Love never fails. God will never fail. If He truly loves people, He wouldn't torture them for all of eternity. Love & eternal torment cannot go together. God is just, yes, but He is not cruel.
1 Tim 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 John 2:2- He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
its great to see the different churches invent nonsense explanations for things said in the far past which had no sense and were used only to calm people :)
please stop inventing and admit crap when its reall CRAP!
Try reading the Epic of Gilgamesh & E.A.Wallis Budge translation of, 'The Papyrus of Ani' (1500BCE comp O.T.800-300BCE ish), other great writings are by Donald A. Mackenzie,' Egyptian myth and legend', James G Frazer, 'The Golden Bough', For sceptical Bible scholars try Robert M Price, Valerie Tarico, Dan Barker, John W. Loftus, Bart Ehrman, Gary Greenberg book '101 myths of the Bible', Richard Carrier, David Mills, Ken Humphreys, archaeologist Israel Finkelstein
Purgatory is a lie. When Jesus was on the cross said that it is finished. So He done it all for those who believe in Him only. By His grace we are saved. Purgatory was invented. Or you're with God or you're with Satan. There's no middle way. The way, the truth and the life are only Jesus. Through Him we can go in the Kingdom of God....no one else no matter how much you're rich so that you can leave to the Roman Church to pray for you. They will benefit, not you.
@PhyllisienneBrincat You like David Jeremiah and John Piper misunderstand and misrepresent what Catholics believe about purgatory. Purgatory is only for people who are saved by the shedding of Blood of Jesus Christ. No one in Purgatory is lost and will go to hell. It is not a "middle ground" where people are given a "second chance." So many who run down the Catholic church dont know what it teaches.
You guys who don't agree about Christians having a 'struggle' - have you never read what Paul says about his struggle in Romans 7? No - we can never win that struggle by our own efforts, but it is still a struggle. I think N T Wright talks a lot of sense
a mixed mesage. purgatory is fiction, but to reduce life to purgatory and make holiness a matter of struggle is legalism, protestant purgatory, as it were.
moving closer to entering the sabbath rest of the believer i reject his talk about struggling to be holy. I am not holy and never will be by my efforts or struggle, but by God's grace administered in His gentleness by His Spirit there is rest and no struggle, and holiness comes that way.
"it is death itself that finishes off that which needs to be finished off" This sound quite Eastern Orthodox. The more I listen to NT Wright, the more I find him in line with Eastern Orthodox thought. Good stuff
Dude, nicely put lol Pugatory is a metaphor for life on earth, if we are in Christ. Since this is sort of a waiting period for us who are in Christ, thats actually pretty cool thinking. Now, I dont believe in purgatory in the catholic sense, but I like were he was going with that.
Guess, in the catholic sense, he doesn't believe in purgatory.But nicely put on how the struggle we have in following Christ here is the suffering and temptation we face which ends at death.Guess it is also with how we are justified by Christ, but then become sanctified as we live.then at death we a glorified.
Purgatory as a metaphor for the Christian life? I don't think so! True faith is a 'quitting' of self-effort and struggle to 'become holy'. If there's any struggle involved in the Christian life, it is merelythe mind's reluctance to 'let go' and receive the Good News of Christ in us the hope of glory.
@thepickletrain because being a christians means that you follow and connect with Jesus Christ. That also means that you will have a relationship with the one who is Lord, and you will live with the true love - for eternity. Not a bad thing at all..
@thepickletrain God says there is a heaven and hell. Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, go to heaven, those that reject Him go to hell. It is as simple as that. It is not about a religion, or a system or do's and don'ts. Jesus NEVER preached a religion.
To say that purgatory is a necessary purification is to deny that the grace of God is sufficient. 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
There is nothing in the bible that says you need to be baptized to go to heaven. Baptism is a symbol. I am a Christian but not catholic, so I find some of the doctrine of the catholic church to be wrong.
@flarezone You are right, my friend. Nowhere in the Word of God does God says that baptism saves you. As a Christian, you will find most, if not all of the teachings and doctrines of the roman catholic organisation to be unbiblical and anti-Christian, such as purgatory, popes, priests, ever-virgin mary, assumption of mary, confession to priests, indulgances, forbidding meats on friday, nuns, extreme unction, statue making, idolatry, etc.
@kiwichristian2009 Do you have anything from the bible that discusses something other than water baptism? The thief on the cross was under the old covenant, as jesus was not yet resurrected to implement a new covenant.
Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
I can tell people didn't listen to this video AT ALL. Wright was explicitly clear in his rejection of purgatory, (without using the word rejection...this is called wisdom, particularly when you want to win souls) however he acknowledged that it does present a compelling parallel to the sanctification process to which I agree.
I believe in "outer darkness'" as outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. Most Christians will lose the reward and go to outer darkness. It's like a brightly lit house, an you stand afar off not allowed in because you were a carnal Christian. You will have to wait till the 1000 years is finished to be rejoined with the overcomer believers and Jesus when we go into the New City.
we are being lied to our human d&a as been manipulated 30,000 years ago and the churches & politicains do'nt want us to know wake up you morons in investigate this please before it's too late
Purgatory is not in the Bible and is not spoken of by God or Jesus. It is a heretical fabrication by which some pope said that what you do on earth affects the afterlife. In fact Jesus is very clear: The only way to heaven is to worship and love God with all your heart mind and spirit. That is all that matters: not any earthly deed.
@CloudsofBliss my father used to be a Jew (before he converted) and due to his doctorate in theology I think that he is more correct than you are in saying, it chuffing well isn't it was invented post Jesus' cruxifiction by a pope who's name escapes me.
but your father isn't a expert one his theology nor teacher. Jews don't believe in eternal hell but a termporay punishment. Also,they believe in purgatory.
Its either your father aren't hardcore or he isn't serious on his religion.
The Protestant christianty ruined the bible by misconceptions and mistranslation of the bible.
@CloudsofBliss There is not a Jewish purgatory!!!!! Only select few parts of Judaism actually believe in an afterlife. By mistranslation to you mean English? If so i see that if u r still reading in Latin that you care not for the communtiy and for their souls : do they speak Latin? Can they read latin? I think the answer is no. Therefore how can you call yourselves Christian, if you will not even try to love your neighbour?!?
First off, yes it is. There's many things that many people believe that is no afterlife of the Jews, but there is. There is a purgatory. I reasearch about the Jewish afterlife. I like I said, your father isn't the expect or a proffessor, so why I believe in him. He is your father.
Second, I'm not just talking about English lanuage. Have you know the translations during the Reformation? Have you know about the Reformation? The doctrines and the theologians from many leaders are just translations or misconceptions about the teachings of Jesus and Paul. That's why we have many scholars today are now putting new perspective about Jesus and Paul that our early Christian leaders were right all along. Research about the New Perspective of Paul.
Is it where the dead descend to where they no longer remember themselves no longer remember God and not able to register the passage of time??!
What's that place called? Purgatory of the world of the dead?! The dead still descend to that place . . .instead of being judged and sent to heaven or hell
Anyway the bible doesn't teach immediate judgment? The earliest resurrection according to the bible is at Christ second coming!
The word, "rapture" does not appear in the biblical text, that's true. But the actual event is described using word pictures in many of the following bible verses. Anyonhe with the IQ of an ant can't fit the puzzles pieces together. See for yourself, the rapture is described in the following verses: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, and in Daniel 12:2,3.
no bible verse i know of, must come from the imagination of the mind of flesh. In vain do they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
good point, then we should find our understanding from what is written. I've never mentioned rapture the bible teaches the resurrection as in 1 Cor.15:51-57 and 1Thes.4:13-18
@kiwichristian2009 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not referring to a secret "rapture". It's referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus, when we're all caught up to heaven for final judgment at the sound of the trumpet. The rapture is 18th century fantasy. And please don't call me your friend while suggesting me as a lier in the same sentence.
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 says "If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." This seems to be a metaphor for purgatory.
Take a closer look at the context of that passage. It talks about being in the ministry and building upon a foundation. It also speaks about the fire coming on the day of judgment. If you took that passage in its entire context as referring to purgatory, you'd have to say that only ministers go there and that they only go there at judgment day. To say otherwise would be to simply be inconsistent.
Valid point. Augustine allows for the broader interpretation of the passage in City of God, Bk. 21, where he suggests that the fire can refer to both earthly suffering or suffering between death and the general judgement, "..a fire..shall affect those others who have carried with them (wood, hay, stubble) ..if it be said that such worldliness, being venial shall be consumed in the fire of tribulation...here and hereafter both, or here that it might not be hereafter -this I do not contradict.."
