AVRO Arrow, Canada's Quantum Leap Interceptor.

[nymuseum]

Wonder if any Soviet covert influence was involved in the Canada decision and most especially in the British aviation decisions

[rock853okg]

This aircraft was nixxed by the Diefenbaker gov't by request of the US government.

[TSR1989FF]

@rock853okg Most probably yes, although political party dogma (especially towards Defense Cuts) & poor relations between the Diefenbaker Regime & those in charge at AVRO-Canada was certainly another factor.

[TSR1989FF]

@esther19741974 "Comment Removed"

(Due to Violation of TSR Network Guidelines).

[TSR1989FF]

@esther19741974 "Comment Removed"

(Due to Violation of TSR-Network Guidelines).

[TSR1989FF]

@Nueroactive ?? You're Comment doesn't violate TSR-Network Guidelines, only if it did would it be.

[joluqa]

This aircraft was destroyed by the American policy like the TSR-2 and it was a winner.thanks for the upload ...Yours Joluqa.

[TSR1989FF]

@joluqa Very True.

It would have been a impressive sight to see this being evaluated against our EE Lightning's or the (planned) SR-177, as from what i've read on the MK-II (& planned Mk-III) Arrows' they had considerable potential.

I feel rather sorry for the Canadians, as they came up with such a capable & Beautiful Aircraft, and yet none of them (unless it's true that one was hidden away by the RCAF) were spared by Diefenbaker, while we still have two TSR-2's in restorable condition.

[JVC7400]

How were the specs compared to the F-106? the F-106 had some pretty advanced avionics including the IRST onboard, its weird how they cancelled this project though.

[TSR1989FF]

@JVC7400 I'm not sure myself, as the Delta Dart isn't an Aircraft i know that much about overall.

The MK-1 Arrow did have an early "Fly by Wire" system, which wasn't seen again until the F-16

(exept in some Bomber's like Dassault's "Mirage IV").

The full Performance & Potential of the MK-II Arrow & her (planned) MK-III Successor is still debated

(as although 1 of the MK-II Arrow's under construction was actually completed before the programme was axed the Aircraft wasn't allowed to fly).

[1z1q]

@JVC7400 I do know that the 106 was considered a worthy adversary to " top gun" navy Phantoms and early Tomcats in mock USN/USAF engagements according to Willie"irish" Driscol and Randall "duke" Cunningham..

[JVC7400]

@1z1q I had no idea it was that capable, it amazing for such an old aircraft.

[elswick1542]

The Fairey company of Swordfish fame built an aircraft in the 50,s called the Delta 2 first aircraft to exceed 1000mph in level flight,I have a book showing proposed developments one looks remarkably like this aircraft.

[TSR1989FF]

@elswick1542 Indeed they did, i beleive their were hopes of making the Fairley Delta II into a operational Interceptor at that time, but the "1957 White Paper" dashed those plans, along with many other promising projects.

Might you per chance be refering to the "AVRO 707"?

(a delta winged series of 5 prototypes built by AVRO [of Britain] at the very end of the 1940's to test the viability of the delta wing, from which the Vulcan was developed).

She's an almost 100% perfect matchup to my eye.

[elswick1542]

@TSR1989FF Book I have is called project cancelled I bought it at an air show in the early 90,s it has a fair bit on the Delta,one version is fixed nose with a RR Avon 2 Red top missiles,looks very like a Mirage but a few years earlier with a better engine,the second is a large twin engined Delta interceptor looks similar to the Arrow

I very rarely look at this book as its about the most depressing thing I posses.

[TSR1989FF]

@elswick1542 I've looked it up, is it's full title... "Project Cancelled: Disaster of Britain's Abandoned Aircraft Projects", by Derek Wood?

(it fits the Printing period & Synopsis perfectly).

I wasn't aware of a Twim Engined Delta Winged Interceptor on our side of the pond (the AVRO 707 was a single engined aircraft), i'll definitely be looking into it though .

Agreed, both the Delta II & the Arrow look very much like Dassault's Mirage III, but both preceded the latter French Fighter Plane.

[elswick1542]

@TSR1989FF Thats the one from the Miles M52 ,supersonic hunters,SARO,TSR2,AND 70,S airliners.Disaster is the right name for sure.

[TSR1989FF]

@elswick1542 Hmm, i'll be after a copy then, apart from "SARO" (which in unfermiliar to me) i've heard of all of those Aircraft.

I couldn't agree more on the books very apt Choice of Title, as the lost oppitunitys of that era (1957-1967 in perticular) can only be described as a Disaster.

[elswick1542]

@TSR1989FF Saro based on the Isle of White IIR Saunders Roe,Princess Flying boats, combined Jet rocket interceptors,1850mph ish about 1957 1/3 scale prototype flew.Luftwaffa orders 200 Gov cancelled!

Add supersonic Buccaners,super cruise Lightnings,even heavy lift helecopters.

We were the best by far!

[TSR1989FF]

@elswick1542 Ah, so SARO is the abriviation of "Saunders Roe".

Ah yes the "SR-53" & "SR-177" the 2nd of which being the final version Jet/Rocket Fighter that West-Germany would have bought (unlike it's SR-53 sibling she never flew), the Germans ultimately went (contaversially) for Lockheed's "F-104G" (the least suited of all the submissions they'd been offered ).

Indeed we were, & to a reduced extent still are (the BAE Systems "P-96" / "Replica" & other recent / current projects for example).

[TSR1989FF]

@elswick1542 The Areospace Book i can recommend the most (that i myself have to hand) is...

"British Secret Projects: Hypersonics, Ramjets & Missiles" by Chris Gibson & Tony Buttler.

It covers countless Aircraft & Projects, including BAC's "EAG.4396" Spaceplane Launcher & their cocurrent "EAG.4397" Hypersonic Airliner.

Not to mention other amazing Aircraft like the "AVRO 730" Interceptor & the "Hawker Siddeley P.1239", we Brit's certainly came up with no end of designs & prototypes ; )

[123456789r2]

you like muse don't you, how is the resoration plan going?

[2002And]

So similar to the TSR... which was based on which.. was the TSR based on the AVRO or the opposite way round?

[TSR1989FF]

@2002And Well that's the interesting side of it, dispite the similarity of their respective stories (especially their mutually contraversial cancellation) the Arrow and BAC's TSR-2 were developed and tested completely seperately of each other (with no shared data or info between them that i'm aware of).

That said, how much AVRO (short for "AV-Roe", the UK based perent company of Vulcan fame) was itself involved in / connected to the Arrow project i'm not entirely sure myself.

[2002And]

@TSR1989FF Oh, I see.. that interesting.. :) The designers of the most recent plane out of the TSR and AVRO, must have at least seen the first plane, and then the chief designer must have gone "let's do that'. Interesting about the origin of 'AVRO'.. :) I never knew that.

[TSR1989FF]

@2002And

Well the TSR-2 was the ultimate development of the "English Electric P-17" & "Vickers Type 571" designs (and is related to the "Vickers type 581"), but definitely came after the Arrow herself (which was conceived in 1953 & cancelled in late February 1959, ironically only about 5-6 weeks after the BAC TSR-2 had received the official go ahead).

While i doubt the TSR-2's design was influenced by the Arrow's, ex-AVRO-Canada Engineers did later work on BAC's side of the Concorde project.

[2002And]

@TSR1989FF Ah, I see.. why was the Arrow cancelled?

[TSR1989FF]

@2002And Hmm, an easy question to ask, but not so much to answer.

To cut a (very) long story short: like the TSR-2 the Arrow was Politically Controversial in her time, a period when the Canadian Govement (lead by "John Diefenbaker") was out to cut costs (especially in defence spending) & the Arrow (like the TSR-2 & other GB projects would be at Harold Wilson's hands in 1965) became a victim of those cutbacks, one that is still a painfull & inbittered subject for many canadians to this day.

[TSR1989FF]

@2002And One interesting co-incidence though is that the demise of both Aircraft benefited the US

(in Economic & Industrial terms)

TSR-2's axing ment they got to sell the F-111 to Australia, & almost sell it to us too in "F-111K" form (we backed out before any were delivered), & the "Anglosized" F4 Phantoms (the only Brit bit was their Engines).

The Arrow's Axing ment the US got to sell the "BOMARC" Missile (& the Nuclear Warheads for them), & the "McDonnell F-101 Voodoo" to Canada afterward.

[BasicModelling]

A great 'could have been'.. just like the TSR2.. Picked up 2 rivets from the TSR2 at the RAF Museum last Sunday.. 50p each!! :)

[TSR1989FF]

@BasicModelling Agreed, i was quite surprised by the similarity of the Arrow 's story to that of the TSR-2, even though one was a Interceptor & the other a Interdictor.

I wasn't aware they were selling those, are they from XR-219 or from the two surrviving Aircraft?

( XR-220 & XR-222 ).

[BasicModelling]

@TSR1989FF As far as I know they're only spares that would have been used, had they gone into production. There was no sign on the bucket this year, but I think it just normally states them as 'TSR2 Rivets'.. :) They have them in the Museum shop..

[TSR1989FF]

@BasicModelling ah i see.

They must have quite a surplus of them to hand to be able to sell them for 50p

(unless they're doing a bit of an Arkwright ; ).

Still, no bad thing if it improves awareness of the TSR-2.