Addressing the Arguments Against the DNA Evidence - Part 1

[tarzanmorrison]

This guy is more boring than the Book of Mormon.

[onegodlessbitch]

@tarzanmorrison

that's impossible

[UnstoppableDestiny]

Trash

[NKVism1]

I'm a pseudoscientist from a a hackneyed American cult slapped together from bits and scraps of other crypto-yehudisch cults like British Israelism and Freemasonry, AND I'M A MORON, er, MORMON... The Angel Macaronei even said so!

[bountyhunter60]

LOL

[SwiftResurgence88]

Mormons=Shit.

[InfragilisTerminatio]

Hillbilly trash.

[HitlerBuddha]

Mormons = LMFAO

[vonKressenstein]

You cannot use the word "mormon" with "anthopologist" (or scientist) in the same sentance and make any sense!!!

However I always liked their idea of polygamy and if they brought that back (and I was one of teh leaders that could do it) I'd follow Joe Smith!!! (Funny his "revelation" on that only after his wife caught him BOINKING his young hired help - and then it was just reserved for him and his best buddies - GREAT idea!!!)

[CViewpoints]

Been a Mormon all my life. The biggest change in my life - for the better - is when I finally concluded that the Book of Mormon is fiction.

[brettbartel]

Tell me why my hypothesis couldn't explain the data.

Lehi's family arrives in the Western Hemi.

Nephi and Co. leave Laman and Co.

Laman and Co. interbred with an already existing population who originate from Siberia. As a result of such interbreeding their "skin darkens." This would also explain why there are always significantly MORE Lamanites than Nephites. Any nonNephite could be referred to as a Lamanite.

423 AD The Nephites (and all Israelite markers) would be wiped out.

[CounterCultureLives]

@brettbartel sounds like your trying to build the house around the door knob. Besides, what you hypothesize id not in keeping with what BoM states.

[korgho5757]

ive never seen a mormon before bingo how it is ti be a mormon? it the same game rhe amish play? i am confused. amish girls are hot

[LordPillsbury1959]

There are to Claves to Haplogroup X. The clave in Siberia is not found in Clave in Great Lakes Indians who carry Haplogroup X, but from Israel and Europe. This new study of DNA is just at it's beginnings. For those who trust science will find themselves changing with science. Just take the global warming issue. Two sides, only one truth. Both claim to be science. Who is right? BoM is testimony derived from the Spirit. Science will someday support it because the BoM is true!

[DrPorterRockwell]

@LordPillsbury1959

Exactly & well said! Tossed to & fro with every wind of doctrine.

When did an anthropologist become the "expert" in genetics? He didn't even mention subgroup X1 and subgroup X2.

I will stick with my solid testimony that was gained from a spiritual witness, but it is fulfilling to hear people support the DNA connection and who are true experts in genetics like Donald N. Yates PhD.

Only the beginning, but what the Book of Mormon already knows, science is slowly discovering.

[EasternMerchant]

wow this guy looks like a younger version of Simon Cowell!

[themanishere4]

So mtDNA haplogroup X is originally from Iran and this haplogroup X found in a small amounts of indigenous Native Americans is from the Altaian people of north and south Siberia as demonstrated by scientist Miroslav Derenko who should that haplogroup X in the Siberian Altaian (Asians) is ancient and not an alleged recent European "admixture". Also Iranians are Indo-Europeans, white racists are wrong when they claim Iranians are white, Europeans are a later subgroup of the Indo-Europeans.

[themanishere4]

Also scientists have shown that mtDNA haplogroup X originated in Iran, not allegedly in Europe or the Semitic lands. From the US gov ncbi website; "We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade"

[themanishere4]

cont. from scientist Miroslav Derenko; "As shown by computer analysis, this DNA sequence is not a late European admixture. Rather, the Altai variant X is ancient and can be close to the ancestral form of the variants of contemporary Europeans and Amerinds. The mtDNA studies have shown that both northern and southern Altaians exhibit all four Asian and American Indian specific haplogroups Therefore, they may represent the populations which are most closely related to New World indigenous groups."