@billinmaryland The same Augustine also said in another one of his treatises (The Enchiridion, 69), that although he concedes the possibility of there being a purgatorial fire (being one of the first to do so in history, in fact), he states that this is doubtful and should not be imposed as a doctrine upon anybody.
@billinmaryland "And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it." (Enchiridion, 69)
@Epagonizesthai This little debate is forcing me to learn. Cheaper than a theology course. Augustine goes on in Enchiridion 110 to talk about praying for the dead in more certain terms. It's hard to speculate on a reason for the change in tone from parts 69 to 110. Earlier Fathers Origen, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Clement of Alexandria did write about purgatory.
@billinmaryland Umm actually, no they didn't. Clement and Origen believed in a temporal hell, which would eventually be emptied of everybody in it. Tertullian believed in a sort of "refrigerium." I'm not sure about Cyprian; he may have had some sort of concept of an intermediate state, but it could not have been the medieval doctrine of purgatory.
Look up "The Birth of Purgatory" by historian Jacques Le Goff. It demonstrates that the doctrine only came into being during the middle ages.
@billinmaryland Also do a google search on "An In Channel Debate on Purgatory". You'll find a helpful little article that speaks on the development of this doctrine.
@Epagonizesthai All four Fathers wrote about a painful process of purification from sin that (some) souls must undergo after death before they may enter heaven. Although Clement and Origen believed in a temporal hell, Clement's discussion of the death of a repentant sinner (Patres Groeci IX) and Origen's exegesis of 1 Cor. 3 (Patres Groeci XIII) both refer to those who did not reject Christ in their earthly lives.
@Epagonizesthai Clement wrote "The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment,... ...these punishments cease in the course of expiation of each one,..." Origen wrote "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones but also wood and hay and stubble... It remains that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials..."
@Epagonizesthai Tertullian wrote in A Treatise on the Soul, "he commit you to the prison of hell...until the smallest...delinquencies be paid..." Cyprian wrote in Letters 51(55), "it is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire;" There was a good deal of medieval speculation about the details of purgatory to help people visualize it, but the official teachings of the Catholic Church were and still are vague.
@billinmaryland Do you really want to equate hell with purgatory? Because if you're going to use that Tertullian quote, then that's what you'd be forced to conclude. Also, the Cyprian quote is too short and ambiguous to support a dogma that was formulated centuries later. Really, you seem to be grasping at straws at this point.
@billinmaryland From LeGoff's Book: "Some writers have credited Cyprian with making an important doctrinal contribution to Purgatory as early as the mid-third century. In his Letter to Antonian [Letter 51:20] Cyprian distinguishes between two kinds of Christians: 'It is one thing to await forgiveness and another thing to arrive in glory; it is one thing to be sent to prison [in carcere] to be let out only when the last farthing has been paid and another thing to receive immediately the reward...
(cont'd)...of faith and virtue; it is one thing to be relieved and purified of one's sins through a long suffering in fire and another thing to have all of one's faults wiped out by martyrdom; and it is one thing to be hanged by the Lord on Judgment Day and another to be crowned by him at once.'...Jay's refutation of the notion that Cyprian put forth a doctrine akin to that of Purgatory seems to me well founded. According to Jay, what is being discussed in the letter to Antonian is the...
(cont'd)... difference between Christians who did not stand up to persecution (the lapsi and apostates) and the martyrs. It is not a question of 'purgatory' in the hereafter but of penitence here below. The reference to imprisonment has to do not with Purgatory, which in any case did not yet exist, but rather with the penitential discipline of the Church." (The Birth of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], pp. 57-58)
@billinmaryland There are also plenty of early church fathers who mention the saints going to heaven when they die, without a single hint of having to go through purgatory beforehand. For example, Justin Martyr states, "The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment" (Dialogue with Trypho, 5).
There is also the Martyrdom of Polycarp, where the deceased church leader is said to have gone immediately on to paradise: "For, having through patience overcome the unjust governor, and thus acquired the crown of immortality, he [Polycarp] now, with the apostles and all the righteous in heaven, rejoicingly glorifies God" (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 19)
In The Octavius of Minucius Felix, Caecelius issues the following objection to Christians: "Deceived by this error, they promise to themselves, as being good, a blessed and perpetual life after their death; to others, as being unrighteous, eternal punishment." (The Octavius of Minucius Felix, 11)
@Epagonizesthai LeGoff's (or Jay's) interpretation of Cyprian's use of imprisonment is interesting and has some merit but would not apply to someone who repented on their deathbed. Also he does not address what Cyprian might have meant by "hanged by the Lord on Judgement Day". Another translation says "in suspense until the day of judgement". This is a clear reference to the afterlife. With regard to the Church having some elaborate, detailed teaching on purgatory, this is just not the case.
@Epagonizesthai This is all that the Catholic Church officially claims to know about purgatory: 1) it is a process by which the souls of the deceased who have died in the state of grace but who have not yet been perfected are made perfect and this process involves some form of suffering, 2) these souls may be assisted by the intercession of the living (prayers, indulgences, masses, penance) 3) it ends at the Second Coming
@billinmaryland The understanding of purgatory has changed since the doctrine was first formulated. For example, back in medieval times up until just a few centuries ago, it was conceived as having a temporal aspect (eg. wear this scapular and you'll be released in a week, or something along those lines). Today, it is no longer the case, and Benedict XVI mentioned in his book "Eschatology" that it takes no time at all (though I don't have the exact citation on me rightnow).
@Epagonizesthai There's more to it than that but there's only so much I can say on youtube. That, and the fact that I am still studying myself. I trust though that you're a pretty open-minded guy and willing to read what the other side has to say.
@Epagonizesthai I'm a little tardy in my response -3 months. I wonder how long that is in purgatory time. The apocryphal Bull of John XXII containing the Sabbatine Privilege was never declared authentic by the Church. The Church, in a Decree in 1613, permitted the Carmelite Fathers to preach that people may believe that Mary will help Scapular wearers, after death, especially on Saturdays. Benedict wrote about existential time that cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time.
@Epagonizesthai Neither of these conflict with Trent's dogmatic Decree on Purgatory. In light of Trent, Benedict would acknowledge that acts of intercession on earth could be applied to purgatory even though two different modes of time are involved. I read part of the section on purgatory in Institutes. Calvin does quote the Fathers but does not consider the consent of the Fathers to be binding whereas the Catholic Church does.
@Epagonizesthai The consent of the Fathers is not the ordinary rule of faith for the Catholic Church, but it is only employed when there is no decision available from the living magisterium. I applaud my evangelical brothers for their faith and dedication to scripture. But how do we come to agreement on hard issues like purgatory, infant baptism, the real (or symbolic) presence, contraception, abortion, stem-cell research, etc. without a living teaching authority?
@billinmaryland Unfortunately for you, Trent demands that no interpretation be accepted contrary to the "unanimous consent of the fathers." But if Rome can't even demonstrate that its teachings have unanimous consent, how can an authority that fails its own standards be of God?
@E Both Cyprian and Augustine make reference to the fact that martyrs bypass purgatory. Augustine wrote "It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended." Unanimous consent isn't as exacting as it sounds. "We adhere to the consentient definitions...of all, or at least almost all priests and doctors."(St. Vincent of Lerins) It was meant to convey the general idea that the reformers were rejecting beliefs widely held by the Fathers and were introducing novelties.
@billinmaryland You may want to actually read what the reformers wrote. They were very conscious of what the ecfs taught, and quoted them quite a lot (more often that you see in more modern Protestant writings). So to say they merely "rejected" their beliefs to introduce novelties is an overly simplistic account of history.
@Epagonizesthai You can look up John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" for example. He quotes the ecfs (especially Augustine) hundreds of times, showing that he is in line with what they taught. In fact, since we're on purgatory, go look up Book III, chapter 5 of the Institutes, since it is that chapter which specifically addresses that issue.
@billinmaryland Finally, bear this in mind: At the council of Trent, it was claimed that these doctrines come with the "unanimous consent of the fathers". Even if some of the early church fathers did hold to something similar to a purgatory (and there are a few, though the details are vague and nothing like what Rome teaches now), it will not suffice unless you can show that the support for Purgatory is, indeed, "unanimous."
1:01 - "purgatory" is absolutley not the most popular part of his divine comedy trilogy... it is unquestionably "inferno". Many people do not even know there is a second purgatory section or a third heaven section
Is NT speaking on his own behalf, on behalf of the Anglican Church, or something else?
I certainly never bought into Purgatory as a Protestant, but have no idea how Anglicans view it. I certainly already know how Catholics view it...
but this ide that Purgatory is right here and right now makes A LOT of sense...the perfecting of the person across a finite period of history, on the road towards holiness.
