Universal Healthcare Debate 12: Closing Remarks, part 2 (12/12)

[SuperGuitarman69]

@orgasmicide2 Income taxes will not go to healthcare. This is where i have huge problem with our general population. They do not understand government and the scams that are vast and unregulated in GOVERNMENT. Income taxes go directly to pay the interest on the debt to the federal reserve. NOT one dime is appropriated for anything else. So when you say soak the rich? It is meaningless. Always has been. Surplus has NOTHING to do with taxes. It has to do with bubbles and less spending. FACT!

[johammbass]

Krugman wants France? He is an idiot. Just look at how people vote with their feet. Who emigrates to France? Non productive Arab welfare mothers. Who emigrates to the U.S.? People who want to achieve something. France is a failing nanny state that attracts non productive loosers

[groam6666]

A politician taking money from Joe and giving it to Bob, can always count on the support of Bob. Same crap here.

[Xenthoid]

i wonder why no one has talked about UHC in swizterland that is actually private system..

[radscorpion8]

that was a great debate! I wonder how well France's UHC is though...whether the market can do better. Because there's a line that's crossed eventually where the decrease in wait time, the increase in innovation and the lowering of costs through open competition are worth more in terms of live saving capability than the promise of universal health care regardless of income. Its nice to hear that upon review Quebec legalized the better option..hopefully the same would happen in the USA

[SuperGuitarman69]

I see now I've watched this whole thing. It's ran by Liberals. typical. I'm about to watch the Bush one this should piss me off too

[GeneralJakass]

@SuperGuitarman69 lol since the "liberal" side won, it must have a liberal bias!

[SuperGuitarman69]

@GeneralJakass No. We know facts and empirical evidence. We are bankrupt. The healthcare in socialist countries its deplorable. I know this first hand. Obama care will be repealed. I see the leftist falling more and more to an informed public. Common sense, and integrity is inherent in normal people. Not the leftist

[GeneralJakass]

@SuperGuitarman69 Actually I just returned from Germany (Munich, Frankfurt) and France (Versailles, Paris) and their health system is remarkable compared to the US, so I know just as much as you do.

Watch the Frontline with T.R Reid.  And also if you pay attention to public opinion polls, you'll realize that fewer and fewer employers are offering health care

Gallup's recent poll, "U.S. Employer-Based Health Coverage Continues to Decline" exploits the inequities of a purely privatized system.

[SuperGuitarman69]

@GeneralJakass I am a professional musician. You visited these countries? I have to be over there because of my job. A lot. We have 280 million people in this country with privately owned incredibly wonderful healthcare. I was in France last month. My co worker had a seizure. The idiot doctor said it was caused by stress and dehydration. I argued with him and told them it looked like a diabetic seizure. As soon as we got home he went to a REAL doctor. They said in less than a week... P1

[SuperGuitarman69]

@GeneralJakass he would have had another seizure, lapsed into a coma and possibly died. Sorry, I was there. I seen how there emergency and hospital rooms had hooks for saline bags and the while look of the room liked like they were treating WW2 soldiers. Seriously like right out of a movie. Universal healthcare will destroy medical treatment for everyone. We do NOT have the money for it we are bankrupt from all the other entitlements you leftist have. Math isn't the leftist strong suit agenda is

[apango2000]

Matching a Nobel Prize winner economist and two distinguished and knowledgeable medical doctors against a pair of highly paid lobbyists and a used car salesman was definitely a mismatch.

Having watched many of the Intelligence Squared debates in England, were either side is always represented by the cream of the crop, Im disappointed that the US organizers gave John Stossel a place in this debate..clearly out of his leaguewhat is next the ShamWow guy debating Einstein?

