5.4, part 1 of 6: The Evolution of the Afterlife

[ElProximo]

Uh no.

Abraham comes directly out of a culture that is massively obsessed with the afterlife. Moses is raised and educated in a culture that was just about obsessed with afterlife.

So this idea that later Jews 'discover' this idea is so blatantly ignorant I wonder how you could block that out of your research?

Why are YOU removing the 3 examples?

You have 3 examples and then dismiss them because they are just 3 examples.

Yikes, the cognitive dissonance and ignorance of Atheists has no bounds.

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

> Abraham comes directly out of a culture that is massively obsessed with the afterlife.

Which biblical passages show that Abraham's culture was "massively obsessed" with the afterlife?

The three passages I cited--2 Kings 2:1, Genesis 5:24, and Samuel 28--are stray undeveloped passages.

Where does Moses talk about going to heaven or hell, or any kind of afterlife?

There are LOTS of OT passages about God's rewards & wrath, but they take place here on earth.

[ElProximo]

@ToddAllenGates

Do you know anything about ancient world history? Sumeria was one of the most impressive civilizations in human history and besides their infatuation with astrology they were obsessed with after-life. Almost as much as their cousins the Egyptians who were all but a massive 'afterlife club'.

So your idea that Moses or Abraham 'discovered the idea' or 'later borrowed' is just plain silly.

They would have been soaked in it as a fundamental presumption their entire lives.

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

> [Sumerians & Egyptians] were obsessed with after-life

You're only proving my point of the contrast between the Sumerians & Egyptians (and in this series I cite from their sacred texts) and the Hebrews. The pagans believed in an afterlife; the early Hebrews didn't. The Judeo-Christian bible goes through a change: "there's no afterlife" vs. "there IS an afterlife," and it's reasonable to assume that the Jews/Hebrews were influenced by the pagans.

[ElProximo]

@ToddAllenGates

The Hebrews did believe in an afterlife according to their texts. What I am showing you is that the 'silence' is better explained by a presumption of some sort of afterlife rather than nothing at all.

It is unreasonable to assume they were 'later influenced' because it is from the very beginning they are not just 'influenced' but fully immersed and actually 'part of' their surrounding culture. If there is any 'influencing' it is right then and there from the start.

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

> the 'silence' is better explained by a presumption of some sort of afterlife rather than nothing at all.

I see no reason to interpret 'silence' as a belief ... but I can see why you do.

I think we've reached something of a dead end here as far as each of us presenting arguments that don't convince the other.

But I thank you for your feedback, and offer my advance apologies if I fail to respond again (altho I'll respond to comments on different videos / different topics).

[ElProximo]

@ToddAllenGates

What you can do is go and correct your mistakes. I have convinced you of some errors in your thinking and pointed out that unique cognitive dissonance in your reasoning.

What you wish to do is pretend it didn't happen and carry on like it didn't happen. OK.

If that is what you need to do to protect your belief system then nobody can stop you.

(though I would still like to know why you discount 3 references to afterlife just because you 'felt like it' lol)

[BillKiernan]

@ElProximo before you ask people to correct their mistakes, you need to provide evidence for you claims. so far, you've done nothing but assert things.

[ElProximo]

@BillKiernan

No, I do not need to provide you evidence for 'my claims' and can choose to only point at some mistakes.

So what?

[rad886655]

What a hunk if junk. 'two sentences' say in an old book there's an after life written by the loopiest of the day about some kid who may have lived into his 30s who magically healed a handful of ppl then died to 'save souls' for the next 2000yrs -WTF! How is that heroic and ever since is nothing but a test to c if we believe. What about those civilizations who weren't nearby - on islands in the middle of nowhere worshipping volcanic mountains. Or 'greek gods' which ruled all before that. Then al

[ToddAllenGates]

@rad886655

> What about those civilizations who weren't nearby

I guess "God's Perfect Love" is highly regional!

[rad886655]

@ToddAllenGates lol yeh his such a fair guy haha. Fuck that's destructively low thinker

[scoobysmacks]

And if there is an afterlife, dont you have to seperate the good from the bad, if you throw everyone back in the same circle it will be like earth all over again.

[scoobysmacks]

I have also pondered the meaning of ecclesiastes 3 and have come to the conclusion that it refers only to our physical body and not our spiritual entity. After all isnt it our faith and higher intelligence that currently seperates us from the animals. Apes and primates are the closest to our species as far as intelligence, but when was the last time you witnessed them worship something or someone they have never seen before. Some say they worship us, but they can see us and what we offer.

[ToddAllenGates]

@scoobysmacks

> I have also pondered the meaning of ecclesiastes 3 and have come to the conclusion that it refers only to our physical body and not our spiritual entity.

