I wouldn't know about 30th dan brits who worked decades with short-straight bladed swords with square hand guards, and now deny they ever excited. My resources are russian history books (Russia is bit closer to Japan then Britain, they even still occupy the Japanese Island of Sakhalin since WWII). and they clearly show a NINJA-KEN- SHORT,STRAIGHT BLADED SQUARE GARD SWORD, used in tactics to counter regular katana armed samurais
Wait wait wait...your idea is that they took a perfectly good weapon, chopped it up and put it together and made a mostly straight sword?!? What kind of a moron do you take japanese warriors to be do such a stupid thing?!? I'm sorry, but epic fail does not even begin to describe how stupid that theory is.
@TSOAS2008 Old weapons are still perfectly GOOD weapons. You don't chop up a perfectly fine weapons just because it's old. Broken is a whole other set of issues dealing with metallurgy as to why you don't just weld pieces of broken weapons together to make a metal stick and call it a sword. In fact the fact that you would anneal the steel in the welding process making chopping up a good sword or spear to weld into a stick doubly stupid. Making a usable sword is a complex skill.
@ColdNapalm42 So you are saying that the Japanese accademic sword collector whose book i got the info from, who is well respected in Japan is incorrect?
@TSOAS2008 Since I have no idea what he orginal said, I am saying that your interpretations of what he said are incorrect. If you are repeating everything he said verbatim and in context...then yes I would call his research into question as well. Just because he wrote a book and is well respected doesn't mean he is right. Ewart Oakeshotte is a well respected and published scholar of european swords...he was not always correct either.
@ColdNapalm42 If you say so, but they have examples, the accademic has examples, leeds armoury has them recorded and most people in the sword world know about spears that were cut down into swords. So i will leave here. I will go with the accademics in various places over your opinion. Cheers anyway.
@TSOAS2008 No, YOU say there are examples based on a small sample of anamolies. Yes spear handles were cut down to make short swords. Spear tips when the broke were reground into short swords, dagger or what have you. Broken swords were reforged into new swords. But none of what you said is a direct verbatim of what any academics in the study of swords would say. You picked and chose and your making an interpretation that is all you...not something well established.
@TSOAS2008 So don't give me that your whacky out there idea is well accepted. It's not. Your theory makes NO sense from a practical stance and completely falls apart in the physics of it. Seriously, is your theory and stance so weak that you can't even own up to them and have to fall back on my sources they I cherry picked said so? Your academic standing is very weak if your can't even own up to your own theories.
@ColdNapalm42 Listen i get you Bujinkan lot or Takamatsu people all the time. Swords from spears is a fact, the consept of a straight/almost straight sword is fine but the idea of it being connected to the ninja is not there. So far all you said is that the Royal Armouries, the Japanese and teh sword comunity is wrong - you are correct, thats it. End of convo
@TSOAS2008 Okay give me a DIRECT verbatim quote from somebody at the royal armoury who said EXACTLY what you did. There is nobody. Tell me who in good standing as a japanese sword community has said the same thing? They said that spears were turned into swords. That is not the same as chopping and welding pieces together. Your theory doesn't work. Metallurgy says so. And no I'm not bujinkan or takamatsu...but I know BS when I see it. More importantly, science says your wrong.
@TSOAS2008 You are trying to pawn off your ideas as something that actual leading academics said. That is dishonest at best. There is a big differance bettween the royal armoury is a source for my theory and they said that spears were chopped up and welded together to be straight swords. Like I said, your stance is weak. You can't even stand up for it and you have to resort to no, it's not my theory, my sources says so (despite the fact that they don't).
@ColdNapalm42 wedled together? Who said that? And i am not joking now, stop with the insults or you are banned. If you have a reason for why leeds armoury and the Japanese accademics are incorrect, please say so and do not just insult. You are getting no where but banned that way - i have reffrences, you have your own opinion, sorry if that upsets you
Still looking in the wrong place, the spear theory may be right in later times but your looking in the wrong era also, you need to look back to the 10th century when the straight bladed sword was actually being produced.
Sorry to meddle in this discussion. But can we presume that the square guard and the streight shape of the sword are much easier to attain then the round guard curved shaped katanas? So, if the bulk of a japanese army before 1590 is made by ashigaru, wouldn't they possibly be equiped with low quality mass production swords? I find it hard to believe that they would have all carried katanas, wich were probably really valuable back then. Again, sorry for interfeering, i'm only speculating here.
@dorussio no great questions, problem is many katanas were mass made and crap, also every man in the sengoku period would have a sword, just a short sword mainly, they even have a sword giving festival, in the 1590's they collected all the swords off the pesents, meaning they all had one! So it would apear swords were all over.
Oh, and something else... your reference to the "Shinobi no Mono" movie with the "straight-bladed" sword, and Hatsumi Masaaki's connection thereto... have you ever watched any of the "Shinobi no Mono" movies? If you try watching them, you'll quickly find out that the swords the shinobi use are NOT straight. They are based, seemingly, on the Togakure-ryû shinobi gatana. They are not sporting kakutsuba or straight blades.
@Jiraiyasamataaa i did say this in a vid, i said i only found a picture i think, you can not get them all to play on an english dvd player. For me the argument is over, there is evidence of straight/almost straight blades. That is enough to find a link. Its finding the link thats the issue. But hatsumi has written about a specific ninja sword. so thats also enough.
Actually, you can get the first two from China and they are region 0. You should be able to play these just fine - even if they're NTSC, as long as you have a proper TV. You should take a peek...
Furthermore, I was not disputing the historical aspect of straight swords as I have known for quite a few years about various historical matters regarding straight-bladed swords in Japan. I was merely commenting on an incorrect conclusion you presented in your video - just to help you out.
@Jiraiyasamataaa as polite as normal lenney! Ok, thank you for the help. What we need to do next is find the first conection to the ninja. it is either nawa, fujita or okuse. which one though and which one is not shinobi as a term to mean hidden.
My pleasure. (^^) Just thought I'd let you know before some of your "friends" begin slamming you for it. Remember Ant... as a researcher, it is important to check, double check and triple check your facts before presenting them as FACTS. Not doing so is a sure way to end up where one cannot touch the bottom and still keep head above water. But no offence intended - as you know. Just want to help out a fellow ninjutsu researcher - especially one this wet behind the ears! (^^) He! He!
I'm afraid I have to sign off now (another day of work tomorrow - there is no such thing as "weekends" here in Japan), but feel free to send me an email if you have more you wish to talk about regarding the sword (or anything else, for that matter). Otherwise I'll take a look here again tomorrow night after work.
It's been a while. Just wanted to give you a litttle notification regarding this video. The claim you make that Hatsumi Masaaki was the first to bring this square-tsuba sword to the "shinobi world" is incorrect. The very first book by Okuse Heishichirô (published in 1959) shows a photograph of a square-tsuba, straight/semi straight-bladed sword. I have been working on tracking the origins of this sword, but it has been unfruitful so far. Just wanted to let you know, though. (^^)
@Jiraiyasamataaa Agreed lenney, i have also found a pamphlet my Nawa (i think) to about 1956 ish. So we can get to the 50's and before Hatsumi. SO we know that the straight/semistraight sword predates hayes, what we do not know is any connection to ninja and why all of them suddenly started saying it?
Very true - hence the reason for me wanting to track down the sword in the photograph. But the current staff at the museum has no knowledge of it. I personally believe it might be in a private collection, but I'd like to ask Kawakami Jinichi if he might know anything about is, as he used to be close to Okuse Heishichirô.
Nawa Yumio also wrote some things about certain ninjutsu hidensho speaking of various shinobi no katana "characteristics", but he didn't mention which so... (>_<)
That's what I'd like to know as well. I only know that he spoke of certain hidensho speaking thereof. Various hidensho said different things... "Shôninki" speaks of the large wakizashi, others speak of daishô and then some - according to Nawa-san - speak of specifications such as sageo length, tsuba size and the like. I'm currently still searching for these in the hidensho at the Iga-ryû Ninja Hakubutsukan in Iga-Ueno. But my free time is a bit lacking now...
The thing is... in "Hisshô no Heihô - Ninjutsu no Kenkyû", Nawa-san did not speak FOR the straight-blade, square-tsuba sword. He refers to regular swords being used, or - as a minimum - swords that at least appeared to be regular swords, outwardly. So I'm not sure if Nawa-san would count as a historical researcher reference in the "pro straight-square-tsuba-sword section". The earliest I've seen so far in my own collection is Okuse-san's from 1959.
And one other thing... Okuse-san unfortunately didn't write anything specific about the sword of the shinobi. So one might conclude, that he simply saw it as either fact or not that "abnormal" that one would find such a "special" sword in ninjutsu. This makes me wonder, where he originally heard of this - if he was told, if he found it in his hidensho studies, added it to knowledge of the sword he had the photo of. I'm only guessing as I have no idea. But I'm still digging - when time allows...
@Jiraiyasamataaa ok. W know that none of them said directly that the sword was straight, not that i know of, but the illustrations in some works show almost straight swords. The point here is that in the 50/60's there is a move to a specific ninja sword, Seiko says that it is a ninja sword, but he does not say why or how he came to this.
Hmmm... the thing is just that trusting the illustrations in densho for accurate illustrations of katana (unless this is specifically what the illustrations are for) is not a good idea, in my honest opinion. Many illustrations depict straight-looking blades without this being the intention - simply due to the "artistic approach" (as you also mentioned). Photos of older blades are somewhat more trustworthy, though, but I need more info thereon to know what the deal is.
