@miking193 Yes ofcourse. That's absolutely logical. Since it's also a depraved mind who doesn't believe in unicorns, leprechauns or allah. Depraved minds don't believe in Vishnu or Xenu... you know the alien from Scientology. Thor, Votan, Mithras, Isis, Zeus, Hera and Zoroaster, the Jade Emperor and not believing in all these gods is because of our depraved mind.
@Subher0 you pretty much right most people are under a strong delusion whether they believe in Allah, Zeus Vishnu, or Xenu probably some of the same fallen angels showing themselves differently to different cultures. Or if you believe in no God, or think you serve Christ but your life here is more important to you then following him to the kingdom of heaven you probably under a strong delusion
@miking193 But the matter where I have a problem with is that there is no real distinction to be made between them, and they have one big thing in common, the matter that they all lack the evidence for their existance. Jezus and Isis, e.g., are really thesame person. They have thesame attributes and similar circumstances in experience in birth, life and death. But staggers me is how you can say Jezus is the real god, and Isis the fallen angel. Why can't it be the other way around?
@Subher0 Isis Jesus myth has been around for a hundred years & was discreditited 100 years ago, watch a video on the Jesus Myth or a debate about, there are several good books that detail how the Jesus Myth is shoty research, or outright lie. Many of the supposed similarities don't apply Jesus probably wasn't born on Dec 25, the Catholics came up with stuff like this to help the transition over from paganism,
@miking193 Well I took Isis as one example but in fact there are many gods in ancient history that share alot of the circumstance jesus was born in, lived and died. Including resurection and returning after 3 days etc. born of a virgin blah blah blah and so on and so on. There is truth behind this matter and I can't say that indeed paganism had something to do with it... because the bible contains many pagan ideas and ways of dealing with things... blood sacrifice ring a bell?
@Subher0 sure there a lot common, even in alot of the ritual done in churches today is mostly pagan, the steeple, one guy speaks at a pulpit this this is all pagan.The robes the priest where, the funny hats. There's a good book called Pagan Christianity. The key is who copied whom? Did the Jews & Christians copy pagan religions or vice versa or is their a mixture. The key to Christianty are original, Jesus being the messiah dying for the worlds sins is unique,
@Subher0 If you research the Jesus myth is he a combo of these other pagan dieties, the 12 apostles, Mother Mary father Joesph, etc.. You find out the first one written to have these attributes is Jesus, & the pagans copied after the spread of Christianty, don't trust me, do the research it's out there, however you can find lots of pagan rituals used in most modern churches which have become apostate, going to church isn't even in the Bible, it says the people are the church, not a building
@miking193 There are many more things that were made about Jesus in that time that are NOT in the bible today because the early church picked and chose what was to be in the bible, the first biblical canon to be installed and FOUR MORE TO COME over the following 2000 years... so the bible you read has been edited 5 times since all the texts were written... and most of them were left out. You can't even be sure your bible is the word of god, let alone the fact if there is a god.
@Subher0 Not a bad point, we have read most of the books taken out Enoch, Tobit, Jasher, I think it was a mistake to take them out, I also believe that certain verses or chapter such as Romans 13 were doctored by King James to make the people more submissive to the king, instead of the holy spirit. Where in the Greek words for angels or powers (diving beings) have been watered down to todays translations say cops & judges. Still with the holy spirit God left a way to help us understand the word
@miking193 So you think that reading a doctored bible is fine by a god, that will punish you with eternal punishment for a simple a thing as "looking to another women with lust"?
I don't know, these questions are very simple and you should start asking yourself some more to see wether your belief is really justified. I don't know, do you want the truth or do you want what's comfortable? That's the first question you should ask. Then stop thinking about "god" being equivalent to "truth".
@Subher0 oh please being a Christian has nothing to do with being comfortable, it promises who ever lives for Jesus will be persecuted & that if you are like Jesus the world will hate you like it hated him, because the world loves darkness & he exposes it. Jesus said the road is narrow & few are on it & there'd be many fakes & false teachers, Jesus doesn't want any of us to perish, people chose to reject God or put him first, & so bring on their own choice or eternal seperation from God
@miking193 How would you CHOOSE to reject something that will put you in ETERNAL TORTURE for it. We don't BELIEVE god exists OR hell OR heaven, it's not a CHOICE, it's a LOGICAL consequence of the available evidence[= zero].
No it's just a simple question, you feel safe and secure as a Christian, and the real world out there is pretty scary I agree. But would you be able to let Christianity go if you'd come to realise your faith makes no sense in many ways?
@Subher0 trust me I get more persecution for being a Christian then when i wasn't. Not until I was 21 was I a believer, my family doesn't want to hear about, they're mostly Catholic or skeptical, I have lost many of friends, who don't want to be around me as a Christian, I get called a dummy all day long on the computer, & I praise God for it, because this is what he said would happen, & it let's me know I am on the right path & I will get rewarded for the persecution it harder for as a believer
@miking193 Yes, and thesame will happen if you're in a Christian community, with "good" Christians just like yourself and turn atheist. Did god say that would happen too? He doesn't say actually to hate apostates, he says they deserve to die. I haven't called you a dummy, but dumb answers can sometimes come from smart people. And I know the origin of those answers are not stupidity, but the emotional dependancy on the religion, and the incapability of seeing the flaws in it.
@Subher0 Jesus said to love my enemies, and to feed, clothe shelter them. He'll deal people when the die, but Christians are called to love everybody, & treat them they way they'd want to be treated no matter what. I don't care what you call me, I want you to know God, my life would be emotionally a lot easier if I didn't believe all this, I have lost countless friends & have lost lots of ties with my family over are beliefs & how we act them out, we don't do this because it's emotionally easier
@miking193 Read again what i said. I didn't say you became a Christian to lead an emotional easy life... I said you were emotionally dependant on your religion now which makes it hard for you to let go even though it has many flaws.
And maybe Jesus tells you to love everybody, but he sure doesn't love apostates himself.
@Subher0 he would love them if they'r turn & repent, he loved them when he created them but is upset that they have repeatedly rejected him, I disagree I don't know of any flaws, & I have heard all the popular claims of the flaws, but I disagree with them, if I thought it was flawed why would stay in harder belief, when my life would be a lot easier to go with the flow & reject Jesus Christ, or not take it seriously
@Subher0 no person is going to the lake of fire for looking at one woman with lust, it'll be years of bad choices, & unrepentance. We can repent & be saved but most choice not to, they'd rather go with the comfort here, then the promises of eternal life. I have no problem answering questions from skeptics, or being questioned I have the truth I have nothing to hide, everyone has a conscience one of the ways God speaks to us, he will teach you the scriptures himself, you don't need another man
@miking193 Well if I'd have some evidence of an eternal afterlife I would be more than happy to live this life towards that. But I see an eternal life in itself as a punishment, but that aside.
It's not that I "choose" not to be "saved" you think I make a choice "hmm I go with god or I don't" and that I consciously make the choice "no god". This is a common misunderstanding. How can you choose between something that we know is real, and what we don't know is real?
@Subher0 Faith, I have not seen God in person, & then decided to follow him, or got a free pass up to the kingdom of heaven for the weekend to check it out, it's all on faith. I have as much evidence as you, with that evidence I go this is worth hoping for If you search there is tons of evidence not just in books, or videos, but God is everywhere in nature in love, in emotions in science labs God is eveywhere & there's no limit to how to find Christ if you seek him above all else you'll find him
@miking193 That is the position I'm standing in. But you're already certain of your truth then how would you ever be able to change your mind if you "know" you're certain? You must admit there is a chance you're wrong and it's possible in this world to be WRONG about something. I can't prove there is NO god but you can't prove there IS a god. Saying otherwise is WRONG, it's a lie. You may think you have evidence, but have you ever really thought about IF it ACTUALLY is?
@Subher0 sure i think about it, that i could be wrong that I'm in the wrong religion or the wrong sect of Christianty or that there is no God. I have gone from almost no belief to the occult New age, to know being a Christian I have changed my mind several times. However I have never believed in anything else the way I believe In Jesus Christ now, & the doubt get less & less when I have a relationship with God & see his influence on my life, proof no, that's why it's called faith
@miking193 And the key point here is you need to break free from that fear you have, or that deep desire you have to go to heaven, and take a neutral standpoint and say "ok, what have I got to work with". In case of a religion, all you have to work with is the book, writings altered and changed over the years, poorly translated etc. from a HIGH possibility of human authorship [without divine intervention] and things in the bible contradicting the known world and often itself.
@Subher0 decent points up to here, I don't fear anything anymore but eternal judgment, before I was afraid of a lot more, losing my hair, what others thought of me, how many girls liked me, was I in shape enough, bills, etc. now all that has vanished I'm in the best relationship of my life, & my wife & i put God first, are biggest concern is helping each other get closer to God, not fitting in a some Church, the people are the church not the building.
@Subher0 there is more evidence then the book first lets talk about the book, the translations we have today match the original Greek text up to 99% the 1 & in question doesn't deal with doctrinal issues so the book is very well traslated except for parts in the new testament about the need to obey civil govenrments or you'll go to hell that was put in by King James to subdue the English & it makes no sense why would not listening to Hitler cause you to go to hell? other than that, its preserved
@miking193 So it comes down to the fact you only have that book to go by. That book has a high probability of being wrong in itself, like standard.
You've got the fact of HIGH probability of human authorship and you've got the errors creeped in over the years, AND you have the contradictions with the known world and contradictions between different verses AND contradicting modern Christians about the nature of god [god = love while in the bible he commits murder etc.]
@Subher0 take near death experiences you have people who are clincally dead, no heart rate, no electrical activity in the brain, no electrical activity equals no sending signals in the brain, & many of this people who were dead, rose up over their bodies & saw people around the hall recited conversations in other rooms etc, & when they came to, they reported this to the nurses or doctors, & what is eerie is they saw things if even alive they wouldn't been able to at their vantage point
@Subher0 with near death experiences like that, to me it shows a difference between the physical body & the spirit & something living past the body no longer functions. You might laugh at this, but in the Bible the people God has the Jews kill very likely were half breeds placed their by the devil & fallen angels, nephilim half human half fallen angels, it's why they were so tall. God hates genetic spilicing because it goes against his natural order, that's why he had them killed.
@miking193 Oh and according to the bible, these people are sinners, and sinners go to hell. With god it IS black or white. I suggest again you read up on your bible.
@Subher0 thanks for the suggestion, never a bad thing to read it more. You are right it's black or white, we're all sinners, only those who accept Jesus Christ as their sin offering, their pass over, the messian, will God pass over them & not see them as sinners but as his children everyone else is headed for the lake of fire, & it scares me for others I don't want anyone to go there that's why we're on here to warn people the best we can, & on the streets in our life
@miking193 Which is in itself a moral construct devoid of any common sense, and immoral in itself. You don't put the child in jail for the crime his father comitted. In no way, sense, shape or form is that a morally accepted proposition, but then again, your god is not moral. The fact you go out on the street harassing people with a fairy tale is one of the reasons why religion is so polarised. You come to us as if you know it all, where it began and where it will end, contrairy to the evidence.
@Subher0 the child doesn't have to pay, Jesus Christ paid for the mistake he took the tab for everyone even though he was innocent, all you have to do is believe on him, not bail yourself out or climb a mountain, the choice is your's whether you will go to prison or take his free gift out of it, & onto eternal life in heaven. Yes you didn't commit the original sin, but neither do you have to pay for it, both things were done without you, thus being fair.
