In order to compete with China, AUW needs to consider a dramaitic pay cut down below minimum wage. Many of us non union workes are now being forced to work for $7.25 an hour, and we loose our assembly jobs to China everyday. It is time that China also take over the AUW jobs and make the AUW suffer along with us in this terrible economy. I hope that the big three out sources to China!
10 UAW members combined don't have the IQ of a head of lettuce. UAW members are human waste. Actually human waste has a use, UAW members don't. Ghetto fucker is an idiot.
" Unlike all you little people who have lost their jobs in this recession , we at the UAW are sacred. We must have all of our jobs , huge pensions , big ass wages , excessive vacation time and Cadillac insurance plans protected. The tax payers owe us because we exist. If the Democrat controlled Congress doesn't give us a huge taxpayer funded loan that we never have to pay back , it's all the Republicans fault." Is this man even sane?
I used to fix airplanes for a living. If I messed up hundreds could have been killed but since I work for a reginonal airline I make less than the ASE mechanic right out of school. A mistake on my part can kill so many. If I ever make a god honest mistake hundreds may die. I can only hope that one day I can make the same wages that a UAW worker makes and have my potential mistake result in only a relative few casualties and no consequence on my career.
Let me translate..."I am here to get as much money for the unions as possible. I have no idea what I am talking about but I am sure if I criticize everyone we will get more money. Also it is probably our fault that that Americans suck at making cars but I will blame foreign car companies for no reason...thank you and I am a fucking greedy retard."
Why hasn't Obama fired Gettlefinger? Because in typical Chicago fashion it was the union mob that got him elected...that's why. Socialism at it's best folks. Wait until you see the shit cars that Detroit will try to ram down our throats after the government takeover...fucking laughable. My Hondas and Toyotas have always been better than my Fords and GMs, so guess what I am buying exclusively from now on. Fuck the UAW for not making concessions like the elitist pricks they are.
@marceads did you know that gettlefinger is on Obamas advisor staff for finance reform? soooooo laughable....UAW threw millions to Obamas campaign too, hes gonna do whats best for them while Detroit is rotting...
average UAW pay 32.32/hr plus tremendous benefits. I worked my ass of in school to get a cell bio degree, incurred debt while earning no income for 4 years and I may never get this level of compensation. These people have no degree and expect an upper middle class income in an area with a low cost of living. No sympathy from me, they don't deserve that much money and their bloated salaries helped to make US cars overpriced pieces of crap.
unions equal less than 10% of the total costs per vehicle. you're misinformed. skilled trades average $32 where line workers $28. tremendous benefits? health care = $25 co-pay for 5 visits then required to pay 100%. i won't see a pension, either. so what "tremendous" benefits are you referring to? i also have student loans to pay back (associates & mcse degrees). i work hard to provide for my family. i don't drink or smoke. what's a joke is that these are loans NOT bailouts.
@5uper5tring exactly...why should a janitor make 35.00 bux per hour sweeping a floor at GM and retire with kick ass benefits? makes no sense to me...guess they cant live on 15.00 per hour...sad what America has come to
@wilhelm1974 shows you how much you know. Sweepers are third party contact for the past 5 yrs. Making less than $14 hr. All these UAW haters refuse to know or learn the truth about the actual impact our pay and benefits are. UAW has made several concession to wages ($14.35 for new hires) benefits - pior to bankruptcy. those concessions and the dedicated workforce is the reason US auto co's are making a comback. FYI: this aint your daddy's UAW anymore.
Not all Union members are lazy. However, the Union spends 90% of its time taking care of 10% of the membership. Stop spending so much time looking after the drunks and drug addicts who say the auto industry made me this way. What a joke. Unions are'nt bad they just are'nt focused on the big picture.
I win...the first pro union comment to my factual accounts of how badly twisted the unions have become in the US is written by a special needs commie lib. Thank you so much for proving my point dizzymasekela...you were just the type that I was fishing for. Go back to your coloring books and crayons.
Go UAW! Go unions! It's patriotic to wish cancer on all Republitards - they're just a bunch of anti-American turds who want all real Americans to drive Hyundais and Hondas.
I'm on a roll here. I wish all of you who are currently working for a union would just once try to make it on your own running a business. The shoe would then fairly be placed on the other foot and the story would change dramatically. I once worked 2 trade shows back to back. One in Grand Rapids MI, One in Chicago. Boy Scouts moved our stuff in GR for a $20 fee. Union workers in Chicago for $150. Stuff in Chicago got lost and was found 3 floors below later that afternoon. Great Job boys!
Ask Gettelfinger what the UAW has done to reinvest in the workers futures. Nothing...the money that they steal from the members goes towards buying off political figures and mob bosses. The more money a lineworker takes home, the more money the union get for nothing in exchange. Why can't these people understand that they would make more take home without the union...Look at the mining industry...poor union saps make 1/2 of non-union with less benefits. Gettelfinger is the real crook in this
I want to share some of the stunts that were pulled while I was working in Chicago. At least 2 union "reps" a day would approach me wanting work for their guys. When they were told "no", one of two things would happen. I would either get threatened, or told that they could be bought off. City officials were tied right in with them as well. We were doing work that took a reasonable amount of scientific training...high school level at best...which of the union pool had. Idiots...all of em.
hey trogdor1337...with a name like trogdor, you must have been playing with you Star Wars action figures for way too long. It is not the 20's anymore, and there are means by which safety standards are measured and met. I love the same "pro-union" cliche' talk...typical stuff spouted to make them feel good about paying the dues I guess. They had their time in the 20's...but it is 2009 in a couple of days. Eat your union card when all of these jobs are history...bailout or not. Boycott big 3.
Hmmm...at one time I had to work under a stinking union up in Chicago for a project because non-union shops were not allowed. It cost the taxpayers paying for it 40% more and my own personal take home was 11% lower do to the fucking union taking their share. It also hampered productivity and I hated every minute we were on the job. Here's an idea...find another job, outside of a union, and tell me how great they are then. The UAW and ridiculous contracts are the accounting problem...period.
1% of the people in this world have 80% of the wealth and the GOP has the audacity to attack the UAW. If most American's just educated themselves they'd see that the UAW is not the problem. "Supercapitalism" is and was the problem. Until we return to "democratic capitalism" we our economy will continue to downspiral. Wake up American and realize that the richest of the rich caused this crisis and not the UAW. Ever since Reagan started union bashing in 1980 we've been susceptible to this collapse
If we had universal healthcare in this country... the impact of this financial crisis could've been avoided. 50% of home foreclosures last year were caused by someone getting sick. 75% of those people that home's were foreclosed upon had health insurance at the onset of their illness. Anyone else seeing something wrong with this picture? We are the only industrialized country in the world that allows its people to work their whole lives to have everything taken away because of sickness..WAKE UP
Lousy commie slug, the auto industry should have, like the corrupt mismanaged banks been allowed to fail. Bush and the reast of the baliouters should be impeached!
I also can't believe someone is saying union workers are "greedy" for demanding safety standards in the workplace and benefits for themselves and their families that higher tier workers would get automatically. Do you remember what factory conditions were like in the 20's that lead people to form unions and demand higher standards? Do you know your history? You have a right to not die as a result of work when you are performing a job that should not have an inherent risk (cop, soldier, etc.).
"benefits for themselves and their families that higher tier workers would get automatically..."
The problem lies in your assumption that assembly line workers are deserving of 'higher tier' wages. I disagree strongly. They are overpaid. And they are the ones who strike when their employers balk at the legalized union-driven extortion that we call 'negotiations.'
And yes, I know my history. But a good idea turned bad is not justified. And the 20's are long gone.
Sorry, it's not just the "greedy union workers" contributing to the failure of GM. The American consumer has gotten smart, they want cars that are fuel efficient, practical to drive, and long-lasting. American cars do not fit any of those categories. They have to make a hybrid to compete with the fuel efficiency of non-hybrid Japanese cars because they won't make their cars in a practical size. Everything has to be bigger than it needs to be with useless shiny toys, they think we are dumb.
Bingo.... markets place demands on industry. IN order to survive, industry must be able to respond to those demands. I remember when 'made in Japan' was a joke and a slur. Not any more.
I would argue, tho, that hybrids are not yet affordable for the average buyer whether US or offshore. The batteries are very expensive and the upfront purchase costs are high. Instead, I would argue that the 3 great demands are purchase affordability, longevity and simple fuel economy.
I have bought my last American made car...period. The UAW and it's workers should share their share of this mess if they want to continue working. Sorry folks, but those who are not UAW are taking this hard and are pissed. I am not the only one who has had it. The Unions have run their course...just ask anyone working at a Toyota plant. I have two American made pickups for sale...any takers? The money they recieved is just a band-aid anyway. My US made cars have been junk anyway.
marceads, your comments are representative of a large and growing majority in the US. We as American consumers and workers are tired of the high prices forced on us by the few who nurse at the breast of union mandated extortion.
We have seen our jobs go away because unions have made production so expensive as to disallow competition both here at home and abroad. They have driven manufacturing offshore.
Get a clue, unionized American workers. Time for you to pay the piper like the rest of us
80% of the wealth in this world is in the hands of the top 1% of wealth. I rest my case on anyone trying to blame the unions for anything. It's the trickle down...on your own economic philosophy that's gripped this nation since 1980 that's put us in the vulnerable position we find ourselves in today. WAKE UP AMERICA and realize that The foundation of a prosperous nation is healthy and well educated citizens. Support HR 676, shutdown GITMO, and let's once again regain the respect of the world!!!
Anybody who says this is the Union's fault is an idiot. In the nearly 30 years since the advent of Reagan's America (read: a wholesale screwing of the American Worker), real wages as a whole have actually dropped. The average CEO now makes more than 500 times the salary of the average lowest-paid worker. The GM CEO made $14.4 million last year leading a failing company. Thank God the workers don't build failing cars. If they did, they would all be FIRED. Get the difference?
The fault of the failed bill lies squarly at the feet of the UAW.
Failure to agree to make concessions on pay when it is the american taxpayer footing the bill for the bailout shows a complete lack of regard for the taxpayers.
It also shows just how out of touch these unions really are with the realities of the situation. A situation partially of their own making.
"The 70-year-old Madoff, whom the Securities and Exchange Commission accused of operating a Ponzi scheme, managed money for the foundations of such titans as Steven Spielberg, New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon and clothier Carl Shapiro, according to tax returns."
Even the Wealthy, the insiders, can't trust their own, this is why Governments were established to protect the people from robber baron banks and corporate crooks.