The first chapter of Genesis says God made man and woman on the sixth day. The second chapter goes into more detail on those events. They're not separate stories.
I want to just make another comment on the Book of Tobias. We have to keep in mind that oftentimes the Scriptures have allegorical meaning in them. The Book of Tobias is about the soul's journey to union with God, which requires detachment from worldly things. The fish heart here represents the human heart that is attached to the things of this world, which has to be overcome in order to move closer to God.
This is possible--that's why we need a visible, credible AUTHORITY present throughout all ages to guide our interpretation of Scripture. The Catholic Church alone has that authority.
PURGATORY was used for the catholic church to collect money! and lie to its people have you notice how they change their beliefs every couple of years and go by what the popes says! to bad the WORD never changes and always stays the same.
"PURGATORY was used for the catholic church to collect money!"
With respect, sir, prove it.
"have you notice how they change their beliefs every couple of years"
Again, please offer an example.
The truth is, the Church never contradicts Herself on anything She officially teaches. What may change are non-dogmatic issues, hypotheses, methods of interacting with the world, but NEVER the core teachings.
Martin Luther broke with the Catholic Church because of the sale of indulgences. After his study of Romans he came to see that salvation was by grace alone, and the indulgence sale was a money making scheme that had no Scriptural basis.
I believe the RCC is apostate, dogmas, devils, deceived,damned, delivered unto death. 1Tim.4:1-4 Listen to a deceived people and you both fall into a ditch. Flee her fornication with the world, flee her political agenda's, her system of works salvation, mary worship, Idolatry.
No such thing as a Roman Catholic priest in the scriptures only royal priesthood of which EVERY BELIEVER functions in Christ 1 Pet.2:5
There is no purgatory at all. Christ suffered the just for the unjust those in Christ are released from the punishment Christ bore my sin so I could be make free.
@tjg2008 Amen! A study of the New Testament reveals that all Christians are priests. Peter said,"Be you yourselves as living stones, built thereon into a spiritual house,a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5).Thus,all Christians are of that holy priesthood and can offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.There is not a man or group of men on earth who can offer unto God spiritual sacrifices for others.
Read Martyrs Mirror hundreds of thousands of believers-in-Christ murdered by Roman Catholic priests. Ant-iChrist then, Anti-Christ today. The saved are saved from wrath (for their sins) Rom.5:9 1Thes.5:9 no suffering at all for sins after death for the saint of God. (all those in Christ) Honesty, like the mass?? Eating God,"behold the power of popery" superstition and priest craft, pagan's who know not God but in vain for traditions of Men supplant the commandments of God.
Individuals within the Catholic Church have made some major mistakes over the years in the way they treated errants and heretics--i.e. with murder and violence. But this is because human beings are imperfect, not because Holy Mother Church isn't perfect. The Church must (and does) constantly reform Herself. Remember, Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven, but shortly after He said to this same Peter: "Get behind me, Satan!" So it is possible for there to be sinners in the Church without...
...the Church's authenticity being invalidated. I won't get into addressing your accusations of paganism here; you're wrong, but the issue is too complex to tackle in the short space allowed here. I will just say to anyone reading this: if you have questions about the Catholic Faith on these matters, ask a Catholic, not tjg2008 or any other anti-Catholic individual.
the mother church is a whore and accepts all faiths as her own she spreads her legs open to all who pass her by and is rejected of YHWH. Her sins rise to the heaven and will be judged and exposed as the whore of Babylon.
"the [. . .] church [. . .] accepts all faiths as her own."
What the Church does is recognize the common ground we share with those of other faiths. We Catholics acknowledge that all religions have rays of truth in them, even if they lack the fullness of the Truth. We believe in capitalizing on those--without ignoring the demarcations in our beliefs--in order to help bring them to Christ. Our ecumenical spirit is about communing with them and letting the Holy Spirit, Who is the One Who...
...converts the souls and hearts of men, do His work.
Now, let me ask this: If Catholicism is false, then why was it the only form of Christianity from the time of the Apostles up until the time of Luther? (with the exception of the Eastern Schism, which is another story) How do you justify the belief that Luther and the Reformers just magically discovered the "real" interpretation of the Bible after 1500 years? Especially when the Church you condemn defended the Bible--sometimes with blood
...(meaning Catholic people being martyrs for the Bible)--throughout the centuries. I urge you to consider your beliefs more carefully, my dear brother. The fact of the matter is that Scripture is only properly interpreted within the context of Tradition, which the Church has upheld, with the Magisterium, for two millennia.
okay so wat about the thief on the cross wen he told jesus to remember him in heaven and jesus told him today u will be with me in paradice not purgatory. and in order to go to purgatory jesus spirit could not have been able to come into us because the spirit comes after jesus goes to heaven. so how was the theif with him in paradice if u go to purgatory after u die.
wat are u trying to say. look u never hear of an after death experience were some one went to purgatory. it was never mentioned once in the holy bible. the hypropha books were not inspired by god. how do i know? well in one of hte books it says to use magic to scare off the devil. that is not of god. one other thing is once some dies they are judge and go to either heaven or hell, not an inbetween place like purgatory, which god tells us there is no inbetween.
For the last time, Purgatory is not an "in-between" place! It is basically part of Heaven, and like someone wiping off his/her feet when going into someone's house! How long you wipe and how hard you have to wipe depends on how much dirt you have on your shoes; likewise, how long you're in Purgatory and how hard it is depends on how much still hasn't been cleared up. But Purgatory is a transitory state that brings us into Heaven and not the middle-ground you keep saying it is.
and for the last time there is only one way to get to heaven, and thats to be saved. like Jesus said there is only one way to get to heaven and thats through him, and we know Jesus was God and Jesus does not lie so if there is only one way to get to heaven and thats through jesus then no one in the oldtestment who went to heaven unless they knew jesus some how. maybe some one had a prophecy of jesus, oh wait they did in Isaiah. thats y there is no purgatory or any waiting place.
"there is only one way to get to heaven, and thats to be saved. like Jesus said there is only one way to get to heaven and thats through him"
I agree with you--what does that have to do with anything? Catholicism has never taught that Purgatory is an alternative means of salvation. As I said before, what Jesus saves us from is our sin and resultant eternal damnation; once we have been saved, we need a final cleansing. Hence, Purgatory!
As for Tobit 6:5-7, physicians at that time believed that a fish's organs had certain healing properties...this is from a NATURAL viewpoint, NOT a supernatural one. Also, the book of Tobit has definite elements of Wisdom literature and is meant to convey overall spiritual lessons, one of which is the intercession of God's angels in our lives against evils. It might be that the angel telling him to use the healing properties of the fish could be understood as referencing the providence of God...
um no an angel comes to these guys and tells them to use smoke to scare off a demon. hmmm, isnt that wat native americans do in there little traditons and would u consider that magic, but wen it controndics wat u say then its okay right. and r u serious wat does jesus have to do with it. so answer this r we going to purgatory wen we die. no we wont and god would not bend the rules for any one. the whole reason for jesus dieing was so every one could go to heaven, if he didnt die no one would.
"the whole reason for jesus dieing was so every one could go to heaven, if he didnt die no one would"
Again, I agree. I feel like I've said this so many times. Yes, Christ saves us, but answer me this: Are you seriously going to tell me that since you came to faith in Christ, you've never had even one impure thought? Never done anything wrong at all--even a very small thing? You haven't struggled with any internal sinful inclinations? Christ helps us with the Grace He offers to endure...
...temptations and abstain from sin, but still no matter how hard we try on this side of life none of us are perfect. There's residue of Original Sin still there. And until that is completely and totally gone, we cannot enter Heaven. Purgatory is not, therefore, someting that "bends the rules"; if you are in Christ, you suffer, and in association with His sufferings you become redeemed. I think of (and I'm not an authority in the Church) Purgatory as that final culmination for the individual.
dont get me wrong im not perfect, and yes i have had impure thoughts i have made mistakes in my life, so now u answer this does christ forgive us of our sins, wouldnt that be considered cleansing, now that i think of it werent u the one who said before we go to heaven we have to be cleaned u know wipe our feet at the door step. so us asking for forgiveness from god would be our cleasnig.
Hey, likewise! You're right, too many people shy away from talking about these things because it is an uncomfortable subject--and actually, I used to be one of them! I'm still a little shy discussing these things vocally, and am much better at talking about it by writing.
As for forgiveness of sins, yes Christ does forgive our sins when we repent and turn to Him. However, asking Him to forgive us is only the beginning. It does take effort on our part to show Him that we want to belong to Him...