[rickbruner]

The irony is that Krugman doesn't behave like an economist is this debate. There are really 2 Paul Krugman's: the impartial scholar who is worthy of respect and the opinionated idealogue who is just another suspect blow hard. I heard far fewer hard facts from him than I heard from Stossel. Stossel has been studying consumer markets for years. Krugman sits in his ivory tower and fantasizes about Hugo Chavez. He's such an emotional homo kind of like the midget voiced oompla loompa from Canada

[apango2000]

The subject of the debate is weather universal health coverage should be the Federal Government responsibility, as such there are aspects of this question that transcends mere economics.

Krugman, besides making the point that ethics does call for government to sponsor health insurance for all, clearly demonstrates given the highly expensive last resort of emergency care and the advantages of preventive medicine that it also makes economic sense.

[apango2000]

Furthermore, Krugman also makes the point that government run or sponsored health insurance is not only a reality in practically every advanced country in the globe but a fact that already exists successfully in this country, except that is limited to those who have reached retirement age or become disabled.

[rickbruner]

It doesn't exist successfully. The baby boomers will be coming of age next year. Medicare is already a debt ridden program and this will increase astronomically in the coming years. Go look at David Walker's videos (former comptroller general of the U.S.). We cannot afford these entitlement programs in their current format. We can afford them in a different format, which is too long of an explanation for this page.

[apango2000]

Stossel, on the other hand, starts off with a diatribe stating that people love Medicare because its free, a real insult to all of us who have worked all our lives and PAID every single month to have this service available in our senior years and the old GWBush scare tactic of the unfunded liabilities, another insult to the intelligence of anyone who has touched upon economics 101 (or even at high school level)

[Syphalis1]

Monetary Policy - Fail. $ has lost 98% of value in last 90 years.

Foreign Policy - Fail. Involved in 2 wars (longest running in history) with no specific enemy or goal

Budget - Fail. Annual debt now over 10% of GDP and overall Debt almost 70% of GDP.

Heck, even the National Park system blows its budget every year!

I wish the Federal Gov could do good, but it can't. That's why the Constitution exists. to RESTRICT the reach of government. (BTW, UHC is unconstitutional.. ask Pelosi, she agrees)

[paranormal17]

@Syphalis1 Here's a common misconception about the constitution: That it can predict the future. The men who wrote the constitution lived in the 18th century. There was no such thing as healthcare. It's like arguing that someone who played polo in Hungary 150 years ago should be the head referee at a football game. The constitution is definitely not the answer to everything.

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 That's your misconception. The founding father's were way smarter than you give them credit for. The point of the Constitution is to LIMIT the government, not empower them. They saw throughout history that the less power to the people, and the more centralized power, the worse off everyone was.

No such thing as healthcare? Come the fuck on. Doctors were not invented in the last 50 years. My sister is in China studying medicine with it's roots from THOUSANDS of years ago.

[paranormal17]

@Syphalis1 well congratulations on the restaurant. Still, the point of the constitution was to provide a system of checks and balances so that no one person in the government can become to powerful and assure certain civilian rights. However, this does not limit the governments ability to do what it wants to do. It limits the power of any particular section of the government by splitting it up. Judicial, legeslative, and executive. It's a theory borrowed from Voltaire, Montiesqeu and Locke.

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 But it DOES limit what "government wants to do". The point of the Bill of Rights and the subsequent amendments is to LIMIT the government from enacting/enforcing/judicating any laws that would infringe on our God Given rights. Checks and balances are to limit the powers of each branch, but not to ensure "certain civilian rights". A Republican Democracy is designed to, and must have, an educated and engaged populace, for they are the ultimate check; and why our country faces peril

[paranormal17]

@Syphalis1 In the declaration of independence, "Life" is one of three unalienable rights. Leaving millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare without insurance is denying them the right to life.

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 You are drawing terrible inferences. And you are making excuses for a problem you do not comprehend.

You need to understand the root problems with our healthcare. I want accessible healthcare for all, but NOT through the government, for they are the main reason that it is so expensive to begin with. Again, what is insurance for? Does your car insurance cover oil changes? Tune Ups? Gas? Of course not. Insurance is a protection from catastrophic damage.

