@Seanomoly, some say that 'no other horse' in history could run 3/4 mile as consistently as Sec was able at 1:09...and from there, maintain his speed. Agree / disagree ?
@Duckworth17 Hard to say... I think there have been many talented horses. Speed isn't the sole mark of greatness -- witness Monarchos who ran I believe the KD virtually the same time as Sec -- not a lot of talk about him...
Secretariat was a great horse, top 5 for sure. But I prefer MOW, DF, and Citation... And the Fleet's trainer said he'd whup Secretariat. Hmmm...
But my favorite horse is KELSO. Now that was a champ.
I enjoy your comments Duckworth17, you've got class.
@seanomoly What's Fleet's trainer gonna say, that Secretariat would "whup" the Fleet?! Affirmed's trainer also said his horse was the greatest ever. So?! MOW beat borderline donkeys as a 3 year old, and actually had to be whipped in the stretch in the Dwyer to edge out the only decent horse he faced - John P. Grier. That 1 1/8 time was still FOUR SECONDS slower than Sec's at the Marlboro, when he won under a hand ride, EASILY beating SIX OLDER G1 CHAMPS and setting the WR.
The only valid ways to judge a horse are A) by its performance against its competition in the years it races, and B) by records the horse sets IN THAT TIME PERIOD.
MOW wins both of those hands down vs. Secretariat. He beat every horse he ever faced (his one loss was a fluke and he beat Upset easily in other races).
Plus MOW set more records and some were never broken, only equaled (the Lawrence).
Comparing horses from different eras based purely on times is AMATEUR HOUR.
Secretariat, like ALL TB's in the 70's was on performance enhancing drugs. Steroids, Lasix, Bute, + modern medical treatment to stay sound, better diet, easier travel from race to race.
Given modern conditions MOW would have destroyed Sec, period.
When Sec was "drug tested" after the races the tests were only for a few banned substances. Can you name them, cause I can.
NFL tests players for "drugs." You think they're clean? Dream on...
Secretariat beat all of MOW's times with EASE, even at 1 1/8 mile, when MOW was taken to the limit in the Dwyer to beat out Grier. Sec won his 1 1/8 in the Marlboro in a romp beating out older champs WITH EASE. The only reason he was placed 2nd in the BH 100 is because some dummy MOW fan on the panel voted him at No.14!! Bill Nack was going to do the same to Man o' War just to even out the score which would place Sec at the top - but wisely decided against it. One idiot in the panel was enough!
@SECby31 Man o war is amazing ! you have no respect ! And then Ruffian beat Big Reds 1 1/8 so did Zenyatta how sad! You should get new hobbie cause you have no respert for anyone and other horses! And Phar Lap and Man O War are better then him GET OVER IT!
@SECby31 How old are you 5 !? Kid get a life and learn before starting shit. Man o war had no competition and has better records and they still stand its sad how you dont response to my messages !
omg... you cant compare two horses that weren't even in the same time zone! seriously its annoying hearing this and that. BOTTOM LINE BOTH WERE AMAZING AND GREAT HORSES.
I read this from another poster re: Secretariat, setbacks did come to him but he was gallant even in defeat & always giving his best. Charles Hatton, turf writer who coined the phrase TC, also Hall of Fame Trainer Hollie Hughes, had actually seen the previous incarnation of equine perfection, the great Man O' War, and he said there were no comparison.
Continuation: These men had seen it all, and they were both stunned by this chestnut colt born on 3/30/70, not only were they sure that he was the best they'd ever seen, they were sure that he was the best that anyone had seen.
how would you know if man o war didnt have stamina you never saw him race you dumbass man o' had speed and stamina he ran with ease he was like eclips and secretariat is nothing to man o war would kill him easily man o war won with ease every race his owner never wanted him to go all out.
@liljkm12 Man o' War was RIDDEN ALL OUT in the Dwyer, and was actually WHIPPED in the stretch to fight off John P. Grier. He set a 6 furlong fraction of 1:09 2/5 in that race, which was a WR at the time, and still considered world class today. Secretariat also ran the first 6f in 1:09 2/5 at the Marlboro, but his greater stamina enabled him to keep going through the race and easily clock almost 4 seconds faster than Man o' War over the 1 1/8 mile distance. Do some reading.
@BigPetrov Spot on my man! The Dwyer/Marlboro comparison (1 1/8 mile) shows two things: that the tracks were not much slower in the '20s (as witness MOW's 6f clocking of 1:09 2/5 in the Dwyer - as fast as Sec for 6f in the Marlboro), and that Sec was clearly the superior horse. Sec won the Marlboro in a romp, whereas MOW was ridden hard and whipped in the stretch to fight off Grier, and was still almost 4 seconds slower! Some dummy on here brought up MOW's 100 L win against a donkey!!
@SECby31 Actually the track were a lot slower you STILL need to get your facts right, lady. Man O' War was better, and he did win by 100 lengths but trust me it was with a thoroughbred. Man O' War was never running at his full speed. The jockey always had his rein's pulled back behind his head and the only time they let him run full out was when he was turned around at the rope ,because there were not any starting gates, and they were already at the first turn. That was not fair!
@SECby31 Also sure I do not blame Secretariat for losing the race where he had an abscess ,but what is his excuse for the other two races he lost! You still need to get your FACTS right! Also remember who is the # 1 horse of all times on all the REAL lists and who is 2nd! GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!! SERIOUSLY PEOPLE! Maybe you guys would think he was better if he was in a more recent time then Secretariat. Secretariat did race in a race called the Man O' War Stakes.
@SECby31 You can not deny that facts are not true, so shut up because just seriously remember that Man O' War is the #1 horse on EVERY REAL list of the best race horses of ALL time! No matter what you say it will not be able to change facts or history. What else could you do now! You have nothing else on me then because the facts are the facts. You still can not change anything about that.
This would brake the current world record set by the great Spectacular Bid as a four year old by a full second. Again, this doesn't acount for shoes, nutrition, transportation, starting gates, etc. It's all opinion, but it seems to me Secretariat is just one more great horse breathing Red's dust.
@Phanatic24601 You forgot to mention that MOW carried 8lbs less than Sec in their 1 and 1 1/2 mile races, the latter still crushing MOW's times at those distances. How much slower were the tracks back in the '20s? - I'm guessing not THAT much. Also, shoes were switched to aluminium in the '40s, not to increase speed, but to relieve pressure on a horse's legs. Lastly, Sec set his 1:59 in a 12f race, with another 1/4 mile to go. He beats MOW in both speed AND stamina, in any era.
@rcschumann I used the 1:59 for Secretariat because it was his fastest time for a mile and a quarter. If you would rather have me use his Kentucky Derby time of 1:59 2/5, Man o' War beats him by even more. Track managers will tell you tracks are 2-3 seconds faster than they were in the 20's. Check out the times for the Whitney before and after their track reinovation in 1954 if you don't believe me. Yes, shoes were switched to relieve stress (another advantage), but they were also faster.
@Phanatic24601 Now that I've corrected your 1 1/16 "mistake", I can continue: MOW raced an average of 1.5 horses as a 3 yr old - what a joke! He never had to negotiate large fields the way Sec did, who used his versatility to win in so many different ways, still clocking much faster times than a horse who hardly faced any obstacles at all. MOW was driven hard in the Dwyer to fight off Grier, but was still almost 4 seconds slower than Sec at 9f carrying the same weight (126 pds).
@rcschumann Sorry about the times mistake. But, once again, if you factor in tracks, Man o' War's is faster, and Man o' War was carrying MUCH more weight. As a two year old, Man o' War faced fields as large as Secretariat's. As a three year old, everyone was too afraid to race him. Hardly faced any obstacles at all??? Man o' War carried 138 pounds as a three year old!!! This is unheard of today. Man o' War carried more as a two year old than Secretariat did as a three year old.
@rcschumann In the Dwyer, Man o' War broke from a wet spot on the track and fell to his knees at the start. This is not some legend; it's in the Dorothy Ours biography. Any other horse would have been out of the race, but Man o' War still came back and beat an excellent horse carrying 18 fewer pounds. That's a great horse. Secretariat was an incredible horse as well, but, in my opinion, Man o' War was better.
@Phanatic24601 To continue (a): again, tracks could not have been that much slower in the '20s, because Secretariat didn't just beat MOW's times, he absolutely crushed them. I never read anywhere that MOW almost fell in the Dwyer - he battled in the stretch with Grier and clocked a 1:49.4 for 1 1/8, carrying 126 pds. Sec, also carrying 126 pds, clocked 1:45.2 for his 1 1/8 (WR), easily winning in a romp against older G1 champs at the Marlboro Cup. cont...
@rcschumann Man o' War almost falling is in the Dorothy Ours book, which is endorsed by Joe Palmer and Laura Hillenbrand. Good luck finding any better evidence than that. Anything less than a champian would have been out of the race, but Man o' War still came back to beat an excellent stakes winner with a significant weight advantage. Yes, Dr. Fager and others carried more than Man o' War, but they did it at four, which is when a horse reaches its peak ability.
@rcschumann Find me one other horse that carried 138 pounds as a two year old. I've given you multiple sources of how tracks are at least 2-3 seconds faster than they were in the 20's, including the track management. Think of all the advantages Secretariat had that Man o' War didn't-tracks, shoes, nutrition, starting gates, etc.-and I'm surprised his times aren't faster. You're going to need actual proof rather than just your opinion that tracks aren't faster.
@rcschumann Yes, there have been many amazing horses through the years, including Dr. Fager, Phar Lap, Spectacular Bid, etc. that may have given Secretariat or Man o' War a run for their money, but they all accomplished their greatest feats as 4 year olds. I can't even imagine what either of them could have acheived if they would have raced at four. I have nothing but the greatest love and respect for both of the "Big Reds"
@Phanatic24601 It seems Kummer embellished what happened to MOW at the start of the Dwyer (as Riddle often did with his horse), and Ours did the same. If MOW had almost fallen, how on earth did he pass Grier at the 1/4 pole, and later clock a 6f fraction of 1:09 2/5 (WR at the time)? That's as fast a 6f as Sec at the MC (1 1/8), and the latter had a decent start. Also, the swift fractions MOW set in the Dwyer showed that the tracks of the '20s were not much slower at all.
@rcschumann I agree with your thoughts about the Dwyer. There's no way Man o' War would have set the 1/4 and 6 furlong fractions he did if he had almost fallen at the start. I mean these are world class clockings, even on today's tracks, and like you said, his 6f was as fast as Secretariat's at MC. The thing is Man o' War didn't have Sec's stamina, and so couldn't maintain these fractions till the end of the Dwyer, whereas Secretariat won his 1 1/8 with ease, almost 4 secs faster.
@Phanatic24601 To continue (b): I mentioned before that MOW carried much less weight than Sec in their 1 and 1 1/2 mile races, but the latter still beat his times by quite a margin. You mention the great weights MOW carried. Dr. Fager carried more weight at 4 (immense weights), and won like he wasn't carrying anything at all. He's the only horse I would put next to Sec in raw power and natural talent (up to a mile - over that Sec's the best). I don't doubt MOW's greatness though.
@rcschumann Notice long ago some of the giggling of Mow "getting up off his knees".....the doubts, cynicism, and calling it a bunch of B.S. Unusual thing is knowing how big the turnouts were in the country to see him in 1920. Big crowds and 180,000 people were common.
That's the context of how Our's book is written....with corroborating evidence. To cast doubt (not you) on unusual things he did....at races with gigantic turnouts is masked insult.