I think one *has* to come to that conclusion if you wish to reconcile these passages with the rest of the bible. But when you look at what Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 by itself, I find the meaning very clear: when you're dead you're dead, and fancies of an afterlife are wishful thinking.

[1onetheone]

our choices in this life determine where we will go afterlife.

Will we choose the gift of life though jesus? or will we choose death by rejecting the truth. It is indeed our choice.

Jesus bless you

[ToddAllenGates]

@1onetheone

> Will we choose the gift of life though jesus? or will we choose death

A Muslim could make the same argument: will you submit to Allah's will, or do you choose to send yourself to hell? It's your choice!

So could a Hindu: will you obey Brahman's laws of the caste system, or do you choose to risk reincarnation as a cockroach--your choice!

Ponder why you find those threats unconvincing ... and once you come to an answer, you will know my reply to your threat.

[Imirror1]

@1onetheone You don't chose death,death choses everybody and you're never truly alive if you don't accept you're truly dead. What truth are you talking about?

[1onetheone]

@Imirror1 We choose death by not seeking forgiveness for our sins for all sinners will have their part in the lake of fire.

Thats what I mean by death, eternal separation from our God in fire.

You see when you believe in Jesus' forgiveness of your sins that he offers you (he died for your sins and the world on the cross) And accept him as you Lord, he is faithfull and gives you a reborn spirit inside which will live always with God after your body dies. If you continue to follow this spirit:>>>

[1onetheone]

@1onetheone you will live holy and free from all your previous sin cause Jesus frees you from them. Then when Jesus comes or you die, you will be white and holy before God and live in the house of the Lord forever.

This is the stakes, God said "He who sins must die" But Jesus said, " All sinners who believe in me will inherit eternal life and I will never wipe his name out of the book of life"

So the call is always the same REPENT and Turn to God, believe in Jesus his son!

[XLR8RZZZZZZZZZ]

No disrespect, but u have NO knowledge of the bible. Yo interpreted the bible with an evolutionist/atheist mind which has no contradiction to the bible! Before you jump to conclusion, try understanding the bible, the PROPER way!!!

[ToddAllenGates]

@XLR8RZZZZZZZZZ

> Yo interpreted the bible with an evolutionist/atheist mind

I believe my interpretation was based on what the text really says. "From dust you were created, to dust you shall return" is very straightforward. Similarly clear is when Moses describes God's punishments & rewards as being issued in this life only. > try understanding the bible, the PROPER way!

What could be more proper than taking the words at face value--assuming that the Bible really means what it says?

[XLR8RZZZZZZZZZ]

@ToddAllenGates you see, your saying EXACLY what am talking about, u JUST said "...assuming that the bible realy means what it says" which ur right, but ur using YOUR OWN understanding of the bible, how YOU think some bible verses are "Just" straight forward! before u judge on the bible, ask a proper Christian, or a pastor that can help u understand the bible properly !!...please :)

[ToddAllenGates]

@XLR8RZZZZZZZZZ

1 of 2:

> how YOU think some bible verses are "Just" straight forward!

Do you mean God had the bible written in a way that you have to be a believer before you can understand it? What about Deuteronomy 30: "This command I am giving you is not too difficult for you to understand. It is not up in heaven, so distant that you must ask, "Who will go to heaven and bring it down so we can hear and obey it?" and 1 Corinthians 14: "For God is not the author of confusion."

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

As a believer, can *you* tell me how to reconcile these passages with heaven?

Genesis 3:19: "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Ecclesiastes 3: "For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again."

[XLR8RZZZZZZZZZ]

@ToddAllenGates The passages u gave me are exacly wot is shown! I understand wot ur talkin bout, BUT am saying not ALL passages of the bible are straight forward; Most of them u have to think OUT-SIDE the box! wot u should do is when u read a passage,u can use ur understanding for the meaning, BUT also ask as many chrsitians as u can for the meaning of the passages, THEN u can come to ur conclusion!!

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 5:

@XLR8RZZZZZZZZZ

> ask as many chrsitians as u can for the meaning of the passages, THEN u can come to ur conclusion!!

I DO in fact do this, and what I get is a variety of answers, often contradictory.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 5:

For example, I'll ask "Why do make of all the ancient pre-Christian stories—in Zoroastrianism, Greek mythology, etc.—about male gods impregnating virgin maidens? Did the pagans just make up these stories, and then hundreds of years later, the *real* god impregnated a *real* virgin?"

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 5:

Some Christians say "well, god must have been giving the pagans *hints* of the Truth of Jesus." Other Christians disagree and say "No, SATAN must have put those stories in the pagan religions to try to FOOL you into thinking that Christianity just copied the pagans."

[ToddAllenGates]

4 of 5:

Probably the most common answer I've received from Christians is "Well, I don't understand how the pagans got hold of aspects of Christianity before Christ was born, but I don't *have* to understand: I just have faith that my religion true."

