Bethany Lutheran: Part 2 2008 Eucharist, Stripping of Altar

[womanwonder10]

@Qcumber Your t.u.l.i.p. is wilted, and faulted! Did you just come here to put down Lutheans. Go to your own site, or, if there isn't any, make one. But you've got your faith and Lutherans have their's. Faith in Christ's death and resurrection is what really matters!!! This isn't at all like the Lutheran church I go to! Take care.

[womanwonder10]

@wakwak1986 You can be Catholic, but we're not!! This is not a typical Lutheran service! And I would like to know what synod this particular church is in, for it is very unfamiliar to me! Sorry, not going to Catholic. Why would we throw away Luther's work? He had it right!! And still does -- in my LCMS synod!!

[womanwonder10]

wakwak1986 This is not a typical Lutheran service! Lutherans are NOT calvinists or Arminean! I would like to know what synod this particular church is in, for it is very unfamiliar to me! Sorry, not going to Catholic. Why would we throw away Luther's work? He had it right!! And still does -- in my LCMS synod!!

[wakwak1986]

It is more Roman Catholic rites, better back to the fold of the true Church than making your own.

[lichtbroeder]

Are Lutherans "high church" and "low church" like Anglicans are? I went to a Lutheran Mass (called "mass") in Baltimore and it was very Roman Catholic in appearance. In Europe, one also sees a wide use of vestments and the use of traditional music, like that of Bach. A local Lutheran church however uses new music, the priests wear just an alb and stole, and services are kind of trendy. Why the differences?

[karpov89]

@lichtbroeder My church, the biggest and most important Lutheran church in the world, Church of Sweden, is high church as a body - compared to other Lutheran churches. It retains the historic episcopate and Apostolic Succession (though not recognized by the Catholic Church of course). Within the church there is broad church, high church, old church and low church. The mass is called the mass and then the priests (or bishops) are wearing a chasuble. Check out my site for videos.

[lichtbroeder]

@karpov89 Thank you for the explanation. I think it wonderful that some churches founded during the Reformation are able to understand that many ancient outward traditions are "catholic" - being part of Christian heritage in general. From what I have read, more destruction of these things occurred in England during the Reformation than in Scandinavia or Germany. Now, Lutherans and Anglicans have access to the richness of their Christian heritages.

[karpov89]

@lichtbroeder Well; Sweden (and Finland which was a part of Sweden until 1809) and Denmark-Norway (was united under the monarch of Denmark from at least the 15th century until 1814) was quite different during the reformation and our reformation was not finished until 1593. Denmark is not a dark spot; very anti catholic and their priests do usually not wear liturgical vestments.

[739richard]

@karpov89 During lent and on Maundy Thursday it is traditional in some Rites to omit the use of the chasuble and (certainly) dalmatics (if a deacon is present) as these are 'joyous' vestments. I think if you look at Bethany's Easter celebrations there is a brief clip at the end showing the pastor wearing a casuble. In our local Anglican church White is used for Maundy but dalmatics are not worn (except on festival days) during Lent. The priests wear simple cloth casubles with little decoration

[karpov89]

@739richard I never heard of omitting the chasuble during lent, we have purple chasubles. I wish the use of dalmatics were more common in the Lutheran churches, I have only seen that a few times and then there was concelebrating priests wearing it.

[739richard]

@karpov89 Certainly agree with you about dalmatics - of course a Priest is also a Deacon so can properly act as a Deacon at Mass.

Not disputing that the purple Chasuble is normal during lent - only pointing out that there are other correct rites (some of which are far older than the reformation). I find these variantions very interesting - as are your videos of different Lutheran practices in Sweden.

[karpov89]

@739richard Yes he is...in the video Mässa i Heliga Trefaldighet 1 - Lutheran high church mass in Uppsala, you see two priests acting as deacon and subdeacon - which we do not have at all.

[karpov89]

Something is wrong here though; the liturgical color of Maundy Thursday is white as we celebrate that our Lord Jesus Christ gave us the eucharist.

[karpov89]

Yes the liturgy of the lutheran mass is very similar to the mass (Novos Ordo) of the roman catholic church, as can be seen in my videos.

[PeeFinster]

Lutheranism is straight out of the pits of hell!

[Qcumber]

The liturgy of a Lutheran service is very close to that of its Roman Catholic model, and contrasts deeply with a Calvinist service.

[karpov89]

@Qcumber Well of course Lutheran and Calvinist is like day and night..but there are still differences (and I also compare to my Lutheran church) a chasuble is worn, the liturgical color is of course white and there is no altar boy behind the altar. It is still quite good for being American Lutheran as I understand it. And I agree the video is fine

[739richard]

@karpov89 Like you I thought that WHITE was invariably correct. However I've checked this and both the ELCA and LCMS permit purple as an alternative - particularly if a complete communion liturgy is not to be used (i.e. service ends with striping the altar). I think the Pastor has deliberately chosen Purple as he is going with a very penttential service beginning with the beautiful (?unique?) Lutheran rite of individual absolution with the laying on of hands. Generally well done Bethany Lutheran

[karpov89]

@739richard Well, according to the tradition of the Lutheran churches which has a direct connection to the prereformation Catholic Church (like Church of Sweden)white is a must on Maundy Thursday. The holy mass is always celebrated and the altar is stripped after the Liturgy of the Eucharist. But the colors of the vestments are not changed. Then on Good Friday the color is black.