@miking193 But it still lacks common sense. The child is still guilty for a crime his father comitted by default. So god first says you are guilty, BUT he created a loophole for you, by sacrificing himself to himself, all you have to do is believe in that sacrifice, and he did it knowing it all in advance it would happen this way. This is not fair. He creates the condition, and then he creates the loophole out of it, demanding worship in the process.
@Subher0 yes man after Adam & Eve didn't deserve the sin nature they are born with, they didn't commit the crime themselves, but neither do they have to pay their bail out, God did it for them so it's just, that they don't have to earn their way out,
@miking193 Again it's an absurdity to sacrifice yourself to yourself for a sin you allowed to commit and knew that was going to happen, and then loophole with a blood sacrifice. It's not one way "to look at it" that's just what it is, call a cat a cat.
@Subher0 yes he provides the way out, why does this upset you, why is God being the savior & doing the work for us bother you? You allowed the sin because he didn't make us robots but gave us free choice, if you don't like free will maybe you like Lucifer because he's all about having you follow him without a choice take the mark of the beast or die
@miking193 You're completely missing the point. It does not bother me, it stupifies me how he set up the system. First he creates a world, which after Adam he knew was going to be born in sin [so yes, he created that too] and then he creates his own loophole in the form of a BLOOD sacrifice. And AGAIN god does NOT allow free choice because ALL is PRE DETERMINED. Please read because you talk about robots you sure sound like one.
@Subher0 Adam was born with sin, after he ate from the apple Satan tricked him into eating sin entered into the world, by man rebeling against God & following the devil instead. If Adam never ate of the apple Cain could have Abel could have down to me or you, the problem was the devil who God knew had rebeled because man was given dominion not him, & he didn't like free will, I read the first book of Adam & Eve, anyway God gives man a chance to be forgiven Christ but not the angels
@miking193 Yes and it is fallacious, I looked it up. It's still god interfering with free will, because even though it seems you make choice B between option A and B, god has still put you in the position where you would choose B. Now total free will would be "I don't know what he's going to choose", until the choice has been made, rendering god non omniscient. If god knew what he was going to choose, then that was god's will, and he put you in that position, according to Molinism.
@Subher0 thank you for looking it up, most people don't, it sounds like you care enough about this subject to at least new things up. I don't think it's fallacious because God knows what we will chose given the chance, he didn't create us wound up predetermined to chose A or B he gave us all the free will, but some will chose B on their own, God didn't wind the up to chose B they chose it, I guess for them it be better if he never created them, if B is to reject him
@miking193 Maybe indeed, but then still god isn't off the hook. Because if there is so called free will given by god, there are many other problems with it. Since free will is the choice between two or more things, then I would, in heaven, not be able to choose between doing good or evil. That means heaven has no free will. In this way god allows evil done on earth through the free will of mankind, knowing that some people would choose the bad alternative.
@Subher0 yes I guess in the afterlife there are restrictions we get to chose which place we want to live in now. A place where evil is restricted such as in Heaven or a place where love & pleasure is restricted such as the lake of fire. To me it seems easy to want to live in world where evil is banished I don't like the evil here not in myself or in others, I can't wait to see it banned, but I know only God can do that
@miking193 But when you can't do evil in heaven, then your free will is restricted... so god allows evil into this world by giving us free choice, that means that either free will is possible without evil existing, meaning that god doesn't really love us while we're on earth, or that free will isn't really a "gift" as explained. Either way god is not the loving entity you claim it to be. You can twist yourself into believing it, but it doesn't make it less true.
@Subher0 Yes we can pick to live in a world where there is no evil, where we can't choice evil because it will be gone, that's in heaven. We pick to live there now, so I am using my freewill to say I'd want to live there, & see the evil in me banish, as long as evil in general be banished that's worth dying for, that's better than any possibility or life I could have here an eternity of love & no evil
@miking193 Gone? But if I decide to attack someone in the afterlife, let's say someone who killed a person dear to me...
The question was not "can this world be without evil" .. I made the statement that A) Can we commit evil acts in heaven or not? [like the example above] If not, then your free will is restricted unless you say that god created free will so that it is possible to have it without evil, then why did he create free will on earth WITH evil? Because god is not good...
@Subher0 God has given us the choice to be with Him and live righteously or to be with Satan and live apart from Him. We choose to be with God or without Him. Once we've chosen God, we've chosen to abstain from evil. At judgment, the sin nature is tossed into the Lake of Fire, we have chosen an eternity with our Heavenly Father and to be one of His, not a spawn of Satan. It's not a hard choice, but God gives us free will to choose.
@miking193 No you're again making this into a false dichotomy. I did not choose to "not believe" in god I just don't because I haven't been convinced there is one. Why would one retain from evil if all you ever have to do is believe in Jesus? I can kill someone and end up in heaven, but I could only lie and end up in hell. This isn't righteous judgement, this is a twisted psychological mindgame. You can fling "it's not a hard choice" at me as much as you want, it remains a sick choice...
@Subher0 you said "I just don't because I haven't been convinced there is one." that is your decision & why you chose that way, can you see you made the choice not to believe in God or seek above all else, & your reason is because you're not convinced there is a God. All sin is evil before God. We have all sinned great & small. The only ones who have their sins forgiven & forgotten are those who accept Jesus Christ & then obey him
@miking193 you raised a good point some people who call themselves Christians say they can sin all they want because the believe in Jesus, they could murder someone & it be ok, but if you're atheist & you lie well you going to the lake of fire. This not true, Jesus said many would say to him Lord Lord & he say "away from me I never knew you" N they go to the lake of fire, this might even be me. If one believes on Jesus Christ their works will display it, they'll be loving self sacrificing
@miking193 So now it's works I thought the centerpiece of Christianity is that you don't have to do works all you have to do is believe in god or jesus or whatever. The onyl thign that doesn't get you forgiveness is blaspheming the "holy ghost". So what you're saying is contradicting the bible again. This conversation is also evident of how multi-interpretable the bible is. If god wanted his perfect word to be understood, the why does everybody understand it differently?
@Subher0 only Dawkins think the likelihood is low, to have a creator over creation makes more sense, then now matter how far back, (matter time space) created themselves. God speaks to all of us through the conscience. God is spirit in our minds we can't see God physically but everyone one of us has thoughts that are invisible to others but this I believe is God & demons are. The good thoughts God the bad ones demons
@miking193 First off, you believe these thoughts is god. We can monitor brain activity, alot of it are chemicals, so there is a physical nature to thoughts. You say your thoughts are god, prove it. And again, how do you know the good thoughts is your god? How do you know it's not a bad entity claiming to be god, and you believe him? How do you know that what you call "devil" or "demon" isn't actually the good guy? You don't, because you can't prove any of it, even their existance.
@miking193 No that's not a choice. You can set up a line saying "alright this would convince me" and with religion that line hasn't been crossed, by far. I set up the terms for me to be convinced so it's not a choice it's a matter of how much can you give me that shows the likelihood of there being a god is high. ATM the likelihood is very low. You can deny it and say you have faith, but the likelihood of there being a god is as high as there being leprechauns.
@Subher0 only Dawkins think the likelihood is low, to have a creator over creation makes more sense, then now matter how far back, (matter time space) created themselves. God speaks to all of us through the conscience. God is spirit in our minds we can't see God physically but everyone one of us has thoughts that are invisible to others but this I believe is God & demons are. The good thoughts God the bad ones demons
@miking193 Well he doesn't think it's low, it just IS low. This is not "my opinion" this is just the truth. First off if there is "creation" then there is a "creator" that's true, but we are not "creation" in the sense that you mean it. We evolved my friend, and god or no god, we still evolved. Us evolving is a FACT, the Theory of Evolution is the knowledge we have gained about how the FACT of evolution happens.
@miking193 Your father comitted a crime, a crime which I knew would happen and would condemn all his offspring henceforth... I loved your father VERY much and so will I love his offspring, but I let him commit the crime anyway... I will instead of preventing him from walking in a pit and condemning everybody henceforth, sacrifice a human being who is me incarnate, to myself and believing in him will relieve you of your father's crime.
@Subher0 yes that is one way to look at it, but if that were the case God would never given us sentient beings the free choice to love him back, he loves us, but wanted to give us the choice to love him back, & most will not, but without the choice he'd be tyrant forcing us to love him with out a choice, given the alternitive option the lake of fire sucks, it is still a choice, he made the choice very easy him or lake of fire
@miking193 One way to look at it? No that's just what it is. And he does not give us a choice, because he knows everything in advance, that nullifies your free choice because everything is pre determined.
And he made that lake of fire, so it's still your father telling you "either you love me, or you get tortured". Those are the words of a tyrant. I would not torture my kids because they don't love me back. Stop calling your god moral, he's not.
@Subher0 It's an easy choice to love God back & not go to the lake of fire, why do you have pretend that it's so hard or harsh. You don't have to climb a mountain or slay a dragon, or cure cancer just have to love God back, God gave us freewill, he might be aware of our choices because he's outside of time but he still gives us the choice, look molonism it explains how God can give us free will really well, you don't have to pick the lake of fire, just seek God above all else
@miking193 You're spinning this into like it is a choice. Remember that I do not believe god exists. You're asking me to love a negative. Now for the sake of argument, IF god would exist as described in the bible, I STILL would not love him, for I find myself more moral than the god in the bible, and so are you.
Plus you're switching again from 'it's absurd to demand your child to love you back, else you get tortured' into 'but it's not hard...' NO stick to the issue. Is it absurd or is it not?
@Subher0 if you want to call absurd fine it's an absurdly easy choice love God, have a blissful eternity, that he only has good things planned for those who love him, or be an idiot & chose to not love God back & go to get tortured forever, it is a choice we get to chose, even if you think it's dumb that's your choice, even if you think no Gods exist fine that's your choice, ps I'm not very moral on my own I was a very selfish prick
@miking193 If I want to "call it absurd"? No it IS absurd... can you please think for yourself for a second? Stop trying to say what you "should" believe and try to think about this rationally... "I set my child in the world and call it a sinner after he eats an apple that I created [and that my child got tricked by a lesser creature, with me knowing it would happen] but IT'S O.K. because I will bloodily sacrifice my son, myself in the flesh, so that sin would go away. Worship me." errrmmm
@Subher0 absurd is a subjective term it seems we are not going to agree on whether or not this absurd or not. If I'm not thinking for myself who's telling me what to type over my shoulder? He put Adam there but Adam is man not his blood son, like if you or I have a child, yes the devil is there to tempt us, but it so we can have a choice to love God back, or rebel & follow the devil & never repent & turn back to God who paid the way for our debts, all he wants is for us to love him back
@miking193 I can agree that it can be subjective. Let me pose it in a different way then. Would you do it that way? It is not consistent with the view Christians put out of god, to be mild. And as soon as we agree on that, you have an actual objection to god, so ofcourse you're not going to agree, your hands are "emotionally tied" as you might say, and must disagree.
No you're typing it. I'm just referring to the fact you fell into the trap of "whatever the pastor tells me is correct".
@Subher0 I don't have a pastor & I don't go to church both I believe are common misuses of the scriptures, so no pastor is giving me these ideas. Would I sacrifice myself to myself to forgive my children? We're made in the image of God but while human alive on earth we're different type of being still, we're not received glorified body yet. I can understand why God did it that way, he loves us, & wants us to love him back, which is better then we're forced into it, we can chose not to love him
@miking193 given then the option is the lake of fire a bad alternate choice. Choosing to love God is not him being an evil dictator. If he is who he says he is then he is a loving father who only wants the best for us, & wants us to love him back freely, he gave us life he created us, & he wants to be in a eternal loving relationship with us. This sounds great.