Unions created the middle class, help support them.
how is it that toyota sold the same amount of cars as gm and turned a profit of 17 billion and gm lost billions? auto industry workers are paid way too much from ceo to people standing around getting paid $35 an hour. the employee allowed the uaw to run their well dry.
I have found that you have come to the wrong blog to ask this question. The pro-union voices here don't have the intellectual honesty to wrestle with that one. They will turn a blind eye to the exorbitant costs of worker compensation packages and instead blame white collar workers, overpaid execs, the Rothschilds, etc.
So, just one admonition.... don't hold your breath awaiting intelligent dialogue.... just ignore the irresponsible ignorance that you will see. LOL.
this mentality of the one who dies with the most toys wins is a sickness in our society
These people live on luck, its foolishness and life threatening, but these white collar workers are about to feel the pinch & it will be the blue collar union worker who will keep the American dream alive & the model for quality of life in this country
If there is one strength the blue collar worker has it is to fight and work hard to stay alive, white collar workers jump out of windows - Happy landing!
"this mentality of the one who dies with the most toys wins is a sickness in our society"
How laughable that Marnie decries non-union greed but turns a blind eye to the greed of unions and their members.
Marnie, EVERYBODY is 'feeling the pinch.' That is the way markets adjust and repair themselves.
And it is not the 'blue collar' worker that keeps the AMerican dream alive. It will be every American that understands free markets, personal responsibility and economics (this excludes unions)
Oh please..... your dramatic rantings about the gov't wanting to 'kill an industry' are ludicrous. Gov't will 'kill the industry' only by involving itself where it does not belong. A bailout will not save these dinosaurs. My tax dollars are not paid to prop up the bloated labor costs of the UAW.
This is about corporations that have been careless, workers who have been greedy, and the unions that have orchestrated much of the problem.
QUit the drama and histrionics. You marginalize your voice
as a drowning republican- this stupid attck on the working people in Mi, OH and In will turn these states blue for years. is the GOP doomed to be be the party of the south and rednecks?
btw- interesting TN can't afford education or health care for their kids- but they had no problem with socialist tax breaks for the Japs?
Try telling the entire story: The averagle hourly labor rate (for wages and bennies and retirement, etc.) for GM is $75; for Toyota ... it is only $47, this according to the 2008 Harbour Report. And who do we thank for the soaring labor costs faced by the US Big 3?
The UAW.
SImply speaking, when a company cannot sell enough units to cover all costs and create profit, then that company must make adjustments. The first adjustment is to lower costs.
As a Republican living in Michigan, I keep saying, "Do the wrong thing, please!" Of course, this bailout would be dick up everybody's else asses in this country, but please, Washington, do the wrong thing.
once again, it is the middle class of this country against evil power of the rushie herbert hoover neocons ... and the neocons have sided with the japan and germany again ... they have voted to shut down the big three ... because they believe that the workers and not upper mangement should be paid like the chinese ... no, no ... management must show the way and accept chinese upper management wages first ... $10/hr and give up their $25M/year salaries ... the rushies are anti-worker
Rushies.... neocons... herbert hoover neocons... workers.... chinese....
Your stereotyping ignorance completely undermines any point you might be trying to make. The issue is that in a free market economy, it is incumbent on (a) business to reach profitability. The government has not duty, call, responsibility, obligation to rescue private enterprise with tax dollars.
All involved in a struggling business must participate in the solution. Pay cuts across the board, restructure via BK.
Oh please.... to make the unions out as the innocent victims of some governmental conspiracy requires as much ignorance and naivete as is needed to believe that government has your best interests at heart.
The unions brought this on themselves, as did workers who voted to unionize. When companies and industries are unable to be profitable at least in part to the high union-driven overhead, they must cut overhead to survive.
Get a clue. Better that all take pay cuts than all are laid off.
Are you that dumb to think auto makers are not making a profit. Funny at how they spend million a day on Tv,newpaper and billbord ads a day. Not month or year but per day. They can't do that unless they are making a profit.
it more of the greedy rich wanting more free money from the tax payers.
Angleboot, perhaps you should revisit economics 101. When a business/corp/industry owes more money than it brings in, then that organization is making no profit. They are making DEBT.
Where have you been over the last 6 months.... Homeowners buy themselves nice toys they cannot afford and are losing their homes because their outgo exceeds their income.
This is a simple and universal principle. Spending credit doesn't equal creating profit.
As I said before, if union worker take a $3 $4 dollar pay cut. So should all the nonunion workers as well. Being that the nonunion companies bid the same amount for the same work to be done, but pay their workers less. don't blame the union workers, put the blame were it belong. On the people that are willing to work for Mexican wages. Then whine to the government for "CHANGE". Or for free handout s in welfare. Free heathcare.
IMHO, your idea is asinine and juvenile. The unions and their members created the problem for themselves. The nonunion shops deal with their own issues. But exorbitant costs are most likely not one of those non-union issues.
Greed drives unions. The consequences of that greed must be paid by the greedy.
Did you mother spank you for your sibling's misbehavior?
Obama should insist Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes and the other foreign car companies close their American manufacturing plants and take them back home.
If Obama does not believe in outsourcing then those car companies must go home.
Next step is for all American car companies to move manufacturing to Mexico.
Ron Gettelfinger is in the hip pocket of the Obama camp. And has been. This same people he push for unuion memembers to vote for are the same people wanting union memembers to take a cut in pay and benefits. Then have the balls to stand up and blame it on Senate GOP. When it is known that more democratic senate voted against it unless union memebers take a cut in pay and benefits.
Lets just make Ron Gettelfinger and all union union officials as well as all democratic senators take a cut in pay
Since the UAW hr cost avg is $70 & Asian transplants R $38,why doesnt that reflect in the price? & where does that much profit go? Why do Senators that have Conservative Capitalistic Ideologies enjoy Foreign Auto Co. so much in their states that run cheaper because of the benefit of having Gov. Socialized Health Care? But would never support it for their own people...Beside the fact The U.S. Fed Gov. pays 500 million 2 foreign Auto Co. 2 build factories in the U.S. & UAW pay is LESS than Toyota
The gov. has been busting unions, it's time to strike and stand up to the CEO's and the corporate hitlers! UAW need to strike and hold the line! Strenght in Numbers, don't take a pay cut unless the leaders start first!
Are you joking? How about the UAW letting Iron Worker Unions do tool change overs during shut downs with out having to match workers, sucking double time out of the auto industry while playing cards, or reading books, or sleeping. How about not paying 95% wages to laid off workers. How about earning your money. With out a union re-structure the industry is doomed.
LOL. You show a striking ignorance of our current situation and of the marketplace. Strike against companies that are insolvent and on the verge of collapse in order to preserve the jobs? You show the ridiculous reasoning of the unions and exemplify the very reason why most AMericans do not like unions.
Across the board, car makers need to implement pay cuts as part of the survival package. Execs, worker bees, everybody. That is but the first painful step to survival.
GM play the tax system like a Harp, they allow the American tax payers pay 240 million in taxes for them, and GM pay NO taxes! The are almost insolvent because they never to make eco-friendly cars, they went along with the big oil companies own by the Rothchilds to make gas hog suvs. The elite CEO's and board members want a job also, if the workers strike they lose money as well. Workers wages have not kept up with inflation, UAW should making $50 an hour, not losing their health care & pensions
Conspiracy theories such as yours are similar to an a**hole; everybody has one, nobody wants to hear it spew, and it produces nothing but... well, you get the idea.
GM is insolvent because their production costs are too high. As to the 'ecocars', how is it that producing these more expensive cars will cause more people to buy them in the throes of a declining economy?
And $50 per hour? To assemble cars? You are delusional. GM labor costs are approximately $75 per hour (wages & bennies).
I have not checked to confirm your numbers. Even so, should your numbers be correct, you play a fool's game with your 'either/or' rationale.
The issue is not whether executive greed is more or less significant and repulsive than worker bee greed. The issue is that greed on all levels has crushed the Big3. To fix the corps, resolve the greed on all levels.
We are outraged that execs take what they do when their companys' flounder, and outraged that workers take what they do from failing corps.
Where the gov't COULD help repair the industry is to undo the ridiculous CAFE standards that increase the unit costs. Instead of throwing tax dollars at insolvency, try backing off Mr and Mrs Washington! You were NEVER meant to be so involved in screwing with privately owned business.
But I will not hold my breath until the gov't does what they need to do, which is kick the UAW in the teeth, and back off with regulations. UAW = democratic votes = power.
This year, Wagoner will pull down a salary of $2.2 million, in addition to other CEO perks. And last year, Wagoner's total compensation was $14.4 million. That works out to $39,452.05 per day, including weekends. (Note that in 2007, GM lost a staggering $38.7 billion).....
For example, the estimated pay of Toyota's CEO in 2005 was under $1 million.
The GOP had control of both houses of Congress plus the White House from when Dubya was sworn in in January 2001 until January 2007 and the only notch on their belt they can claim is the Iraq War!..No comprehensive energy policy, no health care reform, failure to fund no child left behind and a financial crisis helped from deregulation of Wall St! Hey, but at least they didn't pull the same campaign tactics to get Saxby Chambliss re-elected this time as they did against Max Cleland in 2002.
UAW new hires make about $15 an hour, close to the starting wage of a Toyota worker in the US; who boasts their US workers make $16 an hour
US Toyota workers have about the same health care coverage as UAW; which has been slashed these past 8 years, but Toyota workers in the US could have better
They don't because Toyota must pay, under law, Japanese Health Care not American
You pay more for a Toyota because you are SUBSIDIZING Japanese Health Care with your US dollars
Miss Marnie, I believe you did not understand my facts as I related them. The figures I cited include all expenses of employment amortized on an hourly basis. When one adds the cost of retirement contributions, medical coverage, vacations, holidays, etc., etc., the numbers I cited are accurate.
UAW employees, whether new hires or journeymen, make a very handsome compensation. And the cost of labor broken out per unit sold gives Toyota a $600 advantage.
Marnie, the dialogue here was reasoned and interesting, even between disagreeing parties, until you showed up. I have been factual and courteous to you.
You have insulted, intimidated, and told people they are wrong without proving anything. Reading through the string here, it is evident that you don't comprehend what it is you read. Perhaps you have such strong opinions that you miss the point.
This is not meant as an insult. Merely a challenge to you to read more carefully.