@Duckworth17 I appreciate your thoughts regarding the Ours book. I never read it, but I have read other writings regarding the Dwyer race, and there's no mention of MOW falling to his knees. I found that section of the Ours book on the Internet - if MOW did stumble, it couldn't have been that bad, as he caught up to and then slightly passed Grier quite quickly, setting a good 1/4 fraction of 0:23 2/5 and a 6f in 1:09 2/5 (WR) - as fast as Sec at the Marlboro Cup for 6f. cont...
@Duckworth17 To continue: Kummer actually had to use the whip as Grier edged in front in the final furlong, with MOW finishing in 1:49 1/5 - a WR at the time. Turcotte never touched Sec at the Marlboro Cup over the same distance of 1 1/8 miles and carrying the same weight of 126 pds. He clocked 1:45 2/5 (around 19 lengths faster than MOW), winning it from the outside and beating six older champions. Sec did "unusual things" in much larger fields and against much tougher rivals.
@rcschumann Btw, Man o' War also raced more times in the same time span than Secretariat, and yet the excuse for his loss in the Woodward is "he was too tired from racing four times in two months." Man o' War raced five times in two months TWICE as a TWO YEAR OLD. Man o' War raced more, and carried more weight. Oh, and he was also transported in crappy trains compared to the planes of Secretariat's day.
@Phanatic24601 Actually the reason for Secretariat's loss in the Woodward was that he was thrown in practically at the last minute while preparing for the MOW Stakes on grass A WEEK LATER (bad management) - not because he was "tired". He subbed for RR who didn't like the slop. He was not prepared, and you an imagine the shock of suddenly switching from grass to dirt/slop. A week later at the MOW Stakes he blasted a field of older turf champs and set the track record. cont...
@rcschumann William H.P. Robertson (racing historian) says aluminum shoes are faster. If you want to talk about weight, let's compare at 1 1/16 miles. Man o' War (1:44.8) carried 138 pounds to Secretariat's(1:45.4)124 and still ran almost a second faster, without accounting for track conditions and other factors. Man o' War's 1 1/2 mile race contained some of his slowest fractions. Why? Because he wasn't even trying, just like in all of his races, and yet he still smashed more records.
@Phanatic24601 You got the distances and times all wrong. Sec ran his 1 1/16 in 1:42.8 (2 seconds faster than MOW). It was his 1 1/8 that was in 1:45.4 (MOW clocked a 1:49.2 at this distance) - do some research.
That has Secretariat leading by two lengths, without accounting for shoes, nutrition, medicine, transportation, and starting gates. It also needs to be considered that Man o' War was restrained through the length of the stretch. Suposing he wasn't, reporters of the time thought he could have lowered his time by a full second, making his modern time 1:58 2/5. However, one groom said "Red could have run it in 1:59 that day." Modernizing his time would mean 1:56 4/5, (under 129 pounds)
Let's take one distance to compare Man o' War and Secretariat: 1 1/4 miles. Secretariat: 1:59 (in the Belmont Stakes) Man o' War: 2:01 4/5 (in the Travers Stakes) Tracks improved one quarter second per quarter mile from Man o' War to Secretariat's time, according to Walter Farley, making Man o' War's time 1:59 3/5. Also, according to Dorothy Ours, four pounds was equivalent to about a length, and Man o' War carried 4 more pounds than Secretariat, making his time 1:59 2/5.
Take every comment here (good bad and bizarre ) - one of the most intelligent was citing the risks taken at Belmont with Sec...which heretofore was a thing carefully avoided with Citation and Mow by contrast.
Slightest misstep and the consequences to the horse are staggering.. Luckily, it did not happen.
@Duckworth17 I don't believe there were any "risks taken" with Secretariat at Belmont - Turcotte simply let him run his race. That's like saying "risks" were taken when Sec made that frightening move round the tight 1st turn at Pimlico. Ronnie knew, Sec's trainer knew, that this horse was as strong as an ox, and the fact that he looked like he could go another mile afterwards, showed that he wasn't close to full exertion - scary as that sounds. cont...
@Duckworth17 To continue: And "missteps" can happen at anytime in a horse race, not just when a horse is decimating a field by 30 lengths. Check out Rewilding who fell this year at the G1 King George VI on turf, and had to be put down after breaking his leg. Dr. Fager could also have had a "misstep" when he exploded in the stretch and set the 1 mile record.
Well, these two aren't going to race, ever. So no one will ever know what would happen if they did.
I'll take the original Big Red. Who raced clean without drugs, without planes, without the kid weights of the 70's, and dominated.
Not only is MOW the best of the century, he's the most important of the century. For setting the standard for WHAT IS POSSIBLE, and breeding champions.
@seanomoly Of course MOW "dominated" - he raced an average of 1.5 horses as a 3 yr old (borderline barn ponies), and actually carried less weight than Secretariat in their 1 and 1 1/2 mile races. Sec didn't just beat his times in these races, he crushed them. Again, if Sec was on the juice he wouldn't need those strenuous workouts that Lauren inflicted on him before each race - he could just hang out in his barn until race day, and let the drugs do their thing. This horse was just a freak.
Anabolic steroids cause enlarged hearts in humans and test animals.
Some people get upset if you suggest Secretariat was on steroids. When they autopsied Secretariat, his heart weighed 22lbs. The next largest heart they ever found was 18lbs. The horse had a massive heart, which allowed it to pump large volumes of blood through it's muscles, that's what made it great.
The horse had a massive heart, which allowed it to pump large volumes of blood through it's muscles, that's what made it great.
@ALLinALLgood Lucien Laurin imposed strenuous workouts on his colt before every race - legendary workouts he wouldn't need if he was on the juice, and that would ruin any other horse. When he didn't respond to those drilling sessions, such as before the Whitney when he was ill with a fever, he lost. Before the Preakness he drilled 5f in 0:57.4. Later at Pimlico he won by 3 lengths, setting a track record. His enlarged heart is inherited from his dam's side on the X chromosome.
Secretariat is the greatest ever. No horse on earth would have lived with him at the Belmont. But that wasn't his only great race, as witness his monster last-to-first round the tight first turn at Pimlico - I have never witnessed acceleration like that, passing horses like they were walking! His stride was the biggest I have ever seen (bigger than MOW), and his action was smooth as silk. The best.
@SECby31 Secretariat's stride was 4 feet shorter than Man O' War's stride. Get your facts right. What is the most lengths Secretariat had won by, like 31 lengths and Man O' War won a race by 100 lengths. Plus Man O' War is better because you have to think about the fact that they were in way different times and when Secretariat was racing the tracks were a lot better when Secretariat was around. Plus they called Man O' War horse of the "CENTURY" and Secretariat was horse of the "YEAR".
The American arrogance and ignorance is famose . If a horse wins in USA, without ever leaving his country, , it automatically becomes the best in history. Out of Your Truman Show , out the Hollywood movies , in the real world, everyone knows ..the best horse ever (gallop) is the Italian " RIBOT ", the best trotter ever is Italian " VARENNE " the best jockey ever is the Italian " FRANKIE DETTORI." All people can check these names on internet and make an assessment of the results.
I think Man O' War is better because you have to think about the fact that they were in way different times and when Secretariat was racing the tracks were better and a lot of things were better about the tracks and everything. Also they called Man O' War horse of the "CENTURY" and Secretariat was horse of the "YEAR".
@BigPetrov Yes, would have been interesting to see Sec take on Dr Fager and Ruffian at shorter distances (up to a mile). My own instinct is he had very comparable top-line speed to those two, just his Zenyatta-like habit of slowly strolling out of the gates would probably be a too generous tactic to always catch those pair by the mile post. That said, 9 times out of 10 he would have passed them both by the 1 1/8 post and only increased that gap the longer the race.
@eckythimble I agree that had Turcotte been at the helm he probably would have run Secretariat through the wire, being his last race and all - though it's customary for a jockey to shut a horse down when a clear lead has been reached. Regarding match-ups with Fager and Ruffian under 8f, he would need a good start (like Belmont) and his raw power would make it interesting. At 8f, his pedigree, stamina and that giant, piston-like 110° stride should spell success for the Bold Ruler colt.
@BigPetrov Sec would like to take Private Smiles to start in the gate next to him, as that horse started even slower than Sec, forcing Sec to go forward to avoid a collision and into history. I tend to think the 4yr old Dr Fager might have been tricky for even Sec to reel in by the 8f pole, but the full grown 4yr old Sec we never saw race probably had him covered and would have been a real threat for the mile WR. From 10f onwards it would be all over anyway in favour of the 3yr old Sec.
Well, these two aren't going to race, ever. So no one will ever know what would happen if they did. It's just an opinion.
I'll take the original Big Red. Who raced clean without drugs, without planes, without the kid weights of the 70's, and dominated.
Not only is MOW the best of the century, he's the most important of the century. For setting the standard for WHAT IS POSSIBLE, and for breeding champions.
Since then Simply Majestic took a mere 0.2 secs off his 1 1/8 time on a fast west coast track and the 4yr old Spectacular Bid followed a rabbit and ran clearly tighter turns on another fast west coast track than 3yr old Sec's Marlboro to equal his 1 1/4 DRF timed world record. In short, a 3yr old Sec running on slower east coast tracks has clear claims to be regarded as the fastest/greatest horse in history over 1 1/8 to 1 5/8 miles. (cont')
@evyn....you indicate you know have professional knowledge of T horse racing. Great. And you indicate you have better technical than than I. Great. But why is it necessary for you to disparage people (like me) who love Secretariat & consider his accomplishments The Greatest? Perhaps Sec WAS the Greatest! Perhaps 'Sec groupies' (ur words, not mine) are correct. Just because he is Loved by MANY, doesn't mean he is not the real Thing!
@nin12dog I'm sorry if I've been rude. I love Secretariat, and think he MIGHT have been the best horse of all time. But I don't like the misinformation people throw out there and pass off as the truth.
But regardless you are right, he was the Real Deal.
@evyn10014 No prob, and thanks for the explanation - i'm not a professional - I saw Sec's Belmont when I was a teen. I still remember it! These horses are so compelling and fascinating!
@ evyn - However, IMHO, your idea that Sec had a huge margin of victory due to lack of competion makes no sense. It seems Secretariat didn't know or care about the competion - this didn't seem to enter Sec's head. He simply kept running very very FAST. So it was a 'fast track'? Great. This doesn't change the FACT Secretariat ACCELERATED as he completed Belmont - even though he didn't NEED TO. He chose to accelerate (hand ride), and had the physical gifts to do so.
@nin12dog This would be an example of misinformation... Sec ran negative splits in the KD, not the Belmont. In the Belmont at the end he was slowing down -- his "competition" was just slowing down more than him, therefore his margin of victory was growing.
re: margin. A horse's time shows what they were capable of on that track that day. Margin of victory shows what their competition was capable of. So the other horse's pitiful showing has everything to do with the "margin" of Sec's victory.
@evyn - re: "Secretariat's "time" in the Belmont was a combination of him having the run of his life and a perfect track. His "margin of victory" is due to lousy competition." I think you're wrong. [Note - I would never disparage ANY OTHER horse, as many are extraordinary & had brilliant careers]. I, like MANY, simply believe Secretariat was THE GREATEST - I never saw MOW race. I know MOW is considered the 'Secretariat' of his generation - a Phenomenon .
@evyn10014 of course hes much better at playing Lala! but he did extremely well in Secretariat! most people think he didnt do a good job because they are used to seeing him as Lala which is a completely different character...
