Phoenix Electric Vehicle Debut at 2007 Pasadena Earth Day

[metalschooldrill]

Since electric cars use much electricity accelerating from a stop they should have a wind-up spring that winds up only when coming to a stop. That is to put the kenetic energy back in to potential mechanical energy. Right now Prius has it's overpriced generators that attempt to recapture the kenetic energy when stopping but they are not saying exactly how that energy is used up in what amount of time. I'll just tell you it hardly captures energy compared to how it is then used up fast.

[Security98]

30 grand. I was gonna buy it but dang

[RyanBlockb5]

Where is the vehicle? All the video i'v seen are two years old or older.

[chrisw443]

google and u can get on a mailing list in 2010 they will start selling out of california. I live in oregon and i really wanna buy one!

[2007Escalade]

$45,000? Cheaper than a Tahoe!

[edstar83]

EV IS NOW!!!!

[slonerider777]

It gets 3.71 miles per kwh, so you can drive 10,000 miles for under $450 if your electric rate is $0.16 per kwh.

[kostea13]

EV IS THE FUTURE !

[DRSmetal]

Some people are spending $20-30,000 to convert their cars. With this it's in that same price range and it's already electric!! Why is the Tesla Roadster getting so much attention when it's so expensive?

[deedundone]

exactly, there " a need for the roadster"......no theres a need for a company to make ev's for middle class america. im all for this, its expensive, but damn when people can afford bmw and Audi it doesnt seem so bad lol....

[mint25MD]

It gets 3.71 miles per kwh, so you can drive 10,000 miles for under $450 if your electric rate is $0.16 per kwh.

[bd189]

am i the only one who remembers the simpson episode when homer was with a secret society who was singing a song that had a line like; 'who keeps away the electric car? we do!, we do!'

[richystar2001]

Bullshit it's not selling NOW...to the public that is. You can buy one if you have a 100,000$. They won't give one up for less!

[kurtgainz]

SUV selling in the low 30's... I will have to look into that for sure.

[66Lincoupe]

The Truck will be 47,500 and the SUV will be 54,000 according to Phoenix's website (you have to hunt a bit) Right now you can only buy them for fleet use. Looks like we'll have to wait until 2010 for a consumer version.

[k3456789]

phoenix should put solar panels all over the car so it would charge in the sun while you are shopping

thanks phoenix wish you the best

[DanFrederiksen]

she says sells for 45k but are they actually for sale? have they sold even a single one?

or is she a liar

[basaatw]

electric car news Altair International makes the battery in this video

March 5, 2008; GENEVA -- Top executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. Tuesday expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term and suggested their companies are now betting that electric cars will prove to be a better way to reduce fuel consumption and cut tailpipe emissions on a large scale.

[k3456789]

first they smashed the electric car now they will be building one again; they are afraid gasoline will go to $8/gal that is what they worry about and that no one will be buying these cars anymore

Go phonix lets smash this gasoline car makers and oil suppliers

[TheThh]

that woman has so ugly voice!

[devja71]

This is sure looking better. hope to see this company strive. anyone know if the materials are made in usa? i'm from canada but i love to see americans do 'mselves good. if they can make these ev's in the usa w/no or at least very little outsourcing, it'd sure shine a light on the future. suddenly all those 6 oclock news stories that the sky's falling due to oil would become laughable. Love to see more kits to convert old rear wheel drive's to ev. pull the flathead out my old merc and ev it

[adric22]

I see a lot of confusion here over Lithium batteries. Cars do not use Lithium-Ion batteries. They use Lithium-Iron which is different and much safer. They will not explore or catch on fire.

[killian1701]

what are you smoking? they most certainly DO use Lithium ION batteries. 3 of my 4 homebuilt ev's use Lithium-Ion battieries.

[adric22]

The most common chemistry is LiFePO4. Go look it up on the periodic table. Fe = Iron.

[expert1221]

Why not put Solar Palels on the Flat Bed Cover so I can let it charge 8 to 10 hours while I'm at work.

[JefFest07]

Because solar panels are not cheap. An extension cord is.

