Hallo: Danke für das Video, ich habe es erst heute entdeckt. Aus keiner Universität der Welt sind soviele Nobelpreisträger hervorgegangen wie aus Breslau. Polnische Einflüsse im positiven Sinne in dieser Zeit bis 1945 leider Fehlanzeige. Mit der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus den von Ihnen kultivierten Gebieten begann eine Zeit des wirtschaftlichen und kulturellen Abstiegs. Jetzt geht es wieder aufwärts, durch deutsche Gelder von der EU. Der größte Raub wird nicht bestraft. Glück auf Schlesien.
The firs anti-German uprising of Silesians took place in 1919. The reasons were"
- The uprising of Silesian workers in Rosenburg in June, put down by German police.
- The Myslovitz massacre. When German Grenzschutzu opened fire on 3000 demonstrating miners from the "Mysłowice mine" and their families, killing 7 men, two women and a boy.
- The August repressions by Oberschlesisches Freiwilligen-Korps, and mass redundancies in mines like "Lithandra" or "Prinzengrube",
In 1919, after Germany's defeat, Berlin revolution and collapse of German administraion in every Upper Silesian district Polish-speaking people organised "people's councils" with the "Superem People's Council" in Beuthen and "Polnische Arbeits Vereinigung" with 200 000 members...
To those spontaneous forms of Silesian-Polish public life in1919 Germans responded with arrests, beatings and terror by paramilitary organisations like "Oberschlesisches Freiwilligen-Korps".
Nice song, by the way. Pity that some time after 1871, Prussian nationalists started labelling everything as "German" as if they wanted to mask reality. This nationalism was a failed attempt to bind the people together. By 1921 some 40% Upper Silesians and 47% of those who lived in Silesia, had enough of the farse.
No only "Deutshe Vereinigung" - EVERY REGION had its own German organisation. Jungdeutsche Partei (teren całej Polski), Deutsche Vereinigung (Pomorze. Poznańskie), Deutscher Volksbund (Śląsk). I will send you a link...
Holy crap! If an average German nationalist or, as a matter of fact, an average German has the level of historical knowledge you got, Radagis2, then Germany should seeeeriously revise its educational system.
I ma not denying the multiethnic character of the Ist Republic. This was perfect. However, later after occupation of Silesia, Greater Poland and Pomerania, Pussia abused its status and embraked on germanisation. This alienated people and so many voted for Poland in Silesia. Germany later would never accept that decision.
@IustitiaPax - Silesia was not in the 1st Republic but the X-XII century Kingdom of Poland. Then in XII-XIV it was independent. Later part of Bohemian Crown. Pomerania-Stolp was a Polish fief in XV century.
@Gattamella Silesia was never part of a unified Polish state. After 1164 AD, Poland fell into Particularism and separation. In 1147 AD, Wladyslaw II the Exiled had taken Silesia as a fief from Holy Roman Emperor. They did not marry German princesses in vain. Poland was a tribal confederative state before 1386 AD, not to be compared to a modern centralized republic or the 12th century kingdom of Saxony (which was united and controlled). Pomerania-Stolp had been independent before XV century.
@IustitiaPax - So what? Stolp was part of Gdansk Pomerelia until 1308 and was a fief of Poland for 80 years. Silesia was Polish since X century until mid XII century. Lated independent. In 1147 Silesia did not become part of the Empire. You are wrong sorry :)
@Gattamella Pomerania-Stolp was only very temporarily (around 1409). It was a particularist Duchy from the once united Duchy of Pomerania which had subjected to the Holy Roman Empire in 1181 AD already. The alliance with Poland does not mean it was a "fief of Poland". This is false. In 1455 Eric II of Pomerania-Stolp-Wolgast received the Lauenburg and Bütow lands from the Polish king. In 1466 the Polish king sacked Stolp. Weird to sack your own "fief" not?
