I feel like I want to defend this music video, but actually my interpretation of it was also that it was highly negative towards women, and I really can't. Basically, I think you interpret the symbolism too narrowly... but I guess it doesn't really matter either way, the end result is similar enough.
What do you think about Alejandro? Lady Gaga made the whole song about 1 guy, and she was a deamon in the whole video... like the above comment i think you need to work on getting women to respect themselves as we well as men respecting them
Good job on this video. It just confirms what I've always believed that most rap "music" (sorry but it really can't be called music) is derogatory to women, and it amazes me how so many young women eat it up without realizing how little self-respect they have.
Anyhow, your videos are well-made. You should have your own channel.
Ah yes, the "edginess" excuse. It's the "it was a joke" of the 2010s. Here's the thing, just like a joke has to actually be funny, edginess has to have actual talent and creativity to go along with it. It is not an end in itself. If I go to Kanye's house, shit in his bed, and then call it art then yes, sure I'm being edgy. But what's the point?
I am a bit confused as to the difference between misogyny and plain old sexism. Can anyone explain?
@kissfan7 Misogyny is the hatred of women simply because they are women. Sexism is the assumption that certain behaviors are 'natural' to men and women simply because they are men or women. Sexism is usually based on 'naturalized' gender roles, meaning that the roles are so reinforced in a culture that we mistake them as being put there by nature. Misogyny is anti-women and based on sexism, but you could say that it works against men being able to ever interact well with women.
Oh come on. "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" is completely feminist and isn't at all about fetishizing female corpses. There is room for artistic expression about death, and just because Amanda Palmer is an attractive woman, that doesn't make her artwork exploitative. Surely there's a better example.
Other than that I agree with everything in this video.
@richlayers Amanda Palmer does not use corpses to be visually erotic. She does provocative work, but she doesn't make violence or mutilated women seem sexy. Her subject matter in the past has included sexual topics, for example "Mister" about an adult man seducing a minor, the vindictiveness she feels after he rejects her and ends with the man in prison. She focuses on complex and negative effects of certain sexual experiences.
Dr Payne Lame is ignorant. There is no hypocrisy here. It's like defending a video about white men killing black men OH its JUST ART. not its not art. This is not a comment about anything or anything of worth substance it's just some asshole making a video sexualizing dead women and thats how it should be treated. As garbage. A lot of Lady Gaga's videos, by the way, have tons of social messages. This, however, does not or has any intent.
This is not an issue of free speech or artistic freedom. This is about normalizing and glamorizing violence - especially sexual violence - against women.
It's also ironic that the female featuring artist is portrayed as being sadistic and domineering and the woman she is torturing just so happens to be herself.
@PompamooseMagique I never said it was wrong in any context but if you are going to depict and show violence against women it better be done with respect and consciousness about the fact that VAW is a social epidemic and that representations of it have very real consequences. It is not something to be glamorized, exotified or sexualized.
@feministfrequency I'd have to agree with you there, yes. Incidently, what are your thoughts on violence towards men and how it is depicted in the media? I find the whole topic on how to present violence fascinating is the only reason I ask. Your youtube stuff is great by the way :)
@PompamooseMagique The difference between the depictions of violence against women in Silence of the Lambs and in Monster is that Silence of the Lambs clearly portrays said violence as reprehensible. Buffalo Bill is a ruthless killer who commits horrible crimes against other human beings. Monster normalizes and fetishizes violence against women.
Of course, VAW is still a problem in crime shows, as it gets used for cheap thrills, but that's a different complaint for a different time.
@spawnieboots Yeah, I did pick a pretty bad example, but it's an interesting debate, because it could be argued Silence of the Lambs is "cheap thrills". I personally believe this type of thing needs to be regulated more, with a better definition of what is and what isn't acceptable, but then one has to concede censorship of any art form (I do recoil slightly and referring to Kanye's ego-splurdge as art, but bare with me) is extremely difficult.
This reminds me somewhat of a similar controversy back in 2002 regarding an ultra-violent shocksploitation film from France called "Irreversible," which was often accused (rightfully so in my opinion) of using graphic images of violence against women for the sole purpose of generating controversy and sales.
When Jay-Z raps "I rape and pillage innocent women and children" I was disgusted! How can the media support someone who wants to rape and pillage women and children?
If you look at Gaga's paparazzi vid you'll see something almost identical. The "sexy" dead models all over the floor. That's the first thing I thought of when I saw this Kanye vid.
Dr Payne, Do not take this video out of context. We're talking about Kanye's video, but yes, the music industry is mentioned. Those female artists as just as equally to blame for allowing themselves to perpetuate stereotypes. I do not believe that modern feminism ignores the role that women have in perpetuating misogyny. Katy Perry, Lady Gaga and others use "feminism" and LGBT rights as marketing ploys. That is very clear to some of us with brains :)
I am a huge rap / Kanye West fan. When I bought the CD, I really liked the song. It had a good beat, loud, good rapping by all the artists. I think it's a good track, and good for getting pumped up. But I agree they screwed up with the video. Kanye should have let the music speak for itself and not made a shocking violent video, as the music was well made. Also some blame has to go to the director, whoever it is (I don't know) as it's likely not Kanye behind the camera.