It's kind of like if there was a guy who spent years as a drunken derelict, but has a changed of heart and begs society for forgiveness. Society can forgive him and accept him back, but that's only the beginning. He may have to go through rehab, has to get his affairs back in order, must get himself cleaned up ("cleansed" if you will), must work in and live in society in such a way that he can regain people's trust, etc. Ultimately, he will be a regular member of society like everyone else.
to get forgiveness you ask God to forgive you and repent, and u are forgiven. there is nothing else to it. God doesnt need help to clean us, thats y there is no need for purgatory.
But because we have free will, He does require our consent to be cleaned. That cleaning just takes a little longer than we might like, just like with the bum in the analogy I offered isn't automatically a fully-functioning member of society just because he has said "I'm sorry." That's only the starting point.
its not like we can trick God he knows our hearts, so when we give our life to him thats giving him, thats giving him our consent. when we asked to be forgiven thats our consent, when we change our life around and dedicate the rest of it to him, thats our consent. again God doesnt need to put us in purgatory to clean us. when we get baptized by the holy spirit thats pur cleansing. its not a special place where we go.
I have to remind you that your view of "cleansing" is in conflict with what Christian tradition has taught since the very earliest days, and also with a number of Scriptural passages that make plain the reality of temporal punishment for sin.
I didn't say they were against Christ being the One Who forgives sins; the Scriptures of which I speak point to temporal punishment for sin. Example: Moses was forgiven for doubting God, but as punishment he was not permitted to enter the land God had promised the Israelites. David was cleansed of his sin, but was also punished with the loss of his child. Even going back to Adam and Eve, who were spared immediate death and damnation but became subject to toil, pain, etc.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Purgatory! Bear in mind that because our sins offend the infinite Creator, they produce harmful effects on creation that go beyond us in ways we don't know about. Therefore, when Christ has cleansed us of our PERSONAL sinfulness, we must then make amends for the harm we have done. As the effects of our sins can be remarkably extensive, this could take a while and a lot of effort. If we haven't finished that off before death, then we need Purgatory in order to do so.
Ok now we're getting int Biblical interpretation. As Catholics, we do not insist that everything in Genesis be taken literally. The creation narrative is TOPICAL rather than literal (in terms of God being the One who created the stars, the earth, the animals, people, the sea, etc). This is not necessarily to be taken as a literal designation of the amount of time it took to create the universe. Remember that, after all, "time" is much different for God.
whose to say its not to be taken literally. god said he did it so he did it. and how is time different to god. is it onger shorter? how do you know? if it was different to god wouldnt he say so.
You have to consider the different TYPES of literature of which the Bible is composed. Genesis is not meant to be understood on a 100% strict, literal level...the truth that God created the world, and of His relationship with man, and the fall of man into sin, are the main points of the creation narratives. It is not concerned with the mechanics of how creation came to be, but rather with the central truths and meaning inherent in the fact of creation, and man's place in it (esp. in rel. to God)
Here is a link to Papal statements about evolution, which should give you at least some idea of the general Catholic way of understanding Genesis (remember to delete the spaces in the URL when you copy/paste, or it won't work):
h t t p : / / e n . w i k i p e d i a . o r g / w i k i / E v o l u t i o n _ a n d _ c a t h o l i c _ c h u r c h
Well, the end of the first chapter of Genesis says that God created men and women both at the same time; the second chapter says He created Adam first, then created Eve out of 1 of his ribs. Obviously, both can't be literally true. Those who wrote the Bible (communicating God's word through human language) understood that there was sometimes nuance, hyperbole, and other non-literal elements in Scripture; the problem with a lot of Protestantism is that it imposes modern thinking--which is...
...over-literalistic in a lot of instances and has little tolerance for nuance, etc. One can communicate truth without using only literal facts. For example, let's say I tell you that I get up when the sun rises. Is that literally true? No, because the sun doesn't move around the earth--it's the other way around! But we still use language like this because it is phenomenological (i.e., this is our experience of things). So what I say is still true. I'm simply communicating I get up real early.
There is a difference between being true and being absolutely strictly literal on every level of detail. The truth: our first parents (Adam and Eve) sinned against God and brought the consequences upon us all; whether there was actually a talking snake, or whether their sin was literally eating fruit from a tree is secondary.
I don't know where this idea of the final cleansing comes from. ! Corinthians 3:3-15 says nothing substantial enough to build a doctrine around. Romans 8:1 says that "there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Every biblical account of justification makes it clear that in the eyes of God the believer already is totally cleansed because Jesus' death works into the future. The need for a final cleansing undermines the fullness and completeness of His death and is an...
h t t p : / / w w w . v a t i c a n . v a / a r c h i v e / E N G 0 8 3 9 / _ _ P Y W . H T M # $ 4 7 J
(delete spaces)
Click on the "1" that footnotes the verse you've quoted. This explains it well. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that there is no final cleansing (either in this life or after death); it simply means the power of sin and death are broken for believers.
@1r1shCath0l1c Wrong. He was your first pope. He was the first to proclaim himself "pontius maximus", a title STILL used today by the popes! He mixed Christianity with paganism and created catholicism with the help of satan.
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How do I know that God wrote the bible?
raywingfield 2 months ago
Love never fails. God will never fail. If He truly loves people, He wouldn't torture them for all of eternity. Love & eternal torment cannot go together. God is just, yes, but He is not cruel.
1 Tim 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 John 2:2- He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 2 months ago
its great to see the different churches invent nonsense explanations for things said in the far past which had no sense and were used only to calm people :)
please stop inventing and admit crap when its reall CRAP!
eliasjabbour31337 3 months ago
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Try reading the Epic of Gilgamesh & E.A.Wallis Budge translation of, 'The Papyrus of Ani' (1500BCE comp O.T.800-300BCE ish), other great writings are by Donald A. Mackenzie,' Egyptian myth and legend', James G Frazer, 'The Golden Bough', For sceptical Bible scholars try Robert M Price, Valerie Tarico, Dan Barker, John W. Loftus, Bart Ehrman, Gary Greenberg book '101 myths of the Bible', Richard Carrier, David Mills, Ken Humphreys, archaeologist Israel Finkelstein
zytigon 4 months ago
Very interesting thoughts. It's great when people can discuss difficult topics like this...
whatthehellbook . com
alyssafaithbaer 5 months ago
Purgatory is a lie. When Jesus was on the cross said that it is finished. So He done it all for those who believe in Him only. By His grace we are saved. Purgatory was invented. Or you're with God or you're with Satan. There's no middle way. The way, the truth and the life are only Jesus. Through Him we can go in the Kingdom of God....no one else no matter how much you're rich so that you can leave to the Roman Church to pray for you. They will benefit, not you.
PhyllisienneBrincat 5 months ago 5
@PhyllisienneBrincat You like David Jeremiah and John Piper misunderstand and misrepresent what Catholics believe about purgatory. Purgatory is only for people who are saved by the shedding of Blood of Jesus Christ. No one in Purgatory is lost and will go to hell. It is not a "middle ground" where people are given a "second chance." So many who run down the Catholic church dont know what it teaches.
prairiemark 3 weeks ago
You guys who don't agree about Christians having a 'struggle' - have you never read what Paul says about his struggle in Romans 7? No - we can never win that struggle by our own efforts, but it is still a struggle. I think N T Wright talks a lot of sense
iainmgibb 6 months ago
a mixed mesage. purgatory is fiction, but to reduce life to purgatory and make holiness a matter of struggle is legalism, protestant purgatory, as it were.
moving closer to entering the sabbath rest of the believer i reject his talk about struggling to be holy. I am not holy and never will be by my efforts or struggle, but by God's grace administered in His gentleness by His Spirit there is rest and no struggle, and holiness comes that way.
if he wants life long purgatory let him have it
Strefanasha 6 months ago
"it is death itself that finishes off that which needs to be finished off" This sound quite Eastern Orthodox. The more I listen to NT Wright, the more I find him in line with Eastern Orthodox thought. Good stuff
greglee20 6 months ago
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I DON'T IN A PURGATORY, BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH PURGATORY. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT DERIVED FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
DESTINEEE777 7 months ago
NT Wright is such a homie.
ReaderDan 7 months ago
Ok, execpt "the stuggle to become holy" thing, i agree with everything else.
savedbyblood19 7 months ago
Dude, nicely put lol Pugatory is a metaphor for life on earth, if we are in Christ. Since this is sort of a waiting period for us who are in Christ, thats actually pretty cool thinking. Now, I dont believe in purgatory in the catholic sense, but I like were he was going with that.
savedbyblood19 7 months ago
Guess, in the catholic sense, he doesn't believe in purgatory.But nicely put on how the struggle we have in following Christ here is the suffering and temptation we face which ends at death.Guess it is also with how we are justified by Christ, but then become sanctified as we live.then at death we a glorified.