@IustitiaPax - Pomerania Stolp was a FIEF of Poland since 1390 when Wratislaw took oath of allegiance to Jagiello until 1478, when it was joined to other Pomeranian duchies.
@Gattamella Your Polish "historians" do not know the difference between a political alliance and being a fief. Pomerania-Stolp was never a fief and never a property of Poland. It was entirely independent and a part of the Holy Roman Empire historically, but it allied with the Polish king indeed in that year. Finland was not a "fief" of Germany either in WW2, nor was Slovakia in WW2. They were allies of Germany, not fiefs.
The First Republic is simply the Polish Kingdom and Grand Duchy of Lithuania with changed name. Silesia was so long a part of Poland as long as Kazimierz III Great relinquish rights to Silesia. He did not have the choice. Gdańsk Pomerania was more precious.
Pope renounceed the principate of Cracow in 1179. Then Silesia became and INDEPENDENT domain. Then one by one, Silesian dukes started becoming vasslas of Czech or Germans kings/emperors.
But only in 1339 when Kazimierz the Great renounced his rights to Silesia, German emperor, Ludwig von Wittelsbach, issued an edict establishing one Duchy of Silesia ("Duacatus Silesaie") with himself as its supreme duke, did Silesia formally ceased to be part of Poland.
Yes they did, and that was the subject of a disupute between Kazimierz the Great and John Luxembourg. Silesia was de iure a part of Regnum Poloniae. Regunum Poloniae had a senioral-principal system where dukes of Cracow were supreme. Some Silesian dukes paid tribute to Germany but so did some other Polish dukes - and that does not mean Poland was "German Empire". Wrymouth's father paid tribute to Germany but Poland was not part of the empire. You are confusing tributary relation with annexion.
1. Poland was not peacefully dissolved but was subjugated after a war against Russia and Prussia, and later after a failed an uprising in 1794. People were executed for betrayal, and there was civil war. It was not peaceful.
2. The law was granted to the new settlement, but show me it had German majority prior to 1308 - what you said before.
3. Look. I dont care whose invitation it was. The truth is that they destroyed the indigenous culture, folklore and language. Effect was disastrous.
@Gattamella 1. Poland-Lithuania was dissolved by monarchies and in full agreement of the Polish nobility in most cases. It was relatively peaceful, though Polish national awareness increased after 1791 and its constitution proclamation. 2. There was no other town in Danzig than the German town which received town law in 1223 from Swantopolk II. Do not deny these historical facts please. It makes you look silly. A German town is a German town in 1308, when Ostsiedlung was at its highest peak.
Yes, 100% true. Gdańsk was German town. But geographical reason: Outside Reich. Poland never sold Gdańsk. Poland never gave Gdańsk as the present. This is the fact. Please, do not negate to the truth.
@AZsaturn Auto-determination. If the Wielkopolska Poles could rise up in 1919 and secede, so could Danzig in 1939, when it wanted to rejoin the German fatherland. If Wilno could join Poland in 1923, then Danzig could join Germany. But you use two standards, one anti-German standard for Germans and one extremely opportunistic standard for Polish enterprises.
I never praised the Poles from Vilnius for secession. On the contrary. No city has no right to declare secession without asking the opinion of the rest of the state. Especially that Vilnius is the most important place in the heart of every Lithuanian. Capital city always been. Place the first heads of the Lithuanian state.
@IustitiaPax I'm not using two standards. I use only one: Every country is a legal person. Each legal person has his legal representatives. Representatives of the legal person shall assume all rights, liabilities and debts of the legal person. A legal person, which was the Second Reich had an enormous debt to the legal person which was the Second Republic. It's my only standard.
Before Mikołaj Rej and Jan Kochanowski, people knowing to write, seldom used Polish languace. If Copernicus was German in such case 100% Poles they are or were:
@Gattamella They were no Poles they are were to occupy by polnish and were forced to be polnish, to speak German was forbidden and hard punshed in your crime country. The british called Poland from 1919-1939 "Schurkenstaat". only when the british needed you as a war reason against germany there was a changing, Poland was a willing pawn sacrifice, can you read by Curchill or Ian Kershaw. Kennedy said poland was guilty for ww2 but thats were not fair you were used by zionist interessts.