@miking193 So you're saying that it's a fair choice: either you love and go to heaven or either you don't and I TORTURE you forever. How many times do I need to repeat that before you understand that are not words of a loving father...
@Subher0 5 more and I'll get it. I'm not going to agree with you, I think it's an easy choice he loves & has good things planned for us, but if we want we can dismiss his love & his intended plans, & choice to suffer. The one choice is so preferable to the other
@Subher0 You don't need to constantly change your mind in order for it to be open. We both were secular / agnostic / brought up Roman Catholic and went to public school. It wasn't until we were 19 / 21 that we accepted Jesus Christ and gave our lives to Him. We're open to talking to atheists, satanists, or other faiths. In our years of walking with Christ, we've not heard anything to leave Him for. Jesus is the Truth, The Way and the Life.
@miking193 The thing is, you don't want to hear. And what can be shown by evidence, you just dismiss as evil, or you remain willingly or unwillingly ignorant of it. You should separate Jesus and truth, and decide from that point on if wether what you believe in honest judgement is really true. You're just incapable of doing that.
@Subher0 don't want to hear what? If I was afraid of evidence I wouldn't be hear talking with all this non believers, I'd keep my faith to myself & avoid discussing it & having it challenged, in the same I think you are confident about your unbelief. There is no separating Jesus from the truth he is the truth the way & the life.
@Subher0 no thats why we are here to decide that now. By what we know of him, or the hope of great he is, how great it be to be with him forever, we'd give up everything else to seek him
@Subher0 We made two videos on prayer you might want to check out - they're not Biblical, we don't use scripture. Praying shows that we love God and we want to have a relationship with Him. And lots of prayer is for repenting of our sins, and how we know what God's will is so we can do it, so that we will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. By not praying, we're saying we reject God because we don't want to talk to Him. Jesus was part of God and yet He still prayed. It's a way we talk to God.
@Subher0 yup today, My dog ran off when we cleaning out the garage we spen an hour in the rain in the wood looking for her, I repented of some sin, ironically it was of unbelief & questing God a lot lately & boom as was repenting of it, & confessing it to Nichole the dog showed up before I finished saying it, there's more to the story tha's the summary, God doesn't always answer me by showing himself & shaking my hand but more of incidents like that.
@Subher0 Those who pray are those who choose to be with God, it's one of the signs of those who want a relationship with God. If you don't pray, it shows you don't want a relationship with God. It's one of those free will choices that decides who loves God and who doesn't. Those who repent to God and try to hear His guidance are those who love God. It's the essence of those who seek God above all else.
@miking193 But then why would you ask for things to happen? If it was only a way for chit chatting with god, fine, but there is no reason to ask god for something that can no longer be changed.
@Subher0 I don't ask God to help me with things other then put the desire for you in me, because on my own, I won't desire God, I can be just as skeptical about this as anybody, I need God to put the faith in me. The things I ask for is for him to show me what he wants me to do, not for the quick check out lane or trite things that my flesh wants, but for me to have the desires he wants, & thus none of it trite if it's walking in his will
@miking193 But the "desire for me" is something you can't say god puts in you it could be all coming from yourself. "His will" is again also something you can clearly have on your own. You may pray for him to work his will through you, but in the end it can still be just all you, and not something supernatural.
@Subher0 if that;s the way you look at, I can't twist your arm into looking at as I do. In that God communicates through are conscience all day long, when I do something in will with the what God is urging me to do then, I'm not doing chores on my own, but God is inspiring me as I work. If I want say something rude to someone, but my conscience is saying no, be merciful & obey that, then I feel overwhelmed with love & like I'm following God, when I'm rude which I can be I'm just a plain jerk
@miking193 You're saying "that's the way I look at it". You know there IS something as "being wrong", and "being right". How you look at it, is just the wrong way of looking at it. The way to approach claims of the supernatural, you need a neutral standpoint. Understand that we already know much about how the world works. Within that world that we understand, is it possible this type of supernatural being exists? Your god does not meet the criteria.
@miking193 And he calls all of humanity "his children" ofcourse he made Adam "in his own image" are you now saying he did not love him? At least "as if" he was his own child? When I adopt a child, I'm not his biological father, but I sure damn will raise that child as if it were my own. Bad excuse.
If that's all he wants, that's fine. But a good father would NEVER under ANY circumstance torture his child, wether it's his own flesh like jesus [he tortured him too btw] or not.
@Subher0 We made in his image but while alive on earth we do not have his complete divine capacity, we'll still only be human a little lower then the angels, until we get our resurrected bodies. God doesn't want to torture anyone of his children but some of his children decide to leave his family & become children of the devil, who God does want to punish because the devil knew right from wrong & decided to rebel against God & lead humans & angels away too
@miking193 And before I forget... I set it up so that what your father would do would be a crime to begin with, and I've set that crime up with the worst punishment imaginable...
So think about it... god sets up everything, and puts human sacrifice up as the saving moment for all he set up to begin with. And also if you were looking for early Pagan influences in the bible as you said before, I would look to the human sacrifice that was Jesus.
@Subher0 yes they're similaties between the world religions, I believe that is they set up of the devil & his fallen angels promoting these religions to eventually all come together as one beings there all so similar anyway. The death of Jesus is different because those who crucified him weren't aware of the meaning of his death, they were trying to get rid of a problem not trying to perform a ritual sacrifice. Jesus died once for all, not a routine ritual that other humans or animals have 2 die
@Subher0 at the first council of trent, in the 300's there weren't a lot of books that were early dated that were left out, ex:gospels of Peter, Judas, & Thomas are not found until late 100's the stories in it contradict with the other gospels big time. It's not like there were a lot of books to chose from, & they picked the best ones. They picked the books that were circulated & had early written dates, & were consistent with the other books what books do you feel like they left out & should've
@Subher0 when someone brings up the Jesus Isis, myth connections they sound as ignorant as someone who thinks the Bible says the earth is flat neither are true. Could it be that Jesus is a fallen angel sure, but what's most likely, & everyone has to look at the evidence & make up their own mind, what evidence is there that Isis is real & Jesus is a fallen angel, we don't have any record of people dying claiming they saw the resurrected Isis, but you do have that with Jesus Christ
@miking193 But that's the thing... there IS no evidence your god is better than the next. So what is most likely? I don't know. How can we know? By examining the evidence... but where is the evidence for god? Nowhere... oh and btw "proof" and "evidence" are thesame thing. Oh and if we have no record of Isis resurecting then how do you suppose we know now? Oh right... because of written records...
Plus, when I write in a book that my great grandmother resurrected, would you believe it?
@Subher0 proof & evidence are not the same thing evidence - an outward sign : indication b : something that furnishes proof : testimony; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
proof - the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
@Subher0 evidence of God being better than all other gods is a objective claim. Who one prefers, I might like God better than Zeus because their is more validity to God, you might like no one because you prefer having the least evidence. Better or worse, someone worships Baal because they like his story the best, how would you determine who's the best other than opinion? There is evidence of God everywhere, he's the creator of the universe, oh look we happen to live in a universe
@Subher0 I guess I'd have to read the book first, generally no one rises from the dead. & My belief from the evidence is only Jesus Christ ever was resurrected & possibly the other people who rose from their graves and went up to heaven with him. Other than that no people don't typically rise from the dead that's what makes Jesus Christ special & the event divine intervention. Have you ever looked into the evidence for the resurrection, there is a lot? Which is more evidence for God
@miking193 No show me this evidence please and I will look into it.
So sometimes, you believe mere written words as unaquivocal proof of the truth of what is written? How do you think the world would be if everyone were to follow this kind of discerning fact from fantasy? I'd say the way the world was 500 years ago. Enjoy.
@Subher0 read the Case for the real Jesus, or watch some of William Lane Craig debates on the Resurrection of Jesus. You believe the word you just wrote are evidence that you are right, you can test the words of scripture, when it describes human nature as being depraved you can check that verses your experience, mine was yes this is true humans behave badly, & so do I. When it talks about the hope of the afterlife worth seeking, I agree a perfect world is worth seeking above all else
@miking193 Yes a perfect world may be worth seeking, but you'll have to do it in this life because it's improbable there is an afterlife, as improbable as the existance of unicorns etc.
@Subher0 i used to want an utopia, before I was believer but, now I'm much more fulfilled seeking the kingdom of God then I was trying to create or figure out how to make an utopia, it might seem improbable but if you seek God you'll find him if you put above all else
@miking193 Yes, it's a strong argument. Burn if you do not believe, heaven if you do. It's called a dichotomy, and a dichotomy always comes from an extreme position, and god is in such a position. Either you're wrong, or you're right. But as most things in life are, they are almost never either left or right, often there is a path in between. The only one that hasn't caught that appearantly, is god.
@Subher0 strong argument yes, but also an easy one it's not like a choice between two equally tasty looking ice cream sundaes, but chose the wrong one & you burn forever. the choice is simple & easy to distinguish seek God first & you go to Heaven, make something else first & you will in the lake of fire forever.
@miking193 I mean it's a strong argument in the sense that it's powerfull to people who fall into the trap of a false dichotomy. You've fallen in that trap. And it would be a dichotomy if god would be proven to exist... luckaly it's not... because god has no basis in evidence and what also your video fails to do, is provide evidence. You say atheists can't go around a tree... I think we should take this video literally and conclude it's you who indeed cannot go around the tree.
@Subher0 if you take it literally I went around the tree a couple of times, so that would be absurd. Again no one can prove God to you, that would rule out faith because you'd have perfect knowledge of God, & no faith would be required the best anyone has is evidence, I do believe if someone has the faith God will become known to them in one way or another, but not until they first have faith
@miking193 ... but Muslims and Hindu's say thesame thing, and note thesame experience. When I tell you that flying monkeys exist, but you won't see them until you have faith... would that sound absurd to you? I bet it does.
You're basicly saying thesame thing to me, except the context is different, but the evidence for both are equal in amount.
@Subher0 well it could be that yes if you believe in Allah or any of the Hindu gods you start to perceive more then your regular 5 senses, or you begin to notice the divine through your 5 senses, it might be Allah is real & Jesus & the Hindu Gods are the devil another supernatural being who deceives people who seek the supernatural & keeps them from the true Allah, what I believe is same story but Jesus Christ is truth & the others who deny him as the Christ are fallen angels or demons
@miking193 how to determine which one is real compare & contrast their holy books, the Hindu Vedas say the earth rest ontop of turtles backs, the BIble says the earth hangs on nothing, The Koran says Jesus never died on the cross only someone who looked like him the Gospels & the epistles tell another story these details can be examined to see which one sounds most believable, or which one is true, mabye they all are maybe they all aren't I believe in the Bible is from God the others are demonic
@miking193 Yes and the bible talks about talking snakes, whales eating a man and that man living inside that whale. It talks about the dead returning to life etc. What is the difference in all this? Not much really, it's all absurd. You just happen to believe in one particular belief, but you have no REAL method to distinguish wether yours is better over another.
Indeed what you have is your "belief" or "faith" a.k.a. "belief in something for which there is no proof" [webster dictionary]
@Subher0 well Webster differs from how Paul defines in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. How can someone hope for it if somehow it wasn't brought to them either spiritually audibly, it went through their conscience. We can compare & contrast the different Holy Books, the Koran says Jesus didn't die on the cross the New Testament says he did, the Hindu Vedas say the world rest on Turtles backs, in Job it says the earth hangs on nothing
@miking193 And what does it say about the molecular build up of the world? What does it say about how thunder discharges from the sky? It also says you should stone your child when it disobeys you... the bible says many things, we don't necessarily agree or disagree, but believing in god means agreeing with all of it. The Koran says scientifically accurate thigns aswell. The bible also tells us the earth is flat...