1brandwag 8 months ago
Purgatory as a metaphor for the Christian life? I don't think so! True faith is a 'quitting' of self-effort and struggle to 'become holy'. If there's any struggle involved in the Christian life, it is merelythe mind's reluctance to 'let go' and receive the Good News of Christ in us the hope of glory.
WotchDis 9 months ago
why should i be a christian? i'm not looking for an argument, just a good answer.
thepickletrain 1 year ago
@thepickletrain because being a christians means that you follow and connect with Jesus Christ. That also means that you will have a relationship with the one who is Lord, and you will live with the true love - for eternity. Not a bad thing at all..
Espdrums 1 year ago
@Espdrums live with true love for eternity. that sounds good. why do i want to follow or connect with jesus? why should i care to meet god?
thepickletrain 1 year ago
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@thepickletrain God says there is a heaven and hell. Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, go to heaven, those that reject Him go to hell. It is as simple as that. It is not about a religion, or a system or do's and don'ts. Jesus NEVER preached a religion.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
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curiosity344 1 year ago
@curiosity344 Please provide Biblical support for all this. Where in Matthew 3?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
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curiosity344 1 year ago
@curiosity344 This does not prove the baptism of blood ( a catholic invention ), the baptism by desire ( a catholic invention ).
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
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curiosity344 1 year ago
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curiosity344 1 year ago
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curiosity344 1 year ago
To say that purgatory is a necessary purification is to deny that the grace of God is sufficient. 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
There is nothing in the bible that says you need to be baptized to go to heaven. Baptism is a symbol. I am a Christian but not catholic, so I find some of the doctrine of the catholic church to be wrong.
flarezone 1 year ago
@flarezone You are right, my friend. Nowhere in the Word of God does God says that baptism saves you. As a Christian, you will find most, if not all of the teachings and doctrines of the roman catholic organisation to be unbiblical and anti-Christian, such as purgatory, popes, priests, ever-virgin mary, assumption of mary, confession to priests, indulgances, forbidding meats on friday, nuns, extreme unction, statue making, idolatry, etc.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 1 peter 3.21-22
rcliftonbailey 1 year ago
@rcliftonbailey Is this water baptism or spirit baptism? The thief on the cross was saved, but never went near water baptism.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 Do you have anything from the bible that discusses something other than water baptism? The thief on the cross was under the old covenant, as jesus was not yet resurrected to implement a new covenant.
rcliftonbailey 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 thief on the cross is under old covenant. see romans 3
rcliftonbailey 3 months ago
Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
I can tell people didn't listen to this video AT ALL. Wright was explicitly clear in his rejection of purgatory, (without using the word rejection...this is called wisdom, particularly when you want to win souls) however he acknowledged that it does present a compelling parallel to the sanctification process to which I agree.
ThinktheFaith 1 year ago
Purgatory? NT Wright ... seriously? Purgatory? Ugh. More Roman Catholic nonsense.
FAITHandLOGIC 1 year ago
@FAITHandLOGIC Did you even listen to the video? He basically rejects the concept.
Hrugnir 1 year ago 6
I believe in "outer darkness'" as outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. Most Christians will lose the reward and go to outer darkness. It's like a brightly lit house, an you stand afar off not allowed in because you were a carnal Christian. You will have to wait till the 1000 years is finished to be rejoined with the overcomer believers and Jesus when we go into the New City.
Parture 1 year ago
False Prophet!!
mikeeboy1000 1 year ago
Dante's purgatory is the most popular of the trilogy!!!!!
FOOL! Dante's Inferno is CLEARLY the most popular.
AND - the Vatican issued a statement relinquishing that purgatory is real.
jenglis9 1 year ago
@jenglis9 This man does not belong to the Catholic Church... He belongs to the Church of England.
JEMacProductions 1 year ago
@JEMacProductions which is a subsidiary of the catholic church
jenglis9 1 year ago
@jenglis9 Where can i find that statement, please?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
There is no pergatory, thats in the movies.
veeseee128 1 year ago
we are being lied to our human d&a as been manipulated 30,000 years ago and the churches & politicains do'nt want us to know wake up you morons in investigate this please before it's too late
joanmary11 1 year ago
sooooo purgatory is happyness ???
fatkiller1000 1 year ago
Purgatory is not in the Bible and is not spoken of by God or Jesus. It is a heretical fabrication by which some pope said that what you do on earth affects the afterlife. In fact Jesus is very clear: The only way to heaven is to worship and love God with all your heart mind and spirit. That is all that matters: not any earthly deed.
Chizzy941 1 year ago
@Chizzy941
but it's in Judaism afterlife
CloudsofBliss 1 year ago
@CloudsofBliss my father used to be a Jew (before he converted) and due to his doctorate in theology I think that he is more correct than you are in saying, it chuffing well isn't it was invented post Jesus' cruxifiction by a pope who's name escapes me.
Chizzy941 1 year ago
@Chizzy941
but your father isn't a expert one his theology nor teacher. Jews don't believe in eternal hell but a termporay punishment. Also,they believe in purgatory.
Its either your father aren't hardcore or he isn't serious on his religion.
The Protestant christianty ruined the bible by misconceptions and mistranslation of the bible.
CloudsofBliss 1 year ago
@CloudsofBliss There is not a Jewish purgatory!!!!! Only select few parts of Judaism actually believe in an afterlife. By mistranslation to you mean English? If so i see that if u r still reading in Latin that you care not for the communtiy and for their souls : do they speak Latin? Can they read latin? I think the answer is no. Therefore how can you call yourselves Christian, if you will not even try to love your neighbour?!?
Chizzy941 1 year ago
@Chizzy941
First off, yes it is. There's many things that many people believe that is no afterlife of the Jews, but there is. There is a purgatory. I reasearch about the Jewish afterlife. I like I said, your father isn't the expect or a proffessor, so why I believe in him. He is your father.
CloudsofBliss 1 year ago
@Chizzy941
Second, I'm not just talking about English lanuage. Have you know the translations during the Reformation? Have you know about the Reformation? The doctrines and the theologians from many leaders are just translations or misconceptions about the teachings of Jesus and Paul. That's why we have many scholars today are now putting new perspective about Jesus and Paul that our early Christian leaders were right all along. Research about the New Perspective of Paul.
CloudsofBliss 1 year ago
Is it where the dead descend to where they no longer remember themselves no longer remember God and not able to register the passage of time??!
What's that place called? Purgatory of the world of the dead?! The dead still descend to that place . . .instead of being judged and sent to heaven or hell
Anyway the bible doesn't teach immediate judgment? The earliest resurrection according to the bible is at Christ second coming!
MichaelWithstand 1 year ago
Purgatory is childish nonsense.
lizazoon 1 year ago
I believe I am in purgatory right now
GuinessPotato 2 years ago
The word, "rapture" does not appear in the biblical text, that's true. But the actual event is described using word pictures in many of the following bible verses. Anyonhe with the IQ of an ant can't fit the puzzles pieces together. See for yourself, the rapture is described in the following verses: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, and in Daniel 12:2,3.
Quantum828 2 years ago
Good clip
7Franky7 2 years ago
Can anyone please tell me where the bible talks about Purgatory?
emandriy88 2 years ago
no bible verse i know of, must come from the imagination of the mind of flesh. In vain do they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
tjg2008 2 years ago
no bible verse refers to "the rapture" either.
baredd79 2 years ago
good point, then we should find our understanding from what is written. I've never mentioned rapture the bible teaches the resurrection as in 1 Cor.15:51-57 and 1Thes.4:13-18
tjg2008 2 years ago
@baredd79 Wrong, my friend. Either you are a liar, or ignorant. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not referring to a secret "rapture". It's referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus, when we're all caught up to heaven for final judgment at the sound of the trumpet. The rapture is 18th century fantasy. And please don't call me your friend while suggesting me as a lier in the same sentence.
baredd79 1 year ago
google it
jdhthec 2 years ago
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 says "If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." This seems to be a metaphor for purgatory.
billinmaryland 2 years ago
Take a closer look at the context of that passage. It talks about being in the ministry and building upon a foundation. It also speaks about the fire coming on the day of judgment. If you took that passage in its entire context as referring to purgatory, you'd have to say that only ministers go there and that they only go there at judgment day. To say otherwise would be to simply be inconsistent.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
Valid point. Augustine allows for the broader interpretation of the passage in City of God, Bk. 21, where he suggests that the fire can refer to both earthly suffering or suffering between death and the general judgement, "..a fire..shall affect those others who have carried with them (wood, hay, stubble) ..if it be said that such worldliness, being venial shall be consumed in the fire of tribulation...here and hereafter both, or here that it might not be hereafter -this I do not contradict.."