@Radagis2 John F. Kennedy stated that Poland was the solely guilty part for WW2. This is not true. The Entente abused historical Polish extreme nationalism and Polish militarism of the Colonels' regime under Józef Beck, which until 1938 had been relatively friendly with Germany.... Poland indeed was abused. Polish nationalism was ill-guided, as it attacked another European opponent of Communism: Hitler Germany. They proved more Germanophobe than anti-Communist unfortunately.....
@IustitiaPax poland was never friendly since 1919 to the germans they were bruatly forced to be polnish like the ukrain and other people to many were prisoned and died in polnish kz. Over 800K Germans to fled in the the 20. from the polnish terror. They torpedoed democratic efforts during weimarer republic. Hitler was the first german leader which had negotiations wirh poland and accepted at first german cancelor the new polnish borders except he only wanted a voting about danzig and transit.
@Radagis2 I know that between 1919 until 1926, the state of Poland harassed the Germans, in 1929 German owners were expropriated without compensation, I all know this. And in 1933, Pilsudski wanted France and Britain to help him defeat Nazi Germany and invade it. But from 1934-1938 relations were quite good, even cordial from 1934-36. The Entente-orientation of Poland indeed made the Polish authorities arrogant and more violent internally. Hitler indeed was not a Polonophobe at all.
"in 1929 German owners were expropriated without compensation".
Slander. Show me proofs. Without proofs, one ought to suppose that simply they abandoned houses, because did not please to them the return of the legal ruler.
"Hitler indeed was not a Polonophobe at all." Indeed, indeed. I heard the gossip that Hitler had said that if his people were such as Polish soldiers, he would be able to master with the world. He would not be able to. King of losers.
@IustitiaPax One of the biggest murders of the Polish nation Adolf Hitler was not a Polonophobe? To be honest I partly agree with you but only until 1939. Than after the Great Britain promised to help Poles when Germany would invade Poland. Hitler saw that his life dreams to conquer eastern Europe were shattered.
Piłsudski wanted to lunch together with France a preventive attack on the third Reich because he knew that the German nationalism was a threat - now we see he was right.
@RitterDesHimmels1 The Polish leadership is to be blamed for WW2 entirely along with Britain and France. If you think "German nationalism was threat", then why would the Polish regime after 1937 start encircling Germany with a British-French alliance. Do you encircle a bear in the wood? No, you keep a respectful distance and the bear will respect you. Piłsudski in 1935 saw he had been wrong in 1933 on Germany, that is why he was poisoned.
@IustitiaPax "Do you encircle a bear in the wood?" - you seek people that would be able to help you.
Piłsudski was not wrong in 1933. Even after that year he said: around the year 1938 Poland will by attacked by Germany or USSR. He was not poisoned, it is only another lie.
@IustitiaPax - "The Polish leadership is to be blamed for WW2 entirely along with Britain and France." Sure. Everyone is guilty but not poor Germany. Not in 1914, 1939, 1940 or 1941. Never. A typical German "alternative history". You are a simple neonazi apologete. Sorry but not even the most extreme revisionists and apologetists deny the fact of Nazi-orchestrated mass-murder and genocide. The "bear" never respected its neighbours right from its defeat in 1918. The bear's only aim was revange.
What a insolence. What a manipulation. Even you do not try, so that your slander sound reliably. Polish government did not infringe the balance of power. Nobody from behind Reich transformed her into the superpower, clever to the conquest of the almost all continent. Not counting creditors.
A saint and natural right is the treat of precautions, if the neighbour is transformed into the superpower. More powerful than France, Great Britain and Poland together taken. There must be the balance of power at any cost. The balance of power did not allow to the III World War.