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 Health insurance used to be like this. It was inexpensive. You didn't need it for basic care. You went to your doctor, you knew how much he would charge you... if it was too high or the care wasn't good, you went to a different doctor. This kept prices low, and quality high. And if you got cancer or a serious injury, your low cost insurance was there if you chose to have it.

Bring on LBJ and Medicare and Caid... I know it sounds great. Take care of the poor/old...

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 But the unintended consequences of these programs were that the free market in medicine was shattered. Government started setting prices for care. Doctors no longer competed based on pricing. This instantly began cost inflation. As the costs climbed, most people could no longer afford out of pocket costs. The insurance companies jumped on the opportunity (created by the government intervention) to add more coverage. This distorted the market further. now when someone went for....

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 a check up, they no longer knew what their doctor was charging, and they didn't care. So doctors continued to raise their prices, since they knew patients would not leave them since they only paid set co-pays and didn't care about the actual costs.

This also had an effect on hospitals. Not that long ago, most hospitals were non-profit, often operated by Churches. They turned no one away, gave quality care, and kept prices low. But as the inflationary effects of GOV intervention...

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 took hold, they were no longer able to sustain themselves. So what happened? Big Conglomerates stepped in and started buying up hospitals. Now we have hospital "chains", further reducing competition, further inflating costs... and people now get turned away.

Now we have politicians saying they can solve this problem by forcing everyone and every business to get insurance, even though it is just buying in to a broken system, and doesn't address any core problems.

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 Freedom of Speech versus Offsides? Come on man. Are you really that dumb?

Then where, exactly do the answers come from? Bureaucrats and Politicians? Name me 1 thing the government does well. One thing that is done in the best, most efficient way possible.

Look, I understand. i was strong Liberal almost my entire life. I always thought if we had the right people in power making the right decisions, we could work towards Utopia. But you can't. The right decisions come...

[Syphalis1]

@paranormal17 from the people, from free markets, from choice. Especially now that I own my own business. I opened my restaurant a year ago when everyone thought I was crazy to do it in this economy in Michigan. But my hard work is making it happen. I have created 12 jobs for my state. Not the government, me. It's the government that makes my life WAY more difficult. I pay 12 different taxes (made no profit last year), have 8 required licenses/inspections, & get hassled by the IRS constantly

[apango2000]

Stossel studies dont impress me. I remember him studying Chiles (my native country) privatized pension system and making statements that were so outrageously false that they were actually funny.

[Aliothemage]

I think John Stossel did fairly well actually. He might not be a Nobel laureate but Krugman actually did horrible in this debate. Stossel definitely out performed him.

[gunsandbullhorns]

Two Doctors and a Pundit on the advocacy side of the argument. Can we trust anything they say?

[FTWyousuck]

Stop hissing through your teeth. Stop lying to the American people!

France and Europe run just dandy and France has nearly Free Universities!

America is richer and larger than both those nations combined and little Cuba shames us hardcore.

Are you really this arrogant in life? Does money really own your soul?

Private HMO's can serve financial slaves forever bc its legal in this country!

NO they are not going to go below 90% in cost, bc that's their primary scheme!

Stop hissing. Stop lying

[avatargrl11]

Your ignorance and stupidity is palpable.

[FTWyousuck]

and you need to get hit by a car and lose both your legs and left eyeball before you get it thru you thick skull...

America is going down if it doesn't change its stupidity and ignorance and arrogance

fuck HMO's and fuck University tuitions :p

[RememberDeath2112]

@FTWyousuck Cuba shames us how? What kind of retard are you? Seriously, what kind of retard are you?

[R0YB0T]

Michael Cannon is full of shit. You would still be able to pick your doctor. Universal health Care is about the payment method. Why have a shitty private company take your money and make tons of profits by not providing health care?

I would much rather the government handle paying the doctors. If I don't like the way they are doing it, I can vote for someone else!

If I don't like what a private company is doing I would have to buy shares in the company.

