A Conversation: Tim Keller, John Piper, D.A. Carson (1 of 6)

[Tink71165]

Fruitfulness = numbers of people "saved?" Maybe that guy claiming to BELIEVE just wants a sandwich, first?

[amittodedistraho]

Aside all seriousness and that this is fantastic to listen to, Piper's expressions are hilarious.

[DavidEdwardSchnell]

oh, man!

[polopowers1]

The problem is understanding of the gospel. The gospel is not synomonous with evangelism. The gospel literally is three things; love of the poor, love the brethren, evangelism. We do not exist to obliviate anything. Christ said you will always have the poor with you. Loving the brethren is not the same love as for the world, and God has chosen His elect. Be led by the Spirit in the" moment" there is no set format.Sometimes we preach exclusively; sometimes we feed the poor. Be led by the Spirit

[john17v17]

@polopowers1 I can't agree with your definition of the gospel. The gospel is the message of what God has done, in Christ,& how and why He did it. It is a verbal message, to be proclaimed in words. This is the NT understanding of 'the gospel'. Now, granted the gospel does demand a response from us - one of repentance & faith in Christ. As true believers then begin to follow Christ, they should, & will, do acts of mercy to others. But what WE do is not 'the gospel'.

[polopowers1]

@polopowers1 Did you read I said it is evangelism ,(speaking) but it is not evagelism exclusive. Read what Jesus said was the gospel Feeeding the poor,love of brethren Even James who said the Word was not enough but they should feed the poor don't send them away saying be warmed and filled.What we do or don't do was not the question it is what is the gospe>l it is saying evangelism, love, feed.I can't undestand how you did not see me write it is what Jesus spoke. I guess I shoud have said speak.

[john17v17]

@polopowers1 I agree that believers should do good to all, especially other believers. But feeding the poor etc is not the gospel! This is very important.

Consider 1Cor15. Paul starts with " I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you", he goes on "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures", he talks of the resurrection of Christ, & in v11 he makes clear that this is the only gospel he & the other apostles preach. He doesn't mention good works we do at all.

[polopowers1]

@john17v17 You keep confusing evangelism with gospel. What gospel did the seventy go out and preach. They did not preach death of Christ They did not understand Christ was going to die. So what gospel did they preach.? The gospel is evangelism I repeat the third time But it is not exclusive to evangelism. Paul's gospel to the Gentiles was a gospel he only received Eph 3, the mystery. The seventy preached another gospel under law Paul was reminded by elders don't forget poor while preaching

[john17v17]

@polopowers1 They did not preach the death of Christ because it had not yet happened, which ought to be so obvious it doesnt need stating. The church (which today means believers in Christ POST-his death & resurrection!) was commanded by Christ in Matt 28 to go into all the world with the gospel of repentance/faith in Christ. Throughout Acts the apostles begin to do this, & their proclamation was always verbal, telling of His death for our sins,resurrection, & repentance/faith in Him!

[polopowers1]

@john17v17 Obvious to who? you said the gospel only meant death and resurrection of Christ found in 1 Cor 15. you forgot the original question Can gospel have different meanings other than the death and resuurrection. And was there a gospel preached more than that simple definition. And there was.You don't know whom your communicating with, you lost all perspective to original thought Your still reciting nothing The gospel meaning is more than evangelism Evangelism is verbal Gospel not always

[john17v17]

@polopowers1 I don't see much point in trying to debate this further with you, as it seems to be generating more heat than light in your responses. If you want to study the matter in depth, you might start with visiting thegospelcoalition website , check out the resources incl. sermons/teaching/study materials by many respected scholars. All I will insist on in closing with you is that correctly understanding what 'the gospel' is, is vital for biblically faithful ministry. Study it.

[john17v17]

@polopowers1 May I ask you something? Are you right with God? If so, how?

The Gospel is not what we do. It is a message of what God has done. This is the only Gospel the apostles knew. Paul makes clear in 1Cor15 that his gospel is all about what God in Christ did through Jesus' death & resurrection, and Paul also makes clear in v11 that all the other apostles preached exactly the same gospel. You keep confusing your own works with the gospel.