@AZsaturn Germany from 1939 and until 1941 remained far weaker than both Poland-France-Britain combined and than the USSR alone in 1941. Of course Germany had military genius. That is why they won the Polish Campaign against the odds. And because of the Westwall and French passivity..... The "weaker Polish Army" is a myth. As are the "Polish cavallery against German tanks". Germany had very few tanks in fact in 1939-40. Even the Benelux countries invasion was mainly with horses - FACTS!
You did not see photos of Hitler against the background of the Eiffel Tower ? The shocking proof how many errors committed Allies. Reich infringed the balance of power. This is FACT. Every who has a neighbour who infringed the balance of power, has the right take steps the prudence. Reich did not hide plans of the enlargement of its own borders. Lebensraum.
@AZsaturn The French population did not want to fight. Now they suffer from the Vichy syndrom of dementia, but from 1940-44 they all supported Pétain (who was chosen by the French parliament), only few supported Charles de Gaulle (who was a brave, but revenge-driven chauvinist and anti-cooperationist). Some French officers in the Vichy French colonies also sympathized with De Gaulle. Again, France lost due to Blitzkrieg. French armament was stronger, French tanks were more numerous. A fact.
French tanks had a potential to massacring Wehrmacht. Which had then many light tanks. Light tanks often did not have a guns, but rifles. But the most French tanks were not there equipped the radio! The tank without the radio is an useless toy. The practice showed, who appeared more threatening. Even after the connection of powers with British people. One may not to forgive the infringements of the balances of power. Luftwaffe humiliated France and Britain trouble-free. A fact.
@AZsaturn Lebensraum in France? Nonsense. Alsace-Lorraine were not "Lebensraum", but ancient German-speaking territories, although since 1945 like Luxembourg they have gradually been turned away from "Prussia" and are more oriented to France and Francophonization, destroying ancient Alamannic German dialects in the process. Germany could not infringe the balance, was it remained far weaker than the Entente in 1939-43.
Hitler would prevail, if planned the attack on USSR so, so that do not catch up winter. Only the English Channel rescued Britain. With the modest help of the Squadron 303. The practice showed that Reich had been a superpower whose the world did not see from times of the Napoleon. Even more powerful than Napoleon.
@AZsaturn The UK received all USA aid it needed, long before Lend Lease Agreement. You always fail to ask yourself, why Roosevelt and Churchill never declared war upon the USSR after its invasion and occupation of Poland? Read Finnish intelligence officer Erkki Hautamäki and his books, like Suomi myrskyn silmässä, 2005 (Swedish: Finland i stormens öga, 2004). The UK and USA had long divided the world. And even anti-Nazi Crown Prince Otto von Habsburg said Eleanor Roosevelt was a Communist lady!
@IustitiaPax - although under Napoleon some took up arms with the Freemason Tadeusz Kosciusko".... dude... please, you again talk nonsense. Nobles were forced to cooperate or be stripped from estates. Those who opposed were.
Prussia dismantled Poland but was too weak to keep it that way on her own. And no, Prussia did not cooperate and was not liberal like Austria. Prussia was nationalist. After 100 years of occupation + germanisation she had to pay the price for her crime
Because the idea of the isolationism was still very strong in the American society. The war against USSR would be contradictory with business of the Uncle San. Think what would be if Reich prevailed. A dozen or so years later, intercontinental rockets in West Europe. Unnecessary Amerika Bomber.
Poland had a poor air defence. A few bombers it did not determine the threat, because nobody was a competition for Luftwaffe. The fleet microscopic. Reich tanks incurred losses, because this were mostly light tanks. Battles in which Poles gave Reich substantial losses, decided the geography, the courage and the quantity of the ammunition. In the East, Wehrmacht was destroy by General Winter. In the West, the sonar.
@AZsaturn The German Luftwaffe was not strong in 1939 either, although they used the newest tactics and technology. The German Wehrmacht was still like in 1931, when Poland could have easily overrun Germany again.