@Subher0 the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat this is a giant misconception, the Koran could have good knowledge of how the earth works because a fallen angle gave the content, who'd have a better knowledge of things then man at 600 AD. Jesus & the New Testament are clear there is no more stoning of anyone, the law is not required anymore, we can eat what we want when we want, we can worship when & how we want and live anyway as long as it glorifies God, & is loving to our neighbors
@miking193 Then why did Jesus say that not an iota of the laws would be changed? He also says god is always thesame... so god killed and tortured people in the old testament... are you still defending the claim that he is loving? What you're saying is that also the ten commandmends do no longer apply... be consistent please.
@Subher0 when he said he is the same he is, he is still God, & we will still be judged based on the ten commandments. I will fail & so will everyone else. Those who by faith accept Jesus Christ as the atonement of their sins they will be saved from going to the lake of fire. They have liberty in Christ & should use that liberty to honor God & serve their fellow brothers & sisters, I feed you lobster, or pork as long as you aren't allergic.
@miking193 I quote "the law is not required anymore", that's what you said, now you say the law, specificly the ten commandments, SHOULD be followed... make up your mind you're contradicting yourself. He is still god and god still thinks we should stone adulterers, because god doesn't change [so neither does his attitude towards actions good or bad] and ALSO "not an iota of the law will be changed" so there. Either the old testament is no longer applicable, along with the commandments, or it is.
@Subher0 You have a misunderstanding of The Law and the Ten Commandments. The Law is the 613 regulations that the Jews had to follow up until Christ. The Ten Commandments are ten different things, and the only one that has a variation is the Sabbath, you can take a Sabbath whenever you want as long as it is to the Lord.
@miking193 I'm not talking about the content of the law, I'm talking about wether we should follow the law or not. Stop avoiding the issue. Either the old law does apply, or it doesn't. If you dismiss the old testament, then come to terms with the fact that the ten commandments, which are part of the law, are also dismissed. If you accept the ten commandments, you should also accept the other laws. Choosing only what you desire is cherry picking.
@Subher0 have ever read the New Testament? Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath, Paul wrote it's ok to worship when we want how we want as long as it's to God. The law & the 10 commadments are not one in the same. The law does not apply to us because we have liberty in Christ to use that liberty to help one another & glorify God. Paul is clear we are not under the law any more the law was the school master to show us we can't on our own fulfill the law, that we need a savior, which has come
@Subher0 if you'd like we did a four part video series on the law called Believer's Freedom 1-4. Explaining through scripture why the law no longer applies
@miking193 Ok fine, maybe the law does not apply, but the ten commandments are a part of the law, saying they are not, is cherry picking... you want to exempt what you want to exempt. Wanting it doesn't change the fact that it is still part of the old testament law.
@Subher0 no the 613 laws for the Jews while they lived before the Messiah are separate from the 10 commandements. It's not cherry picking it's what Jesus, Peter, & Paul all wrote about
@Subher0 God lets everyone die, whether it's Old Testament or New Testament whether is war or cancer God lets everyone die, old or young, this isn't torture, some will go live with him forever in paradise, some will be with him in the lake of fire, we get to pick, he made us with the ability to pick
@miking193 Ugh. So torturing or raping someone before he dies, is allowed because GOD does it? Pretty hypocritical, is it not? Wether or not he promises me paradise afterwards, is irrelevant. A loving god would NEVER allow his "children" to be tortured under ANY circumstance. Else you LOSE the case of a loving god. It's very simple, please understand, use your mind.
@Subher0 Your point is that a loving God would never let anything bad happen to His children in this life, which is a speck of dust compared to eternity, right? When we are persecuted in this life, it builds up heavenly treasure for eternity. When Jesus came to earth, He suffered and died even though He was innocent. He took on all of our sins, and received much heavenly treasure for His sufferings.
@miking193 That is the lamest excuse I've ever heard in my life. "You'll get pie if I'm done slapping you, and the harder I slap you, the bigger piece of pie you'll get, isn't that great?"... Uhm no... it's not.
@Subher0 why is that lame to you, those who are faithful to God, & loving & forgiving to others & stay faithful even during tribulation get rewarded for enduring
@miking193 But you're still not coming to terms with the fact that no loving creature would do whatever he does, trying to get you to believe. That's maniacal, egocentric, it's the worst form of manipulation around. You wouldn't tolerate a human being doing all the things your god does. You just accept it from your "god" because he's "your god" not because he's supposedly more moral than any of us.
@Subher0 I wasn't A Christian till I was 21, I was into researching & practicing other faiths or lack their of, I did not particularly like the idea of being submissive to God, I wanted to be God & have nature submit to my will. When found out God loved me even though I was jerk, & obeying him I'd be more loving to others not just fulfilling my wants, but communing with God & helping others it was so much more beautiful then my single minded selfishness. God is love, he's not mean he is merciful
@miking193 But you were still religiously inclined, though not a Christian. I've never been religious so I can't say how it feels to be religious. There are deep believing Christians who are now atheist, who had thesame "experiences" as you did, they had thesame thoughts like you, yet they saw their belief was undefendable. That's what you're doing now. You're defending something that cannot be defended, and the way to do that is to be ignorant of alot things we know about this world.
@Subher0 I know dawkins & hitchens & harris make small fortunes writing how mean the God of the Oldtest is, & the idea of eternal punishment is awful. This is not an accurate picture of God, he didn't kill anyone who didn't rebel & refuse his love, he gives everyone the chance to repent of their sins, but most people won't, they blame God for being made that way or for punishing them, we have the option to have a new mind & to not live that way or desire sin, but to desire the kingdom of Heaven
@miking193 "he didn't kill anyone who didn't rebel & refuse his love" so it's ok to kill someone, as long as god does it or allows it in certain circumstances? Can you actually believe what you are saying? Is that what you believe? Don't you understand a god who kills, is a-moral, for WHATEVER reason? [and not loving him back isn't even a big reason]. Listen to your own words, how you describe your own god. You're contradicting yourself in 5 minutes. You say god is love, then you say god kills..
@Subher0 not the same, God exist whether or not you believe in him. A creator of the universe that is outside of space & time that what we call physical matter is evident in that the universe exist & was created and a being or a mind that made the universe that is outside of it makes more sense then something came from nothing
@miking193 No it is not. You're talking about misconceptions, science never said something came from nothing. Well depending on interpretations the bible may or may not say the earth is flat. It indeed does not say that directly, though it does say much to assume it. What can not be mis interpreted though is that it says the earth is "fixed" or "unmovable", that it DOES say. Talking further about something coming from nothing: god supposedly just "is there" that makes no sense either.
@Subher0 the difference between God & the universe is the universe began at the Big Bang, time space & matter all began at this instance. If God created the universe he is not limited to it's what we call physical boundaries, he existed before it, & outside of it. God doesn't need a physical explanation or for us to understand how he was created he is eternal, God cannot be explained by natural events, materials or causes, because if he is, he is supernatural or else he doesn't exist
@miking193 Yes, the universe AS WE KNOW it began with the big bang. We simply do not know what came before it. No scientist ever said the big bang came from "nothing". SOmething that is outside of this limiting boundary of space is outside of our own existance, because we are INSIDE that limiting boundary. If there is a world outside this physical one, and it can interact with this world, that interaction is measurable. Measure that interaction, then come back.
@Subher0 We made a video that addresses this point called Why Can't We Catch an All-Powerful, All-knowing God like a Butterfly? To summarize, if God is all-powerful and All-knowing and He doesn't want to be found by your measurements, He can evade them. If the Bible is true, then it must be true that the Devil has deceived most of the world.
@miking193 Why on earth would god not want to be caught by our measurement? It's the most counter-productive thing he could do. If he was willing to show himself openly in the past, he should be willing now [god never changes]. Again you'd need to determine wether the bible is true, and if the devil can deceive us, god lets us, or is god less powerfull than the devil?
@Subher0 God wants those by the evidence given (creation, other believers, scripture their own conscience etc) to go this God is worth seeking above all else, I realize I'm a sinner & I'd like to live in world where there was no sin, only God can do this. God appeared to those in the Old Testament & New to people who had already made their decision to believe on him
@miking193 well then god is stupid, and it's clearly not working because the bigger part of the world does not accept the evidence he has given. And then when he continues saying he wants everybody to end up in heaven, he's contradicting it with his own actions. BTW Creation is obviously not evident since life clearly evolved from previous organisms, like humans who share a common ancestor with other modern apes.
@Subher0 Jesus said the road was narrow, so to have few amount of people who really believe is not surprising but part of testimony that what Jesus said is true. If everyone believed & acted Christ like, Jesus would been a false prophet & predicted wrong.
@miking193 Well there were other "prophets" who had thesame characteristics and circumstances in birth. It's easy to say "they were fallen angels" if you say something, you have to back up what you say. If I would tell you a flying monkey who shoots fire out of its eyes is waiting for you outside on a tree, you'd say I'm a kookoo for cocopuffs, because I can't show you and other than my word you have nothing. Now change "flying monkey" with "god" and you know my stance on the matter.
@miking193 And you're saying that "sharing the gospel" is proof he exists? So if muslims would say that sharing the Koran is proof of Allah's existance... you'd be forced to accept it when they would share it with you, as you see this as a form of viable evidence. I hope you see the fallacy in that logic with this tiny example.
@Subher0 sharing the Gospel is part, of the evidence, no I have talked to Muslims & have not converted, don't get confused with evidence & proof. No where did I share is sharing the gospel the only evidence.
@newclarence First will you admit you were wrong about your previous comment being inaccurate? Anyway even if you don't here's the chapter & verse Zechariah 11:12 This verse is talking about the value of the Messiah sold by his disciple to those who had been appointed by the Lord to fulfill what was recorded in the scriptures The prophet Zechariah was chosen by God to be one of prophets to reveal the truth to the Old Testament believers concerning both the first and second coming of the Messiah
@miking193 I read Zach 11:12-13. I read a story about a guy who got paid 30 pieces of silver and claims that god told him to give it to a potter. This is a prophecy? I see nothing about Jesus. Mathew certainly knew the story. Maybe he just put it in to fulfill the prophecy. None of the other gospels mention this. Finally, so what? Maybe the old prophets possessed some magical ability to read the future. Crazy as that is, it still is not evidence of god or the divinity of Jesus.
@newclarence you left out major portions of the story to fit your "nonsense view" of coarse if you say all that is in Zach 11 is a story about a guy giving a potter 30 pieces of silver it looks totally unrelated, but if you fill in the rest of the chapter about the Lord breaking his staff & the value was for 30 pieces of silver, with those details included the the relationship Jesus being the staff the Lord breaks & it was valued at 30 pieces of silver the prophecy comes into picture
@newclarence I'm not sure what you know about prophecy but in the scriptures it doesn't always say ***pay attention this is specific prophecy about such & such, this is what it means, this is what to exactly expect, & here's exactly what the metaphor about the future is in plain English Words of prophecies are there but there aren't as spelled out as saying the Eagles will Superbowl 50, by 50 points They're sandwiched into verses that have to be discerned by the holy spirit for those who seek
@newclarence prophets had magical abilities to see into the future, how did they get such ability. Why did they all use that ability to talk about Jesus Christ, why didn't some use it to predict Buddah, or to invest in Microsoft? Jesus Christ fulfilled every single of the over 300 prophecies in first coming of the messiah, to be an atonement for the peoples sins, to be born in Bethlehem to live before the destruction the 2nd temple, etc.the accuracy of the prophecies to show evidence he is God
I hope you're talking about yourself being close minded...