Ron Gettelfinger is a lying idiot. The Senate Republicans are correct. The ONE AND ONLY thing that will allow the auto industry to remain viable, and avoid collapse, is an IMMEDIATE reduction in the wages and benefits of UAW members. If this is not done, even a bailout won't save them. If Gettelfinger has his way, changes won't occur until 2011. The industry will be dead by then (without REPEATED bailouts). Unsustainable business model. It IS that simple. Change it now, or lose all.
So your telling me a person who is making 45 million shouldn't take atleat a 2 to 3% pay cut to help save his company while the workers take a significant pay cut?? The worker are doing what they were paid to do who told the higher up to do what the oil companies said??
No, you did not read my other comments here. All who work for the troubled corporations need to make sacrifices if the company is to survive. But to infer that the tens of billions of dollars needed to bring the Big3 to solvency would result from corporate pay cuts is, well.... it is just naive.
Believing that is akin to believing that imposing higher taxes on the wealthiest 5% of Americans will fix our 10 trillion dollar deficit. Neither is true; they are simply a practice in class envy
No it's not I don't want Congress to bail them out at all I personally think the Oil companies should not our government and this isn't class envy it's what the big 3 did to get themselves this situation.
Arkham is your typical moron who doesn't even know that he has 40rh week because of unions. A pension,paid vacation,sick days, and a fair wage. No wonder why this country is ranked 47# in education because of people like arkam1999.
No, our country is ranked lower in education because our government runs education, acting as the schoolhouse pimp for the NEA. Teachers' unions are a prime example of why we DO NOT need unions. They have ensured that the education bar has been lowered. They protect the substandard worker with ideas like tenure, sacrificing the student for the sake of the employee.
No nonunion business can get away with protecting useless employees that mistreat the client.
Well, Dblock7185 I don't have the luxury of a 40 hour work week, I typically work 50 hours a week, whether it be days, nights or holidays. I don't have a pension option or paid sick days either, and if I don't work my children don't have health insurance. And regarding educational standards, if you really believe that tripe that you are spewing I would ascertain that you are the product of said system.
I can't feel sorry for a single one of them, bunch of greedy bastards. On one end you have the greedy execs, living in their ivory tower collecting untold millions. And on the other side you have a bunch of whiny, spoiled workers who make at least twice as much a I (and a lot of other people) do working overtime with sub par working conditions. All of them need to grow the heck up and stop looking for a handout, a job that makes less money is better than no job at all!!!
For decades the US has had cheaper gas prices than most of the rest of the world. This has lead to US car manufactures concentrating on big heavy gas guzzelers that people who care about the environment dont want, and people who dont give a dam about the environment cant afford to run. Poor Management Id say.
If the concern is american debt and credit why not do a all debt forgiveness for the american tax payer. Tommorow when you wake up all your debt is forgiven, mortgage, car loans, medical bills, credit cards, all forgiven. The billions of dollars we are giving failures know goes to the American people it is our money any way...Imagine what you could do with your full paycheck.
If I do a shitty job and loose money in my private bussiness no one bails me out. Big bussiness runs a shitty shop, and then expects us to bail them out. If I know I will have no one to get a hand out from then I work HARDER. Big bussiness screws all of us over, then they expect us to help them, I say let them fail. You fail you learn. America is not a country that should reward ineptness look how bad it did when it let Bush steal the election. This plan was BS, the bank Bailout is BS reap it
did you notice that the auto companies themselves aren't complaining about the UAW? It's ONLY the gop senators doing the whining.
how come the automakers aren't standing up for the senators.. clearly the gop proposal was a piece of crap the auto companies knew was designed to fail. I think the execs knew they were being stabbed in the back by the gop senators.
The Big3 are companies who are spending more to produce product than they are taking in profit on sales of product. They wouldn't know a good idea if it hit them in the head.
The UAW and other unions like them are one of the main reasons AMerican production goes offshore. We live in a global marketplace; business must be able to compete price with imported goods, and with our own exports.
Answer this: how does a company lower its prices to compete globally when unions drive wages higher?
shame on CONGRESS - they prop up foreign automakers and hate the American worker - they want the US to turn into a third world economy
These are the people who get the best health care, full pensions after only a few years work and a pay check that's 3 times what the average American workers make from ALL provide by the American tax payer.
marniespeaks, "shame on CONGRESS - they prop up foreign automakers and hate the American worker.."
okay, but please note it's always the republicans who lead this stuff. teh democrats' crime is being gutless and cowardly and refusing to stand up to it.
How much does Toyota CEO make? How much does GM CEO make? How about the top 10 officers? All this talk about nickels and dimes from the UAW is disgusting. The workers on the front lines are not the problem. It's the bad marketing, products, and business decisions made by the upper management.
That's not exactly accurate. The UAW, as all unions do, dramatically pump up the price companies have to pay for their workers. This is why unions can be a bad thing. They have so much power, they can demand outrageous wages and companies like GM simply have to roll with the punches. Unions are great for employee protection, but very bad for business.
This is why, for example, CalTrans workers can make $40+ an hour just holding a freaking flag. I'm surprised the industry has lasted so long
wow, my grandfather, father in law and wife, that make $22 an hour at GM is too much?
While the CEO's and executives make millions, i dont get you people, why is it that the workers and union members take all the blame for this? Its management that makes 450 times as much as these people. While my wife to a paycut and gave concessions......the president of GM gave himself a raise and a bonus, that makes sense.
But i do agree with you, how has the industry lasted so long?
They are on the low end of the pay scale, simply put. As coyeti said in other comments, the average wage for UAW employees is $76 an hour.
It's a good question as to how it's lasted this long... I wish I knew. Maybe the government has already been propping them up without public disclosure of it..? That's pretty much the only way I can think of.
"The $78 figure, however, includes hourly wages, medical benefits and pension payments for hourly workers, along with medical benefits and pension payments for hundreds of thousands of retired workers."
Do you hate the elderly after a life time of work and dedication to your education and safety?
The wages and benefits of hourly UAW workers not counting retirees, actually amount to about $60 an hour. If only wages are counted, veteran workers make about $26 an hour
New hires, meantime, make about $15 an hour, close to the starting wage of Toyota's US workers
Toyota by law has to provide Universal Health Care to their countrymen in Japan
"As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five", an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour plus benefits that bring the total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour."
(cont.) "One blue-collar Delphi worker interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000)."
Yeah, no problems with the union, right? Moronic fucker. RESEARCH! Otherwise STFU.
yeah because he probably works 90 hours a week. He probably only makes $20 an hour, but the company gives away OT like its fucking candy.
I worked at Union Pacific railroad for a time. I only made $17 bucks an hour, but since I sometimes worked 15-20 days straight. One year I cleared $80k.
God forbid I get paid overtime, or get paid double time when i came in all those christmas's
because maybe they prop up our economy. Its not just the car company that will die, it will be the suppliers, the car dealers, the diner across the street that serves employees at lunch, the insurance companies that represent them, the pharmacy where the employee goes to get drugs, the shoe company where he buys his work boots, the tire company that puts tires on the cars, the radio company that puts radios in the cars, the leather maker that makes the seats, the muffler company that supplies it
Shame on me for what, stating facts? You're the one skewing data here bud. First its entirely illogical to wrap into the figure the cost of pensions for retired workers. Stop being foolish and use your brain. The pension payments included in that figure are for the person working, towards their pension when they retire. Shame on ME? Shame on you for not using some freaking common sense then having the gall to insult me. Sheesh.
Explain to me how it makes MATHEMATICAL sense to roll the costs of retired pensioners into the figure titled "AVERAGE HOURLY WAGE" ????? Seriously, pull your head out of your ASS.
I realize if these companies crash, so do their pensions, and that sucks for sure, but the rest of America shouldn't be held responsible solely so a few hundred thousand people still have pensions. Sorry, America doesn't work that way.
They ARE FUCKING GONE DIPSHIT!!! My grandfathers pension was taken away 4 years ago......there is no pensions left to be paid because THEY ARE FUCKING GONE. the only pensions left are executive pensions.
Obviously you have no family members affected by this so you have no clue. go live in your world of puppies and kittens.
Did you even read or are you so blind by your rage that you simply had to place your raving lunatic outburst to my comment? I never disputed weather or not they are gone - AT ALL. This foolish person is claiming the $75/hr average wage INCLUDES, SOMEHOW, the amount of money spent on retiree pensions evenly divided among the current workers.
Don't call me a dipshit when you can't even exercise basic reading comprehension you buffoon. It's sad to hear your of families future, but c'mon now.
"Do you hate the elderly after a life time of work and dedication to your education and safety?"
Miss Marnie, your bullying and innuendos really have no place here. Comments such as yours that I have quoted here are merely tools for intimidation. Let's talk facts.
When I cited the facts about CURRENT Big3 hourly labor costs, I was not critiquing senior care or anything else. I merely highlighted the diff between a profitable Toyota and an insolvent GM.
How funny. Marnie shows up here after the rest of us are already in dialogue, gets rude, makes rude comments, misreads comments, fails to comprehend ideas, and then resolves her embarrassment by flinging more insults.
Marnie, I ALWAYS know exactly to whom I speak and EXACTLY what I am saying. This is so I don't end up looking like an opinionated buffoon who has nothing but preference to offer.
There is NO union scale that tops out at $70 an hour. The hourly scale ends at $29, then you're on salary and in a supervisory role. My father in law is a union rep, and i was one for 3 years at the Teamsters, so we should know.
There is no union wage that pays hourly at $70....you are out of your fucking mind.
And its funny that they like to add the fact that benefits are added into that. My wife got no health benefits, so yeah she was straight $13 an hour.
Crowdaddy should read more carefully. The $70 to $75 per hour labor costs for GM INCLUDES BENNIES, RETIREMENT, etc. That is why it is called LABOR COSTS. NOBODY HERE said that is the hourly wage of the worker.
The source of the information for that hourly LABOR COST is documented in one of my earlier posts.
Ironic that somebody with union experience like crowdaddy is so ignorant. Wonder what that tells us....
well, that is actually a good thing of me.........i spend more time doing MY JOB than reading 250+ posts on fucking youtube.....i usually only respond to people that reply to my posts, i dont read every single post........i do have a life outside the computer, ya know my union "business"
I can appreciate your unwillingness to read all posts here.... but you must understand that to jump in midstream without understanding what has been said doesn't make you look like the brightest bulb in the box....
i dont care about whether or not people here think im smart or not........you dont sign my paycheck and nothing you do or say changes whether or not im employed or unemployed...however this GM mess affects all of us...so really im done with this conversation, its old
The flaw in your reasoning is that there are not that many CEOs and Execs. Most Big3 employees are worker bees. I agree that a company that is losing money cannot afford large rewards to anybody, worker bee or exec. But cutting exec perks is only a drop in the bucket.
