn't HAVE to make sense. It's not a math problem.
IF I wanted to heal, I'd come to you. Not the reverse.
unsubscribed 3 years ago
nihilism? Thanks for showing your lack of understanding.
Some people like lies - It appears you do.
isegoria1 3 years ago
I don't see any correlation between my lack of rigidity and your inability to articulate.
unsubscribed 3 years ago
Does that make you feel better? My ability to articulate is just fine so there is a difference my flaccid acquaintance.
isegoria1 3 years ago
I don't feel better, no.
But perhaps you can help me. Lead me, guide me. Show me how to live. Teach by example.
Then, when you're done with that, you can explain what the fuck you're talking about.
unsubscribed 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
;)
Just wanted folks to know; I started an online voice enabled SOS style meeting.
It's a safe, secular place for those looking for sobriety or abstinence support without all of the AA/NA religion and insanity.
Free,critical thinking, self-empowerment and secular expression is encouraged and fostered!
Email me through youtube for the details if you're interested
Be Well
:)
Jrunri 3 years ago
Your Question:" What do you think your problem is?"
Better Question: Your drinking is destroying you and the people who care for you. What are you going to do about it?
quickcap 4 years ago
I agree. Being a judgmental Christian nutball is much more effective!
pjbergin 4 years ago
What causes problems - IS a problem.
rimshot2008 4 years ago
Your "Better Question" presupposes that the individual accepts that s/he is an addict and is willing to take action. If this is the case, then the question itself is unnecessary.
I think SP is saying that it's more effective to let the individual conclude that s/he is addicted and decide on a goal (e.g. abstinence) rather than telling him or her that s/he's an addict and needs to quit.
telethon123 4 years ago
I think his methods are more suited to "high bottoms" than are support groups like SOS and AA. We need more ways to help people who are experiencing problems but for whom meetings, programs, etc. would seem like overkill. To work the AA program or to use SOS's cognitive strategy one needs to acknowledge one's alcoholism. SP's methods seem like a good alternative for those who aren't ready to do so, perhaps because they are in the "problem drinker"/alcoholic gray area.
telethon123 4 years ago