[anthonycut]

NiMH is the ONLY proven chemistry....LiON is a way to push the whole EVident EV change over back a few years...

I'm in ....6 months with the 2000 Ford Ranger NiMH EV has shown me....I.C.E. is DEAD!

[GegoXaren]

humm, i wander if there have an emergency solar panel system, cos that would be cool to have, or even a model that have solar cells, so that you could extend the max range...

[lithiumcharged]

I'm still waiting for a reply (other than the automatically generated greeting) to several e-mails that I sent to Phoenix over a month ago. Surely someone in the company has a minute to spare. I would love to see a range of electrical vehicles built here in Australia using Phoenix technology, and at the same time slow down the costly importation of cars from Asia and Europe.

[hotrodfun]

This is what we need!

[isaacopedal]

That's not bad at all. I was thinking the techonlogy wasn't there because GM's VOLT only goes 40 miles, but I guess there's a reason GM sucks.

[teamhex]

Its because they want you to still use oil.

[cant7think7clearly]

I read recently car makers make up to 30% of the profit of a new car in after-sale parts & servicing so I can understand auto makers not wanting EV's. There would be a sizeable industry destroyed if we all drove them.

I kinda still want one though. :)

[Sc0rPsX]

Screw the stagnated money leaching industry, I want pure electric and put in a portable charging system of some type if I have to! =D

[789123mike]

Wow, what a great EV! If manufaturers are ever going to get EV's out they need to stop wasting time with stuff like the Eliica and the ZeroSports.

[Nichen]

When you´ll have the 250 mile range with this car, trust me it will be a winner

[bostoncbr]

I answered my own question after some research. After Chevron-owned Cobasys won their lawsuit against Panasonic, Panasoinc must pay a royalty for Prius NiMH batteries until 2015, believed to be 3%. It also stipulated NiMH licencing for "certain transportation applications" only, which may explain why the RAV4 EV was killed off. In other news, Chevron appears to be selling Cobasys.

[terrorist420x]

I hope they do sell them to someone who will get it to consumers. We need the battery technology now. If it gets sold to another oil company, a defense contractor, or one of the Big Three though, it will probably be locked up for good.

Panasonic can't make large format NiMH, either, as part of the settlement. The settlement has some of its contents secret, but NiMH patent Chevron controls specifies over 10 AH. Viable NiMH EV battery for long range will need to be over 60 AH.

[bostoncbr]

I assume you're using lead acids in your Triumph GT6 EV? Check out this idea: Build an air-cooled standard 18650 Li-ions pack, 1/4 size of Tesla's liquid cooled. (1700 batteries).  Drill thru-holes in slabs of aluminum the size of the batteries to isolate a fire. If you can get them for $250/KWh like you said, the cost is $3000 for 12KWh, good for ~60 miles and weigh only 175 lbs + Aluminum (lighter than the engine you took out). Re-pack every 5 years when batteries die but prices go down.

[terrorist420x]

A pack that small would only give me about 80 horsepower from the batteries. Factoring in motor losses at full throttle(1000 amps and series DC motor), I'm looking at about 50 horsepower reaching the transmission. Not enough. 12 kWh would take this car about 80+ miles using lead acid, but li ion is lighter so more range.

[terrorist420x]

Further, that $3,000 only applies in a mass production scenario of electric cars. $250/kWh according to Argonne National Laboratories assumes high production volume of EVs to bring pack costs down. Without mass production of EVs, the reality is that 18650s today cost about $500-700/kWh, which is exactly what Tesla is paying. They plan a sub $30,000 sedan and know it's possible, but only with volume.

[Beamshipcaptain]

With today's lithium-polymer, or lithum, manganese-cells, All-Electric cars like the ZAP-Lotus from ZAP-technology in Nevada have a 300-350-mile range, and new charging technology allows full-discharge to full charge in only: TEN-MINUTES!

[terrorist420x]

And that is more than enough for consumer acceptance.

In the 1990s, we could have had 30 minute recharges and 150 miles range with NiMH batteries. That was also good enough for consumer acceptance.

While the ZAP car appears to be vaporware, the technology to build it exists.