"1931, when Poland could have easily overrun Germany again."
Again? I do not remember, so that Reich any time allegedly to throw on her knees by Poland. Before Battle of Britain, nobody was a threat for Luftwafe. This is FACT.
Do not dally. The second Republic was smaller than the First Republic. Reich kept the part of booties which took during the partitioning: Warmia and small pieces of Wielkopolska. Together greater than Autonomous Silesian Voivodship. Bills was strongly not even. Today bills are even. Vassals do not dictate conditions to the head of state.
If you praise Reich for the treat of precautions, then you have not the right to slander other for the treat of precautions. All has her own reason. A reason of the war was the incalculable voracity of Prussia. Their incalculable conceit and "the living space".
@AZsaturn - Iustita, is a cunning pro-Nazi. He is hiding it, but his comments and spam-slogans reveal it. Probably a descendant of Silesian Germans born in the Netherlands. He's trying to divide the Polabians, Silesians and Pomeranians and even Kashubians and separate them from the other Poles, yet he is talking of Pommersch-Prussian Germans and Austrians as of one nation. I bet he even regards the Dutch as Germans.
@Radagis2 The western press called Poland a rogue state at various times in the Interbellum era. Mainly in 1921 during the Silesian Uprisings by Polish extremists, but also in 1938, when Józef Beck decided to annex Zaolzie from the dissolving artificial state of Czechoslovakia, as well to expell Jews from office and from Polish territory. I have Dutch newspapers documenting it all. My grandparents' neighbours until 1942 (hiding after) were Moscowicz, fled from Poland in 1937.
The slander. Your slander are already proverbial. On the eve of the war, Poland had a highest percentage of Jews in Europe. Because nowhere they feels so safely and was within an inch of from Reich were they treated in which worse than rats. All has own reason. Polands Silesia during the Second Republic was microscopical to taking by Prussia of Wielkopolska and Pomerania.
@AZsaturn - Iustitia bias is striking. First he failed even to understand that 480 000 Upper Silesians voted for Poland. 40% of the population. A population in which Polish-speakers constituted some 57%.
Yet he will talk of Germans in Pomerelia even though they were minority and it was a Polish domain for centuries. This is a hopeless case. The fellow is completely blind to German mass-murder. He totally fails to understand that Nazis commited the greatest crime in the history of humanity.
The old Polish proverb speaks: You "take over character traits of people with which you exist". Poles who survived the war, spent six years with officials SS. SS rooted out from us the compassion. If Great Britishers already earlier planned the attack, what held back their? What for did they have to wait till Hitler will become themselves with the most powerful individual in the world? Several years earlier, this rotter would not have chances. This is the vulnerability of Your reasoning.
@AZsaturn The expulsion was contemplated in 1939 already. The Poznan newspapers claimed, that the Polish Army in August 1939 would march into Berlin. The ruthless mentality of Polish officials was made clear in the massacres of tens of thousands of entirely defenceless ethnic Germans in August and September 1939 by Polish Army and Polish Police. All documented, even by Dutch and Swiss and Swedish investigators! You are blind to Polish crimes.
1. What massacres in August and September 1939? There were no massacres of 10s of 1000s Germans. Prove it if they are so well documented. Afaik the Germans made them all up to excuse their invasion and mass-murder.
2. There was no expropriation of Germans. In 28 XII 1925 the parlimant passed a law by which it would BUY OFF land from estates over 180 ha at market price, and parcel it among the farmers. There was no ethnic-bias in that law. You are lying yet again.
@IustitiaPax Dutch, Swiss and Swedish investigators? Said what? When??? There was no murder of Germans in Poland in August 1939. There were Bromberg riots in September 1939. Germans took arms against withdrawing Polish troops, shooting at them from the windows. German Vth column and the treachery of German minority in Poland is a well known fact. During occupations German minority was the first one to help the Gestapo hunt down Polish elites in the Intelligenzaktion, and first to steal property
@Radagis2 - thats just the truth and your lack of arguments only confirms the fact that German propaganda can't hold a decent scrutiny. German hardcore nationalists are only good in repeating cheap cliche slogans they were made to believe in, like trained parrots. Once they are exposed to facts, figures and sources they stick their heads in the sand.
@Gattamella Yes you have right poland crime state from 1919-1939, murder of many ukrain and german people, raping, mortgage repossession, brutaly banishment, prisoned in first kz of european ground, forced to be polnish, forbidden their to speak their native languages. war with all neigbours, permanent agitation against germany. War planes against Germany before Hitler came to power, bulkheading of east prussia, highest illiteracy rate that was the great poland before WW2 was started
@Radagis2 - LOOOOL!!!!! 1919-1939 was no murder of Germans or Ukrainians. History knows of no such thing. Germans had their own minority organisations, schools, bunds and politicians. Get a new brain buddy. Germans never accepted Polish independence so they started mass-murder, rape and genocide. Which lasted for 5 years and was the worst crime ever commited! The funniest thing is that they well know what they did, but now to try pose as victims. You reap you sow. Mass-murder started 1939.
@Gattamella haha the crimes against german ukrain and other people are well known, ever your british master äh friends calle poland "Schurkenstaat" read for example Ian Kershaw or what Kenedy said he told poland was guilty for ww2 but that were not fair because your crime government to delivered just the war reason for Britain. Read yor well known polnish historian he said the truth to your people but you want just life in your victim myth.
@Gattamella What you said is not true the german and ukrain people had der own schools before they came under the polnish control, polnish government closed school and banned from university too, they had not the same rights like the polnish people and were were brutaly treated by polnish people and pogroms. thats well known and thats why the ukrain people hate you so much and to revenged them. Poland should be a kind of Swiss with the 3 great groups that wanted the allies at Versaill.
1. Name me ONE clear anti-german "pogrom" in 1919-1939 Poland.
2. Germans had 930 primary schools and 43 gymnasiums in interwar Poland!!! And political organisations like „Doutschtumsbund zur Wahrung der Minderheitsrechte in Polen” or „Doutsche Vereinigung im Sejm und Senat”,
@Gattamella Only some German foreign-financed schools could survive, like in Graudenz/Grudziadz. All universities were closed to members of the German Associations. Several anti-German pogroms happened in 1919 in Wielkopolska, and in 1921 in Silesia and 1938 and 1939 in Pomorze Voivodeship (West Prussia, Polish Corridor). I know this from Herbert Czaja who knew the situation. He was from Cieszyn.
@IustitiaPax - You know this from Herbert Czaja??? But just a sec before you said they were "well documented by Dutch, Swiss and Swedish experts"! Make up your mind you liar. Name me one "pogrom" in 1919, 1821 or 1938. Go on. Now I see you just repreat the convenient bullshit you want to believe in, with little factual knowledge.
All universities closed to Germans? Prove it... Minute before you and you friend claimed there were no schools/organisations. And it turned out to be bullshit too.
@RitterDesHimmels1 I told before ww2 and during ww2 of course polnish people fougth on every side, some fought with the germans, some fought with the russian or for the french and dutch, and der were many bills between the ukrain people and the polnish peoople that were no lies, You could it se in a reportage even on german televison. You just no your polnish nationalist propaganda from 1919-1939 and then from the communist , but thats is not the true history, it it is just a wish.
The slander. In 1939 the only complete madman would provoke so large superpower. Show me photos, you slanderer. Even you do not try , so that your slander be reliable. I am blind? Every is innocent, has till proofs of guilt. Where are photos? Where are films? The camera and the cine-camera are very old inventions. At that time were even multicoloured films.
@IustitiaPax Lies obviously, the Polish government wanted to expel people who participated in the Nazi crimes.
"massacres of tens of thousands of entirely defenseless ethnic Germans in August and September 1939" - only according to Goebbels.
Only 2 000 victims are documented. Not to mention that the saboteurs are not "entirely defenseless" or innocent people. Of course the disproportion is also important - in revenge for 300 Germans killed in Bromberg, Germans murdered 10 000 Poles in this area
@AZsaturn I never stated, that the SS (what SS, the Waffen-SS was a regular military unit and honourable) was fine or compassionate. the SD, RSHA and Allgemeine SS and Totenkopf-Divisions were indeed cruel at times against the subjected Polish nation. But Nazis never expelled 9 million Poles. Never. And Polish lethal victim statistics are very biased and incredible, as even Jaruzelski and IPN implicitly admitted in these last years. Truth is emerging slowly!
@IustitiaPax - Truth has emerged, Everyone knows Germans were mass-murdering Jews, Poles and Slavs. Noone wants to cooperate with Germany's expelees centre. The World will not buy fables of expelle victims made up by German Nazi murderes and their descendants.
@IustitiaPax - No. Nazis did not expel 9mln Poles. Only 2,5 mln. And send some 3 mln to labour camps, concentration camps and to forced labour in Germany.
"And Polish lethal victim statistics are very biased and incredible".
But your statistics reliable? For you, reliability is dependent by identity. Even you are not sure own numbers. Now you speak: "9 millions", another time: "14 millions". This isnt small oversight. Think as detective: Hitler would be absolutely harmless, but help to him by millions. They committed big crimes: Help for him by their work or pasive. No resistance. Jaruzelski was equivalent of Petain and comunist.
1. Sure they were Poles. Most of them. They are Poles now. Apart from tiny German minority around Oppeln there are no Germans here. And even those Grmans speak Polish at home at get assimilated. In 25 years there will be some 10 000 left at most.
2. Stolp was a Polish fief in 1390, start learning history. Stolp-Schlawe was as integral part of Poland between 1290-1308.
3. Lebus Land up till river Spree was Polish too, robbed by the Germans. As usual.
@Gattamella The Slavic-speaking minorities in Upper Silesia cannot be categorized clearly. Entire southern Upper Silesia including "pro-Polish bastion" Loslau still speak (partially) a Moravian Czech-Slavic dialect with German influences, whereas the archaic Polish speakers of Kreuzburg O.S./Kluczbork all descent from German colonists who were Polonized during the Counter-Reformation under Habsburg by Polish preaching and teaching clergy.
You repeat this nonsense second time... Seriously dude I got no clue where you got this Moravian-Loslau thing from, but no matter how often you repeat a lie, it will not become a fact. Read any article on Czech-Moravian linguistics.
Moravian dialects were spoken ONLY South of Ratibor and Leobschutz. Around Ostrava, Hulcin, Opava and Frydek-Mistek. These are the so calles laskie gwary heavily influenced by Silesian Polish. LOSLAU IS POLISH-SPEAKING, not Czech or Moravian
@IustitiaPax "in full agreement of the Polish nobility" - ohh believe me you are WRONG, in most cases they were threatened. Russian forces forced the Polish parliament to pass resolutions they demanded.
"Polish national awareness increased after 1791" - and what about the Bar Confederation - sometimes called the first Polish uprising.
@RitterDesHimmels1 In the Russian Empire maybe, as Russia of the tsars had been the mortal enemy of the Poles and Lithuanians for centuries of the Commonwealth. But all nobles in the Prussian and Austrian partitions cooperated peacefully, although under Napoleon some took up arms with the Freemason Tadeusz Kosciusko.
@IustitiaPax "nobles in the Prussian and Austrian partitions cooperated peacefully" - lies, lies, lies! that can`t be proved!!! Read diaries from this times many Poles were even forced to sell their houses after the first partition and move to central Poland because they hated Prussian state of frauds and exploiters!