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 are you talking to me, Because if you were, I was saying skeptics about God are closed minded
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes I was talking about you. Actually reading what you said... saying it out loud sounds so unreal. So far from the truth.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 well it probably sounds unreal because you have a depraved mind, if you deny God
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes ofcourse. That's absolutely logical. Since it's also a depraved mind who doesn't believe in unicorns, leprechauns or allah. Depraved minds don't believe in Vishnu or Xenu... you know the alien from Scientology. Thor, Votan, Mithras, Isis, Zeus, Hera and Zoroaster, the Jade Emperor and not believing in all these gods is because of our depraved mind.
So I guess we are all depraved minds in the end.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 you pretty much right most people are under a strong delusion whether they believe in Allah, Zeus Vishnu, or Xenu probably some of the same fallen angels showing themselves differently to different cultures. Or if you believe in no God, or think you serve Christ but your life here is more important to you then following him to the kingdom of heaven you probably under a strong delusion
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But the matter where I have a problem with is that there is no real distinction to be made between them, and they have one big thing in common, the matter that they all lack the evidence for their existance. Jezus and Isis, e.g., are really thesame person. They have thesame attributes and similar circumstances in experience in birth, life and death. But staggers me is how you can say Jezus is the real god, and Isis the fallen angel. Why can't it be the other way around?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Isis Jesus myth has been around for a hundred years & was discreditited 100 years ago, watch a video on the Jesus Myth or a debate about, there are several good books that detail how the Jesus Myth is shoty research, or outright lie. Many of the supposed similarities don't apply Jesus probably wasn't born on Dec 25, the Catholics came up with stuff like this to help the transition over from paganism,
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Well I took Isis as one example but in fact there are many gods in ancient history that share alot of the circumstance jesus was born in, lived and died. Including resurection and returning after 3 days etc. born of a virgin blah blah blah and so on and so on. There is truth behind this matter and I can't say that indeed paganism had something to do with it... because the bible contains many pagan ideas and ways of dealing with things... blood sacrifice ring a bell?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 sure there a lot common, even in alot of the ritual done in churches today is mostly pagan, the steeple, one guy speaks at a pulpit this this is all pagan.The robes the priest where, the funny hats. There's a good book called Pagan Christianity. The key is who copied whom? Did the Jews & Christians copy pagan religions or vice versa or is their a mixture. The key to Christianty are original, Jesus being the messiah dying for the worlds sins is unique,
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 If you research the Jesus myth is he a combo of these other pagan dieties, the 12 apostles, Mother Mary father Joesph, etc.. You find out the first one written to have these attributes is Jesus, & the pagans copied after the spread of Christianty, don't trust me, do the research it's out there, however you can find lots of pagan rituals used in most modern churches which have become apostate, going to church isn't even in the Bible, it says the people are the church, not a building
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 There are many more things that were made about Jesus in that time that are NOT in the bible today because the early church picked and chose what was to be in the bible, the first biblical canon to be installed and FOUR MORE TO COME over the following 2000 years... so the bible you read has been edited 5 times since all the texts were written... and most of them were left out. You can't even be sure your bible is the word of god, let alone the fact if there is a god.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Not a bad point, we have read most of the books taken out Enoch, Tobit, Jasher, I think it was a mistake to take them out, I also believe that certain verses or chapter such as Romans 13 were doctored by King James to make the people more submissive to the king, instead of the holy spirit. Where in the Greek words for angels or powers (diving beings) have been watered down to todays translations say cops & judges. Still with the holy spirit God left a way to help us understand the word
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 So you think that reading a doctored bible is fine by a god, that will punish you with eternal punishment for a simple a thing as "looking to another women with lust"?
I don't know, these questions are very simple and you should start asking yourself some more to see wether your belief is really justified. I don't know, do you want the truth or do you want what's comfortable? That's the first question you should ask. Then stop thinking about "god" being equivalent to "truth".
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 oh please being a Christian has nothing to do with being comfortable, it promises who ever lives for Jesus will be persecuted & that if you are like Jesus the world will hate you like it hated him, because the world loves darkness & he exposes it. Jesus said the road is narrow & few are on it & there'd be many fakes & false teachers, Jesus doesn't want any of us to perish, people chose to reject God or put him first, & so bring on their own choice or eternal seperation from God
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 How would you CHOOSE to reject something that will put you in ETERNAL TORTURE for it. We don't BELIEVE god exists OR hell OR heaven, it's not a CHOICE, it's a LOGICAL consequence of the available evidence[= zero].
No it's just a simple question, you feel safe and secure as a Christian, and the real world out there is pretty scary I agree. But would you be able to let Christianity go if you'd come to realise your faith makes no sense in many ways?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 trust me I get more persecution for being a Christian then when i wasn't. Not until I was 21 was I a believer, my family doesn't want to hear about, they're mostly Catholic or skeptical, I have lost many of friends, who don't want to be around me as a Christian, I get called a dummy all day long on the computer, & I praise God for it, because this is what he said would happen, & it let's me know I am on the right path & I will get rewarded for the persecution it harder for as a believer
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes, and thesame will happen if you're in a Christian community, with "good" Christians just like yourself and turn atheist. Did god say that would happen too? He doesn't say actually to hate apostates, he says they deserve to die. I haven't called you a dummy, but dumb answers can sometimes come from smart people. And I know the origin of those answers are not stupidity, but the emotional dependancy on the religion, and the incapability of seeing the flaws in it.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Jesus said to love my enemies, and to feed, clothe shelter them. He'll deal people when the die, but Christians are called to love everybody, & treat them they way they'd want to be treated no matter what. I don't care what you call me, I want you to know God, my life would be emotionally a lot easier if I didn't believe all this, I have lost countless friends & have lost lots of ties with my family over are beliefs & how we act them out, we don't do this because it's emotionally easier
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Read again what i said. I didn't say you became a Christian to lead an emotional easy life... I said you were emotionally dependant on your religion now which makes it hard for you to let go even though it has many flaws.
And maybe Jesus tells you to love everybody, but he sure doesn't love apostates himself.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 he would love them if they'r turn & repent, he loved them when he created them but is upset that they have repeatedly rejected him, I disagree I don't know of any flaws, & I have heard all the popular claims of the flaws, but I disagree with them, if I thought it was flawed why would stay in harder belief, when my life would be a lot easier to go with the flow & reject Jesus Christ, or not take it seriously
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 no person is going to the lake of fire for looking at one woman with lust, it'll be years of bad choices, & unrepentance. We can repent & be saved but most choice not to, they'd rather go with the comfort here, then the promises of eternal life. I have no problem answering questions from skeptics, or being questioned I have the truth I have nothing to hide, everyone has a conscience one of the ways God speaks to us, he will teach you the scriptures himself, you don't need another man
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Well if I'd have some evidence of an eternal afterlife I would be more than happy to live this life towards that. But I see an eternal life in itself as a punishment, but that aside.
It's not that I "choose" not to be "saved" you think I make a choice "hmm I go with god or I don't" and that I consciously make the choice "no god". This is a common misunderstanding. How can you choose between something that we know is real, and what we don't know is real?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Faith, I have not seen God in person, & then decided to follow him, or got a free pass up to the kingdom of heaven for the weekend to check it out, it's all on faith. I have as much evidence as you, with that evidence I go this is worth hoping for If you search there is tons of evidence not just in books, or videos, but God is everywhere in nature in love, in emotions in science labs God is eveywhere & there's no limit to how to find Christ if you seek him above all else you'll find him
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 That is the position I'm standing in. But you're already certain of your truth then how would you ever be able to change your mind if you "know" you're certain? You must admit there is a chance you're wrong and it's possible in this world to be WRONG about something. I can't prove there is NO god but you can't prove there IS a god. Saying otherwise is WRONG, it's a lie. You may think you have evidence, but have you ever really thought about IF it ACTUALLY is?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 sure i think about it, that i could be wrong that I'm in the wrong religion or the wrong sect of Christianty or that there is no God. I have gone from almost no belief to the occult New age, to know being a Christian I have changed my mind several times. However I have never believed in anything else the way I believe In Jesus Christ now, & the doubt get less & less when I have a relationship with God & see his influence on my life, proof no, that's why it's called faith
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 And the key point here is you need to break free from that fear you have, or that deep desire you have to go to heaven, and take a neutral standpoint and say "ok, what have I got to work with". In case of a religion, all you have to work with is the book, writings altered and changed over the years, poorly translated etc. from a HIGH possibility of human authorship [without divine intervention] and things in the bible contradicting the known world and often itself.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 decent points up to here, I don't fear anything anymore but eternal judgment, before I was afraid of a lot more, losing my hair, what others thought of me, how many girls liked me, was I in shape enough, bills, etc. now all that has vanished I'm in the best relationship of my life, & my wife & i put God first, are biggest concern is helping each other get closer to God, not fitting in a some Church, the people are the church not the building.
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 there is more evidence then the book first lets talk about the book, the translations we have today match the original Greek text up to 99% the 1 & in question doesn't deal with doctrinal issues so the book is very well traslated except for parts in the new testament about the need to obey civil govenrments or you'll go to hell that was put in by King James to subdue the English & it makes no sense why would not listening to Hitler cause you to go to hell? other than that, its preserved
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 So it comes down to the fact you only have that book to go by. That book has a high probability of being wrong in itself, like standard.
You've got the fact of HIGH probability of human authorship and you've got the errors creeped in over the years, AND you have the contradictions with the known world and contradictions between different verses AND contradicting modern Christians about the nature of god [god = love while in the bible he commits murder etc.]
