Lol I hate people who are offended be every little thing, I mean what IS the right thing to say to these people that won't get them going on a temper tantrum?
Sir, you would be a great father. hopefully you will have a reasonable amount of healthy children. This girl in the elevator is one of the reasonst why we here in Europe think that most Americans are stupid.
but, he asked for coffe in an elevator. he is a creep and should have his cock cut off and jailed for life! i mean, can't a girl have some privacy? why did he even go into that elevator? surely rapist creep
@drditup "why did he even go into that elevator?" Why the fuck wouldn't he? Is this woman the queen of elevator transportation? No, i seriously don't think so. It's not against the law to ride an elevator with two or more individuals. Also, how do you know he wasn't on the elevator first? Are you just being arrogant about this because you feel that this man should have never said a damn WORD in that elevator? If this really offends you, then how about you just stop watching TAA's videos you cunt
all of you are committing potential sexual assault RIGHT NOW but you dont even know it (but you should you awful oppressive men trying to oppress womyn (i say womyn because woMAN is awful and oppressive and womyn is unique and not fucking stupid))
@PaperhatMan It might be worth reminding you that all Rebecca said was that it's creepy for someone to try to pick her up at 4 a.m. while she's alone in an elevator. How did you manage to interpret this as man-hating?
Let me guess: a woman criticised a man's creepy behaviour and you can't understand why it's creepy. This leaves two possibilities: 1) you don't understand some basic social rules, which can't be the case because you're so smart and objective or 2) she's a feminazi.
i find the quote-mining in this amusing, when she talks about misogyny at the end it wasnt about the dude in the elevator, it was about comments left on one of her youtube vids, also you played the soundbite of her elevator story twice and both times cut it off before she explains that her issue was that it was 4am and she was by herself in a city foreign to her, she was saying he should be aware that the scenario is intimidating not his actual words
TJ, you should get in your car and get some interviews. Track down Ron Paul maybe - he does interviews readily with internet folks. I reckon it would be refreshing to see someone with a clue (and wit) doing some interviews. Maybe even get on down to some occupy sites or something. It's time to get out of the basement Amazing Atheist!
seriously, I was waiting for a follow up, for the words that were dubious and crass. That's it?!
Don't take this the wrong way - ensuring any misspoken words are not taken as spiteful.
I find you very interesting - putting his rationale up front, valuing mind over body
I would like to talk more would you like to come to my hotel for coffee - no guilt tripping/pressure like some people put on people when asking out, a request, up front about his intentions
Gladly. The problem isn't with what he said. The problem lies in the fact that they were alone in an elevator and that he was a complete stranger who expressed an interest in getting her alone in his room. Knowing nothing about the guy or his intentions, I think Rebecca's discomfort was understandable - lots of women would feel uncomfortable in that situation, and even some men.
@Phlebas As a very successful insurance agent used to tell me, "you never know until you ask." If she said no thank you and then pursued it aggressively, that would be one thing. If he stopped the elevator and attacked her, that's one thing. If he continued to harrass her wherever she went, that's one thing.
But he asked a question. He did nothing wrong. To assume otherwise is to assume he was a mindreader and should have known what was inside Rebecca's head.
@Haroldbeavis1969 As I've said several times, there's nothing wrong with asking, in principle, but there's a time and a place for it. An elevator at four in the morning is not a good time or place.
I'm curious how the anti-Watson crowd feels about this scene:
@Phlebas So Rebecca Watson (or you?) would have us make a list of all the places one can and cannot approach a person of the opposite sex to strike up a conversation. And this list should apply to all personality types, all levels of inhibition, introverts, extroverts, etc. Why don't I think this is a good idea? I get that Rebecca was offended. I get that she had every right to feel offended. But others might have felt differently. Elevator man should not be expected to read minds.
@Haroldbeavis1969 Some people can't stand the smell of BO, some people tolerate it, and some people get off on it. Since I can't read minds, why should I bother using deodorant?
One thing you really ought to recognise is that Rebecca is not some weird one-off case. A lot of women don't like being hit on by strangers, especially in places where they can't easily escape if the stranger doesn't take "no" for an answer. No need to make a list; just keep that fact in mind.
@GeneralMontague I said a lot, not all or most, though I admittedly suspect "most". Almost all of the big-name female atheist bloggers sided with Rebecca on the matter - Greta Christina, Ophelia Benson, Jen McCreight, Amanda Marcotte, Stephanie Zvan. The women that attacked Rebecca generally attacked a strawman, claiming that Rebecca objects to being hit on generally, regardless of context. So, my citation would be an informal survey of female atheist bloggers.
@Phlebas Wow, resorting to straw men now! Why stop there? Some people dont mind being whipped. Some women don't mind getting raped. You wouldn't happen to argue for theism on your spare time, would you?
Again, Rebecca was not wrong to mind being hit on by the stranger. She was just arrogant to think society as a whole should follow her rules.
@Haroldbeavis1969 It's not a strawman, it's a reductio ad absurdum. You claimed that you can't read a woman's mind, so you shouldn't bother being concerned for her comfort when you hit on her. I was pointing out where that logic leads.
If you want an example of a strawman, here's one: Rebecca claims that she doesn't like being hit on in a particular situation. According to her opponents, she said that men should never approach women, ever. The latter is a strawman.
@Phlebas It's a straw man because you changed the topic of the conversation but to your point, I was guilty of the same thing. Asked my wife about it with regards to how she would have felt as a younger woman, single, at a business convention, on the elevator back to her room, had she been similarly propositioned. She said, "Hell yes, especially if i found him attractive." It all boils down to different strokes. Rebecca had no right to speak for the masses; just herself.
@Haroldbeavis1969 Again, my BO argument wasn't a strawman - I was applying your logic to a different situation to illustrate the problem with that way of thinking.
Anyway. While Rebecca obviously doesn't speak for all women, hers is not some fringe opinion. As I mentioned earlier, most big-name female atheist bloggers took her side on this. As a guy, I would much rather not risk making a woman feel nervous just so that I have a chance at sex. That's the decent thing to do.
@Haroldbeavis1969 "This woman wants humanity to end. Clearly she doesn't want anyone to fuck and have kids."
Just curious, where do you stand on comments like Soundslave's? I suspect you realise that the above is a blatantly dishonest strawman. It's also a very common sort of comment around here. Are you better then this guy, or would I be wasting my time by trying to argue with you?
@Phlebas Boo fucking hoo. Sometimes taking a crap is uncomfortable, it doesn't mean crapping is a bad thing, unless it's on your whimpering, pathetic argument that is.
"Don't Take This The Wrong Way.Oh,I was only joking.My intentions were good.I said I will rape you,but I didn't mean it,you violent sick bitch,you should know that.Oh,I want only to trigger you."-TAA
Pink hair, glasses and a weird emo look this is you average feminist. She was probably never liked by the boys and when she had her first boyfriend he probably dumped her ass in a way that wasn't suitable to her. Then from that point on she had this hate for all men! So feminists are just ugly sad girls that want revenge on the first crushes that hurt them so deep that they put this stupid feminist view on all men and that we are all pigs!
If she thinks she came across a creeper. I've come across some real 'winners' kissy faces and cat calls. Interacting with other ppl means u have 2 sometimes be in weird situations.
@chimneyface With or without feminism, inconsiderate guys will creep women out when they hit on them, though feminists may be more willing to call them on it. Thanks to many feminist writers and bloggers, these guys may learn to empathise with women, making social interactions a lot easier for them. It's hard to see the downside, really.
@chimneyface but the thing is, the guy we're talking about in this situation wasn't being inconsiderate. Yet he is still being chastised for doing nothing wrong. I don't want to be chastised for hitting on women. There is a right way to go about doing it and a wrong way, but both will be chastised. This guy didn't do anything wrong
@chimneyface He did do something wrong. There are places where it's okay to pick up women and places where it's not okay. Bars, nightclubs, and parties are okay. Darkened alleys, underground parking lots, and elevators are not okay. Listen to what feminists have to say, and you may understand why this is the case.
@Phlebas Because a hotel elevator is about the same as some shady alley. All she had to say was "no", and if he did anything more, then it would be a problem.
@WarheadPyro If she had said "no" and the guy decided to force the issue, then what options would Rebecca have had? She was vulnerable in the elevator, and that's why elevators are not a great place to try to pick up women.
@Phlebas if youre so paranoid that you are worried about getting raped because "oh you wanna come back to my place" in broad daylight maybe you should just stay home all day.