@evyn10014 I think you feel the same way about Secretariat that I feel about Seabiscuit. I absolutely can't stand the latter (not nice to say about an animal, I know!), and the film made about him contributed to this dislike. They portrayed War Admiral, clearly the superior horse, as some sort of monster in that film, and the hype surrounding Biscuit since the movie is plain ridiculous. So I can understand your dislike of Secretariat, with all the hype surrounding him - only he's a true great.
@BigPetrov That's an interesting observation, especially about the Seabiscuit movie (I agree). I'm actually a big Secretariat fan, I've just gotten jaded by the "Secretariat walks on water" crew (not you).
@BigPetrov Times are generally irrelevant because of track Variance. I'm more impressed by horses consistently winning throughout their careers -- which is why MOW is the #1 horse among serious fans.
And the behavior you describe of Secretariat -- surging past other horses with little or no coaxing, weaving through heavy traffic, can describe any number of champions. Both Goldikova and Sea the Stars have won so many races when they seemed trapped then sprinted out of nowhere.
@SunnyDaysRFun I never said you said that MOW was faster then Sec. I said despite the fact that MOW is slower than Sec. is not a determining factor in you liking MOW. FYI Sec. track times beat MOW's. Not even one of MOW track times beat Sec. Sec. holds the record.
@evyn10014 I think that person was referring to Secretariat's clocking (by DRF) of 2:37 4/5 for 1 5/8 at the Belmont, pulling up past the wire after he set the 1 1/2 mile record! Secretariat's official clocking of 2:41 4/5 at the CIS in Toronto was done on the kind of soft, damp turf that you would find on racecourses in the UK. This horse still holds the margin-of-victory record for that race. Anyway, MOW was certainly magnificent in setting his WR 1 5/8 that day at the Belmont track.
@BigPetrov Agreed, his run out time was phenomenal. I guess that's the allure of racing -- there's no definitive answer as to which horse is the greatest. But both Sec and MOW certainly made strong cases for themselves.
Yes, Sec's turf run was wet and nasty. But he did set a TR that day so he ran well. MOW ran the LR without Kummer carrying a whip, so I'm guessing he could have ran it a good 2 seconds faster if pushed, which would have been truly extraordinary.
@evyn10014 Thanks! Your comments are interesting too. Regarding the CIS, Secretariat didn't set a TR that day - The Axe II had the fastest time at 2:41 flat (1963), until it was broken by the great Dahlia in 1974 with a time of 2:40 flat. I believe Secretariat ran against a decent headwind that day, besides the damp, wet conditions.
@BigPetrov I think what people forget in the CIS is that Sec had a different jockey that day, who let him saunter from a devastating 12 length lead at the turn to "just" a 6 1/2 length win at the post. Were the other horses out staying Sec down the stretch? I doubt it. Video shows Maples clearly reigning Sec in, whereas Turcotte (with exception of Preakness) was accustomed to urging Sec on to the line - just to see what he could do - and hence the unofficial world records past the post.
@evyn10014 In the following races sec. time was better then MOW. 1 mile, 1 1/16, 1 1/8, 1 3/8, 1 3/16, 1 1/4, 1 3/8, 1 1/2, 1 5/8. You claim at the LR that MOW's time was faster the Sec.? Well soldier boy, Sec.'s fastest time in that race beat MOW by 15% LENGTHS. See angelfire . com/jazz/nutbush/
@SunnyDaysRFun Ruffian killed all of secretariats times from 5 1/2 furlongs-6 furlongs, and she ran a faster quater in her 1 1/2mile race than secretariat did in his, ruffian was in the lead by 6 lengths in her race within 15 seconds! then the jockey choked her... MANY people say if she had been allowed to run she would have beaten secretariats record
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Ruffian never "killed" Secretariat's 2 yr old sprint times, but she did beat them. She was one heck of racemare for sure - possibly the greatest filly ever. However what Secretariat achieved as a juvenile was enough for him to become Horse of the Year - the first ever as a 2 yr old. Check out his Hopeful Stakes, when he makes the most explosive last-to-first moves you'll ever see. Older horses wish they could do that. Of course at 3, he showed what he could do at his best.
@RuffianQueenOfRacing By "explosive" I meant the speed with which he made that move, and the short distance it took him to reach the lead - it left his own jockey stunned. Silky Sullivan's win from way far back at the SA Derby was very impressive, but was done gradually over the course of the race. Also, by "killed", do you mean Ruffian beat Secretariat's juvenile sprint times by 4 seconds?
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Yes, there are many forms of "explosive". Check out 2 yr old Arazi at the Breeders Cup Juvenile, or Lammtarra at the Epsom Derby. Also check out this vid on YT: "Broad Appeal Unbelievable Race - came from behind" - insane!!
@evyn10014 For some reason I thought Secretariat was the first 2 year old to receive the HOY award - my mistake. Regarding the competition at Belmont, My Gallant was a G1 winner, with a win over Forego and Our Native (major stakes winner himself) under his belt. Of course, the fields Secretariat faced at the Derby and Preakness were tougher, with the former including Forego, Our Native, Sham and other stakes winners...I guess owners had had enough of Big Red by Belmont time! cont...
@evyn10014 To continue: Secretariat was in fact setting the WR for every quarter at Belmont (except 1st). Yes, he was slowing down slightly in the stretch (otherwise he WAS a machine!), but he did set the record for that final 1/4 as well. To go back to competition, the fields he faced at the MC, MOW, CIS included champion older horses. I'm wondering why you fail to mention the 5 Eclipse awards Secretariat received. Your factual knowledge is better than mine - did any other horse equal that?
@BigPetrov Yeah, II'm not sure Sec needs me to beat the drum for him, he already has plenty of support. Off the top of my head I don't know what other horses have more Eclipse awards than Sec except Kelso -- who has 5 HOY and 1 Champion Older Horse Eclipse award, so I believe he'd have 6...
So what do you think of the European scene these days? Who do you like? And where would you put Sea the Stars, etc. in comparison to America's greats? Just curious, not to start an argument.
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Ruffian was choked by her jockey? I also heard that Ruffian gave a sudden muscle twitch that slowed her down. What is the truth? Consider this, what good jocky in his right mind would hold a horse back from winning, one who was paid off? There is no good factual reason to declare why Ruffian slowed down. Furthermore in a 1 1/2 mile race it matters not who ran the first quarter mile faster! Sec. is the KING of fast horses. Crossing the finish line is what counts!!
vasquez was told to hold by ruffians trainer to hold ruffian until equal change moved up to challenge her, but equal change didnt get within a length before ruffian started to speed up a little again! Frank whitely never cared about track records, he cared about his horse coming home safely. i dont know where you get that she had a miscle twitch, since she was bucking and playing after the finish line!
@RuffianQueenOfRacing You go ahead and place your bets on a horse that 'comes home safely' while I place my bet on the horse that will WIN the race. If Ruffian was held back for its safety, then it ran its best time without getting killed, Sec. ran without needing to be held back for its safety and scores a winning time against Ruffian. You promote Ruffian as a faster horse but has to be held back so it won't hurt itself LOL shezzz, maybe Ruffian shouldn't be out on the track!!
@SunnyDaysRFun Spend much time around racing there buddy? ALL GOOD TRAINERS hold their horses back to preserve them for future races. The racing season is kinda like the NFL season -- it's long and horses get banged up. Thoroughbreds are notoriously injury prone -- so you want to do as little as possible while winning.
Sec's Belmont run was actually very risky -- he could have easily had a career ending injury. One stumble at that speed and it's all over. That's what happened to Count Fleet.
@SunnyDaysRFun WOW you seriously are one dumb idiot! ruffian was held back because frank whitely didnt want her being hit with the whip or pushed to hard! she was held back in the coaching club american oaks because frank wanted ruffian to know what it was like to be challenged for the lead because she was going to be entered in some colts races after that! are you THAT stupid!?
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Ruffian's track record is less then Sec. because Ruffian couldn't be hit with the whip or pushed to hard? But Sec. could be pushed hard and hit with the whip (if that's what happen) and in so doing wins the race? Ha ha ha ha ha, shezzzzz. Poor baby Ruffian, keep the horse off the track or only race her in powder puff races. LOL
@SunnyDaysRFun hmm, yes i can cleary see that you are an idiot and was clearly dropped on your head when you were a baby.... OH WAIT you are a baby =O
Ruffian was a racehorse that raced in races without the whip, setting track record and stakes record in all of the races she ran under a hand ride, i didnt see secretariat win his 1st race by 15 lengths under a hand ride in the process running the fastest time by a 2 year old on dirt ever! as i recall, secretariat didnt even win his 1st race!
@RuffianQueenOfRacing You can't argue with the facts. Show me one track time where Ruffian time is greater than Sec. U CAN'T. Show me in all the races where Ruffian ran at 39mph like Sec. did, U CAN'T. Show me in any race where Ruffian was the last horse by the first turn and won the race like sec. did making a new track record, U CAN'T. What u CAN do is name call me and THATS ALL. Ruffian is a good horse, but not compared to Sec. & U cant handle de truth!!
@SunnyDaysRFun LOL shall i bring out the times? you want times that ruffian had faster than secretariat... OKAY! ON DIRT
5 1/2 furlong: Ruffian 1:02.80 under a hand ride, Secretariat didnt even place in a 5 1/2 furlong race, 6 furlong: Ruffian 1:08.60 under a hand ride, secretariat 1:10.60 under the whip, 7 furlong, Ruffian 1:21.20 under a hand ride, secretariat 1:23.20 under the whip, even his first 1 1/8 was disgusting! the only 2 distances he is really better at are 1 1/8 and 1 1/2 m!
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Where do you get your facts from?! SEC'S official 6f is 1:09 4/5, not 1:10.60!! "Under the whip"?! SEC was hardly shown the "whip" in his life - watch all his TC races. He was whipped twice at the KD and that was it. Watch the EASE with which he won the Marlboro Cup, beating older champs under a hand ride. His 1 1/8 is 1:45 2/5 - what's Ruffian's? And no he wasn't only better at 9 and 12f. He was faster at 8 and 10f as well. Ruffian was a faster sprinter at 2 - THAT'S IT.
@eckythimble Thanks for pointing that out. That 6f clocking at the Gotham was impressive considering he had a lousy start as he bumped the gate on his way out, and finished with a 1:33 2/5 for the mile, beating the mighty Dr. Fager's time at that race by almost 2 seconds.
@BigPetrov That's interesting that Sec beat one of Dr. Fager's mile times. Generally though I think Sec would neeed 1 1/8 miles to be sure of reeling in Dr. Fager as Fager was a truly great sprinter.
CONTINUED, the only races that secretariat are faster than ruffian in are the 1 mile, 1 1/8 and the 1 1/2 mile, as for the 5 1/2 furlong, 6 furlong and 7 furlong Ruffian was faster! without being pushed, still setting 3 track records at 3 different tracks, and setting new stakes records in all the 8 stakes races she ran, Ruffian was undefeated, secretariat wasnt, secretariat didnt win his 1st race, Ruffian did, by 15 lengths and in track record time, under a hand ride
@RuffianQueenOfRacing So you're saying the only races Secretariat was faster than Ruffian at were all the "Classic Distances" a mile and over that pretty much define a horse's legacy... Interesting comment.