[themanishere4]

ddbrosnahan is completely wrong. Research by scientist Miroslav Derenko has shown about the Altaians; "Derenko's study asserts that the recent European admixture cannot explain the presence of haplogroup X in the Altaians. Hence, this study allow us to suggest that haplogroup X was the part of the ancestral gene pool for Altaian populations, being found both in northern and southern Altaians.

[ddbrosnahan]

Also, the Book of Mormon itself only says that a "remnant of their seed" would persist into the Last Days. So, the fact that a majority of Native American DNA comes from Asia is entirely consistent with the Book of Mormon.

[Outlaw1257]

The problem with that excuse is that the Amerindian is of Asiatic Mongolian heritage, and they were already dark skinned when they arrived...

..... So much for the "descendants of Laman were "cursed" with dark skin!!

[Outlaw1257]

Were it not for DNA research, LDS would have not been forced to change the wording of The Book of Mormon (AGAIN!!) from the so-called "Lamanites" being

the principal ancestors" of the Amerindian to being "AMONG the ancestors".

[ddbrosnahan]

The trace of Haplogroup X in Altai Republic is not the source of Haplogroup X in America. Studies show that the mtDNA Haplogroup X in American comes from Northern Israel directly,

[Outlaw1257]

And at what flea market did you study anthropology, ddbrosnahan??

[ddbrosnahan]

You claim that Haplogroup X is too early to vindicate the Book of Mormon which means that you are of the opinion that scientific dating based on isotope decay is accurate. From ice core date we know the level of cosmic rays hitting the earth which causes both dna mutation and which generates isotopes is not constant. Also researchers at MIT have calculated the mitochondial Eve or the first common mtDNA ancestor could have lived only a few thousand years ago and not the 10-25k years you site.

[sneedledout]

just face it dude, youve been lied to your whole life from the zion curtain. Im not saying there isnt a creator, but mormon religion has been proven many times to be fraudulent through all of church history. They say god created man in his own image, but isn't there a possibility that its the other way around?

[ilkcemre]

Torah, Sayings, word for word found on another planet are so astronimcally impossible that we have to rethink our stance on religion. (That takes nothing away from believing in a Creator.)

[AmericanDNA]

ummmm wrong, indians are definately not the same as swhites.. no race is like whites, whites are the crap god throughout and never finished.. When God spreads his light on our planet, thee only peoples that cant enjoy his blessed sun.. are whites.!!!.. they will burn in Hell, not because their devils children becasue the crimes they commit!.

[laurettifan]

you're an idiot

[abakuskulram]

I'm not sure what kind of trash you are, but whites are not the devil of this earth, we are the savior of the earth. The zionists are the devil of this earth, and the ones commiting crime in the name if whites are just criminal zionists agents. The true whites are intelligent, compassionate, morale and a forgiving people. So stop writing bull.

[AmericanDNA]

That is true, but there is only like 5 good white people in the whole of earth!. Most are bigots!. Hate is Taught!.

[Cuah123]

DNA evidence is also showing that the Bible is incorrect as well in regards to Jewish people being descendant from one Patriach ie Abraham.

[Outlaw1257]

Excuses, excuses, excuses!!

[Cuah123]

Outlaw, I grew up Catholic and still believe in a creator...it is easy to see that the bible is made up of many other cultures stories as well. Science is based on facts, the bible well is about truths. The facts are characters like Abraham, Moses, Adam were either synthesized or did not exist as written. As far as people being descended from one person, that is also not a fact. But we are all descended of people searching for the truth, there is a difference.

[mystynight]

At least the bible has some evidence compared to the BOM's zero evidence lol.

[SpeckCipher]

I am still looking for actutal data.

[Outlaw1257]

Dayumm, Speck??

Can't you do ANY legitimate research on your own??

[AddANumberToThis]

Why should he have to do someone elses research for them?

[Cuah123]

Ultimately, if we have to ask ourselves, if there are other people on other planets, do they believe in Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha etc...or did Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha go to their planets as well? Now I'm asking a serious question here, it brings to light that the probability of a duplicate Koran, Bible, Torah, Sayings, word for word found on another planet are so astronimcally impossible that we have to rethink our stance on religion. (That takes nothing away from believing in a Creator.)

[Outlaw1257]

Cuah;

Thanks for your response; I grew up in The Catholic Church, and at one time, even considered entering the Seminary.