Anyway, I'm a guy, so rape isn't really a big personal concern. I guess I might be nervous in a prison shower room, though. And that's kind of the point - this isn't about being paranoid; it's about being justifiably nervous in certain risky situations. Elevator Guy confounded the situation by inviting her up to his place.
@sociopathicregret It was in an elevator at 4:00 a.m. The two of them were alone together. The fact that there were lots of other people in the hotel doesn't change that fact.
@sociopathicregret No, it really doesn't. If he had decided to rape her when she said "no", there's no guarantee that other people in the hotel would have heard the commotion. That's why it was creepy for him to invite her to his room in the elevator instead of a more public space.
I swear, getting an anti-feminist to understand basic decency is like trying to get a creationist to understand natural selection. It's like there's some sort of mental block.
@Phlebas oh yeah youre right because it wasnt perfectly public and hes probably a rapist its like teh worst thing ever. youre just some pseudo-intellectual flametard, have fun flaming loloolollol
@sociopathicregret Correct; it wasn't a public space so there was an element of danger. I never said that the guy was probably a rapist and I never said that his creepy behaviour merited anything more than the mild rebuke that it got on Rebecca's video. Not that you care; your disdain for feminists clearly trumps your ability to argue honestly or think critically.
You might find this youtube video interesting: ?v=8_yr2LDVObs
if you are constantly picking the wrong situation I would understand that bad rate - this is all about reading the signals. 90/10 just tells me - you could have plenty of sex, you're just not doing it right.
Some women are just fucking stupid, they act like if a simple thing like a question is such a big deal. And they'll blow out of proportion the way it is asked as well.
she didn't say the guy was "way out of line", but you are really taking this out of context... 4am in the morning, and she said she was wrecked, going off to bed, and then he picks the lamest pickup line anyone could think of? Also he hadn't talked a word to her before that, so he should have really anticipated the answer, and said to himself "don't bother". So her advice "don't do that" makes perfect sense to me.
@realraven2000 Finally! I've been following the comments on this video for about a week - call me a masochist - and in all this time, you're the first person I've seen here with a sane point of view on the matter.
@Apjooz Find another girl to hit on, maybe? The point is it was completely pointless to ask - look at the context; he came across as a stupid dick IMO.
And oh yeah, if you were a man, you would know that for men, sex is a number game. If a man thinks don't bother in 90 % of the situations, he is about 10 times less likely to have sex.
@Phlebas Either stop calling both genders with gender-specific cuss words, or address both the genders with gender-specific cuss words when pissed off by either of them! I'd prefer the former, what say you? Insult is not gender-blind, ya know!! It hurts both men and women. Only difference is the men are judged severely when using the cuss wrods, while women aren't at all.
@gkhinduatheist As I said, "bitch" and "cunt" carry baggage that "dick" doesn't. Calling a woman a cunt draws attention to the fact that she's a woman. Calling a man a dick seems like more of an acknowledgement that he's a man.
@Phlebas Buddy, you need citations? Just listen to the feminist rhetoric!! Enough said! Like I said, if an asshole/dick can be called an asshole/dick respec. without remorse from any quarters, so should a bitch/cunt. BTW, are you a woman/mangina, as you sound inherently partial towards women is obvious. You can stomach "asshole" and "dick" (no doubt, since you aren't in the firing line), but your bgioted mind can't stomach "bitch/cunt"(as you are now probably in firing line).
@Phlebas Ok you're male. When you see a woman/man, do you think "Oh golly, i want to rape her/him!"?
Assuming you have actually had sexual activity with another individual, if they had said "no thanks, i'm not interested" would you drag them away and force yourself upon them?
I suspect the answer is no to both questions. Why then assume that every other man on this planet is just itchin' to perform the worst act of violation one can inflict on another human being?
so what if he's hitting on her? feminism is being taken too far, you've got your rights now shut the fuck up. if it wasn't for the likes of guys making the first move (like in the elavator) then relationships would never start! WOMEN!!! :@
@connoneill95 "feminism is being taken too far, you've got your rights now shut the fuck up."
An analogy: in principle, atheists have equal rights to everyone else in most western countries. So why don't atheists just shut up? Because anti-atheist bigotry still exists. Because religion is still way too pervasive.
Same goes for feminism. Just because women can vote now doesn't mean that misogyny and patriarchy are dead. TJ demonstrates this clearly.
@Phlebas What is he demonstrating? That he has a free thinking opinion? That he doesn't see a problem with a man asking a woman for coffee and conversation or even sex if that was his ultimate goal? Are you trying to say that anyone- scratch that, any man who hits on a girl is a misogynist? Are men supposed to be submissive in all rolls except for those which benefit women? Am I a misogynist because I don't agree with feminism?
@gator0713 Rebecca's point was that there are some situations when it's not appropriate for men to hit on women. TJ, you, and many other commenters suggested that she was claiming that men should never try to pick up women. It's a blatant strawman, and it suggests to me that you're more concerned about villifying feminists than engaging in any sort of skeptical inquiry. This is a pretty strong hint that TJ and company have some misogynistic tendencies.
@Phlebas So any time a man wants to have coffee and talk with a woman its ultimately about sex? What if he just wanted to talk, like he said, or if he was gay? When a man talks it doesn't mean he's hitting on the person he's talking to. Also, what the hell is this issue if he was hitting on her? If the situation were reversed would there be an issue? If she had said, "I think you're interesting, would you like to come to my room for coffee?" to him, would you have been up at arms
@gator0713 "What if he just wanted to talk, like he said, or if he was gay? When a man talks it doesn't mean he's hitting on the person he's talking to."
Doesn't matter what his intentions were. The creepiness is from the fact that he approached her while she was alone in an elevator and invited her up to his room.
"If the situation were reversed would there be an issue?"
Men generally don't have to worry about being raped by women, so probably not.
@Phlebas But it really isn't a strawman argument - because there is no clear-cut universal understanding of when it is appropriate for PEOPLE to hit on other PEOPLE. If you cannot tell beforehand whether or not ir is appropriate, you are left with never being able to take that action. What I find really disturbing about feminists is their own blatant sexism. If it had been a woman asking her to coffee, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
@WoobaOne "But it really isn't a strawman argument - because there is no clear-cut universal understanding of when it is appropriate for PEOPLE to hit on other PEOPLE."
It is indeed a strawman argument. Rebecca clearly said that her problem was being invited up to this guy's room while she was alone in an elevator. It's dishonest to say that she even suggested that men should never hit on women.
@WoobaOne "If you cannot tell beforehand whether or not ir is appropriate, you are left with never being able to take that action."
There's no clear-cut rule, but I would recommend a rule of thumb. Put yourself in the woman's shoes and remember that rape is a real concern for women. With that in mind, try not to do anything that would make them nervous.
@Phlebas Your suggestion doesn't really solve anything. Asking for coffee is not rape. Asking someone in an elevator if they want to have coffee with you incurs NO HIGHER RISK OF RAPE than was already present just by BEING in the elevator. This again shwocases the femininst attitude that allmen are just rapists to be feared....and really, how do you expect people to take feminism seriously when you ask people "not to do anythign that might make them nervous" (a totally amgibuous request).
@WoobaOne He invited her up to his room. Rebecca was in a situation where she had to worry about what he would do if she said "no". If you're going to reject a potential rapist's request, you don't want to be alone with the guy.
"This again shwocases the femininst attitude that allmen are just rapists to be feared"
@Phlebas Exactly how is this a strawman argument when you have already made the assertion that all men need to be feared as rapists? All I am doing is pointing out the fact that this is a sexist stance, which is no more valid than caliming women who wear skimpy clothing "Want it". The situation did not change just because the guy asked her to coffee. If he wanted to rape her, her answer would make no difference.
@Phlebas Sorry - Potential Rapists. Same thing, You are still demonizing them based solely on their sex - regardless of the fact that the guy may never have hurt a fly.
An you are wrong on the situation. The danger levels would change if she went to his room, but the danger levels in the elevator do not. Her answer makes no difference. His asking the question makes no difference. Once you are in the elevator the danger levels are set.
@WoobaOne From Rebecca's perspective, the man's potential as a rapist increased when he invited her up to his room. Here's the possible scenario that Rebecca may have considered: rapist asks her to his room. If she says yes, she gets raped there where she's much more vulnerable. If she says no, she might get raped in the elevator where she's slightly less vulnerable. If the man had said nothing, she might not have thought much of it.
@Phlebas What evidence did she have that he was a potential rapist? Because he had a penis? Is that all it takes for a man to be considered a sexual predator.
Forgive me if it sounds simplistic, but it strikes me that a would be rapist wouldn't gently suggest they maybe go have a coffee if she would like to.