And when a down turn arrives to restore reality to free markets, many of these apparently unnecessary positions are eliminated. Tasks are transferred to remaining staff who become overworked in the process of retaining their employment. That will happen.
But my prior point stands. The bulk of labor cost in these corporations is for the 'worker bee' and not the executive.
I think the wage cuts should be all workers, not just in the factory and on assembly lines, but the engineers, transportation, and on up to the CEOs. Make them produce safe, environmental positive cars that people can afford to pat cash for.
dont get How any company in the us can go under ppl work what 60h 80h weeks, have limited sickdays etc. and still all you here is that the companys are going down cus of the market.
Take care of your workers and they will Preform better and better and THAT is good for the nation and the companys.
and with the Big three want state cash (from the people) and they say that they will cut jobs, if you get state funds DONT FIRE THE PEOPLE.
The problem is less about employee performance than it is about the factors that make producing a Big3 vehicle so expensive. The question you must ask is 'why are costs so high.' This is the root of the problem. Detroit is going bankrupt; ergo, Detroit is spending MORE to produce cars than it is receiving by selling cars.
The UAW employees have good bennies. The effective cost to GM, Ford, etc., is $75 per hour for wages, bennies, retirement, etc.
I was floored when Katie Couric on the CBS evening news asked him if he thought 5 week vacation that UAW workers get is "excessive". In European countries they get vacations that long and longer, and it's mandated by the government! And they seem to be competitive in the global economy! How freakin ridiculous that the regular working class joe is being asked to pay for the bailout by taking a pay cut and working longer hours!!!!
For example, Germany (think BMW) has a mandated 6 week vacation! They also give their citizens healthcare! Everyone in America should have this. We aren't getting enough rest and we are stressed out and sick and unable to access medical care without going bankrupt. We can't be expected to get healthy and competitive with this work til you drop type lifestyle.
...enough, let the auto industry file chapter 11...few times I agree with Republicans...but them asking wage cuts from the union is total Bullshit!...typial republican anti working class mind set!
According to US Sen Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, "In 2007, GM sold 9.37 million cars worldwide. Toyota, that same year, sold 9.37 million cars worldwide. GM lost 38.7 billion. Toyota made 17.7 billion."
Perhaps you might explain to the rest of us why Toyota profits 17.7 billion dollars to GM's 38.7 billion dollar loss... and both companies produce approx the same number of units.....
Here is the rub: only a government would consider giving the investors' capital to businesses that are not only insolvent but show no promise of future profitability. No bank would do this. Even a 'hard money' lender would be hard pressed to undertake such fiscal foolishness
Yet we in the US have inexperienced economic/corporate ignorants like Frank and Dodd telling us what to do, and telling the Auto industry how to do it.
Yet these clowns orchestrated the Fannie/Freddi collapse...
You have got to be kidding! The workers just build what they're told to build, be it excellent machines or piles of crap. Obviously the Japanese have expended more effort in the area of engineering rather than wasting so much energy trying to find cheap labor in third world countries!
Also the Japanese treat their workers like FAMILY and the workers see their companies as their HOME. Maybe if GM started treating its workforce as an ASSET rather than something it buys at a cheap rate and then disposes of when it finds something cheaper it might create better morale and there would be no need for a union in the first place!
Wrong. I live in MI (and have all my life) and not only have I seen GM shut down its plants one by one (and not clean up its environmental mess behind it) I have also seen even the smaller shops, THAT DON'T HAVE AND NEVER HAVE HAD ANY UNIONS, that supply parts to GM, shut down and moving to Mexico for cheap labor. It is not because of the unions. It is because of agreements like NAFTA (gee, Ross Perot was right!) and unethical treatment of workers in third world countries.
But you miss the simple point. WHy would a company go offshore if it can stay local and be profitable? The answer: They don't leave in that case.
Nonunion employers have to compete with union bennies. Businesses do not operate in a vacuum but within industrial communities.
And who are you to say what is ethical in foreign nations and what is not? A factory worker in China earns a fraction of that earned by workers in the US, but that wage is a decent wage in their nation.
Actually you are missing the obvious point and that is greed. They can make more by treating Mexican workers unethically. I can say anything I want about any other nation because to me unethical behavior knows no national boundaries. A national boundary is simply an arbitrary line drawn by human beings. We are all human beings on this Earth and deserve to live in a health clean and safe environment.
In order to compete with China, AUW needs to consider a dramaitic pay cut down below minimum wage. Many of us non union workes are now being forced to work for $7.25 an hour, and we loose our assembly jobs to China everyday. It is time that China also take over the AUW jobs and make the AUW suffer along with us in this terrible economy. I hope that the big three out sources to China!
patsaxon 4 months ago
10 UAW members combined don't have the IQ of a head of lettuce. UAW members are human waste. Actually human waste has a use, UAW members don't. Ghetto fucker is an idiot.
mildot986 1 year ago
perriellos done...bye....
wilhelm1974 1 year ago
" Unlike all you little people who have lost their jobs in this recession , we at the UAW are sacred. We must have all of our jobs , huge pensions , big ass wages , excessive vacation time and Cadillac insurance plans protected. The tax payers owe us because we exist. If the Democrat controlled Congress doesn't give us a huge taxpayer funded loan that we never have to pay back , it's all the Republicans fault." Is this man even sane?
rstryker27 1 year ago 3
We dont buy american cars here. They're expensive, costly to maintain, hard to find parts for, and get poor milage.
bsnxenogear 2 years ago 2
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stinkfinger looks more queer than algore.
garyowen4ever 2 years ago
The big 3 should've automated the process a long time ago and could've beat the UAW and the Japanese a long time ago.
turbomoore 2 years ago 2
I used to fix airplanes for a living. If I messed up hundreds could have been killed but since I work for a reginonal airline I make less than the ASE mechanic right out of school. A mistake on my part can kill so many. If I ever make a god honest mistake hundreds may die. I can only hope that one day I can make the same wages that a UAW worker makes and have my potential mistake result in only a relative few casualties and no consequence on my career.
sgtish 2 years ago
Let me translate..."I am here to get as much money for the unions as possible. I have no idea what I am talking about but I am sure if I criticize everyone we will get more money. Also it is probably our fault that that Americans suck at making cars but I will blame foreign car companies for no reason...thank you and I am a fucking greedy retard."
PremiumWater 2 years ago
Thank you, Mr. Taggart. Now may I ask you, who is John Galt?
mechmusician 2 years ago
Why hasn't Obama fired Gettlefinger? Because in typical Chicago fashion it was the union mob that got him elected...that's why. Socialism at it's best folks. Wait until you see the shit cars that Detroit will try to ram down our throats after the government takeover...fucking laughable. My Hondas and Toyotas have always been better than my Fords and GMs, so guess what I am buying exclusively from now on. Fuck the UAW for not making concessions like the elitist pricks they are.
marceads 2 years ago
@marceads did you know that gettlefinger is on Obamas advisor staff for finance reform? soooooo laughable....UAW threw millions to Obamas campaign too, hes gonna do whats best for them while Detroit is rotting...
wilhelm1974 1 year ago
average UAW pay 32.32/hr plus tremendous benefits. I worked my ass of in school to get a cell bio degree, incurred debt while earning no income for 4 years and I may never get this level of compensation. These people have no degree and expect an upper middle class income in an area with a low cost of living. No sympathy from me, they don't deserve that much money and their bloated salaries helped to make US cars overpriced pieces of crap.
5uper5tring 3 years ago 8
unions equal less than 10% of the total costs per vehicle. you're misinformed. skilled trades average $32 where line workers $28. tremendous benefits? health care = $25 co-pay for 5 visits then required to pay 100%. i won't see a pension, either. so what "tremendous" benefits are you referring to? i also have student loans to pay back (associates & mcse degrees). i work hard to provide for my family. i don't drink or smoke. what's a joke is that these are loans NOT bailouts.
speeger 2 years ago
@5uper5tring exactly...why should a janitor make 35.00 bux per hour sweeping a floor at GM and retire with kick ass benefits? makes no sense to me...guess they cant live on 15.00 per hour...sad what America has come to
wilhelm1974 1 year ago
@wilhelm1974 shows you how much you know. Sweepers are third party contact for the past 5 yrs. Making less than $14 hr. All these UAW haters refuse to know or learn the truth about the actual impact our pay and benefits are. UAW has made several concession to wages ($14.35 for new hires) benefits - pior to bankruptcy. those concessions and the dedicated workforce is the reason US auto co's are making a comback. FYI: this aint your daddy's UAW anymore.
597914 1 year ago
@5uper5tring looks like you choose the wrong job
AJstar9 1 year ago
Not all Union members are lazy. However, the Union spends 90% of its time taking care of 10% of the membership. Stop spending so much time looking after the drunks and drug addicts who say the auto industry made me this way. What a joke. Unions are'nt bad they just are'nt focused on the big picture.
go4john 3 years ago
im tired of my less than minimum wage picking strawberries
i wanna be paid like a UAW worker $74 an hour benefits included and full monthly pay even when idled for months on end.
whats good for UAW is good for ME !! an average middle class American you bet !
emforty2 3 years ago
Go get a degree and stop fucking crying you socialist, uneducated fuck.
marceads 2 years ago
@marceads dont need a degree i have a union! i work for ford uaw and we are doing great.
AJstar9 1 year ago
kind of like the rich lazy folks who just sit around and live off their juicy dividend checks yuk yuk!
randompal 3 years ago
I win...the first pro union comment to my factual accounts of how badly twisted the unions have become in the US is written by a special needs commie lib. Thank you so much for proving my point dizzymasekela...you were just the type that I was fishing for. Go back to your coloring books and crayons.
marceads 3 years ago
Go UAW! Go unions! It's patriotic to wish cancer on all Republitards - they're just a bunch of anti-American turds who want all real Americans to drive Hyundais and Hondas.