CONTINUED, the only races that secretariat are faster than ruffian in are the 1 mile, 1 1/8 and the 1 1/2 mile, as for the 5 1/2 furlong, 6 furlong and 7 furlong Ruffian was faster! without being pushed, still setting 3 track records at 3 different tracks, and setting new stakes records in all the 8 stakes races she ran, Ruffian was undefeated, secretariat wasnt, secretariat didnt win his 1st race, Ruffian did, by 15 lengths and in track record time, under a hand ride
Secretariat was faster.Broke man-A war 's records.Maybe man -a -war was a better stud.I guess the money is really what counts.who made the most money for their owners?(adjusted for inflation)
@funnyhorsey wrong - we saw everything he had against Sir Barton - that was his greatest and toughest race of his career and he di well to win by 6 lengths; But, and its a big one, he still is 4 seconds slower than Sec in the 1.5 miles - that's 20 lengths behind and even if we are half wrong, Sec still wins by 10
@80cathryn You know nothing about Man o War. His race against Sir Barton was won in a gallop, wasn't even a challenge. His toughest race was the Dwyer, which he won. MOW also ran faster than Sec at a 1 5/8ths. He also set records that stood longer than Secretariat's, and was consistently great. He was the superior horse.
@evyn10014 And Sec ran a faster 6f, mile, 1 1/4, 1 1/8, and 1 1/2 - actually, saying he ran faster would be like saying Usain Bolt ran "faster" than Sebastian Coe. So that makes SEC the "superior horse". Also, I thought your thick head grasped the fact that Sec ran his 1 5/8 on THICK, WET, DAMP Canadian grass, in frigid, windy weather, as opposed to MOW's clocking on HARD, DRY DIRT. Lets go by Sec's unofficial 1 5/8 clocking on the same track (Belmont), when he AGAIN buried MOW. DUNCE!
@rcschumann You're an idiot, comparing times. They don't equate. Winning equates. Citation at 3, 19 out of 20. MOW at 3 -- perfect. Secretariat after the TC, barely above .500.
Take Secretariat back to 1920, no PED's, no lux flights to cart him around -- and he would get his ass kicked sideways by MOW. Same if he faced Citation or Count Fleet in their day. He's overrated.
Speed wise, many faster horses than both since then. Doesn't matter. Winning over a career matters.
@evyn10014 Winning records mean something in context - cant count a win by 100 lengths a race that should have been run. comments on race notes for MOW will say things like eased up but it could also mean the horse was running out of gas. Like the rider eased up so the horse could finish. bad argument anyway. I looked it up. Sec has two SPEED records at distance as the longest standing to date - 38 years and one of them not one horse has come within 2 seconds of touching.
@80cathryn If you want to talk winning in context, many horses have fought tougher opposition than Secretariat. Let me name a few: Fager vs. Damascus, Affirmed vs. Alydar. If you dig a little deeper you'll find MOW had records that stood for far longer than 38 years.
You're just a bandwagon Secretariat fan who doesn't know the facts about the many other great horses.
@evyn10014 at the start and keeping it against the borderline barn ponies he faced. Sec won circling the field, plowing through between horses, on the lead, from the back. He beat older champions, and did it in a romp, while his rivals were being whipped senseless. This is the superior horse. He always set a record after a loss at 3, showing of what he was capable when healthy and running close to his peak. You keep mentioning Sec's "broken" records, but ignore the fact that each track...
@rcschumann evyn10014 - Secretariat had superior speed and time for each marker on the race track fro 6 furlongs to the mile and 5/8's. in some cases 4 seconds faster. MOW i believe is greatest of the first half century and second all time to Secretariat who flat out smoked his competition which were bigger fields and, lest we forget the Belmont 2:24 is a 10-20 length blowout against any horse in history. no horse has done better than 2:26. And Sec was accelerating away in the stretch.
@80cathryn Cathryn, I know this is hard to understand -- look at Sec's Belmont splits -- he was slowing down at the end, not speeding up. He only ran a negative split in one race -- I asked you to name it you didn't -- guess you don't know your horse that well.
Secretariat's competition in the Belmont was pitiful after Sham broke down. You put any top horse in there with him and there's NO BLOWOUT.
Belmont 73 was a lightning fast track. You gonna compare to times on slower tracks? Rookie.
@rcschumann You're a bandwagon rookie. Lots of the "Greats" set records every time they stepped on a track. Horses you don't even hear about -- like SWAPS, who broke records every time he was healthy, at all different distances. Secretariat is one of the 5 best, not the best. Get over it.
@evyn10014 You said somewhere (which I can't find among the 1,000 messages here) "pullup times don't mean anything. Only official times count". Actually I think in some ways it's even more impressive that Sec was timed by DRF running 4+ lengths faster than the world records of Riva Ridge, Demi's Bret, Swaps, etc before and after the finish post - just because he could. He didn't know it was disrespectful to thrash all then world record holders from 1 1/8 to 1 5/8 miles. (cont)
@evyn10014 the argument goes both ways. lets agree that we are arguing over the two greatest horses ever. And i mean they are the greatest by far - no one even close. I have argued that both sit atop mt olympus. but your arguments as well as mine have nothing more than opinion behind them. It would be interesting if there could be a match race but we'll have to accept the fact that cannot happen and thus, whats left is wonder at their performances; their dominance; their beauty & strength
@80cathryn Yes, I'll agree with you that they could be the two best of all time. But I think I differ from a lot of people on here in feeling that the top 5 or 6 horses were very close -- the top two don't stand hand and shoulders above the others. I think you have a dream race with the greats 10 times and you're going to have a lot of different winners. I think the greats were separated by an eyelash at best.
But it's just my opinion. I respect your passion for racing!
@evyn10014 is different. Bid set his 1 1/4 AS A FOUR YEAR OLD ON A FAST TRACK IN CALIFORNIA. The fact is Sec's 10f at CD STILL stands all those years later. His 12f turf at Belmont was never broken. His 12f dirt will possibly never be broken. His fractions are still world records. Sec never had a chance to run more 8 or 10f races on DIFFERENT TRACKS to show what other monstrosities he could achieve, you know, because he was retired as a 3 yr old. I'm done wasting my time on you.
@rcschumann amen again. this idiot just like MOW name better. but here is another interesting factoid: Sec's youtube videos have over 2,000,000 views and MOW is still working on first 500k. Just like in the Belmont in 73; there's Sec all alone by a "mile" and then there's MOW, and then you cant see anyone after that. MOW - God-like; Sec = God. Everyone else are parishioners.
@80cathryn Who cares how many youtube hits Secretariat has? Just means he has a bunch of know-nothing groupies like you who can't even back up what they say. Justin Bieber's videos have billions of hits -- is he good? Fuck no. Well maybe to you...
I know more about racing in my little pinkee than you have in your whole mush-filled groupie head. The MARGIN of the 73 Belmont just means the other "competitors" were pathetic.
You think Sec would win like that against real horses? Ha. Suck it.
@evyn10014 Fager? oh he's a real champion? Did he even win one of the triple crown races? Horse of Year? What was his record as a 2 and 3 yr old? there's a big difference between a good horse, a great one and the greatest. However, there is no difference between being an idiot and being the greatest idiot. they are the same and you are the worst kind, the kind that thinks they know something.
@80cathryn Yeah... Fager's only considered one of the greatest horses of all time, by a wide consensus of turf writers -- many considering him to be the GOAT. So to diss him simply shows you don't know much about the game.
You still didn't answer my question, what race did Sec run negative splits in? Not the Belmont. Try doing it without Wikipedia. Then tell me what other horses have done the same, again without Wiki.
You don't know shit about horses bitch I can school your ass all day.
♥ SECRETARIAT♥
wiralle11 6 days ago
@Seanomoly, some say that 'no other horse' in history could run 3/4 mile as consistently as Sec was able at 1:09...and from there, maintain his speed. Agree / disagree ?
Duckworth17 1 week ago
@Duckworth17 Hard to say... I think there have been many talented horses. Speed isn't the sole mark of greatness -- witness Monarchos who ran I believe the KD virtually the same time as Sec -- not a lot of talk about him...
Secretariat was a great horse, top 5 for sure. But I prefer MOW, DF, and Citation... And the Fleet's trainer said he'd whup Secretariat. Hmmm...
But my favorite horse is KELSO. Now that was a champ.
I enjoy your comments Duckworth17, you've got class.
seanomoly 1 week ago
@seanomoly What's Fleet's trainer gonna say, that Secretariat would "whup" the Fleet?! Affirmed's trainer also said his horse was the greatest ever. So?! MOW beat borderline donkeys as a 3 year old, and actually had to be whipped in the stretch in the Dwyer to edge out the only decent horse he faced - John P. Grier. That 1 1/8 time was still FOUR SECONDS slower than Sec's at the Marlboro, when he won under a hand ride, EASILY beating SIX OLDER G1 CHAMPS and setting the WR.
SECby31 1 day ago
The only valid ways to judge a horse are A) by its performance against its competition in the years it races, and B) by records the horse sets IN THAT TIME PERIOD.
MOW wins both of those hands down vs. Secretariat. He beat every horse he ever faced (his one loss was a fluke and he beat Upset easily in other races).
Plus MOW set more records and some were never broken, only equaled (the Lawrence).
Comparing horses from different eras based purely on times is AMATEUR HOUR.
seanomoly 1 week ago
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WHAT A JOKE COMPARISON.
Secretariat, like ALL TB's in the 70's was on performance enhancing drugs. Steroids, Lasix, Bute, + modern medical treatment to stay sound, better diet, easier travel from race to race.
Given modern conditions MOW would have destroyed Sec, period.
When Sec was "drug tested" after the races the tests were only for a few banned substances. Can you name them, cause I can.
NFL tests players for "drugs." You think they're clean? Dream on...
seanomoly 1 week ago
FURTHERMORE...
You can't even compare times on tracks between one year to the next, let alone compare modern tracks with the shitty tracks they ran on in 1920.
Know something about racing besides watching some shitty disney movie with errors left and right.
MOW -- consistently dominant. Secretariat -- wildly inconsistent, especially after the TC.
I wouldn't even put Secretariat as my #2 horse, let alone #1. Fager and Citation both better IMHO.
seanomoly 1 week ago
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seanomoly 1 week ago
Secretariat beat all of MOW's times with EASE, even at 1 1/8 mile, when MOW was taken to the limit in the Dwyer to beat out Grier. Sec won his 1 1/8 in the Marlboro in a romp beating out older champs WITH EASE. The only reason he was placed 2nd in the BH 100 is because some dummy MOW fan on the panel voted him at No.14!! Bill Nack was going to do the same to Man o' War just to even out the score which would place Sec at the top - but wisely decided against it. One idiot in the panel was enough!
SECby31 2 weeks ago
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@SECby31 Man o war is amazing ! you have no respect ! And then Ruffian beat Big Reds 1 1/8 so did Zenyatta how sad! You should get new hobbie cause you have no respert for anyone and other horses! And Phar Lap and Man O War are better then him GET OVER IT!
johnofohu123 1 week ago
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@SECby31 How old are you 5 !? Kid get a life and learn before starting shit. Man o war had no competition and has better records and they still stand its sad how you dont response to my messages !
johnofohu123 1 week ago
@SECby31 you and your mother were both experts at suckin Secretariats cock at the breeding farm.
IWentForAWalkOnAWint 2 days ago
PIECE OF SHIT VIDEO.
1onetone 1 month ago
omg... you cant compare two horses that weren't even in the same time zone! seriously its annoying hearing this and that. BOTTOM LINE BOTH WERE AMAZING AND GREAT HORSES.