[sillynanny44]

''if i dont like what a private company is doing i would have to buy shares in the company'' what about looking for another company? no michael cannon is not full of ''shit'' at all..

[lyethian]

The "Against" side won more people from the "undecided" camp. I'd say they won.

The people "for" the motion were pretty much cemented in their views anyway.

[hatemyneighbors]

I found the candidates for universal-health care to be more emotionally driven, and those against are more statically driven. Stossel is right about how are murder, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, car accidents, and etc. are all higher, and that with all these variables Canada's life expectancy rate is only 3 years higher. Don't give me your morals give me the numbers.

[allgoo19]

I would have loved to ask each of the speakers a question, "Who have paid you to come and take a part in the debate and how much?"

[CorporationsSuck]

Well any system you come up with is going to have flaws and people are going to fall through the cracks. If the Canadian system is so bad then why don't canadians vote to change it? I think the majority of americans want a public option. We need to encourage as many people as possible to get their own insurance but there needs to be a safety net for those who fall through the cracks. I know technically there is one...the ER, but the cost get passed on to the insured from those who cannot pay.

[TracyII77]

If they want the public option, why does it have to be forced? I am uninsured by CHOICE. The bill before congress would penalize me for not carrying insurance. For someone who thinks corporations suck, how can you be for a bill that punish's people for not supporting those corporations?

[rnvogel05]

Everyone started clapping when he said 58% but the side against the resolution actually won more people to their side.

[blackcrossunited666]

Michael Cannon..makes a lot of sense..

[VinceP1974]

All anyone has to do is remember the last time they had to interface with the Government in the role of bieng its customer. It sucks. This governemtn cannot do anything right.. especially since these politicians put their entire famility in patronage jobs and then all their friends get jobs. it will be a disaster.

[BringBackHonor]

We don't have private health care right now. Medicare, VA, and employee backed health care is not private. The current Republican plan to allow tax credits for the individual to obtain their own health care would be true private health care. It would be the individual who would have the POWER to determine his or her medical care. People would not be reliant on bureaucrats deciding what care can be obtained. True private care by tax credits would be the envy of the world.

[TiaSaysSo]

They should do the same poll with an all Canadian audience,after playing them this very debate, and see what the before and after results are.

[jvittetoe]

Surprising the 'Against' side won, that was probably the worst panel they could have come up with. Stossel killed it though, but he just doesn't speak enough. I watch all of this just to hear him and he barely spoke up.

Judging by the results, if 58% of these idiots think you have a right to someone else's property than we have a lot of work to do. We must win this intellectual battle. YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY. Get it through your ignorant skulls.

[vidfreak56]

Thats an argument of taxation, and whether or not people believe that your tax money should go to something to support the "general public". Itd be nice if we could all spend money on what we wanted, and that is at least semi-possible, its simply not feasible to the extent that the public wants, or what most want. And there is an inherent hypocrisy in what people say. Most are for the military, and forcing people to pay for that, but nothing to pay for things people want, like HC.

[vidfreak56]

Also realize that even in private insurance people lose. Your money that goes into the system DOES benefit other people more so than yourself. Insurance companies operate on risk bases. Some are denied for different reasons, but people are largely covered w/ profits from the general public. In reality your money is going into anothers pocket, to say, pay for the 100,000 dollar medical bill, where you may only use 400 dollars for a quick doctors visit.

[migkillertwo]

the worst panel possible? Michael Cannon is a fucking genius!

[flynn2008]

John Stossel is a fucking genius.

[rocketman10owen]

god

in universal healthcare you can choose your doctor

i don't know where stossel get his facts from

all he does is lies

[TracyII77]

Not in our country. I've had American government insurance. No, I did not get to choose my doctor. They were all assigned.

[rocketman10owen]

Which country did you come from

[TracyII77]

I'm American. I'm a military brat, who spent half my childhood in Germany. In my teens, the government switched from "directly" providing health care to an HMO, Tricare, because of the massive cost overruns. Tricare works like every other HMO, denying care whenever possible. This is AMERICAN government health care. It is happening now, and it is what you have to look forward to if they take over.