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 take near death experiences you have people who are clincally dead, no heart rate, no electrical activity in the brain, no electrical activity equals no sending signals in the brain, & many of this people who were dead, rose up over their bodies & saw people around the hall recited conversations in other rooms etc, & when they came to, they reported this to the nurses or doctors, & what is eerie is they saw things if even alive they wouldn't been able to at their vantage point
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 with near death experiences like that, to me it shows a difference between the physical body & the spirit & something living past the body no longer functions. You might laugh at this, but in the Bible the people God has the Jews kill very likely were half breeds placed their by the devil & fallen angels, nephilim half human half fallen angels, it's why they were so tall. God hates genetic spilicing because it goes against his natural order, that's why he had them killed.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Oh and according to the bible, these people are sinners, and sinners go to hell. With god it IS black or white. I suggest again you read up on your bible.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 thanks for the suggestion, never a bad thing to read it more. You are right it's black or white, we're all sinners, only those who accept Jesus Christ as their sin offering, their pass over, the messian, will God pass over them & not see them as sinners but as his children everyone else is headed for the lake of fire, & it scares me for others I don't want anyone to go there that's why we're on here to warn people the best we can, & on the streets in our life
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Which is in itself a moral construct devoid of any common sense, and immoral in itself. You don't put the child in jail for the crime his father comitted. In no way, sense, shape or form is that a morally accepted proposition, but then again, your god is not moral. The fact you go out on the street harassing people with a fairy tale is one of the reasons why religion is so polarised. You come to us as if you know it all, where it began and where it will end, contrairy to the evidence.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 the child doesn't have to pay, Jesus Christ paid for the mistake he took the tab for everyone even though he was innocent, all you have to do is believe on him, not bail yourself out or climb a mountain, the choice is your's whether you will go to prison or take his free gift out of it, & onto eternal life in heaven. Yes you didn't commit the original sin, but neither do you have to pay for it, both things were done without you, thus being fair.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But it still lacks common sense. The child is still guilty for a crime his father comitted by default. So god first says you are guilty, BUT he created a loophole for you, by sacrificing himself to himself, all you have to do is believe in that sacrifice, and he did it knowing it all in advance it would happen this way. This is not fair. He creates the condition, and then he creates the loophole out of it, demanding worship in the process.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 yes man after Adam & Eve didn't deserve the sin nature they are born with, they didn't commit the crime themselves, but neither do they have to pay their bail out, God did it for them so it's just, that they don't have to earn their way out,
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Again it's an absurdity to sacrifice yourself to yourself for a sin you allowed to commit and knew that was going to happen, and then loophole with a blood sacrifice. It's not one way "to look at it" that's just what it is, call a cat a cat.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 yes he provides the way out, why does this upset you, why is God being the savior & doing the work for us bother you? You allowed the sin because he didn't make us robots but gave us free choice, if you don't like free will maybe you like Lucifer because he's all about having you follow him without a choice take the mark of the beast or die
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 You're completely missing the point. It does not bother me, it stupifies me how he set up the system. First he creates a world, which after Adam he knew was going to be born in sin [so yes, he created that too] and then he creates his own loophole in the form of a BLOOD sacrifice. And AGAIN god does NOT allow free choice because ALL is PRE DETERMINED. Please read because you talk about robots you sure sound like one.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Adam was born with sin, after he ate from the apple Satan tricked him into eating sin entered into the world, by man rebeling against God & following the devil instead. If Adam never ate of the apple Cain could have Abel could have down to me or you, the problem was the devil who God knew had rebeled because man was given dominion not him, & he didn't like free will, I read the first book of Adam & Eve, anyway God gives man a chance to be forgiven Christ but not the angels
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 look up Molonism it explains about free choice & predestanation
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes and it is fallacious, I looked it up. It's still god interfering with free will, because even though it seems you make choice B between option A and B, god has still put you in the position where you would choose B. Now total free will would be "I don't know what he's going to choose", until the choice has been made, rendering god non omniscient. If god knew what he was going to choose, then that was god's will, and he put you in that position, according to Molinism.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 thank you for looking it up, most people don't, it sounds like you care enough about this subject to at least new things up. I don't think it's fallacious because God knows what we will chose given the chance, he didn't create us wound up predetermined to chose A or B he gave us all the free will, but some will chose B on their own, God didn't wind the up to chose B they chose it, I guess for them it be better if he never created them, if B is to reject him
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Maybe indeed, but then still god isn't off the hook. Because if there is so called free will given by god, there are many other problems with it. Since free will is the choice between two or more things, then I would, in heaven, not be able to choose between doing good or evil. That means heaven has no free will. In this way god allows evil done on earth through the free will of mankind, knowing that some people would choose the bad alternative.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 yes I guess in the afterlife there are restrictions we get to chose which place we want to live in now. A place where evil is restricted such as in Heaven or a place where love & pleasure is restricted such as the lake of fire. To me it seems easy to want to live in world where evil is banished I don't like the evil here not in myself or in others, I can't wait to see it banned, but I know only God can do that
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But when you can't do evil in heaven, then your free will is restricted... so god allows evil into this world by giving us free choice, that means that either free will is possible without evil existing, meaning that god doesn't really love us while we're on earth, or that free will isn't really a "gift" as explained. Either way god is not the loving entity you claim it to be. You can twist yourself into believing it, but it doesn't make it less true.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Yes we can pick to live in a world where there is no evil, where we can't choice evil because it will be gone, that's in heaven. We pick to live there now, so I am using my freewill to say I'd want to live there, & see the evil in me banish, as long as evil in general be banished that's worth dying for, that's better than any possibility or life I could have here an eternity of love & no evil
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Gone? But if I decide to attack someone in the afterlife, let's say someone who killed a person dear to me...
The question was not "can this world be without evil" .. I made the statement that A) Can we commit evil acts in heaven or not? [like the example above] If not, then your free will is restricted unless you say that god created free will so that it is possible to have it without evil, then why did he create free will on earth WITH evil? Because god is not good...
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 God has given us the choice to be with Him and live righteously or to be with Satan and live apart from Him. We choose to be with God or without Him. Once we've chosen God, we've chosen to abstain from evil. At judgment, the sin nature is tossed into the Lake of Fire, we have chosen an eternity with our Heavenly Father and to be one of His, not a spawn of Satan. It's not a hard choice, but God gives us free will to choose.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 No you're again making this into a false dichotomy. I did not choose to "not believe" in god I just don't because I haven't been convinced there is one. Why would one retain from evil if all you ever have to do is believe in Jesus? I can kill someone and end up in heaven, but I could only lie and end up in hell. This isn't righteous judgement, this is a twisted psychological mindgame. You can fling "it's not a hard choice" at me as much as you want, it remains a sick choice...
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 you said "I just don't because I haven't been convinced there is one." that is your decision & why you chose that way, can you see you made the choice not to believe in God or seek above all else, & your reason is because you're not convinced there is a God. All sin is evil before God. We have all sinned great & small. The only ones who have their sins forgiven & forgotten are those who accept Jesus Christ & then obey him
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 you raised a good point some people who call themselves Christians say they can sin all they want because the believe in Jesus, they could murder someone & it be ok, but if you're atheist & you lie well you going to the lake of fire. This not true, Jesus said many would say to him Lord Lord & he say "away from me I never knew you" N they go to the lake of fire, this might even be me. If one believes on Jesus Christ their works will display it, they'll be loving self sacrificing
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 So now it's works I thought the centerpiece of Christianity is that you don't have to do works all you have to do is believe in god or jesus or whatever. The onyl thign that doesn't get you forgiveness is blaspheming the "holy ghost". So what you're saying is contradicting the bible again. This conversation is also evident of how multi-interpretable the bible is. If god wanted his perfect word to be understood, the why does everybody understand it differently?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 only Dawkins think the likelihood is low, to have a creator over creation makes more sense, then now matter how far back, (matter time space) created themselves. God speaks to all of us through the conscience. God is spirit in our minds we can't see God physically but everyone one of us has thoughts that are invisible to others but this I believe is God & demons are. The good thoughts God the bad ones demons
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 First off, you believe these thoughts is god. We can monitor brain activity, alot of it are chemicals, so there is a physical nature to thoughts. You say your thoughts are god, prove it. And again, how do you know the good thoughts is your god? How do you know it's not a bad entity claiming to be god, and you believe him? How do you know that what you call "devil" or "demon" isn't actually the good guy? You don't, because you can't prove any of it, even their existance.
Subher0 1 year ago
@miking193 No that's not a choice. You can set up a line saying "alright this would convince me" and with religion that line hasn't been crossed, by far. I set up the terms for me to be convinced so it's not a choice it's a matter of how much can you give me that shows the likelihood of there being a god is high. ATM the likelihood is very low. You can deny it and say you have faith, but the likelihood of there being a god is as high as there being leprechauns.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 only Dawkins think the likelihood is low, to have a creator over creation makes more sense, then now matter how far back, (matter time space) created themselves. God speaks to all of us through the conscience. God is spirit in our minds we can't see God physically but everyone one of us has thoughts that are invisible to others but this I believe is God & demons are. The good thoughts God the bad ones demons
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 bad statement I made I know Dawkins isn't the only but he popularized this quote
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Well he doesn't think it's low, it just IS low. This is not "my opinion" this is just the truth. First off if there is "creation" then there is a "creator" that's true, but we are not "creation" in the sense that you mean it. We evolved my friend, and god or no god, we still evolved. Us evolving is a FACT, the Theory of Evolution is the knowledge we have gained about how the FACT of evolution happens.
Subher0 1 year ago
@miking193 Your father comitted a crime, a crime which I knew would happen and would condemn all his offspring henceforth... I loved your father VERY much and so will I love his offspring, but I let him commit the crime anyway... I will instead of preventing him from walking in a pit and condemning everybody henceforth, sacrifice a human being who is me incarnate, to myself and believing in him will relieve you of your father's crime.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 yes that is one way to look at it, but if that were the case God would never given us sentient beings the free choice to love him back, he loves us, but wanted to give us the choice to love him back, & most will not, but without the choice he'd be tyrant forcing us to love him with out a choice, given the alternitive option the lake of fire sucks, it is still a choice, he made the choice very easy him or lake of fire
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 One way to look at it? No that's just what it is. And he does not give us a choice, because he knows everything in advance, that nullifies your free choice because everything is pre determined.
And he made that lake of fire, so it's still your father telling you "either you love me, or you get tortured". Those are the words of a tyrant. I would not torture my kids because they don't love me back. Stop calling your god moral, he's not.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 It's an easy choice to love God back & not go to the lake of fire, why do you have pretend that it's so hard or harsh. You don't have to climb a mountain or slay a dragon, or cure cancer just have to love God back, God gave us freewill, he might be aware of our choices because he's outside of time but he still gives us the choice, look molonism it explains how God can give us free will really well, you don't have to pick the lake of fire, just seek God above all else
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 You're spinning this into like it is a choice. Remember that I do not believe god exists. You're asking me to love a negative. Now for the sake of argument, IF god would exist as described in the bible, I STILL would not love him, for I find myself more moral than the god in the bible, and so are you.
Plus you're switching again from 'it's absurd to demand your child to love you back, else you get tortured' into 'but it's not hard...' NO stick to the issue. Is it absurd or is it not?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 if you want to call absurd fine it's an absurdly easy choice love God, have a blissful eternity, that he only has good things planned for those who love him, or be an idiot & chose to not love God back & go to get tortured forever, it is a choice we get to chose, even if you think it's dumb that's your choice, even if you think no Gods exist fine that's your choice, ps I'm not very moral on my own I was a very selfish prick
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 If I want to "call it absurd"? No it IS absurd... can you please think for yourself for a second? Stop trying to say what you "should" believe and try to think about this rationally... "I set my child in the world and call it a sinner after he eats an apple that I created [and that my child got tricked by a lesser creature, with me knowing it would happen] but IT'S O.K. because I will bloodily sacrifice my son, myself in the flesh, so that sin would go away. Worship me." errrmmm
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 absurd is a subjective term it seems we are not going to agree on whether or not this absurd or not. If I'm not thinking for myself who's telling me what to type over my shoulder? He put Adam there but Adam is man not his blood son, like if you or I have a child, yes the devil is there to tempt us, but it so we can have a choice to love God back, or rebel & follow the devil & never repent & turn back to God who paid the way for our debts, all he wants is for us to love him back
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 I can agree that it can be subjective. Let me pose it in a different way then. Would you do it that way? It is not consistent with the view Christians put out of god, to be mild. And as soon as we agree on that, you have an actual objection to god, so ofcourse you're not going to agree, your hands are "emotionally tied" as you might say, and must disagree.
No you're typing it. I'm just referring to the fact you fell into the trap of "whatever the pastor tells me is correct".
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 I don't have a pastor & I don't go to church both I believe are common misuses of the scriptures, so no pastor is giving me these ideas. Would I sacrifice myself to myself to forgive my children? We're made in the image of God but while human alive on earth we're different type of being still, we're not received glorified body yet. I can understand why God did it that way, he loves us, & wants us to love him back, which is better then we're forced into it, we can chose not to love him
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 given then the option is the lake of fire a bad alternate choice. Choosing to love God is not him being an evil dictator. If he is who he says he is then he is a loving father who only wants the best for us, & wants us to love him back freely, he gave us life he created us, & he wants to be in a eternal loving relationship with us. This sounds great.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 So you're saying that it's a fair choice: either you love and go to heaven or either you don't and I TORTURE you forever. How many times do I need to repeat that before you understand that are not words of a loving father...