If he had lept upon her after her refusal, damn right he should be vilified. As it is, he was just someone who was attracted to another human, it doesnt deserve a youtube debate.
@Spiderpope Everybody you meet is a potential rapist. Men have a much higher potential to be rapists and since women are more likely to be rape victims, it makes sense for them to be on their guard.
Elevator guy probably wasn't a rapist, but how could Rebecca have known that at the time? Can you really blame her for being creeped out?
@Spiderpope You misunderstood. When someone knows nothing about a stranger, it's reasonable for them to think that there's a non-zero probability that the stranger is dangerous.
As for slagging off an innocent man, what do you mean by "innocent"? He's probably not a rapist, but that's not what he was being criticised for. He was being criticised for acting in a creepy manner, which seems pretty fair.
@Phlebas He did absolutely nothing wrong so no its not fair at all.
And no its not reasonable to think that every stranger is a rapist, thats a fairly extreme level of paranoia not backed up at all by statistics. I dont know what horrible events have twisted you into thinking our sex deserves to be villified and treated with constant suspicion, but i feel sorry for you since you have apparently been convinced that you're a rapist waiting to happen.
@Spiderpope He did do something wrong. He acted like a creep and so he got called out on it.
And once again, you really don't seem to get my "every stranger is a potential rapist" point. If you know absolutely nothing about a stranger, then from YOUR perspective, that stranger can be a potential anything. From my perspective, I know I'm not a rapist, but I can't expect strangers to know that.
@Phlebas He asked a woman if she would mind spending more time with him. That is not acting like a creep nor acting like a wannabe rapist. He didnt force himself on her, he didnt try and have a grope, and since he said "dont take this the wrong way" he probably wasnt even looking for sex.
And once again you dont seem to get my point that viewing every stranger, no matter where or when you encounter them as a potential rapist is extremely paranoid.
@Spiderpope I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, here. The creepiness factor comes from the fact that he was alone with her in an elevator (where she was vulnerable), and that he was asking her up to his place (where she would have been more vulnerable).
It's not paranoid to view every stranger as a potential rapist. Just keep in mind we assign probabilities to the potential based on context and knowledge of that person. Creepy context = higher rapist potential.
@WoobaOne "how do you expect people to take feminism seriously when you ask people "not to do anythign that might make them nervous" (a totally amgibuous request)."
It's not that ambiguous. I presume you have the capacity for empathy - putting yourself in someone else's shoes and making a reasonable guess about how they feel in any situation. Try using that.
@WoobaOne "What I find really disturbing about feminists is their own blatant sexism. If it had been a woman asking her to coffee, we wouldn't be having this discussion."
Probably not. Men generally aren't worried about being raped by strange women.
@Phlebas Again...totally sexist. If you are assuming that a man is going to rape you solely based on his sex you are being sexist. If you look at a situation and cannot interchange the sexes without cvhanging your perception of the situation, you are being sexist...exactly what the feminists claim they are fighting against.
@WoobaOne The simple fact of the matter is that most rapists are men and most rape victims are women. There's a very good reason why fear of rape tends to go in just the one direction.
@Phlebas The direction of rape really has nothing to do with the arbitray and sexist assumption that all men are rapists who need to be feared. Blacks are convicted of crims far more than white people are. Would you say it is justified for white people to treat all black people as criminals?
@WoobaOne Strawman again. Feminists don't assume that all men are rapists. However, all men are potential rapists, just as every stranger you meet, man or woman, is a potential serial killer. You can never know for sure, and given that rape is disturbingly common, women are right to be on their guard.
@Phlebas There is a difference between being on your guard (in this case declining an invitation to coffee) and demeaning a person based SOLELY on their sex. There is a further difference between being creeped out and going out into the world to again demonize someone solely because of their sex.
Interestingly enough, if you take the definition of rape some feminists propose, and substitute "female" every time it says "male", it even the odds of rape up between the sexes nicely.
@WoobaOne Yes, there is a difference between being creeped out and demonizing all males. What I don't get is why you think Rebecca is doing the latter.
@gator0713 "Am I a misogynist because I don't agree with feminism?"
That's a bit more complicated. There are many different types of feminism, some of which are rooted in ideas of fairness and equality, and some of which are a just plain crazy and unworkable (eg. Andrea Dworkin's brand). If you're going to write off all feminism as if it's all crazy, then yes, you are a misogynist.
@Phlebas A better analogy would be the case where atheists have already been accepted into society - and then start campaigning to eliminate religion no matter where it is practiced. Women have reached the point where in many cases they have already achieved equality - and are no fighting to reduce or eliminate the rights of men. Take Rebeeca for example...boiled down, what she is saying is if you are male you should not be speaking to her unless she gives you permission. Silence little slave...
@WoobaOne "Women have reached the point where in many cases they have already achieved equality - and are no fighting to reduce or eliminate the rights of men."
Political equality is not the same as social equality. Women have political equality but misogynistic attitudes are still pervasive. This is what a lot of modern feminism addresses.
@Phlebas Pray tell, give examples of these pervasive misogynistic attitudes - and give me examples of how I personally have contributed to this enough that you feel good about marginalizing me because of my sex.
@WoobaOne Okay. A woman makes a comment about a guy's rude behaviour on the Internet. Guys go apeshit and procede to call her an ugly cunt for daring to tell men how to act.
Now here's a thought experiment: what if a guy complained about, say, gum-chewing. Clearly, not everyone would agree with him, but can you imagine him getting deluged with hatemail by all the pro-gum chewers?
@Phlebas Okay...let's take your thought experiment. Let's say a person complains about gum-chewing. But they only complain about Black people who chew gum. White people chewing gum doesn't illicit a response. Then this person puts a sign up that says "Don't be a Nigger" when they gave public speeches about white rights. How much hate mail would they get - not because they complained about gum chewing, but because they were being blatantly racist.
@WoobaOne That would be blatantly racist, mainly because there's no reason to single out black people. There is a reason for women to fear strange men, however.
@Phlebas But black people make up the vast marjority of the criminal population in our prisons. By your logic, this means you should single out ALL black people as criminals. Do you see what you are doing? You are demonizing all men - and then turning around and saying that because they are demons, they do not deserve the respect given to others.
@WoobaOne Every stranger you meet is a potential criminal. We might judge the potential for that person to be a criminal based on things like the setting, body language, sex, and how they dress - same way that a woman might judge the potential for a man to be a rapist. Context matters - I'd be more worried if I met a drugged-out looking white guy in a dark alley than a well-dressed black man reading a newspaper on a park bench.
@Phlebas Now you are just rationalizing your choice to treat all men as poorly as you wish. Rebecca stepped past being on her guard and moved into the realm of attacking this man based solely on his sex - even after it was shown without a doubt that he was not a rapist in this case. Please tell me how days after she has left the elevator, she still has to be ON HER GUARD from this guy.
@WoobaOne You're completely missing the point. She was justifiably on her guard at the time. The guy could have been a rapist and she had no way of knowing that. He was being creepy - unintentionally, I'm sure, but it still warrants criticism.
She's not attacking him based on his sex. She's criticising him because of his behaviour.
@Phlebas You can't say that - because we have already established that if a woman had asked the same question, it would not have been a bid deal. All that leaves behind....is his sex, or rather, her twisted perception of his sex that allows her to treat him as less than human.
@WoobaOne He was a potential rapist because of his sex, because of the setting, and because he invited her into a situation where she'd be more vulnerable. It's a combination of all of these factors. If he had chatted her up at the bar, shared some drinks, then invited her to his room, she might not have perceived it as creepy. Again, context matters.
And again, men are more likely to be rapists than women. Why shouldn't this factor into the equation?
@Phlebas Okay, I can see the way you think. Why is it wrong to talk to someone and invite them into your place? Do you know in many studies women make up 40% of all domestic violence cases? You probably don't believe that cause your a crazy feminist nut...but it's true. I have myself been hit by different girlfriends because they were in a bad mood. Should I scream at the top of my lungs at a girl that invites me somewhere? Your a bigot.
@Phlebas P.S.- How is chatting up some girl at a bar after drinks and then inviting them to your place make you any less vulnerable? Your not any less safe.....in fact because you've been drinking....your more vulnerable? This girl is a bitch and so are you. That guy did nothing wrong and she verbally abused him and then made a video about it. Why? What did he do? You suck.
@Flipper79able A woman would feel less vulnerable if they got a chance to know the guy before spending any time alone with him. But you're right, getting her drunk would not be a cool move; when I said "over drinks", I wasn't really thinking of it being to the point of drunkeness.