[karpov89]

But wearing a chasuble is indeed Lutheran..

[estoniaintexas]

NO it isn't Lutheran....seriously?...are you kidding me?  Better re-read your history,,,,thanks.

[karpov89]

The liturgical color of Maundy Thursday is white that is a fact; both in the Catholic church, Roman rite, in the Anglican Communion, the major Lutheran churches (being the Church of Sweden the biggest and most important of them all), including the ELCA.

[TRKWP]

yes, but forgiven.

[karpov89]

The words and the melody of the Sursum corda and eucharistic prayer is very similar to a common one in the Church of Sweden. I wonder however, why does the Reverend not wear the chasuble? Pax et bonum

[Gspijkenisse]

this is lutheran.. not catholic

[companionprayer]

Read the christianity , church and truth parts.

totustuus . c o m /q+a . h t m

[Raven0065]

1 Tim 4: 1-2: The Spirit has explicitly said that during the last times some will desert the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines that come from devils.

1 Tim 6: 3-4: Anyone who teaches anything different and does not keep to the sound teaching which is that of our Lord Jesus Christ, the doctrine which is in accordance with true religion, is proud and has no understanding.

[wjweigand]

It's absolutely amazing how much the phoney Novus Ordo service mirrors this Lutheran one.

[Raven0065]

Satan is not creative, just reliant on secondrate mimicry. Pax true Christian.

[Raven0065]

Titus 1: 9: he must have a firm grasp of the unchanging message of the tradition, so that he can be counted on both for giving encouragement in sound doctrine and for refuting those who argue against it. Return to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. There is no salvation outside this Catholic Church. 2 Tim 2: 14 If we persevere, then we shall reign with him. If we disown him, then he will disown us. If we are faithless, he is faithful still, for he cannot disown his own self. FACT.

[joeb0]

You know nothing about the Church. You just think your interpretation is better than the Body of Christ. Jesus says that if you do not partake in his body and blood, you have no life in you. The Holy Spirit was given to the apostles and the apostles passed the authority to the Bishops. Paul even tells Timothy to get to Rome before winter to meet up with Linus. Linus is the 2nd Bishop of Rome after Peter. Even Jesus participates in the communion of saints and we don't worship saints or statues.

[karpov89]

Who were you responding too? No one worship saints or statues...but we do honour the saints and ask them to pray for us.

[joeb0]

that was to pertencoacristo, he said something against Christ's body in the Eucharist and against the communion of Saints. So naturally as a church militant aka pilgrim I had to defend Christ's body.

[karpov89]

Ok I see, well his remark is removed now and not to be seen. I agree with you anyway.

[Delta767300ER]

Hey folks, Dont let Raven get to you.  I'm Episcopalian and I am sure he is going to slam my church.

This is a great video. Lutherans do a good job!

[NorseLuther]

Wonderful video! God bless you!!!!!

[Raven0065]

Who cares. No unity with Rome = false Christianity (Pius X11, Mortalium Animos 1928)

[Raven0065]

Learn your history and scripture, my friend. Peace.

[Ymelops]

Oh, we did and we do it again and again. Do you?

[EuphrasieF]

We most certainly do!

[pastorgeoff]

what is the song at the beginign when the baskets r brought to the pastors?

[jacero10]

Alas, my treason, Jesus hath undone thee! 'Twas I, Lord Jesus,I it was denied thee I crucified thee

Gives me chills every time.

[lutheranorthodoksi]

How true. That line always gets me. Usually, I will be serving in some form at that point, and I still find it hard to keep a straight face at that point.

[jacero10]

I think some of the clips are out of order here. The opening piece with the striping of the altar would be Holy Thursday at the conclusion of the rite. The Eucharist celebrated afterward, I'm guessing, is from some other Lenten celebration as the proper color for Holy Thursday is white.

Interesting to see a burse, havent seen that in some time in a Catholic setting. Not to be snarky, but he really needs to get a chasuble. Alb and stole is so 70's! He chants pretty well.

[pastorgeoff]

whats the song that starts at 1:00?

[lutheranorthodoksi]

It is a traditional song taken from the Psalms, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit in me. Cast me not away from your presence and take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of your salvation and uphold me with your free spirit."

[pastorgeoff]

thank you

[lockerby]

So nice to see our full communion partners recovering the liturgical heritage of the Sacred Triduum.

And the Assisting Minister can have my number...

[Norskyone]

It's not necessarily a matter of recovery. Many Lutherans, world-wide have retained the fullness of liturgical tradition, including the Triduum. Some American Lutherans hit a period of discontinuity with this when the several immigrant Churches merged and had to try to conform to a common (English) language tradition. To avoid favoring one tradition, many traditions were, for a period put aside.