@peter1191975 i guess u only listen to the beat because the lyrics in this song is offensive and dumb...i cant understand why people listen to music without even hearing the message its sending...jayz even says in the song " i rape and pillage a village of women and children" is that what u consider to be good rapping? thats what u consider a good track? we can blame kanye and all the other rappers if we want but in the end its the stupid people buying and supporting the music thats the problem
@tameone And the Metal band Cannibal Corpse make songs about females being raped by dead bodies, why are rappers the only ones being targeted? Double Standards much?
I really don't think West's and Gaga's uses of the dead-woman trope can actually be compared. Not because West is a man and Gaga is a woman, but because while West tried to "generate controversy" (*snort*), Gaga's use of it in the Paparazzi video actually had something to say about the trope itself and fit into a larger narrative about the destructive nature of fame. And while both were problematic, Gaga actually knew what the hell she was doing. West did not.
The dead bodies aspect is interesting. I don't have evidence to support this, but I'm curious if people respond (or the people who create these videos believe they respond) with less objection to dehumanizing someone if you remove the persons ability to feel pain. And if the people making these vids do think that, that implies they're putting effort into maintaining old sexist imagery rather then creating new images, meaning "effort" can't be the excuse.
I like the video, but I feel kinda strange that you included Amanda Palmer in here. If there's one (popular) female artist who's the antithesis of lady gags and kathy perries and the rest of them, it's her.
Also, "who killed amanda palmer" is supposed to be an allusion to "who killed laura palmer" from "Twin peaks". It's a pop-culture reference, not a glorification of female deadness. Read some of her lyrics. She's a total fame whore, but the woman read a rebellyon. She's a force of good.
@mznk3791 right on. I was about to post this. also, Amanda's dead pics aren't 'sexy' they are full on graphic, wried, disturbing art. I have the poster on my wall, she dose not look a sexy corpse, she looks like a corpse.
folks should check out 'map of tasmania' a song all about empowering woman to not shave there lady parts to conform to porn. or you know just read her blog and listen to anything she says, she's pro-choice, anti beauty standards and utterly feminist .
I like the video's atmosphere, but I really hate the sexism in it. It's...disturbing... to say the VERY least. I hate how artistry these days is reduced to controversy. In order to make headlines, you have to offend someone or everyone. Why does art have to be offensive? I understand that some art needs a social or political agenda, but controversy for the sake of controversy? I don't buy any of mainstream singer's claim at being "artistic".
If a woman, like Lday Gaga does this, then it's 'art' and 'empowering women'
Ahh the hypocrisy of the feminist movement at times.
Rhianna, Katy Perry, Ke$ha etc (who have a bigger influence on teen girls than Kanye or ANY male artist for that matter) do such a GREAT job of representing women in their videos dancing around naked, sexualizing their young fanbase, but THEY'RE fine right?
@drpayne2008 Way to put words in my mouth seeing as I've never actually made a video about any of those women. I *don't* think it's acceptable OR empowering for female musicians to display dead corpses either. I actually do have problems with the way Katy Perry, Lady Gaga et al are sexualized and commodified and the social impact these ubiquitous representations have. That is just a different video and a different topic.
@feministfrequency ok I can accept your personal beliefs on this, and genuinely feel bad for accusing you unfairly, but it's just that I hear such things like that all the time. Bash rap artists (in particular) for having scantily-clad women dancing in their videos but say nothing about Beyonce, Gaga, even Shakira etc and it's annoying.
Oh and btw that Kanye video is poor (misogyny aside) and I think he did it just to get a rise out of ppl. Great artist, but tries too hard to offend nowadays.
@drpayne2008 Uhh, have you ever wondered WHY Beyonce, Gaga, and Shakira perform the way they do? Let me give you a clue- it's not to please other women. They are encouraged, as all women are from birth, to perform their sexuality for the male audience's pleasure and fantasy fulfillment. Men don't have that same pressure and as a result, we hardly ever see them trying to dehumanize themselves for women. It's not these women you should be annoyed with, but the patriarchy.
@feministfrequency Both the video rant and this "rebuttal-rant" have inspired me to click "Subscribe" for the VERY FIRST time. (Quick side note: please don't take offense at the word "rant," it's how I tend to refer to an "airing of grievances.") You're incredibly articulate and, more importantly, you're unashamed to be so. Plenty of women are brilliant, but there's a tendency to act and even THINK they're incapable or in need of (often male) guidance - that’s the most disturbing thing to me.
@feministfrequency It is understandable that you do not find it empowering for female musicians to, as you eloquently put it, "display dead corpses." But it's baffling that you call it "unacceptable." Who are you to decide what artists can and cannot say? Especially female artists? I find it odd that you do not support women's self-governance.
@TheOctopus3 This is not about art, this is about the sexualized, glamorized and eroticized depictions of violence against women. That is NEVER acceptable and I'm out right horrified that folks will defend these images as art.
@feministfrequency violence against men is pretty glamorized too though. (i.e. fight club and every war and boxing movie ever made, as well as most if not all action movies)
@TheOctopus3 How is putting a stick between your crotch, making out with a bunch of nobodies, killing your boyfriend, lighting beds and people on fire, stripping down and partying 24/7, artistic? (Referring to Lady Gaga.) It's not about deciding what is art and what isn't, but when showing wrongful images that manipulate the masses - and influence young adults as so-called "glorification" - IS wrong.