TheExoticAnimal 1 month ago
I read this from another poster re: Secretariat, setbacks did come to him but he was gallant even in defeat & always giving his best. Charles Hatton, turf writer who coined the phrase TC, also Hall of Fame Trainer Hollie Hughes, had actually seen the previous incarnation of equine perfection, the great Man O' War, and he said there were no comparison.
bbwalk100 1 month ago
Continuation: These men had seen it all, and they were both stunned by this chestnut colt born on 3/30/70, not only were they sure that he was the best they'd ever seen, they were sure that he was the best that anyone had seen.
bbwalk100 1 month ago
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gracwalk 1 month ago
how would you know if man o war didnt have stamina you never saw him race you dumbass man o' had speed and stamina he ran with ease he was like eclips and secretariat is nothing to man o war would kill him easily man o war won with ease every race his owner never wanted him to go all out.
liljkm12 1 month ago
@liljkm12 Man o' War was RIDDEN ALL OUT in the Dwyer, and was actually WHIPPED in the stretch to fight off John P. Grier. He set a 6 furlong fraction of 1:09 2/5 in that race, which was a WR at the time, and still considered world class today. Secretariat also ran the first 6f in 1:09 2/5 at the Marlboro, but his greater stamina enabled him to keep going through the race and easily clock almost 4 seconds faster than Man o' War over the 1 1/8 mile distance. Do some reading.
BigPetrov 1 month ago
@BigPetrov Spot on my man! The Dwyer/Marlboro comparison (1 1/8 mile) shows two things: that the tracks were not much slower in the '20s (as witness MOW's 6f clocking of 1:09 2/5 in the Dwyer - as fast as Sec for 6f in the Marlboro), and that Sec was clearly the superior horse. Sec won the Marlboro in a romp, whereas MOW was ridden hard and whipped in the stretch to fight off Grier, and was still almost 4 seconds slower! Some dummy on here brought up MOW's 100 L win against a donkey!!
SECby31 1 month ago
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@SECby31 Actually the track were a lot slower you STILL need to get your facts right, lady. Man O' War was better, and he did win by 100 lengths but trust me it was with a thoroughbred. Man O' War was never running at his full speed. The jockey always had his rein's pulled back behind his head and the only time they let him run full out was when he was turned around at the rope ,because there were not any starting gates, and they were already at the first turn. That was not fair!
breyerlover0811 2 weeks ago
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@SECby31 Also sure I do not blame Secretariat for losing the race where he had an abscess ,but what is his excuse for the other two races he lost! You still need to get your FACTS right! Also remember who is the # 1 horse of all times on all the REAL lists and who is 2nd! GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!! SERIOUSLY PEOPLE! Maybe you guys would think he was better if he was in a more recent time then Secretariat. Secretariat did race in a race called the Man O' War Stakes.
breyerlover0811 2 weeks ago
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@SECby31 You can not deny that facts are not true, so shut up because just seriously remember that Man O' War is the #1 horse on EVERY REAL list of the best race horses of ALL time! No matter what you say it will not be able to change facts or history. What else could you do now! You have nothing else on me then because the facts are the facts. You still can not change anything about that.
breyerlover0811 2 weeks ago
@BigPetrov Of course, as you mentioned earlier, both horses were carrying the same weight of 126 pds in the Dwyer Stakes and Marlboro Cup.
SECby31 1 month ago
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@liljkm12 You told that person.
breyerlover0811 1 month ago
This would brake the current world record set by the great Spectacular Bid as a four year old by a full second. Again, this doesn't acount for shoes, nutrition, transportation, starting gates, etc. It's all opinion, but it seems to me Secretariat is just one more great horse breathing Red's dust.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@Phanatic24601 You forgot to mention that MOW carried 8lbs less than Sec in their 1 and 1 1/2 mile races, the latter still crushing MOW's times at those distances. How much slower were the tracks back in the '20s? - I'm guessing not THAT much. Also, shoes were switched to aluminium in the '40s, not to increase speed, but to relieve pressure on a horse's legs. Lastly, Sec set his 1:59 in a 12f race, with another 1/4 mile to go. He beats MOW in both speed AND stamina, in any era.
rcschumann 2 months ago
@rcschumann I used the 1:59 for Secretariat because it was his fastest time for a mile and a quarter. If you would rather have me use his Kentucky Derby time of 1:59 2/5, Man o' War beats him by even more. Track managers will tell you tracks are 2-3 seconds faster than they were in the 20's. Check out the times for the Whitney before and after their track reinovation in 1954 if you don't believe me. Yes, shoes were switched to relieve stress (another advantage), but they were also faster.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@Phanatic24601 Now that I've corrected your 1 1/16 "mistake", I can continue: MOW raced an average of 1.5 horses as a 3 yr old - what a joke! He never had to negotiate large fields the way Sec did, who used his versatility to win in so many different ways, still clocking much faster times than a horse who hardly faced any obstacles at all. MOW was driven hard in the Dwyer to fight off Grier, but was still almost 4 seconds slower than Sec at 9f carrying the same weight (126 pds).
rcschumann 2 months ago
@rcschumann Sorry about the times mistake. But, once again, if you factor in tracks, Man o' War's is faster, and Man o' War was carrying MUCH more weight. As a two year old, Man o' War faced fields as large as Secretariat's. As a three year old, everyone was too afraid to race him. Hardly faced any obstacles at all??? Man o' War carried 138 pounds as a three year old!!! This is unheard of today. Man o' War carried more as a two year old than Secretariat did as a three year old.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@rcschumann In the Dwyer, Man o' War broke from a wet spot on the track and fell to his knees at the start. This is not some legend; it's in the Dorothy Ours biography. Any other horse would have been out of the race, but Man o' War still came back and beat an excellent horse carrying 18 fewer pounds. That's a great horse. Secretariat was an incredible horse as well, but, in my opinion, Man o' War was better.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@Phanatic24601 To continue (a): again, tracks could not have been that much slower in the '20s, because Secretariat didn't just beat MOW's times, he absolutely crushed them. I never read anywhere that MOW almost fell in the Dwyer - he battled in the stretch with Grier and clocked a 1:49.4 for 1 1/8, carrying 126 pds. Sec, also carrying 126 pds, clocked 1:45.2 for his 1 1/8 (WR), easily winning in a romp against older G1 champs at the Marlboro Cup. cont...
rcschumann 2 months ago
@rcschumann Man o' War almost falling is in the Dorothy Ours book, which is endorsed by Joe Palmer and Laura Hillenbrand. Good luck finding any better evidence than that. Anything less than a champian would have been out of the race, but Man o' War still came back to beat an excellent stakes winner with a significant weight advantage. Yes, Dr. Fager and others carried more than Man o' War, but they did it at four, which is when a horse reaches its peak ability.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@rcschumann Find me one other horse that carried 138 pounds as a two year old. I've given you multiple sources of how tracks are at least 2-3 seconds faster than they were in the 20's, including the track management. Think of all the advantages Secretariat had that Man o' War didn't-tracks, shoes, nutrition, starting gates, etc.-and I'm surprised his times aren't faster. You're going to need actual proof rather than just your opinion that tracks aren't faster.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@rcschumann Yes, there have been many amazing horses through the years, including Dr. Fager, Phar Lap, Spectacular Bid, etc. that may have given Secretariat or Man o' War a run for their money, but they all accomplished their greatest feats as 4 year olds. I can't even imagine what either of them could have acheived if they would have raced at four. I have nothing but the greatest love and respect for both of the "Big Reds"
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@Phanatic24601 It seems Kummer embellished what happened to MOW at the start of the Dwyer (as Riddle often did with his horse), and Ours did the same. If MOW had almost fallen, how on earth did he pass Grier at the 1/4 pole, and later clock a 6f fraction of 1:09 2/5 (WR at the time)? That's as fast a 6f as Sec at the MC (1 1/8), and the latter had a decent start. Also, the swift fractions MOW set in the Dwyer showed that the tracks of the '20s were not much slower at all.
rcschumann 2 months ago
@rcschumann I agree with your thoughts about the Dwyer. There's no way Man o' War would have set the 1/4 and 6 furlong fractions he did if he had almost fallen at the start. I mean these are world class clockings, even on today's tracks, and like you said, his 6f was as fast as Secretariat's at MC. The thing is Man o' War didn't have Sec's stamina, and so couldn't maintain these fractions till the end of the Dwyer, whereas Secretariat won his 1 1/8 with ease, almost 4 secs faster.
BigPetrov 2 months ago
@Phanatic24601 To continue (b): I mentioned before that MOW carried much less weight than Sec in their 1 and 1 1/2 mile races, but the latter still beat his times by quite a margin. You mention the great weights MOW carried. Dr. Fager carried more weight at 4 (immense weights), and won like he wasn't carrying anything at all. He's the only horse I would put next to Sec in raw power and natural talent (up to a mile - over that Sec's the best). I don't doubt MOW's greatness though.
rcschumann 2 months ago
@rcschumann Notice long ago some of the giggling of Mow "getting up off his knees".....the doubts, cynicism, and calling it a bunch of B.S. Unusual thing is knowing how big the turnouts were in the country to see him in 1920. Big crowds and 180,000 people were common.
That's the context of how Our's book is written....with corroborating evidence. To cast doubt (not you) on unusual things he did....at races with gigantic turnouts is masked insult.
Duckworth17 2 months ago
@Duckworth17 I appreciate your thoughts regarding the Ours book. I never read it, but I have read other writings regarding the Dwyer race, and there's no mention of MOW falling to his knees. I found that section of the Ours book on the Internet - if MOW did stumble, it couldn't have been that bad, as he caught up to and then slightly passed Grier quite quickly, setting a good 1/4 fraction of 0:23 2/5 and a 6f in 1:09 2/5 (WR) - as fast as Sec at the Marlboro Cup for 6f. cont...
rcschumann 2 months ago
@Duckworth17 To continue: Kummer actually had to use the whip as Grier edged in front in the final furlong, with MOW finishing in 1:49 1/5 - a WR at the time. Turcotte never touched Sec at the Marlboro Cup over the same distance of 1 1/8 miles and carrying the same weight of 126 pds. He clocked 1:45 2/5 (around 19 lengths faster than MOW), winning it from the outside and beating six older champions. Sec did "unusual things" in much larger fields and against much tougher rivals.
rcschumann 2 months ago
@rcschumann Btw, Man o' War also raced more times in the same time span than Secretariat, and yet the excuse for his loss in the Woodward is "he was too tired from racing four times in two months." Man o' War raced five times in two months TWICE as a TWO YEAR OLD. Man o' War raced more, and carried more weight. Oh, and he was also transported in crappy trains compared to the planes of Secretariat's day.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@Phanatic24601 Actually the reason for Secretariat's loss in the Woodward was that he was thrown in practically at the last minute while preparing for the MOW Stakes on grass A WEEK LATER (bad management) - not because he was "tired". He subbed for RR who didn't like the slop. He was not prepared, and you an imagine the shock of suddenly switching from grass to dirt/slop. A week later at the MOW Stakes he blasted a field of older turf champs and set the track record. cont...
rcschumann 2 months ago
@rcschumann William H.P. Robertson (racing historian) says aluminum shoes are faster. If you want to talk about weight, let's compare at 1 1/16 miles. Man o' War (1:44.8) carried 138 pounds to Secretariat's(1:45.4)124 and still ran almost a second faster, without accounting for track conditions and other factors. Man o' War's 1 1/2 mile race contained some of his slowest fractions. Why? Because he wasn't even trying, just like in all of his races, and yet he still smashed more records.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
@Phanatic24601 You got the distances and times all wrong. Sec ran his 1 1/16 in 1:42.8 (2 seconds faster than MOW). It was his 1 1/8 that was in 1:45.4 (MOW clocked a 1:49.2 at this distance) - do some research.
rcschumann 2 months ago
That has Secretariat leading by two lengths, without accounting for shoes, nutrition, medicine, transportation, and starting gates. It also needs to be considered that Man o' War was restrained through the length of the stretch. Suposing he wasn't, reporters of the time thought he could have lowered his time by a full second, making his modern time 1:58 2/5. However, one groom said "Red could have run it in 1:59 that day." Modernizing his time would mean 1:56 4/5, (under 129 pounds)
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
Let's take one distance to compare Man o' War and Secretariat: 1 1/4 miles. Secretariat: 1:59 (in the Belmont Stakes) Man o' War: 2:01 4/5 (in the Travers Stakes) Tracks improved one quarter second per quarter mile from Man o' War to Secretariat's time, according to Walter Farley, making Man o' War's time 1:59 3/5. Also, according to Dorothy Ours, four pounds was equivalent to about a length, and Man o' War carried 4 more pounds than Secretariat, making his time 1:59 2/5.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago
Take every comment here (good bad and bizarre ) - one of the most intelligent was citing the risks taken at Belmont with Sec...which heretofore was a thing carefully avoided with Citation and Mow by contrast.