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@billinmaryland The same Augustine also said in another one of his treatises (The Enchiridion, 69), that although he concedes the possibility of there being a purgatorial fire (being one of the first to do so in history, in fact), he states that this is doubtful and should not be imposed as a doctrine upon anybody.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@billinmaryland "And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it." (Enchiridion, 69)
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai This little debate is forcing me to learn. Cheaper than a theology course. Augustine goes on in Enchiridion 110 to talk about praying for the dead in more certain terms. It's hard to speculate on a reason for the change in tone from parts 69 to 110. Earlier Fathers Origen, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Clement of Alexandria did write about purgatory.
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@billinmaryland Umm actually, no they didn't. Clement and Origen believed in a temporal hell, which would eventually be emptied of everybody in it. Tertullian believed in a sort of "refrigerium." I'm not sure about Cyprian; he may have had some sort of concept of an intermediate state, but it could not have been the medieval doctrine of purgatory.
Look up "The Birth of Purgatory" by historian Jacques Le Goff. It demonstrates that the doctrine only came into being during the middle ages.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@billinmaryland Also do a google search on "An In Channel Debate on Purgatory". You'll find a helpful little article that speaks on the development of this doctrine.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai All four Fathers wrote about a painful process of purification from sin that (some) souls must undergo after death before they may enter heaven. Although Clement and Origen believed in a temporal hell, Clement's discussion of the death of a repentant sinner (Patres Groeci IX) and Origen's exegesis of 1 Cor. 3 (Patres Groeci XIII) both refer to those who did not reject Christ in their earthly lives.
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai Clement wrote "The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment,... ...these punishments cease in the course of expiation of each one,..." Origen wrote "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones but also wood and hay and stubble... It remains that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials..."
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai Tertullian wrote in A Treatise on the Soul, "he commit you to the prison of hell...until the smallest...delinquencies be paid..." Cyprian wrote in Letters 51(55), "it is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire;" There was a good deal of medieval speculation about the details of purgatory to help people visualize it, but the official teachings of the Catholic Church were and still are vague.
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@billinmaryland Do you really want to equate hell with purgatory? Because if you're going to use that Tertullian quote, then that's what you'd be forced to conclude. Also, the Cyprian quote is too short and ambiguous to support a dogma that was formulated centuries later. Really, you seem to be grasping at straws at this point.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@billinmaryland From LeGoff's Book: "Some writers have credited Cyprian with making an important doctrinal contribution to Purgatory as early as the mid-third century. In his Letter to Antonian [Letter 51:20] Cyprian distinguishes between two kinds of Christians: 'It is one thing to await forgiveness and another thing to arrive in glory; it is one thing to be sent to prison [in carcere] to be let out only when the last farthing has been paid and another thing to receive immediately the reward...
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
(cont'd)...of faith and virtue; it is one thing to be relieved and purified of one's sins through a long suffering in fire and another thing to have all of one's faults wiped out by martyrdom; and it is one thing to be hanged by the Lord on Judgment Day and another to be crowned by him at once.'...Jay's refutation of the notion that Cyprian put forth a doctrine akin to that of Purgatory seems to me well founded. According to Jay, what is being discussed in the letter to Antonian is the...
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
(cont'd)... difference between Christians who did not stand up to persecution (the lapsi and apostates) and the martyrs. It is not a question of 'purgatory' in the hereafter but of penitence here below. The reference to imprisonment has to do not with Purgatory, which in any case did not yet exist, but rather with the penitential discipline of the Church." (The Birth of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], pp. 57-58)
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@billinmaryland There are also plenty of early church fathers who mention the saints going to heaven when they die, without a single hint of having to go through purgatory beforehand. For example, Justin Martyr states, "The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment" (Dialogue with Trypho, 5).
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
There is also the Martyrdom of Polycarp, where the deceased church leader is said to have gone immediately on to paradise: "For, having through patience overcome the unjust governor, and thus acquired the crown of immortality, he [Polycarp] now, with the apostles and all the righteous in heaven, rejoicingly glorifies God" (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 19)
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
In The Octavius of Minucius Felix, Caecelius issues the following objection to Christians: "Deceived by this error, they promise to themselves, as being good, a blessed and perpetual life after their death; to others, as being unrighteous, eternal punishment." (The Octavius of Minucius Felix, 11)
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai LeGoff's (or Jay's) interpretation of Cyprian's use of imprisonment is interesting and has some merit but would not apply to someone who repented on their deathbed. Also he does not address what Cyprian might have meant by "hanged by the Lord on Judgement Day". Another translation says "in suspense until the day of judgement". This is a clear reference to the afterlife. With regard to the Church having some elaborate, detailed teaching on purgatory, this is just not the case.
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai This is all that the Catholic Church officially claims to know about purgatory: 1) it is a process by which the souls of the deceased who have died in the state of grace but who have not yet been perfected are made perfect and this process involves some form of suffering, 2) these souls may be assisted by the intercession of the living (prayers, indulgences, masses, penance) 3) it ends at the Second Coming
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@billinmaryland The understanding of purgatory has changed since the doctrine was first formulated. For example, back in medieval times up until just a few centuries ago, it was conceived as having a temporal aspect (eg. wear this scapular and you'll be released in a week, or something along those lines). Today, it is no longer the case, and Benedict XVI mentioned in his book "Eschatology" that it takes no time at all (though I don't have the exact citation on me rightnow).
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
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Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai There's more to it than that but there's only so much I can say on youtube. That, and the fact that I am still studying myself. I trust though that you're a pretty open-minded guy and willing to read what the other side has to say.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai I'm a little tardy in my response -3 months. I wonder how long that is in purgatory time. The apocryphal Bull of John XXII containing the Sabbatine Privilege was never declared authentic by the Church. The Church, in a Decree in 1613, permitted the Carmelite Fathers to preach that people may believe that Mary will help Scapular wearers, after death, especially on Saturdays. Benedict wrote about existential time that cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time.
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai Neither of these conflict with Trent's dogmatic Decree on Purgatory. In light of Trent, Benedict would acknowledge that acts of intercession on earth could be applied to purgatory even though two different modes of time are involved. I read part of the section on purgatory in Institutes. Calvin does quote the Fathers but does not consider the consent of the Fathers to be binding whereas the Catholic Church does.
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai The consent of the Fathers is not the ordinary rule of faith for the Catholic Church, but it is only employed when there is no decision available from the living magisterium. I applaud my evangelical brothers for their faith and dedication to scripture. But how do we come to agreement on hard issues like purgatory, infant baptism, the real (or symbolic) presence, contraception, abortion, stem-cell research, etc. without a living teaching authority?
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@billinmaryland Unfortunately for you, Trent demands that no interpretation be accepted contrary to the "unanimous consent of the fathers." But if Rome can't even demonstrate that its teachings have unanimous consent, how can an authority that fails its own standards be of God?
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@E Both Cyprian and Augustine make reference to the fact that martyrs bypass purgatory. Augustine wrote "It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended." Unanimous consent isn't as exacting as it sounds. "We adhere to the consentient definitions...of all, or at least almost all priests and doctors."(St. Vincent of Lerins) It was meant to convey the general idea that the reformers were rejecting beliefs widely held by the Fathers and were introducing novelties.
billinmaryland 1 year ago
@billinmaryland You may want to actually read what the reformers wrote. They were very conscious of what the ecfs taught, and quoted them quite a lot (more often that you see in more modern Protestant writings). So to say they merely "rejected" their beliefs to introduce novelties is an overly simplistic account of history.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@Epagonizesthai You can look up John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" for example. He quotes the ecfs (especially Augustine) hundreds of times, showing that he is in line with what they taught. In fact, since we're on purgatory, go look up Book III, chapter 5 of the Institutes, since it is that chapter which specifically addresses that issue.
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
@billinmaryland Finally, bear this in mind: At the council of Trent, it was claimed that these doctrines come with the "unanimous consent of the fathers". Even if some of the early church fathers did hold to something similar to a purgatory (and there are a few, though the details are vague and nothing like what Rome teaches now), it will not suffice unless you can show that the support for Purgatory is, indeed, "unanimous."
Epagonizesthai 1 year ago
1:01 - "purgatory" is absolutley not the most popular part of his divine comedy trilogy... it is unquestionably "inferno". Many people do not even know there is a second purgatory section or a third heaven section
jenglis9 2 years ago
Is NT speaking on his own behalf, on behalf of the Anglican Church, or something else?