@drpayne2008 I don't think Kanye's target audience is teen girls, but yea objectifying women as sexual objects is perverse; but what is more perverse /offensive is sexualizing DEAD WOMEN. I think you can like the song but not like the sexualized dead women, it is very disturbing. I do get the art argument but depicting dead women is such an unoriginal, cheap, sensationalist way of being controversial. Iou can like the song but not appreciate certain attributes. Feminist critiques are necessary.
Dr Payne, Do not take this video out of context. We're talking about Kanye's video, but yes, the music industry is mentioned. Those female artists as just as equally to blame for allowing themselves to perpetuate stereotypes. I do not believe that modern feminism ignores the role that women have in perpetuating misogyny. Katy Perry, Lady Gaga and others use "feminism" and LGBT rights as marketing ploys. That is very clear to some of us with brains :)
@drpayne2008 Uh, those women never made videos featuring sexualized dead bodies. Necrophilia is a long way off from dancing around in skimpy outfits. I see nothing wrong with being openly sexual any way.
@drpayne2008 Don't go put words into anyone's mouth. You don't speak for women and especially those who identify with feminism. That music video was garbage and not art. If anyone did that I would think what bullshit. Also, why would anyone think seeing sexualized corpses as "empowering"?Idiot.
I am taking your word for it and not watching the video. I trust your judgement so completely on this, that I am not even curious about it. I know that it would just make me angry, and there's enough on the internet and elsewhere for that, already.
Speaking as a male feminist & masculinist: You are awesome. There is no excuse for that kind of art. Art is about creating & sharing something beautiful from one's own experiences or stories. To knowingly glorify what is obviously wrong is just sick.
@ChaosLierLen What do you mean when you say masculinist? I'm used to hearing that term as meaning male-centered and sexist. So, I'm just curious about this other meaning.
I'm unfortunately not very surprised that someone would try and strip away all identity from women just to get off. it's easier to objectify someone if you don't know who they are, or what makes them a whole person. It's pretty common across all mediums. We hven't gotten very far from the "women in refridgerators" depictions have we?
Good to have you back! I never liked Kanye West or the majority of popular rap music for this reason. I'm not saying that all rap artists treat women this way in their media, but quite a lot of the most popular ones do and it tends to grab people's attention and appeal to its audiences by treating women as pieces of meat.
It also seems to fetishize necrophilia...and...well...ew.
@FantasmaLuna But you have Metal bands who do the same thing, I'm not defending this behavior. But bands like Slayer, Cannibal Corpses, and even the Rolling Stones who made the song "Brown Sugar" which was about raping slaves did this. Why is it okay when they do it?
@LuffyBlack It's still absurd, misogynistic and infuriating in all of those cases, that's why that music is shit. Just like Kanye is, and a lot of other sexist rap. I think people should pay attention to the messages in their music more...I always do. Music can be fun, danceable, sexy and exciting without being sexist racist or homophobic.
Haven't seen the video, but I've heard about it. I feel obligated to watch, mostly so I can form my own opinion, but given what's been said here and elsewhere, I think I know what my reaction will be. I'm curious: What are your thoughts on Minaj's role in the video? Are there any rap/hip-hop videos you can recommend that don't degrade women? And how do you feel this differs from Lady Gaga's Paparazzi video, wherein she also utilizes the glamorized dead woman trope?
@rebelliouspixels Oh, I do love Monae, but I probably should have been more specific: Are there any rap/hip-hop videos (by men) which consistently don't degrade/dehumanize women?
(off topic: ZOMG I still rewatch buffy vs edward to this day, mate)
Too bad for Nicki Minaj that her best work by far is on this track… (I have a feeling she's surrounded by bad producers, except for Kanye & Lil' Wayne, everybody seems to try and nudge her into more soul, less rap)
I hadn't heard about this. Just by your description, I am repulsed by the video. Definitely don't think I need to see it. I don't even have anything to say about it. I'm just...repulsed.
I have to admit, I was kind of skeptical it could be -that- bad. ... At the very first second I realized I was terribly wrong. I mean, that is just... wow.
Very well said. Also, I should have listened to you and not tried to watch the video -- I got through about 10 seconds before the visuals combined with that creepy, discordant music made me too disturbed to go on.
One thing you have to credit Kanye for is admitting that he only used the imagery to generate buzz and attention for the video. Although the imagery is socially disturbing regardless, a majority of artists would claim some sort of esoteric meaning and artistic expression. I applaud Kanye for realizing he's selling out women for the sake of a few dollars.
kanye isn't exactly a rocket scientist, chances are he and the people who own him were just trying to make controversy from this, bad press is press nonetheless.
If you wan't misogyny just look at his other videos or those of any other rap sensation , severed body parts are the least of your worries when you realise there's a generation of kids growing up being imprinted with rap culture's ideas of gender roles. this is just the tip of the iceburg.
What really pisses me off about this video, the way you described it (I haven't seen it, nor do I intend to), is--and you can correct me if I'm wrong here--it further distances white and black women from each other, if it doesn't pit them against each other.
... plus he rhymes "sarcophogus" with "esophagus," proving he must use a rhyme dictionary to construct his songs...
You know, I have also noticed this trend to fetishize dead women. I see it as a variation on the robo-woman theme, but I am not sure where to go with that. All I know is rap music has been one of the worst offenders chauvinist wise. Come on, rap industry! No matter your culture or background, we (women) are still the other half of the sky. Learn it, live it.