@Phlebas Funny - you do realize that many feminists would say that if you slept with a woman after ANY number of drinks, it constitutes rape. Sounds like a no-win situation....
@WoobaOne Most feminists would say that it's wrong to take advantage of a woman with impaired judgment, and I agree with that. It seems like a stretch to say that a woman isn't able to consent after a glass of wine or two - I'm curious if you can name any feminists who say otherwise.
Anyway, even if there are some feminists out there who say that, I don't agree with them. As I said earlier, feminism isn't a unified ideology. Feminists can disagree with each other.
@WoobaOne "Take Rebeeca for example...boiled down, what she is saying is if you are male you should not be speaking to her unless she gives you permission."
She says no such thing. What she's saying is that if you're going to hit on her while she's alone in an elevator, she'll think you're acting creepy. You're doing that whole strawman thing again.
@AmalieHovd So, it's OK to call men "biological accidents", "disposable objects" and what not under the pretext of "gender equality" ? A bitch is a bitch bcos she is a bitch and thus will be termed a bitch, just like a bastard or an asshole deserves to be called one. Same goes for the cunts too. If you lot want gender equality, then let it prevail ON ALL FRONTS!!
@gkhinduatheist Um... who's calling men biological accident and disposable objects under the pretext of gender equality? Citation please?
And I agree with AmalieHovd. It's not right to call a black person a nigger, even if you don't like him. It's not okay to call a gay person a faggot, even if you don't like him. Same principle applies for "bitch" and "cunt".
@Phlebas So all those names are wrong - but Rebecca Watson is right to use slides in her lectures that say "Don't be a dick"? God forbid you call her a cunt because that degrades women - but degrading men is fine. That is sexism....
@WoobaOne "So all those names are wrong - but Rebecca Watson is right to use slides in her lectures that say "Don't be a dick"?"
"Dick" doesn't really carry all the same baggage as "bitch" or "cunt", and is generally considered to be a fairly mild insult. The words are not comparable and it's disingenuous to suggest that they are.
@Phlebas What you have jsut said is the problem with modern feminists. They consider it fine to exhibit a behavior towards men, and then revile men who exhibit that same behavior. Bitch, Cunt, Dick - they are all DEROGATORY terms based on sex. Who are you to judge how people will interpret that term? Who are you to marginalize men and say "it isn't that bad for men - just suck it up". It just shows that feminism is no longer about equality or equal right, Feminism has become a massive hypocrisy.
TJ, dont you understand women? Since we are all psychic and already know whether the girl would be willing to have to coffee with us before we actually ask, if we ask her out for coffee even though we already know she isnt interested we are disgusting troll pervs, duh. If shes attracted to you of course and you ask her out for coffee, well, then she gets all giggly and shy. Girls just want a guy who can read their mind, thats all
WHAT THE FUCK??!!! He asked her for a cup of coffee.....for fuck's sakes! How can that be seen as a hit on her?? So......anything that sounds like it could possibly be a hit on, makes the person that hits on them, A PERVERT/RAPIST!???? THE FUCK KIND OF LOGIC IS THAT!!! AND WHO FUCKING CARES ABOUT HER IDIOTIC/OVER THE TOP RESPONSE TO AN EVERYDAY/NORMAL SITUATION??!!!
I haven't heard of any of these apparently popular atheist youtubers. Can anyone point me to some of the most popular atheist peoples, cuz I'm feeling left out.
How how how how how! Is asking a girl for coffee misogynistic? HOW!?!? If that's the case then surely some percentage of relationships in the world started off with a misogynistic premise?
@DuchessvonAhlefeldt *Facepalm* It's not misogynistic to ask a woman out for coffee. Here's the thing, though: nobody is saying that it is. This is just another strawman argument that keeps getting trotted out by the anti-Watson crowd.
Rebecca's gripe was that it was creepy for a stranger to ask her up to his room while the two of them were alone in an elevator. She's right. There are more appropriate ways to ask women out.
@DuchessvonAhlefeldt Yes. Put yourself in her shoes: you're alone in a strange country and a stranger comes up to you and invites you up to his room. It's creepy. I'm not saying that the guy in the elevator was a bad person, but he really wasn't thinking this through.
what if all men accused women for being prostitutes and rapists when they hit on guys.
and also, if feminists and such view men as sex hungry pigs which only wants to satisfy themselves.. then aren´t we viewed upon as sex objects. its just fair that we hit on em and see them as lumps of meath.
I see the problem! wait,no I dont...
AnimeFan4815 1 hour ago
Lol I hate people who are offended be every little thing, I mean what IS the right thing to say to these people that won't get them going on a temper tantrum?
TheVideoGamer5x 10 hours ago
If I saw that chick in the elevator, after seeing this, I would just come out and ask her if she wanted to fuck.
SigSauer2281 12 hours ago
0:55 this is why I love this guy
SigSauer2281 12 hours ago
amazing atheist, your my hero
wastelandninja 1 day ago
Sir, you would be a great father. hopefully you will have a reasonable amount of healthy children. This girl in the elevator is one of the reasonst why we here in Europe think that most Americans are stupid.
team1337er 1 day ago
but, he asked for coffe in an elevator. he is a creep and should have his cock cut off and jailed for life! i mean, can't a girl have some privacy? why did he even go into that elevator? surely rapist creep
drditup 1 day ago
@drditup "why did he even go into that elevator?" Why the fuck wouldn't he? Is this woman the queen of elevator transportation? No, i seriously don't think so. It's not against the law to ride an elevator with two or more individuals. Also, how do you know he wasn't on the elevator first? Are you just being arrogant about this because you feel that this man should have never said a damn WORD in that elevator? If this really offends you, then how about you just stop watching TAA's videos you cunt
00DarkMentality00 1 day ago
@00DarkMentality00 pretty sure it was a joke?
Mistrletsplaygames 1 day ago
This is a great video
littlesweetiesophia 1 day ago 3
all of you are committing potential sexual assault RIGHT NOW but you dont even know it (but you should you awful oppressive men trying to oppress womyn (i say womyn because woMAN is awful and oppressive and womyn is unique and not fucking stupid))
PaperhatMan 2 days ago
@PaperhatMan It might be worth reminding you that all Rebecca said was that it's creepy for someone to try to pick her up at 4 a.m. while she's alone in an elevator. How did you manage to interpret this as man-hating?
Let me guess: a woman criticised a man's creepy behaviour and you can't understand why it's creepy. This leaves two possibilities: 1) you don't understand some basic social rules, which can't be the case because you're so smart and objective or 2) she's a feminazi.
Phlebas 1 day ago
@Phlebas wow typical ableist hate comment i bet you would have all of the innocent LGBTQQIB2CALMOD people executed for being so individual
PaperhatMan 1 day ago
@PaperhatMan It's so much easier to parody a strawman than to examine your own thought processes, isn't it?
Phlebas 1 day ago
@PaperhatMan *sigh*...
I'm considering whether to die single anyway.
GranfaloonIncarnate 15 hours ago
i find the quote-mining in this amusing, when she talks about misogyny at the end it wasnt about the dude in the elevator, it was about comments left on one of her youtube vids, also you played the soundbite of her elevator story twice and both times cut it off before she explains that her issue was that it was 4am and she was by herself in a city foreign to her, she was saying he should be aware that the scenario is intimidating not his actual words
queenboxi 2 days ago
She's lucky to even get male attraction- she's ugly with fucking half red hair.
MikeFromAccounting 2 days ago
Has anyone else noticed most feminists are ugly?
largecouchpotato 2 days ago
If TJ wasn't around, I would be the AmazingAtheist
cthulhuspawn91 2 days ago
Obsession is bad in any side you choose in life. Feminist are obsessed and have become anti-men.
radelgratereaux 3 days ago
maybe she's lesbian.
radelgratereaux 3 days ago
@radelgratereaux She probably is lesbian.
MikeFromAccounting 2 days ago
Judging TJ solely on one mistake he made is retarded.
andyandcarl 3 days ago
OMG the pimple part made me spit my mountain dew all over my keyboard.
xXMCFirestormXx 3 days ago
I laughed SOOO hard at 10:55 XD Staple your fuck to the earth...
xXMCFirestormXx 3 days ago
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xXMCFirestormXx 3 days ago
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Everyone thumbs up this so TJ can see...
TJ, you should get in your car and get some interviews. Track down Ron Paul maybe - he does interviews readily with internet folks. I reckon it would be refreshing to see someone with a clue (and wit) doing some interviews. Maybe even get on down to some occupy sites or something. It's time to get out of the basement Amazing Atheist!
BringBRToTheUK 4 days ago
This woman wants humanity to end. Clearly she doesn't want anyone to fuck and have kids.
soundslave 5 days ago
seriously, I was waiting for a follow up, for the words that were dubious and crass. That's it?!
Don't take this the wrong way - ensuring any misspoken words are not taken as spiteful.
I find you very interesting - putting his rationale up front, valuing mind over body
I would like to talk more would you like to come to my hotel for coffee - no guilt tripping/pressure like some people put on people when asking out, a request, up front about his intentions
Someone, please, EXPLAIN THIS BULLSHIT
GeneralMontague 6 days ago
@GeneralMontague "Someone, please, EXPLAIN THIS BULLSHIT"
Gladly. The problem isn't with what he said. The problem lies in the fact that they were alone in an elevator and that he was a complete stranger who expressed an interest in getting her alone in his room. Knowing nothing about the guy or his intentions, I think Rebecca's discomfort was understandable - lots of women would feel uncomfortable in that situation, and even some men.
Phlebas 6 days ago
@Phlebas As a very successful insurance agent used to tell me, "you never know until you ask." If she said no thank you and then pursued it aggressively, that would be one thing. If he stopped the elevator and attacked her, that's one thing. If he continued to harrass her wherever she went, that's one thing.
But he asked a question. He did nothing wrong. To assume otherwise is to assume he was a mindreader and should have known what was inside Rebecca's head.
She was WAY off base here.
Haroldbeavis1969 5 days ago
@Haroldbeavis1969 As I've said several times, there's nothing wrong with asking, in principle, but there's a time and a place for it. An elevator at four in the morning is not a good time or place.
I'm curious how the anti-Watson crowd feels about this scene:
watch?v=ar9spNzOFPk
Phlebas 5 days ago
@Phlebas So Rebecca Watson (or you?) would have us make a list of all the places one can and cannot approach a person of the opposite sex to strike up a conversation. And this list should apply to all personality types, all levels of inhibition, introverts, extroverts, etc. Why don't I think this is a good idea? I get that Rebecca was offended. I get that she had every right to feel offended. But others might have felt differently. Elevator man should not be expected to read minds.
Haroldbeavis1969 5 days ago
@Haroldbeavis1969 Some people can't stand the smell of BO, some people tolerate it, and some people get off on it. Since I can't read minds, why should I bother using deodorant?
One thing you really ought to recognise is that Rebecca is not some weird one-off case. A lot of women don't like being hit on by strangers, especially in places where they can't easily escape if the stranger doesn't take "no" for an answer. No need to make a list; just keep that fact in mind.
Phlebas 5 days ago
@Phlebas *citation needed*
You shouldn't make such massive assumptions about all or most women like that.
GeneralMontague 5 days ago
@GeneralMontague I said a lot, not all or most, though I admittedly suspect "most". Almost all of the big-name female atheist bloggers sided with Rebecca on the matter - Greta Christina, Ophelia Benson, Jen McCreight, Amanda Marcotte, Stephanie Zvan. The women that attacked Rebecca generally attacked a strawman, claiming that Rebecca objects to being hit on generally, regardless of context. So, my citation would be an informal survey of female atheist bloggers.
Phlebas 5 days ago
@Phlebas Wow, resorting to straw men now! Why stop there? Some people dont mind being whipped. Some women don't mind getting raped. You wouldn't happen to argue for theism on your spare time, would you?
Again, Rebecca was not wrong to mind being hit on by the stranger. She was just arrogant to think society as a whole should follow her rules.
Haroldbeavis1969 5 days ago
@Haroldbeavis1969 It's not a strawman, it's a reductio ad absurdum. You claimed that you can't read a woman's mind, so you shouldn't bother being concerned for her comfort when you hit on her. I was pointing out where that logic leads.
If you want an example of a strawman, here's one: Rebecca claims that she doesn't like being hit on in a particular situation. According to her opponents, she said that men should never approach women, ever. The latter is a strawman.
Phlebas 5 days ago
@Phlebas It's a straw man because you changed the topic of the conversation but to your point, I was guilty of the same thing. Asked my wife about it with regards to how she would have felt as a younger woman, single, at a business convention, on the elevator back to her room, had she been similarly propositioned. She said, "Hell yes, especially if i found him attractive." It all boils down to different strokes. Rebecca had no right to speak for the masses; just herself.
Haroldbeavis1969 5 days ago
@Haroldbeavis1969 Again, my BO argument wasn't a strawman - I was applying your logic to a different situation to illustrate the problem with that way of thinking.
Anyway. While Rebecca obviously doesn't speak for all women, hers is not some fringe opinion. As I mentioned earlier, most big-name female atheist bloggers took her side on this. As a guy, I would much rather not risk making a woman feel nervous just so that I have a chance at sex. That's the decent thing to do.
Phlebas 4 days ago
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@Haroldbeavis1969 "This woman wants humanity to end. Clearly she doesn't want anyone to fuck and have kids."
Just curious, where do you stand on comments like Soundslave's? I suspect you realise that the above is a blatantly dishonest strawman. It's also a very common sort of comment around here. Are you better then this guy, or would I be wasting my time by trying to argue with you?
Phlebas 5 days ago
@Phlebas Boo fucking hoo. Sometimes taking a crap is uncomfortable, it doesn't mean crapping is a bad thing, unless it's on your whimpering, pathetic argument that is.
NobleDelusions 5 days ago
Womans r betterer than mens becuz deir smart. -mum
villadavid4ever 6 days ago
"Don't Take This The Wrong Way.Oh,I was only joking.My intentions were good.I said I will rape you,but I didn't mean it,you violent sick bitch,you should know that.Oh,I want only to trigger you."-TAA
calipsomn 6 days ago
@calipsomn Yeah. TJ's a class act, isn't he?
Phlebas 6 days ago
Pink hair, glasses and a weird emo look this is you average feminist. She was probably never liked by the boys and when she had her first boyfriend he probably dumped her ass in a way that wasn't suitable to her. Then from that point on she had this hate for all men! So feminists are just ugly sad girls that want revenge on the first crushes that hurt them so deep that they put this stupid feminist view on all men and that we are all pigs!
TheUniversalmindify 6 days ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Can I just ask - is creationism really still taught in schools in the US (as in is it a legal requirement)?
'Cause in the UK even my old school, a strong Christian Catholic school taught about the Big Bang and evolution. (<-which I believe)
Edge0fPain 6 days ago
If she thinks she came across a creeper. I've come across some real 'winners' kissy faces and cat calls. Interacting with other ppl means u have 2 sometimes be in weird situations.
Gahuki44 6 days ago
Thank you
DoneWithDogma 6 days ago
This is the all time greatest video ever put on YouTube.
TheKing527 6 days ago
Why is anyone surprised that the chick is just a over-dramatic pain in the ass? They all are.
9000harp 1 week ago
Feminism make me afraid of hitting on girls :(
Hey, how are you? PERV
:( :(
chimneyface 1 week ago 47
@chimneyface With or without feminism, inconsiderate guys will creep women out when they hit on them, though feminists may be more willing to call them on it. Thanks to many feminist writers and bloggers, these guys may learn to empathise with women, making social interactions a lot easier for them. It's hard to see the downside, really.
Phlebas 6 days ago
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@Phlebas You don't see the downside because you're wearing "feminism goggles"
cr4yv3n 6 days ago
@chimneyface but the thing is, the guy we're talking about in this situation wasn't being inconsiderate. Yet he is still being chastised for doing nothing wrong. I don't want to be chastised for hitting on women. There is a right way to go about doing it and a wrong way, but both will be chastised. This guy didn't do anything wrong
chimneyface 6 days ago
@chimneyface He did do something wrong. There are places where it's okay to pick up women and places where it's not okay. Bars, nightclubs, and parties are okay. Darkened alleys, underground parking lots, and elevators are not okay. Listen to what feminists have to say, and you may understand why this is the case.
Phlebas 6 days ago
@Phlebas Because a hotel elevator is about the same as some shady alley. All she had to say was "no", and if he did anything more, then it would be a problem.
WarheadPyro 6 days ago
@WarheadPyro If she had said "no" and the guy decided to force the issue, then what options would Rebecca have had? She was vulnerable in the elevator, and that's why elevators are not a great place to try to pick up women.
Phlebas 6 days ago
@Phlebas oh shaddup
sociopathicregret 6 days ago
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sociopathicregret 6 days ago
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@Phlebas if youre so paranoid that you are worried about getting raped because "oh you wanna come back to my place" in broad daylight maybe you should just stay home all day.
sociopathicregret 6 days ago
@sociopathicregret An elevator at 4:00 a.m. is not broad daylight.