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 5 more and I'll get it. I'm not going to agree with you, I think it's an easy choice he loves & has good things planned for us, but if we want we can dismiss his love & his intended plans, & choice to suffer. The one choice is so preferable to the other
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Well that's the "open mindedness" I've come to expect of religious people. It's pretty sad.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 You don't need to constantly change your mind in order for it to be open. We both were secular / agnostic / brought up Roman Catholic and went to public school. It wasn't until we were 19 / 21 that we accepted Jesus Christ and gave our lives to Him. We're open to talking to atheists, satanists, or other faiths. In our years of walking with Christ, we've not heard anything to leave Him for. Jesus is the Truth, The Way and the Life.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 The thing is, you don't want to hear. And what can be shown by evidence, you just dismiss as evil, or you remain willingly or unwillingly ignorant of it. You should separate Jesus and truth, and decide from that point on if wether what you believe in honest judgement is really true. You're just incapable of doing that.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 don't want to hear what? If I was afraid of evidence I wouldn't be hear talking with all this non believers, I'd keep my faith to myself & avoid discussing it & having it challenged, in the same I think you are confident about your unbelief. There is no separating Jesus from the truth he is the truth the way & the life.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Can you choose to not love him when you're in heaven?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 no thats why we are here to decide that now. By what we know of him, or the hope of great he is, how great it be to be with him forever, we'd give up everything else to seek him
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 We can no longer make the decision, the decision is already made, and god knows it in advance. Why pray if it's already pre-determined?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 We made two videos on prayer you might want to check out - they're not Biblical, we don't use scripture. Praying shows that we love God and we want to have a relationship with Him. And lots of prayer is for repenting of our sins, and how we know what God's will is so we can do it, so that we will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. By not praying, we're saying we reject God because we don't want to talk to Him. Jesus was part of God and yet He still prayed. It's a way we talk to God.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Oh and has god ever talked back to you? If you ask for something from god, has it ever come true?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 yup today, My dog ran off when we cleaning out the garage we spen an hour in the rain in the wood looking for her, I repented of some sin, ironically it was of unbelief & questing God a lot lately & boom as was repenting of it, & confessing it to Nichole the dog showed up before I finished saying it, there's more to the story tha's the summary, God doesn't always answer me by showing himself & shaking my hand but more of incidents like that.
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 Those who pray are those who choose to be with God, it's one of the signs of those who want a relationship with God. If you don't pray, it shows you don't want a relationship with God. It's one of those free will choices that decides who loves God and who doesn't. Those who repent to God and try to hear His guidance are those who love God. It's the essence of those who seek God above all else.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But then why would you ask for things to happen? If it was only a way for chit chatting with god, fine, but there is no reason to ask god for something that can no longer be changed.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 I don't ask God to help me with things other then put the desire for you in me, because on my own, I won't desire God, I can be just as skeptical about this as anybody, I need God to put the faith in me. The things I ask for is for him to show me what he wants me to do, not for the quick check out lane or trite things that my flesh wants, but for me to have the desires he wants, & thus none of it trite if it's walking in his will
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But the "desire for me" is something you can't say god puts in you it could be all coming from yourself. "His will" is again also something you can clearly have on your own. You may pray for him to work his will through you, but in the end it can still be just all you, and not something supernatural.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 if that;s the way you look at, I can't twist your arm into looking at as I do. In that God communicates through are conscience all day long, when I do something in will with the what God is urging me to do then, I'm not doing chores on my own, but God is inspiring me as I work. If I want say something rude to someone, but my conscience is saying no, be merciful & obey that, then I feel overwhelmed with love & like I'm following God, when I'm rude which I can be I'm just a plain jerk
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 You're saying "that's the way I look at it". You know there IS something as "being wrong", and "being right". How you look at it, is just the wrong way of looking at it. The way to approach claims of the supernatural, you need a neutral standpoint. Understand that we already know much about how the world works. Within that world that we understand, is it possible this type of supernatural being exists? Your god does not meet the criteria.
Subher0 1 year ago
@miking193 And he calls all of humanity "his children" ofcourse he made Adam "in his own image" are you now saying he did not love him? At least "as if" he was his own child? When I adopt a child, I'm not his biological father, but I sure damn will raise that child as if it were my own. Bad excuse.
If that's all he wants, that's fine. But a good father would NEVER under ANY circumstance torture his child, wether it's his own flesh like jesus [he tortured him too btw] or not.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 We made in his image but while alive on earth we do not have his complete divine capacity, we'll still only be human a little lower then the angels, until we get our resurrected bodies. God doesn't want to torture anyone of his children but some of his children decide to leave his family & become children of the devil, who God does want to punish because the devil knew right from wrong & decided to rebel against God & lead humans & angels away too
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 And before I forget... I set it up so that what your father would do would be a crime to begin with, and I've set that crime up with the worst punishment imaginable...
So think about it... god sets up everything, and puts human sacrifice up as the saving moment for all he set up to begin with. And also if you were looking for early Pagan influences in the bible as you said before, I would look to the human sacrifice that was Jesus.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 yes they're similaties between the world religions, I believe that is they set up of the devil & his fallen angels promoting these religions to eventually all come together as one beings there all so similar anyway. The death of Jesus is different because those who crucified him weren't aware of the meaning of his death, they were trying to get rid of a problem not trying to perform a ritual sacrifice. Jesus died once for all, not a routine ritual that other humans or animals have 2 die
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 at the first council of trent, in the 300's there weren't a lot of books that were early dated that were left out, ex:gospels of Peter, Judas, & Thomas are not found until late 100's the stories in it contradict with the other gospels big time. It's not like there were a lot of books to chose from, & they picked the best ones. They picked the books that were circulated & had early written dates, & were consistent with the other books what books do you feel like they left out & should've
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 when someone brings up the Jesus Isis, myth connections they sound as ignorant as someone who thinks the Bible says the earth is flat neither are true. Could it be that Jesus is a fallen angel sure, but what's most likely, & everyone has to look at the evidence & make up their own mind, what evidence is there that Isis is real & Jesus is a fallen angel, we don't have any record of people dying claiming they saw the resurrected Isis, but you do have that with Jesus Christ
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But that's the thing... there IS no evidence your god is better than the next. So what is most likely? I don't know. How can we know? By examining the evidence... but where is the evidence for god? Nowhere... oh and btw "proof" and "evidence" are thesame thing. Oh and if we have no record of Isis resurecting then how do you suppose we know now? Oh right... because of written records...
Plus, when I write in a book that my great grandmother resurrected, would you believe it?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 proof & evidence are not the same thing evidence - an outward sign : indication b : something that furnishes proof : testimony; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
proof - the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes but it boils down to thesame thing. What would you prefer, I use evidence or proof? I'll use evidence for convenience... settled then.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 not sure what this comment is about what is settled?
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 evidence of God being better than all other gods is a objective claim. Who one prefers, I might like God better than Zeus because their is more validity to God, you might like no one because you prefer having the least evidence. Better or worse, someone worships Baal because they like his story the best, how would you determine who's the best other than opinion? There is evidence of God everywhere, he's the creator of the universe, oh look we happen to live in a universe
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 I guess I'd have to read the book first, generally no one rises from the dead. & My belief from the evidence is only Jesus Christ ever was resurrected & possibly the other people who rose from their graves and went up to heaven with him. Other than that no people don't typically rise from the dead that's what makes Jesus Christ special & the event divine intervention. Have you ever looked into the evidence for the resurrection, there is a lot? Which is more evidence for God
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 No show me this evidence please and I will look into it.
So sometimes, you believe mere written words as unaquivocal proof of the truth of what is written? How do you think the world would be if everyone were to follow this kind of discerning fact from fantasy? I'd say the way the world was 500 years ago. Enjoy.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 read the Case for the real Jesus, or watch some of William Lane Craig debates on the Resurrection of Jesus. You believe the word you just wrote are evidence that you are right, you can test the words of scripture, when it describes human nature as being depraved you can check that verses your experience, mine was yes this is true humans behave badly, & so do I. When it talks about the hope of the afterlife worth seeking, I agree a perfect world is worth seeking above all else
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes a perfect world may be worth seeking, but you'll have to do it in this life because it's improbable there is an afterlife, as improbable as the existance of unicorns etc.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 i used to want an utopia, before I was believer but, now I'm much more fulfilled seeking the kingdom of God then I was trying to create or figure out how to make an utopia, it might seem improbable but if you seek God you'll find him if you put above all else
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes, it's a strong argument. Burn if you do not believe, heaven if you do. It's called a dichotomy, and a dichotomy always comes from an extreme position, and god is in such a position. Either you're wrong, or you're right. But as most things in life are, they are almost never either left or right, often there is a path in between. The only one that hasn't caught that appearantly, is god.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 strong argument yes, but also an easy one it's not like a choice between two equally tasty looking ice cream sundaes, but chose the wrong one & you burn forever. the choice is simple & easy to distinguish seek God first & you go to Heaven, make something else first & you will in the lake of fire forever.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 I mean it's a strong argument in the sense that it's powerfull to people who fall into the trap of a false dichotomy. You've fallen in that trap. And it would be a dichotomy if god would be proven to exist... luckaly it's not... because god has no basis in evidence and what also your video fails to do, is provide evidence. You say atheists can't go around a tree... I think we should take this video literally and conclude it's you who indeed cannot go around the tree.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 if you take it literally I went around the tree a couple of times, so that would be absurd. Again no one can prove God to you, that would rule out faith because you'd have perfect knowledge of God, & no faith would be required the best anyone has is evidence, I do believe if someone has the faith God will become known to them in one way or another, but not until they first have faith
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 ... but Muslims and Hindu's say thesame thing, and note thesame experience. When I tell you that flying monkeys exist, but you won't see them until you have faith... would that sound absurd to you? I bet it does.
You're basicly saying thesame thing to me, except the context is different, but the evidence for both are equal in amount.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 well it could be that yes if you believe in Allah or any of the Hindu gods you start to perceive more then your regular 5 senses, or you begin to notice the divine through your 5 senses, it might be Allah is real & Jesus & the Hindu Gods are the devil another supernatural being who deceives people who seek the supernatural & keeps them from the true Allah, what I believe is same story but Jesus Christ is truth & the others who deny him as the Christ are fallen angels or demons
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 how to determine which one is real compare & contrast their holy books, the Hindu Vedas say the earth rest ontop of turtles backs, the BIble says the earth hangs on nothing, The Koran says Jesus never died on the cross only someone who looked like him the Gospels & the epistles tell another story these details can be examined to see which one sounds most believable, or which one is true, mabye they all are maybe they all aren't I believe in the Bible is from God the others are demonic
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes and the bible talks about talking snakes, whales eating a man and that man living inside that whale. It talks about the dead returning to life etc. What is the difference in all this? Not much really, it's all absurd. You just happen to believe in one particular belief, but you have no REAL method to distinguish wether yours is better over another.
Indeed what you have is your "belief" or "faith" a.k.a. "belief in something for which there is no proof" [webster dictionary]
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 well Webster differs from how Paul defines in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. How can someone hope for it if somehow it wasn't brought to them either spiritually audibly, it went through their conscience. We can compare & contrast the different Holy Books, the Koran says Jesus didn't die on the cross the New Testament says he did, the Hindu Vedas say the world rest on Turtles backs, in Job it says the earth hangs on nothing
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 And what does it say about the molecular build up of the world? What does it say about how thunder discharges from the sky? It also says you should stone your child when it disobeys you... the bible says many things, we don't necessarily agree or disagree, but believing in god means agreeing with all of it. The Koran says scientifically accurate thigns aswell. The bible also tells us the earth is flat...