It'd be just slightly less nauseating, if it weren't for the fact that the shit Kanye's depicting Is Not Just Fantasy. There are real women everywhere that deal with the consequences of his money making "controversy".
Whatever happened to making good music that people like to listen to because it is enjoyable or has meaning? Instead we have a half-assed effort put to a computerized soundtrack with some kind of controversy in order to make sales. A message to record labels everywhere, some of us prefer well-done music to sensationalism!
glad youre back! i always enjoy youre videos as they make me think about recent topics in a intelligent way, honestly youre videos are amazing keep up the good work!
I always love your videos. I tend to get really worked up over stuff like this so people think I'm crazy or a "femi-nazi". It's great to see you just sit and speak intelligently about what's going on. You're a huge inspiration to me!
Disgusting. Man, I don't care if someone has a fetish for dead people. That's the kind of thing they should keep to themselves, even on the internet. Thanks for not forcing me to watch any of that horror, and I'll make sure to steer clear of that crapsack and not give it any money. I always did think Kanye was a douche, and his music sucks.
hey...you're back...we were talking about how the trade off system where one started off by exploiting the racial stereotypes(rap music) but on the sacrifice of women's equality...in fact many of the rappers indicate these are the only types of music that the music labels are willing to put out in terms of rap/ hip-hop...
PS: I got this from my lecture...tell me if I'm wrong about any of this...
I saw a parody of "monster" before I saw the real thing. The parody was kinda funny but I couldn't even get through 30 seconds of the video. It was really disturbing and I couldn't quite pinpoint why it struck me like it did, but I think you said it perfectly.
The excerpt of his song "All Falls Down" that is played at the end of the video really struck me. "The prettiest people do the ugliest things/for the road to riches and diamond rings." Ain't that the truth. What a contrast between his early career stuff and now, when his world view is skewed -- dark and twisted, indeed.
Again, thanks for a wonderful, informative and insightful video! And thanks for the warning. I'm going to be avoiding this music video, that's for sure.
I feel like I want to defend this music video, but actually my interpretation of it was also that it was highly negative towards women, and I really can't. Basically, I think you interpret the symbolism too narrowly... but I guess it doesn't really matter either way, the end result is similar enough.
Chimerathon 4 months ago 15
What do you think about Alejandro? Lady Gaga made the whole song about 1 guy, and she was a deamon in the whole video... like the above comment i think you need to work on getting women to respect themselves as we well as men respecting them
octoberboiy 5 months ago
Good job on this video. It just confirms what I've always believed that most rap "music" (sorry but it really can't be called music) is derogatory to women, and it amazes me how so many young women eat it up without realizing how little self-respect they have.
Anyhow, your videos are well-made. You should have your own channel.
TheBoomViper 5 months ago 4
Ah yes, the "edginess" excuse. It's the "it was a joke" of the 2010s. Here's the thing, just like a joke has to actually be funny, edginess has to have actual talent and creativity to go along with it. It is not an end in itself. If I go to Kanye's house, shit in his bed, and then call it art then yes, sure I'm being edgy. But what's the point?
I am a bit confused as to the difference between misogyny and plain old sexism. Can anyone explain?
kissfan7 6 months ago 20
@kissfan7 Misogyny is the hatred of women simply because they are women. Sexism is the assumption that certain behaviors are 'natural' to men and women simply because they are men or women. Sexism is usually based on 'naturalized' gender roles, meaning that the roles are so reinforced in a culture that we mistake them as being put there by nature. Misogyny is anti-women and based on sexism, but you could say that it works against men being able to ever interact well with women.
samiam2088 5 months ago 22
can you please make a video about katy perry's video ET and what you think about the video and lyrics to the song?
shmoopsy650 6 months ago
Oh come on. "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" is completely feminist and isn't at all about fetishizing female corpses. There is room for artistic expression about death, and just because Amanda Palmer is an attractive woman, that doesn't make her artwork exploitative. Surely there's a better example.
Other than that I agree with everything in this video.
richlayers 8 months ago 15
@richlayers Amanda Palmer does not use corpses to be visually erotic. She does provocative work, but she doesn't make violence or mutilated women seem sexy. Her subject matter in the past has included sexual topics, for example "Mister" about an adult man seducing a minor, the vindictiveness she feels after he rejects her and ends with the man in prison. She focuses on complex and negative effects of certain sexual experiences.
samiam2088 5 months ago 5
Dr Payne Lame is ignorant. There is no hypocrisy here. It's like defending a video about white men killing black men OH its JUST ART. not its not art. This is not a comment about anything or anything of worth substance it's just some asshole making a video sexualizing dead women and thats how it should be treated. As garbage. A lot of Lady Gaga's videos, by the way, have tons of social messages. This, however, does not or has any intent.
Jellobabysnumber1fan 9 months ago 2
This is not an issue of free speech or artistic freedom. This is about normalizing and glamorizing violence - especially sexual violence - against women.
maiafleur 9 months ago 11
Oh my. I just watched it. That shit was nasty.
lizzy8156 9 months ago
It's also ironic that the female featuring artist is portrayed as being sadistic and domineering and the woman she is torturing just so happens to be herself.
satori0ixnay 9 months ago 8
When I watched the 'Monster' video, I wanted to puke I swear, so glad to see I wasn't the only one that thought it was straight up fucked!
missbraindamage 10 months ago
Comment removed
PompamooseMagique 10 months ago
@PompamooseMagique I never said it was wrong in any context but if you are going to depict and show violence against women it better be done with respect and consciousness about the fact that VAW is a social epidemic and that representations of it have very real consequences. It is not something to be glamorized, exotified or sexualized.
feministfrequency 10 months ago 11
@feministfrequency I'd have to agree with you there, yes. Incidently, what are your thoughts on violence towards men and how it is depicted in the media? I find the whole topic on how to present violence fascinating is the only reason I ask. Your youtube stuff is great by the way :)
PompamooseMagique 10 months ago
@PompamooseMagique The difference between the depictions of violence against women in Silence of the Lambs and in Monster is that Silence of the Lambs clearly portrays said violence as reprehensible. Buffalo Bill is a ruthless killer who commits horrible crimes against other human beings. Monster normalizes and fetishizes violence against women.
Of course, VAW is still a problem in crime shows, as it gets used for cheap thrills, but that's a different complaint for a different time.
spawnieboots 10 months ago 5
@spawnieboots Yeah, I did pick a pretty bad example, but it's an interesting debate, because it could be argued Silence of the Lambs is "cheap thrills". I personally believe this type of thing needs to be regulated more, with a better definition of what is and what isn't acceptable, but then one has to concede censorship of any art form (I do recoil slightly and referring to Kanye's ego-splurdge as art, but bare with me) is extremely difficult.
PompamooseMagique 9 months ago
What are your thoughts on Tom Petty's vid Mary Jane's last Dance?
FarBeyondSYL 10 months ago
This reminds me somewhat of a similar controversy back in 2002 regarding an ultra-violent shocksploitation film from France called "Irreversible," which was often accused (rightfully so in my opinion) of using graphic images of violence against women for the sole purpose of generating controversy and sales.
Scifimaster92 10 months ago
When Jay-Z raps "I rape and pillage innocent women and children" I was disgusted! How can the media support someone who wants to rape and pillage women and children?
ProfessorGardad 10 months ago 3
What the actual fuck, that Kanye video is disgusting
jocarroll 10 months ago 2
If you look at Gaga's paparazzi vid you'll see something almost identical. The "sexy" dead models all over the floor. That's the first thing I thought of when I saw this Kanye vid.
SkiptotheLou1991 11 months ago 2
Thank you for this video. I never seem to notice things like this but, my mom does and people always think she is crazy for it >_<
profesoralola 11 months ago
Dr Payne, Do not take this video out of context. We're talking about Kanye's video, but yes, the music industry is mentioned. Those female artists as just as equally to blame for allowing themselves to perpetuate stereotypes. I do not believe that modern feminism ignores the role that women have in perpetuating misogyny. Katy Perry, Lady Gaga and others use "feminism" and LGBT rights as marketing ploys. That is very clear to some of us with brains :)
littlelashy 11 months ago
I'm curious to know what you think about Micki Minaj's verse/appearance?
sarahjanehj 11 months ago 8
Actually, I just heard that the music video has been banned on MTV for glamourizing violence against women. I can't say this loud enough:
Congratulations MTV, for having a conscience for once.
Scifimaster92 1 year ago 16
I am a huge rap / Kanye West fan. When I bought the CD, I really liked the song. It had a good beat, loud, good rapping by all the artists. I think it's a good track, and good for getting pumped up. But I agree they screwed up with the video. Kanye should have let the music speak for itself and not made a shocking violent video, as the music was well made. Also some blame has to go to the director, whoever it is (I don't know) as it's likely not Kanye behind the camera.
peter1191975 1 year ago
@peter1191975 i guess u only listen to the beat because the lyrics in this song is offensive and dumb...i cant understand why people listen to music without even hearing the message its sending...jayz even says in the song " i rape and pillage a village of women and children" is that what u consider to be good rapping? thats what u consider a good track? we can blame kanye and all the other rappers if we want but in the end its the stupid people buying and supporting the music thats the problem
tameone 1 year ago 2
@tameone And the Metal band Cannibal Corpse make songs about females being raped by dead bodies, why are rappers the only ones being targeted? Double Standards much?
LuffyBlack 6 months ago
I really don't think West's and Gaga's uses of the dead-woman trope can actually be compared. Not because West is a man and Gaga is a woman, but because while West tried to "generate controversy" (*snort*), Gaga's use of it in the Paparazzi video actually had something to say about the trope itself and fit into a larger narrative about the destructive nature of fame. And while both were problematic, Gaga actually knew what the hell she was doing. West did not.
EmpressJudge13 1 year ago 21
I never liked Kanye or his music.
UniversalKiwi 1 year ago
The dead bodies aspect is interesting. I don't have evidence to support this, but I'm curious if people respond (or the people who create these videos believe they respond) with less objection to dehumanizing someone if you remove the persons ability to feel pain. And if the people making these vids do think that, that implies they're putting effort into maintaining old sexist imagery rather then creating new images, meaning "effort" can't be the excuse.
Christina Moorshead
Christinamoorshead1 1 year ago
I like the video, but I feel kinda strange that you included Amanda Palmer in here. If there's one (popular) female artist who's the antithesis of lady gags and kathy perries and the rest of them, it's her.
Also, "who killed amanda palmer" is supposed to be an allusion to "who killed laura palmer" from "Twin peaks". It's a pop-culture reference, not a glorification of female deadness. Read some of her lyrics. She's a total fame whore, but the woman read a rebellyon. She's a force of good.
mznk3791 1 year ago 6
@mznk3791 right on. I was about to post this. also, Amanda's dead pics aren't 'sexy' they are full on graphic, wried, disturbing art. I have the poster on my wall, she dose not look a sexy corpse, she looks like a corpse.
folks should check out 'map of tasmania' a song all about empowering woman to not shave there lady parts to conform to porn. or you know just read her blog and listen to anything she says, she's pro-choice, anti beauty standards and utterly feminist .
MsLettyM 11 months ago
I like the video's atmosphere, but I really hate the sexism in it. It's...disturbing... to say the VERY least. I hate how artistry these days is reduced to controversy. In order to make headlines, you have to offend someone or everyone. Why does art have to be offensive? I understand that some art needs a social or political agenda, but controversy for the sake of controversy? I don't buy any of mainstream singer's claim at being "artistic".
HarlequinGypsy13 1 year ago
If a woman, like Lday Gaga does this, then it's 'art' and 'empowering women'
Ahh the hypocrisy of the feminist movement at times.
Rhianna, Katy Perry, Ke$ha etc (who have a bigger influence on teen girls than Kanye or ANY male artist for that matter) do such a GREAT job of representing women in their videos dancing around naked, sexualizing their young fanbase, but THEY'RE fine right?
drpayne2008 1 year ago
@drpayne2008 Way to put words in my mouth seeing as I've never actually made a video about any of those women. I *don't* think it's acceptable OR empowering for female musicians to display dead corpses either. I actually do have problems with the way Katy Perry, Lady Gaga et al are sexualized and commodified and the social impact these ubiquitous representations have. That is just a different video and a different topic.
feministfrequency 1 year ago 374
@feministfrequency ok I can accept your personal beliefs on this, and genuinely feel bad for accusing you unfairly, but it's just that I hear such things like that all the time. Bash rap artists (in particular) for having scantily-clad women dancing in their videos but say nothing about Beyonce, Gaga, even Shakira etc and it's annoying.
Oh and btw that Kanye video is poor (misogyny aside) and I think he did it just to get a rise out of ppl. Great artist, but tries too hard to offend nowadays.
drpayne2008 1 year ago
@drpayne2008 Uhh, have you ever wondered WHY Beyonce, Gaga, and Shakira perform the way they do? Let me give you a clue- it's not to please other women. They are encouraged, as all women are from birth, to perform their sexuality for the male audience's pleasure and fantasy fulfillment. Men don't have that same pressure and as a result, we hardly ever see them trying to dehumanize themselves for women. It's not these women you should be annoyed with, but the patriarchy.
MsGuessit 10 months ago 18
@feministfrequency i vote to see this done please! they also annoy me... :/
niminonono 1 year ago
@feministfrequency do u think that eminem is misogynist as well
Supersomonerandom 1 year ago
@feministfrequency Both the video rant and this "rebuttal-rant" have inspired me to click "Subscribe" for the VERY FIRST time. (Quick side note: please don't take offense at the word "rant," it's how I tend to refer to an "airing of grievances.") You're incredibly articulate and, more importantly, you're unashamed to be so. Plenty of women are brilliant, but there's a tendency to act and even THINK they're incapable or in need of (often male) guidance - that’s the most disturbing thing to me.
UWnic6090 11 months ago
@feministfrequency It is understandable that you do not find it empowering for female musicians to, as you eloquently put it, "display dead corpses." But it's baffling that you call it "unacceptable." Who are you to decide what artists can and cannot say? Especially female artists? I find it odd that you do not support women's self-governance.
TheOctopus3 10 months ago
@TheOctopus3 This is not about art, this is about the sexualized, glamorized and eroticized depictions of violence against women. That is NEVER acceptable and I'm out right horrified that folks will defend these images as art.
feministfrequency 10 months ago 199
@feministfrequency violence against men is pretty glamorized too though. (i.e. fight club and every war and boxing movie ever made, as well as most if not all action movies)
froggymicwop 10 months ago
@feministfrequency How do you feel about his Flashing Lights video?
Deeeeeeeeeeeeez 6 months ago
@feministfrequency
Sadly, this is the times that we have come across. I can't wait for the next movement to hit; maybe it won;t be as degrading. :P
TheInkySea 6 months ago
@feministfrequency what do you think of Lady Gaga's video for Alejandro?
maxTheOG 4 months ago 7
@TheOctopus3 How is putting a stick between your crotch, making out with a bunch of nobodies, killing your boyfriend, lighting beds and people on fire, stripping down and partying 24/7, artistic? (Referring to Lady Gaga.) It's not about deciding what is art and what isn't, but when showing wrongful images that manipulate the masses - and influence young adults as so-called "glorification" - IS wrong.
mzzzhedison 7 months ago
@drpayne2008 I don't think Kanye's target audience is teen girls, but yea objectifying women as sexual objects is perverse; but what is more perverse /offensive is sexualizing DEAD WOMEN. I think you can like the song but not like the sexualized dead women, it is very disturbing. I do get the art argument but depicting dead women is such an unoriginal, cheap, sensationalist way of being controversial. Iou can like the song but not appreciate certain attributes. Feminist critiques are necessary.