Baby Jesus only loves Liberals
dizzymasekela 3 years ago
No asshole, Jesus loves everyone other than abortion clinic doctors and nurses, and Barney Frank.
marceads 2 years ago
I'm on a roll here. I wish all of you who are currently working for a union would just once try to make it on your own running a business. The shoe would then fairly be placed on the other foot and the story would change dramatically. I once worked 2 trade shows back to back. One in Grand Rapids MI, One in Chicago. Boy Scouts moved our stuff in GR for a $20 fee. Union workers in Chicago for $150. Stuff in Chicago got lost and was found 3 floors below later that afternoon. Great Job boys!
marceads 3 years ago
Ask Gettelfinger what the UAW has done to reinvest in the workers futures. Nothing...the money that they steal from the members goes towards buying off political figures and mob bosses. The more money a lineworker takes home, the more money the union get for nothing in exchange. Why can't these people understand that they would make more take home without the union...Look at the mining industry...poor union saps make 1/2 of non-union with less benefits. Gettelfinger is the real crook in this
marceads 3 years ago
I want to share some of the stunts that were pulled while I was working in Chicago. At least 2 union "reps" a day would approach me wanting work for their guys. When they were told "no", one of two things would happen. I would either get threatened, or told that they could be bought off. City officials were tied right in with them as well. We were doing work that took a reasonable amount of scientific training...high school level at best...which of the union pool had. Idiots...all of em.
marceads 3 years ago
hey trogdor1337...with a name like trogdor, you must have been playing with you Star Wars action figures for way too long. It is not the 20's anymore, and there are means by which safety standards are measured and met. I love the same "pro-union" cliche' talk...typical stuff spouted to make them feel good about paying the dues I guess. They had their time in the 20's...but it is 2009 in a couple of days. Eat your union card when all of these jobs are history...bailout or not. Boycott big 3.
marceads 3 years ago
KyndestKid...what color is the sky in the world that you live in?
marceads 3 years ago
Hmmm...at one time I had to work under a stinking union up in Chicago for a project because non-union shops were not allowed. It cost the taxpayers paying for it 40% more and my own personal take home was 11% lower do to the fucking union taking their share. It also hampered productivity and I hated every minute we were on the job. Here's an idea...find another job, outside of a union, and tell me how great they are then. The UAW and ridiculous contracts are the accounting problem...period.
marceads 3 years ago
1% of the people in this world have 80% of the wealth and the GOP has the audacity to attack the UAW. If most American's just educated themselves they'd see that the UAW is not the problem. "Supercapitalism" is and was the problem. Until we return to "democratic capitalism" we our economy will continue to downspiral. Wake up American and realize that the richest of the rich caused this crisis and not the UAW. Ever since Reagan started union bashing in 1980 we've been susceptible to this collapse
KyndestKid 3 years ago
If we had universal healthcare in this country... the impact of this financial crisis could've been avoided. 50% of home foreclosures last year were caused by someone getting sick. 75% of those people that home's were foreclosed upon had health insurance at the onset of their illness. Anyone else seeing something wrong with this picture? We are the only industrialized country in the world that allows its people to work their whole lives to have everything taken away because of sickness..WAKE UP
KyndestKid 3 years ago
Lousy commie slug, the auto industry should have, like the corrupt mismanaged banks been allowed to fail. Bush and the reast of the baliouters should be impeached!
NewMexicanBob 3 years ago
Agreed!
ChadWSU 3 years ago
I also can't believe someone is saying union workers are "greedy" for demanding safety standards in the workplace and benefits for themselves and their families that higher tier workers would get automatically. Do you remember what factory conditions were like in the 20's that lead people to form unions and demand higher standards? Do you know your history? You have a right to not die as a result of work when you are performing a job that should not have an inherent risk (cop, soldier, etc.).
trogdor1337 3 years ago
"benefits for themselves and their families that higher tier workers would get automatically..."
The problem lies in your assumption that assembly line workers are deserving of 'higher tier' wages. I disagree strongly. They are overpaid. And they are the ones who strike when their employers balk at the legalized union-driven extortion that we call 'negotiations.'
And yes, I know my history. But a good idea turned bad is not justified. And the 20's are long gone.
coyeti 3 years ago
Sorry, it's not just the "greedy union workers" contributing to the failure of GM. The American consumer has gotten smart, they want cars that are fuel efficient, practical to drive, and long-lasting. American cars do not fit any of those categories. They have to make a hybrid to compete with the fuel efficiency of non-hybrid Japanese cars because they won't make their cars in a practical size. Everything has to be bigger than it needs to be with useless shiny toys, they think we are dumb.
trogdor1337 3 years ago
Bingo.... markets place demands on industry. IN order to survive, industry must be able to respond to those demands. I remember when 'made in Japan' was a joke and a slur. Not any more.
I would argue, tho, that hybrids are not yet affordable for the average buyer whether US or offshore. The batteries are very expensive and the upfront purchase costs are high. Instead, I would argue that the 3 great demands are purchase affordability, longevity and simple fuel economy.
coyeti 3 years ago
I have bought my last American made car...period. The UAW and it's workers should share their share of this mess if they want to continue working. Sorry folks, but those who are not UAW are taking this hard and are pissed. I am not the only one who has had it. The Unions have run their course...just ask anyone working at a Toyota plant. I have two American made pickups for sale...any takers? The money they recieved is just a band-aid anyway. My US made cars have been junk anyway.
marceads 3 years ago
marceads, your comments are representative of a large and growing majority in the US. We as American consumers and workers are tired of the high prices forced on us by the few who nurse at the breast of union mandated extortion.
We have seen our jobs go away because unions have made production so expensive as to disallow competition both here at home and abroad. They have driven manufacturing offshore.
Get a clue, unionized American workers. Time for you to pay the piper like the rest of us
coyeti 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
i need someone smart to keep me entertained
why cant i see the video 3O
DJxLILEC 3 years ago
80% of the wealth in this world is in the hands of the top 1% of wealth. I rest my case on anyone trying to blame the unions for anything. It's the trickle down...on your own economic philosophy that's gripped this nation since 1980 that's put us in the vulnerable position we find ourselves in today. WAKE UP AMERICA and realize that The foundation of a prosperous nation is healthy and well educated citizens. Support HR 676, shutdown GITMO, and let's once again regain the respect of the world!!!
KyndestKid 3 years ago
Anybody who says this is the Union's fault is an idiot. In the nearly 30 years since the advent of Reagan's America (read: a wholesale screwing of the American Worker), real wages as a whole have actually dropped. The average CEO now makes more than 500 times the salary of the average lowest-paid worker. The GM CEO made $14.4 million last year leading a failing company. Thank God the workers don't build failing cars. If they did, they would all be FIRED. Get the difference?
BobCubTAC 3 years ago
The fault of the failed bill lies squarly at the feet of the UAW.
Failure to agree to make concessions on pay when it is the american taxpayer footing the bill for the bailout shows a complete lack of regard for the taxpayers.
It also shows just how out of touch these unions really are with the realities of the situation. A situation partially of their own making.
drg1301 3 years ago
@drg1301 im glad it failed im a uaw at ford and we are doing great
AJstar9 1 year ago
"The 70-year-old Madoff, whom the Securities and Exchange Commission accused of operating a Ponzi scheme, managed money for the foundations of such titans as Steven Spielberg, New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon and clothier Carl Shapiro, according to tax returns."
Even the Wealthy, the insiders, can't trust their own, this is why Governments were established to protect the people from robber baron banks and corporate crooks.
Unions created the middle class, help support them.
marniespeaks 3 years ago
how is it that toyota sold the same amount of cars as gm and turned a profit of 17 billion and gm lost billions? auto industry workers are paid way too much from ceo to people standing around getting paid $35 an hour. the employee allowed the uaw to run their well dry.
BUDDAWG2004 3 years ago
I have found that you have come to the wrong blog to ask this question. The pro-union voices here don't have the intellectual honesty to wrestle with that one. They will turn a blind eye to the exorbitant costs of worker compensation packages and instead blame white collar workers, overpaid execs, the Rothschilds, etc.
So, just one admonition.... don't hold your breath awaiting intelligent dialogue.... just ignore the irresponsible ignorance that you will see. LOL.
coyeti 3 years ago
thanks... and just so you know I went back and gave you thumbs up on your comments
BUDDAWG2004 3 years ago
this mentality of the one who dies with the most toys wins is a sickness in our society
These people live on luck, its foolishness and life threatening, but these white collar workers are about to feel the pinch & it will be the blue collar union worker who will keep the American dream alive & the model for quality of life in this country
If there is one strength the blue collar worker has it is to fight and work hard to stay alive, white collar workers jump out of windows - Happy landing!
marniespeaks 3 years ago
"this mentality of the one who dies with the most toys wins is a sickness in our society"
How laughable that Marnie decries non-union greed but turns a blind eye to the greed of unions and their members.
Marnie, EVERYBODY is 'feeling the pinch.' That is the way markets adjust and repair themselves.
And it is not the 'blue collar' worker that keeps the AMerican dream alive. It will be every American that understands free markets, personal responsibility and economics (this excludes unions)
coyeti 3 years ago
For over 50 years the US has spent trillions protected Japan and Germany
Now they want to kill an industry that helped to destroy two very brutal regimes
Not to mention those Union workers who gave up their jobs and lives on the battle fields
& the scorse of Union workers who are fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan today
What job will these soldiers come home to if this industry dies?
Are not the quality of American lives and jobs more important than the price of these stocks?
marniespeaks 3 years ago
Oh please..... your dramatic rantings about the gov't wanting to 'kill an industry' are ludicrous. Gov't will 'kill the industry' only by involving itself where it does not belong. A bailout will not save these dinosaurs. My tax dollars are not paid to prop up the bloated labor costs of the UAW.
This is about corporations that have been careless, workers who have been greedy, and the unions that have orchestrated much of the problem.
QUit the drama and histrionics. You marginalize your voice
coyeti 3 years ago
as a drowning republican- this stupid attck on the working people in Mi, OH and In will turn these states blue for years. is the GOP doomed to be be the party of the south and rednecks?
btw- interesting TN can't afford education or health care for their kids- but they had no problem with socialist tax breaks for the Japs?
jorge0214 3 years ago
i will personally spit in Gettelfinger's face
lordvader5473 3 years ago
poor poor union workers. poor poor union workers.
lordvader5473 3 years ago 5
GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour. $61942.40 Gross per year
Toyota says it pays $30 per hour.
$62400.00 Gross per year
The US Consumer and Tax Payer also subsidize Japanese and German Health Care and Military protection.
marniespeaks 3 years ago
Try telling the entire story: The averagle hourly labor rate (for wages and bennies and retirement, etc.) for GM is $75; for Toyota ... it is only $47, this according to the 2008 Harbour Report. And who do we thank for the soaring labor costs faced by the US Big 3?
The UAW.
SImply speaking, when a company cannot sell enough units to cover all costs and create profit, then that company must make adjustments. The first adjustment is to lower costs.
coyeti 3 years ago
As a Republican living in Michigan, I keep saying, "Do the wrong thing, please!" Of course, this bailout would be dick up everybody's else asses in this country, but please, Washington, do the wrong thing.
howapel 3 years ago
You assume much by telling me that I do not understand the complexities of life..... How in the world do you know this to be true?