I certainly never bought into Purgatory as a Protestant, but have no idea how Anglicans view it. I certainly already know how Catholics view it...
but this ide that Purgatory is right here and right now makes A LOT of sense...the perfecting of the person across a finite period of history, on the road towards holiness.
mowriter 2 years ago
The first chapter of Genesis says God made man and woman on the sixth day. The second chapter goes into more detail on those events. They're not separate stories.
OneEyedJack1970 2 years ago
its not saying that he made them both at the same time its just saying that he created male and female.
marymoofat 2 years ago
I want to just make another comment on the Book of Tobias. We have to keep in mind that oftentimes the Scriptures have allegorical meaning in them. The Book of Tobias is about the soul's journey to union with God, which requires detachment from worldly things. The fish heart here represents the human heart that is attached to the things of this world, which has to be overcome in order to move closer to God.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
See also 1 Corinthians 3: 13-15.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
Not enough to build a doctrine on, I could justify slavery, murder and a lot of other ideas with one or two verses.
mlafarge 2 years ago
This is possible--that's why we need a visible, credible AUTHORITY present throughout all ages to guide our interpretation of Scripture. The Catholic Church alone has that authority.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
PURGATORY was used for the catholic church to collect money! and lie to its people have you notice how they change their beliefs every couple of years and go by what the popes says! to bad the WORD never changes and always stays the same.
ibanez33150 2 years ago
"PURGATORY was used for the catholic church to collect money!"
With respect, sir, prove it.
"have you notice how they change their beliefs every couple of years"
Again, please offer an example.
The truth is, the Church never contradicts Herself on anything She officially teaches. What may change are non-dogmatic issues, hypotheses, methods of interacting with the world, but NEVER the core teachings.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
Martin Luther broke with the Catholic Church because of the sale of indulgences. After his study of Romans he came to see that salvation was by grace alone, and the indulgence sale was a money making scheme that had no Scriptural basis.
mlafarge 2 years ago
I believe the RCC is apostate, dogmas, devils, deceived,damned, delivered unto death. 1Tim.4:1-4 Listen to a deceived people and you both fall into a ditch. Flee her fornication with the world, flee her political agenda's, her system of works salvation, mary worship, Idolatry.
tjg2008 2 years ago
Also, what exactly do you mean by "we knew Christ would die for our sins way before He ever did"?
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
No such thing as a Roman Catholic priest in the scriptures only royal priesthood of which EVERY BELIEVER functions in Christ 1 Pet.2:5
There is no purgatory at all. Christ suffered the just for the unjust those in Christ are released from the punishment Christ bore my sin so I could be make free.
tjg2008 2 years ago
@tjg2008 Amen! A study of the New Testament reveals that all Christians are priests. Peter said,"Be you yourselves as living stones, built thereon into a spiritual house,a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5).Thus,all Christians are of that holy priesthood and can offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.There is not a man or group of men on earth who can offer unto God spiritual sacrifices for others.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
Read Martyrs Mirror hundreds of thousands of believers-in-Christ murdered by Roman Catholic priests. Ant-iChrist then, Anti-Christ today. The saved are saved from wrath (for their sins) Rom.5:9 1Thes.5:9 no suffering at all for sins after death for the saint of God. (all those in Christ) Honesty, like the mass?? Eating God,"behold the power of popery" superstition and priest craft, pagan's who know not God but in vain for traditions of Men supplant the commandments of God.
tjg2008 2 years ago
Individuals within the Catholic Church have made some major mistakes over the years in the way they treated errants and heretics--i.e. with murder and violence. But this is because human beings are imperfect, not because Holy Mother Church isn't perfect. The Church must (and does) constantly reform Herself. Remember, Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven, but shortly after He said to this same Peter: "Get behind me, Satan!" So it is possible for there to be sinners in the Church without...
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
...the Church's authenticity being invalidated. I won't get into addressing your accusations of paganism here; you're wrong, but the issue is too complex to tackle in the short space allowed here. I will just say to anyone reading this: if you have questions about the Catholic Faith on these matters, ask a Catholic, not tjg2008 or any other anti-Catholic individual.
God Bless
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
standing up for Jesus any takers?
tjg2008 2 years ago
the mother church is a whore and accepts all faiths as her own she spreads her legs open to all who pass her by and is rejected of YHWH. Her sins rise to the heaven and will be judged and exposed as the whore of Babylon.
tjg2008 2 years ago
"the [. . .] church [. . .] accepts all faiths as her own."
What the Church does is recognize the common ground we share with those of other faiths. We Catholics acknowledge that all religions have rays of truth in them, even if they lack the fullness of the Truth. We believe in capitalizing on those--without ignoring the demarcations in our beliefs--in order to help bring them to Christ. Our ecumenical spirit is about communing with them and letting the Holy Spirit, Who is the One Who...
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
...converts the souls and hearts of men, do His work.
Now, let me ask this: If Catholicism is false, then why was it the only form of Christianity from the time of the Apostles up until the time of Luther? (with the exception of the Eastern Schism, which is another story) How do you justify the belief that Luther and the Reformers just magically discovered the "real" interpretation of the Bible after 1500 years? Especially when the Church you condemn defended the Bible--sometimes with blood
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
...(meaning Catholic people being martyrs for the Bible)--throughout the centuries. I urge you to consider your beliefs more carefully, my dear brother. The fact of the matter is that Scripture is only properly interpreted within the context of Tradition, which the Church has upheld, with the Magisterium, for two millennia.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
okay so wat about the thief on the cross wen he told jesus to remember him in heaven and jesus told him today u will be with me in paradice not purgatory. and in order to go to purgatory jesus spirit could not have been able to come into us because the spirit comes after jesus goes to heaven. so how was the theif with him in paradice if u go to purgatory after u die.
marymoofat 2 years ago
well said marymoofat I tolled that to another stupid catholic and they were speechless! thank God that theirs smart ppl like you still!
ibanez33150 2 years ago
In the future, please remember to capitalize the name of the Son of God. As for the substance of your argument, consider the following points:
1. 'Today you will be with me in paradise' means the thief is going to be in
Heaven "today", but there is no assurance of the same experience of time in
Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. We don't know if purgatory "takes time" as it
were - it may just appear to do so.
ii) Jesus can do whatever He likes.
(#3 in the next post...)
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
iii) Physical suffering in this world can mitigate the time spent in
purgatory.
As for what you are saying about Jesus' spirit descending, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you sure you have a good grip on your theology?
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
wat are u trying to say. look u never hear of an after death experience were some one went to purgatory. it was never mentioned once in the holy bible. the hypropha books were not inspired by god. how do i know? well in one of hte books it says to use magic to scare off the devil. that is not of god. one other thing is once some dies they are judge and go to either heaven or hell, not an inbetween place like purgatory, which god tells us there is no inbetween.
marymoofat 2 years ago
For the last time, Purgatory is not an "in-between" place! It is basically part of Heaven, and like someone wiping off his/her feet when going into someone's house! How long you wipe and how hard you have to wipe depends on how much dirt you have on your shoes; likewise, how long you're in Purgatory and how hard it is depends on how much still hasn't been cleared up. But Purgatory is a transitory state that brings us into Heaven and not the middle-ground you keep saying it is.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
and for the last time there is only one way to get to heaven, and thats to be saved. like Jesus said there is only one way to get to heaven and thats through him, and we know Jesus was God and Jesus does not lie so if there is only one way to get to heaven and thats through jesus then no one in the oldtestment who went to heaven unless they knew jesus some how. maybe some one had a prophecy of jesus, oh wait they did in Isaiah. thats y there is no purgatory or any waiting place.
marymoofat 2 years ago
...So those who are in Purgatory are, in fact, those souls you mention who are judged worthy of Heaven and not hell.
"well in one of hte [apocryphal] books it says to use magic to scare off the devil"
Which verse are you talking about exactly?
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
and the part in the apocrpha book that talked about majic was tobit 6:5-7.
marymoofat 2 years ago
"there is only one way to get to heaven, and thats to be saved. like Jesus said there is only one way to get to heaven and thats through him"
I agree with you--what does that have to do with anything? Catholicism has never taught that Purgatory is an alternative means of salvation. As I said before, what Jesus saves us from is our sin and resultant eternal damnation; once we have been saved, we need a final cleansing. Hence, Purgatory!
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
As for Tobit 6:5-7, physicians at that time believed that a fish's organs had certain healing properties...this is from a NATURAL viewpoint, NOT a supernatural one. Also, the book of Tobit has definite elements of Wisdom literature and is meant to convey overall spiritual lessons, one of which is the intercession of God's angels in our lives against evils. It might be that the angel telling him to use the healing properties of the fish could be understood as referencing the providence of God...
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
...in and through creation. In any case, I don't think you can argue that these verses condone the practice of witchcraft or sorcery.