Slightest misstep and the consequences to the horse are staggering.. Luckily, it did not happen.
Duckworth17 2 months ago
@Duckworth17 I don't believe there were any "risks taken" with Secretariat at Belmont - Turcotte simply let him run his race. That's like saying "risks" were taken when Sec made that frightening move round the tight 1st turn at Pimlico. Ronnie knew, Sec's trainer knew, that this horse was as strong as an ox, and the fact that he looked like he could go another mile afterwards, showed that he wasn't close to full exertion - scary as that sounds. cont...
rcschumann 2 months ago
@Duckworth17 To continue: And "missteps" can happen at anytime in a horse race, not just when a horse is decimating a field by 30 lengths. Check out Rewilding who fell this year at the G1 King George VI on turf, and had to be put down after breaking his leg. Dr. Fager could also have had a "misstep" when he exploded in the stretch and set the 1 mile record.
rcschumann 2 months ago
repost from another, good point:
THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY TO COMPARE HORSES.
Race them.
Well, these two aren't going to race, ever. So no one will ever know what would happen if they did.
I'll take the original Big Red. Who raced clean without drugs, without planes, without the kid weights of the 70's, and dominated.
Not only is MOW the best of the century, he's the most important of the century. For setting the standard for WHAT IS POSSIBLE, and breeding champions.
seanomoly 3 months ago
@seanomoly Of course MOW "dominated" - he raced an average of 1.5 horses as a 3 yr old (borderline barn ponies), and actually carried less weight than Secretariat in their 1 and 1 1/2 mile races. Sec didn't just beat his times in these races, he crushed them. Again, if Sec was on the juice he wouldn't need those strenuous workouts that Lauren inflicted on him before each race - he could just hang out in his barn until race day, and let the drugs do their thing. This horse was just a freak.
rcschumann 3 months ago
Anabolic steroids cause enlarged hearts in humans and test animals.
Some people get upset if you suggest Secretariat was on steroids. When they autopsied Secretariat, his heart weighed 22lbs. The next largest heart they ever found was 18lbs. The horse had a massive heart, which allowed it to pump large volumes of blood through it's muscles, that's what made it great.
The horse had a massive heart, which allowed it to pump large volumes of blood through it's muscles, that's what made it great.
ALLinALLgood 4 months ago
@ALLinALLgood Lucien Laurin imposed strenuous workouts on his colt before every race - legendary workouts he wouldn't need if he was on the juice, and that would ruin any other horse. When he didn't respond to those drilling sessions, such as before the Whitney when he was ill with a fever, he lost. Before the Preakness he drilled 5f in 0:57.4. Later at Pimlico he won by 3 lengths, setting a track record. His enlarged heart is inherited from his dam's side on the X chromosome.
rcschumann 3 months ago
Secretariat is the greatest ever. No horse on earth would have lived with him at the Belmont. But that wasn't his only great race, as witness his monster last-to-first round the tight first turn at Pimlico - I have never witnessed acceleration like that, passing horses like they were walking! His stride was the biggest I have ever seen (bigger than MOW), and his action was smooth as silk. The best.
SECby31 4 months ago
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@SECby31 Secretariat's stride was 4 feet shorter than Man O' War's stride. Get your facts right. What is the most lengths Secretariat had won by, like 31 lengths and Man O' War won a race by 100 lengths. Plus Man O' War is better because you have to think about the fact that they were in way different times and when Secretariat was racing the tracks were a lot better when Secretariat was around. Plus they called Man O' War horse of the "CENTURY" and Secretariat was horse of the "YEAR".
breyerlover0811 1 month ago
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The American arrogance and ignorance is famose . If a horse wins in USA, without ever leaving his country, , it automatically becomes the best in history. Out of Your Truman Show , out the Hollywood movies , in the real world, everyone knows ..the best horse ever (gallop) is the Italian " RIBOT ", the best trotter ever is Italian " VARENNE " the best jockey ever is the Italian " FRANKIE DETTORI." All people can check these names on internet and make an assessment of the results.
MrItaliano1900 4 months ago
I think Man O' War is better because you have to think about the fact that they were in way different times and when Secretariat was racing the tracks were better and a lot of things were better about the tracks and everything. Also they called Man O' War horse of the "CENTURY" and Secretariat was horse of the "YEAR".
breyerlover0811 4 months ago
Secretariat's Belmont time would have beat every triple crown winner by at least 25 lengths.
ecgqueen 5 months ago
Thanks for removing that score.......removing the audio.
There is a wealth of classical music out there - well worth the time and trouble.
Duckworth17 5 months ago
@Duckworth17 I didn't remove it, Youtube just recently took it off.
carlykaiser 5 months ago
@BigPetrov Yes, would have been interesting to see Sec take on Dr Fager and Ruffian at shorter distances (up to a mile). My own instinct is he had very comparable top-line speed to those two, just his Zenyatta-like habit of slowly strolling out of the gates would probably be a too generous tactic to always catch those pair by the mile post. That said, 9 times out of 10 he would have passed them both by the 1 1/8 post and only increased that gap the longer the race.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble I agree that had Turcotte been at the helm he probably would have run Secretariat through the wire, being his last race and all - though it's customary for a jockey to shut a horse down when a clear lead has been reached. Regarding match-ups with Fager and Ruffian under 8f, he would need a good start (like Belmont) and his raw power would make it interesting. At 8f, his pedigree, stamina and that giant, piston-like 110° stride should spell success for the Bold Ruler colt.
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov Sec would like to take Private Smiles to start in the gate next to him, as that horse started even slower than Sec, forcing Sec to go forward to avoid a collision and into history. I tend to think the 4yr old Dr Fager might have been tricky for even Sec to reel in by the 8f pole, but the full grown 4yr old Sec we never saw race probably had him covered and would have been a real threat for the mile WR. From 10f onwards it would be all over anyway in favour of the 3yr old Sec.
eckythimble 5 months ago
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Any good trainer will tell you,
THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY TO COMPARE HORSES.
Race them.
Well, these two aren't going to race, ever. So no one will ever know what would happen if they did. It's just an opinion.
I'll take the original Big Red. Who raced clean without drugs, without planes, without the kid weights of the 70's, and dominated.
Not only is MOW the best of the century, he's the most important of the century. For setting the standard for WHAT IS POSSIBLE, and for breeding champions.
evyn10014 5 months ago
Since then Simply Majestic took a mere 0.2 secs off his 1 1/8 time on a fast west coast track and the 4yr old Spectacular Bid followed a rabbit and ran clearly tighter turns on another fast west coast track than 3yr old Sec's Marlboro to equal his 1 1/4 DRF timed world record. In short, a 3yr old Sec running on slower east coast tracks has clear claims to be regarded as the fastest/greatest horse in history over 1 1/8 to 1 5/8 miles. (cont')
eckythimble 5 months ago
haha man o war lost two races. sea biscuit beat him by four lengths in a match race:)
kyrocrazy21 5 months ago
@kyrocrazy21 Not quite. Man O' War lost one race against Upset. His son War Admiral is the one who lost to Seabiscuit in the match race.
carlykaiser 5 months ago
@kyrocrazy21 Mano war sired War Admiral and was the grandsire of Seabisquit
TheRoanman 5 months ago
@kyrocrazy21 your thinking about War Admiral - 1938 Match Race with seabiscuit
Not Man O War
WildeManorCollies 4 months ago
@evyn....you indicate you know have professional knowledge of T horse racing. Great. And you indicate you have better technical than than I. Great. But why is it necessary for you to disparage people (like me) who love Secretariat & consider his accomplishments The Greatest? Perhaps Sec WAS the Greatest! Perhaps 'Sec groupies' (ur words, not mine) are correct. Just because he is Loved by MANY, doesn't mean he is not the real Thing!
nin12dog 5 months ago
@nin12dog I'm sorry if I've been rude. I love Secretariat, and think he MIGHT have been the best horse of all time. But I don't like the misinformation people throw out there and pass off as the truth.
But regardless you are right, he was the Real Deal.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 No prob, and thanks for the explanation - i'm not a professional - I saw Sec's Belmont when I was a teen. I still remember it! These horses are so compelling and fascinating!
nin12dog 5 months ago
@evyn - do you personally dislike Secretariat?
nin12dog 5 months ago
@ evyn - However, IMHO, your idea that Sec had a huge margin of victory due to lack of competion makes no sense. It seems Secretariat didn't know or care about the competion - this didn't seem to enter Sec's head. He simply kept running very very FAST. So it was a 'fast track'? Great. This doesn't change the FACT Secretariat ACCELERATED as he completed Belmont - even though he didn't NEED TO. He chose to accelerate (hand ride), and had the physical gifts to do so.
nin12dog 5 months ago
@nin12dog This would be an example of misinformation... Sec ran negative splits in the KD, not the Belmont. In the Belmont at the end he was slowing down -- his "competition" was just slowing down more than him, therefore his margin of victory was growing.
re: margin. A horse's time shows what they were capable of on that track that day. Margin of victory shows what their competition was capable of. So the other horse's pitiful showing has everything to do with the "margin" of Sec's victory.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn - re: "Secretariat's "time" in the Belmont was a combination of him having the run of his life and a perfect track. His "margin of victory" is due to lousy competition." I think you're wrong. [Note - I would never disparage ANY OTHER horse, as many are extraordinary & had brilliant careers]. I, like MANY, simply believe Secretariat was THE GREATEST - I never saw MOW race. I know MOW is considered the 'Secretariat' of his generation - a Phenomenon .
nin12dog 5 months ago
Theres no point to try to bring either one down they ran different distances at there times and man o war is horse of the century all ready!
johnofohu123 5 months ago
Nelsan Ellis is much better as Lafayette in True Blood than as Eddie Sweat in Secretariat. Just an observation...
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 of course hes much better at playing Lala! but he did extremely well in Secretariat! most people think he didnt do a good job because they are used to seeing him as Lala which is a completely different character...
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing ha, yeah, he's good in everything.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 I think you feel the same way about Secretariat that I feel about Seabiscuit. I absolutely can't stand the latter (not nice to say about an animal, I know!), and the film made about him contributed to this dislike. They portrayed War Admiral, clearly the superior horse, as some sort of monster in that film, and the hype surrounding Biscuit since the movie is plain ridiculous. So I can understand your dislike of Secretariat, with all the hype surrounding him - only he's a true great.
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov That's an interesting observation, especially about the Seabiscuit movie (I agree). I'm actually a big Secretariat fan, I've just gotten jaded by the "Secretariat walks on water" crew (not you).