Principles are very simple. The problem lies with a culture that wants the freedom to choose behavior and then to customize the consequences.
CUlture is complex because we violate principles and feel entitled to escape the the consequences.
coyeti 3 years ago
once again, it is the middle class of this country against evil power of the rushie herbert hoover neocons ... and the neocons have sided with the japan and germany again ... they have voted to shut down the big three ... because they believe that the workers and not upper mangement should be paid like the chinese ... no, no ... management must show the way and accept chinese upper management wages first ... $10/hr and give up their $25M/year salaries ... the rushies are anti-worker
AgnesBojaxhiu2000 3 years ago
Rushies.... neocons... herbert hoover neocons... workers.... chinese....
Your stereotyping ignorance completely undermines any point you might be trying to make. The issue is that in a free market economy, it is incumbent on (a) business to reach profitability. The government has not duty, call, responsibility, obligation to rescue private enterprise with tax dollars.
All involved in a struggling business must participate in the solution. Pay cuts across the board, restructure via BK.
coyeti 3 years ago
All it is, the government wants to shut down all the unions. Dem's as well as Rep's.
In other words a forced pay cut or a forced strike.
As Reagan busted the unions. Obama and the Dem's want to do the samething.
ANGLEBOOT 3 years ago
Oh please.... to make the unions out as the innocent victims of some governmental conspiracy requires as much ignorance and naivete as is needed to believe that government has your best interests at heart.
The unions brought this on themselves, as did workers who voted to unionize. When companies and industries are unable to be profitable at least in part to the high union-driven overhead, they must cut overhead to survive.
Get a clue. Better that all take pay cuts than all are laid off.
coyeti 3 years ago
Are you that dumb to think auto makers are not making a profit. Funny at how they spend million a day on Tv,newpaper and billbord ads a day. Not month or year but per day. They can't do that unless they are making a profit.
it more of the greedy rich wanting more free money from the tax payers.
ANGLEBOOT 3 years ago
Angleboot, perhaps you should revisit economics 101. When a business/corp/industry owes more money than it brings in, then that organization is making no profit. They are making DEBT.
Where have you been over the last 6 months.... Homeowners buy themselves nice toys they cannot afford and are losing their homes because their outgo exceeds their income.
This is a simple and universal principle. Spending credit doesn't equal creating profit.
But surely you are not so dumb as to not get it.
coyeti 3 years ago
As I said before, if union worker take a $3 $4 dollar pay cut. So should all the nonunion workers as well. Being that the nonunion companies bid the same amount for the same work to be done, but pay their workers less. don't blame the union workers, put the blame were it belong. On the people that are willing to work for Mexican wages. Then whine to the government for "CHANGE". Or for free handout s in welfare. Free heathcare.
ANGLEBOOT 3 years ago
IMHO, your idea is asinine and juvenile. The unions and their members created the problem for themselves. The nonunion shops deal with their own issues. But exorbitant costs are most likely not one of those non-union issues.
Greed drives unions. The consequences of that greed must be paid by the greedy.
Did you mother spank you for your sibling's misbehavior?
coyeti 3 years ago
Obama should insist Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes and the other foreign car companies close their American manufacturing plants and take them back home.
If Obama does not believe in outsourcing then those car companies must go home.
Next step is for all American car companies to move manufacturing to Mexico.
UAW, Merry Christmas :-)
JSMcCainRocks 3 years ago
Ron Gettelfinger is in the hip pocket of the Obama camp. And has been. This same people he push for unuion memembers to vote for are the same people wanting union memembers to take a cut in pay and benefits. Then have the balls to stand up and blame it on Senate GOP. When it is known that more democratic senate voted against it unless union memebers take a cut in pay and benefits.
Lets just make Ron Gettelfinger and all union union officials as well as all democratic senators take a cut in pay
ANGLEBOOT 3 years ago
Spoken like a true proletariat. Arise masses. LOL.
coyeti 3 years ago
a soon a union or NE or oil issue pops up all those former crazy spammer folks is expert on this. kind of like it is your job.
arguments here are the same as in europe a year ago.
is it fun to drive company PR or just work?
you know nothing about work unions organizing, but just in case you ring the ceo bell.
are you out of your mind or just stupid!?
Both!
Realizalize 3 years ago
How about Union members getting paid the national average salary of a college professor who has eight years of university education?
It would be a pay cut but how could anyone call it unfair?
BellaAngelique 3 years ago
Since the UAW hr cost avg is $70 & Asian transplants R $38,why doesnt that reflect in the price? & where does that much profit go? Why do Senators that have Conservative Capitalistic Ideologies enjoy Foreign Auto Co. so much in their states that run cheaper because of the benefit of having Gov. Socialized Health Care? But would never support it for their own people...Beside the fact The U.S. Fed Gov. pays 500 million 2 foreign Auto Co. 2 build factories in the U.S. & UAW pay is LESS than Toyota
phildog67 3 years ago
Fuck unions especially UAW, this isn't the 1930s, they are completely unnecessary and are a cancer on American industry.
Also, how is this bailout fair to American workers building cars for import brands?
ieodksnw787 3 years ago
You obviously have no idea what unions do...
FilterSelect 3 years ago
besides coercing companies to pay more for unskilled labor....no i don't.
Chikusoo 3 years ago
Maybe you should then find out, rather than remain ignorant. Though I doubt you will...
FilterSelect 3 years ago
The gov. has been busting unions, it's time to strike and stand up to the CEO's and the corporate hitlers! UAW need to strike and hold the line! Strenght in Numbers, don't take a pay cut unless the leaders start first!
KamikazeKoscki 3 years ago
Are you joking? How about the UAW letting Iron Worker Unions do tool change overs during shut downs with out having to match workers, sucking double time out of the auto industry while playing cards, or reading books, or sleeping. How about not paying 95% wages to laid off workers. How about earning your money. With out a union re-structure the industry is doomed.
rleblanc68 3 years ago
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LOL. You show a striking ignorance of our current situation and of the marketplace. Strike against companies that are insolvent and on the verge of collapse in order to preserve the jobs? You show the ridiculous reasoning of the unions and exemplify the very reason why most AMericans do not like unions.
Across the board, car makers need to implement pay cuts as part of the survival package. Execs, worker bees, everybody. That is but the first painful step to survival.
coyeti 3 years ago
GM play the tax system like a Harp, they allow the American tax payers pay 240 million in taxes for them, and GM pay NO taxes! The are almost insolvent because they never to make eco-friendly cars, they went along with the big oil companies own by the Rothchilds to make gas hog suvs. The elite CEO's and board members want a job also, if the workers strike they lose money as well. Workers wages have not kept up with inflation, UAW should making $50 an hour, not losing their health care & pensions
KamikazeKoscki 3 years ago
Conspiracy theories such as yours are similar to an a**hole; everybody has one, nobody wants to hear it spew, and it produces nothing but... well, you get the idea.
GM is insolvent because their production costs are too high. As to the 'ecocars', how is it that producing these more expensive cars will cause more people to buy them in the throes of a declining economy?
And $50 per hour? To assemble cars? You are delusional. GM labor costs are approximately $75 per hour (wages & bennies).
coyeti 3 years ago
CEO of GM makes 14 times What CEO of toyota makes.. but we are to be outrraged the employees get double what toyota employees make
KamikazeKoscki 3 years ago
I have not checked to confirm your numbers. Even so, should your numbers be correct, you play a fool's game with your 'either/or' rationale.
The issue is not whether executive greed is more or less significant and repulsive than worker bee greed. The issue is that greed on all levels has crushed the Big3. To fix the corps, resolve the greed on all levels.
We are outraged that execs take what they do when their companys' flounder, and outraged that workers take what they do from failing corps.
coyeti 3 years ago
Where the gov't COULD help repair the industry is to undo the ridiculous CAFE standards that increase the unit costs. Instead of throwing tax dollars at insolvency, try backing off Mr and Mrs Washington! You were NEVER meant to be so involved in screwing with privately owned business.
But I will not hold my breath until the gov't does what they need to do, which is kick the UAW in the teeth, and back off with regulations. UAW = democratic votes = power.
coyeti 3 years ago
This year, Wagoner will pull down a salary of $2.2 million, in addition to other CEO perks. And last year, Wagoner's total compensation was $14.4 million. That works out to $39,452.05 per day, including weekends. (Note that in 2007, GM lost a staggering $38.7 billion).....
For example, the estimated pay of Toyota's CEO in 2005 was under $1 million.
KamikazeKoscki 3 years ago
The GOP had control of both houses of Congress plus the White House from when Dubya was sworn in in January 2001 until January 2007 and the only notch on their belt they can claim is the Iraq War!..No comprehensive energy policy, no health care reform, failure to fund no child left behind and a financial crisis helped from deregulation of Wall St! Hey, but at least they didn't pull the same campaign tactics to get Saxby Chambliss re-elected this time as they did against Max Cleland in 2002.
wyzguy333 3 years ago
These guys are Anti-American propping up JP & DE companies over US industry in a crisis
They have sold the American People out like Blago tried to sell Obama's Senate seat
Money is their master, not country or flag
Bush's bailoutwill only line the pockets of the CEOs
GM is planning to send $1 billion of this "lone" to Brazil
Germany wants a piece of the US bailout now & Japan has already given economic help to their people
What they are asking for in the US is a tax payers revolt
marniespeaks 3 years ago 5
watch?v=sMVKssLkO8Q
marniespeaks 3 years ago
watch?v=xKBBuIArvPI
marniespeaks 3 years ago
Fuck the UAW and fuck GM.
whiskers78753 3 years ago
UAW new hires make about $15 an hour, close to the starting wage of a Toyota worker in the US; who boasts their US workers make $16 an hour
US Toyota workers have about the same health care coverage as UAW; which has been slashed these past 8 years, but Toyota workers in the US could have better
They don't because Toyota must pay, under law, Japanese Health Care not American
You pay more for a Toyota because you are SUBSIDIZING Japanese Health Care with your US dollars
Think about it!
marniespeaks 3 years ago
Miss Marnie, I believe you did not understand my facts as I related them. The figures I cited include all expenses of employment amortized on an hourly basis. When one adds the cost of retirement contributions, medical coverage, vacations, holidays, etc., etc., the numbers I cited are accurate.
UAW employees, whether new hires or journeymen, make a very handsome compensation. And the cost of labor broken out per unit sold gives Toyota a $600 advantage.
coyeti 3 years ago
Your Facts MISS COYETI?