@Falcomera22,Antony is'nt saying that.Hes saying there were samurai that went to koga,iga mostly after lost battles and became ninja which makes them no longer samurai but ninja.
What about Fujita Seiko? He has a sword with a square guard in his book, and he has little to nothing to do with Hatsumi, said for that he was the only practitioner of "ninjutsu" right around the time Hatsumi was training under Takamatsu.
The 'ninja sword' as would be recognised today , is a short bladed , chokuto style blade with a square tsuba, with a ko kimassu tip. No such swords exist in Japanese history. Curved , even small is not straight. You stated a 'ninja sword' existed in history , you have not demonstrated that, but you have somewhat 'moved the goalposts' along the way
One thing I forgot, many of the straight blades you mentioned may not be around because the japanese recycled steal for their Zero fighters during WW2.
The only documents I have found of Samurai using straight blade is a man named Sasaki Kojiro and his "great drying pole" an O-tachi. the blades you have shown favour Meiji military men sabers.
Seems your info has shown the blade was not made straight, rather modified to be near-straight. I still believe the Ninjato sword, as we know it, is an inturpretation from comics. like how Shotokan gets inturpreted in Street fighter, the techniques aren't like that.
@TSOAS2008, I'm not being insulting,you'll find that the one who has been making snide comments to posters is none other than yourself. i.e. @stevegreenfield, buffoon sarutobi
1. Quote has yet to be contextualised and translated in FULL
2. Images are suspect due to being editions of a document that display at different times 'straighter' swords,it is likely an artisitic styling.
3.In museums?Which museum do we find a japanese straight sword that is pre modern,not ceremonial,linked ashigaru?
@diargo2001 translation coming, its in the royal armouors pulication, they did an article about cut down swords and spears. The man himself says they were used as re-shaped weapons. So if i am not lying or have the tranlsation wrong, how do you explain a quote and an image in the same document and with the addition of curved sword images in the SAME document?
@TSOAS2008 I don't believe anybody has disputed that the naginata naoshi existed, nor that they were cut down weapons. However they weren't straight, nor has a clear link of the Ashigaru utilising them been established. Even in the book regarding Japanese swords the quote doesn't mention 'straightening' it refers to length and curvature being affected...this doesn't mean they made a straight sword. Buffoon has made a nice vid about naginata naoshi.
@diargo2001 well i think buffons video is pro my argument. If people are worried that 3-5 mm is as issue, i am happy with that, 1600's quote saying straight swords are better, modern experxt saying they cut down spears and changed the curve (they did not add anything) and he even draws the shape. But you are correct there is no real link to ashigaru, the problem is the text also says samurai now lve straight swords so buffons video supports that fact.
@BuffonSarutobi you do not understand the argument. Your own videos support my claims. You really need to listen to what is being said. Really, go back and listen again to the main argument. Where did the iconic ninja sword come from? Stephen Hayes or Japanese popular culture? If from Popular culture can a version be found in history. No one but you said chukoto. I never ever said that. Please go back and whatch my videos. You are helping me win this.
@TSOAS2008 The iconic ninja sword was advanced and popularised by Stephen Hayes. You have not produced any actual images of Hatsumi with a ninjato. You have referenced comic book images with shuko etc which do not fully display the sword, but by making a straight line from end of tsuka to tip indicates curvature... You have pointed at the potential that 'maybe' some people have referred to certain weapons as straight but this is still contested as a possible mistranslation...
And what it does not say , which is what you say in the video 'shave off the back of the blade to make it straight ' that is not what is said at all. So do you know what period that nagamakinaoshi were made , do you have contemporary evidence to state ashigaru were using nagamakinaoshi , or is it just your theory?
No, it's shows a nagamaki being 'properly reshaped ' into a more usual sword shape. The term spear , as applied in Japanese blades is diifferent from a nagamaki both in nomenclature , construction, form and use .
@stevegreenfield TBH I think the major problem is that TSOAS2008 has a simplistic view in this area, so when it comes to the specific types of blades and weapons he blanketly refers to them as sword, spear etc. Oversimplifying to 'muscle' through a concept with a false description of said items. Either he is ignorant of the weapons or he has an agenda. I hope it is the former, as education will rectify this.
@diargo2001 thats right because every Ashigaru was highley educated in when at war people love to talk about blade type. Keeo away from insults and answer the most basic of questions. Why does it appear in history? why? in quote, in image and in museums? answer all three.
And the drawing on page 49 shows the coversion of the shobu zukuri blade shape of a naginata into a shinogi zuki shape , the more sommon blade shape for a katana. , theyare forming a kissaki and properly reshaping the naginata/nagamaki into a katana
You cannot make it more curved without removing metal from shinogi, the ha would not be reshaped unless necesary and ammount depending on hamon width, the process on page 49 illustrates the kissaki reshaping because nagaki kissaki shape differs to katana and wakazashi
On page 26 of the connoisseurs book of the japanese sword it states the following (emphasis my own) "in addition to shortening the tang ,the upper portion of the back of the blade was also removed AND THE BLADE PROPERLY RESHAPED FOR USE AS A KATANA OR WAKAZASHI" this was following an explanation of the siz e and shape of thr nagamaki.
@stevegreenfield how many times must i say this? he then shows a picture of the process on page 49. he says they change the curve, if you are not adding to a curve what are you doing?
Yes thats fine antonu, i ahve already requested a tranlsation, its not as much as a problem as you think it will be, i didnt say you were lying, i just stated you did not provide the full section of text or context.
@stevegreenfield i know, as the only issue is the word straight katana. no one can get round it, it says it, 100%. why is it such a big issue. i am an author of books, lying would not be in my best interest.
@falcomera22 that is a very difficult question, i said ninja are samurai, now it depends on teh period in question. but in teh sengoku period, there was a ifference but only a little. the point is it is not samurai ashigaru and ninja. the point is it is samurai and ashigaru some ARE ninja.
@TSOAS2008 sorry, i still don't get it sir cummins. okay, so in the sengoku period, there were SOME ninjas who were samurai and ashigaru? that sounds like there weren't many ninjas around in the sengoku period OR ninja were mostly something besides an ashigaru and samurai (mercenary?). please enlighten me, thanks.
May I suggest that you use the term "Don's/Hatsumi's facts are incorrect" instead of "he is lying". I know that there is a disagreement between you but I would hope that it becomes a professional disagreement and not personal. Well, at least one of you should be professional.
@guywicks no guy you may not sugest that. (how are you mate) i have openly said one of them is lying, so i can not retract that comment. But i agree with you. It should be professional. I will say that if anyone brings forward a 1600's quote for Togakure ninjutsu god help them if no one will beilieve a samurai on even such a simplemater as a straight sword.
I dont think there are any ninja weapons as such but a conversion like this was more useful for indoor fighting .taneamura has stated the ninjato is more of a thrusting weapon . I certainly cant practice katana in my small flat,and japanise have allways lived in small living spaces for just this reason
@BuffonSarutobi i am saying that a post sengoku period writter is saying they have straight swords. Others are saying that they did not. I am saying that Nagamakinaoshi is one example of a straight sword as teh cure is taken out. So it is a good example of where this straight sword is from. Maybe other types of spear were used in differnet period. Thank you for your comments.
@TSOAS2008 1. you produced small exerts from two quotes and not full quotes 2. Again because of the conqeuences and inferences drawn from what your saying, no a Nagamkinaoshi is not a 'straight sword' 'because the curve is taken out' . It is a curved polearm blade that has had its curve reduced because of a reshaping process for what ever reason. You seem to be suggesting from your reply to me that it was specifically a choice to make them straight for a reason rather than 'make it MORE curved'
@stevegreenfield you have the info. go read the document. if you think i am lying then fine. but you can show people that by reading teh document. its easy to get. good luck with your translation. and yes i am saying they are making it straighter, because thats what the document says. it says these straight swords are better then curved swords. its not that difficult an argument to be honest. you seem to just not wish to look at the originl quote. go translate it.
But have you found passages in historical texts saying this practise of making "do it yourself" swords existed among ashigaru? Would lend some more weight to this hypothesis.
@JustAnAdjunct .Who said that the spears they chopped up were "perfectly good", just think how many spears were either damaged or broken?, also just think how many peasents could not afford new swords? or even good secondhand ones?.
"just think how many spears were either damaged or broken?"
If the shaft is broken, it can be replaced (I would imagine it's a lot easier than chopping off metal from the blade). If the blade itself is broken, it wouldn't be much use as a sword either. Also, even if someone has a reason for converting a spear into a sword (which is kind of like converting a rifle into a pistol), why go through the trouble of removing the curve? What possible function does making it straight serve?
"peasents could not afford new swords? or even good secondhand ones?"
What's the evidence that this was a cost saving measure? Were spears dirt cheap compared to swords? Where does it say something to the effect of "soldiers would sometimes convert spears to swords, because it was cheaper than buying a new sword"? Further, if you're fighting on an open battlefield, which is what ashigaru did, why sacrifice a weapon with superb range, for one with inferior range?
P.s. the nagamaki was also not technically a spear. It was more like an big sword with a very long handle (according to wikipedia, it's considered a type of no-dachi, but the article doesn't cite any references). In any event, how a big blade with a long handle would be significantly cheaper compared to a normal sized blade with a regular sized handle is beyond me. Obviously more material is used, this increases manufacture time and complexity, which seems like it would drive up costs.