Anyway, I'm a guy, so rape isn't really a big personal concern. I guess I might be nervous in a prison shower room, though. And that's kind of the point - this isn't about being paranoid; it's about being justifiably nervous in certain risky situations. Elevator Guy confounded the situation by inviting her up to his place.
Phlebas 6 days ago
@Phlebas in the middle of a place containing lots of people after a conference, same shit
sociopathicregret 6 days ago
@sociopathicregret It was in an elevator at 4:00 a.m. The two of them were alone together. The fact that there were lots of other people in the hotel doesn't change that fact.
Phlebas 6 days ago
@Phlebas yes it does. the vast majority of men arent rapists or creeps
sociopathicregret 6 days ago
@sociopathicregret No, it really doesn't. If he had decided to rape her when she said "no", there's no guarantee that other people in the hotel would have heard the commotion. That's why it was creepy for him to invite her to his room in the elevator instead of a more public space.
I swear, getting an anti-feminist to understand basic decency is like trying to get a creationist to understand natural selection. It's like there's some sort of mental block.
Phlebas 6 days ago
@Phlebas oh yeah youre right because it wasnt perfectly public and hes probably a rapist its like teh worst thing ever. youre just some pseudo-intellectual flametard, have fun flaming loloolollol
sociopathicregret 4 days ago
@sociopathicregret Correct; it wasn't a public space so there was an element of danger. I never said that the guy was probably a rapist and I never said that his creepy behaviour merited anything more than the mild rebuke that it got on Rebecca's video. Not that you care; your disdain for feminists clearly trumps your ability to argue honestly or think critically.
Phlebas 4 days ago
@Phlebas yeah youre right, i dont care for flametards, and actually im much more intelligent than your dumb immature ass so go fuck yourself
sociopathicregret 4 days ago
@sociopathicregret yes your language really proves your superiority.
theboarman 3 days ago
@theboarman maybe im just too grown up to bother with your stupid arguments
sociopathicregret 2 days ago
why are most religious people "know-it-alls"?
DejectedDonkey 1 week ago
"maybe he just wanted coffee" hah. Maybe, deep inside, she really wanted the "coffee".
novoiperkele 1 week ago
You might find this youtube video interesting: ?v=8_yr2LDVObs
if you are constantly picking the wrong situation I would understand that bad rate - this is all about reading the signals. 90/10 just tells me - you could have plenty of sex, you're just not doing it right.
realraven2000 1 week ago
Some women are just fucking stupid, they act like if a simple thing like a question is such a big deal. And they'll blow out of proportion the way it is asked as well.
SFforlife 1 week ago
she didn't say the guy was "way out of line", but you are really taking this out of context... 4am in the morning, and she said she was wrecked, going off to bed, and then he picks the lamest pickup line anyone could think of? Also he hadn't talked a word to her before that, so he should have really anticipated the answer, and said to himself "don't bother". So her advice "don't do that" makes perfect sense to me.
realraven2000 1 week ago
@realraven2000 Finally! I've been following the comments on this video for about a week - call me a masochist - and in all this time, you're the first person I've seen here with a sane point of view on the matter.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@realraven2000
So what is the alternative then? Don't ask, just shove a dick up her ass? Is that better? The guy was decent enough to ask. Kudos to him.
Apjooz 1 week ago
@Apjooz Find another girl to hit on, maybe? The point is it was completely pointless to ask - look at the context; he came across as a stupid dick IMO.
realraven2000 1 week ago
@realraven2000
So rape it is.
Apjooz 1 week ago
@realraven2000
And oh yeah, if you were a man, you would know that for men, sex is a number game. If a man thinks don't bother in 90 % of the situations, he is about 10 times less likely to have sex.
Apjooz 1 week ago
who drinks with someone until 4 am and gets offended when the person she's spending time with makes a pass at her.
wannabesedated00 1 week ago
Some people have totally forgotten that humans are social ANIMALS.
Gr1ff9 1 week ago
@Phlebas Either stop calling both genders with gender-specific cuss words, or address both the genders with gender-specific cuss words when pissed off by either of them! I'd prefer the former, what say you? Insult is not gender-blind, ya know!! It hurts both men and women. Only difference is the men are judged severely when using the cuss wrods, while women aren't at all.
gkhinduatheist 1 week ago
@gkhinduatheist As I said, "bitch" and "cunt" carry baggage that "dick" doesn't. Calling a woman a cunt draws attention to the fact that she's a woman. Calling a man a dick seems like more of an acknowledgement that he's a man.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Buddy, you need citations? Just listen to the feminist rhetoric!! Enough said! Like I said, if an asshole/dick can be called an asshole/dick respec. without remorse from any quarters, so should a bitch/cunt. BTW, are you a woman/mangina, as you sound inherently partial towards women is obvious. You can stomach "asshole" and "dick" (no doubt, since you aren't in the firing line), but your bgioted mind can't stomach "bitch/cunt"(as you are now probably in firing line).
gkhinduatheist 1 week ago
@gkhinduatheist "Buddy, you need citations? Just listen to the feminist rhetoric!! "
As this feminist rhetoric seems to exist entirely in your head, it's kind of hard for me to listen to it.
"BTW, are you a woman/mangina"
I'm a guy. Not that it matters - my arguments still stand, regardless of my sex.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Ok you're male. When you see a woman/man, do you think "Oh golly, i want to rape her/him!"?
Assuming you have actually had sexual activity with another individual, if they had said "no thanks, i'm not interested" would you drag them away and force yourself upon them?
I suspect the answer is no to both questions. Why then assume that every other man on this planet is just itchin' to perform the worst act of violation one can inflict on another human being?
Spiderpope 1 week ago
@Spiderpope I know I'm not a rapist, but a woman who I meet at the bus stop has no way of knowing this. That's the point.
Phlebas 1 week ago
So fucking well said. Shit xD
Mrcrazy80 1 week ago
so what if he's hitting on her? feminism is being taken too far, you've got your rights now shut the fuck up. if it wasn't for the likes of guys making the first move (like in the elavator) then relationships would never start! WOMEN!!! :@
connoneill95 1 week ago
@connoneill95 "feminism is being taken too far, you've got your rights now shut the fuck up."
An analogy: in principle, atheists have equal rights to everyone else in most western countries. So why don't atheists just shut up? Because anti-atheist bigotry still exists. Because religion is still way too pervasive.
Same goes for feminism. Just because women can vote now doesn't mean that misogyny and patriarchy are dead. TJ demonstrates this clearly.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas What is he demonstrating? That he has a free thinking opinion? That he doesn't see a problem with a man asking a woman for coffee and conversation or even sex if that was his ultimate goal? Are you trying to say that anyone- scratch that, any man who hits on a girl is a misogynist? Are men supposed to be submissive in all rolls except for those which benefit women? Am I a misogynist because I don't agree with feminism?
gator0713 1 week ago
@gator0713 Rebecca's point was that there are some situations when it's not appropriate for men to hit on women. TJ, you, and many other commenters suggested that she was claiming that men should never try to pick up women. It's a blatant strawman, and it suggests to me that you're more concerned about villifying feminists than engaging in any sort of skeptical inquiry. This is a pretty strong hint that TJ and company have some misogynistic tendencies.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas So any time a man wants to have coffee and talk with a woman its ultimately about sex? What if he just wanted to talk, like he said, or if he was gay? When a man talks it doesn't mean he's hitting on the person he's talking to. Also, what the hell is this issue if he was hitting on her? If the situation were reversed would there be an issue? If she had said, "I think you're interesting, would you like to come to my room for coffee?" to him, would you have been up at arms
gator0713 1 week ago
@gator0713 "What if he just wanted to talk, like he said, or if he was gay? When a man talks it doesn't mean he's hitting on the person he's talking to."
Doesn't matter what his intentions were. The creepiness is from the fact that he approached her while she was alone in an elevator and invited her up to his room.
"If the situation were reversed would there be an issue?"
Men generally don't have to worry about being raped by women, so probably not.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas But it really isn't a strawman argument - because there is no clear-cut universal understanding of when it is appropriate for PEOPLE to hit on other PEOPLE. If you cannot tell beforehand whether or not ir is appropriate, you are left with never being able to take that action. What I find really disturbing about feminists is their own blatant sexism. If it had been a woman asking her to coffee, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
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@WoobaOne "But it really isn't a strawman argument - because there is no clear-cut universal understanding of when it is appropriate for PEOPLE to hit on other PEOPLE."
It is indeed a strawman argument. Rebecca clearly said that her problem was being invited up to this guy's room while she was alone in an elevator. It's dishonest to say that she even suggested that men should never hit on women.
cont'd...