Thus my conclusion is that if there IS a god and if the Bible IS His Word, then God is a poor communicator, because Christians often disagree on what God is trying to say (thus the 30,000+ denominations of Christianity).

[ToddAllenGates]

5 of 5:

But for me, the most likely explanation is that the Bible is a collection of regional folklore, made up by a lot of independent ancient writers. So there's no reason at all to expect it to be a unified coherent piece of work: the messiness and contradictions are exactly what we expect—and exactly what we see.

But if your belief brings you happiness and peace of mind, then I have no wish to convert you.

[lizazoon]

@ToddAllenGates Any reader of the bible ( if he reads with his brain, not with his heart) has to come to your conclusion.. When reading the OT it `s so obvious, this can never be the word of a god, with an ounce of gray matter. Why would an omniscient god write an instruction book, essential to reach eternal life in allegory or even texts that need interpretation. ??

[ToddAllenGates]

@lizazoon

> When reading the OT it `s so obvious, this can never be the word of a god, [to anyone] with an ounce of gray matter.

I'm always surprised when I find believers who I feel DO have lots of gray matter! I guess we can't underestimate the power of early indoctrination ... like Dawkins say, it's like a virus that settles in the mind.

[TurpisHaereticus]

You are the best teacher, my friend. Thanks for all your hard work!

[ToddAllenGates]

> You are the best teacher, my friend

TOO kind, but thank you!

[Basaltq]

No you've got it all wrong! You're supposed to cherry pick only the good parts of the bible so that you don't embarrass God! You would be terrible theologist.

[ToddAllenGates]

> You're supposed to cherry pick only the good parts of the bible so that you don't embarrass God!

My bad!!

[vekl]

You sure do spend a lot of time preaching against the bible for someone who doesn't hold to the tenents.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 3:

> You sure do spend a lot of time preaching against the bible for someone who doesn't hold to the tenets.

Hi Vekl,

I don't think of myself as "preaching *against* the bible—I think of my videos, rather, as an examination of whether the Bible was either (a) inspired by an omniscient & omnipotent Creator of the Universe, or

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 3:

(b) just one of the thousands of Sacred Texts that resulted from man's guesswork in attempting to explain creation, suffering, rules for living, and the afterlife.

And Option "B," I think you would agree, *does* explain Hinduism, the ancient Greek & Roman religions, Islam, Scientology, etc.

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 3:

Because if the Christians are right that the Bible *really is* God's Word (and that all the competing sacred books are wrong), then I would definitely want to obey "the Word"—I am not one to oppose the Will of the Creator of the Universe!

But among so many competing claims of Divine Knowledge, is there a way to say with reasonable confidence that "this one shows evidence of being written not by omniscience, but the flawed mind of man"? This is the theme my videos explore.

[vekl]

I would say that if there is any type of logical, historical, prophetic, or archeological evidence that comports with the writtings, then it doesn't really hurt. The bible meets all of these aspects, unlike the other books. Which is why I believe that it is universal and transcedant. I firmly believe that it's the word of God.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 3:

> The bible meets all of these aspects, unlike the other books. Which is why I believe that it is universal and transcedant. I firmly believe that it's the word of God.

Any God who was breathtakingly intelligent & competent enough to single-handedly designing creation (solar systems, babies that can breathe inside & outside of the womb, etc.), would, I think it stands to reason, would also communicate with us humans via a breathtakingly intelligent and competent manner.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 3:

But what I see in the bible is something 100% explainable as the creation of man alone: it reflects man's ignorance, wisdom, cruelty, and compassion.

I watched a few of your "UNCOMFORTABLE" series and liked what I saw. Far too many Christians are either ignorant of the bible's "uncomfortable" passages, or dance around them with farfetched feel-good interpretations. I like the way you confront them head-on.

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 3:

I just subscribed to you, but I unfortunately probably won't be an active participant in the Comments section, as my current work & family demands leave little time for YouTube.

[legacy3030]

your a dip shit, get off the god kick!

[unassumption]

I find the christian response to passages such as Ecclesiastes 3 19-21, which is apparently about how... animals go to heaven :p

[ToddAllenGates]

> I find the Christian response to passages such as Ecclesiastes 3 19-21, which is apparently about how... animals go to heaven

Another example of the triumph of pre-existing assumptions over evidence! Here we have a passage in which Solomon is lamenting the notion that humans die just like the common animal, to exist no more---and True Believers will flip that upside down and say "Look: animals have the same fate as us---we *all* get to go to heaven!"

[hugesinker]

A common, curious theme of the old testament is that a person's innocent children, wives, or friends, can be judged as them. Didn't they "think of the children" back in biblical times. What if a person disobeying God hated his children and family, and wasn't a farmer... and what if they are already blind. How's that gonna work out?