As for your question about life on other planets, I, too, have entertained such thoughts, and BTW, No!! I didn't take your question to be anything but serious.

You are correct, the Bible can not, in it's truest, and scientific sense, be considered infallible.

Still, there are many sciences which

DO support mant parts of The Bible.

with BoM, there are none.

[bettacat]

Fantastic! I am definitely not decended from Israelites! Definitely not mormom, either. Thanks you for posting this intelligent, thoughtful and educational video. I believe in the Atlantic crossing, and then merging - what's your thoughts about how we X's got here to North America?

Meegwich, Betta

[Outlaw1257]

As far as substance is concerned, irrespective of agendas, I do know enough about the science of DNA to know that if HiveRadical ever made his vid presentations to any of my science proffs, he would have been laughed out of the classroon; had he been a STUDENT, he would have been kicked out on his keester!!

[Outlaw1257]

I have encountered more than a few Mormons who recognize the fallacies of LDS, but are afraid to speak out. What do they do??

They send LSA Investigators (people who are considering/studying LDS) to see me.

For the life of me, I don't understand well educated people feeling trapped in their religion, but I have seen it w/LDS!!

[Outlaw1257]

Correction to last post; I meant to say "LDS Investigators", not LSA.

Leach;

I DO agree that if TM is going to speak out against LDS (Correct in his assertions, or not!!) then he should formaly & publicly distance himself by resigning his membership in LDS.

[archileach]

Outlaw, Tommy will lose all of his supposed impartiality if he resigns his church membership. He'll be just another outside church critic, and the body of his work against them appear to be standard religious persecution. It's far too self-serving for him to retain his membership. Would you really ask him to prove his sincerity in this manner even if it made him less capable in supporting your cause?

[Outlaw1257]

Arch;

I'm really not concernes about "Sincerity", anymore that I'm concerned about "Warm, fuzzy, feelings".

What I DO care about is substance, & whether or not his "research" is valid, or stands up to objective scrutiny or critical analysis!!

[Outlaw1257]

Arch;

The reason we are having this discussion is that you are telling me that I have essentially "backed the wrong horse".

I am responding by saying "OK, you say TM is not legit; you could be right!!

So?? Let's find out!!

I don't care WHICH direction this path takes me, as long as it leads me closer to the truth. You say TM is Bogus?? Let's find out!!

If he is, I'll be the 1st to admitt I was wrong;-)

[archileach]

I would love to confront Tommy. Here's a phone and email I got from and Edmunds Community College site. Let's see if we can reach Tommy with this: Call Thomas Murphy at 425-640-1076 or email tmurphy @ edcc . edu

[deconomou]

Go ahead and call him. He's absolutely right by the way.

[archileach]

Who is it that sends LDS investigators to you, and why would any Christian group send their people to a non-Christian on matters like these?

[Outlaw1257]

Two Reasons, Arch:

"

Although I am not a Christian, I DO meet with a number of Churck Study Groups, (many different denomonations, but not w/LDS.) BTW, I present myself as a Non-Christian.

Why??

Because it forces them and me to do some serious research, rather than a class instructor "preaching to the choir"!!

[Outlaw1257]

As for Mormons who want out of the church??

I do not work with them; it's one thing to open peoples eyes to the worls o/s of LDS "approves" study resources. At the same time, I'm not equipped or qualified to help them deal w/ the potential fall-out.

You'll never hear me argue that "Mormon's cant go to Heaven"; that is IMO, total BS.

There ARE people who CAN help LDS'rs, but I'm not 1 of them.

[Outlaw1257]

RE: LDS"

There ARE members of LDS, at least where I live, who feel rather "trapped" in their relationship w/ LDS.

They fear strained marraiges, problems w/ parents?childres, ostricization, & in a few instances reprisals in the work place.

[Outlaw1257]

As for who sends those people to me?? Who do you think??

[Outlaw1257]

As to why Christains would want to break bread w/ a non Christain??

I said there were 2 reasons, only gave 1; Sorry!!

Although I'n not a Christian, I do work with some churches helping then w/ funraising, as well as helping their members who face disasters or financial hardship.

Christian or not, the only denomination they worry about is if the help comes in the form of 10, 20, 50, or 100 dollar bills!!

[Outlaw1257]

Allowing for the possibility that, as you claim, were disingenuous, the question in my mind is "Is his reasearch sound"?

[Outlaw1257]

I have studied the science of DNA extensively, although I am not an expert.

Yet, in presenting these vids to a number of college professors, (one of whom IS LDS)and in presenting rebuttals offered by HiveRadical, as well as other LDS Apologists, NONE of them including the LDS Prof, support Linsday ot LDS Inc.

[Outlaw1257]

Leach;

I'm not Tom Murphy, but why don't we have a real discussion anyway??

You are not going to get anywhere eith faceless, maneless sources.

If yoou wish to rebut or discredit Murphy, then fine""

Now, show is some verifiable credible, & OBJECTIVE (non-LDS) sources to make your case!!

I will venture with an open mind here!!

[archileach]

A denial. Sorry, but I want to question Murphy on his disingenuous story that he turned to DNA research as a way of "supporting LDS Doctrinal beliefs". You see, people close to Murphy told me that this was a blatant lie. That his anti-Mormon sentiments and work predated his move into DNA. They said that he had always been antagonistic of his church's beliefs, and that his whole career in Anthropology was built on his desire to discredit the LDS faith.

[archileach]

Murphy's own words are the biggest impediment to his credibility. Here's a guy who states that he's debunked the Book of Mormon and proven his church's founder to be a fraud, and yet he still claims that he wants to keep his church membership... that he still believes in the core of the LDS faith? Yet, he continually derides the church with vehement assertions of their lies and deceptions. He tries so hard to talk others out of the church, but he can't be talked out himself? Unbelievable.

[Outlaw1257]

Well, Leach,

On these points, I can agree with you to a certain degree.

While I do believe LDS to be based upon lies & deceptions, I also made a decision to seperate myself from LDS when the evidence became clear; DNA is but one issue, there are many others.

I don't know hoe someone can "sort of" believe in LDS, any more than a woman can be "Sort of pregnant".

[CrazyShakaZulu]

Mormonism is utter fiction.

[archileach]

CrazyShakaZulu, thanks for the treatise on Mormonism. By "utter fiction", you're not referring to some kind of cattle-worship component, are you? Because though some major world religions revere cows, I hadn't "herd" this used against Mormons... yet.

[Outlaw1257]

Any other lies you care to share with us, Leach??

Again, you offer accusations & character assaults with ZERO*ZILCH*ZIP*NADA in thee way of evidence!!

So far you have offered me NO reason to believe you; I have not so much dennigrated your "sources" as I have questioned the existance of them.

who are these "sources"?? "Angels" who appear while you are staring at a rock in a hat??

[archileach]

LOL Outlaw. No my sources are some of Tommy's inner circle... those who know him BEST. Come on Outlaw, don't you want to admit something to us? Or perhaps you would prefer that I refer to you as the modern-day Galileo?

[Outlaw1257]

Oh, Lord!!

Here we go again; Your "sources" are as ficticious as the "golden plates" Smith supposedly "translated" by staring at a rock in a hat.

I've seen plenty of students who flunked courses, and you lamments of Tom Murphy sound no different.

If these people had any subsatance or true convictions, they would have spoken out.

Your "sources" are figments of your imagination, & nothing more!!

[archileach]

LOL Outlaw, you wish that I'd only been a disgruntled student in Tommy's class. Not so. I don't see any denials here about being Tommy. If you're interested in a straight discussion, I can ask you a couple of well-placed questions that will confirm immediately if you're the new Galileo or not. Care to go here?

[Outlaw1257]

Don't see any denials about being Tommy??

Am I the new Galileo??

Arch, no sarcasm intended here, but I'm clueless as to what your point is here.

[archileach]

Outlaw, no sarcasm is good. Let me ask you straight-forwardly then, are you Tom Murphy? If you aren't that's fine, but if you are, why not have a real discussion then?

[Outlaw1257]

No, Leach,

I'm not Tom Murphey; don't know where that came from, guess you aare getting a bit defensive about having to defend your ficticious "sources"

[Outlaw1257]

Leach; You have had more than adequate opportunity to prove your claims regarding your feweble-minded attempts to discredit Murphey.

You have no evidence, do you?? You are just another Mormon Bald Faced Liar. Care to prove otherwise?? Oh, that's right!! You CAN'T!

[archileach]

Outlaw, you keep asking me for my sources on Tommy, but I've told you I can't give them. Yes, it seems like a standoff, doesn't it? Tell you what, you get Tommy to show up here, and I'll see if he will allow me to reveal them. Fair enough?

BTW Outlaw, I still think it's rather lazy of you not to have looked into the truth of my comments on Tommy for yourself. They're blatantly obvious for anyone who is willing to take an honest look.

[Outlaw1257]

Well, Leach, if what you are saying about Tom Murphey is true, then thee should be sources outside of LDS denouncing them. Thus far, I have found none.

Here you are, with your feeble accusations, offering nothing more than "I can't identify my sources", and LDS ramdlings to support that accusation. Add to that, the "I work in a scientific field" ambiguity, which you have still failed to clairify, and what is left??

[Outlaw1257]

Tell you what, Leach;

Since you claim to know Murphey, why don't YOU get him here; then while you're at it, get Dr. David Glen Smith & Dr. Paul Simmington here as well.

You won't give sources because they have no credibility.

[archileach]

Outlaw, you know nothing about my "sources", so denigrating them is meaningless. Tommy would acknowledge them and even defend them, which is exactly why they would be so good in confronting him. He's been dishonest and selective in evaluating DNA evidence. He's also been bigoted and unfair in his judgments and statements against the LDS Church. You only have to look at the evidence and his statements to see this.

[crustyforever]

If the BoM were on trial in United States court, it would be proven to be a lie based on DNA evidence, and archeology evidence. Sorry TBM's, don't worry though, there is a true church, the Roman Catholic church all the way!

[BoredAgain2006]

Do you understand dna crusty? I think possibly not. DNA has shown an ancestral link between some american indians and some asians. DNA misses out most of our ancestors. It hasn't proved a thing. The BOM is true Im afraid. RC church is wonderful too! lol

[archileach]

No it wouldn't crusty. The case would be dropped for lack of sufficient evidence. Courts recognize modern DNA analysis because they can sample a defendant and compare that to another discreet sample. Was O.J. convicted by this? Are Native Americans today representative of those of 1600 years ago? How about modern Jewish groups? Are they different to ancient Israelites from 2600 years ago? You bet they are, and there is your problem. There's much more than a reasonable doubt here.

[archileach]

Crusty, don't be deceived by dishonest "researchers" who make analysis claims that go way past the limits of DNA science. Their claims are falling apart as we speak. This is one reason they don't publish this in peer-reviewed genetics journals. There is a serious and inherent anti-Mormon agenda in their work. They are guilty of gross neglect and knowing distortion as well.

[Outlaw1257]

Crusty; I've met w/ university professors & DNA experts during my course of being a serious LDS Investigator. (someone who is considering joining LDS) NONE of the professors or adjucnt faculty members placed any credence in Jeff Lindsay, FARMS FAIRLDS, FIELDS or any other LDS "research" group. You are correct in LDS would not withstand legal scrutiny.

[archileach]

My statements on Tommy are all quite accurate dude. Why don't you look into this? Google Tom and Galileo for example, and see how many hits you get. No, seeing as you're too mentally lazy, I'll throw you a bone: as of right now, there are 336,000 hits on "Tom Murphy Galileo". I'm trying to be discreet in my criticism since I have first-hand inside knowledge on him.

[Outlaw1257]

Again, you continue with your baseless assertions; All quite accurate??? Proof of this??? I'm still waiting!!Quit the side-stepping & LDS Goosestepping...the ONLY critical assessments are from those who have ties to LDS; so, you have this "1st hand inside knowledge"?? Bring it here for discussion. You have offered ZERO credible evidence.

[Outlaw1257]

So, Leach, are we to believe something is true based simply upon Google hits, or how many people believe something??

Adolph Hitler would ave loved you!!

Your "First-hand knowledge; were you a student who failed his class?? He is to be discredited because of you non-specific assertions??

The hat that you've been staring into has been off-gassing; the resins have pickled your brain cells!!

[archileach]

Nice try outlaw, but I'm not going to reveal my relationship because I don't want to betray any trusts. Sorry. Regardless of this, all of my assertions are true, and I've given you ample means of verifying them for yourself. You're too intellectually lazy to look into this on your own though. Or perhaps you're afraid of the truth. Tommy is not an honest researcher, and he has certainly been driven to slander by his critical agenda. Is this the kind of person you can look to for truth?

[Outlaw1257]

Leach; Okay, Gottch!! Let me put this in a way that Mormons can understand. Whereas you offer half assed, noneconfirmable libelous allegations against Murphy, it is plausible to believe that you flunked his class. The fact that you are unable to prove otherwise means that the probability of you having flunked his class can not be complete outruled!!

[Outlaw1257]

Intellectually lazy?? Yeah, Right Leach!!

It's just that I'm not intellectually foolish to believe an LDS apologists "research" which does not withstand closer scrutiny.

[Outlaw1257]

Leach;You are not going reveal your source because you are a bald faced liar who can not offer any evisence to support your claims.

You attack Murphey, don't even hold a pair of 2's in your hand, & want to bluff your way through.

Leach, you are a liar & an LDS shill.

[archileach]

Honesty is paramount in science, and sins of omission are often career-destroying events. This is probably the most devastating problem for Tom, who has previously accepted himself as a crusader comparable to Galileo. God complexes are so out of vogue among true scientists today. However, Tom hasn't caught on to this yet. Ego has never eluded this subjective researcher.

[Outlaw1257]

Arch, you are always quite strong in your condemnation of Murphy; yet you offer NOTHING in the way of CREDIBLE evidence to support your claims. I've read through your previous posts; assertions with ZERO evidence to support them.

[archileach]

Third, is refuting the links that have recently been discovered tying Native Americans and Jewish peoples to each other. Fourth, is in acknowledging his own inadequacy for this task, and his own bias so overwhelmingly exhibited in his previous papers, speeches, and works. Fifth, is regaining credibility by being honest in presenting the known supportive and non-supportive evidence on the subject.

[archileach]

Tom Murphy has insurmountable problems to overcome in using DNA analysis to disprove the Book of Mormon. First and foremost is the problem of using DNA analysis in its present state of scientific capability to correctly extrapolate results with any significant meaning. Second, is specifying two representative groups that will allow conclusive proof that Book of Mormon people were not ancient Israelites.

[archileach]

Tommy's theory has fallen flat in the last few years, but he doesn't admit this. He doesn't admit that there's no meaningful mtDNA homology among modern jews, or that, due to its recent origin, internal controls of the Lemba aren't applicable to Book of Mormon groups, or that Cohen priests aren't expected to have been among Lehi's ancestry. He doesn't admit the presence of a founding Y-chromosome haplotype present among Jewish communities worldwide AND in Native Americans at a high frequency.

[archileach]

So funny to see supposed Christians using this guy's flawed theory to attack Mormons. Do you really believe his story that Native Americans migrated from Asia 10,000 to 35,000 years ago on a land bridge? And his belief that DNA proves that humans and monkeys had a common ancestor about 4 Million years ago? This is what Tommy means when he says "ultimately all humans are related to each other". What an ape.

[DangMe2L]

Just a couple points, leach.

1. "flawed theory". How so? References (outside of FAIR/FARMS?Lindsay)

2. Ancient Amerinds migrations. There were 3 other scientists you did not mention in video, 1 non-LDS, who concur with "Tommy".

3. Humans all related. Is this not what LDS teaches?

Noah would be the common ancestor of all humans, right?

4. Even Encyclopedias agree as to origins and dates of Asian Migrations to America.

[mpetrie]

You know what's funny? The DNA "evidence" claims to go back over 25,000 years. Guess the DNA proves the Bible is a fraud as well because the Bible claims to go to the beginning of man... which is... according to the Bible roughly only about 6,000 years ago.

[DangMe2L]

Thats right, mpetrie!!

[NoneBeforeNoneAfter]

Dont be afraid to study this indepth and find the real truth. God wants us to seek and to find. Stop by you local christian church and you will get the truth about being truly saved. I love mormon. I have given my life to get them on the right path to salvation.

[cmurd7]

If you're going to use science to disprove religion, you might want to look at your own beliefs. Show me some scientific evidence that it is possible to turn water in to wine, or part the red sea, or heal a blind man by telling him to put clay in his eyes and then go wash it out, etc. hmmmm, seems like science isn't the answer my friend.

[utahaztec]

I am not a fucking Lamanite.

[aaronshaf2006]

MormonWiki[dot]org/Multimedia

[KOLOB22]

aaron. This link doesn't work. ;)

[AmaranthineSomnuim]

Why must we put down or bash other religions? Why can't we just accept people for who they are and what they believe? There is nothing so personal as attacking someone's personal beliefs about religion. We don't need to be doing that. Stick with what you believe and leave other peoples beliefs alone.

[KOLOB22]

Read JS 2:19 PoGP

[bryanmonson]

Huh? There is no JS 2:19 in the Pearl of Great Price.

[KOLOB22]

My 1961 version of PGoP (yeah, I'm old) that I used on my mission and all the way to my resignation from LDS in 2001,has JS (Joseph Smith) located right after the book of Abraham and the cut of the "related" facsimile from the papyrus. It is called, Writings of Joseph Smith. The citation abbreviation for this LDS cannon of scripture is "JS". LDS changes it's scripture all the time so...?

[KOLOB22]

You've read the BoM "hundreds" of times? Reading it is not the same as opening it to read a passage--you do understand the diff don't you, bryan?

My BS detector just went balistic.

[use2Bslave]

Amaranthine. Where does it state that to question or even challenge a particular claim to truth by a religion is "bashing" or a "put down"? Seems to me to be a crybaby tactic in order not to have to deal with the issue.

Galileo challenged/"bashed" the Catholic Faith that the earth was the center of the universe. Was that a bad thing?

[Teutonik]

1) If they test such a wide variety of people, it doesn't matter. Plus don't trust that book of lies.

2) There "DNS" shouldn't be different at all, and if He just changed their skin color, or gave them the mark of cain, there dna wouldn't change at all.

3)Archeology does, there is no proof of there great race, no "iron rods" or steel blades or records of fights at all. In fact in most areas it would have been impossible to mine such ores because they simply weren't there.

[bryanmonson]

Your intelect (or lack thereof) baffles me. Book of truth rather. And ANY honest person will read it and know it came from God. My guess is you haven't read one page of the Book of Mormon. I have read it hundreds of times and it is the most powerful book ever written. By the way, the Iron rod was seen in a vision. Steel blades have been found in plenty, and there are plenty of such ore mines. What are you smoking?

[KOLOB22]

monson. 2+2 would baffle you, you arrogant prick. Take your meds and relax. You'll be OK tomorrow.

[bryanmonson]

I've never come across one lie in the Book of Mormon, just plenty from the likes of you. Oh, and not to embarass you in front of your corney anti-mormon buddies, but here is your reference:Richard A. Diehl, The Olmecs: America's First Civilization (Thames & Hudson, 2004), 93-94. Several tons of worked iron has been discovered. Now you don't use old material in your act and look silly.

[KOLOB22]

You are no one of consequence that I should feel "embarassed" by, bryan. Thanks for your concern though.

Thanks for the ref. (Finally) I will check it out.

In the meantime you can check out Simon Southernton's book, Losing a Lost Tribe RE: DNA vs Amerinds.

[KOLOB22]

You come here and make these wild claims (steel blades, mines) and not ONE reference. Your scholarship

is underwhelming! BoM is really "chloroform in print".

"Most powerful book ever written." You've GOT to be kidding!

[bryanmonson]

Slow down professor! Did anyone else realise there was a reveared "scholar" among us? Maybe you can start by helping us understand what "DNS" is. Cant wait to tune into that lecture Einstein. I think all of us are a little tired of your wild claims that you somehow in the know, intentionally turing a blind eye to other relivent facts.

[KOLOB22]

Amusing. You focus on Teutonik's "DNS" mistake (the "A" and "S" keys are right next to each other, you dork), yet YOU turn right around and misspell

"relevant", INDICATING, of course your hypocritical nature, your judgemental attitude and your self righteous arrogance. You need to speak to your bishop!!

Get a life.

[bryanmonson]

And do we really need a reference for mines? A little silly. Just google "mines of north and south america." Plenty of metal and mining going on. Here is your reference if it will help you: "Google.com".

[KOLOB22]

.(I'm surprised I am even responding to such an anal point!!)Just in case you REALLY don't get it, bryan, (I know it's complicated) but stick with me for about 5 seconds.

NOBODY questions the existence of iron ore mines and deposits that ARE located all over the Americas today. What LDS needs is evidence of iron mines and iron works that date between 1000 BC and 420 AD, so that when BoM says "iron swords" etc., evidence shows today that they DID work iron products. So far? ZERO!

[HumbleWillis]

1) The BOM never says that there were no other inhabitants on the continent.

2) At the beginning of the BOM the Lamanites are CHANGED by god, wich explains why their DNS is different.

3) At the end of the BOM the Nephites go extinct from genocide.

CONCLUSION) DNA doesn't disprove the BOM

[Ebomb79]

1)Where does the BOM say there "were other inhabitants"? Doesn't it say the land was preserved from other nations for them?

2)Where does it say God changed their DNA? Why would he change it into Asian DNA, in fact change it in such a way to leave a clear trail of genetic dispersion from aisa throughout the americas?

3)Where is the evidence to back up your claim that the Nephites became extinct? Where is the evidence that they ever really existed?

[piaofu]

Mormons should start questioning their church founder's background first before spreading the 'only true church' fiction story to others. You owe it to society that u are trying to convert into the most false church. I dont have to go far to find out if JS was a conman. Just this fact - JS said he gave the gold plates back to GOd. It's clear cut big lie the mormon founder!

[sticky793]

Didn't Israel cease to exist around 70AD. And before that wasnt there a dispersion of the Israelite tribes who went to the 'lands of the North' So with who are these 'experts' comparing American Indian DNA with? Modern Israel has only existed since 1948 and is composed mainly of those of European origin.

[KOLOB22]

That's like saying that since your kids moved away from home they no longer carry the genes of you and your wife. The Limba tribe in africa are a good example. A group of Isrealites migrated to Africa and intermarried with the Limba a 1000 plus years ago.

[KOLOB22]

The DNA of the ancestors of the Limba, though they were all black skinned, the Hebrew DNA STILL showed clearly that they were, as they claimed decendents of

Isreal--as the Amerinds would had they REALLY decended from Joseph and Mormons claim.

[MrWhipple517]

point of fact, Israel was conqured by the Assyrians shortly after 600 BC. The bulk of the upper and middle class were taken as slaves to Assyria. Josephus in his history of the Jews tells us that they later escaped and went into the northern countries. (the Caucus and mabie to the Stepps of Russia?

[johnny2tows]

dude i totally found a scripture in the bible that rebukes the DNA theory. i just wrote it down somewhere and lost it. ill post it tommorow though. dont fret.

[KOLOB22]

You mean to tell me that the police are going to have to re-arrest those freed from prisons cuz DNA shoed them innocent?? And the Judicial system around the world are now NOT going to allow DNA evidence in court? How about all those babies that now don't know who their parents are cuz DNA has been proven faulty by a bible passage!! OH! MY GOD!! (sarcasm)

[KOLOB22]

I thought so. Here we are, a month later and Johnny2tows has not yet come up with he magic biblical scripture that was going to bury DNA. Still waitin...

[bryanmonson]

You're a dick.

[KOLOB22]

Another intelligent remark by the KING of intelligence

You have them (dicks)in one or the other of your orifices enough that you would know where-of you speak, bryan--especially those at FARMS and FAIR. You and Lindsay are probably good buddies in that regard. (wink, wink) In fact, that is probably the ONLY area that you may be considered an "expert" at. Advice: stick to what you do best.

[TeddyLeper]

The genetic evidence as it stands, shows that all people descended from Africans, despite this dudes alleged "evidence" from the Book of Mormon. Last I heard, Mormonism is not scientific proof of the actual growth/dispersion of humans.

[bryanmonson]

Nor does "Mormonism" proport to be a growth/dispersion of humans (whatever that means anyway).

[KOLOB22]

You have criticized others for THEIR mispelling, yet here you are bryan, mispelling "purport". LOL!!!

"PURPORT", bryan. NOT "proport"!! Of course you don't have to worry about spellings if you are plagiarizing (stealing) someone else's words, right?

But you dared to speak your own words this time and look what happened.