Damn youtube for the stupid 500 character restriction.
-continiue-
Even if nagamaki blades were made from lower quality steel than swords (which I doubt, but I'm sure someone is going to suggest it), why not mass produce swords made from said crappy steel instead? Why make nagamaki blades out of it, only for them to be chopped up later on by the soldiers? Was there no feedback between them and the blacksmiths at all? "Spear to sword" just raises more questions than it answers.
@JustAnAdjunct The method of manufacture for the nagamaki was quicker and simpler than for katana, the end result would also be that the steel was less refined -tho I doubt this was measurable in any practical sense.
You're claiming they didn't pay attention to quality that much? Assuming that's true, if there really was such a big demand among ashigaru for swords, why didn't anyone tell blacksmiths to produce crappy swords and not bother with polishing and such? You don't need a shiny blade on a battlefield. This whole "it's cheaper" argument presupposes that nagamaki were cheaper than all swords. Were they really? Was every sword polished to perfection and made from the finest steel?
No. I'm not claiming that they 'didnt pay attention to quality much.'
All I'm saying is that the process of making a spear or naginata type weapon was far less complex, far quicker and far less ritualized (key word) than it was for making a sword... and this is even if we FORGET polishing altogether.
Just because a polearm may have a similar FORM to a sword it does not mean it has been made with the same process.
(...continued) Also consider this, a blacksmith could make a polearm, a blacksmith could not make a sword -at least not to contemporary Japanese standards.
For whatever cultural reason the Japanese sword smiths would not generally make lesser quality swords -unlike in Europe during the same period, where you will find plenty of swords equal to the Japanese stuff, but also lesser quality swords.
Nagamaki were converted into katana, I'm not saying they weren't. I just wonder if it was done for the economical reasons Antony gave. He essentially just says "nagamaki were cheap", but doesn't explain PRECISELY WHY. poodle8noodle remarked "Nagamaki was expensive weapon" to Buffon and neither he nor anyone else challenged this statement. Wikipedia says "it required more time and materials to create a nagamaki than spears or naginata, this is why it was not as widely used".
This is exactly opposite to what Antony said. He implied this weapon was "mass produced". I think it's more likely it was a relatively expensive weapon. So the following explanation makes more sense to me:
after the Edo period started and the class system came about, carrying a polearm around to display one's samurai status would probably be kinda troublesome, so it's possible the soldiers who had purchased a nagamaki, converted them into swords (a much more compact weapon).
Pt3 It wasn't that they couldn't buy a new sword, they just didn't need to - they already had a weapon they could take to a blacksmith to reshape and for which they probably paid a lot of cash to begin with. They also likely fought with it, so simply discarding it would be kind of like abandoning a part of themselves. To me this makes more sense for how the nagamaki naoshi came about, but I can't verify that and I was hoping Antony could explain the reasons for this conversion in more detail.
@JustAnAdjunct. The way I see it is it is just a poor mans sword, the poor foot soldiers would never have been able to pay for the real thing, so what did they do, improvise.
@JustAnAdjunct no, but what does lend weight is the 1600'squote. no one seems to even talk about this. but its there in black and white. not sure why people want to ignore it? they seem to want an explaination by an ancient samurai so that in the future on youtube people will understand. history does not work like that. you have what you have, the rest is like a jigsaw.
Yeah, but it would be easier to counter detractors if you can point to someone from that time period explaining why such a practice existed. If someone states it did it's one thing and is certainly something to consider, but expanding and explaining the "why" behind the "what" is what I'm curious about. I find the possibility of such a weapon existing intriguing.
@JustAnAdjunct i know, but it does exist, its in the guys book, the one from japan, he says they cut them in this shape, they used them as swords and its published by the royal armoiries. the point is it is there. but for some reason people are getting confused between that argument and teh hatsumi one.
Antony can you clear something for me here; what is your point?
1. Square tsuba or very similarly shaped tsuba haven't been contested as existing.
2. Nagamaki Naoshi are/were abundant, however were not regarded as worthless, there are various examples of these, stored and kept, they are however curved ( a curve of 1mm is still a curve)
3. There are examples in history of straight swords i.e. Chokuto, ceremonial swords. Widely known...so whats the point of the video?
1. some people did not know, so i told them they were real but can be used any any sword.
2. i known, but in comparison to full swords are worth less. these do have a slight curve, agrred, but i do not think a 1600's samurai would argue about 1mm. they term Straight-Katana so that is the straightest katana in the world only 1mm. so 1mm to them was not a curved sword. a tachi was a curved sword. the quote is there, 100%
3. the chokuto and ken are not used in war in the senguko or edo. but we have a quote about straight swords. so the straight sword square tsuba combo existed. its a real sword. but why did it become a ninja sword? no one knows, how did it travel from a ashigarus wait to being a comic book idea? and to say that hayes did not invent it like peole are saying.
@TSOAS2008 : ) without context, without being able to view said document to check that you haven't misquoted, mistranslated, then people won't accept it... it's good old fashioned healthy scepticism...maybe because you did a study of an art as opposed to a science. Until we can go see it, It's not there in black and white, it's on a video on youtube.
at 5:00 - I want to be clear here - In the book it does NOT state that it is re-shaped into a straight sword , it shows a dotted line on a nagamaki blade to indicate a reshaping of the kissaki shape . You, therefore are inferring that this is making a straight blade, there is no evidnece presented there to state that the reshaping would be there to make a straight cutting edge or back of the blade is there? Why would you intentionaly change the shape of the curved cutting edge?
@stevegreenfield and there are many many nagamaki naoshi out there, just even something simple as a google image search reveals many examples, however none were straight, none had a reshaped kokimassu kissaki, non were mounted with a square tsuba. Or are we saying just the ones that were turned into straight blades with square tsuba were discarded?
@stevegreenfield yes there is, he draws the dotted line showing where the blade shape is cut out and you can see the curve is cut off, its plain as day and he says in the chaters about they ater the curveiture, so yes he does. and the guy at the museum backs this up and says they cut them down. The point is not make them straight but to make a sword, the issue is the end up straight. with that slight back curve. you are oplaying sementics here.
@TSOAS2008 I am not arguing that nagamaki or even longer earlier period blades were cut down , I am not arguing that the kissaki was re shaped. However , there would still be curvature , less depending on where the cut down was made. The cutting edge, which you would agree is curved , yes? would remain so.
you said 'according to this gentleman they shaved the top of the curve off to make it straight' he did not say that, you inferred that from a dashed line on the drawing. True or not?
@stevegreenfield you are not being objective about the image and the quote. reshape the sword, change its curviture. do they make it MORE curved? no, so do they make it straighter? yes. so they make a curved sword straighter and as you see by the pic it is only about 1mm. then in teh 1600's they say straight katana. only you can not see the conection. only you wsh to say it did not exist. no objective at all. last post to you sorry. just too many from you and not forward moving.
@TSOAS2008 I don't mean this offensively, but perhaps you don't actually know that much about japanese sword/nagainata structure, history from various periods and so you are giving/attempting a layman's approach. Unfortunately that doesn't help you in this topic i.e not knowing a muzori etc, It seems you are grasping at trying to come up with a plausible theory of how a straight sword with square tsuba can end up being associated with ninjutsu and then searching for history to confirm it.
@TSOAS2008 Your lack of understaing is being shown here, the straightening of the curve is a consequence of the process of shortening the blade, not the aim. The reshaping of the kissaki is not to make the blade straight. The curve is produced by the quenching process and differential hardening of the blade, you would either have to redo that to curve it more or remove steel from the shinogi which would weaken it. SO you shorten the blade and because of where the original curve is its straighter
Thanks for including the quote this time, however can you help provide the context... In other words which document? Who said it? An image of the original text would probably be best or at least someway for the public to view it?
@TSOAS2008; The quote you mention in the video above isn't mentionned in Buffoon's video. I would like to know the name, date of the document where you obtain the reference to 'if you wear such a straight sword' .
I'm glad that you have admitted that the images are taken from that source, as there are multiple editons of that book with different representations of the sword curvature, confirming it is more than likely merely an artistic impression.
@diargo2001 there are hundreds of versions in his video, the document is not authored or it has several theories, it is mid 1600's. it was reprinted many times and has many editions. are you saing i have made it up. man, its there, all the info you need. now join the talk on the quote from a REAL historical document.
@diargo2001 you just posted about the document again. why are you the only person who does not know what this document is. Buffon has about 30 versions of it in his video, he has given the kanji in his information. I can not type kanji on this computer, it is all in the first video. please keep up with teh argument. the document is a real one and buffon and dean and Japan think its real. only you seem to not understand this.
@TSOAS2008 I know exactly what the document is, I wanted you to explicitly state your source as opposed to leaving others to 'discover' the information. I agree the document is real, you failed to reference the document just showing images from various editions of said document. I wanted clarification and it has taken till now for you to actually confirm that it is indeed the document.
@diargo2001 So in future when you make these videos, please actually reference the sources of images or quotes from the published works etc. I don't aim to attribute words nor twist them (as opposed to what your PM stated) I in fact will respond to the words that you use. Thus me wanting you to publicly accept that the zohyo monogatari was your source.
@diargo2001 i will make the videos as i see fit thank you very much for your advice. You were behind the argument. It was well established where to find which book it was from. Now, do you agree or disagree that it says a straight sword? yes or no? Why is this not proof? if something says Togakure in the future, i am sure that if i ignore it i will be mobbed! Now back to the point, 1600's straight sword, one 2 quotes, 1800's document. in musems. please tell me how this is not a fact?