[ToddGates]

> How's that gonna work out?

As the saying goes, God works in mysterious, inefficient, and breathtakingly cruel ways. (Penn Jillette)

[PrairiePie23]

Very interesting. I need to get another Bible. I think I sold mine at a garage sale.

[gigantibyte]

Awesome passages! I love it when the bible is used against itself.

[ToddAllenGates2]

> Awesome passages!

Thanks!

> I love it when the bible is used against itself.

The bible is the skeptic's best friend!

[3point14Films]

So you like how the bible contradicts itself, me to, more evidence against it.

[Teflon65]

If you study the Hellenistic world, and its influences, there is an argument that views of the afterlife evolved, as the Hellenistic world spread. Also, to jitry2, I think the Bible only says that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. I am an agnostic, who knows a couple of things, ostensibly.

[ShesuHeru93]

Interesting what you can find when you actually look isn't it?

If I am not mistaken, did not the Hebrews originally only believe in Sheol, "the grave", ie. a common death for all, regardless of who they were? Also, I believe, the idea of a 'soul' (immortal or not) was not even in their minds until they heard that idea from the Greeks, and Christians built off of that. Even Christian scholars will say that much.

[702gtzmk]

there is an afterlife, you are not only you, but your entire line, your sperm are all different variations of you, you yourself are that thing that will grow, do you understand me borg?? have you forgotten what life is all about? well im going to miss it, but i am afraid that i will not grow into a larger branch, i think athiest are fools, just like religious people, but religious people could come to the truth, while an athiest will go around in circles forever ^_^ good luck!!!

[toxedo911]

how did u gather this amount of information, please, this is amazing and insightful. and for once the bible has some deep and poetc parts i.e solomons part, very deep,

[ToddAllenGates]

> how did u gather this amount of information, please,

I read the Bible cover to cover, and typed up lots of notes! That took several months, and then it took another month or two to organize and re-organize my notes.

> this is amazing

Thanks!

[hoty1957]

"the threat of a horrible eternal afterlife? Its not God sending you to Hell...its YOU sending yourself to Hell. Your pride will be your downfall....

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 5:

> "the threat of a horrible eternal afterlife?" Its not God sending you to Hell...its YOU sending yourself to Hell. Your pride will be your downfall

Hi Hoty1957,

Nowhere in this video or any of my other videos do I say that I believe that "God sends people to hell," much less accuse, blame, or complain about such a set-up.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 5:

My focus, rather, is on the question "If a Creator of the Universe did indeed communicate with us, on what grounds can we say with confidence which religion (out of our dozens-- and arguably thousands--of options) is correct?"

And before I go any further, let me just add that if the Judeo-Christian bible is indeed THE religion inspired by our alleged Creator ...

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 5:

... then I agree with your comment, at least in the sense that if this Creator gave us directions for avoiding hell, and we fail to follow those directions, then yes, He's not sending us to hell, we're sending ourselves.

But on what grounds can we believe that the Judeo-Christian bible---or any other alleged Sacred Scripture---was uniquely inspired by a Creator whereas all the rest were just made up by people?

[ToddAllenGates]

4 of 5:

This search is complicated by the fact that most religions can use most of the following arguments that *their* religion is THE Truth:

- their life-changing spiritual experiences,

- the accounts of miracles in their Holy Book,

- their Holy Book tells them that it alone offers the path to God

- their Faith tells them so,

- the Design argument / First Cause argument prove the existence of God, therefore their religion came from God.

[ToddAllenGates]

5 of 5:

Given that all these arguments can be used by multiple religions, they point me (as a potential convert to the One Truth) in simply too many directions to be of any use.

I discuss this subject more in my video series "Using the Socratic Method with Christian Proselytizers" (particularly videos 3, 4 and 5).

[jityr2]

I used to blaspheme the holy spirit all the time. In the book of Matthew Jesus said blasphemy is unforgivable in this age and the "age to come". Does that mean it's impossible for me to make it to heaven? Pray for me on that one. Sincerely worried.

[heavennevaeh]

thanks for the reply

[The8bitMan]

where can I buy your book?

[ToddAllenGates]

> where can I buy your book?

From either my publisher's site (Booklocker . com) or Amazon or most other online bookstore.

If you want to help out the RRS (Rational Response Squad - rationalresponders . com), you can buy my book via the amazon link on the front page of the RRS site--scroll down a bit and look on the left side of the screen and you'll see a bunch of books there (The God Delusion, God is Not Great, etc.), including mine.

Thanks for asking!

- Todd

[KT45]

his book is great. I highly recommend it

[ToddAllenGates]

Thanks KT!

[templarart]

I have his book too! His myth comparisons are very well researched and invaluable in disarming an apologist!

[ToddAllenGates]

Thanks templarart!