Phlebas 1 week ago
@WoobaOne "If you cannot tell beforehand whether or not ir is appropriate, you are left with never being able to take that action."
There's no clear-cut rule, but I would recommend a rule of thumb. Put yourself in the woman's shoes and remember that rape is a real concern for women. With that in mind, try not to do anything that would make them nervous.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Your suggestion doesn't really solve anything. Asking for coffee is not rape. Asking someone in an elevator if they want to have coffee with you incurs NO HIGHER RISK OF RAPE than was already present just by BEING in the elevator. This again shwocases the femininst attitude that allmen are just rapists to be feared....and really, how do you expect people to take feminism seriously when you ask people "not to do anythign that might make them nervous" (a totally amgibuous request).
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne He invited her up to his room. Rebecca was in a situation where she had to worry about what he would do if she said "no". If you're going to reject a potential rapist's request, you don't want to be alone with the guy.
"This again shwocases the femininst attitude that allmen are just rapists to be feared"
You're doing your strawman thing again.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Exactly how is this a strawman argument when you have already made the assertion that all men need to be feared as rapists? All I am doing is pointing out the fact that this is a sexist stance, which is no more valid than caliming women who wear skimpy clothing "Want it". The situation did not change just because the guy asked her to coffee. If he wanted to rape her, her answer would make no difference.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne It was a strawman because you claimed that feminists think that all men are rapists. Potential rapists would be more accurate.
"The situation did not change just because the guy asked her to coffee."
Yes it did. He asked her to make herself even more vulnerable than she already was by coming up to his room.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Sorry - Potential Rapists. Same thing, You are still demonizing them based solely on their sex - regardless of the fact that the guy may never have hurt a fly.
An you are wrong on the situation. The danger levels would change if she went to his room, but the danger levels in the elevator do not. Her answer makes no difference. His asking the question makes no difference. Once you are in the elevator the danger levels are set.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne From Rebecca's perspective, the man's potential as a rapist increased when he invited her up to his room. Here's the possible scenario that Rebecca may have considered: rapist asks her to his room. If she says yes, she gets raped there where she's much more vulnerable. If she says no, she might get raped in the elevator where she's slightly less vulnerable. If the man had said nothing, she might not have thought much of it.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas What evidence did she have that he was a potential rapist? Because he had a penis? Is that all it takes for a man to be considered a sexual predator.
Forgive me if it sounds simplistic, but it strikes me that a would be rapist wouldn't gently suggest they maybe go have a coffee if she would like to.
If he had lept upon her after her refusal, damn right he should be vilified. As it is, he was just someone who was attracted to another human, it doesnt deserve a youtube debate.
Spiderpope 1 week ago
@Spiderpope Everybody you meet is a potential rapist. Men have a much higher potential to be rapists and since women are more likely to be rape victims, it makes sense for them to be on their guard.
Elevator guy probably wasn't a rapist, but how could Rebecca have known that at the time? Can you really blame her for being creeped out?
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas No everyone you meet is not a potential rapist.
Its fine being creeped out. Its slagging off an innocent man i take issue with.
Spiderpope 1 week ago
@Spiderpope You misunderstood. When someone knows nothing about a stranger, it's reasonable for them to think that there's a non-zero probability that the stranger is dangerous.
As for slagging off an innocent man, what do you mean by "innocent"? He's probably not a rapist, but that's not what he was being criticised for. He was being criticised for acting in a creepy manner, which seems pretty fair.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas He did absolutely nothing wrong so no its not fair at all.
And no its not reasonable to think that every stranger is a rapist, thats a fairly extreme level of paranoia not backed up at all by statistics. I dont know what horrible events have twisted you into thinking our sex deserves to be villified and treated with constant suspicion, but i feel sorry for you since you have apparently been convinced that you're a rapist waiting to happen.
Spiderpope 1 week ago
@Spiderpope He did do something wrong. He acted like a creep and so he got called out on it.
And once again, you really don't seem to get my "every stranger is a potential rapist" point. If you know absolutely nothing about a stranger, then from YOUR perspective, that stranger can be a potential anything. From my perspective, I know I'm not a rapist, but I can't expect strangers to know that.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas He asked a woman if she would mind spending more time with him. That is not acting like a creep nor acting like a wannabe rapist. He didnt force himself on her, he didnt try and have a grope, and since he said "dont take this the wrong way" he probably wasnt even looking for sex.
And once again you dont seem to get my point that viewing every stranger, no matter where or when you encounter them as a potential rapist is extremely paranoid.
Spiderpope 1 week ago 34
@Spiderpope I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, here. The creepiness factor comes from the fact that he was alone with her in an elevator (where she was vulnerable), and that he was asking her up to his place (where she would have been more vulnerable).
It's not paranoid to view every stranger as a potential rapist. Just keep in mind we assign probabilities to the potential based on context and knowledge of that person. Creepy context = higher rapist potential.
Phlebas 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@WoobaOne "how do you expect people to take feminism seriously when you ask people "not to do anythign that might make them nervous" (a totally amgibuous request)."
It's not that ambiguous. I presume you have the capacity for empathy - putting yourself in someone else's shoes and making a reasonable guess about how they feel in any situation. Try using that.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@WoobaOne "What I find really disturbing about feminists is their own blatant sexism. If it had been a woman asking her to coffee, we wouldn't be having this discussion."
Probably not. Men generally aren't worried about being raped by strange women.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Again...totally sexist. If you are assuming that a man is going to rape you solely based on his sex you are being sexist. If you look at a situation and cannot interchange the sexes without cvhanging your perception of the situation, you are being sexist...exactly what the feminists claim they are fighting against.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne The simple fact of the matter is that most rapists are men and most rape victims are women. There's a very good reason why fear of rape tends to go in just the one direction.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas The direction of rape really has nothing to do with the arbitray and sexist assumption that all men are rapists who need to be feared. Blacks are convicted of crims far more than white people are. Would you say it is justified for white people to treat all black people as criminals?
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne Strawman again. Feminists don't assume that all men are rapists. However, all men are potential rapists, just as every stranger you meet, man or woman, is a potential serial killer. You can never know for sure, and given that rape is disturbingly common, women are right to be on their guard.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas There is a difference between being on your guard (in this case declining an invitation to coffee) and demeaning a person based SOLELY on their sex. There is a further difference between being creeped out and going out into the world to again demonize someone solely because of their sex.
Interestingly enough, if you take the definition of rape some feminists propose, and substitute "female" every time it says "male", it even the odds of rape up between the sexes nicely.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne Yes, there is a difference between being creeped out and demonizing all males. What I don't get is why you think Rebecca is doing the latter.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@gator0713 "Am I a misogynist because I don't agree with feminism?"
That's a bit more complicated. There are many different types of feminism, some of which are rooted in ideas of fairness and equality, and some of which are a just plain crazy and unworkable (eg. Andrea Dworkin's brand). If you're going to write off all feminism as if it's all crazy, then yes, you are a misogynist.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas A better analogy would be the case where atheists have already been accepted into society - and then start campaigning to eliminate religion no matter where it is practiced. Women have reached the point where in many cases they have already achieved equality - and are no fighting to reduce or eliminate the rights of men. Take Rebeeca for example...boiled down, what she is saying is if you are male you should not be speaking to her unless she gives you permission. Silence little slave...
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne "Women have reached the point where in many cases they have already achieved equality - and are no fighting to reduce or eliminate the rights of men."
Political equality is not the same as social equality. Women have political equality but misogynistic attitudes are still pervasive. This is what a lot of modern feminism addresses.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Pray tell, give examples of these pervasive misogynistic attitudes - and give me examples of how I personally have contributed to this enough that you feel good about marginalizing me because of my sex.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne Okay. A woman makes a comment about a guy's rude behaviour on the Internet. Guys go apeshit and procede to call her an ugly cunt for daring to tell men how to act.
Now here's a thought experiment: what if a guy complained about, say, gum-chewing. Clearly, not everyone would agree with him, but can you imagine him getting deluged with hatemail by all the pro-gum chewers?