So, are you arguing that the 'ninjato' i.e. a chokuto blade with that tip, shorter , with that particular scabbard existed, because a chokuto is much different from an uchi gatana, is it not. There is still curve, minimal though is is and it was not 'made' straight it was a consequence of shortening. And the low quality sharpened bit of slab steel argument would not apply as they were still traditionaly made blades, although where all this scrap steel lying around was who knows
@stevegreenfield that has never been my argument ever. i never said anything about that, that info comes from modern ideas. i was looking for a straight sword, i found it. it was hacked up from a spear. there are images of straight blades with square tsubas. no problems.
@stevegreenfield I'm really thinking it was a 'Strawman', because I've 'found straight swords in japanese history' would have been met with a shrug and meh... I find his obsession with Don Roley a little worrying, and after reading Don's blog he clearly states a straight sword, square tsuba in relation to ninja/ninjutsu anyway.
10:33 the blade has a square tsuba yes , but if you apply a straight line , as you do in other drawings to prove straight or curved, throught the centre of the Tsuka or for that matter its edges then in fact the endof the saya is out side this and would seem to suggest curved.
@diargo2001 can not find your post, so flippin many. its worded like that because in the west this is a ninja sword now i am telling people it is real but NOT a ninja sword
@TSOAS2008 So there is no ninja sword... but in the past there were some square tsuba used on swords, some swords may have appeared to be straighter then others, Ashigaru sometimes had nagamaki naoshi, Ashigaru were generally lower class, Bansenshukai says that lower class are better at I nin ....We can agree : )
However... Some Greeks are logicians and some logicians are tiresome; therefore, some Greeks are tiresome...is an invalid logic argument...
@diargo2001 no thats not what i am saying in full. Yes some where considered straight by the 1600's people (FACT), yes they are not ninja swords. But they became known or conected to teh ninja sword. I even say in teh video i will now give an idea. in-nin by asjigaru. i said it is not a ninja sword but here is some information. i never said this was a theory i am putting forward. i do NOT think its a ninja sword. at all. what is your contribution? I am giving info and telling people things.
@TSOAS2008 my contribution is sifting through the surrounding guff. From two vids, all you have, is essentially a quote from a document that is yet to be named, validated, crosschecked or referenced without the context that the quote is made, whether it is the full quote to allow closer inspection. If it checks out when this info is provided then it would provide/contribute validation.
@stevegreenfield what? no it does not. the curve is seen, you are simply trying to find a negative. look at the text, straight Katana. its there. 100% its real in a document in the 1600's. I hope you do not mind this type of question if you ever find Togakure proff. LOL
@TSOAS2008 No it does , I have checked , it indicates a curved in the same way you applied to your initial evidence to prove a curve, try . I am not the one presenting evidence , and yes If i presented evidence i would want and expect healthy sceptitsism , i would also expect people to request sources and provenance. so should you.
8:08 - My improession , although i need to back this up with a quote is that although the 'Taijutsu' and weapons pictures were taken from Togakure ryu and its practitioners, the clibing etc wasnt. And what the picture shows is a square tsuba , the blade is not visible
8.50 I think it has been stated before that a lot of what was in Mr Hayes books departed from mainline teaching , so it does not follow that this is 'from hatsumi', an example would be translation of koku in history and traditions
@stevegreenfield there is no way to answer this without sounding negative, but are you serious? its there plain as day in the museum, its on the picture. you are not very objective are you?
@stevegreenfield again can not find your post and i will say it AGAIN and this is the last time so please listen. He says they change the curviture, ok, we have that. then he shows a drawing of them CUTTING it OFF. Change the curiture, cut it off, make it more straight, i explain all thsi in the video, again i have explained it here. they chopp of the curved end, making it more straight. only you do not seem to understand this?
at 1:06 - you state 'there are lots of straight swords in this period' - what is is your evidence for this extrapolation, and if there were lots ,including - samura as the quote state - where are they
1.17 SO the quote, is that taken from the same document as the pictures are from, is that the original japanese as written in the document, if so when was it written i.e. which edition and is that a modern transkation of the old japanese or the original japanese
@stevegreenfield also the quote , is incomplete and without the context - can you provide the text prior to 'therefore'
yes we know uchigatana existed, and many many many cut down blades exist and are not thrown away - i have owned a couple
the quote you post is ' nagamki are reshaped into katana or wakazashi thus altering their length and curve' - does it state they were reshaped into straight blades in the smae book - do not have my copy with me as in work
@diargo2001 So on that point antony is it you or the author of that sword text that is saying it was re shaped into a straight blade, as from the ones I have seen , interms of reshaped swords , the tip etc would be preserved and the nakago would be reshapen, in fact i owned an interesting exam with half the mei missing and two distinc patina with a division signifying the reshaping point.
@stevegreenfield i answer this, they are thrown away at the end of the edo period, just like knives and some end up in a museum. sorry same answer. its there in hiustory, on paper, in image and in teh museum. you just have to get used to the isea, that Hatsumi brought that thing to the public. sorry.
@TSOAS2008 Why are they thrown away at the end of the edo period - what is your evidence to back that statement up. Other low quality , non signed swords from earlier periods exist do they not?
@BuffonSarutobi i do not know what that is, but yes, any blade that was cut down and as a result was straighter, as said in the text. but i do not know where hatsumi got it from
@BuffonSarutobi I am not sure, I think we all know an uchi gatana existed , which because of the reshaping at the nakago end would appear straighter , but still has some curve. They were not made straight with a kokimassu type kissaki in chokuto form. There seems to be an try to link these type of of swords to justify the existance of the 'ninjato form' but even if you have a muzori blade with moko or square tsuba , it is still not a chokuto ninjatou
@BuffonSarutobi nope, but i will explain to you that in the west everyone thinks its a ninja sword, and i will explain to you antony is the first on this site to put it all together and antony thinks he found a fefferance to a stright sword in the 1600.s thats what antony thinks :)
@TSOAS2008 Nope, a ninjato is a very specific bit of kit, simply comparing it to a straight sword is actually incorrect. Thus the unjustified assertion that 'in the west everyone thinks its a ninja sword' is a falsehood. Antony why stick to the 1600s? straight swords existed in japan further back during the kofun period.
Ok so as far as Stephen Hayes and Hatsumi quotes on ninjato go, read this: stephenkhayes(dot)com/2010/10/31/ninja-sword-non-controversy/
Also I think hacking away with a straight blade would require less skill than a curved sword would and the straight tip on the ninjato is intended to pierce armor.
I wouldn't know about 30th dan brits who worked decades with short-straight bladed swords with square hand guards, and now deny they ever excited. My resources are russian history books (Russia is bit closer to Japan then Britain, they even still occupy the Japanese Island of Sakhalin since WWII). and they clearly show a NINJA-KEN- SHORT,STRAIGHT BLADED SQUARE GARD SWORD, used in tactics to counter regular katana armed samurais
MaximKozin 1 month ago
@MaximKozin could you please show the book and the date and the conection to ninja please. Sounds interesting.
TSOAS2008 1 month ago 2
Wait wait wait...your idea is that they took a perfectly good weapon, chopped it up and put it together and made a mostly straight sword?!? What kind of a moron do you take japanese warriors to be do such a stupid thing?!? I'm sorry, but epic fail does not even begin to describe how stupid that theory is.
ColdNapalm42 1 month ago
@ColdNapalm42 "Broken weapons" "old unused" that type of thing.
TSOAS2008 1 month ago
@TSOAS2008 Old weapons are still perfectly GOOD weapons. You don't chop up a perfectly fine weapons just because it's old. Broken is a whole other set of issues dealing with metallurgy as to why you don't just weld pieces of broken weapons together to make a metal stick and call it a sword. In fact the fact that you would anneal the steel in the welding process making chopping up a good sword or spear to weld into a stick doubly stupid. Making a usable sword is a complex skill.
ColdNapalm42 1 month ago
@ColdNapalm42 So you are saying that the Japanese accademic sword collector whose book i got the info from, who is well respected in Japan is incorrect?
TSOAS2008 1 month ago
@TSOAS2008 Since I have no idea what he orginal said, I am saying that your interpretations of what he said are incorrect. If you are repeating everything he said verbatim and in context...then yes I would call his research into question as well. Just because he wrote a book and is well respected doesn't mean he is right. Ewart Oakeshotte is a well respected and published scholar of european swords...he was not always correct either.
ColdNapalm42 1 month ago
@ColdNapalm42 If you say so, but they have examples, the accademic has examples, leeds armoury has them recorded and most people in the sword world know about spears that were cut down into swords. So i will leave here. I will go with the accademics in various places over your opinion. Cheers anyway.
TSOAS2008 1 month ago
@TSOAS2008 No, YOU say there are examples based on a small sample of anamolies. Yes spear handles were cut down to make short swords. Spear tips when the broke were reground into short swords, dagger or what have you. Broken swords were reforged into new swords. But none of what you said is a direct verbatim of what any academics in the study of swords would say. You picked and chose and your making an interpretation that is all you...not something well established.
ColdNapalm42 1 month ago
@TSOAS2008 So don't give me that your whacky out there idea is well accepted. It's not. Your theory makes NO sense from a practical stance and completely falls apart in the physics of it. Seriously, is your theory and stance so weak that you can't even own up to them and have to fall back on my sources they I cherry picked said so? Your academic standing is very weak if your can't even own up to your own theories.