[rocketman10owen]

the guy is talking about canada

and in majority of the countries that has universal healthcare you could choose your own doctor and hospital

[wykydron89]

not in britain, you have to go to a doctor who lives near you...i love in central london, and i had only 3 choices because they have to be in my area

[rocketman10owen]

stossel is talking about canada

in majority of the countries that has universal healthcare you could choose you own doctor and hospital

stossel is clearly lying

second private healthcare you can't choose you own doctor or hospital, you only go to the doctor that is assigned by the insurance company

I am a victim of privatized healthcare, they are the most guilty of denying care, it's called preconditions

[TracyII77]

Believe what you want about Stossel, but I've lived through AMERICAN government care. You are deluding yourself, if you think that you will get better care. I've been denied basic care by our illustrious government because I was living in the wrong area to qualify. In order to see a specialist, I had to "sell" myself to my primary care physician. It took a few years. I am not disagreeing that our current system stinks, but nothing will change w/our government, except cost the public more.

[rocketman10owen]

I grew up in america, and still lives in america

But I went to college in Canada

So I've experience both healthcare systems

The canadian healthcare system is far better than the US system

I wish people just open their eyes and not be so ignorant to dismiss something before trying it themselves and not be victims to lies by the right wing.

[LORDOFWARS8]

When you are young it does not matter which system you are in since you baely go to the hospital ... and actually you get god care in the capitalist system since they have higher motive to serve you ... it is when you are 75 that the real test of the system starts!

[allgoo19]

TracyII77: "Believe what you want about.."

I read all three of your comment and I'm confused.

Are you complaining about the HMO care or the government health care before that?

[TracyII77]

Both. The confusion of this whole debate is that insurance equals care. The reality is that government run systems use the EXACT same model as HMOs. With all of the problems of HMO's it begs the question, why introduce a government option that shares those same problems. And why force people into such a failed system? It does NOTHING to address the real issues of cost. Most of which exist due to government laws and regulations.

[Chainedorlo]

We don't have private healthcare, we have half corporate, half government healthcare. Never read about the doctor strikes in those "great" countries.

[cpiratebee]

Overall this was a really shitty debate. There was nothing new offered here.

[cpiratebee]

We will not get decent coverage in the United States unless health insurance is decoupled from employment.

[ab1tchslap]

those universal health care guys were such arses, they just play on people's emotions instead of presenting actual facts.

[pjlax34]

So those arguing against it changed 10 people's minds and those arguing for it changed 9 people's minds. Very close, but the clear winners are those arguing against it.

[saucy05]

Don't you think you are contradicting yourself by saying it's very close, and then saying one side clearly won?

Anyways, i got a question to people knowledgeable on this subject, why can't we have both private and universal health care together at the same time? If people think the service is inadequate or the wait time is too long, they can go the a private provider and pay for it.

overall great debate, i wish we had this kind of debate televised on national tv.

[chopsky]

If an individual decides he wants to attend a private doctor, he will then essentially be double-paying. Why should I have to pay taxes for a public healthcare system, and then have to pay my own private doctor? Also, private doctors have a hard time competing with government who is offering the service for 'free', so prices are inflated due to an un-free market. Most countries illegalise systems that offer private & public, because the private healthcare ALWAYS trumps the public healthcare.

[GeneralJakass]

@saucy05 Australia's health care

I hate how they limit the debate to just Canada, when Australia's is more friendly.

[ehsanul]

That's the wrong way to think. Because you have to take into account how many there were for and against the motion before the debate. Around 49% were for it before, so obviously there's more of them to be converted away, while there were fewer who were against it who could be persuaded to vote for it at the end.

[sillynanny44]

the 49% were emotionally entrenched... 10% more for people against it. 9% more for people for it. the libertarian free marketeers won when it comes to changing people's minds.

[i10azns]

What's to stop the federal government from shipping doctors in the midwest in mass to Florida?