But I agree, he's an all-time great.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@funnyhorsey Word
evyn10014 5 months ago
@BigPetrov Times are generally irrelevant because of track Variance. I'm more impressed by horses consistently winning throughout their careers -- which is why MOW is the #1 horse among serious fans.
And the behavior you describe of Secretariat -- surging past other horses with little or no coaxing, weaving through heavy traffic, can describe any number of champions. Both Goldikova and Sea the Stars have won so many races when they seemed trapped then sprinted out of nowhere.
evyn10014 5 months ago
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evyn10014 5 months ago
@funnyhorsey I saw your comment and I wanted to ask you, you like MOW despite the fact that he was not as fast of Sec. right?
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun I never said you said that MOW was faster then Sec. I said despite the fact that MOW is slower than Sec. is not a determining factor in you liking MOW. FYI Sec. track times beat MOW's. Not even one of MOW track times beat Sec. Sec. holds the record.
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun Wrong Sailor, MOW ran 1 5/8ths faster than Sec at the LR, and his jockey didn't even carry a whip.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 I think that person was referring to Secretariat's clocking (by DRF) of 2:37 4/5 for 1 5/8 at the Belmont, pulling up past the wire after he set the 1 1/2 mile record! Secretariat's official clocking of 2:41 4/5 at the CIS in Toronto was done on the kind of soft, damp turf that you would find on racecourses in the UK. This horse still holds the margin-of-victory record for that race. Anyway, MOW was certainly magnificent in setting his WR 1 5/8 that day at the Belmont track.
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov Agreed, his run out time was phenomenal. I guess that's the allure of racing -- there's no definitive answer as to which horse is the greatest. But both Sec and MOW certainly made strong cases for themselves.
Yes, Sec's turf run was wet and nasty. But he did set a TR that day so he ran well. MOW ran the LR without Kummer carrying a whip, so I'm guessing he could have ran it a good 2 seconds faster if pushed, which would have been truly extraordinary.
I enjoy your comments.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 Thanks! Your comments are interesting too. Regarding the CIS, Secretariat didn't set a TR that day - The Axe II had the fastest time at 2:41 flat (1963), until it was broken by the great Dahlia in 1974 with a time of 2:40 flat. I believe Secretariat ran against a decent headwind that day, besides the damp, wet conditions.
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov I think what people forget in the CIS is that Sec had a different jockey that day, who let him saunter from a devastating 12 length lead at the turn to "just" a 6 1/2 length win at the post. Were the other horses out staying Sec down the stretch? I doubt it. Video shows Maples clearly reigning Sec in, whereas Turcotte (with exception of Preakness) was accustomed to urging Sec on to the line - just to see what he could do - and hence the unofficial world records past the post.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@evyn10014 In the following races sec. time was better then MOW. 1 mile, 1 1/16, 1 1/8, 1 3/8, 1 3/16, 1 1/4, 1 3/8, 1 1/2, 1 5/8. You claim at the LR that MOW's time was faster the Sec.? Well soldier boy, Sec.'s fastest time in that race beat MOW by 15% LENGTHS. See angelfire . com/jazz/nutbush/
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@funnyhorsey M O W could not out do Sec. an ANY field of racing. Look up the stats.
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun got that right
80cathryn 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun Ruffian killed all of secretariats times from 5 1/2 furlongs-6 furlongs, and she ran a faster quater in her 1 1/2mile race than secretariat did in his, ruffian was in the lead by 6 lengths in her race within 15 seconds! then the jockey choked her... MANY people say if she had been allowed to run she would have beaten secretariats record
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Ruffian never "killed" Secretariat's 2 yr old sprint times, but she did beat them. She was one heck of racemare for sure - possibly the greatest filly ever. However what Secretariat achieved as a juvenile was enough for him to become Horse of the Year - the first ever as a 2 yr old. Check out his Hopeful Stakes, when he makes the most explosive last-to-first moves you'll ever see. Older horses wish they could do that. Of course at 3, he showed what he could do at his best.
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov she KILLED his times!
and it wasnt the most explosive last to 1st move ever, i think the award for most explosive last to 1st move award goes to Silky Sullivan!
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing By "explosive" I meant the speed with which he made that move, and the short distance it took him to reach the lead - it left his own jockey stunned. Silky Sullivan's win from way far back at the SA Derby was very impressive, but was done gradually over the course of the race. Also, by "killed", do you mean Ruffian beat Secretariat's juvenile sprint times by 4 seconds?
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov explosive? look up Donnaguska! THATS explosive!
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Yes, there are many forms of "explosive". Check out 2 yr old Arazi at the Breeders Cup Juvenile, or Lammtarra at the Epsom Derby. Also check out this vid on YT: "Broad Appeal Unbelievable Race - came from behind" - insane!!
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov ive seen them.... insane indeed =P
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@BigPetrov Uh, no... Moccasin, Native Dancer and Domino were all HOY @ 2 (overall title not the 2-year old title) long before Secretariat.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 Sorry, and Colin was HOY @ 2.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 For some reason I thought Secretariat was the first 2 year old to receive the HOY award - my mistake. Regarding the competition at Belmont, My Gallant was a G1 winner, with a win over Forego and Our Native (major stakes winner himself) under his belt. Of course, the fields Secretariat faced at the Derby and Preakness were tougher, with the former including Forego, Our Native, Sham and other stakes winners...I guess owners had had enough of Big Red by Belmont time! cont...
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov Yeah, there wasn't a horse on the planet that was beating him that day -- and maybe no horse that ever lived...
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 To continue: Secretariat was in fact setting the WR for every quarter at Belmont (except 1st). Yes, he was slowing down slightly in the stretch (otherwise he WAS a machine!), but he did set the record for that final 1/4 as well. To go back to competition, the fields he faced at the MC, MOW, CIS included champion older horses. I'm wondering why you fail to mention the 5 Eclipse awards Secretariat received. Your factual knowledge is better than mine - did any other horse equal that?
BigPetrov 5 months ago
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evyn10014 5 months ago
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@BigPetrov Yeah, II'm not sure Sec needs me to beat the drum for him, he already has plenty of support. Off the top of my head I don't know what other horses have more Eclipse awards than Sec except Kelso -- who has 5 HOY and 1 Champion Older Horse Eclipse award, so I believe he'd have 6...
So what do you think of the European scene these days? Who do you like? And where would you put Sea the Stars, etc. in comparison to America's greats? Just curious, not to start an argument.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Ruffian was choked by her jockey? I also heard that Ruffian gave a sudden muscle twitch that slowed her down. What is the truth? Consider this, what good jocky in his right mind would hold a horse back from winning, one who was paid off? There is no good factual reason to declare why Ruffian slowed down. Furthermore in a 1 1/2 mile race it matters not who ran the first quarter mile faster! Sec. is the KING of fast horses. Crossing the finish line is what counts!!
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun umm? do you know NOTHING!?
vasquez was told to hold by ruffians trainer to hold ruffian until equal change moved up to challenge her, but equal change didnt get within a length before ruffian started to speed up a little again! Frank whitely never cared about track records, he cared about his horse coming home safely. i dont know where you get that she had a miscle twitch, since she was bucking and playing after the finish line!
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing You go ahead and place your bets on a horse that 'comes home safely' while I place my bet on the horse that will WIN the race. If Ruffian was held back for its safety, then it ran its best time without getting killed, Sec. ran without needing to be held back for its safety and scores a winning time against Ruffian. You promote Ruffian as a faster horse but has to be held back so it won't hurt itself LOL shezzz, maybe Ruffian shouldn't be out on the track!!
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun Spend much time around racing there buddy? ALL GOOD TRAINERS hold their horses back to preserve them for future races. The racing season is kinda like the NFL season -- it's long and horses get banged up. Thoroughbreds are notoriously injury prone -- so you want to do as little as possible while winning.
Sec's Belmont run was actually very risky -- he could have easily had a career ending injury. One stumble at that speed and it's all over. That's what happened to Count Fleet.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun WOW you seriously are one dumb idiot! ruffian was held back because frank whitely didnt want her being hit with the whip or pushed to hard! she was held back in the coaching club american oaks because frank wanted ruffian to know what it was like to be challenged for the lead because she was going to be entered in some colts races after that! are you THAT stupid!?
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Ruffian's track record is less then Sec. because Ruffian couldn't be hit with the whip or pushed to hard? But Sec. could be pushed hard and hit with the whip (if that's what happen) and in so doing wins the race? Ha ha ha ha ha, shezzzzz. Poor baby Ruffian, keep the horse off the track or only race her in powder puff races. LOL
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun hmm, yes i can cleary see that you are an idiot and was clearly dropped on your head when you were a baby.... OH WAIT you are a baby =O
Ruffian was a racehorse that raced in races without the whip, setting track record and stakes record in all of the races she ran under a hand ride, i didnt see secretariat win his 1st race by 15 lengths under a hand ride in the process running the fastest time by a 2 year old on dirt ever! as i recall, secretariat didnt even win his 1st race!
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing You can't argue with the facts. Show me one track time where Ruffian time is greater than Sec. U CAN'T. Show me in all the races where Ruffian ran at 39mph like Sec. did, U CAN'T. Show me in any race where Ruffian was the last horse by the first turn and won the race like sec. did making a new track record, U CAN'T. What u CAN do is name call me and THATS ALL. Ruffian is a good horse, but not compared to Sec. & U cant handle de truth!!
SunnyDaysRFun 5 months ago
@SunnyDaysRFun LOL shall i bring out the times? you want times that ruffian had faster than secretariat... OKAY! ON DIRT
5 1/2 furlong: Ruffian 1:02.80 under a hand ride, Secretariat didnt even place in a 5 1/2 furlong race, 6 furlong: Ruffian 1:08.60 under a hand ride, secretariat 1:10.60 under the whip, 7 furlong, Ruffian 1:21.20 under a hand ride, secretariat 1:23.20 under the whip, even his first 1 1/8 was disgusting! the only 2 distances he is really better at are 1 1/8 and 1 1/2 m!
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing Where do you get your facts from?! SEC'S official 6f is 1:09 4/5, not 1:10.60!! "Under the whip"?! SEC was hardly shown the "whip" in his life - watch all his TC races. He was whipped twice at the KD and that was it. Watch the EASE with which he won the Marlboro Cup, beating older champs under a hand ride. His 1 1/8 is 1:45 2/5 - what's Ruffian's? And no he wasn't only better at 9 and 12f. He was faster at 8 and 10f as well. Ruffian was a faster sprinter at 2 - THAT'S IT.
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov Actually as a 2 year old, Sec ran an even more respectable 1:08.60 over 6 furlongs while wining the Gotham Stakes.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble Thanks for pointing that out. That 6f clocking at the Gotham was impressive considering he had a lousy start as he bumped the gate on his way out, and finished with a 1:33 2/5 for the mile, beating the mighty Dr. Fager's time at that race by almost 2 seconds.