ColdNapalm42 1 month ago
@ColdNapalm42 Listen i get you Bujinkan lot or Takamatsu people all the time. Swords from spears is a fact, the consept of a straight/almost straight sword is fine but the idea of it being connected to the ninja is not there. So far all you said is that the Royal Armouries, the Japanese and teh sword comunity is wrong - you are correct, thats it. End of convo
TSOAS2008 1 month ago
@TSOAS2008 Okay give me a DIRECT verbatim quote from somebody at the royal armoury who said EXACTLY what you did. There is nobody. Tell me who in good standing as a japanese sword community has said the same thing? They said that spears were turned into swords. That is not the same as chopping and welding pieces together. Your theory doesn't work. Metallurgy says so. And no I'm not bujinkan or takamatsu...but I know BS when I see it. More importantly, science says your wrong.
ColdNapalm42 1 month ago
@TSOAS2008 You are trying to pawn off your ideas as something that actual leading academics said. That is dishonest at best. There is a big differance bettween the royal armoury is a source for my theory and they said that spears were chopped up and welded together to be straight swords. Like I said, your stance is weak. You can't even stand up for it and you have to resort to no, it's not my theory, my sources says so (despite the fact that they don't).
ColdNapalm42 1 month ago
@ColdNapalm42 wedled together? Who said that? And i am not joking now, stop with the insults or you are banned. If you have a reason for why leeds armoury and the Japanese accademics are incorrect, please say so and do not just insult. You are getting no where but banned that way - i have reffrences, you have your own opinion, sorry if that upsets you
TSOAS2008 1 month ago
Still looking in the wrong place, the spear theory may be right in later times but your looking in the wrong era also, you need to look back to the 10th century when the straight bladed sword was actually being produced.
TheSamurai0770 2 months ago
Sorry to meddle in this discussion. But can we presume that the square guard and the streight shape of the sword are much easier to attain then the round guard curved shaped katanas? So, if the bulk of a japanese army before 1590 is made by ashigaru, wouldn't they possibly be equiped with low quality mass production swords? I find it hard to believe that they would have all carried katanas, wich were probably really valuable back then. Again, sorry for interfeering, i'm only speculating here.
dorussio 1 year ago
@dorussio no great questions, problem is many katanas were mass made and crap, also every man in the sengoku period would have a sword, just a short sword mainly, they even have a sword giving festival, in the 1590's they collected all the swords off the pesents, meaning they all had one! So it would apear swords were all over.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Oh, and something else... your reference to the "Shinobi no Mono" movie with the "straight-bladed" sword, and Hatsumi Masaaki's connection thereto... have you ever watched any of the "Shinobi no Mono" movies? If you try watching them, you'll quickly find out that the swords the shinobi use are NOT straight. They are based, seemingly, on the Togakure-ryû shinobi gatana. They are not sporting kakutsuba or straight blades.
Hope this was somewhat informative.
Best regards,
Lenny.
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
@Jiraiyasamataaa i did say this in a vid, i said i only found a picture i think, you can not get them all to play on an english dvd player. For me the argument is over, there is evidence of straight/almost straight blades. That is enough to find a link. Its finding the link thats the issue. But hatsumi has written about a specific ninja sword. so thats also enough.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Actually, you can get the first two from China and they are region 0. You should be able to play these just fine - even if they're NTSC, as long as you have a proper TV. You should take a peek...
Furthermore, I was not disputing the historical aspect of straight swords as I have known for quite a few years about various historical matters regarding straight-bladed swords in Japan. I was merely commenting on an incorrect conclusion you presented in your video - just to help you out.
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
@Jiraiyasamataaa as polite as normal lenney! Ok, thank you for the help. What we need to do next is find the first conection to the ninja. it is either nawa, fujita or okuse. which one though and which one is not shinobi as a term to mean hidden.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
My pleasure. (^^) Just thought I'd let you know before some of your "friends" begin slamming you for it. Remember Ant... as a researcher, it is important to check, double check and triple check your facts before presenting them as FACTS. Not doing so is a sure way to end up where one cannot touch the bottom and still keep head above water. But no offence intended - as you know. Just want to help out a fellow ninjutsu researcher - especially one this wet behind the ears! (^^) He! He!
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
I'm afraid I have to sign off now (another day of work tomorrow - there is no such thing as "weekends" here in Japan), but feel free to send me an email if you have more you wish to talk about regarding the sword (or anything else, for that matter). Otherwise I'll take a look here again tomorrow night after work.
研究を頑張ってな！
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
Hi, Ant!
It's been a while. Just wanted to give you a litttle notification regarding this video. The claim you make that Hatsumi Masaaki was the first to bring this square-tsuba sword to the "shinobi world" is incorrect. The very first book by Okuse Heishichirô (published in 1959) shows a photograph of a square-tsuba, straight/semi straight-bladed sword. I have been working on tracking the origins of this sword, but it has been unfruitful so far. Just wanted to let you know, though. (^^)
Lenny
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
@Jiraiyasamataaa Agreed lenney, i have also found a pamphlet my Nawa (i think) to about 1956 ish. So we can get to the 50's and before Hatsumi. SO we know that the straight/semistraight sword predates hayes, what we do not know is any connection to ninja and why all of them suddenly started saying it?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Very true - hence the reason for me wanting to track down the sword in the photograph. But the current staff at the museum has no knowledge of it. I personally believe it might be in a private collection, but I'd like to ask Kawakami Jinichi if he might know anything about is, as he used to be close to Okuse Heishichirô.
Nawa Yumio also wrote some things about certain ninjutsu hidensho speaking of various shinobi no katana "characteristics", but he didn't mention which so... (>_<)
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
@Jiraiyasamataaa i want to know which scroll it is!
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
That's what I'd like to know as well. I only know that he spoke of certain hidensho speaking thereof. Various hidensho said different things... "Shôninki" speaks of the large wakizashi, others speak of daishô and then some - according to Nawa-san - speak of specifications such as sageo length, tsuba size and the like. I'm currently still searching for these in the hidensho at the Iga-ryû Ninja Hakubutsukan in Iga-Ueno. But my free time is a bit lacking now...
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
The thing is... in "Hisshô no Heihô - Ninjutsu no Kenkyû", Nawa-san did not speak FOR the straight-blade, square-tsuba sword. He refers to regular swords being used, or - as a minimum - swords that at least appeared to be regular swords, outwardly. So I'm not sure if Nawa-san would count as a historical researcher reference in the "pro straight-square-tsuba-sword section". The earliest I've seen so far in my own collection is Okuse-san's from 1959.
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
And one other thing... Okuse-san unfortunately didn't write anything specific about the sword of the shinobi. So one might conclude, that he simply saw it as either fact or not that "abnormal" that one would find such a "special" sword in ninjutsu. This makes me wonder, where he originally heard of this - if he was told, if he found it in his hidensho studies, added it to knowledge of the sword he had the photo of. I'm only guessing as I have no idea. But I'm still digging - when time allows...
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago
@Jiraiyasamataaa ok. W know that none of them said directly that the sword was straight, not that i know of, but the illustrations in some works show almost straight swords. The point here is that in the 50/60's there is a move to a specific ninja sword, Seiko says that it is a ninja sword, but he does not say why or how he came to this.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Hmmm... the thing is just that trusting the illustrations in densho for accurate illustrations of katana (unless this is specifically what the illustrations are for) is not a good idea, in my honest opinion. Many illustrations depict straight-looking blades without this being the intention - simply due to the "artistic approach" (as you also mentioned). Photos of older blades are somewhat more trustworthy, though, but I need more info thereon to know what the deal is.
Jiraiyasamataaa 1 year ago 2
@Falcomera22,Antony is'nt saying that.Hes saying there were samurai that went to koga,iga mostly after lost battles and became ninja which makes them no longer samurai but ninja.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
great facts brother.hopefully this gap will get filled and we can all rest.in this case any way lol ;D
leogets2006 1 year ago
What about Fujita Seiko? He has a sword with a square guard in his book, and he has little to nothing to do with Hatsumi, said for that he was the only practitioner of "ninjutsu" right around the time Hatsumi was training under Takamatsu.
OkamiNinja7 1 year ago
That's possible but I figured you guys are picking antony's wording apart so I would do the same to you
sonicredcr 1 year ago 6
@sonicredcr That's the whole point of a debate
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
@ninjaplease10 no, the whole debate is to find where the ninja sword came from.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago 2
Well dude the 1960s is Japanese historyand they existed then, didn't they?
sonicredcr 1 year ago 3
@sonicredcr Only as a novelty for pretend ninja
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
@ninjaplease10 same thing, they still predate hayes.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago 2
The 'ninja sword' as would be recognised today , is a short bladed , chokuto style blade with a square tsuba, with a ko kimassu tip. No such swords exist in Japanese history. Curved , even small is not straight. You stated a 'ninja sword' existed in history , you have not demonstrated that, but you have somewhat 'moved the goalposts' along the way
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield ninja sword is in "" thats the point, it is not a ninja sword. you will see the new vid. i have made it easier for people.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
One thing I forgot, many of the straight blades you mentioned may not be around because the japanese recycled steal for their Zero fighters during WW2.
SatoRindou 1 year ago
The only documents I have found of Samurai using straight blade is a man named Sasaki Kojiro and his "great drying pole" an O-tachi. the blades you have shown favour Meiji military men sabers.