BoysForPele1989 1 year ago 4
Dr Payne, Do not take this video out of context. We're talking about Kanye's video, but yes, the music industry is mentioned. Those female artists as just as equally to blame for allowing themselves to perpetuate stereotypes. I do not believe that modern feminism ignores the role that women have in perpetuating misogyny. Katy Perry, Lady Gaga and others use "feminism" and LGBT rights as marketing ploys. That is very clear to some of us with brains :)
littlelashy 11 months ago 4
@drpayne2008 Uh, those women never made videos featuring sexualized dead bodies. Necrophilia is a long way off from dancing around in skimpy outfits. I see nothing wrong with being openly sexual any way.
jointhefkndots 10 months ago 2
@drpayne2008 Don't go put words into anyone's mouth. You don't speak for women and especially those who identify with feminism. That music video was garbage and not art. If anyone did that I would think what bullshit. Also, why would anyone think seeing sexualized corpses as "empowering"?Idiot.
rchan09 10 months ago 5
@rchan09
In Mr. West's defense, I do believe that he is in fact stupid enough to think that there really was some sort of artistic merit in what he did.
VigilanteNighthawk 9 months ago 8
@drpayne2008 When did she ever say she thought all the artists you mentioned were doing quote "...such a GREAT job...". She didn't.
mzzzhedison 7 months ago
I am taking your word for it and not watching the video. I trust your judgement so completely on this, that I am not even curious about it. I know that it would just make me angry, and there's enough on the internet and elsewhere for that, already.
Rozax 1 year ago
Completely agree with you on every point. This Kayne West video is disgusting. Such contempt and hatred! I've never understood misogyny.
I'm a man and I LOVE women!! Kayne West is an idiot and its a shit song even without the sexism.
SpiritFlux 1 year ago 2
Speaking as a male feminist & masculinist: You are awesome. There is no excuse for that kind of art. Art is about creating & sharing something beautiful from one's own experiences or stories. To knowingly glorify what is obviously wrong is just sick.
ChaosLierLen 1 year ago 3
@ChaosLierLen What do you mean when you say masculinist? I'm used to hearing that term as meaning male-centered and sexist. So, I'm just curious about this other meaning.
Qwofacenosehead 1 year ago
I'm unfortunately not very surprised that someone would try and strip away all identity from women just to get off. it's easier to objectify someone if you don't know who they are, or what makes them a whole person. It's pretty common across all mediums. We hven't gotten very far from the "women in refridgerators" depictions have we?
ArcaneSky 1 year ago 3
What is the ideal role for a "woman as human being" in a music video?
TRyanArnold 1 year ago
THANK YOU so much for posting these vids- give me home that there's like minded people out there .xx
emmie4 1 year ago 5
Good to have you back! I never liked Kanye West or the majority of popular rap music for this reason. I'm not saying that all rap artists treat women this way in their media, but quite a lot of the most popular ones do and it tends to grab people's attention and appeal to its audiences by treating women as pieces of meat.
It also seems to fetishize necrophilia...and...well...ew.
FantasmaLuna 1 year ago 4
@FantasmaLuna But you have Metal bands who do the same thing, I'm not defending this behavior. But bands like Slayer, Cannibal Corpses, and even the Rolling Stones who made the song "Brown Sugar" which was about raping slaves did this. Why is it okay when they do it?
LuffyBlack 6 months ago
@LuffyBlack It's still absurd, misogynistic and infuriating in all of those cases, that's why that music is shit. Just like Kanye is, and a lot of other sexist rap. I think people should pay attention to the messages in their music more...I always do. Music can be fun, danceable, sexy and exciting without being sexist racist or homophobic.
LLLeeeeeeeee 5 months ago 5
YOU'RE BACK!
Haven't seen the video, but I've heard about it. I feel obligated to watch, mostly so I can form my own opinion, but given what's been said here and elsewhere, I think I know what my reaction will be. I'm curious: What are your thoughts on Minaj's role in the video? Are there any rap/hip-hop videos you can recommend that don't degrade women? And how do you feel this differs from Lady Gaga's Paparazzi video, wherein she also utilizes the glamorized dead woman trope?
EmpressJudge13 1 year ago
@EmpressJudge13 - I highly recommend Janelle Monáe, everything she does, songs and videos are amazing!
rebelliouspixels 1 year ago
@rebelliouspixels Oh, I do love Monae, but I probably should have been more specific: Are there any rap/hip-hop videos (by men) which consistently don't degrade/dehumanize women?
(off topic: ZOMG I still rewatch buffy vs edward to this day, mate)
EmpressJudge13 1 year ago
Too bad for Nicki Minaj that her best work by far is on this track… (I have a feeling she's surrounded by bad producers, except for Kanye & Lil' Wayne, everybody seems to try and nudge her into more soul, less rap)
funkycoder1 1 year ago
I'm curious, what is your opinion of Lady Gaga?
pottoco 1 year ago 5
This is one of the reasons why people should avoid listening to shallow and commercial music in general. Well made analysis again feministfrequency.