[polopowers1]

@john17v17 the arrogance of your question, the gospel is not un equivocally evangelism of. I also told you the gospel is 1 cor;15. And your arrogance is to ask me if I know God and how.I never said saved is in what we do I said part of the gospel can be understood as taking care of the poor.Tell me which gospel the seventy preached? not the death of Christ Read lk 10:,17 Lk 18:34 they understood another gospel in Lk 10 Gal 2: 9,10 The elders told Paul while your preaching forget not the poor

[polopowers1]

@john17v17 I confuse my own works with the gospel? did you ever hear me tell you I feed the poor.? Did you hear me tell you works can save.? No, but your limited defining me instead of what I said, The gospel I SAID clearly is evangelism but not exclusively called evagelism Nothing Else.The gospel is more in Meaning than death of Christ good news was preached with no mention of death for understanding Paul in Eph 3 the mystery gospel could not be the gospel of MK Matt LK John. it was hidden

[polopowers1]

@john17v17 I've preached the gospel for thirty three years I began in hell's kitchen New York, South Bronx, Harlem. and the last fifteen years at a major university in the southwest.I know the gospel is evangelism and I know by experience. Not like some who speak much gospel evangelism ,do little. I know what the gospel word was and means today.But a good word study on humility is good for those whose head is in the books.I'm offended you thought you can challenge my being saved and give advice

[epitomizelogos]

Amazing. To God be the glory!

[RockpointeBand]

brilliant...

[Gernatch]

Is this conversation taking place inside a giant trash bag? =\

[princetebow]

@Gernatch HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[SomeCallMeD]

@Gernatch Right? They gather three brilliant minds together for a deep theological conversation and put them in a room lined with black plastic? I'm not huge on aesthetics, but this is just kinda weird.

[john17v17]

@Gernatch Yep the set dressing is really weird. I wonder if it was directed by a media studies student with aspirations of breaking into 'art house' cinema? If so, they forgot to dub it into Polish, then add Swedish subtitles and weird camera angles ;-) Wise words from Keller,Piper,Carson though.

[bretzagar]

@Gernatch haha

[GraceChurchSC]

Thanks for posting all that you have here....I hope you will continue to use this resource so churches like ours can benefit from such gospel wisdom.

[mrspogadaeus]

"Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men."

2 Corinthians 5:11 NIV

It is MERCIFUL to preach the gospel, but some people think that the gospel is only made up of Good News. Logically there must be bad news first for anything after it to be good news... for there to be bad news there must be a standard by which bad is measured and for there to be good news there must be a like standard. That standard is God's Word.

[ekimup]

that questioner has a good statement at the end

[ekimup]

GOD I EFFING LOVE PIPER!

[amairaja]

As someone coming from a poor country I have seen so many times when good Christians just get into sin because of poverty. When a missionary is paid $ 50 per month, and he couldn't pay school fee for his kids then the question that issue of equality is not given due importance comes up. All agree that Gospel is not mercy vs word. But when you are hungry and so much of crime is being committed due to starvation, you want to emphasis on mercy ministry too.

[fromthesestones]

John Piper is so melodramatic. It is a good think he is also very well spoken or it would be hard for me to overlook. I've made my peace with this great man.

[cawoodm]

Hell is "at the center of the Gospel" Piper? Funny how neither Jesus nor Paul thinks so or uses hell in that way. Paul has no interest in hell yet he's always talking about the Gospel.

Jesus uses hell almost exclusively to warn against treating the poor badly.

[swingman24]

"Jesus uses hell almost exclusively to warn against treating the poor badly."

Hahahahahahaha!!! That's hilarious! No, seriously, what do you really think the Bible and Jesus teach about hell?

[chukmaty]

With all due respect I would disagree. Christ uses hell very centrally in expressing humanities need for him.

Cruelty towards the poor is indeed one heinous crime for which we need to be forgiven and turn away from sin towards righteousness. Christ is very firm on issues other than mistreatment of the poor... the sanctity of marriage, protecting children, not distorting the law, humility, and showing how he was the fulfillment of Judeo prophecy and the only way to the Father.