Seems your info has shown the blade was not made straight, rather modified to be near-straight. I still believe the Ninjato sword, as we know it, is an inturpretation from comics. like how Shotokan gets inturpreted in Street fighter, the techniques aren't like that.
SatoRindou 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008, I'm not being insulting,you'll find that the one who has been making snide comments to posters is none other than yourself. i.e. @stevegreenfield, buffoon sarutobi
1. Quote has yet to be contextualised and translated in FULL
2. Images are suspect due to being editions of a document that display at different times 'straighter' swords,it is likely an artisitic styling.
3.In museums?Which museum do we find a japanese straight sword that is pre modern,not ceremonial,linked ashigaru?
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 translation coming, its in the royal armouors pulication, they did an article about cut down swords and spears. The man himself says they were used as re-shaped weapons. So if i am not lying or have the tranlsation wrong, how do you explain a quote and an image in the same document and with the addition of curved sword images in the SAME document?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 I don't believe anybody has disputed that the naginata naoshi existed, nor that they were cut down weapons. However they weren't straight, nor has a clear link of the Ashigaru utilising them been established. Even in the book regarding Japanese swords the quote doesn't mention 'straightening' it refers to length and curvature being affected...this doesn't mean they made a straight sword. Buffoon has made a nice vid about naginata naoshi.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 well i think buffons video is pro my argument. If people are worried that 3-5 mm is as issue, i am happy with that, 1600's quote saying straight swords are better, modern experxt saying they cut down spears and changed the curve (they did not add anything) and he even draws the shape. But you are correct there is no real link to ashigaru, the problem is the text also says samurai now lve straight swords so buffons video supports that fact.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
>1600's quote saying straight swords are better,
The quote you re saying is a part of zohyo monogatari right?
The ashiagru said "Don't put such an straight sword""samurai these days don't like curved one because it hits ancle"
If you or yoshie ask authorities they would say the straight sword meant kanbunshinto寛文新刀, it's muzori not chokuto(straight).
That is why you guys keep avoiding academic people right?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi you do not understand the argument. Your own videos support my claims. You really need to listen to what is being said. Really, go back and listen again to the main argument. Where did the iconic ninja sword come from? Stephen Hayes or Japanese popular culture? If from Popular culture can a version be found in history. No one but you said chukoto. I never ever said that. Please go back and whatch my videos. You are helping me win this.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Muzori isn't straight.
That's the solid fact.
Your personal grudge against Bujinkan is not my issue.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 The iconic ninja sword was advanced and popularised by Stephen Hayes. You have not produced any actual images of Hatsumi with a ninjato. You have referenced comic book images with shuko etc which do not fully display the sword, but by making a straight line from end of tsuka to tip indicates curvature... You have pointed at the potential that 'maybe' some people have referred to certain weapons as straight but this is still contested as a possible mistranslation...
diargo2001 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 3-5 mm is a issue to a craftsman and the difference can easily be noticed as not being straight
Even a difference of 0.5 mm is a curve
Looking at it at in a more epic scale the diameter of the earth's surface curves at approximately 8 inches per mile.But it isn't straight haha
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
And what it does not say , which is what you say in the video 'shave off the back of the blade to make it straight ' that is not what is said at all. So do you know what period that nagamakinaoshi were made , do you have contemporary evidence to state ashigaru were using nagamakinaoshi , or is it just your theory?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
No, it's shows a nagamaki being 'properly reshaped ' into a more usual sword shape. The term spear , as applied in Japanese blades is diifferent from a nagamaki both in nomenclature , construction, form and use .
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield TBH I think the major problem is that TSOAS2008 has a simplistic view in this area, so when it comes to the specific types of blades and weapons he blanketly refers to them as sword, spear etc. Oversimplifying to 'muscle' through a concept with a false description of said items. Either he is ignorant of the weapons or he has an agenda. I hope it is the former, as education will rectify this.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 thats right because every Ashigaru was highley educated in when at war people love to talk about blade type. Keeo away from insults and answer the most basic of questions. Why does it appear in history? why? in quote, in image and in museums? answer all three.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
well done. I'm very impressed with your work. good form
bizitch71717 1 year ago
And the drawing on page 49 shows the coversion of the shobu zukuri blade shape of a naginata into a shinogi zuki shape , the more sommon blade shape for a katana. , theyare forming a kissaki and properly reshaping the naginata/nagamaki into a katana
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield the drawing clearly shows them turning a spear into a sword. simple. spear - cut - sword finish. do you disagree?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
You cannot make it more curved without removing metal from shinogi, the ha would not be reshaped unless necesary and ammount depending on hamon width, the process on page 49 illustrates the kissaki reshaping because nagaki kissaki shape differs to katana and wakazashi
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
On page 26 of the connoisseurs book of the japanese sword it states the following (emphasis my own) "in addition to shortening the tang ,the upper portion of the back of the blade was also removed AND THE BLADE PROPERLY RESHAPED FOR USE AS A KATANA OR WAKAZASHI" this was following an explanation of the siz e and shape of thr nagamaki.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield how many times must i say this? he then shows a picture of the process on page 49. he says they change the curve, if you are not adding to a curve what are you doing?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Yes thats fine antonu, i ahve already requested a tranlsation, its not as much as a problem as you think it will be, i didnt say you were lying, i just stated you did not provide the full section of text or context.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield i know, as the only issue is the word straight katana. no one can get round it, it says it, 100%. why is it such a big issue. i am an author of books, lying would not be in my best interest.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
well said Antony! I have started the translations btw.
*bow*
angela
tayounorise 1 year ago
excuse me if i'm wrong but didn't you say the ninja were mostly samurai instead of ashigaru? or is that the same?
falcomera22 1 year ago
@falcomera22 that is a very difficult question, i said ninja are samurai, now it depends on teh period in question. but in teh sengoku period, there was a ifference but only a little. the point is it is not samurai ashigaru and ninja. the point is it is samurai and ashigaru some ARE ninja.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 sorry, i still don't get it sir cummins. okay, so in the sengoku period, there were SOME ninjas who were samurai and ashigaru? that sounds like there weren't many ninjas around in the sengoku period OR ninja were mostly something besides an ashigaru and samurai (mercenary?). please enlighten me, thanks.
falcomera22 1 year ago
Ant.
May I suggest that you use the term "Don's/Hatsumi's facts are incorrect" instead of "he is lying". I know that there is a disagreement between you but I would hope that it becomes a professional disagreement and not personal. Well, at least one of you should be professional.
Guy
guywicks 1 year ago
@guywicks no guy you may not sugest that. (how are you mate) i have openly said one of them is lying, so i can not retract that comment. But i agree with you. It should be professional. I will say that if anyone brings forward a 1600's quote for Togakure ninjutsu god help them if no one will beilieve a samurai on even such a simplemater as a straight sword.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
I dont think there are any ninja weapons as such but a conversion like this was more useful for indoor fighting .taneamura has stated the ninjato is more of a thrusting weapon . I certainly cant practice katana in my small flat,and japanise have allways lived in small living spaces for just this reason
MultiJimbo1970 1 year ago
This is amazing exciting (*___*@
*bow*
angela
tayounorise 1 year ago
Are you saying ashigaru in sengoku period used nagamakinaoshi?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi i am saying that a post sengoku period writter is saying they have straight swords. Others are saying that they did not. I am saying that Nagamakinaoshi is one example of a straight sword as teh cure is taken out. So it is a good example of where this straight sword is from. Maybe other types of spear were used in differnet period. Thank you for your comments.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
So you now agree that the ashigaru pictures on zohyomonogatari represented sengoku period, not 1800s.
And some of them had nagamakinaoshi.
Is that correct?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BuffonSarutobi
Strange, you ignore this comment......
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 1. you produced small exerts from two quotes and not full quotes 2. Again because of the conqeuences and inferences drawn from what your saying, no a Nagamkinaoshi is not a 'straight sword' 'because the curve is taken out' . It is a curved polearm blade that has had its curve reduced because of a reshaping process for what ever reason. You seem to be suggesting from your reply to me that it was specifically a choice to make them straight for a reason rather than 'make it MORE curved'
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@stevegreenfield you have the info. go read the document. if you think i am lying then fine. but you can show people that by reading teh document. its easy to get. good luck with your translation. and yes i am saying they are making it straighter, because thats what the document says. it says these straight swords are better then curved swords. its not that difficult an argument to be honest. you seem to just not wish to look at the originl quote. go translate it.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi yes send me a PM but please send me a straight version. do not just find curved versions.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
自称歴史家なら自分でやろうぜそのくらいｗ
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
Why chop up a spear to make a sword? I'm having trouble grasping the logic behind this.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct its cheap
TSOAS2008 1 year ago 2
@TSOAS2008
Can't really argue with economics I guess :)
But have you found passages in historical texts saying this practise of making "do it yourself" swords existed among ashigaru? Would lend some more weight to this hypothesis.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct
Ok, I worded that poorly. I meant passages that explain the reason that a soldier would chop up a perfectly good spear.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct
Do you want see pictures of Nagamakinaoshi?
I'll PM you.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BuffonSarutobi
"Do you want see pictures of Nagamakinaoshi?
I'll PM you."
Sure, if it's not too much trouble.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct
"a soldier would chop up a perfectly good spear."
I think everyone wonder about it too.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi
Nagamaki was expensive weapon.
poodle8noodle 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct .Who said that the spears they chopped up were "perfectly good", just think how many spears were either damaged or broken?, also just think how many peasents could not afford new swords? or even good secondhand ones?.
j2091957 1 year ago
@j2091957
"just think how many spears were either damaged or broken?"
If the shaft is broken, it can be replaced (I would imagine it's a lot easier than chopping off metal from the blade). If the blade itself is broken, it wouldn't be much use as a sword either. Also, even if someone has a reason for converting a spear into a sword (which is kind of like converting a rifle into a pistol), why go through the trouble of removing the curve? What possible function does making it straight serve?
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@j2091957
"peasents could not afford new swords? or even good secondhand ones?"
What's the evidence that this was a cost saving measure? Were spears dirt cheap compared to swords? Where does it say something to the effect of "soldiers would sometimes convert spears to swords, because it was cheaper than buying a new sword"? Further, if you're fighting on an open battlefield, which is what ashigaru did, why sacrifice a weapon with superb range, for one with inferior range?
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
P.s. the nagamaki was also not technically a spear. It was more like an big sword with a very long handle (according to wikipedia, it's considered a type of no-dachi, but the article doesn't cite any references). In any event, how a big blade with a long handle would be significantly cheaper compared to a normal sized blade with a regular sized handle is beyond me. Obviously more material is used, this increases manufacture time and complexity, which seems like it would drive up costs.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
Damn youtube for the stupid 500 character restriction.
-continiue-
Even if nagamaki blades were made from lower quality steel than swords (which I doubt, but I'm sure someone is going to suggest it), why not mass produce swords made from said crappy steel instead? Why make nagamaki blades out of it, only for them to be chopped up later on by the soldiers? Was there no feedback between them and the blacksmiths at all? "Spear to sword" just raises more questions than it answers.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct The method of manufacture for the nagamaki was quicker and simpler than for katana, the end result would also be that the steel was less refined -tho I doubt this was measurable in any practical sense.
The polishing was also FAR less involved.
xXxCatsnakexXx 1 year ago
@xXxCatsnakexXx
You're claiming they didn't pay attention to quality that much? Assuming that's true, if there really was such a big demand among ashigaru for swords, why didn't anyone tell blacksmiths to produce crappy swords and not bother with polishing and such? You don't need a shiny blade on a battlefield. This whole "it's cheaper" argument presupposes that nagamaki were cheaper than all swords. Were they really? Was every sword polished to perfection and made from the finest steel?
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct
No. I'm not claiming that they 'didnt pay attention to quality much.'
All I'm saying is that the process of making a spear or naginata type weapon was far less complex, far quicker and far less ritualized (key word) than it was for making a sword... and this is even if we FORGET polishing altogether.
Just because a polearm may have a similar FORM to a sword it does not mean it has been made with the same process.
xXxCatsnakexXx 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct
(...continued) Also consider this, a blacksmith could make a polearm, a blacksmith could not make a sword -at least not to contemporary Japanese standards.
For whatever cultural reason the Japanese sword smiths would not generally make lesser quality swords -unlike in Europe during the same period, where you will find plenty of swords equal to the Japanese stuff, but also lesser quality swords.
xXxCatsnakexXx 1 year ago
@xXxCatsnakexXx
Pt1
Nagamaki were converted into katana, I'm not saying they weren't. I just wonder if it was done for the economical reasons Antony gave. He essentially just says "nagamaki were cheap", but doesn't explain PRECISELY WHY. poodle8noodle remarked "Nagamaki was expensive weapon" to Buffon and neither he nor anyone else challenged this statement. Wikipedia says "it required more time and materials to create a nagamaki than spears or naginata, this is why it was not as widely used".
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
Pt2
This is exactly opposite to what Antony said. He implied this weapon was "mass produced". I think it's more likely it was a relatively expensive weapon. So the following explanation makes more sense to me:
after the Edo period started and the class system came about, carrying a polearm around to display one's samurai status would probably be kinda troublesome, so it's possible the soldiers who had purchased a nagamaki, converted them into swords (a much more compact weapon).
cont...
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
Pt3 It wasn't that they couldn't buy a new sword, they just didn't need to - they already had a weapon they could take to a blacksmith to reshape and for which they probably paid a lot of cash to begin with. They also likely fought with it, so simply discarding it would be kind of like abandoning a part of themselves. To me this makes more sense for how the nagamaki naoshi came about, but I can't verify that and I was hoping Antony could explain the reasons for this conversion in more detail.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct Well, I certainly think your idea in Pt3 is VERY interesting -and certainly worthy of further consideration...
xXxCatsnakexXx 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct. The way I see it is it is just a poor mans sword, the poor foot soldiers would never have been able to pay for the real thing, so what did they do, improvise.
j2091957 1 year ago
@j2091957
And I'm wondering if this kind of "improvisation" really makes sense from a cost standpoint. Perhaps Antony's team could delve more into this.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct no, but what does lend weight is the 1600'squote. no one seems to even talk about this. but its there in black and white. not sure why people want to ignore it? they seem to want an explaination by an ancient samurai so that in the future on youtube people will understand. history does not work like that. you have what you have, the rest is like a jigsaw.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Yeah, but it would be easier to counter detractors if you can point to someone from that time period explaining why such a practice existed. If someone states it did it's one thing and is certainly something to consider, but expanding and explaining the "why" behind the "what" is what I'm curious about. I find the possibility of such a weapon existing intriguing.
JustAnAdjunct 1 year ago
@JustAnAdjunct i know, but it does exist, its in the guys book, the one from japan, he says they cut them in this shape, they used them as swords and its published by the royal armoiries. the point is it is there. but for some reason people are getting confused between that argument and teh hatsumi one.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Antony can you clear something for me here; what is your point?
1. Square tsuba or very similarly shaped tsuba haven't been contested as existing.
2. Nagamaki Naoshi are/were abundant, however were not regarded as worthless, there are various examples of these, stored and kept, they are however curved ( a curve of 1mm is still a curve)
3. There are examples in history of straight swords i.e. Chokuto, ceremonial swords. Widely known...so whats the point of the video?
diargo2001 1 year ago
1. some people did not know, so i told them they were real but can be used any any sword.
2. i known, but in comparison to full swords are worth less. these do have a slight curve, agrred, but i do not think a 1600's samurai would argue about 1mm. they term Straight-Katana so that is the straightest katana in the world only 1mm. so 1mm to them was not a curved sword. a tachi was a curved sword. the quote is there, 100%
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
cont
3. the chokuto and ken are not used in war in the senguko or edo. but we have a quote about straight swords. so the straight sword square tsuba combo existed. its a real sword. but why did it become a ninja sword? no one knows, how did it travel from a ashigarus wait to being a comic book idea? and to say that hayes did not invent it like peole are saying.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
why are many people ignoring the quotes? its there in blackand white.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 : ) without context, without being able to view said document to check that you haven't misquoted, mistranslated, then people won't accept it... it's good old fashioned healthy scepticism...maybe because you did a study of an art as opposed to a science. Until we can go see it, It's not there in black and white, it's on a video on youtube.
diargo2001 1 year ago
at 5:00 - I want to be clear here - In the book it does NOT state that it is re-shaped into a straight sword , it shows a dotted line on a nagamaki blade to indicate a reshaping of the kissaki shape . You, therefore are inferring that this is making a straight blade, there is no evidnece presented there to state that the reshaping would be there to make a straight cutting edge or back of the blade is there? Why would you intentionaly change the shape of the curved cutting edge?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@stevegreenfield and there are many many nagamaki naoshi out there, just even something simple as a google image search reveals many examples, however none were straight, none had a reshaped kokimassu kissaki, non were mounted with a square tsuba. Or are we saying just the ones that were turned into straight blades with square tsuba were discarded?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield yes there is, he draws the dotted line showing where the blade shape is cut out and you can see the curve is cut off, its plain as day and he says in the chaters about they ater the curveiture, so yes he does. and the guy at the museum backs this up and says they cut them down. The point is not make them straight but to make a sword, the issue is the end up straight. with that slight back curve. you are oplaying sementics here.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 I am not arguing that nagamaki or even longer earlier period blades were cut down , I am not arguing that the kissaki was re shaped. However , there would still be curvature , less depending on where the cut down was made. The cutting edge, which you would agree is curved , yes? would remain so.
you said 'according to this gentleman they shaved the top of the curve off to make it straight' he did not say that, you inferred that from a dashed line on the drawing. True or not?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield you are not being objective about the image and the quote. reshape the sword, change its curviture. do they make it MORE curved? no, so do they make it straighter? yes. so they make a curved sword straighter and as you see by the pic it is only about 1mm. then in teh 1600's they say straight katana. only you can not see the conection. only you wsh to say it did not exist. no objective at all. last post to you sorry. just too many from you and not forward moving.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 I don't mean this offensively, but perhaps you don't actually know that much about japanese sword/nagainata structure, history from various periods and so you are giving/attempting a layman's approach. Unfortunately that doesn't help you in this topic i.e not knowing a muzori etc, It seems you are grasping at trying to come up with a plausible theory of how a straight sword with square tsuba can end up being associated with ninjutsu and then searching for history to confirm it.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 Obviously I mean how a straight sword became associated with ninjutsu prior to Stephen Hayes,
diargo2001 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Your lack of understaing is being shown here, the straightening of the curve is a consequence of the process of shortening the blade, not the aim. The reshaping of the kissaki is not to make the blade straight. The curve is produced by the quenching process and differential hardening of the blade, you would either have to redo that to curve it more or remove steel from the shinogi which would weaken it. SO you shorten the blade and because of where the original curve is its straighter
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Thanks for including the quote this time, however can you help provide the context... In other words which document? Who said it? An image of the original text would probably be best or at least someway for the public to view it?