Be at peace.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
and jesus dieing was our cleaning, hence washed our sin away.
marymoofat 2 years ago
@1r1shCath0l1c How about the vatican saying harry potter is ok?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
um no an angel comes to these guys and tells them to use smoke to scare off a demon. hmmm, isnt that wat native americans do in there little traditons and would u consider that magic, but wen it controndics wat u say then its okay right. and r u serious wat does jesus have to do with it. so answer this r we going to purgatory wen we die. no we wont and god would not bend the rules for any one. the whole reason for jesus dieing was so every one could go to heaven, if he didnt die no one would.
marymoofat 2 years ago
"the whole reason for jesus dieing was so every one could go to heaven, if he didnt die no one would"
Again, I agree. I feel like I've said this so many times. Yes, Christ saves us, but answer me this: Are you seriously going to tell me that since you came to faith in Christ, you've never had even one impure thought? Never done anything wrong at all--even a very small thing? You haven't struggled with any internal sinful inclinations? Christ helps us with the Grace He offers to endure...
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
...temptations and abstain from sin, but still no matter how hard we try on this side of life none of us are perfect. There's residue of Original Sin still there. And until that is completely and totally gone, we cannot enter Heaven. Purgatory is not, therefore, someting that "bends the rules"; if you are in Christ, you suffer, and in association with His sufferings you become redeemed. I think of (and I'm not an authority in the Church) Purgatory as that final culmination for the individual.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
dont get me wrong im not perfect, and yes i have had impure thoughts i have made mistakes in my life, so now u answer this does christ forgive us of our sins, wouldnt that be considered cleansing, now that i think of it werent u the one who said before we go to heaven we have to be cleaned u know wipe our feet at the door step. so us asking for forgiveness from god would be our cleasnig.
marymoofat 2 years ago
by the way, good talk, im glad there are people like u who acually like discussing the bible . people like u are hard to come by.
marymoofat 2 years ago
Hey, likewise! You're right, too many people shy away from talking about these things because it is an uncomfortable subject--and actually, I used to be one of them! I'm still a little shy discussing these things vocally, and am much better at talking about it by writing.
As for forgiveness of sins, yes Christ does forgive our sins when we repent and turn to Him. However, asking Him to forgive us is only the beginning. It does take effort on our part to show Him that we want to belong to Him...
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
It's kind of like if there was a guy who spent years as a drunken derelict, but has a changed of heart and begs society for forgiveness. Society can forgive him and accept him back, but that's only the beginning. He may have to go through rehab, has to get his affairs back in order, must get himself cleaned up ("cleansed" if you will), must work in and live in society in such a way that he can regain people's trust, etc. Ultimately, he will be a regular member of society like everyone else.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
God bless you.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
to get forgiveness you ask God to forgive you and repent, and u are forgiven. there is nothing else to it. God doesnt need help to clean us, thats y there is no need for purgatory.
marymoofat 2 years ago
"God doesnt need help to clean us"
But because we have free will, He does require our consent to be cleaned. That cleaning just takes a little longer than we might like, just like with the bum in the analogy I offered isn't automatically a fully-functioning member of society just because he has said "I'm sorry." That's only the starting point.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
its not like we can trick God he knows our hearts, so when we give our life to him thats giving him, thats giving him our consent. when we asked to be forgiven thats our consent, when we change our life around and dedicate the rest of it to him, thats our consent. again God doesnt need to put us in purgatory to clean us. when we get baptized by the holy spirit thats pur cleansing. its not a special place where we go.
marymoofat 2 years ago
I have to remind you that your view of "cleansing" is in conflict with what Christian tradition has taught since the very earliest days, and also with a number of Scriptural passages that make plain the reality of temporal punishment for sin.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
well thats how you get clean by asking for forgiveness. so would you mind telling me which scripures aare against that.
marymoofat 2 years ago
I didn't say they were against Christ being the One Who forgives sins; the Scriptures of which I speak point to temporal punishment for sin. Example: Moses was forgiven for doubting God, but as punishment he was not permitted to enter the land God had promised the Israelites. David was cleansed of his sin, but was also punished with the loss of his child. Even going back to Adam and Eve, who were spared immediate death and damnation but became subject to toil, pain, etc.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
what does that have to do with purgatory i know people get punished.
marymoofat 2 years ago
It has EVERYTHING to do with Purgatory! Bear in mind that because our sins offend the infinite Creator, they produce harmful effects on creation that go beyond us in ways we don't know about. Therefore, when Christ has cleansed us of our PERSONAL sinfulness, we must then make amends for the harm we have done. As the effects of our sins can be remarkably extensive, this could take a while and a lot of effort. If we haven't finished that off before death, then we need Purgatory in order to do so.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
Until we've finished that, we can't enter Heaven.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
look god created the universe in six days, i dont think it would take a little effort to forgive us of our sins and let us in to heaven.
marymoofat 2 years ago
Ok now we're getting int Biblical interpretation. As Catholics, we do not insist that everything in Genesis be taken literally. The creation narrative is TOPICAL rather than literal (in terms of God being the One who created the stars, the earth, the animals, people, the sea, etc). This is not necessarily to be taken as a literal designation of the amount of time it took to create the universe. Remember that, after all, "time" is much different for God.
God Bless you
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
whose to say its not to be taken literally. god said he did it so he did it. and how is time different to god. is it onger shorter? how do you know? if it was different to god wouldnt he say so.
marymoofat 2 years ago
You have to consider the different TYPES of literature of which the Bible is composed. Genesis is not meant to be understood on a 100% strict, literal level...the truth that God created the world, and of His relationship with man, and the fall of man into sin, are the main points of the creation narratives. It is not concerned with the mechanics of how creation came to be, but rather with the central truths and meaning inherent in the fact of creation, and man's place in it (esp. in rel. to God)
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
Here is a link to Papal statements about evolution, which should give you at least some idea of the general Catholic way of understanding Genesis (remember to delete the spaces in the URL when you copy/paste, or it won't work):
h t t p : / / e n . w i k i p e d i a . o r g / w i k i / E v o l u t i o n _ a n d _ c a t h o l i c _ c h u r c h
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
so how do you know that its not literal.
marymoofat 2 years ago
The Bible is not intended as a book of science, but as a book of salvation.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
so what makes you think its not literal. there is nothing that led me to believe its not literal.
marymoofat 2 years ago
Well, the end of the first chapter of Genesis says that God created men and women both at the same time; the second chapter says He created Adam first, then created Eve out of 1 of his ribs. Obviously, both can't be literally true. Those who wrote the Bible (communicating God's word through human language) understood that there was sometimes nuance, hyperbole, and other non-literal elements in Scripture; the problem with a lot of Protestantism is that it imposes modern thinking--which is...
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
...over-literalistic in a lot of instances and has little tolerance for nuance, etc. One can communicate truth without using only literal facts. For example, let's say I tell you that I get up when the sun rises. Is that literally true? No, because the sun doesn't move around the earth--it's the other way around! But we still use language like this because it is phenomenological (i.e., this is our experience of things). So what I say is still true. I'm simply communicating I get up real early.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
the bible is the truth u clown what do you ? " cant be literally true??????"
ibanez33150 2 years ago
There is a difference between being true and being absolutely strictly literal on every level of detail. The truth: our first parents (Adam and Eve) sinned against God and brought the consequences upon us all; whether there was actually a talking snake, or whether their sin was literally eating fruit from a tree is secondary.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
@1r1shCath0l1c So, God is telling us to use magic?
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
I don't know where this idea of the final cleansing comes from. ! Corinthians 3:3-15 says nothing substantial enough to build a doctrine around. Romans 8:1 says that "there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Every biblical account of justification makes it clear that in the eyes of God the believer already is totally cleansed because Jesus' death works into the future. The need for a final cleansing undermines the fullness and completeness of His death and is an...
mlafarge 2 years ago
h t t p : / / w w w . v a t i c a n . v a / a r c h i v e / E N G 0 8 3 9 / _ _ P Y W . H T M # $ 4 7 J
(delete spaces)
Click on the "1" that footnotes the verse you've quoted. This explains it well. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that there is no final cleansing (either in this life or after death); it simply means the power of sin and death are broken for believers.
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
the RRC has its ties with Constantine the Emperor am not lutheran but thank god sumone saw the light.
ibanez33150 2 years ago
Constantine was a not a pagan emperor who paganized Christianity--he was a pagan emperor who was CONVERTED to Christianity!
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
Yup and went str8 to hell.
ibanez33150 2 years ago
And you know this how?
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago 2
@1r1shCath0l1c Wrong. He was your first pope. He was the first to proclaim himself "pontius maximus", a title STILL used today by the popes! He mixed Christianity with paganism and created catholicism with the help of satan.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago