Keep the teachings coming. Just Sub'ed you. You are 100% correct about the rapture doctrine. We will not gather unto Christ until AFTER the tribulation of satan like Paul said. I think people get confused when deciphering the difference between Gods Wrath at the seventh trump and the Great tribulation of satan. That and the point you already made and that is people only read verses that prove thier point pulling the verse out of context instead of teaching chapter by chapter verse by verse.
@HARLANGENEPARROTT Since assertions need only to be met with assertions then I would reply...if you are involved in a futurist paradigm which ignores the fulfillment of the scriptures you are in extreme error on the timing of the Lord's coming and need to stop.
I completely agree with pastor Bell! I think this man is blessed with the understanding of the word of God. For years I have been upholding this notion about the End being taken place in the future and that some day people are gonna pop out of the grave. I was ignorant then! But two months ago I relinquished these beliefs. And I thank God for revealing the truth to me. I am confident that he can do the same for you. God bless.
I do have a DAKE ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE and I do not agree with many of the things they say in it! Remember the footnotes are their interpretation. It is not the Bible itself. I also have a HEBREW-GREEK KEYWORD STUDY BIBLE. All one need is the bible itself and the Holy Spirit's interpretation of it.
Your theology is so overwhelmingly skewed, you completely rob the scriptures of their meaning and a future hope that is so precious in the bible. Even a well known passage like John 3:16 becomes meaningless because there is no eternal life because guess what, the kingdom's here and we're still dying (no immortal body for us).
This is it. All that God promised. Guess what folks? This is it. You're in it. This is the promised kingdom.
There is no such thing in the Bible as physical Immortality for Christians. Eternal life is spiritual. Read Romans 8:10. "If Christ is in you, the BODY is DEAD. Now, ask yourself (1) Is Christ in you? If the answer is yes, then is your physical body DEAD? Were the Romans physical bodies DEAD? Whatever the BODY is in that text, Paul says it would be RAISED. How can a church full of physically DEAD BODIES read the Bible?
Christ's resurrection: Physical or spiritual? Did he have a body when he appeared to his disciples? Is Christ presently just a spiritual God or is He also a man (with a body)?
I'm not sure I'm following you here. Do you believe in a future physical resurrection? If you don't, you're not a Christian because that is an essential of what defines Christianity. Holding to a "spiritual only" definition of the resurrection is more akin to Jehovah's Witnesses, not Christianity.
The Bible doesn't teach a future physical resurrection. The resurrection is an inner body and an out-of-body experience. It has nothing to do with popping out of graves physically! We shouldn't just read the scriptures verbatim. We should ponder and reason on the scriptures, and let it explain itself. Pray and ask God for the interpretation, wisdom and understanding of his word, through his Holy Spirit, each time before you open the Bible.
The bible should be read using the historical-grammatical method of interpretation which basically involves reading the bible plainly like you would any other piece of literature. I suggest you read 1 Corinthians ch 15
My reply was to your response to me. I don't believe you mentioned the word "rapture" so lets not muddy the issue which is whether or not the bible clearly teaches a physical resurrection, which it does. Bodily future resurrection of the saints is an orthodox Christian teaching. If you deny that, you maybe "religious" but your not a Christian.
You you deny that Jesus' resurrection was a physical one? Notice that "AllthingsFulfilled" will not answer that fundamental question I asked.
I am not religious! And how can you determine that I am not a Christian because I do not believe in a physical resurrection?
Now, I have upheld the view of a physical resurrection for years. And it's just a few months ago I relinquished this belief. The RESURRECTION IS NOT ABOUT BODIES COMING OUT OF THEIR GRAVES! THE RESURRECTION IS BOTH AN INNER BODY AND AN OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE. THE RESURRECTION IS CHRIST, AND CHRIST IS THE RESURRECTION!
Christ appeared unto his disciples enrobed in the same fleshly body that he had prior to his death. But this is not the actual resurrection! There is a reason for which this happened. It was for the purpose of proving to his disciples that it was truly him, and that he lives! Now, had he appear unto them as a spirit being, they would have a hard time believing it was him. God is a spirit. And no man can see him in bodily form. Paul spoke of being absent from the body and pre...
So, Jesus just "enrobed" Himself in his body for the sake us His disciples. He just borrowed" His rotten corpse from the tomb so that He could use it during His disciple visitation. And when he was done with His visit, what then happened to His body? Did He secretly bury it? WOW. And of course, Jesus just appearing to His disciples with a body without really having one of His own wouldn't of course be deceptive at all. Especially considering Jesus' own denial of being a "spirit".
...no matter how much you deny this, it is clear from the scriptures that Christ was resurrected with the same body that he possessed prior to his death! YOUR POSITION, AS FAR AS THE RESURRECTION IS CONCERNED, MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER AND CANNOT BE SUBSTANTIATED BY SCRIPTURE! AND I THANK GOD THAT HE HAS LEAD MY TO RELINQUISH THIS IGNORANT AND FALLACIOUS BELIEF!
O.K. I'm still not clear on what EXACTLY is your understanding of what the resurrection is. Mine is the historical orthodox position. Go into any respectable bible bookstore and pick up any respectable bible dictionary and look the word "resurrection" and simply read it. That's my understanding.
But what's yours? Be specific. Start with Christ's resurrection first. Was it bodily or not? Then describe the resurrection of the saints. Bodily? Past or future? Corporate or individual?
I know the definition of the word "Resurrection," according to the dictionary. And I once believed in a physical "bodily" Resurrection for many years. But just a few months ago, after carefully examining the statements made by Jesus and disciples regarding the Resurrection, I am now convinced that it is neither physical, nor is it about coming out of one body and entering into another. I hard a difficult time accepting my new position, especially when confronted with ....
...text such as 1Cor. 15. But with careful study of this Chapter, it is clear that Paul is not referring to a physical Resurrection. First of all, Christ said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life!" Christ continued by saying, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER DIE." Christ obviously could not be referring to PHYSICAL DEATH when he said one who believes in him would "NEVER DIE." Was he? If you agree to this, then you must also agree that the Resurrection...
...is also not physical! That Christ raising Lazarus and himself back to PHYSICAL LIFE, is not the actual resurrection! This was done to manifest the power of God in getting people to understand that with God PHYSICAL DEATH DOES NOT END A BELIEVER'S EXISTENCE. The whole idea behind this is if someone can give back life to one who had died, and can bring himself back to life after he has died, there is NOTHING THAT HE CANNOT DO!
Cont'd : But this had to be done in the physical in order for the people to truly believe. Because they know both Lazarus and Christ as physical beings. That's why also they came back to life in the same bodies they possessed prior to dieing. And this is what Paul is explaining in 1Cor. 15! He is showing the Corinthians how that they witnessed Christ was raised from the dead after he died, but yet, they do not believe in the resurrection. But, again, it is clear that Paul ...
...is not referring to Christ Physically coming out of the grave as the actual Resurrection. Why? Because Paul understood that this was done to manifest the power of God in showing that death doesn't end a believer's existence. And Paul also understood that Christ had to have been raised PHYSICALLY in the SAME BODY, in order for the people to believe that it was him. Because that's how they knew him! Paul himself said in 1Cor. 15 that the BODY IS SOWN PHYSICAL, IT IS RAISED...
...A SPIRITUAL BODY. Now, wouldn't that be a contradiction for Paul to refer to CHRIST PHYSICALLY COMING OUT OF THE GRAVE AS THE ACTUAL RESURRECTION when he said "THE BODY IS SOWN PHYSICAL AND IT IS RAISED SPIRITUAL?" Didn't Christ possessed a PHYSICAL BODY after he was raised from the dead? So how can this be the Resurrection?
Now, my understanding is that when a person accepts Christ, he/she has died to his/her old life and has been raised to a new "spiritual" life,...
....and that spiritual life continues in it's full manifestation, when his/her spirit departs the PHYSICAL BODY, after he/she has died. This is what my idea of understanding of the Resurrection is! The PHYSICAL BODY is simply a temporary home home for the SPIRIT while the Body is yet in this material world. But for those who believe in Christ, once the physical body return from whence it came, the spirit will depart to a place where Christ has prepared for it. May God Bless u!
Thanks for your lengthy response. My response needs to be answered in kind so because of that, I'll send it directly to you. That way we're not clogging up this comment section and won't be limited by the 500 letter rule. If anyone wants my longer reply, contact me.
Botm line: Christians may have various opinions on secondary issues such as mode of baptism, etc. But bodily resurrection is a CENTRAL Christian teaching of every age including Christ and the apostles.
Cont'd. ...present with the Lord. Now, going back to Christ appearing unto his disciples in bodily form; you see how they still thought that it was a ghost? Now imagine if he had appear unto them as a spirit!
con't: Again, I suggest you really study 1 Cor 15:35-58.
I believe Paul had false prophets like "Allthings" in mind when he said:
"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings for they will increase to more ungodliness and their message will spread like cancer....HAVING STRAYED CONCERNING THE TRUTH SAYING THAT THE RESURRECTION IS ALREADY PAST." 1 TIM 2:15-18
You are free to believe what you want, but that does not change the truth of God's word! I know that the Resurrection has nothing to do with bodies coming out of the gave! And Christ was not a human being prior to him coming down on earth. His purpose for coming in the flesh was simple to die to save mankind from his sin! Likewise, he took upon the same body after he was resurrected! It was for evidence that it was him was dead and is alive. Didn't he show Thomas the nail...
...in his hands, and where he was pieced at his side? AND WHERE WAS HIS BODY THAT WAS IN THE TOMB? DID IT COMPLETELY DECOMPOSE IN THREE DAYS? OR, DID A ROMAN SOLDIER TAKE IT AWAY AND HIDE IT? WHAT BODY DID LAZARUS HAD WHEN CHRIST ASKED HIM TO "COME FORTH" OUT OF THE TOMB? I am sure that you do not believe that you'd be so called "resurrected" with the same body that you had prior to your death! And you are pointing to Christ's physical body as an example for your belief. Yet...
@HaveUconsidered No offense, but that is such a shallow understanding of the hope of the Bible. Hope deferred makes the heart sick. Prov. 13:12, 19. Let's see how your logic works. God promised Israel Canaan, a land flowing with milk and honey while they were in bondage in Egypt. 40 years later Israel entered Canaan. According to your logic, that made Canaan a worthless possession because they had it in possession and were no longer hoping for it. Guess they cried because God made good his word!
What you fail to recognize is that the land that was acquired in Joshua's day; a land filled with idolatry and paganism, was indeed the "location" but not the type of land Abraham looked forward to. Hebrews makes it clear that that land would not be an idolatrous land but a "heavenly land"; a land that will come about by the visible entrance of it's Messiah; a Messiah who will bring in everlasting righteousness and an Edenic-like restoration to the land and entire earth.
"For when the sixty-two weeks are fulfilled and Christ has come, and the Gospel has been preached in every place, the times will then be accomplished. There will remain only one week--the last--in which Elijah and Enoch will appear. And in the midst of of it, the Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now "are offered to God in every place by the nations." Hippolytus (circa 205 AD)
harpazo is Greek, written in the N.T. 400 years before Jerome's Latin translation put the word rapture there. Further, Philip was "caught away" (harpazo) to Azotus, proof that rapture to heaven is not inherent in harpazo. "Bible" is from biblios, Greek for book. See John 20:30. So you're wrong there also.
Yes, the word rapture was in the bible,( in the Latin bible) Then a translation took place . The word Bible is not in the bible either, the word trinity isn't in the Bible so should we throw the bible and the God-head trinity away? Yes there will be a rapture" As a thief in the night" But we most certainly know Christ's 2nd coming because it happens immediately after the 7 yr. Tribulation!
See how you pick only those verses that support the spiritual resurrection. Look at John 11:24-25 he who belives in me will live even though he dies? Is this physical or spiritual? You tell me! see again that it was to believers yet it says they die! Let God be true and every one a liar. You talk as if it is impossible for GOd to raise up the dead. Didn't Jesus raise up Lazarus literally from the grave? So if he says he will do it again why should it be thought strange for us?
Povely, you've got your blinders on...No, I don't deny that God can raise the physically dead, per both OT & NT. That was never the issue. Jesus is THE RESURRECTION. John 11:25, 26 is same as Phil. 1:6, 11, 12. Now watch. He who believes in Me, though he may die [physically] he shall live [spiritually]. And whoever lives [physically] and believes in me shall NEVER die [spiritually]. Two questions. Do you believe in Christ? If so why do you die physically? See Jn. 8:51, 52. Lazarus died twice!
Phil 3:11-12, Paul clearly goes on to say he has not attained that for which he was hoping (vrs 12). Heb 11 says some accepted death so that they might have a better resurrection (11:35), what is the hope of resurrection for these saints if you teach the resurrection of the bible is only spiritual? SOrry, but sir, you are very deceived in your exegis and hermeneutics. Just add this reality to it and i think you will be see clearly.thats all.
To repeat, Phil. 3:11,12, is the resurrection, i.e. work begun in Phil. 1:6. You say its regeneration, sanctification, etc. That's spiritual, not physical. For you to have a case, you need to show where Paul addressed the physical resurrection of Christians as having already begun in 1st century. You can't because you believe its all yet future. So you can't be talking about what Paul was. The "better resurrection" of Heb. 11:35, is the same as Phil. 1:6, 3:11,12 & Heb. 11:39, 40. Try again.
look, Christ is both God and man do you believe it? The fullness of his sonship and perfection was a perfection of a spiritual body which he has in his physical resurrection and a moral perfection by being the begotten son of God in flesh. The perfection of belivers is to both this realities. Phil 3:11,20-21 deals with our physical glorification as sons. 1 John 3:2 deals with our moral glorification which is began in the regeneration and sanctification ( Phil 1:6, 2 Cor 5:17, Titus 3;5).
You've conceded again. You can't argue for a physical body in Phil. 1:6. What's all this "moral glorification...mumbo jumbo?" Why can't you just simply say what it is. It's spiritual, not physical. There, you'll get over it. If your physical body has been regenerated, glorified, etc, then you would ALREADY have your physical resurrection. But you know better than that. Physically, you will die. Jesus said those who believe in him shall never die! Do you believe in him? John 8:51, 52.
Secondly, the point of the wheat "before" the harvest is that it is "not full grown." Thus, you do not harvest wheat until the "end of the season." In like manner, the sons of God were not full grown, perfected. Now again, was God perfecting what he had begun spiritually, or physically? Further, Paul said "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." When Christ appeared, they would "appear." (Col. 3:3-4). Were they physically dead/invisible or was that a spiritual manifestation?
If we are to go by your understanding of Luke 20:36 it will be saying that marrying now in this age will be wrong. The issue before was literal marriage and not marriage to sin. So christ reference to marriage is literal, and if you go on to say because we are married to christ we should not be married, you only deny the text,and say no room for literal marriage now, which in 1 Tim 4 is a doctrine of demons.
Slow down and read the text again. Christ said the "sons of this age marry." He is addressing the marriage question raised by the Sadducees. They are quoting Deut. 25:5, which is about the Levirate marriage law that demanded a brother marry his deceased brother's widow who was childless. Physical procreation is necessary for inheritance rights in the land God gave Israel. See how marriage related to the inheritance in Num. 36. That all belonged to the Jewish age. Therefore, you do greatly err.
1 John 3:2, John 1:12 says we are now the sons of God and yet it does not appear what we shall be. ff. What we are we now sons of God, we shall become perfectly when christ comes and that is why it says we shall see him as he is for we shall become like him. i.e perfect children of God,same as Rom 8:29, again see the now and the after nature of the sonship. IT begins now, its consummated then. That is the issue thought by christ.
It is not about "being sons" it is about manifesting sons. You've ignored the point that the Paul wrote to N.T. bio-living Christians saying they were "dead" and that life was "hidden" with Christ in God. (Col. 3:3-4). Now how were they dead? It is that which was hidden which would be revealed. Were they physically dead? A simple yes or no will reveal the truth here. If Paul were writing to you today, and said, "You are dead" would you be physically dead? Also, try that with how you apply "we."
In case you did not realise, the text said it is the wheat which are the sons of the kingdom,(vs 38) and then at the resurrection they the wheat will shine as the sun (vs 43). In Daniel12 it says they will shine as the stars after they are resurrected. Thus being already sons of God, they shine, i.e attain to the glory of angels in the resurrection. Luke 20:36 says they in the resurrection become like angels, and also sons of God, no longer marrying. that is a heightening of sonship (perfection)
Okay, so now you've renounced your position again. If it is a heightening of sonship/perfection a concept which I agree with especially since Paul spoke of "attaining to the "out resurrection" (ex anastasis) equating it with being made perfect, Phil. 3:11-12. Why would that not refer to his spiritual status as a son of God, especially since he said, that he who has "begun" a good work in you, will perfect it till the day of Christ, (Phil. 1:6)? Had God begun physical resurrection in them? Not!!!
Sure Paul was referring to a future resurrection, but how far in the future is the question. You argue in the far distant future. He didn't. He said the end/day of the Lord, resurrection had drawn near and would happen in their life time. That's the difference. (Rom. 13:11, 12, 1 Cor. 10:11, Phil. 4:5, Heb. 10:25, 37, James 5:7,8, 1 Pet. 4:7, 17, Rev. 1:1, 3, 22:6, 10. Got any proof for the 21st century? I think not. So you speculate.
you must explain to me how there could be christians before AD 70 who have partaken of the spiritual resurrection, and yet Paul says when he shall come in your view in AD 70 then they shall also be resurrected? Clearly your view will be saying there were no true christians until AD 70 which is a very false statement and denies that the apostles were saved. 1 Cor15 and 1 thess 4 all speak off resurrection of christians, a resurrection to eternal life. thus they all died as saints!(believers)
That which proves too much proves nothing. In your view, we would not even be Christians/sons of God today, because Jesus said, we become sons of God being sons of the resurrection in the "age to come" Luke 20:36. So now the question is back in your lap. How do we become sons of God apart from resurrection in the age to come!?! Now according to the text, we don't become sons of God until we are as the angels and cannot die anymore. So how do you like your future physical body res. view now?
That's one of the best questions you've asked. Study the "already but not yet." Even though the scriptures teach the saints were spiritually raised in Christ, it was not complete. Rom. 6:4-5, expresses a "real future" using both future and aorist sub. (translated as future) BTW, it's the same Grk. construction as 1 Cor. 15:49. The resurrection Christ affirmed was one where the saints would never die if they believed, Jn. 8:51, 52; 11:25, 26, therefore it could not be physical death.
if such a thing has ever occured, don't you think Josehphus or some historian might write about it? John says when christ resurrected there was a resurrection of saints, but Paul was not referring to that cuz clearly he wrote after christ's resurrection. You must reckon with the fact that he was referring to a future resurrection and thus the rapture follows. 1 Cor 15, what Paul was answerin to was the view that there is no physical resurrectiion from the dead. IF you say otherwise then
If you persist in saying that we belongs to the original audience exclusively, then i ask you what part of the bible belongs to you then? You have no word of God spoken to you, our day, or nothing. You are saying God's word is not relevant to us by that interpretation. Besides in 1 Thess he was talking about christians who are asleep as in physcial death, when did it ever occur that God after the resurrection of christ, resurrected dead believers from the grave? that
You questions fails to distinguish between prophecy, fact and commands. Prophecy no longer prophesies once it is fulfilled. It then becomes fact. That doesn't make it irrelevant, rather it establishes relevance. So your argument is backwards. Solomon wrote, "when the desire comes it is a tree of life, (Prov. 13:12). When did fulfillment of a promise every destroy or nullify that promise? That would nullify every prophecy God fulfilled before Christ's Parousia, including his 1st coming!
Your view about the Hosea passage concerning resurrection of Israel was fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ.He then restores the true Israel of God both Jew and Gentile throughout the gospel age. 2. The view that those who are not my people, are now my people, was understood by the apostles to point to Gentile salvation, gentiles being made true Jews by the gospel. 3. Your view that We in th bible refers only to Paul's audience is not right. IT refers to all of God's people
Note that Peter writes to the Diaspora scattered abroad. (1 Peter 1:1) That is a technical term for the the 10 northern tribes, the same ones scattered per 2 Kings 17, and addressed in Hos. Note what Peter says of them in ch. 2:9 and compare with Hos. 1:10, 11, 2:23. God scattered them among the Gentiles. Thus the call of the Gentiles includes the call of the Northern tribes, i.e. scattered Israel. Thus to Shiloh was the gathering of the people, (Gen. 49:10). Your assertion on "we" needs proof.
Being that you claim that the passage saying "We shall not all sleep..." was referring specifically to first century saints, rather than saints in general, would you mind giving an example of a first century saint who shuffled off of the mortal coil by more more than purely natural means?
Mortal means subject to death. Paul wrote in Romans 8:10, If Christ is in you, the body is dead. He could not therefore have spoken of a physical body. Yet, there is no question that he called it the mortal body. See verse 11. That means "mortal body" refers to something other than "physical body" and it all had to be accomplished through the eschatological ministry of the Spirit which was completed in 70 A.D. 2 Cor. 5:3-5, shows they were clothed with new before demise of the old, -not naked.
Brother, as you can see my replies to this guy is going no where. Becareful about him, he is deceived, and bent on denying the hope of the gospel. Lets watch over ourselves especially against these who upset the faith of God's people and shake them concerning their inheritance. He surely does not speak of God but of the power of the prince of darkness.Angel of light but an angel of darkness indeed, denying the gospel which promise both real and spiritual salvation from sin. Peace be with u
Povely, what you can see is that you are not getting anywhere with those physical arguments. That's why you can't and won't answer the questions. So, again, WHAT RESURRECTION HAD GOD BEGUN IN N.T. SAINTS IN THE FIRST CENTURY? HOW WHERE THEY DEAD, WHILE YET PHYSICALLY ALIVE? HOW WERE THEY HIDDEN WHILE PHYSICALLY VISIBLE? Go ahead and say physical and see how much sense that makes! God was revealing what was hidden. Let's use your "we" understanding and say "Povely is hidden." Well are you?, How?
Two groups were asleep in 1 Cor. 15. Ver. 18, speaks of those who have fallen asleep "in Christ." Those are Christians who died "after" Pentecost (Acts 2). Verse 20, says Christ is the firstfruits of those who "have fallen" asleep, meaning those of the O. C. who died "before" Christ's death, i.e. the dead ones, whose resurrection was being denied. That difference is critical in Paul's argument. Yes, the 1st group were dead physically but also spiritually not raised from Hades, Sin/Law, v. 55-56.
Last sentence should read "the 2nd group..." See on Hebrews 9:15 regarding the redemption of the transgressions under the "first testament" and Heb. 11:39, 40, where they all died in faith not having received the promise that they (O.T. saints, --the "dead ones) without us (N.T. firstfruits saints, the living ones) could not be made perfect/resurrected from sin death, i.e. hades, sin/law, per above.
Your response seems a bit "choppy", so let me tell you how I have interpreted it. It appears that what you are saying is that Paul is claiming that "we will not all [fall spiritually asleep]". This (falling asleep spiritually), you seem to further interpret as meaning to be denied a place in the resurrection.
You are not. I understand Paul to say, "we" (1st century Christians) who are physically alive, will not all die before the Parousia -same as Mt. 24:34. See on v. 6, where some of the 500+ brethren died. Not all would, but some would remain alive until the Parousia, as with John, (Jn 21:22,23). Only the dead ones [O.T. Israel] were being denied resurrection, which if not raised, meant N.T. saints were also yet in their sins, v. 17. All were part of the same harvest but each in own his order v.23
"Also God is Love and what is His will not have to suffer His Wrath. When the Church is taken home, THAT is when the entire planet of unbelieving sinners will be decimated."
They didn't, they fled Jerusalem. They did however suffer persecution under the Jewish leadership and the Beast of Rome they served. You should read Eusibius', Josephus' and Tacitus' accounts of the War and the accounts of persecution under Nero.
The Saints fled Israel i.e. came out of Babylon (Rev. 18:4) per Jesus' command to flee (Luke 21:20-24 and Matt.& Mark parallels) and didn't have to endure the destruction of Jerusalem. (see Eusebius' account of the destruction of Jerusalem)
I do not "negate" Revelation, I believe what it says came true when it said it was to come true. That is except for Chapter 20. I believe we are in the Millennial Reign (Acts 26:18; 1 Corinthians 3:21,22; Ephesians 1:20-;2:6; Colossians 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Revelation 1:20) which is not literally 1000 years (cf. Deuteronomy 1:11; 7:9 Psalm 50:10; 84:10; 90:4) and Christ will return at the end to Resurrect the Dead both the Just and unjust Matthew 13:36--43; Rev. 20:11-15.
Just to clarify, when I said "I believe what it says came true when it said it was to come true. That is except for Chapter 20." I meant that I believe that Chapter 20 represents an ongoing period of time from the time of Christ up to the General Resurrection and Judgment in the future, NOT that it didn't happen when it was supposed to or was delayed somehow.
So then if you believe some events already happened, how do you interpret the mark of the Beast, if you don't mind me asking?
Because my view is it is going to be the One World Currency of the new worldwide government aka the New World Order. The Bilderberg Group/Trilateral Commission/Council on Foreign Relations (global elite bankers) are building it now. When the global economy crashes, they will bring the mark for all to take, or face death. It will be a tattoo like a UPC code.
"if you believe some events already happened, how do you interpret the mark of the Beast"
The Mark of the Beast is a symbol for giving your mind (forehead) and your deeds (hand) to the Beast. The Beast was the Roman Empire, personified at the time of writing by Nero. People had to burn incense to the Emperor to show that they worshiped him as a god.
When they did this they were given a document called a libellus which they could present as proof that they had done this. If they didn't have this paper they couldn't buy or sell in the markets. This is contrasted in Revelation by the Mark given by God which I believe is the Seal of the Holy Spirit representing loyalty to Christ. To stretch the Mark into a computer chip implant is just that, a stretch.
As for "the entire planet" Revelation never says that about His Wrath. There are 3 words translated world in Revelation; Oikoumene, which means the Roman Empire (see Luke 2:1); Ge, which is best translated here as "Land", seen prophetically as the "Land of Israel" (note that the focus in Matt. 24 etc. was Jerusalem. The same goes for Revelation.) and Kosmos, which generally means the entire world/universe. Nowhere does it use Kosmos when speaking of the Wrath of God.
Yes, I read that post. The libellus is not the mark because the mark will be for the entire planet AFTER all the other other prophecies in Revelation are fulfilled.
Even if those people back then could not buy and sell, people are still able to today without any documentation whatsover.
The mark will come and no one will be able to trade going forward. As in, complete inability for commerce. Period.
There is no global dictator and there are no 7 trumpets or 7 bowls of God's fury...YET.
I don't plan on being here when that happens because I belong to the Lord God Almighty and His seal is upon me. I will pass the final filter test of the mark when it comes and then God's Wrath will be upon the world, for He will finally know who is His and who is not.
God will let satan has have his way and satan will wreck havoc upon the world.
People will understand what happens to them who serve the lying devil and themselves. Their souls were the most prized possessions in the universe.
"I don't plan on being here when that happens because I belong to the Lord God Almighty and His seal is upon me."
The Christians back then had the same idea and fled Jerusalem because they heeded God's Word!
Don't you think its a pretty big leap to think the people in that day would think the destruction of Jerusalem within one generation from when Jesus prophesied its destruction was just a coincidence and think "Nooo, Jesus was talking about the NEXT Temple 2000 years from now!"
Predictions are always being made. No one knows for sure unless they study the entire bible, and even then they are relying on their interpretation of God's Word.
For me I think it's great we are discussing our beliefs because I know that intelligence is God's way of saying...have conviction in your faith.
We'll see. If I see you in Heaven, I will shake your hand & we can laugh about this rapture discussion. God's mercy is higher than Judgment. That's Love now for those that accept Christ.
"Predictions are always being made. No one knows for sure unless they study the entire bible..."
That's why I take in the entire understanding of the language used. Jesus said that "this generation" would not die out before they saw the temple destroyed and the sign that He was reigning in Heaven as the Son of Man. Reading Josephus and Tacitus is an eye opener because you can see God's word fulfilled from their non-Christian perspective.
I believe people should start with Matthew 23 before going into 24. 23 makes it clear that He told the Scribes and Pharisees that the blood of the innocent would come upon "their" "generation" and it did. They saw the sign on earth that He was reigning above in the Temple's destruction because they knew Daniel's prophecies. When you take the Bible beyond it's context that is when wild speculations can creep in.
"the mark because the mark will be for the entire planet"
It never says that. The Tribulation was localized in Israel and the Roman Empire (see remarks on the Greek words translated "world". The Mark was for those living at that time under Roman rule.
"Even if those people back then could not buy and sell, people are still able to today without any documentation whatsover."
Ummm... Thats the point. It was for that time and was fulfilled back then under the rule of the Roman Beast!
"Well, if even ONE verse has not be fulfilled then your entire view of the other Revelation chapters is wrong about it already happening.
Wouldn't you agree?"
If it wasn't fulfilled when it was said to take place then yes. But as I said I misspoke. I believe that up through chapter 19 was supposed to and did come true. Chapter 20 starts in AD 70, with allusions to Christ's first coming, and extends into our day. It is being fulfilled now.
Chapters 1-19 could NOT have come true already. It's impossible because God's Wrath is severe. Mankind will know when God's Wrath is here. There is absolutely no way it's already here.
Also God is Love and what is His will not have to suffer His Wrath. When the Church is taken home, THAT is when the entire planet of unbelieving sinners will be decimated.
Only now, in the Age of Grace can anyone receive mercy because God is slow to anger. The Age of Grace to gentiles ends with the rapture.
"Chapters 1-19 could NOT have come true already. It's impossible because God's Wrath is severe. Mankind will know when God's Wrath is here. There is absolutely no way it's already here."
Tell that to the woman who ate her own baby during the siege of Jerusalem. See Josephus's War of the Jews.
The same prophetic language was used in the Old Testament concerning the fall of Kings. The lights being dimmed and the falling of stars do not have to be taken literally, especially given the symbolic nature of Revelation. See. Gen. 37:9,10; Isa. 13:1-22; Isa 34:4-7; Ezek. 32:1-8. If I said its raining cats and dogs would you take it that there are real dogs and cats falling from the sky?
Again, I want to add for clarification that I am a "Partial Preterist" which means I believe in a future Coming of Christ to Resurrect the dead in Christ and translate those living into glorified bodies and to Judge the unjust dead.
I also want to say that I am not quick to call Full Preterists heretics.
From Daniel to Revelation was about 400 years; from Revelation to our time is around 2000 years. How can 400 be far away and 2000 be near? From Rev. to the destruction of Jerusalem was around 6 years, give or take.
Nero was the personification of the Beast Empire (he was the "one is" king of Rev. 17)The original audience was told that they could, with wisdom, calculate the number of his name and Nero's name adds to 666.
The Rapture is very soon. Many backslidden "self-professing" christians will be left behind because they did NOT have oil in their lamps. They will go to hell.
Salvation is in the heart and the heart is the wellspring of life.
If you do not repent, you perish. The Christian walk is EVERY DAY. Not whenever you feel like it.
Once Israel's enemies surround Jerusalem, the tribulation begins, and the Wedding Feast of the Lamb will be enjoyed in the third heaven.
Jerusalem will be surrounded again, to fulfill the Scriptures and for the 3rd temple to be rebuilt when the Antichrist reings over the earth, for a short time.
The Holy Spirit will be taken away before God's Wrath is poured.
2Thessalonians 2:3,7
Nazi prison camps will be like Disneyland compared to what is to come when the devil possesses the man of sin, the son of perdition, after he is resurrected to fool the whole world.
Renzaura, did you listen to this video? Israel's armies already surrounded Jerusalem in the last days (of the old covenant.) You're already feasting with the Lamb because He's been in His fullness here since AD70! Praise God! His kingdom does not come w/ observation and it is within you.
trace433, the Wedding Feast is the consummation of marriage to the Lamb.
If you think marriage is like the engagement then you have missed out on the beauty and purity of God's plan.
Israel's armies? Ezekiel talks about the enemies of Israel...and Russia and Iran have already formed an alliance, not fulfilled since Ezekiel prophesied, UNTIL NOW...for the END is near.
PlanetX/Nibiru is the destroyer. Look to the sky! 2011, you will know but by then the church could be in heaven. Get Ready!
Ren, you're the one missing out because you're waiting for something that has already arrived, please read my page on how I came to the preterist view at my website, preterism dottripod dotcom.
ravens2255, it's unfortunate that you pick and choose scripture. You deny the entire book of Revelation? Every chapter explains what is yet to come. The old testament is recorded to give us the plan of future events. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17
Matthew 24-25 destroys the preterist view. I suggest you read it. God is HOLY and the rapture is Not the 2nd coming.
Pray for the Holy Spirit's wisdom and receive it from others. Only then will you understand.
Read Matt. 24 and Mark 13 in light of Luke 21. Luke knew that the "abomination of desolation" would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was "surrounded by armies" and that it would be destroyed within their generation and the Jews would "die by the sword" and "be led captive into all nations". Jesus used apocalyptic language that was used in the Old Testament regarding the fall of Babylon by the Medes (see Isaiah 13)for the Romans destroying Jerusalem in AD 70.
The "abomination of desolation" is yet to come and will be done by the global elite's Antichrist. When you see the One World Government established soon, and the new world currency (the mark, a tattoo), the world will be finally be 1. For or 2. Against God Almighty.
Then Revelation 3:10 will come to pass with the rapture.
The AOD came when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem, as Jesus said it would, within the 40 year generation. The Disciples were told "when YOU see the abomination of desolation/Jerusalem surrounded by armies" They saw these things come to pass. Read Josephus', Eusebius' and Tacitus' accounts of the siege and signs in the heavens that preceded it. Christ's words were fulfilled and He will come again to judge the living and the dead at the end of time. His Second Coming is the only thing left.
Rev. 3:10 was written to the literal "church in Philadelphia". If these words were meant for a future generation then God deceived the Philadelphia church. There is no proof beyond dispensational fantasies that the 7 Churches represent 7 time periods. The words were meant for the actual 7 churches and the churches who were also in tribulation at that time. We can apply their message to any church who is going through the type of things they did but we must consider original audience relevance.
The wedding feast was the marriage of Christ to His Bride, i.e. true Israel, after His divorce of the Harlot, i.e. apostate Israel, which was signaled by the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.
True Israel is any Jew or Gentile who is saved by the Blood of the Lamb.
The wedding feast is for the Bride of Christ, which is the Church (Messianic Jews + Born-Again Gentiles)
Israel is the Bride of the Father and that is why Mosaic Law will return after the rapture of the saints. It is only then when the Church is GONE, that the Jews will realize their harlotry against the Father.
Only Messianic Jews see the Light right now. The unsaved Jews are still blind and lost.
There is no pre-tribulation Rapture in scripture. 1 Cor. 15:22-24 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power."
If a gentile is not saved by the time the rapture happens (left behind), they go to hell because they do not have any wedding clothes on. The Ark's door will be shut forever just like in Noah's time.
The people in Rev. 9 are doomed because they did not repent, not because they missed the rapture. Anyone who is not saved when Christ Resurrects the dead, both the just and unjust at one time at the end, is doomed, Jew or Gentile. Matt. 13:24-30;36-43
No one can be saved outside God's Grace by the sacrifice of Jesus. Israel is not separate from the Gentiles. All Christians, Jew and Gentile, are true Israel. Galatians 3:26-29. Hebrews 8:7-13; Romans 4:13-25.
Only Messianic Jews during the great tribulation will be saved when God's Wrath comes because the Church will be gone in the Rapture.
Revelation 14
Most Jews don't even recognize Jesus as God. That is why there is still the old Israel. That's my distinction until Revelation 14 is fulfilled when finally all Jews recognize Jesus Christ as Lord. They will only see the Light later, not in this current time of Grace.
"Read Revelation 9 again VERY carefully. Verse 20 That's EVERYONE that's living...they will not repent. When God's Wrath comes, everyone that's on earth will suffer greatly."
Read Eusebius. The Christians fled and those "left behind" felt God's wrath.
Everyone has one chance now because we are in the Age of Grace.
When the Day of the Lord is here and His Furious Wrath comes, the entire world is doomed except He will remember His convenant with Israel. ONLY they will have a chance when His Wrath comes. Everyone else is going to die a horrible death for God is UNSTOPPABLE and the proud people will be ashes under His feet.
"He will remember His convenant with Israel." "God does not lie. Hebrews 6:18"
Read Hebrews 8:7-13. He has made the old covenant obsolete and the New one is stronger. He has grafted in Gentiles and pruned apostate Jews. It is only when they come to Christ that Jews are saved and grafted back into Israel, not separate from the Church.
Put down your charts and read the Bible for what it says.
Yes, all can come to God now because yes the New Convenant in Jesus' Blood is the master plan.
But you forget that God's people, the Jews, are still loved because He does not abolish the old covenant to those that don't believe in the new convenant. The new covenant replaces the old but the old is still there also. Israel is still the Father's bride and that will never change.
I never said that. I meant the Holy Spirit will tell you what is Truth. Your own understanding will depend on how you know your Bible.
If you know bits and pieces, then you can be deceived. Judge according to the wisdom given you. The rapture is going to happen and you'll believe then but that's too bad you don't know it as Truth now because you personally don't know any eagles (end time prophets).
"Being born-again doesn't change the old testament convenant with Israel whatsoever."
If they are not born again they are pruned away. Romans 11:11-24. It is only if they believe in Christ that they are grafted back in and receive the promise. No one is saved apart from Christ.
>They (unbelieving Jews) have been pruned from the root and are not Abraham's descendants according to the promise. Romans 11 etc.
They have been pruned yes, but they are STILL descendants of Abraham by bloodline, not by spirit. Only through Christ are we under the 2nd Adam, by the new convenant.
"They have been pruned yes, but they are STILL descendants of Abraham by bloodline, not by spirit. Only through Christ are we under the 2nd Adam, by the new convenant."
And the only way they will ever be grafted in is by coming to Christ just like all of us, not by the restoration of the Old Covenant system.
Yes, and the only way that will happen is when the Jews finally realize Jesus Christ IS the messiah after the Antichrist desolates the third temple in Jerusalem, AFTER the Church is already in Heaven.
They'll wake up spiritually after centuries of whoring and the Father will take them back, but they will suffer greatly when satan has his way on the earth because they are deceived even now.
"the only way that will happen is when the Jews finally realize Jesus Christ IS the messiah after the Antichrist desolates the third temple in Jerusalem, AFTER the Church is already in Heaven."
There is no Third Temple. Jesus was talking about the Second Temple that was standing right in front of Him. Read Josephus concerning the abomination of the Temple during the War. God will never be in the Temple again so there would be nothing to desolate. A 3rd Temple would be an abomination itself.
The Islamic Dome of the Rock is where the third temple should be. After the rapture there will be a third temple because the Antichrist will deceive the whole world into worshipping him as the Jews will believe he's the messiah, coming through peace at first, then after 3 1/2 years, he will show his true colors.
fardawg, Josephus was mistaken. Those were not hailstones. Those were white boulders. The Jews know the difference and the WORD of God knows the difference too.
The largest hailstones in recorded history were only 2.25 lbs!
snurl. com / 3ba5d
The heaviest hailstones on record reportedly weighed 2.25 pounds and killed 92 people in
Gopalganj, a district of Bangladesh, on April 14, 1986.
"fardawg, Josephus was mistaken. Those were not hailstones. Those were white boulders."
Revelation uses symbolism and the fact that the description of the stones is so close to the "hailstones" is one of many historical confirmations that show John was seeing visions of the Roman/Jewish war. That you would claim Josephus was wrong, and I don't understand exactly how you think he was wrong, is incredible.
Do you believe there will be an actual woman clothed with the son? Do you believe the Antichrist will actually be one of seven heads on a real monster coming from the sea? Do you believe in Godzilla too?
"The symbols must be understood by their context. The Antichrist is a man of course. The beast is a symbol of his attributes like all the other animal symbols of the Bible."
The context of the entire "vision" is symbolism. Why must they be literal hailstones if this is a vision? Would it be wrong to think there is a literal pregnant woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon and twelve stars on her head?
"Hailstones does not equal stones. John knew the difference, that's the point."
Did he know the difference between a composite Beast with seven heads and a European Dictator? I'm not saying he saw the stones, I'm saying he saw a vision of hailstones that represented the destruction by catapulted stones.
Actually God saved the Jews before Christ came. They were in Sheol (Abraham's bosom), until Jesus took the keys of hell and then they were brought to the third heaven. hell now only consists of Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna. Sheol is gone.
God does not negate the old covenant even though the new covenant replaces the old. That is why the Jews are still distinct as a people.
Look up "The Beast of Revelation identified" videos by Ken Gentry here on youtube.
The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was the divorce from apostate Israel and the sign of the Marriage of the Lamb to His Bride. Outside of Christ there is no salvation. There is no Rapture to separate the Bride from Israel because they are one and the same.
Israel is the bride of the Father and the Church is the bride of Christ. They can be separate because God is 3 separate persons also, yet One God.
Israel is the spiritual symbol of God's people so that people would understand how God views what's His...when they receive Christ. How God treated Israel in the old testament was a PICTURE of how He views everyone in the new convenant, yet the unsaved Jews are still God's chosen people even if some join the Body of Christ.
I listened to the video (all of his) and I hear a man terribly distorting the word of God.
Revelation makes it clear that Christ will go to battle IN DEFENSE OF Jerusalem. This never happened in A.D. 70. The Romans won, sacked the city and burned down the temple. In the future battle, Christ will destroy the armies (which will be of ALL NATIONS, not just Rome.). The Roman army was not destroyed by Christ.
ATF, in the book of Peter, it says that "with the Lord a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are as one day". According to scripture, life is like a vapor. So, things coming to pass "shortly" just may not be measureable in the manner you suggest.
Well, if shortly can mean a long time or literally thousands of years as you imply, does a "long time" mean a "short time?" See Matthew 25:19. Let me warn you that whatever the "long time" in Matthew 25:19 is, it all happens within the lifetime of a man and "his" servants. The parable says the kingdom was likened to a man, not to God! So to be consistent with the intent of the parable, one must use time from man's point of view!
Keep the teachings coming. Just Sub'ed you. You are 100% correct about the rapture doctrine. We will not gather unto Christ until AFTER the tribulation of satan like Paul said. I think people get confused when deciphering the difference between Gods Wrath at the seventh trump and the Great tribulation of satan. That and the point you already made and that is people only read verses that prove thier point pulling the verse out of context instead of teaching chapter by chapter verse by verse.
jacketsftb 11 months ago
I would not attempt to get into a deep theological debate, but as a christian friend I suggest you get the following:
1. DAKE'S ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE
2.GOD'S PLAN FOR MAN
3. WORDSEARCH 8 OR 9.
You are in extreme error and need to stop
HARLANGENEPARROTT 1 year ago
@HARLANGENEPARROTT Since assertions need only to be met with assertions then I would reply...if you are involved in a futurist paradigm which ignores the fulfillment of the scriptures you are in extreme error on the timing of the Lord's coming and need to stop.
AllThingsFulfilled 1 year ago
@AllThingsFulfilled
There is nothing in my statements about the 'TIMING OF JESUS SECOND COMING" only that the preterist view if way off base.
HARLANGENEPARROTT 1 year ago
@HARLANGENEPARROTT
I completely agree with pastor Bell! I think this man is blessed with the understanding of the word of God. For years I have been upholding this notion about the End being taken place in the future and that some day people are gonna pop out of the grave. I was ignorant then! But two months ago I relinquished these beliefs. And I thank God for revealing the truth to me. I am confident that he can do the same for you. God bless.
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
I suggest you get the following:
1. DAKE'S ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE
2.GOD'S PLAN FOR MAN
3. WORDSEARCH 8 OR 9.
"THE ONENESS OF GOD" BY DAVID BERNARD
HARLANGENEPARROTT 1 year ago
@HARLANGENEPARROTT
I do have a DAKE ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE and I do not agree with many of the things they say in it! Remember the footnotes are their interpretation. It is not the Bible itself. I also have a HEBREW-GREEK KEYWORD STUDY BIBLE. All one need is the bible itself and the Holy Spirit's interpretation of it.
tmat04 1 year ago
Your theology is so overwhelmingly skewed, you completely rob the scriptures of their meaning and a future hope that is so precious in the bible. Even a well known passage like John 3:16 becomes meaningless because there is no eternal life because guess what, the kingdom's here and we're still dying (no immortal body for us).
This is it. All that God promised. Guess what folks? This is it. You're in it. This is the promised kingdom.
Yeh, rah!!
You guys should revive Lennon's song.
HaveUconsidered 2 years ago
There is no such thing in the Bible as physical Immortality for Christians. Eternal life is spiritual. Read Romans 8:10. "If Christ is in you, the BODY is DEAD. Now, ask yourself (1) Is Christ in you? If the answer is yes, then is your physical body DEAD? Were the Romans physical bodies DEAD? Whatever the BODY is in that text, Paul says it would be RAISED. How can a church full of physically DEAD BODIES read the Bible?
AllThingsFulfilled 2 years ago
@AllThingsFulfilled
No immortal body? O.K. Question for you:
Christ's resurrection: Physical or spiritual? Did he have a body when he appeared to his disciples? Is Christ presently just a spiritual God or is He also a man (with a body)?
HaveUconsidered 2 years ago
@AllThingsFulfilled
I'm not sure I'm following you here. Do you believe in a future physical resurrection? If you don't, you're not a Christian because that is an essential of what defines Christianity. Holding to a "spiritual only" definition of the resurrection is more akin to Jehovah's Witnesses, not Christianity.
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
The Bible doesn't teach a future physical resurrection. The resurrection is an inner body and an out-of-body experience. It has nothing to do with popping out of graves physically! We shouldn't just read the scriptures verbatim. We should ponder and reason on the scriptures, and let it explain itself. Pray and ask God for the interpretation, wisdom and understanding of his word, through his Holy Spirit, each time before you open the Bible.
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
The bible should be read using the historical-grammatical method of interpretation which basically involves reading the bible plainly like you would any other piece of literature. I suggest you read 1 Corinthians ch 15
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
And what does 1Corinthians ch. 15 have to do with the rapture?
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
My reply was to your response to me. I don't believe you mentioned the word "rapture" so lets not muddy the issue which is whether or not the bible clearly teaches a physical resurrection, which it does. Bodily future resurrection of the saints is an orthodox Christian teaching. If you deny that, you maybe "religious" but your not a Christian.
You you deny that Jesus' resurrection was a physical one? Notice that "AllthingsFulfilled" will not answer that fundamental question I asked.
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
Correction: "Do you", not "You you"
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
I am not religious! And how can you determine that I am not a Christian because I do not believe in a physical resurrection?
Now, I have upheld the view of a physical resurrection for years. And it's just a few months ago I relinquished this belief. The RESURRECTION IS NOT ABOUT BODIES COMING OUT OF THEIR GRAVES! THE RESURRECTION IS BOTH AN INNER BODY AND AN OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE. THE RESURRECTION IS CHRIST, AND CHRIST IS THE RESURRECTION!
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
O.K. I'll ask you the same question that Mr. Allthings won't answer:
Christ's resurrection. Was it or was it not a bodily resurrection???
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
Christ appeared unto his disciples enrobed in the same fleshly body that he had prior to his death. But this is not the actual resurrection! There is a reason for which this happened. It was for the purpose of proving to his disciples that it was truly him, and that he lives! Now, had he appear unto them as a spirit being, they would have a hard time believing it was him. God is a spirit. And no man can see him in bodily form. Paul spoke of being absent from the body and pre...
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
So, Jesus just "enrobed" Himself in his body for the sake us His disciples. He just borrowed" His rotten corpse from the tomb so that He could use it during His disciple visitation. And when he was done with His visit, what then happened to His body? Did He secretly bury it? WOW. And of course, Jesus just appearing to His disciples with a body without really having one of His own wouldn't of course be deceptive at all. Especially considering Jesus' own denial of being a "spirit".
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
...no matter how much you deny this, it is clear from the scriptures that Christ was resurrected with the same body that he possessed prior to his death! YOUR POSITION, AS FAR AS THE RESURRECTION IS CONCERNED, MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER AND CANNOT BE SUBSTANTIATED BY SCRIPTURE! AND I THANK GOD THAT HE HAS LEAD MY TO RELINQUISH THIS IGNORANT AND FALLACIOUS BELIEF!
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
O.K. I'm still not clear on what EXACTLY is your understanding of what the resurrection is. Mine is the historical orthodox position. Go into any respectable bible bookstore and pick up any respectable bible dictionary and look the word "resurrection" and simply read it. That's my understanding.
But what's yours? Be specific. Start with Christ's resurrection first. Was it bodily or not? Then describe the resurrection of the saints. Bodily? Past or future? Corporate or individual?
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
I know the definition of the word "Resurrection," according to the dictionary. And I once believed in a physical "bodily" Resurrection for many years. But just a few months ago, after carefully examining the statements made by Jesus and disciples regarding the Resurrection, I am now convinced that it is neither physical, nor is it about coming out of one body and entering into another. I hard a difficult time accepting my new position, especially when confronted with ....
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
...text such as 1Cor. 15. But with careful study of this Chapter, it is clear that Paul is not referring to a physical Resurrection. First of all, Christ said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life!" Christ continued by saying, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER DIE." Christ obviously could not be referring to PHYSICAL DEATH when he said one who believes in him would "NEVER DIE." Was he? If you agree to this, then you must also agree that the Resurrection...
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
...is also not physical! That Christ raising Lazarus and himself back to PHYSICAL LIFE, is not the actual resurrection! This was done to manifest the power of God in getting people to understand that with God PHYSICAL DEATH DOES NOT END A BELIEVER'S EXISTENCE. The whole idea behind this is if someone can give back life to one who had died, and can bring himself back to life after he has died, there is NOTHING THAT HE CANNOT DO!
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
Cont'd : But this had to be done in the physical in order for the people to truly believe. Because they know both Lazarus and Christ as physical beings. That's why also they came back to life in the same bodies they possessed prior to dieing. And this is what Paul is explaining in 1Cor. 15! He is showing the Corinthians how that they witnessed Christ was raised from the dead after he died, but yet, they do not believe in the resurrection. But, again, it is clear that Paul ...
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
...is not referring to Christ Physically coming out of the grave as the actual Resurrection. Why? Because Paul understood that this was done to manifest the power of God in showing that death doesn't end a believer's existence. And Paul also understood that Christ had to have been raised PHYSICALLY in the SAME BODY, in order for the people to believe that it was him. Because that's how they knew him! Paul himself said in 1Cor. 15 that the BODY IS SOWN PHYSICAL, IT IS RAISED...
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
...A SPIRITUAL BODY. Now, wouldn't that be a contradiction for Paul to refer to CHRIST PHYSICALLY COMING OUT OF THE GRAVE AS THE ACTUAL RESURRECTION when he said "THE BODY IS SOWN PHYSICAL AND IT IS RAISED SPIRITUAL?" Didn't Christ possessed a PHYSICAL BODY after he was raised from the dead? So how can this be the Resurrection?
Now, my understanding is that when a person accepts Christ, he/she has died to his/her old life and has been raised to a new "spiritual" life,...
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
....and that spiritual life continues in it's full manifestation, when his/her spirit departs the PHYSICAL BODY, after he/she has died. This is what my idea of understanding of the Resurrection is! The PHYSICAL BODY is simply a temporary home home for the SPIRIT while the Body is yet in this material world. But for those who believe in Christ, once the physical body return from whence it came, the spirit will depart to a place where Christ has prepared for it. May God Bless u!
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
Thanks for your lengthy response. My response needs to be answered in kind so because of that, I'll send it directly to you. That way we're not clogging up this comment section and won't be limited by the 500 letter rule. If anyone wants my longer reply, contact me.
Botm line: Christians may have various opinions on secondary issues such as mode of baptism, etc. But bodily resurrection is a CENTRAL Christian teaching of every age including Christ and the apostles.
Yours is Gnosticism
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
This is clear biblical truth. It has nothing to do with Gnosticism! Do you understand what the teaching of Gnosticism is all about?
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
Cont'd. ...present with the Lord. Now, going back to Christ appearing unto his disciples in bodily form; you see how they still thought that it was a ghost? Now imagine if he had appear unto them as a spirit!
tmat04 1 year ago
@tmat04
con't: Again, I suggest you really study 1 Cor 15:35-58.
I believe Paul had false prophets like "Allthings" in mind when he said:
"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings for they will increase to more ungodliness and their message will spread like cancer....HAVING STRAYED CONCERNING THE TRUTH SAYING THAT THE RESURRECTION IS ALREADY PAST." 1 TIM 2:15-18
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
You are free to believe what you want, but that does not change the truth of God's word! I know that the Resurrection has nothing to do with bodies coming out of the gave! And Christ was not a human being prior to him coming down on earth. His purpose for coming in the flesh was simple to die to save mankind from his sin! Likewise, he took upon the same body after he was resurrected! It was for evidence that it was him was dead and is alive. Didn't he show Thomas the nail...
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
...in his hands, and where he was pieced at his side? AND WHERE WAS HIS BODY THAT WAS IN THE TOMB? DID IT COMPLETELY DECOMPOSE IN THREE DAYS? OR, DID A ROMAN SOLDIER TAKE IT AWAY AND HIDE IT? WHAT BODY DID LAZARUS HAD WHEN CHRIST ASKED HIM TO "COME FORTH" OUT OF THE TOMB? I am sure that you do not believe that you'd be so called "resurrected" with the same body that you had prior to your death! And you are pointing to Christ's physical body as an example for your belief. Yet...
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered
Correction. I meant "...it was him who was dead and is alive." And also, "...the nail prints in his hands."
tmat04 1 year ago
@HaveUconsidered No offense, but that is such a shallow understanding of the hope of the Bible. Hope deferred makes the heart sick. Prov. 13:12, 19. Let's see how your logic works. God promised Israel Canaan, a land flowing with milk and honey while they were in bondage in Egypt. 40 years later Israel entered Canaan. According to your logic, that made Canaan a worthless possession because they had it in possession and were no longer hoping for it. Guess they cried because God made good his word!
AllThingsFulfilled 1 year ago
@AllThingsFulfilled
What you fail to recognize is that the land that was acquired in Joshua's day; a land filled with idolatry and paganism, was indeed the "location" but not the type of land Abraham looked forward to. Hebrews makes it clear that that land would not be an idolatrous land but a "heavenly land"; a land that will come about by the visible entrance of it's Messiah; a Messiah who will bring in everlasting righteousness and an Edenic-like restoration to the land and entire earth.
HaveUconsidered 1 year ago
"For when the sixty-two weeks are fulfilled and Christ has come, and the Gospel has been preached in every place, the times will then be accomplished. There will remain only one week--the last--in which Elijah and Enoch will appear. And in the midst of of it, the Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now "are offered to God in every place by the nations." Hippolytus (circa 205 AD)
HaveUconsidered 2 years ago
Thanks!
AllThingsFulfilled 2 years ago
William Great work. You couldn't be clearer. Thanks and God bless you .
preteristaynrand 2 years ago
harpazo is Greek, written in the N.T. 400 years before Jerome's Latin translation put the word rapture there. Further, Philip was "caught away" (harpazo) to Azotus, proof that rapture to heaven is not inherent in harpazo. "Bible" is from biblios, Greek for book. See John 20:30. So you're wrong there also.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Yes, the word rapture was in the bible,( in the Latin bible) Then a translation took place . The word Bible is not in the bible either, the word trinity isn't in the Bible so should we throw the bible and the God-head trinity away? Yes there will be a rapture" As a thief in the night" But we most certainly know Christ's 2nd coming because it happens immediately after the 7 yr. Tribulation!
mtrman47 3 years ago
See how you pick only those verses that support the spiritual resurrection. Look at John 11:24-25 he who belives in me will live even though he dies? Is this physical or spiritual? You tell me! see again that it was to believers yet it says they die! Let God be true and every one a liar. You talk as if it is impossible for GOd to raise up the dead. Didn't Jesus raise up Lazarus literally from the grave? So if he says he will do it again why should it be thought strange for us?
povely13 3 years ago
Povely, you've got your blinders on...No, I don't deny that God can raise the physically dead, per both OT & NT. That was never the issue. Jesus is THE RESURRECTION. John 11:25, 26 is same as Phil. 1:6, 11, 12. Now watch. He who believes in Me, though he may die [physically] he shall live [spiritually]. And whoever lives [physically] and believes in me shall NEVER die [spiritually]. Two questions. Do you believe in Christ? If so why do you die physically? See Jn. 8:51, 52. Lazarus died twice!
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Phil 3:11-12, Paul clearly goes on to say he has not attained that for which he was hoping (vrs 12). Heb 11 says some accepted death so that they might have a better resurrection (11:35), what is the hope of resurrection for these saints if you teach the resurrection of the bible is only spiritual? SOrry, but sir, you are very deceived in your exegis and hermeneutics. Just add this reality to it and i think you will be see clearly.thats all.
povely13 3 years ago
To repeat, Phil. 3:11,12, is the resurrection, i.e. work begun in Phil. 1:6. You say its regeneration, sanctification, etc. That's spiritual, not physical. For you to have a case, you need to show where Paul addressed the physical resurrection of Christians as having already begun in 1st century. You can't because you believe its all yet future. So you can't be talking about what Paul was. The "better resurrection" of Heb. 11:35, is the same as Phil. 1:6, 3:11,12 & Heb. 11:39, 40. Try again.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
look, Christ is both God and man do you believe it? The fullness of his sonship and perfection was a perfection of a spiritual body which he has in his physical resurrection and a moral perfection by being the begotten son of God in flesh. The perfection of belivers is to both this realities. Phil 3:11,20-21 deals with our physical glorification as sons. 1 John 3:2 deals with our moral glorification which is began in the regeneration and sanctification ( Phil 1:6, 2 Cor 5:17, Titus 3;5).
povely13 3 years ago
You've conceded again. You can't argue for a physical body in Phil. 1:6. What's all this "moral glorification...mumbo jumbo?" Why can't you just simply say what it is. It's spiritual, not physical. There, you'll get over it. If your physical body has been regenerated, glorified, etc, then you would ALREADY have your physical resurrection. But you know better than that. Physically, you will die. Jesus said those who believe in him shall never die! Do you believe in him? John 8:51, 52.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Secondly, the point of the wheat "before" the harvest is that it is "not full grown." Thus, you do not harvest wheat until the "end of the season." In like manner, the sons of God were not full grown, perfected. Now again, was God perfecting what he had begun spiritually, or physically? Further, Paul said "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." When Christ appeared, they would "appear." (Col. 3:3-4). Were they physically dead/invisible or was that a spiritual manifestation?
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
If we are to go by your understanding of Luke 20:36 it will be saying that marrying now in this age will be wrong. The issue before was literal marriage and not marriage to sin. So christ reference to marriage is literal, and if you go on to say because we are married to christ we should not be married, you only deny the text,and say no room for literal marriage now, which in 1 Tim 4 is a doctrine of demons.
povely13 3 years ago
Slow down and read the text again. Christ said the "sons of this age marry." He is addressing the marriage question raised by the Sadducees. They are quoting Deut. 25:5, which is about the Levirate marriage law that demanded a brother marry his deceased brother's widow who was childless. Physical procreation is necessary for inheritance rights in the land God gave Israel. See how marriage related to the inheritance in Num. 36. That all belonged to the Jewish age. Therefore, you do greatly err.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
1 John 3:2, John 1:12 says we are now the sons of God and yet it does not appear what we shall be. ff. What we are we now sons of God, we shall become perfectly when christ comes and that is why it says we shall see him as he is for we shall become like him. i.e perfect children of God,same as Rom 8:29, again see the now and the after nature of the sonship. IT begins now, its consummated then. That is the issue thought by christ.
povely13 3 years ago
It is not about "being sons" it is about manifesting sons. You've ignored the point that the Paul wrote to N.T. bio-living Christians saying they were "dead" and that life was "hidden" with Christ in God. (Col. 3:3-4). Now how were they dead? It is that which was hidden which would be revealed. Were they physically dead? A simple yes or no will reveal the truth here. If Paul were writing to you today, and said, "You are dead" would you be physically dead? Also, try that with how you apply "we."
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
In case you did not realise, the text said it is the wheat which are the sons of the kingdom,(vs 38) and then at the resurrection they the wheat will shine as the sun (vs 43). In Daniel12 it says they will shine as the stars after they are resurrected. Thus being already sons of God, they shine, i.e attain to the glory of angels in the resurrection. Luke 20:36 says they in the resurrection become like angels, and also sons of God, no longer marrying. that is a heightening of sonship (perfection)
povely13 3 years ago
Okay, so now you've renounced your position again. If it is a heightening of sonship/perfection a concept which I agree with especially since Paul spoke of "attaining to the "out resurrection" (ex anastasis) equating it with being made perfect, Phil. 3:11-12. Why would that not refer to his spiritual status as a son of God, especially since he said, that he who has "begun" a good work in you, will perfect it till the day of Christ, (Phil. 1:6)? Had God begun physical resurrection in them? Not!!!
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Sure Paul was referring to a future resurrection, but how far in the future is the question. You argue in the far distant future. He didn't. He said the end/day of the Lord, resurrection had drawn near and would happen in their life time. That's the difference. (Rom. 13:11, 12, 1 Cor. 10:11, Phil. 4:5, Heb. 10:25, 37, James 5:7,8, 1 Pet. 4:7, 17, Rev. 1:1, 3, 22:6, 10. Got any proof for the 21st century? I think not. So you speculate.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
you must explain to me how there could be christians before AD 70 who have partaken of the spiritual resurrection, and yet Paul says when he shall come in your view in AD 70 then they shall also be resurrected? Clearly your view will be saying there were no true christians until AD 70 which is a very false statement and denies that the apostles were saved. 1 Cor15 and 1 thess 4 all speak off resurrection of christians, a resurrection to eternal life. thus they all died as saints!(believers)
povely13 3 years ago
That which proves too much proves nothing. In your view, we would not even be Christians/sons of God today, because Jesus said, we become sons of God being sons of the resurrection in the "age to come" Luke 20:36. So now the question is back in your lap. How do we become sons of God apart from resurrection in the age to come!?! Now according to the text, we don't become sons of God until we are as the angels and cannot die anymore. So how do you like your future physical body res. view now?
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
That's one of the best questions you've asked. Study the "already but not yet." Even though the scriptures teach the saints were spiritually raised in Christ, it was not complete. Rom. 6:4-5, expresses a "real future" using both future and aorist sub. (translated as future) BTW, it's the same Grk. construction as 1 Cor. 15:49. The resurrection Christ affirmed was one where the saints would never die if they believed, Jn. 8:51, 52; 11:25, 26, therefore it could not be physical death.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
if such a thing has ever occured, don't you think Josehphus or some historian might write about it? John says when christ resurrected there was a resurrection of saints, but Paul was not referring to that cuz clearly he wrote after christ's resurrection. You must reckon with the fact that he was referring to a future resurrection and thus the rapture follows. 1 Cor 15, what Paul was answerin to was the view that there is no physical resurrectiion from the dead. IF you say otherwise then
povely13 3 years ago
If you persist in saying that we belongs to the original audience exclusively, then i ask you what part of the bible belongs to you then? You have no word of God spoken to you, our day, or nothing. You are saying God's word is not relevant to us by that interpretation. Besides in 1 Thess he was talking about christians who are asleep as in physcial death, when did it ever occur that God after the resurrection of christ, resurrected dead believers from the grave? that
povely13 3 years ago
You questions fails to distinguish between prophecy, fact and commands. Prophecy no longer prophesies once it is fulfilled. It then becomes fact. That doesn't make it irrelevant, rather it establishes relevance. So your argument is backwards. Solomon wrote, "when the desire comes it is a tree of life, (Prov. 13:12). When did fulfillment of a promise every destroy or nullify that promise? That would nullify every prophecy God fulfilled before Christ's Parousia, including his 1st coming!
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Your view about the Hosea passage concerning resurrection of Israel was fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ.He then restores the true Israel of God both Jew and Gentile throughout the gospel age. 2. The view that those who are not my people, are now my people, was understood by the apostles to point to Gentile salvation, gentiles being made true Jews by the gospel. 3. Your view that We in th bible refers only to Paul's audience is not right. IT refers to all of God's people
povely13 3 years ago
Note that Peter writes to the Diaspora scattered abroad. (1 Peter 1:1) That is a technical term for the the 10 northern tribes, the same ones scattered per 2 Kings 17, and addressed in Hos. Note what Peter says of them in ch. 2:9 and compare with Hos. 1:10, 11, 2:23. God scattered them among the Gentiles. Thus the call of the Gentiles includes the call of the Northern tribes, i.e. scattered Israel. Thus to Shiloh was the gathering of the people, (Gen. 49:10). Your assertion on "we" needs proof.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Being that you claim that the passage saying "We shall not all sleep..." was referring specifically to first century saints, rather than saints in general, would you mind giving an example of a first century saint who shuffled off of the mortal coil by more more than purely natural means?
ThatChristian 3 years ago
Mortal means subject to death. Paul wrote in Romans 8:10, If Christ is in you, the body is dead. He could not therefore have spoken of a physical body. Yet, there is no question that he called it the mortal body. See verse 11. That means "mortal body" refers to something other than "physical body" and it all had to be accomplished through the eschatological ministry of the Spirit which was completed in 70 A.D. 2 Cor. 5:3-5, shows they were clothed with new before demise of the old, -not naked.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Honestly, I don't see that you have answered my question. By "sleep" we do indeed agree that Paul is referring to physical death, correct?
ThatChristian 3 years ago
Brother, as you can see my replies to this guy is going no where. Becareful about him, he is deceived, and bent on denying the hope of the gospel. Lets watch over ourselves especially against these who upset the faith of God's people and shake them concerning their inheritance. He surely does not speak of God but of the power of the prince of darkness.Angel of light but an angel of darkness indeed, denying the gospel which promise both real and spiritual salvation from sin. Peace be with u
povely13 3 years ago
Povely, what you can see is that you are not getting anywhere with those physical arguments. That's why you can't and won't answer the questions. So, again, WHAT RESURRECTION HAD GOD BEGUN IN N.T. SAINTS IN THE FIRST CENTURY? HOW WHERE THEY DEAD, WHILE YET PHYSICALLY ALIVE? HOW WERE THEY HIDDEN WHILE PHYSICALLY VISIBLE? Go ahead and say physical and see how much sense that makes! God was revealing what was hidden. Let's use your "we" understanding and say "Povely is hidden." Well are you?, How?
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Two groups were asleep in 1 Cor. 15. Ver. 18, speaks of those who have fallen asleep "in Christ." Those are Christians who died "after" Pentecost (Acts 2). Verse 20, says Christ is the firstfruits of those who "have fallen" asleep, meaning those of the O. C. who died "before" Christ's death, i.e. the dead ones, whose resurrection was being denied. That difference is critical in Paul's argument. Yes, the 1st group were dead physically but also spiritually not raised from Hades, Sin/Law, v. 55-56.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Last sentence should read "the 2nd group..." See on Hebrews 9:15 regarding the redemption of the transgressions under the "first testament" and Heb. 11:39, 40, where they all died in faith not having received the promise that they (O.T. saints, --the "dead ones) without us (N.T. firstfruits saints, the living ones) could not be made perfect/resurrected from sin death, i.e. hades, sin/law, per above.
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Your response seems a bit "choppy", so let me tell you how I have interpreted it. It appears that what you are saying is that Paul is claiming that "we will not all [fall spiritually asleep]". This (falling asleep spiritually), you seem to further interpret as meaning to be denied a place in the resurrection.
Do I understand you correctly?
ThatChristian 3 years ago
You are not. I understand Paul to say, "we" (1st century Christians) who are physically alive, will not all die before the Parousia -same as Mt. 24:34. See on v. 6, where some of the 500+ brethren died. Not all would, but some would remain alive until the Parousia, as with John, (Jn 21:22,23). Only the dead ones [O.T. Israel] were being denied resurrection, which if not raised, meant N.T. saints were also yet in their sins, v. 17. All were part of the same harvest but each in own his order v.23
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago
Alright. That makes infinitely more sense.
Your argument is that Paul is saying that not all 1st Century Saints will die before Christ's coming. Correct?
ThatChristian 3 years ago
"Now read the Truth from Jesus Himself: Matthew 5:17"
Jesus did fulfill the Law. That's why we don't need to sacrifice. Read Hebrews.
fardawg 3 years ago
"Also God is Love and what is His will not have to suffer His Wrath. When the Church is taken home, THAT is when the entire planet of unbelieving sinners will be decimated."
They didn't, they fled Jerusalem. They did however suffer persecution under the Jewish leadership and the Beast of Rome they served. You should read Eusibius', Josephus' and Tacitus' accounts of the War and the accounts of persecution under Nero.
fardawg 3 years ago
The Saints fled Israel i.e. came out of Babylon (Rev. 18:4) per Jesus' command to flee (Luke 21:20-24 and Matt.& Mark parallels) and didn't have to endure the destruction of Jerusalem. (see Eusebius' account of the destruction of Jerusalem)
fardawg 3 years ago
I do not "negate" Revelation, I believe what it says came true when it said it was to come true. That is except for Chapter 20. I believe we are in the Millennial Reign (Acts 26:18; 1 Corinthians 3:21,22; Ephesians 1:20-;2:6; Colossians 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Revelation 1:20) which is not literally 1000 years (cf. Deuteronomy 1:11; 7:9 Psalm 50:10; 84:10; 90:4) and Christ will return at the end to Resurrect the Dead both the Just and unjust Matthew 13:36--43; Rev. 20:11-15.
fardawg 3 years ago
Just to clarify, when I said "I believe what it says came true when it said it was to come true. That is except for Chapter 20." I meant that I believe that Chapter 20 represents an ongoing period of time from the time of Christ up to the General Resurrection and Judgment in the future, NOT that it didn't happen when it was supposed to or was delayed somehow.
fardawg 3 years ago
So then if you believe some events already happened, how do you interpret the mark of the Beast, if you don't mind me asking?
Because my view is it is going to be the One World Currency of the new worldwide government aka the New World Order. The Bilderberg Group/Trilateral Commission/Council on Foreign Relations (global elite bankers) are building it now. When the global economy crashes, they will bring the mark for all to take, or face death. It will be a tattoo like a UPC code.
Peace
renzaura 3 years ago
"if you believe some events already happened, how do you interpret the mark of the Beast"
The Mark of the Beast is a symbol for giving your mind (forehead) and your deeds (hand) to the Beast. The Beast was the Roman Empire, personified at the time of writing by Nero. People had to burn incense to the Emperor to show that they worshiped him as a god.
To be continued...
fardawg 3 years ago
When they did this they were given a document called a libellus which they could present as proof that they had done this. If they didn't have this paper they couldn't buy or sell in the markets. This is contrasted in Revelation by the Mark given by God which I believe is the Seal of the Holy Spirit representing loyalty to Christ. To stretch the Mark into a computer chip implant is just that, a stretch.
fardawg 3 years ago
I understand the "mind" and "deeds" concept but that is still different from not being able to buy or sell across the entire planet.
Also, the mark is NOT a computer chip implant, I agree. That has already been proven wrong because of health complications.
The tattoo will be a combination of SS, driver's license, passport, etc because cash will no longer be used at all.
We are still using cash now so the mark is not yet here. When it comes, it will be a spiritual symbol of allegiance.
renzaura 3 years ago
"I understand the "mind" and "deeds" concept but that is still different from not being able to buy or sell across the entire planet."
Did you read my second post about the libellus?
fardawg 3 years ago
As for "the entire planet" Revelation never says that about His Wrath. There are 3 words translated world in Revelation; Oikoumene, which means the Roman Empire (see Luke 2:1); Ge, which is best translated here as "Land", seen prophetically as the "Land of Israel" (note that the focus in Matt. 24 etc. was Jerusalem. The same goes for Revelation.) and Kosmos, which generally means the entire world/universe. Nowhere does it use Kosmos when speaking of the Wrath of God.
fardawg 3 years ago
Yes, I read that post. The libellus is not the mark because the mark will be for the entire planet AFTER all the other other prophecies in Revelation are fulfilled.
Even if those people back then could not buy and sell, people are still able to today without any documentation whatsover.
The mark will come and no one will be able to trade going forward. As in, complete inability for commerce. Period.
There is no global dictator and there are no 7 trumpets or 7 bowls of God's fury...YET.
renzaura 3 years ago
I don't plan on being here when that happens because I belong to the Lord God Almighty and His seal is upon me. I will pass the final filter test of the mark when it comes and then God's Wrath will be upon the world, for He will finally know who is His and who is not.
God will let satan has have his way and satan will wreck havoc upon the world.
People will understand what happens to them who serve the lying devil and themselves. Their souls were the most prized possessions in the universe.
renzaura 3 years ago
"I don't plan on being here when that happens because I belong to the Lord God Almighty and His seal is upon me."
The Christians back then had the same idea and fled Jerusalem because they heeded God's Word!
Don't you think its a pretty big leap to think the people in that day would think the destruction of Jerusalem within one generation from when Jesus prophesied its destruction was just a coincidence and think "Nooo, Jesus was talking about the NEXT Temple 2000 years from now!"
fardawg 3 years ago
Predictions are always being made. No one knows for sure unless they study the entire bible, and even then they are relying on their interpretation of God's Word.
For me I think it's great we are discussing our beliefs because I know that intelligence is God's way of saying...have conviction in your faith.
We'll see. If I see you in Heaven, I will shake your hand & we can laugh about this rapture discussion. God's mercy is higher than Judgment. That's Love now for those that accept Christ.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Predictions are always being made. No one knows for sure unless they study the entire bible..."
That's why I take in the entire understanding of the language used. Jesus said that "this generation" would not die out before they saw the temple destroyed and the sign that He was reigning in Heaven as the Son of Man. Reading Josephus and Tacitus is an eye opener because you can see God's word fulfilled from their non-Christian perspective.
fardawg 3 years ago
I believe people should start with Matthew 23 before going into 24. 23 makes it clear that He told the Scribes and Pharisees that the blood of the innocent would come upon "their" "generation" and it did. They saw the sign on earth that He was reigning above in the Temple's destruction because they knew Daniel's prophecies. When you take the Bible beyond it's context that is when wild speculations can creep in.
fardawg 3 years ago
I'm sure we will be laughing together in Heaven. Maybe because we were both wrong and the Historicist view was the right one! ;)
fardawg 3 years ago
"the mark because the mark will be for the entire planet"
It never says that. The Tribulation was localized in Israel and the Roman Empire (see remarks on the Greek words translated "world". The Mark was for those living at that time under Roman rule.
"Even if those people back then could not buy and sell, people are still able to today without any documentation whatsover."
Ummm... Thats the point. It was for that time and was fulfilled back then under the rule of the Roman Beast!
fardawg 3 years ago
Revelation was for the whole world, not just the Jews or the Roman Empire. That's why it has not yet been fulfilled completely.
Those early christians pigeonholed the scriptures just like people do today by not knowing CONTEXT.
renzaura 3 years ago
Well, if even ONE verse has not be fulfilled then your entire view of the other Revelation chapters is wrong about it already happening.
Wouldn't you agree?
Nibiru, imo is in chapter 8. It'll be here in 2012 so that's why Revelation is for what's YET to come.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Well, if even ONE verse has not be fulfilled then your entire view of the other Revelation chapters is wrong about it already happening.
Wouldn't you agree?"
If it wasn't fulfilled when it was said to take place then yes. But as I said I misspoke. I believe that up through chapter 19 was supposed to and did come true. Chapter 20 starts in AD 70, with allusions to Christ's first coming, and extends into our day. It is being fulfilled now.
fardawg 3 years ago
Chapters 1-19 could NOT have come true already. It's impossible because God's Wrath is severe. Mankind will know when God's Wrath is here. There is absolutely no way it's already here.
Also God is Love and what is His will not have to suffer His Wrath. When the Church is taken home, THAT is when the entire planet of unbelieving sinners will be decimated.
Only now, in the Age of Grace can anyone receive mercy because God is slow to anger. The Age of Grace to gentiles ends with the rapture.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Chapters 1-19 could NOT have come true already. It's impossible because God's Wrath is severe. Mankind will know when God's Wrath is here. There is absolutely no way it's already here."
Tell that to the woman who ate her own baby during the siege of Jerusalem. See Josephus's War of the Jews.
fardawg 3 years ago
Single events do not fulfill many scripture.
Revelation 8:7 (ALL grass will be burned)
I still see grass on earth.
Revelation 8:12 (The sun and moon and stars have not yet been struck)
They still shine as they did since creation.
Revelation 9:16 (There has never been an army of 200 Million strong in the history of war because it has yet to be fulfilled.)
Revelation 11 (No stories of two prophets coming back to life. It would have been in the history books for sure if it happened)
etc.etc.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Single events do not fulfill many scripture..."
The same prophetic language was used in the Old Testament concerning the fall of Kings. The lights being dimmed and the falling of stars do not have to be taken literally, especially given the symbolic nature of Revelation. See. Gen. 37:9,10; Isa. 13:1-22; Isa 34:4-7; Ezek. 32:1-8. If I said its raining cats and dogs would you take it that there are real dogs and cats falling from the sky?
fardawg 3 years ago
It all depends on the context. A person using Windows on a computer is not the same as opening a draft for the house.
Those that read will understand what the Lord means when He speaks.
Matthew 13:13
Acts 28:26-27
renzaura 3 years ago
Again, I want to add for clarification that I am a "Partial Preterist" which means I believe in a future Coming of Christ to Resurrect the dead in Christ and translate those living into glorified bodies and to Judge the unjust dead.
I also want to say that I am not quick to call Full Preterists heretics.
fardawg 3 years ago
Daniel was told to "seal up" the prophecy because the time was far off and was for the "time of the end" Dan. 8:26; Dan. 12:4
John was told to NOT seal up Revelation for the "time is near"
Rev. 22:10 "And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."
fardawg 3 years ago
From Daniel to Revelation was about 400 years; from Revelation to our time is around 2000 years. How can 400 be far away and 2000 be near? From Rev. to the destruction of Jerusalem was around 6 years, give or take.
Nero was the personification of the Beast Empire (he was the "one is" king of Rev. 17)The original audience was told that they could, with wisdom, calculate the number of his name and Nero's name adds to 666.
fardawg 3 years ago
Attention: Bell is a full/hyper-preterist which is outside of orthodox Christianity unlike partial/orthodox-preterism.
damildlyshreddah 3 years ago
how u lose sonship
Jamarion06 3 years ago
The Rapture is very soon. Many backslidden "self-professing" christians will be left behind because they did NOT have oil in their lamps. They will go to hell.
Salvation is in the heart and the heart is the wellspring of life.
If you do not repent, you perish. The Christian walk is EVERY DAY. Not whenever you feel like it.
Once Israel's enemies surround Jerusalem, the tribulation begins, and the Wedding Feast of the Lamb will be enjoyed in the third heaven.
Keep Watch,those that LOVE God.
renzaura 3 years ago
Jerusalem was surrounded, stated by Christ when, IN THAT GENERATION, AD66-70
FullPreterist 3 years ago
Jerusalem will be surrounded again, to fulfill the Scriptures and for the 3rd temple to be rebuilt when the Antichrist reings over the earth, for a short time.
The Holy Spirit will be taken away before God's Wrath is poured.
2Thessalonians 2:3,7
Nazi prison camps will be like Disneyland compared to what is to come when the devil possesses the man of sin, the son of perdition, after he is resurrected to fool the whole world.
renzaura 3 years ago
Renzaura, did you listen to this video? Israel's armies already surrounded Jerusalem in the last days (of the old covenant.) You're already feasting with the Lamb because He's been in His fullness here since AD70! Praise God! His kingdom does not come w/ observation and it is within you.
trace433 3 years ago
trace433, the Wedding Feast is the consummation of marriage to the Lamb.
If you think marriage is like the engagement then you have missed out on the beauty and purity of God's plan.
Israel's armies? Ezekiel talks about the enemies of Israel...and Russia and Iran have already formed an alliance, not fulfilled since Ezekiel prophesied, UNTIL NOW...for the END is near.
PlanetX/Nibiru is the destroyer. Look to the sky! 2011, you will know but by then the church could be in heaven. Get Ready!
renzaura 3 years ago
Ren, you're the one missing out because you're waiting for something that has already arrived, please read my page on how I came to the preterist view at my website, preterism dottripod dotcom.
ravens2255 3 years ago
ravens2255, it's unfortunate that you pick and choose scripture. You deny the entire book of Revelation? Every chapter explains what is yet to come. The old testament is recorded to give us the plan of future events. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17
Matthew 24-25 destroys the preterist view. I suggest you read it. God is HOLY and the rapture is Not the 2nd coming.
Pray for the Holy Spirit's wisdom and receive it from others. Only then will you understand.
renzaura 3 years ago
renzaura
Read Matt. 24 and Mark 13 in light of Luke 21. Luke knew that the "abomination of desolation" would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was "surrounded by armies" and that it would be destroyed within their generation and the Jews would "die by the sword" and "be led captive into all nations". Jesus used apocalyptic language that was used in the Old Testament regarding the fall of Babylon by the Medes (see Isaiah 13)for the Romans destroying Jerusalem in AD 70.
PS.I am a Partial Preterist.
fardawg 3 years ago
Re: fardawg
The "abomination of desolation" is yet to come and will be done by the global elite's Antichrist. When you see the One World Government established soon, and the new world currency (the mark, a tattoo), the world will be finally be 1. For or 2. Against God Almighty.
Then Revelation 3:10 will come to pass with the rapture.
renzaura 3 years ago
The AOD came when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem, as Jesus said it would, within the 40 year generation. The Disciples were told "when YOU see the abomination of desolation/Jerusalem surrounded by armies" They saw these things come to pass. Read Josephus', Eusebius' and Tacitus' accounts of the siege and signs in the heavens that preceded it. Christ's words were fulfilled and He will come again to judge the living and the dead at the end of time. His Second Coming is the only thing left.
fardawg 3 years ago
Rev. 3:10 was written to the literal "church in Philadelphia". If these words were meant for a future generation then God deceived the Philadelphia church. There is no proof beyond dispensational fantasies that the 7 Churches represent 7 time periods. The words were meant for the actual 7 churches and the churches who were also in tribulation at that time. We can apply their message to any church who is going through the type of things they did but we must consider original audience relevance.
fardawg 3 years ago
The 7 Churches also represent the different closeness to God in the Body of Christ. Some are one way, others another.
They are a SYMBOL in Revelation for all Christians to take heed of action+consequence and learn from others' walk of faith.
renzaura 3 years ago
The wedding feast was the marriage of Christ to His Bride, i.e. true Israel, after His divorce of the Harlot, i.e. apostate Israel, which was signaled by the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.
True Israel is any Jew or Gentile who is saved by the Blood of the Lamb.
fardawg 3 years ago
The wedding feast is for the Bride of Christ, which is the Church (Messianic Jews + Born-Again Gentiles)
Israel is the Bride of the Father and that is why Mosaic Law will return after the rapture of the saints. It is only then when the Church is GONE, that the Jews will realize their harlotry against the Father.
Only Messianic Jews see the Light right now. The unsaved Jews are still blind and lost.
renzaura 3 years ago
"The wedding feast is for the Bride of Christ, which is the Church (Messianic Jews + Born-Again Gentiles)"
Yes.
"Israel is the Bride of the Father and that is why Mosaic Law will return after the rapture of the saints."
No. Gal. 5:1-18; Eph. 2:13-16; Phil 8:8,9; Hbr. 7:11-19; 24-27; 10:1-22.
fardawg 3 years ago
There is no pre-tribulation Rapture in scripture. 1 Cor. 15:22-24 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power."
fardawg 3 years ago
Yes, Israel is the Bride of the Father.