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Okay...let's take your thought experiment. Let's say a person complains about gum-chewing. But they only complain about Black people who chew gum. White people chewing gum doesn't illicit a response. Then this person puts a sign up that says "Don't be a Nigger" when they gave public speeches about white rights. How much hate mail would they get - not because they complained about gum chewing, but because they were being blatantly racist.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne That would be blatantly racist, mainly because there's no reason to single out black people. There is a reason for women to fear strange men, however.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas But black people make up the vast marjority of the criminal population in our prisons. By your logic, this means you should single out ALL black people as criminals. Do you see what you are doing? You are demonizing all men - and then turning around and saying that because they are demons, they do not deserve the respect given to others.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne Every stranger you meet is a potential criminal. We might judge the potential for that person to be a criminal based on things like the setting, body language, sex, and how they dress - same way that a woman might judge the potential for a man to be a rapist. Context matters - I'd be more worried if I met a drugged-out looking white guy in a dark alley than a well-dressed black man reading a newspaper on a park bench.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Now you are just rationalizing your choice to treat all men as poorly as you wish. Rebecca stepped past being on her guard and moved into the realm of attacking this man based solely on his sex - even after it was shown without a doubt that he was not a rapist in this case. Please tell me how days after she has left the elevator, she still has to be ON HER GUARD from this guy.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne You're completely missing the point. She was justifiably on her guard at the time. The guy could have been a rapist and she had no way of knowing that. He was being creepy - unintentionally, I'm sure, but it still warrants criticism.
She's not attacking him based on his sex. She's criticising him because of his behaviour.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas You can't say that - because we have already established that if a woman had asked the same question, it would not have been a bid deal. All that leaves behind....is his sex, or rather, her twisted perception of his sex that allows her to treat him as less than human.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne He was a potential rapist because of his sex, because of the setting, and because he invited her into a situation where she'd be more vulnerable. It's a combination of all of these factors. If he had chatted her up at the bar, shared some drinks, then invited her to his room, she might not have perceived it as creepy. Again, context matters.
And again, men are more likely to be rapists than women. Why shouldn't this factor into the equation?
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Okay, I can see the way you think. Why is it wrong to talk to someone and invite them into your place? Do you know in many studies women make up 40% of all domestic violence cases? You probably don't believe that cause your a crazy feminist nut...but it's true. I have myself been hit by different girlfriends because they were in a bad mood. Should I scream at the top of my lungs at a girl that invites me somewhere? Your a bigot.
Flipper79able 1 week ago
@Flipper79able Oookay. If you think you see the way I think, then you really haven't been paying attention.
I think men should be more considerate in how they decide to pick up women. This doesn't mean I deny or apologise for domestic violence against men.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas P.S.- How is chatting up some girl at a bar after drinks and then inviting them to your place make you any less vulnerable? Your not any less safe.....in fact because you've been drinking....your more vulnerable? This girl is a bitch and so are you. That guy did nothing wrong and she verbally abused him and then made a video about it. Why? What did he do? You suck.
Flipper79able 1 week ago
@Flipper79able A woman would feel less vulnerable if they got a chance to know the guy before spending any time alone with him. But you're right, getting her drunk would not be a cool move; when I said "over drinks", I wasn't really thinking of it being to the point of drunkeness.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas Funny - you do realize that many feminists would say that if you slept with a woman after ANY number of drinks, it constitutes rape. Sounds like a no-win situation....
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne Most feminists would say that it's wrong to take advantage of a woman with impaired judgment, and I agree with that. It seems like a stretch to say that a woman isn't able to consent after a glass of wine or two - I'm curious if you can name any feminists who say otherwise.
Anyway, even if there are some feminists out there who say that, I don't agree with them. As I said earlier, feminism isn't a unified ideology. Feminists can disagree with each other.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@WoobaOne "Take Rebeeca for example...boiled down, what she is saying is if you are male you should not be speaking to her unless she gives you permission."
She says no such thing. What she's saying is that if you're going to hit on her while she's alone in an elevator, she'll think you're acting creepy. You're doing that whole strawman thing again.
Phlebas 1 week ago
I think he almost said "the godfather" at 04:23
Razolo 1 week ago 2
backlash he could have turned into a shark and ate her one she said that she would have coffie
popoo196 1 week ago
i agree that this is a quite meaningless subject, but i don't like that you think its ok to call women bitches and cunts...
AmalieHovd 1 week ago
@AmalieHovd So, it's OK to call men "biological accidents", "disposable objects" and what not under the pretext of "gender equality" ? A bitch is a bitch bcos she is a bitch and thus will be termed a bitch, just like a bastard or an asshole deserves to be called one. Same goes for the cunts too. If you lot want gender equality, then let it prevail ON ALL FRONTS!!
gkhinduatheist 1 week ago
@gkhinduatheist Um... who's calling men biological accident and disposable objects under the pretext of gender equality? Citation please?
And I agree with AmalieHovd. It's not right to call a black person a nigger, even if you don't like him. It's not okay to call a gay person a faggot, even if you don't like him. Same principle applies for "bitch" and "cunt".
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas So all those names are wrong - but Rebecca Watson is right to use slides in her lectures that say "Don't be a dick"? God forbid you call her a cunt because that degrades women - but degrading men is fine. That is sexism....
WoobaOne 1 week ago
@WoobaOne "So all those names are wrong - but Rebecca Watson is right to use slides in her lectures that say "Don't be a dick"?"
"Dick" doesn't really carry all the same baggage as "bitch" or "cunt", and is generally considered to be a fairly mild insult. The words are not comparable and it's disingenuous to suggest that they are.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas What you have jsut said is the problem with modern feminists. They consider it fine to exhibit a behavior towards men, and then revile men who exhibit that same behavior. Bitch, Cunt, Dick - they are all DEROGATORY terms based on sex. Who are you to judge how people will interpret that term? Who are you to marginalize men and say "it isn't that bad for men - just suck it up". It just shows that feminism is no longer about equality or equal right, Feminism has become a massive hypocrisy.
WoobaOne 1 week ago
TJ, dont you understand women? Since we are all psychic and already know whether the girl would be willing to have to coffee with us before we actually ask, if we ask her out for coffee even though we already know she isnt interested we are disgusting troll pervs, duh. If shes attracted to you of course and you ask her out for coffee, well, then she gets all giggly and shy. Girls just want a guy who can read their mind, thats all
TheRhinehart86 1 week ago 2
@fyakilla lol love it! you should, u never know it just might work.
EuroInvicta 1 week ago
Wha? How else do two people EVER meet and enjoy each others' company? Isn't this EXACTLY the ONLY way it can be done?
How do two straight people become friends? Don't they... have coffee or go to lunch? (Gasp!)
Hello, I like you = Please kick my balls.
pburto 1 week ago
WHAT THE FUCK??!!! He asked her for a cup of coffee.....for fuck's sakes! How can that be seen as a hit on her?? So......anything that sounds like it could possibly be a hit on, makes the person that hits on them, A PERVERT/RAPIST!???? THE FUCK KIND OF LOGIC IS THAT!!! AND WHO FUCKING CARES ABOUT HER IDIOTIC/OVER THE TOP RESPONSE TO AN EVERYDAY/NORMAL SITUATION??!!!
baahhhFATALITY11 1 week ago
Swag
MrBuddyHolly1 1 week ago
I haven't heard of any of these apparently popular atheist youtubers. Can anyone point me to some of the most popular atheist peoples, cuz I'm feeling left out.
krakatoa0mikel 1 week ago
How how how how how! Is asking a girl for coffee misogynistic? HOW!?!? If that's the case then surely some percentage of relationships in the world started off with a misogynistic premise?
DuchessvonAhlefeldt 1 week ago
@DuchessvonAhlefeldt *Facepalm* It's not misogynistic to ask a woman out for coffee. Here's the thing, though: nobody is saying that it is. This is just another strawman argument that keeps getting trotted out by the anti-Watson crowd.
Rebecca's gripe was that it was creepy for a stranger to ask her up to his room while the two of them were alone in an elevator. She's right. There are more appropriate ways to ask women out.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas So it creepy because they were alone in an lift?
DuchessvonAhlefeldt 1 week ago
@DuchessvonAhlefeldt Yes. Put yourself in her shoes: you're alone in a strange country and a stranger comes up to you and invites you up to his room. It's creepy. I'm not saying that the guy in the elevator was a bad person, but he really wasn't thinking this through.
Phlebas 1 week ago
@Phlebas If you say so.
DuchessvonAhlefeldt 1 week ago
That bitch is ugly, funny how most feminist women are ugly and uptight.
luciferiexcelsil 1 week ago
"Hey, want some dick?" I gotta try that pick up line some time.
fyakilla 1 week ago 26
what if all men accused women for being prostitutes and rapists when they hit on guys.
and also, if feminists and such view men as sex hungry pigs which only wants to satisfy themselves.. then aren´t we viewed upon as sex objects. its just fair that we hit on em and see them as lumps of meath.
JoeRingo118 1 week ago 3