Fortuantely for the electric car, the technology has been there for a long time; unfortunately, politics is its major roadblock.

[TomtenT]

NIMH !?

Li-Ion is the starting-point since some time now ...

Hope noone commercial force will block environmentally healthy technology any more !!!!

[scr44k]

Current hybrid cars (including the Prius) use Ni-Mh batteries, which are expected to last 7-10 years. Current Li-Ion batteries don't last that long. Li-Ion batteries are also less durable, and can explode or ignite if misused or damaged.

[Nichen]

This is probably THE BEST electric car AVAILABLE today around the world.

[Nichen]

FUCKIN AWSOME electric car.

[geniegogo]

This is what GM should do- they should buy up the entire fleet just to keep them off public roads. If not, there is danger of a paradigm shift beginning. Lol, but I kid GM.. <wink>  While GM is buying out their production, funding is going to Phoenixmotorcars so it's a win-win situation.

=) And that's just how much it costs to put down EVs.

[geniegogo]

Wow, I went to their site, that SUT is quite awesome. It's even heavy at over 3,500 lbs and will still carry 4-5 people.

[zigadabooga]

Nilar NiMH cells have a 2000 cycle life that's over 200,000 miles...

[terrorist420x]

But can you buy them? In my in-progress Triumph GT6 conversion, a 1,000 pound pack of NiMH would give me about 200 miles range at 65 mph, or about 50 miles range at the simulated 140 mph top speed. That would be ~400,000 miles battery life and a shelf life in decades.

[joness105639]

one big problem about the "camping" thing. The place I go camping is a good 275 miles away, just beyond the range of it even with the extra batteries, and worse still I like roughing it. I hate having power outlets at my camp site. Untill you can charge it faster, and build solar panels into it (in case you dont have cess to an outlet) electric cars will only be good for around town. Certainly couldnt take a road trip down route 66 in one of those.

[terrorist420x]

Actually, we could have had fast charge infrastructure all through California and along Route 66 during the 1990s. Southern California Edison tried to raise the funds to develop it, and the proposal was stopped before it started by oil industry lobbyists(such as that crusty oil bitch Anita Mangels).

In the 1990s, Aerovironment had developed fast chargers which could charge lead acid and NiMH packs in under 30 minutes, bordering on good enough for long distance travel and mass market appeal.

[anewlow23]

Route 66 doesn't even exist anymore and why not just go have way charge for ten minutes then go a quarter of the way charge for another ten minutes and by the time you get to you campsite you are fully charged or close to it so wise up.

[Dilekz]

Damn the red/black with good rims.. it looks COOL.

For 45 000 dollars ? thats like 34 000 euro :D OMG our car costed 29 000 euro.

COME TO EUROPE PLEASE BABY.. ill buy it. I mean think about it.. no roadtax, no maintenance( yes only brakes and tires...) And shit.. NO GASOLINEEEEEE.

And driving an electric car is more fun.. everytime I drive... i think about the ammount of money i am trowing away for driving a bit arround. NOW you can drive for FUN... and not worry about anything..

[TheBishopSSR]

Ppl, most of you miss the most important point in what she said- 10 MINUTE charge! I mean HOLY S*^%! And a price is already reasonable, twice cheaper than, say, Tesla Roadster (of course you can't compare the two, since one is a truck and another is a sports car)

[CleighFranks]

The bed is open for storage. The batteries are located underneath the truck.

[Charles2337]

10 minute charge!??? holy shit!

[zigadabooga]

$45,000??? Wow I thought it would be cheaper.

[terrorist420x]

It's low volume. I'm amazed it's as cheap as it is. Now if they had production capacity to crank out 10,000 of these per month, price would drop to something much more affordable. But they don't have that capacity; only the big automakers do and they refuse to make electric cars.

[zigadabooga]

No production can't explain why they are using Li-ION cells 2x as expensive as NiMH, or how about making it a smaller truck that seats two? They aren't trying hard enough to 'break the mould'.

[terrorist420x]

Chevron has control over large format NiMH batteries and refuses to market them for electric vehicle applications and aggressively sues anyone who tries. Since NiMH are very difficult to charge in parallel and you risk small single cells going into thermal runaway, and since using small format NiMH has excessive cooling and management requirements, and since small format NiMH doesn't have the cycle life of large format NiMH from Ovonic or Panasonic, Li Ion is actually a more practical choice.

[zigadabooga]

EXACTLY! That's why I ask these questions. I want more people to ask Chevron why? NiMH for the cost is the best choice if we could get large format. Until Li-ION companies like AltairNano, Litium Technology Corp. and PowerStream's LiFePO4 get cheaper that is...

EVERYONE ASK WHY!

[terrorist420x]

If Altair's 10,000 cycle life claim is true(a third party says it is), and shelf life is the 20+ years claimed(unverified), then lifecycle cost will be very good compared to gas no matter how expensive the battery is. But if its expensive, that would still make purchase price outside of the range of the working and middle class. If Altair can get cost down to $500/kWh in volume, that would be good for a $35,000 luxury car EV with 150 miles range that pays itself off in gas savings in 10 years.

[bostoncbr]

Chevron doesn't own Panasonic's NiMH technology, do they? Toyota plans on continuing to use Panasonic's NiMH on the 2009 plug-in prius (which is really an electric vehicle for the 1st 40 miles) and then switching to lighter Li-Ions in 2011. Yes, Chevron likely bought the NiMH competition to kill it to sell more oil. Nano Li-Ions will leap frog NiMH when the prices come down. A123's Nano Li-ions are already in Dewalt power tools with great reviews.

[terrorist420x]

Chevron/Cobasys lays claim to sealed prismatic NiMH modules over 10 AH. Panasonic had the shit sued out of them for selling their own seperate technology, thus large format NiMH batteries were no longer on the market.

The problem with Li Ions is cost. UC Davis quotes $225/kWh in automotive volume for NiMH and 1,750 cycle life. A123s batteries, even in volume, would be hovering around $700/kWh. We need under $300/kWh for an affordable EV.

[terrorist420x]

Ordinary off the shelf 18650 Li Ions last about 500 cycles to full discharge; Argonne National Labs quotes $250/kWh in mass production of electric cars. Unlike A123/Altair, shelf life is an issue, 5-10 years if properly charged/thermally managed(much less if not). An affordable EV could be made with 18650s in volume, but would break even with today's gas prices. NiMH breaks even at $1.30/gal gas, see study "Evaluation of Electric Vehicle Production and Operating Costs" by Cuenca and Gaines.

[Beamshipcaptain]

With my daily commute and driving, with the Plug-in Prius, coming next year, I would rarely ever use gasoLIEN ever again!

[anewlow23]

To bostoncbr have you heard anything about Milwaukee drill batteries and their composition?

[bostoncbr]

Anewlow23, I assume you mean their Li-ion line. Their web site claims 2000 cycle/5 years but there's no mention of nano materials in their electrodes. I wonder if they're making promises they can't keep.

[Charles2337]

Ontario California??? huh?

[garyisse]

Yeap, it's in Southern California just east of Claremont, Pomona and Montclair and south of Upland. I think it's in San Bernardino County but I'm not sure.

[Charles2337]

lol wow. as a canadian im surprised lol.

[zigadabooga]

yes it's a city in So Cal

[zigadabooga]

yes a city... :P

[Charles2337]

Wow i had no idea =)

[zigadabooga]

We also have a Paris, CA ;)

[cant7think7clearly]

I hope it takes off too! That's a great ute - I'd love one and I envy anyone who has one. Must be great being able to laugh when gas prices go up. Stopping at gas stations just to use the air for tyres. Brilliant!

[timthelder]

Hmmm,being that I would be saving a couple of hundred bucks a month in gas expense,I might even be able to afford one...

[CleighFranks]

Now that I am registered, I can answer your Qs. Yes the truck goes 0-60 in less than 10 seconds. I just drove it on CA freeways yesterday in the fast lane. Financing will be done on the client's side. So just go to your bank and get the loan for the truck. That way you can determine your payment plan.

