John Piper - Believing is the Evidence of the New Birth

[MusickDan]

Sorry, but Greek is not as specific as English. For example, scholars can't agree on the translation of a simple participle phrase in Phil. 2:6, "ὃς...ὑπάρχων." NASB: "who, although He existed," ESV: who, though he was," ESV: "Who, being." Had Paul written in modern English the meaning would be clear. I would not want my last will written in Greek.

Faith precedes and is a condition for life and regeneration, e.g., John 3:7, 16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 11:25, 20:21; Col. 2:12, 1 Tim. 1:16, Eph. 2:1-8.

[Strefanasha]

ah, calvinism. If this is so how did anyone get saved in Old Testament times when The Spirit was not given. Because if they did not have the Spirit they could never have believed.

regeneration precedes belief?

out of context rendering

[ronathanedwards]

@Strefanasha The spirit did work in the peoples lives in the Old Testament as well. Your argument however doesn't change the fact of the grammar of 1 John 5:1. Either John was wrong, or your understanding of soteriology is incorrect. I'm betting John knew what he was talking about much more than you.

[MusickDan]

1. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. (1 John 5:1)

2. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been justified. Is this true?

According to Reformed ordo salutis, being born of God precedes faith which precedes justification. (Rom.5:1)

If the same grammatical structure that places being born of God before faith can also allow justification after faith, then the grammatical structure of the verse does not really address the order of salvation.

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan False premise therefore you have an incorrect conclusion. Nowhere in the N.T. does an author put belief (verb) and justified (verb) in the same sentence. Therefore there is no construct to make such a parallel... why? Because premise 2 is an incorrect construct. The authors were careful to not pit the two verbs together in a sentence. If faith/believing is a verb the author uses the NOUN justification, and vice versa. Your argument fails and 1 John 5:1 stands!

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards I was not quoting Scripture. I simply asked if the statement is true. Is it? If it is, then the conclusion stands.

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan You are also making a statement understanding it from the ENGLISH, this also leads you to misunderstand not only the verse, but your own premise and making it an un-biblical statement.

UN-biblical - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been justified.

Biblical - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ IS Justified.

Your conclusion doesn't stand, mine does.

You confuse the FORCE of the perfect in the Greek with the common understanding of the English.

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards "Has been justified (and this justification continues)" probably better represents the Greek force, but this has no bearing on my premise. This may help.

1. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (and this life continues). (1 John 5:1) Which comes first - believing or being born of God?

2. Everyone who attends Bethlehem Church has been impacted (and this impact continues) by John Piper's preaching. Which comes first - attending or being impacted?

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan Wheaton College Grad and that's the understanding you have of the Greek? Do you know Greek? Do you understand aktionsart? The FORCE and aspect of perfect tense is a CAUSE in the PAST that has present and continuing EFFECTS. A perfect tense is not in a vacuum. In the sentence it is joined with a present tense. This is where Greek is much more precise than English. The perfect is the CAUSE and the ongoing EFFECT is the PRESENT tense.

Your arguments using English only muddy your waters.

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται...

12 Words. Show me where the present participle πιστεύων has to follow the perfect tense indicative γεγέννηται, or that "the perfect is the CAUSE and the ongoing EFFECT is the PRESENT tense." I've never heard that. I studied classical Greek in college and Koine Greek in grad school.

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan Well... I'm just guessing, but you only took 1 year of Koine Greek? Aktionsart is the "putting together" of different tenses within the same clause to understand how their force (aspect) properly interact with each other.

This REALLY can't be done in English, it's too vague a language.

Every embryo growing has been fertilized by the father. THAT is reason John (and Jesus) used that analogy. Gegennatai means to fertilize, generate. What happened first, the growing or fertilization?

[ronathanedwards]

Everyone bleeding has been shot. The ongoing EFFECT is not "shooting" being done at the present moment, but the BLEEDING is the effect, the cause is the shot in the PAST, it's result is present bleeding.

Again the analogy is ALWAYS connected with BIRTH with the father "generating or fertilizing". The analogy makes no sense if one says; one is born in order to be fertilized.What's the STANDARD for salvation in the letter?

Belief? Or is that just one of the RESULTS? 1 JO 2:29;3:9;4:7; 5:1,4,18

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards Always? Show me in Greek how the perfect is always the CAUSE and the ongoing EFFECT is the PRESENT tense. I've demonstrated in English that they aren't.

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan Like I said before Dan, English doesn't mean anything. You have to show me where in the exact construct given it DOESN'T mean it is a cause/effect. Not only that, but you have to give an argumentation why it ISN'T for some reason in 5:1 but then John uses it as cause/effect for 2:29;3:9;4:7;5:4;5:18 ? The very same author AND the same letter! You're fighting a lost battle my friend. You also didn't answer my question, why does JOhn use a Father/Born/Child analogy?Why use "fertilize"?

[pipe34101]

I tend to lean towards calvinism, but the translation from my bible, and i think KJ and NIV similarly says, "if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL BE saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, RESULTING in salvation" Romans 10: 9-10. That is the HCS version. Any advice here would help.

[JamesFLC]

You need to consider scripture in context and always ask how this or that applies to the gospel.

For example, Rom 10:9 (ESV)

9) "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Is Paul's point that a verbal affirmation of Jesus as Lord causes a man to be regenerated?

Is this heart that believes the heart of stone that everyone is born with?

And aren't you saved the moment you believe? This says "Will be"

[JamesFLC]

How I think Paul clarifies what he means

Rom 10:10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

11) For the Scripture says, Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.

12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

He is affirming that "all who call" on the Lord/confess Him will be saved. Not that these things are what save.

I hope that helps!

[dbzgtcrazy]

@JamesFLC

FWIW, I think it's important to distinguish between different ways the Bible speaks of "salvation" or being "saved." Regeneration is part of salvation, but not all of it. Often, Scripture speaks of "salvation" by emphasizing the other aspects of it: justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification. Regeneration is the Spirit's work through the Gospel, and is what causes a person to believe the gospel and repent; after this they proceed to be saved in all the other ways

[aarancel]

Beautifully explained. Thanks be to God!

[jaminhubner]

absolutely fabulous.

[Ferrante1978]

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

[jwuonog]

This made me so excited. The Gospel is exciting. Christ made me alive.

[millball]

@jwuonog Amen :)

[illbehonest]

Amen. So true the scripture is.