[GenerousKee]

@cawoodm

"Jesus uses hell almost exclusively to warn against treating the poor badly. "

That is the point I think they were making. Ministry to the poor ministers to both the giver and the receiver. Motivating those who will be givers is perhaps the better way of thinking about the commentary you speak about. Hell is not as much a motivational point of reference for the poor but is powerful for those equipped to give but who choose not to give.

[AKhomiakov]

Lovely men with warm, Christian hearts and great learning. Nonetheless, they seem stuck in the false dilemmas of an evangelical piestism that has never really worked out the full implications of the incarnation. Sound almost gnostic at some points: Jesus rescues us from this world and takes us to our true home.  We need better, especially from these Godly men. No need to apologize for compassion. Time to spend and be spent.

[jonathonwwilliams]

you know, Jesus taught us this with the guy who's friends let him through the roof of the house that He was teaching in. Jesus forgave the guys sins and then perceiving that some were questioning His authority to forgive sins, He called the guy to take up his bed and leave...a guy who had never walked till that point...pretty sweet huh?  The point was, and still is, is that the soul is the most important issue at hand.

[TimotheosCauvin]

That's exactly what happend to the evangelical state churches here in Germany: the social agenda of the church has become so dominant and the liberal theology so powerful that the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith has totally disappeared from the pulpits. Today it's all about therapeutical and social improvement and not about knowing GOD! Sad.

[ytrimble]

As a 32 year missionary in a third world nation I completely understand the problem of combining social ministry and evangelization ministry. In fact we are specifically focused on soul winning BUT all of our missionary friends are social ministries. Simply put it is about body ministry, not all are an eye but the eye is necessary.

[john17v17]

@ytrimble Not every believer is called to be a preacher. But all can, &should, be willing to say something in words about what happened at the cross & why, how we are guilty before God & must repent & believe to be saved.If one of your social missionary friends is the only Christian someone ever meets, how does it help them if they were cared for & fed physically, but then go into eternity never having heard of repentance/faith in Christ, because your 'social missionaries' never told them?

[telelouange]

@john17v17 Dependency on sovereign God by evangelists and social works missionaries is essential to understanding body ministry. I know I am not called to social works missions but others are and I trust God that I reach those assigned to me at the right time. Others will get to those I do not and social works missionaries do what they are called to do, "one man plants, another waters and GOD gives the increase."

[john17v17]

@telelouange You refer to 1Cor3.5-9,but a careful exegesis does not support your 'social missionaries' idea. Paul is talking about him & Apollos (v5 & v6). We know from Acts18 that Apollos "spoke with great fervor & taught about Jesus" (v25), & also that "he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah" (v.28). So Apollos was not a 'social missionary'! Far from it, he used words to tell people the gospel, just like Paul did.

[telelouange]

@john17v17 One man plants, another waters and God gives the increase. That is body ministry, we all have a different call and He saves whom He will.

[john17v17]

@telelouange See my other comment re 1Cor3, which says nothing at all about 'social work missionaries'. All believers who can speak are called to give account in words of the gospel. Not all are preachers, but the idea that some Christians are called to be exclusively non-verbal is wrong. Too often in church history, in the name of social action what the cross is all about has been forgotten. We should care for others, but never stop preaching the gospel in words, of repentance/faith in Christ

[srilankan59]

Wow, a much needed dialogue. A true belief in the power of the gospel of grace and a vision of the poverty of sin though Christ's eyes - willl help us strike a godly balance in Gospel and mercy/justice ministries. AMEN!!

[JesusMostHigh]

Excellent.

Thanks so much.

[minckminck]

It would be fantastic if you could also get a video up with the full video, not cut up into parts. I can imagine that some might want to see these in a group or other setting, where advancing from video to video is difficult, and I am also thinking of maybe using it somewhere where it would really need to be a single video.

[TheGospelCoalition]

The full version will be coming soon.