When was I talking to you about your facts?
I do not see my comment as a reply to yours, but suspect you pull your facts out of you ass like you do comments you think are responding to yours.
bugger off bully!
marniespeaks 3 years ago
Marnie, the dialogue here was reasoned and interesting, even between disagreeing parties, until you showed up. I have been factual and courteous to you.
You have insulted, intimidated, and told people they are wrong without proving anything. Reading through the string here, it is evident that you don't comprehend what it is you read. Perhaps you have such strong opinions that you miss the point.
This is not meant as an insult. Merely a challenge to you to read more carefully.
coyeti 3 years ago
do they not realize its gonna cost trillions if we get into a recession which is what will happen if the auto company's aren't bailed out.
blink4ever87 3 years ago
Ron Gettelfinger is a lying idiot. The Senate Republicans are correct. The ONE AND ONLY thing that will allow the auto industry to remain viable, and avoid collapse, is an IMMEDIATE reduction in the wages and benefits of UAW members. If this is not done, even a bailout won't save them. If Gettelfinger has his way, changes won't occur until 2011. The industry will be dead by then (without REPEATED bailouts). Unsustainable business model. It IS that simple. Change it now, or lose all.
rgeorge9260 3 years ago
i don't blame the worker and i don't think the workers should take a pay cut i think the higher ups should take the pay cuts.
rell127 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
rell127, the FACT is that the 'higher ups'' wages, if cancelled entirely, won't make but a slight dent in the problem.
Do you seriously not realize this?
coyeti 3 years ago
So your telling me a person who is making 45 million shouldn't take atleat a 2 to 3% pay cut to help save his company while the workers take a significant pay cut?? The worker are doing what they were paid to do who told the higher up to do what the oil companies said??
rell127 3 years ago
No, you did not read my other comments here. All who work for the troubled corporations need to make sacrifices if the company is to survive. But to infer that the tens of billions of dollars needed to bring the Big3 to solvency would result from corporate pay cuts is, well.... it is just naive.
Believing that is akin to believing that imposing higher taxes on the wealthiest 5% of Americans will fix our 10 trillion dollar deficit. Neither is true; they are simply a practice in class envy
coyeti 3 years ago
No it's not I don't want Congress to bail them out at all I personally think the Oil companies should not our government and this isn't class envy it's what the big 3 did to get themselves this situation.
rell127 3 years ago
Arkham is your typical moron who doesn't even know that he has 40rh week because of unions. A pension,paid vacation,sick days, and a fair wage. No wonder why this country is ranked 47# in education because of people like arkam1999.
Dblock7185 3 years ago
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No, our country is ranked lower in education because our government runs education, acting as the schoolhouse pimp for the NEA. Teachers' unions are a prime example of why we DO NOT need unions. They have ensured that the education bar has been lowered. They protect the substandard worker with ideas like tenure, sacrificing the student for the sake of the employee.
No nonunion business can get away with protecting useless employees that mistreat the client.
Unions are socialistic mechanisms
coyeti 3 years ago
Well, Dblock7185 I don't have the luxury of a 40 hour work week, I typically work 50 hours a week, whether it be days, nights or holidays. I don't have a pension option or paid sick days either, and if I don't work my children don't have health insurance. And regarding educational standards, if you really believe that tripe that you are spewing I would ascertain that you are the product of said system.
arkham1999 3 years ago
I can't feel sorry for a single one of them, bunch of greedy bastards. On one end you have the greedy execs, living in their ivory tower collecting untold millions. And on the other side you have a bunch of whiny, spoiled workers who make at least twice as much a I (and a lot of other people) do working overtime with sub par working conditions. All of them need to grow the heck up and stop looking for a handout, a job that makes less money is better than no job at all!!!
arkham1999 3 years ago
For decades the US has had cheaper gas prices than most of the rest of the world. This has lead to US car manufactures concentrating on big heavy gas guzzelers that people who care about the environment dont want, and people who dont give a dam about the environment cant afford to run. Poor Management Id say.
Prunesqualer 3 years ago
they can self appoint all they want but the fact is Americans don't give czars authority or any credibility ..in case he didn't get the memo
WhoRonPaul 3 years ago
If the concern is american debt and credit why not do a all debt forgiveness for the american tax payer. Tommorow when you wake up all your debt is forgiven, mortgage, car loans, medical bills, credit cards, all forgiven. The billions of dollars we are giving failures know goes to the American people it is our money any way...Imagine what you could do with your full paycheck.
rhenry501 3 years ago
If I do a shitty job and loose money in my private bussiness no one bails me out. Big bussiness runs a shitty shop, and then expects us to bail them out. If I know I will have no one to get a hand out from then I work HARDER. Big bussiness screws all of us over, then they expect us to help them, I say let them fail. You fail you learn. America is not a country that should reward ineptness look how bad it did when it let Bush steal the election. This plan was BS, the bank Bailout is BS reap it
rhenry501 3 years ago 3
did you notice that the auto companies themselves aren't complaining about the UAW? It's ONLY the gop senators doing the whining.
how come the automakers aren't standing up for the senators.. clearly the gop proposal was a piece of crap the auto companies knew was designed to fail. I think the execs knew they were being stabbed in the back by the gop senators.
KataVideo 3 years ago
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The Big3 are companies who are spending more to produce product than they are taking in profit on sales of product. They wouldn't know a good idea if it hit them in the head.
The UAW and other unions like them are one of the main reasons AMerican production goes offshore. We live in a global marketplace; business must be able to compete price with imported goods, and with our own exports.
Answer this: how does a company lower its prices to compete globally when unions drive wages higher?
coyeti 3 years ago
shame on CONGRESS - they prop up foreign automakers and hate the American worker - they want the US to turn into a third world economy
These are the people who get the best health care, full pensions after only a few years work and a pay check that's 3 times what the average American workers make from ALL provide by the American tax payer.
Time to take the country back.
marniespeaks 3 years ago
marniespeaks, "shame on CONGRESS - they prop up foreign automakers and hate the American worker.."
okay, but please note it's always the republicans who lead this stuff. teh democrats' crime is being gutless and cowardly and refusing to stand up to it.
KataVideo 3 years ago 3
do you mean I have to choose to side with the cowards or the bullies?
no thanks!
How about the American People join together and stand up to BOTH!?
What are you doing next May Day in DC?
marniespeaks 3 years ago
How much does Toyota CEO make? How much does GM CEO make? How about the top 10 officers? All this talk about nickels and dimes from the UAW is disgusting. The workers on the front lines are not the problem. It's the bad marketing, products, and business decisions made by the upper management.
End of story.
flintmi 3 years ago
That's not exactly accurate. The UAW, as all unions do, dramatically pump up the price companies have to pay for their workers. This is why unions can be a bad thing. They have so much power, they can demand outrageous wages and companies like GM simply have to roll with the punches. Unions are great for employee protection, but very bad for business.
This is why, for example, CalTrans workers can make $40+ an hour just holding a freaking flag. I'm surprised the industry has lasted so long
pokerslut530 3 years ago
wow, my grandfather, father in law and wife, that make $22 an hour at GM is too much?
While the CEO's and executives make millions, i dont get you people, why is it that the workers and union members take all the blame for this? Its management that makes 450 times as much as these people. While my wife to a paycut and gave concessions......the president of GM gave himself a raise and a bonus, that makes sense.
But i do agree with you, how has the industry lasted so long?
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
They are on the low end of the pay scale, simply put. As coyeti said in other comments, the average wage for UAW employees is $76 an hour.
It's a good question as to how it's lasted this long... I wish I knew. Maybe the government has already been propping them up without public disclosure of it..? That's pretty much the only way I can think of.
pokerslut530 3 years ago
Shame on you!
"The $78 figure, however, includes hourly wages, medical benefits and pension payments for hourly workers, along with medical benefits and pension payments for hundreds of thousands of retired workers."
Do you hate the elderly after a life time of work and dedication to your education and safety?
marniespeaks 3 years ago
The wages and benefits of hourly UAW workers not counting retirees, actually amount to about $60 an hour. If only wages are counted, veteran workers make about $26 an hour
New hires, meantime, make about $15 an hour, close to the starting wage of Toyota's US workers
Toyota by law has to provide Universal Health Care to their countrymen in Japan
Do you hate your countrymen?
Who is watching out for you Japan?
Who is protecting your borders Japan?
Who pays local taxes so you can have job Japan?
marniespeaks 3 years ago
"As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five", an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour plus benefits that bring the total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour."
Source: National Review
pokerslut530 3 years ago
outsourcing mowing a law in the US - how exactly do you do that?
Get some facts then Stop being Anti-American.
marniespeaks 3 years ago
UHHHHHHHHHHH YOU HIRE A LANDSCAPER you braindead fuck?
Wow you really are fucking stupid aren't you? Did you really just type that and hit "Post Comment" ???? Simply astonishing.
pokerslut530 3 years ago
hahaha no wonder!
Jesus Christ the National Review!
You're kidding - you read that trash?
That mag fell apart after Buckley retired
Get a real sources not brainwashing made up conservative bullshite - that rag isn't even conservative any more
and try learning to think on your own
I can't believe someone actually reads that HA! I hope you don't pay for it.
marniespeaks 3 years ago
(cont.) "One blue-collar Delphi worker interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000)."
Yeah, no problems with the union, right? Moronic fucker. RESEARCH! Otherwise STFU.
pokerslut530 3 years ago
yeah because he probably works 90 hours a week. He probably only makes $20 an hour, but the company gives away OT like its fucking candy.
I worked at Union Pacific railroad for a time. I only made $17 bucks an hour, but since I sometimes worked 15-20 days straight. One year I cleared $80k.
God forbid I get paid overtime, or get paid double time when i came in all those christmas's
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
My total figure is about a third of that, why the heck should I feel sorry for them?? It is not my job to give them more of my money.
arkham1999 3 years ago
because maybe they prop up our economy. Its not just the car company that will die, it will be the suppliers, the car dealers, the diner across the street that serves employees at lunch, the insurance companies that represent them, the pharmacy where the employee goes to get drugs, the shoe company where he buys his work boots, the tire company that puts tires on the cars, the radio company that puts radios in the cars, the leather maker that makes the seats, the muffler company that supplies it
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
Shame on me for what, stating facts? You're the one skewing data here bud. First its entirely illogical to wrap into the figure the cost of pensions for retired workers. Stop being foolish and use your brain. The pension payments included in that figure are for the person working, towards their pension when they retire. Shame on ME? Shame on you for not using some freaking common sense then having the gall to insult me. Sheesh.
pokerslut530 3 years ago
you don't have the facts - and you apparently you never learned math.