Being born-again doesn't change the old testament convenant with Israel whatsoever.
The new convenant in Jesus' blood is another convenant and God always keeps His Word.
Israel (unsaved Jews), the Father's wife, will have one more chance when God takes the Church home.
renzaura 3 years ago
The Gentiles, however, will be doomed when the AGE OF GRACE ends with the rapture.
Revelation 9:20-21
If a gentile is not saved by the time the rapture happens (left behind), they go to hell because they do not have any wedding clothes on. The Ark's door will be shut forever just like in Noah's time.
renzaura 3 years ago
The people in Rev. 9 are doomed because they did not repent, not because they missed the rapture. Anyone who is not saved when Christ Resurrects the dead, both the just and unjust at one time at the end, is doomed, Jew or Gentile. Matt. 13:24-30;36-43
No one can be saved outside God's Grace by the sacrifice of Jesus. Israel is not separate from the Gentiles. All Christians, Jew and Gentile, are true Israel. Galatians 3:26-29. Hebrews 8:7-13; Romans 4:13-25.
fardawg 3 years ago
Only Messianic Jews during the great tribulation will be saved when God's Wrath comes because the Church will be gone in the Rapture.
Revelation 14
Most Jews don't even recognize Jesus as God. That is why there is still the old Israel. That's my distinction until Revelation 14 is fulfilled when finally all Jews recognize Jesus Christ as Lord. They will only see the Light later, not in this current time of Grace.
renzaura 3 years ago
Read Revelation 9 again VERY carefully. Verse 20
That's EVERYONE that's living...they will not repent. When God's Wrath comes, everyone that's on earth will suffer greatly.
What's God's will be safely in Heaven because He would have already come for those that are saved. Read Revelation 3:10 again VERY carefully.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Read Revelation 9 again VERY carefully. Verse 20 That's EVERYONE that's living...they will not repent. When God's Wrath comes, everyone that's on earth will suffer greatly."
Read Eusebius. The Christians fled and those "left behind" felt God's wrath.
fardawg 3 years ago
"Israel (unsaved Jews), the Father's wife, will have one more chance when God takes the Church home."
They have one chance before they die like all of us.
fardawg 3 years ago
Everyone has one chance now because we are in the Age of Grace.
When the Day of the Lord is here and His Furious Wrath comes, the entire world is doomed except He will remember His convenant with Israel. ONLY they will have a chance when His Wrath comes. Everyone else is going to die a horrible death for God is UNSTOPPABLE and the proud people will be ashes under His feet.
God does not lie.
Hebrews 6:18
The most terrible destruction is coming soon.
Matthew 24
His patience will end.
renzaura 3 years ago
"He will remember His convenant with Israel." "God does not lie. Hebrews 6:18"
Read Hebrews 8:7-13. He has made the old covenant obsolete and the New one is stronger. He has grafted in Gentiles and pruned apostate Jews. It is only when they come to Christ that Jews are saved and grafted back into Israel, not separate from the Church.
Put down your charts and read the Bible for what it says.
fardawg 3 years ago
Yes, all can come to God now because yes the New Convenant in Jesus' Blood is the master plan.
But you forget that God's people, the Jews, are still loved because He does not abolish the old covenant to those that don't believe in the new convenant. The new covenant replaces the old but the old is still there also. Israel is still the Father's bride and that will never change.
renzaura 3 years ago
"He does not abolish the old covenant to those that don't believe in the new convenant."
Yes He does. Galatians 3:10-14; Rom. 9:30-10:4
fardawg 3 years ago
"He does not abolish the old covenant to those that don't believe in the new convenant."
>Yes He does. Galatians 3:10-14; Rom. 9:30-10:4
Nope. It depends on the FAITH of the person. Your verses spell it out.
Now read the Truth from Jesus Himself: Matthew 5:17
renzaura 3 years ago
"ONLY they will have a chance when His Wrath comes."
Prove it.
fardawg 3 years ago
Revelation 14 and the understanding of the ENTIRE book of Revelation spells it out to all those with the Holy Spirit that seek the truth.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Revelation 14 and the understanding of the ENTIRE book of Revelation spells it out to all those with the Holy Spirit that seek the truth."
In other words only those who believe what you do have the Holy Spirit. You should join the JW's.
fardawg 3 years ago
I never said that. I meant the Holy Spirit will tell you what is Truth. Your own understanding will depend on how you know your Bible.
If you know bits and pieces, then you can be deceived. Judge according to the wisdom given you. The rapture is going to happen and you'll believe then but that's too bad you don't know it as Truth now because you personally don't know any eagles (end time prophets).
1Corinthians 14:1-5
renzaura 3 years ago
"Being born-again doesn't change the old testament convenant with Israel whatsoever."
If they are not born again they are pruned away. Romans 11:11-24. It is only if they believe in Christ that they are grafted back in and receive the promise. No one is saved apart from Christ.
fardawg 3 years ago
I was speaking of the live Jews. The Father still views them as His wife. The Church is Jesus' bride and they are separate and distinct.
Yet all Messianic Jews are also a part of the new covenant.
When a person dies, yes, they are judged like anyone else.
renzaura 3 years ago
"I was speaking of the live Jews. The Father still views them as His wife."
They (unbelieving Jews) have been pruned from the root and are not Abraham's descendants according to the promise. Romans 11 etc.
fardawg 3 years ago
>They (unbelieving Jews) have been pruned from the root and are not Abraham's descendants according to the promise. Romans 11 etc.
They have been pruned yes, but they are STILL descendants of Abraham by bloodline, not by spirit. Only through Christ are we under the 2nd Adam, by the new convenant.
renzaura 3 years ago
"They have been pruned yes, but they are STILL descendants of Abraham by bloodline, not by spirit. Only through Christ are we under the 2nd Adam, by the new convenant."
And the only way they will ever be grafted in is by coming to Christ just like all of us, not by the restoration of the Old Covenant system.
fardawg 3 years ago
Yes, and the only way that will happen is when the Jews finally realize Jesus Christ IS the messiah after the Antichrist desolates the third temple in Jerusalem, AFTER the Church is already in Heaven.
They'll wake up spiritually after centuries of whoring and the Father will take them back, but they will suffer greatly when satan has his way on the earth because they are deceived even now.
renzaura 3 years ago
"the only way that will happen is when the Jews finally realize Jesus Christ IS the messiah after the Antichrist desolates the third temple in Jerusalem, AFTER the Church is already in Heaven."
There is no Third Temple. Jesus was talking about the Second Temple that was standing right in front of Him. Read Josephus concerning the abomination of the Temple during the War. God will never be in the Temple again so there would be nothing to desolate. A 3rd Temple would be an abomination itself.
fardawg 3 years ago
The Islamic Dome of the Rock is where the third temple should be. After the rapture there will be a third temple because the Antichrist will deceive the whole world into worshipping him as the Jews will believe he's the messiah, coming through peace at first, then after 3 1/2 years, he will show his true colors.
Mark 13:14
Revelation 16:21
Get ready for 100 pound hailstones never before seen in the history of mankind. God's Wrath will be extremely severe for the unsaved.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Revelation 16:21
Get ready for 100 pound hailstones never before seen in the history of mankind. God's Wrath will be extremely severe for the unsaved."
Read Josephus. The Jews sure did!
fardawg 3 years ago
fardawg, Josephus was mistaken. Those were not hailstones. Those were white boulders. The Jews know the difference and the WORD of God knows the difference too.
The largest hailstones in recorded history were only 2.25 lbs!
snurl. com / 3ba5d
The heaviest hailstones on record reportedly weighed 2.25 pounds and killed 92 people in
Gopalganj, a district of Bangladesh, on April 14, 1986.
renzaura 3 years ago
"fardawg, Josephus was mistaken. Those were not hailstones. Those were white boulders."
Revelation uses symbolism and the fact that the description of the stones is so close to the "hailstones" is one of many historical confirmations that show John was seeing visions of the Roman/Jewish war. That you would claim Josephus was wrong, and I don't understand exactly how you think he was wrong, is incredible.
fardawg 3 years ago
Do you believe there will be an actual woman clothed with the son? Do you believe the Antichrist will actually be one of seven heads on a real monster coming from the sea? Do you believe in Godzilla too?
fardawg 3 years ago
The symbols must be understood by their context.
The Antichrist is a man of course. The beast is a symbol of his attributes like all the other animal symbols of the Bible.
It's the same like I know Windows on a computer is a program and not an actual window. You know by context.
1. Is it literal?
2. Is it a spiritual symbol?
then move on....
renzaura 3 years ago
"The symbols must be understood by their context. The Antichrist is a man of course. The beast is a symbol of his attributes like all the other animal symbols of the Bible."
The context of the entire "vision" is symbolism. Why must they be literal hailstones if this is a vision? Would it be wrong to think there is a literal pregnant woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon and twelve stars on her head?
fardawg 3 years ago
Hailstones does not equal stones. John knew the difference, that's the point.
renzaura 3 years ago
"Hailstones does not equal stones. John knew the difference, that's the point."
Did he know the difference between a composite Beast with seven heads and a European Dictator? I'm not saying he saw the stones, I'm saying he saw a vision of hailstones that represented the destruction by catapulted stones.
fardawg 3 years ago
"No one is saved apart from Christ"
Actually God saved the Jews before Christ came. They were in Sheol (Abraham's bosom), until Jesus took the keys of hell and then they were brought to the third heaven. hell now only consists of Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna. Sheol is gone.
God does not negate the old covenant even though the new covenant replaces the old. That is why the Jews are still distinct as a people.
renzaura 3 years ago
renzaura
Look up "The Beast of Revelation identified" videos by Ken Gentry here on youtube.
The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was the divorce from apostate Israel and the sign of the Marriage of the Lamb to His Bride. Outside of Christ there is no salvation. There is no Rapture to separate the Bride from Israel because they are one and the same.
fardawg 3 years ago
The Resurrection and Rapture is the gathering of all who are in Christ. There is no salvation for ANYONE after it. 1 Cor. 15:22-26
fardawg 3 years ago
You should not negate the Book of Revelation. That is the END of the story.
It is yet to be fulfilled and the rapture will allow Christians to not have to endure the final test(great tribulation), After the Mark.
Revelation 3:10, Revelation 19 tells you where the saints will be DURING the tribulation on earth. They will be at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.
renzaura 3 years ago
Israel is the bride of the Father and the Church is the bride of Christ. They can be separate because God is 3 separate persons also, yet One God.
Israel is the spiritual symbol of God's people so that people would understand how God views what's His...when they receive Christ. How God treated Israel in the old testament was a PICTURE of how He views everyone in the new convenant, yet the unsaved Jews are still God's chosen people even if some join the Body of Christ.
renzaura 3 years ago
trace433
I listened to the video (all of his) and I hear a man terribly distorting the word of God.
Revelation makes it clear that Christ will go to battle IN DEFENSE OF Jerusalem. This never happened in A.D. 70. The Romans won, sacked the city and burned down the temple. In the future battle, Christ will destroy the armies (which will be of ALL NATIONS, not just Rome.). The Roman army was not destroyed by Christ.
Preterism is false. JUST PLAIN NONSENSE.
HaveUconsidered 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Warning:
the 2nd Coming did NOT take place in AD 70. Nor did the rest of the Eschatological Complex:
The Resurrection
The Final Judgment
The Last Day/ Beginning of The Eternal State
To get straight on eschatology go to PreteristSiteDOTcom - 100% Heresy-Free.
...for the truth
kingofkleen1 3 years ago
ATF, in the book of Peter, it says that "with the Lord a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are as one day". According to scripture, life is like a vapor. So, things coming to pass "shortly" just may not be measureable in the manner you suggest.
TheWordCenter 3 years ago
Well, if shortly can mean a long time or literally thousands of years as you imply, does a "long time" mean a "short time?" See Matthew 25:19. Let me warn you that whatever the "long time" in Matthew 25:19 is, it all happens within the lifetime of a man and "his" servants. The parable says the kingdom was likened to a man, not to God! So to be consistent with the intent of the parable, one must use time from man's point of view!
AllThingsFulfilled 3 years ago