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 its all on buffons video.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008; The quote you mention in the video above isn't mentionned in Buffoon's video. I would like to know the name, date of the document where you obtain the reference to 'if you wear such a straight sword' .
I'm glad that you have admitted that the images are taken from that source, as there are multiple editons of that book with different representations of the sword curvature, confirming it is more than likely merely an artistic impression.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 there are hundreds of versions in his video, the document is not authored or it has several theories, it is mid 1600's. it was reprinted many times and has many editions. are you saing i have made it up. man, its there, all the info you need. now join the talk on the quote from a REAL historical document.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@diargo2001 you just posted about the document again. why are you the only person who does not know what this document is. Buffon has about 30 versions of it in his video, he has given the kanji in his information. I can not type kanji on this computer, it is all in the first video. please keep up with teh argument. the document is a real one and buffon and dean and Japan think its real. only you seem to not understand this.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 I know exactly what the document is, I wanted you to explicitly state your source as opposed to leaving others to 'discover' the information. I agree the document is real, you failed to reference the document just showing images from various editions of said document. I wanted clarification and it has taken till now for you to actually confirm that it is indeed the document.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 So in future when you make these videos, please actually reference the sources of images or quotes from the published works etc. I don't aim to attribute words nor twist them (as opposed to what your PM stated) I in fact will respond to the words that you use. Thus me wanting you to publicly accept that the zohyo monogatari was your source.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 i will make the videos as i see fit thank you very much for your advice. You were behind the argument. It was well established where to find which book it was from. Now, do you agree or disagree that it says a straight sword? yes or no? Why is this not proof? if something says Togakure in the future, i am sure that if i ignore it i will be mobbed! Now back to the point, 1600's straight sword, one 2 quotes, 1800's document. in musems. please tell me how this is not a fact?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
So, are you arguing that the 'ninjato' i.e. a chokuto blade with that tip, shorter , with that particular scabbard existed, because a chokuto is much different from an uchi gatana, is it not. There is still curve, minimal though is is and it was not 'made' straight it was a consequence of shortening. And the low quality sharpened bit of slab steel argument would not apply as they were still traditionaly made blades, although where all this scrap steel lying around was who knows
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield that has never been my argument ever. i never said anything about that, that info comes from modern ideas. i was looking for a straight sword, i found it. it was hacked up from a spear. there are images of straight blades with square tsubas. no problems.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 so why the wording on your first video of 'Ninja sword' found in history.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield I'm really thinking it was a 'Strawman', because I've 'found straight swords in japanese history' would have been met with a shrug and meh... I find his obsession with Don Roley a little worrying, and after reading Don's blog he clearly states a straight sword, square tsuba in relation to ninja/ninjutsu anyway.
diargo2001 1 year ago
10:33 the blade has a square tsuba yes , but if you apply a straight line , as you do in other drawings to prove straight or curved, throught the centre of the Tsuka or for that matter its edges then in fact the endof the saya is out side this and would seem to suggest curved.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield I have to agree with you on this one, the angle of the tsuka in relation to the tip indicates a curvature..
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 can not find your post, so flippin many. its worded like that because in the west this is a ninja sword now i am telling people it is real but NOT a ninja sword
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 So there is no ninja sword... but in the past there were some square tsuba used on swords, some swords may have appeared to be straighter then others, Ashigaru sometimes had nagamaki naoshi, Ashigaru were generally lower class, Bansenshukai says that lower class are better at I nin ....We can agree : )
However... Some Greeks are logicians and some logicians are tiresome; therefore, some Greeks are tiresome...is an invalid logic argument...
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 no thats not what i am saying in full. Yes some where considered straight by the 1600's people (FACT), yes they are not ninja swords. But they became known or conected to teh ninja sword. I even say in teh video i will now give an idea. in-nin by asjigaru. i said it is not a ninja sword but here is some information. i never said this was a theory i am putting forward. i do NOT think its a ninja sword. at all. what is your contribution? I am giving info and telling people things.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 my contribution is sifting through the surrounding guff. From two vids, all you have, is essentially a quote from a document that is yet to be named, validated, crosschecked or referenced without the context that the quote is made, whether it is the full quote to allow closer inspection. If it checks out when this info is provided then it would provide/contribute validation.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield what? no it does not. the curve is seen, you are simply trying to find a negative. look at the text, straight Katana. its there. 100% its real in a document in the 1600's. I hope you do not mind this type of question if you ever find Togakure proff. LOL
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 No it does , I have checked , it indicates a curved in the same way you applied to your initial evidence to prove a curve, try . I am not the one presenting evidence , and yes If i presented evidence i would want and expect healthy sceptitsism , i would also expect people to request sources and provenance. so should you.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
8:08 - My improession , although i need to back this up with a quote is that although the 'Taijutsu' and weapons pictures were taken from Togakure ryu and its practitioners, the clibing etc wasnt. And what the picture shows is a square tsuba , the blade is not visible
8.50 I think it has been stated before that a lot of what was in Mr Hayes books departed from mainline teaching , so it does not follow that this is 'from hatsumi', an example would be translation of koku in history and traditions
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield there is no way to answer this without sounding negative, but are you serious? its there plain as day in the museum, its on the picture. you are not very objective are you?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 sorry , in reference to what. What am I not being objective about exactly.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield again can not find your post and i will say it AGAIN and this is the last time so please listen. He says they change the curviture, ok, we have that. then he shows a drawing of them CUTTING it OFF. Change the curiture, cut it off, make it more straight, i explain all thsi in the video, again i have explained it here. they chopp of the curved end, making it more straight. only you do not seem to understand this?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
A number of questions and points
at 1:06 - you state 'there are lots of straight swords in this period' - what is is your evidence for this extrapolation, and if there were lots ,including - samura as the quote state - where are they
1.17 SO the quote, is that taken from the same document as the pictures are from, is that the original japanese as written in the document, if so when was it written i.e. which edition and is that a modern transkation of the old japanese or the original japanese
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield also the quote , is incomplete and without the context - can you provide the text prior to 'therefore'
yes we know uchigatana existed, and many many many cut down blades exist and are not thrown away - i have owned a couple
the quote you post is ' nagamki are reshaped into katana or wakazashi thus altering their length and curve' - does it state they were reshaped into straight blades in the smae book - do not have my copy with me as in work
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield the book states this:
'Nagamaki-naoshi is the term used for a blade that has been reshaped into a katana or wakizashi, thus altering its original length and curvature.'
That is all it states on the page that was included in the vid above.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 So on that point antony is it you or the author of that sword text that is saying it was re shaped into a straight blade, as from the ones I have seen , interms of reshaped swords , the tip etc would be preserved and the nakago would be reshapen, in fact i owned an interesting exam with half the mei missing and two distinc patina with a division signifying the reshaping point.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@diargo2001 then look at the imge which shows 100% the curve taken out and then phone the britich royal armouires and have a chat with them.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield i answer this, they are thrown away at the end of the edo period, just like knives and some end up in a museum. sorry same answer. its there in hiustory, on paper, in image and in teh museum. you just have to get used to the isea, that Hatsumi brought that thing to the public. sorry.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Why are they thrown away at the end of the edo period - what is your evidence to back that statement up. Other low quality , non signed swords from earlier periods exist do they not?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
OK I understand, you are saying where hatsumi got the Ninjato idea was from edo period muzori sword, is that correct?
(I am not good at listening English-English.)
But muzori isn't "straight", it has a little curve.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi i do not know what that is, but yes, any blade that was cut down and as a result was straighter, as said in the text. but i do not know where hatsumi got it from
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Can someone explain me?
Does antony think he discovered muzori first time in history?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi I am not sure, I think we all know an uchi gatana existed , which because of the reshaping at the nakago end would appear straighter , but still has some curve. They were not made straight with a kokimassu type kissaki in chokuto form. There seems to be an try to link these type of of swords to justify the existance of the 'ninjato form' but even if you have a muzori blade with moko or square tsuba , it is still not a chokuto ninjatou
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi nope, but i will explain to you that in the west everyone thinks its a ninja sword, and i will explain to you antony is the first on this site to put it all together and antony thinks he found a fefferance to a stright sword in the 1600.s thats what antony thinks :)
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Nope, a ninjato is a very specific bit of kit, simply comparing it to a straight sword is actually incorrect. Thus the unjustified assertion that 'in the west everyone thinks its a ninja sword' is a falsehood. Antony why stick to the 1600s? straight swords existed in japan further back during the kofun period.
diargo2001 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TSOAS2008
>he found a fefferance to a stright sword in the 1600.s
It's not good idea to distort fact as a historian to match with your expectation.
Muzori isn't straight.
And square tsuba that me and others said existed meant square tsuba with round corner.
That's what usually we see.
Not the kind that Ninjato has.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
Ok so as far as Stephen Hayes and Hatsumi quotes on ninjato go, read this: stephenkhayes(dot)com/2010/10/31/ninja-sword-non-controversy/
Also I think hacking away with a straight blade would require less skill than a curved sword would and the straight tip on the ninjato is intended to pierce armor.
sonicredcr 1 year ago
Thanks for the info, perhaps is was because they were cheap to make and that the people who used them were poor that they would rattle, so to s