If you want to put an end to all pensions then let's start with anything you get and then Congress.
marniespeaks 3 years ago
You're a douchebag and a half.
Explain to me how it makes MATHEMATICAL sense to roll the costs of retired pensioners into the figure titled "AVERAGE HOURLY WAGE" ????? Seriously, pull your head out of your ASS.
I realize if these companies crash, so do their pensions, and that sucks for sure, but the rest of America shouldn't be held responsible solely so a few hundred thousand people still have pensions. Sorry, America doesn't work that way.
Profit first, people last. Where you been?
pokerslut530 3 years ago
the cost of pensions for retired workers!!!!
They ARE FUCKING GONE DIPSHIT!!! My grandfathers pension was taken away 4 years ago......there is no pensions left to be paid because THEY ARE FUCKING GONE. the only pensions left are executive pensions.
Obviously you have no family members affected by this so you have no clue. go live in your world of puppies and kittens.
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
Did you even read or are you so blind by your rage that you simply had to place your raving lunatic outburst to my comment? I never disputed weather or not they are gone - AT ALL. This foolish person is claiming the $75/hr average wage INCLUDES, SOMEHOW, the amount of money spent on retiree pensions evenly divided among the current workers.
Don't call me a dipshit when you can't even exercise basic reading comprehension you buffoon. It's sad to hear your of families future, but c'mon now.
pokerslut530 3 years ago
"Shame on you!"
"Do you hate the elderly after a life time of work and dedication to your education and safety?"
Miss Marnie, your bullying and innuendos really have no place here. Comments such as yours that I have quoted here are merely tools for intimidation. Let's talk facts.
When I cited the facts about CURRENT Big3 hourly labor costs, I was not critiquing senior care or anything else. I merely highlighted the diff between a profitable Toyota and an insolvent GM.
coyeti 3 years ago
Look, you don't even know who you are talking to in this thread.
Looking at your comments here you're way too needy, please go bother someone else.
marniespeaks 3 years ago
How funny. Marnie shows up here after the rest of us are already in dialogue, gets rude, makes rude comments, misreads comments, fails to comprehend ideas, and then resolves her embarrassment by flinging more insults.
Marnie, I ALWAYS know exactly to whom I speak and EXACTLY what I am saying. This is so I don't end up looking like an opinionated buffoon who has nothing but preference to offer.
I'm just saying....
coyeti 3 years ago
There is NO union scale that tops out at $70 an hour. The hourly scale ends at $29, then you're on salary and in a supervisory role. My father in law is a union rep, and i was one for 3 years at the Teamsters, so we should know.
There is no union wage that pays hourly at $70....you are out of your fucking mind.
And its funny that they like to add the fact that benefits are added into that. My wife got no health benefits, so yeah she was straight $13 an hour.
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
Crowdaddy should read more carefully. The $70 to $75 per hour labor costs for GM INCLUDES BENNIES, RETIREMENT, etc. That is why it is called LABOR COSTS. NOBODY HERE said that is the hourly wage of the worker.
The source of the information for that hourly LABOR COST is documented in one of my earlier posts.
Ironic that somebody with union experience like crowdaddy is so ignorant. Wonder what that tells us....
I'm just saying....
coyeti 3 years ago
well, that is actually a good thing of me.........i spend more time doing MY JOB than reading 250+ posts on fucking youtube.....i usually only respond to people that reply to my posts, i dont read every single post........i do have a life outside the computer, ya know my union "business"
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
I can appreciate your unwillingness to read all posts here.... but you must understand that to jump in midstream without understanding what has been said doesn't make you look like the brightest bulb in the box....
I'm just saying....
coyeti 3 years ago
i dont care about whether or not people here think im smart or not........you dont sign my paycheck and nothing you do or say changes whether or not im employed or unemployed...however this GM mess affects all of us...so really im done with this conversation, its old
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
The flaw in your reasoning is that there are not that many CEOs and Execs. Most Big3 employees are worker bees. I agree that a company that is losing money cannot afford large rewards to anybody, worker bee or exec. But cutting exec perks is only a drop in the bucket.
coyeti 3 years ago
tell that to the ASSISTANT VICE PRESIDENT OF THE VICE PRESIDENT OF MARKETING lol.
there are so many bullshit, crony positions in GM, that its insane. Wow, the UAW has assemblers, forklift operators and warehouse workers.
Management has the assistant to the assistant of the vice president in accounting and about 100 other useless "title" jobs.
crowdaddy13 3 years ago
And when a down turn arrives to restore reality to free markets, many of these apparently unnecessary positions are eliminated. Tasks are transferred to remaining staff who become overworked in the process of retaining their employment. That will happen.
But my prior point stands. The bulk of labor cost in these corporations is for the 'worker bee' and not the executive.
coyeti 3 years ago
6 weeks vacation, that'd be joy. As an RN, I've never gotten more than 2 weeks.
joyville2 3 years ago 3
I think the wage cuts should be all workers, not just in the factory and on assembly lines, but the engineers, transportation, and on up to the CEOs. Make them produce safe, environmental positive cars that people can afford to pat cash for.
joyville2 3 years ago
GG Michigan, I am so screwed now :[
OddityX 3 years ago
dont get How any company in the us can go under ppl work what 60h 80h weeks, have limited sickdays etc. and still all you here is that the companys are going down cus of the market.
Take care of your workers and they will Preform better and better and THAT is good for the nation and the companys.
and with the Big three want state cash (from the people) and they say that they will cut jobs, if you get state funds DONT FIRE THE PEOPLE.
bornhigh11 3 years ago 2
Exactly, as the old saying goes..."you can gather more bee's with honey"...in case some of you don't get it, with sweetness.
Creatorisintherain 3 years ago
The problem is less about employee performance than it is about the factors that make producing a Big3 vehicle so expensive. The question you must ask is 'why are costs so high.' This is the root of the problem. Detroit is going bankrupt; ergo, Detroit is spending MORE to produce cars than it is receiving by selling cars.
The UAW employees have good bennies. The effective cost to GM, Ford, etc., is $75 per hour for wages, bennies, retirement, etc.
coyeti 3 years ago
Let the Auto Industry COLLAPSE.
IT is becaue of the auto industry that we have horrible gas mileage.
THINK my fellow SHEEP, THINK.
FORA TV , the world is rethinking.
HomoGeneyes 3 years ago
I was floored when Katie Couric on the CBS evening news asked him if he thought 5 week vacation that UAW workers get is "excessive". In European countries they get vacations that long and longer, and it's mandated by the government! And they seem to be competitive in the global economy! How freakin ridiculous that the regular working class joe is being asked to pay for the bailout by taking a pay cut and working longer hours!!!!
bearuce 3 years ago 5
For example, Germany (think BMW) has a mandated 6 week vacation! They also give their citizens healthcare! Everyone in America should have this. We aren't getting enough rest and we are stressed out and sick and unable to access medical care without going bankrupt. We can't be expected to get healthy and competitive with this work til you drop type lifestyle.
bearuce 3 years ago 5
Well put!
TroyShellie 3 years ago 2
Agree. However, what employer is going to give that much vacation and health benefits too??? Maybe WalMart,HA!
joyville2 3 years ago
That's why it obviously needs to be mandated since these companies don't have the foresight to do it on their own.
bearuce 3 years ago
...enough, let the auto industry file chapter 11...few times I agree with Republicans...but them asking wage cuts from the union is total Bullshit!...typial republican anti working class mind set!
hajqbvii 3 years ago 4
According to US Sen Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, "In 2007, GM sold 9.37 million cars worldwide. Toyota, that same year, sold 9.37 million cars worldwide. GM lost 38.7 billion. Toyota made 17.7 billion."
Perhaps you might explain to the rest of us why Toyota profits 17.7 billion dollars to GM's 38.7 billion dollar loss... and both companies produce approx the same number of units.....
Obvious answer: Problem number one, the unions.
Your thoughts?
coyeti 3 years ago
I'd like to know the details of this too.
joyville2 3 years ago 2
Here is the rub: only a government would consider giving the investors' capital to businesses that are not only insolvent but show no promise of future profitability. No bank would do this. Even a 'hard money' lender would be hard pressed to undertake such fiscal foolishness
Yet we in the US have inexperienced economic/corporate ignorants like Frank and Dodd telling us what to do, and telling the Auto industry how to do it.
Yet these clowns orchestrated the Fannie/Freddi collapse...
Insanity
coyeti 3 years ago
You have got to be kidding! The workers just build what they're told to build, be it excellent machines or piles of crap. Obviously the Japanese have expended more effort in the area of engineering rather than wasting so much energy trying to find cheap labor in third world countries!
bearuce 3 years ago
Also the Japanese treat their workers like FAMILY and the workers see their companies as their HOME. Maybe if GM started treating its workforce as an ASSET rather than something it buys at a cheap rate and then disposes of when it finds something cheaper it might create better morale and there would be no need for a union in the first place!
bearuce 3 years ago 2
"Maybe if GM started treating its workforce as an ASSET rather than something it buys at a cheap rate"
No GM employee is hired at a 'cheap rate.' And investing $75 per hour on average for a benefits package makes an employee an obvious asset.
Your comments are inconsistent with reality.
coyeti 3 years ago
Wrong. I live in MI (and have all my life) and not only have I seen GM shut down its plants one by one (and not clean up its environmental mess behind it) I have also seen even the smaller shops, THAT DON'T HAVE AND NEVER HAVE HAD ANY UNIONS, that supply parts to GM, shut down and moving to Mexico for cheap labor. It is not because of the unions. It is because of agreements like NAFTA (gee, Ross Perot was right!) and unethical treatment of workers in third world countries.
bearuce 3 years ago
But you miss the simple point. WHy would a company go offshore if it can stay local and be profitable? The answer: They don't leave in that case.
Nonunion employers have to compete with union bennies. Businesses do not operate in a vacuum but within industrial communities.
And who are you to say what is ethical in foreign nations and what is not? A factory worker in China earns a fraction of that earned by workers in the US, but that wage is a decent wage in their nation.
coyeti 3 years ago
Actually you are missing the obvious point and that is greed. They can make more by treating Mexican workers unethically. I can say anything I want about any other nation because to me unethical behavior knows no national boundaries. A national boundary is simply an arbitrary line drawn by human beings. We are all human beings on this Earth and deserve to live in a health clean and safe environment.
bearuce 3 years ago