[tooomp]

That is fantastic! I notice that the bed is covered is this for the batteries? Is there any remaining bed? If not you are still left with awesome performance and a very good range, sure the vehicle is big for 5 passengers but as efficient as it is who cares?

[roidroid]

i think the batterys are in the front, ontop of the engine.

in this video:

watch?v=KCkXwwEC2p8

[Raisinjeff]

This'll be available to the public around the same time if not before the Tesla Roadster, and be less than half the price.  Plus it has more passenger room and a much faster charge time (10 minutes). I want to buy one, but I can't afford it right now - unless they offer a payment plan (NOT A LEASE).

[EvilMongrelMonkey]

charge time is due to an off-board charger (meaning not in the car). The charger probably costs another 10 to 20 thousand dollars.

[zigadabooga]

No I doubt it would cost that much. A 100 amp charger is about $500. To charge this battery pack (35Kw) in 10 mins you'd need 220V * 950A. Maybe $3K - $4K. It'd pay for it's self in just a year...

[Charles2337]

oh wow, i would still buy it, save the environment! Or you can ride a bike =P

[zigadabooga]

Yeah! EV's are more efficient than gas or hydrogen fuel cells...

[Charles2337]

Man, I want an EV sobadly, only problem is the batteries are so expensive. =( They should seriously invest on battery technology so the price can go down.

[zigadabooga]

People have invested on battery technology, problem is the big oil industry has locked up patents on large format cells which would bring down costs and raise efficiency. Look up info on Cobasys (NiMH batteries) and Chevron owning them...

[Charles2337]

Yeh i watched the movie who killed the electric car. Some serious stuff. Oil companies don't want to lose money.

[joness105639]

?? Not so. It depends on what the power source is. If you are geting your electricity from an antiquated coal buring power plant, you'll burn more fuel than if you get it from the sun. It also depends on how you drive. In 1976 Andrew Rennie drove a '72 MGB 1085 miles on only 16 1/2 gallons! The car was completely stock. He only loosened the bearings and put extra air in the tyres!

[terrorist420x]

He must have been going a steady 35 mph in 4th gear to achieve that, given the drag coefficient of that car is about .4 and frontal area roughly 18 square feet. Crazy.

[joness105639]

He carefully planned his trip and made sure there were some downhill streaches, shut the engine off on the downhill. Other cars that deserve mention are the, Mesherscmidt KR200(100 mpg in 1955), Peel p50 (100 mpg in 1963), and BMW Isetta (60 mpg). If you modify your driving style I'm sure you cold squeze a few more out too.

[terrorist420x]

I know about the microcars you mention. I like them. :-)

I used hypermiling techniques in a Suzuki Sidekick. EPA 21 mpg comb, but used engine off coasting, 40 mph in the slow lane on the highway in 5th gear, accelerating 2/3 throttle and shifting up at 2500 rpm, religiously trying to avoid use of the brakes. I've made a few 35 mpg runs.

It's not my car though, but if it's ever given to me, aerodynamic modifications, synthetic transmission oil, and LRR tires will be done.

[TheThh]

wtf? does japs make cars todays? have seen only those tiny ricers

[JUKIO01]

0-60 secs ??? for the truck

[garyisse]

According to their web site phoenixmotorcars . com ... it does 0 to 60 m.p.h. in 10 seconds

[voyager1985]

Yes!

[manolis1080]

coooool :)! can it charge in less than 10 minutes regullary and without any problem 2 the battery ?

[garyisse]

Sorry, I've been trying to reply to your comment but it isn't showing up. I think because I am trying to post an email. Anyway, I don't know the naswer to your question but you could ask Corey, the salesperson in the video. Her email is her name at the company web site. Phoenix Motor Cars (dot) com.

[JUKIO01]

i heard lithium ion batteries can charges in the matter of seconds or minutes. pretty cool stuff if you ask me

[garyisse]

I think their battery is a new type called lithium titanate that's suppose to be even better than the lithium ion. That's supposedly what gives this truck an edge up.

[riverjustin]

Good stuff, cool truck, peace!:) ahhyes