BigPetrov 5 months ago
@BigPetrov That's interesting that Sec beat one of Dr. Fager's mile times. Generally though I think Sec would neeed 1 1/8 miles to be sure of reeling in Dr. Fager as Fager was a truly great sprinter.
eckythimble 5 months ago
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eckythimble 5 months ago
CONTINUED, the only races that secretariat are faster than ruffian in are the 1 mile, 1 1/8 and the 1 1/2 mile, as for the 5 1/2 furlong, 6 furlong and 7 furlong Ruffian was faster! without being pushed, still setting 3 track records at 3 different tracks, and setting new stakes records in all the 8 stakes races she ran, Ruffian was undefeated, secretariat wasnt, secretariat didnt win his 1st race, Ruffian did, by 15 lengths and in track record time, under a hand ride
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@RuffianQueenOfRacing So you're saying the only races Secretariat was faster than Ruffian at were all the "Classic Distances" a mile and over that pretty much define a horse's legacy... Interesting comment.
seanomoly 5 months ago
@seanomoly ruffian was held back in her 3 year old season or do you not know anything at all? obviously not
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
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CONTINUED, the only races that secretariat are faster than ruffian in are the 1 mile, 1 1/8 and the 1 1/2 mile, as for the 5 1/2 furlong, 6 furlong and 7 furlong Ruffian was faster! without being pushed, still setting 3 track records at 3 different tracks, and setting new stakes records in all the 8 stakes races she ran, Ruffian was undefeated, secretariat wasnt, secretariat didnt win his 1st race, Ruffian did, by 15 lengths and in track record time, under a hand ride
RuffianQueenOfRacing 5 months ago
@MrGuiri88 Ruffian was a filly. Ribot and Nearco were great horses as well, but I'll take Ruffian.
evyn10014 5 months ago
Secretariat was faster.Broke man-A war 's records.Maybe man -a -war was a better stud.I guess the money is really what counts.who made the most money for their owners?(adjusted for inflation)
fraink7 5 months ago
@funnyhorsey wrong - we saw everything he had against Sir Barton - that was his greatest and toughest race of his career and he di well to win by 6 lengths; But, and its a big one, he still is 4 seconds slower than Sec in the 1.5 miles - that's 20 lengths behind and even if we are half wrong, Sec still wins by 10
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn You know nothing about Man o War. His race against Sir Barton was won in a gallop, wasn't even a challenge. His toughest race was the Dwyer, which he won. MOW also ran faster than Sec at a 1 5/8ths. He also set records that stood longer than Secretariat's, and was consistently great. He was the superior horse.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 And Sec ran a faster 6f, mile, 1 1/4, 1 1/8, and 1 1/2 - actually, saying he ran faster would be like saying Usain Bolt ran "faster" than Sebastian Coe. So that makes SEC the "superior horse". Also, I thought your thick head grasped the fact that Sec ran his 1 5/8 on THICK, WET, DAMP Canadian grass, in frigid, windy weather, as opposed to MOW's clocking on HARD, DRY DIRT. Lets go by Sec's unofficial 1 5/8 clocking on the same track (Belmont), when he AGAIN buried MOW. DUNCE!
rcschumann 5 months ago
@rcschumann You're an idiot, comparing times. They don't equate. Winning equates. Citation at 3, 19 out of 20. MOW at 3 -- perfect. Secretariat after the TC, barely above .500.
Take Secretariat back to 1920, no PED's, no lux flights to cart him around -- and he would get his ass kicked sideways by MOW. Same if he faced Citation or Count Fleet in their day. He's overrated.
Speed wise, many faster horses than both since then. Doesn't matter. Winning over a career matters.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 Winning records mean something in context - cant count a win by 100 lengths a race that should have been run. comments on race notes for MOW will say things like eased up but it could also mean the horse was running out of gas. Like the rider eased up so the horse could finish. bad argument anyway. I looked it up. Sec has two SPEED records at distance as the longest standing to date - 38 years and one of them not one horse has come within 2 seconds of touching.
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn If you want to talk winning in context, many horses have fought tougher opposition than Secretariat. Let me name a few: Fager vs. Damascus, Affirmed vs. Alydar. If you dig a little deeper you'll find MOW had records that stood for far longer than 38 years.
You're just a bandwagon Secretariat fan who doesn't know the facts about the many other great horses.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 at the start and keeping it against the borderline barn ponies he faced. Sec won circling the field, plowing through between horses, on the lead, from the back. He beat older champions, and did it in a romp, while his rivals were being whipped senseless. This is the superior horse. He always set a record after a loss at 3, showing of what he was capable when healthy and running close to his peak. You keep mentioning Sec's "broken" records, but ignore the fact that each track...
rcschumann 5 months ago
@rcschumann evyn10014 - Secretariat had superior speed and time for each marker on the race track fro 6 furlongs to the mile and 5/8's. in some cases 4 seconds faster. MOW i believe is greatest of the first half century and second all time to Secretariat who flat out smoked his competition which were bigger fields and, lest we forget the Belmont 2:24 is a 10-20 length blowout against any horse in history. no horse has done better than 2:26. And Sec was accelerating away in the stretch.
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn Cathryn, I know this is hard to understand -- look at Sec's Belmont splits -- he was slowing down at the end, not speeding up. He only ran a negative split in one race -- I asked you to name it you didn't -- guess you don't know your horse that well.
Secretariat's competition in the Belmont was pitiful after Sham broke down. You put any top horse in there with him and there's NO BLOWOUT.
Belmont 73 was a lightning fast track. You gonna compare to times on slower tracks? Rookie.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@rcschumann You're a bandwagon rookie. Lots of the "Greats" set records every time they stepped on a track. Horses you don't even hear about -- like SWAPS, who broke records every time he was healthy, at all different distances. Secretariat is one of the 5 best, not the best. Get over it.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 You said somewhere (which I can't find among the 1,000 messages here) "pullup times don't mean anything. Only official times count". Actually I think in some ways it's even more impressive that Sec was timed by DRF running 4+ lengths faster than the world records of Riva Ridge, Demi's Bret, Swaps, etc before and after the finish post - just because he could. He didn't know it was disrespectful to thrash all then world record holders from 1 1/8 to 1 5/8 miles. (cont)
eckythimble 5 months ago
Comment removed
eckythimble 5 months ago
@evyn10014: The competition would have needed binoculars to be able to see a 4yr old Sec running on west coast tracks!
eckythimble 5 months ago
@evyn10014 Excuse Sec for not being dead longer but no one will touch the 1.5 mile record. 6 FL MOW1:11 1/5 Sec 1:09 4/5; mile MOw 1:35 4/5 SEc 1:33 2/5; mile 1/16 MOW 1:44 4/5 Sec 1:42 4/5; mile 1/8 MOW 1:49 1/5 Sec 1:45 2/5; mile 3/16 MOW 1:56 3/5 Sec 1:53 2/5; mile 1/4 MOW 2:01 4/5 Sec 1:59; mile 3/8 MOW 2:14 1/5 Sec 2:12 1/5; Mile 1/2 MOW 2:28 4/5 Sec 2:24; Mile 5/8 MOW 2:40 4/5 Sec 2:37 4/5. End of story pal. MOW was 1 of 2 greatest ever. The greatest being Secretariat. 2:24 untouchable
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn Nah.
MOW #1, Citation #2, Fager and Kelso tied at #3, Secretariat at #4.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 Excuse Sec for not being dead longer but no one will touch the 1.5 mile record. 6 FL MOW1:11 1/5 Sec 1:09 4/5; mile MOw 1:35 4/5 SEc 1:33 2/5; mile 1/16 MOW 1:44 4/5 Sec 1:42 4/5; mile 1/8 MOW 1:49 1/5 Sec 1:45 2/5; mile 3/16 MOW 1:56 3/5 Sec 1:53 2/5; mile 1/4 MOW 2:01 4/5 Sec 1:59; mile 3/8 MOW 2:14 1/5 Sec 2:12 1/5; Mile 1/2 MOW 2:28 4/5 Sec 2:24; Mile 5/8 MOW 2:40 4/5 Sec 2:37 4/5. End of story pal. MOW was 1 of 2 greatest ever. The greatest being Secretariat. 2:24 untouchable
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn I respect your right to believe that. Secretariat was a great horse.
Comparing times on different tracks and times is meaningless. The old tracks were 2 seconds or so slower. Some more.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 the argument goes both ways. lets agree that we are arguing over the two greatest horses ever. And i mean they are the greatest by far - no one even close. I have argued that both sit atop mt olympus. but your arguments as well as mine have nothing more than opinion behind them. It would be interesting if there could be a match race but we'll have to accept the fact that cannot happen and thus, whats left is wonder at their performances; their dominance; their beauty & strength
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn Yes, I'll agree with you that they could be the two best of all time. But I think I differ from a lot of people on here in feeling that the top 5 or 6 horses were very close -- the top two don't stand hand and shoulders above the others. I think you have a dream race with the greats 10 times and you're going to have a lot of different winners. I think the greats were separated by an eyelash at best.
But it's just my opinion. I respect your passion for racing!
evyn10014 5 months ago
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@evyn10014 Excuse Sec for not being dead longer but no one will touch the 1.5 mile record. 6 FL MOW1:11 1/5 Sec 1:09 4/5; mile MOw 1:35 4/5 SEc 1:33 2/5; mile 1/16 MOW 1:44 4/5 Sec 1:42 4/5; mile 1/8 MOW 1:49 1/5 Sec 1:45 2/5; mile 3/16 MOW 1:56 3/5 Sec 1:53 2/5; mile 1/4 MOW 2:01 4/5 Sec 1:59; mile 3/8 MOW 2:14 1/5 Sec 2:12 1/5; Mile 1/2 MOW 2:28 4/5 Sec 2:24; Mile 5/8 MOW 2:40 4/5 Sec 2:37 4/5. End of story pal. MOW was 1 of 2 greatest ever. The greatest being Secretariat. 2:24 untouchable
80cathryn 5 months ago
@evyn10014 is different. Bid set his 1 1/4 AS A FOUR YEAR OLD ON A FAST TRACK IN CALIFORNIA. The fact is Sec's 10f at CD STILL stands all those years later. His 12f turf at Belmont was never broken. His 12f dirt will possibly never be broken. His fractions are still world records. Sec never had a chance to run more 8 or 10f races on DIFFERENT TRACKS to show what other monstrosities he could achieve, you know, because he was retired as a 3 yr old. I'm done wasting my time on you.
rcschumann 5 months ago
@rcschumann amen again. this idiot just like MOW name better. but here is another interesting factoid: Sec's youtube videos have over 2,000,000 views and MOW is still working on first 500k. Just like in the Belmont in 73; there's Sec all alone by a "mile" and then there's MOW, and then you cant see anyone after that. MOW - God-like; Sec = God. Everyone else are parishioners.
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn Who cares how many youtube hits Secretariat has? Just means he has a bunch of know-nothing groupies like you who can't even back up what they say. Justin Bieber's videos have billions of hits -- is he good? Fuck no. Well maybe to you...
I know more about racing in my little pinkee than you have in your whole mush-filled groupie head. The MARGIN of the 73 Belmont just means the other "competitors" were pathetic.
You think Sec would win like that against real horses? Ha. Suck it.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@rcschumann All Sec's WR's except 1 1/2 on dirt have been broken. His 1 1/2 on turf record has been pulverized on other tracks, big whup.
Go crawl back in your shrine and light some candles.
evyn10014 5 months ago
@evyn10014 Fager? oh he's a real champion? Did he even win one of the triple crown races? Horse of Year? What was his record as a 2 and 3 yr old? there's a big difference between a good horse, a great one and the greatest. However, there is no difference between being an idiot and being the greatest idiot. they are the same and you are the worst kind, the kind that thinks they know something.
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn Yeah... Fager's only considered one of the greatest horses of all time, by a wide consensus of turf writers -- many considering him to be the GOAT. So to diss him simply shows you don't know much about the game.
You still didn't answer my question, what race did Sec run negative splits in? Not the Belmont. Try doing it without Wikipedia. Then tell me what other horses have done the same, again without Wiki.
You don't know shit about horses bitch I can school your ass all day.
evyn10014 5 months ago