Okhlopkov 1 year ago
I hadn't heard about this. Just by your description, I am repulsed by the video. Definitely don't think I need to see it. I don't even have anything to say about it. I'm just...repulsed.
babileilei 1 year ago
Thanks
LiveVegan 1 year ago
I have to admit, I was kind of skeptical it could be -that- bad. ... At the very first second I realized I was terribly wrong. I mean, that is just... wow.
chibipandora 1 year ago 6
Very well said. Also, I should have listened to you and not tried to watch the video -- I got through about 10 seconds before the visuals combined with that creepy, discordant music made me too disturbed to go on.
meenie7 1 year ago 2
One thing you have to credit Kanye for is admitting that he only used the imagery to generate buzz and attention for the video. Although the imagery is socially disturbing regardless, a majority of artists would claim some sort of esoteric meaning and artistic expression. I applaud Kanye for realizing he's selling out women for the sake of a few dollars.
tassleho 1 year ago 2
Thumbs up if you wish you had heeded her warning and NOT watched the damn video.
jkras27 1 year ago 7
Eh, it's Kayne, are we really surprised?
drew335533 1 year ago 4
kanye isn't exactly a rocket scientist, chances are he and the people who own him were just trying to make controversy from this, bad press is press nonetheless.
If you wan't misogyny just look at his other videos or those of any other rap sensation , severed body parts are the least of your worries when you realise there's a generation of kids growing up being imprinted with rap culture's ideas of gender roles. this is just the tip of the iceburg.
universalJok3r 1 year ago 3
What really pisses me off about this video, the way you described it (I haven't seen it, nor do I intend to), is--and you can correct me if I'm wrong here--it further distances white and black women from each other, if it doesn't pit them against each other.
Sapphira79 1 year ago 3
... plus he rhymes "sarcophogus" with "esophagus," proving he must use a rhyme dictionary to construct his songs...
You know, I have also noticed this trend to fetishize dead women. I see it as a variation on the robo-woman theme, but I am not sure where to go with that. All I know is rap music has been one of the worst offenders chauvinist wise. Come on, rap industry! No matter your culture or background, we (women) are still the other half of the sky. Learn it, live it.
MirandaZ2000 1 year ago 5
Thank you, I am not going to watch it... Sounds nasty!
racenuke 1 year ago
It'd be just slightly less nauseating, if it weren't for the fact that the shit Kanye's depicting Is Not Just Fantasy. There are real women everywhere that deal with the consequences of his money making "controversy".
1oErdoben 1 year ago 4
Spot on and informed
pepkep 1 year ago
Whatever happened to making good music that people like to listen to because it is enjoyable or has meaning? Instead we have a half-assed effort put to a computerized soundtrack with some kind of controversy in order to make sales. A message to record labels everywhere, some of us prefer well-done music to sensationalism!
jaidadraco 1 year ago 4
good to see you're back :)
yeah i saw a snippet of that video and it made me feel terrified. Thanks for doing a video remarking on it.
awesomedinosaur 1 year ago
glad youre back! i always enjoy youre videos as they make me think about recent topics in a intelligent way, honestly youre videos are amazing keep up the good work!
patsybob 1 year ago 3
I always love your videos. I tend to get really worked up over stuff like this so people think I'm crazy or a "femi-nazi". It's great to see you just sit and speak intelligently about what's going on. You're a huge inspiration to me!
SazzyIsSnazzy 1 year ago 190
@SazzyIsSnazzy I know right? I feel like now and days feminist are being treated as
a) social outcast
b) monsters/some kind of freak.
I also think that people have the wrong idea for the whole word itself. Feminist= belief that woman should have rights. That's it.
MuffinGirl94 1 year ago 11
@MuffinGirl94 I know! People always assume I'm a man-hater or I think women are better than men when that is not even close to my beliefs.
SazzyIsSnazzy 1 year ago 3
Disgusting. Man, I don't care if someone has a fetish for dead people. That's the kind of thing they should keep to themselves, even on the internet. Thanks for not forcing me to watch any of that horror, and I'll make sure to steer clear of that crapsack and not give it any money. I always did think Kanye was a douche, and his music sucks.
iwantcandy2 1 year ago 3
hey...you're back...we were talking about how the trade off system where one started off by exploiting the racial stereotypes(rap music) but on the sacrifice of women's equality...in fact many of the rappers indicate these are the only types of music that the music labels are willing to put out in terms of rap/ hip-hop...
PS: I got this from my lecture...tell me if I'm wrong about any of this...
elvali0205 1 year ago
Great job! I always love your videos. Glad you're back!
meemer115 1 year ago 3
Great video. You hit the mark every time. Thanks for being awesome.
lcrippin 1 year ago 70
I saw a parody of "monster" before I saw the real thing. The parody was kinda funny but I couldn't even get through 30 seconds of the video. It was really disturbing and I couldn't quite pinpoint why it struck me like it did, but I think you said it perfectly.
Glad your back.
MsPenchi 1 year ago
There are a lot of beautiful dead women lately. I blame vampires.
weirdoalisa 1 year ago
Great video, as usual.
The excerpt of his song "All Falls Down" that is played at the end of the video really struck me. "The prettiest people do the ugliest things/for the road to riches and diamond rings." Ain't that the truth. What a contrast between his early career stuff and now, when his world view is skewed -- dark and twisted, indeed.
Again, thanks for a wonderful, informative and insightful video! And thanks for the warning. I'm going to be avoiding this music video, that's for sure.
spreadtheawesome 1 year ago 8
glad to see you back :) ur videos are really intelligent and I would definitely vote for you ( in case you decide you wanna be president)
LEALDAN1 1 year ago 4
so... kanye west is an egotistical bastard...
rabidchevy 1 year ago