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat this is a giant misconception, the Koran could have good knowledge of how the earth works because a fallen angle gave the content, who'd have a better knowledge of things then man at 600 AD. Jesus & the New Testament are clear there is no more stoning of anyone, the law is not required anymore, we can eat what we want when we want, we can worship when & how we want and live anyway as long as it glorifies God, & is loving to our neighbors
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Then why did Jesus say that not an iota of the laws would be changed? He also says god is always thesame... so god killed and tortured people in the old testament... are you still defending the claim that he is loving? What you're saying is that also the ten commandmends do no longer apply... be consistent please.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 when he said he is the same he is, he is still God, & we will still be judged based on the ten commandments. I will fail & so will everyone else. Those who by faith accept Jesus Christ as the atonement of their sins they will be saved from going to the lake of fire. They have liberty in Christ & should use that liberty to honor God & serve their fellow brothers & sisters, I feed you lobster, or pork as long as you aren't allergic.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 I quote "the law is not required anymore", that's what you said, now you say the law, specificly the ten commandments, SHOULD be followed... make up your mind you're contradicting yourself. He is still god and god still thinks we should stone adulterers, because god doesn't change [so neither does his attitude towards actions good or bad] and ALSO "not an iota of the law will be changed" so there. Either the old testament is no longer applicable, along with the commandments, or it is.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 You have a misunderstanding of The Law and the Ten Commandments. The Law is the 613 regulations that the Jews had to follow up until Christ. The Ten Commandments are ten different things, and the only one that has a variation is the Sabbath, you can take a Sabbath whenever you want as long as it is to the Lord.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 I'm not talking about the content of the law, I'm talking about wether we should follow the law or not. Stop avoiding the issue. Either the old law does apply, or it doesn't. If you dismiss the old testament, then come to terms with the fact that the ten commandments, which are part of the law, are also dismissed. If you accept the ten commandments, you should also accept the other laws. Choosing only what you desire is cherry picking.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 have ever read the New Testament? Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath, Paul wrote it's ok to worship when we want how we want as long as it's to God. The law & the 10 commadments are not one in the same. The law does not apply to us because we have liberty in Christ to use that liberty to help one another & glorify God. Paul is clear we are not under the law any more the law was the school master to show us we can't on our own fulfill the law, that we need a savior, which has come
miking193 1 year ago
@Subher0 if you'd like we did a four part video series on the law called Believer's Freedom 1-4. Explaining through scripture why the law no longer applies
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Ok fine, maybe the law does not apply, but the ten commandments are a part of the law, saying they are not, is cherry picking... you want to exempt what you want to exempt. Wanting it doesn't change the fact that it is still part of the old testament law.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 no the 613 laws for the Jews while they lived before the Messiah are separate from the 10 commandements. It's not cherry picking it's what Jesus, Peter, & Paul all wrote about
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Ok show me the verses then, where it explicitly says "the ten commandments are separate from the other laws".
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 God lets everyone die, whether it's Old Testament or New Testament whether is war or cancer God lets everyone die, old or young, this isn't torture, some will go live with him forever in paradise, some will be with him in the lake of fire, we get to pick, he made us with the ability to pick
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Ugh. So torturing or raping someone before he dies, is allowed because GOD does it? Pretty hypocritical, is it not? Wether or not he promises me paradise afterwards, is irrelevant. A loving god would NEVER allow his "children" to be tortured under ANY circumstance. Else you LOSE the case of a loving god. It's very simple, please understand, use your mind.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Your point is that a loving God would never let anything bad happen to His children in this life, which is a speck of dust compared to eternity, right? When we are persecuted in this life, it builds up heavenly treasure for eternity. When Jesus came to earth, He suffered and died even though He was innocent. He took on all of our sins, and received much heavenly treasure for His sufferings.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 That is the lamest excuse I've ever heard in my life. "You'll get pie if I'm done slapping you, and the harder I slap you, the bigger piece of pie you'll get, isn't that great?"... Uhm no... it's not.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 why is that lame to you, those who are faithful to God, & loving & forgiving to others & stay faithful even during tribulation get rewarded for enduring
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But you're still not coming to terms with the fact that no loving creature would do whatever he does, trying to get you to believe. That's maniacal, egocentric, it's the worst form of manipulation around. You wouldn't tolerate a human being doing all the things your god does. You just accept it from your "god" because he's "your god" not because he's supposedly more moral than any of us.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 I wasn't A Christian till I was 21, I was into researching & practicing other faiths or lack their of, I did not particularly like the idea of being submissive to God, I wanted to be God & have nature submit to my will. When found out God loved me even though I was jerk, & obeying him I'd be more loving to others not just fulfilling my wants, but communing with God & helping others it was so much more beautiful then my single minded selfishness. God is love, he's not mean he is merciful
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 But you were still religiously inclined, though not a Christian. I've never been religious so I can't say how it feels to be religious. There are deep believing Christians who are now atheist, who had thesame "experiences" as you did, they had thesame thoughts like you, yet they saw their belief was undefendable. That's what you're doing now. You're defending something that cannot be defended, and the way to do that is to be ignorant of alot things we know about this world.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 I know dawkins & hitchens & harris make small fortunes writing how mean the God of the Oldtest is, & the idea of eternal punishment is awful. This is not an accurate picture of God, he didn't kill anyone who didn't rebel & refuse his love, he gives everyone the chance to repent of their sins, but most people won't, they blame God for being made that way or for punishing them, we have the option to have a new mind & to not live that way or desire sin, but to desire the kingdom of Heaven
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 "he didn't kill anyone who didn't rebel & refuse his love" so it's ok to kill someone, as long as god does it or allows it in certain circumstances? Can you actually believe what you are saying? Is that what you believe? Don't you understand a god who kills, is a-moral, for WHATEVER reason? [and not loving him back isn't even a big reason]. Listen to your own words, how you describe your own god. You're contradicting yourself in 5 minutes. You say god is love, then you say god kills..
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 not the same, God exist whether or not you believe in him. A creator of the universe that is outside of space & time that what we call physical matter is evident in that the universe exist & was created and a being or a mind that made the universe that is outside of it makes more sense then something came from nothing
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 No it is not. You're talking about misconceptions, science never said something came from nothing. Well depending on interpretations the bible may or may not say the earth is flat. It indeed does not say that directly, though it does say much to assume it. What can not be mis interpreted though is that it says the earth is "fixed" or "unmovable", that it DOES say. Talking further about something coming from nothing: god supposedly just "is there" that makes no sense either.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 the difference between God & the universe is the universe began at the Big Bang, time space & matter all began at this instance. If God created the universe he is not limited to it's what we call physical boundaries, he existed before it, & outside of it. God doesn't need a physical explanation or for us to understand how he was created he is eternal, God cannot be explained by natural events, materials or causes, because if he is, he is supernatural or else he doesn't exist
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Yes, the universe AS WE KNOW it began with the big bang. We simply do not know what came before it. No scientist ever said the big bang came from "nothing". SOmething that is outside of this limiting boundary of space is outside of our own existance, because we are INSIDE that limiting boundary. If there is a world outside this physical one, and it can interact with this world, that interaction is measurable. Measure that interaction, then come back.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 We made a video that addresses this point called Why Can't We Catch an All-Powerful, All-knowing God like a Butterfly? To summarize, if God is all-powerful and All-knowing and He doesn't want to be found by your measurements, He can evade them. If the Bible is true, then it must be true that the Devil has deceived most of the world.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Why on earth would god not want to be caught by our measurement? It's the most counter-productive thing he could do. If he was willing to show himself openly in the past, he should be willing now [god never changes]. Again you'd need to determine wether the bible is true, and if the devil can deceive us, god lets us, or is god less powerfull than the devil?
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 God wants those by the evidence given (creation, other believers, scripture their own conscience etc) to go this God is worth seeking above all else, I realize I'm a sinner & I'd like to live in world where there was no sin, only God can do this. God appeared to those in the Old Testament & New to people who had already made their decision to believe on him
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 well then god is stupid, and it's clearly not working because the bigger part of the world does not accept the evidence he has given. And then when he continues saying he wants everybody to end up in heaven, he's contradicting it with his own actions. BTW Creation is obviously not evident since life clearly evolved from previous organisms, like humans who share a common ancestor with other modern apes.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 Jesus said the road was narrow, so to have few amount of people who really believe is not surprising but part of testimony that what Jesus said is true. If everyone believed & acted Christ like, Jesus would been a false prophet & predicted wrong.
miking193 1 year ago
@miking193 Well there were other "prophets" who had thesame characteristics and circumstances in birth. It's easy to say "they were fallen angels" if you say something, you have to back up what you say. If I would tell you a flying monkey who shoots fire out of its eyes is waiting for you outside on a tree, you'd say I'm a kookoo for cocopuffs, because I can't show you and other than my word you have nothing. Now change "flying monkey" with "god" and you know my stance on the matter.
Subher0 1 year ago
@miking193 And you're saying that "sharing the gospel" is proof he exists? So if muslims would say that sharing the Koran is proof of Allah's existance... you'd be forced to accept it when they would share it with you, as you see this as a form of viable evidence. I hope you see the fallacy in that logic with this tiny example.
Subher0 1 year ago
@Subher0 sharing the Gospel is part, of the evidence, no I have talked to Muslims & have not converted, don't get confused with evidence & proof. No where did I share is sharing the gospel the only evidence.
miking193 1 year ago
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newclarence 1 year ago
@newclarence First will you admit you were wrong about your previous comment being inaccurate? Anyway even if you don't here's the chapter & verse Zechariah 11:12 This verse is talking about the value of the Messiah sold by his disciple to those who had been appointed by the Lord to fulfill what was recorded in the scriptures The prophet Zechariah was chosen by God to be one of prophets to reveal the truth to the Old Testament believers concerning both the first and second coming of the Messiah
miking193 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@miking193 Inaccuracies? Ill give you the benefit of a doubt, Im not infallible.
Please see my next post.
newclarence 1 year ago
@miking193 I read Zach 11:12-13. I read a story about a guy who got paid 30 pieces of silver and claims that god told him to give it to a potter. This is a prophecy? I see nothing about Jesus. Mathew certainly knew the story. Maybe he just put it in to fulfill the prophecy. None of the other gospels mention this. Finally, so what? Maybe the old prophets possessed some magical ability to read the future. Crazy as that is, it still is not evidence of god or the divinity of Jesus.
newclarence 1 year ago
@newclarence you left out major portions of the story to fit your "nonsense view" of coarse if you say all that is in Zach 11 is a story about a guy giving a potter 30 pieces of silver it looks totally unrelated, but if you fill in the rest of the chapter about the Lord breaking his staff & the value was for 30 pieces of silver, with those details included the the relationship Jesus being the staff the Lord breaks & it was valued at 30 pieces of silver the prophecy comes into picture
miking193 1 year ago
@newclarence I'm not sure what you know about prophecy but in the scriptures it doesn't always say ***pay attention this is specific prophecy about such & such, this is what it means, this is what to exactly expect, & here's exactly what the metaphor about the future is in plain English Words of prophecies are there but there aren't as spelled out as saying the Eagles will Superbowl 50, by 50 points They're sandwiched into verses that have to be discerned by the holy spirit for those who seek
miking193 1 year ago
@newclarence prophets had magical abilities to see into the future, how did they get such ability. Why did they all use that ability to talk about Jesus Christ, why didn't some use it to predict Buddah, or to invest in Microsoft? Jesus Christ fulfilled every single of the over 300 prophecies in first coming of the messiah, to be an atonement for the peoples sins, to be born in Bethlehem to live before the destruction the 2nd temple, etc.the accuracy of the prophecies to show evidence he is God
miking193 1 year ago