@IustitiaPax The Russian Empire was the biggest and the strongest occupier so the resistance against Russia was stronger than the resistance against Austria and Prussia but during the Kościuszko Uprising Poles wanted to fight against the three occupiers in the same time.
"under Napoleon some took up arms with the Freemason Tadeusz Kosciusko." The Polish-American national hero Tadeusz Kościuszko never supported Napoleon because he didn`t trusted him.
@IustitiaPax "Poland-Lithuania was dissolved by monarchies and in full agreement of the Polish nobility in most cases. It was relatively peaceful," - Thats only a propaganda. It looks like you aren`t interested in truth at all. The Grodno Sejm was in presence of Russian garrison stationed in and around the New Castle and commanded by Russian ambassador to Poland, Jacob Sievers, to ensure the obedience of all deputies; dissidents were threaten with beatings, arrests, sequestration or exile.
@Gattamella 3. The Baltic Old Prussians did not destroy the indigenous culture anymore than the Baptism of Lithuania in 1386 destroyed Lithuanian culture. It christianized the Prussians, although the German, Flemish, Czech Teutonic Knights indeed were quite harsh in suppressing the Prussian tribal Uprisings in 1289 AD. Folklore remained very much, language remained until 1728 AD, but German settlement became the majority in the entirely rural Prussian lands.
@Gattamella You think that the Christianization of Baltic Old Prussia, the safety of Masovia and Poland from pagan invasions, was "disastrous"? This is just your personal anti-German bias, focussed on the Medieval multi-national Teutonic Knights, who had Ottokar II. Přemysl of Bohemia as their primary aide (after whom Königsberg was named in 1286 AD). Baltic Old Prussian language survived for five centuries until 1728 AD.
@IustitiaPax - no. this is not my personal bias. Prussia was Old Baltic land, grabbed by force and put to sword. This was not a German land before that. Germans came there as military occupiers.
@Gattamella Germans? No. Teutonic Knights. Germans, Czechs, Dutch, Flemings, Danish, Slovenians - all members of the militant Monks of the German Order of St. Mary's Hospital in Jerusalem. Of course Prussia was a conquered land and dominated by the Teutonic Order (not by "Germans" only though, Ottokar II. Přemysl was Czech). It was Christianized forcibly. Like my Saxon ancestors were by Charlemagne, who forced them to accept baptism. Widukind did so voluntarily.
@Gattamella Most Baltic folkore and language in fact was "destroyed" by massive Masurian (Polish) post-1410 immigration into present Masuria and by Lithuanian immigration into Lithuania Minor in eastern East Prussia. The Teutonic Knights were European tolerant but militant Catholics, not cultural Nazi Fascist Imperialist German nationalist warriors like Polish brainwashed paranoid cinema watchers still consider them.
Why are you lying Iustita? Silesia became part of Bohemian crown in 1348. And since then it also became part of the Holy Roman Empire. 1348.
Silesia was part of German empire since it was Bohemian fief since 1348, just like Lusatia, but it stemmed from one of the integral domains of the Kingdom of Poland. And Polish kings laid claims to it which even the Bohemian Kings recognised.
In 1146, High Duke Władysław II was driven into exile to Germany by his brothers, who took the province.
@Gattamella The Silesian duke Wladyslaw II the Exile in 1147 AD already accepted Silesia back as a fief from the Holy Roman Empire. All established. Poland was not a united state back then, but a loose union of Particularism. Already since 1327 AD the Silesian duchies came under Bohemia. There were no integral "domains of Poland" back then. Bohemian Kings recognized it? No. They never did. Poland never got Silesia.
Again. The Vandals an Rugii and their migrations are all well traced. All are mentioned in East Germany, then along Danube, then in Iberia and North Africa. And no Vandals/Silingi in Poland is only a hypothesis. A weak one. There is no consensus about the scientific character of Przeworsk culture.
@Gattamella I do not give a damn about what you think. Archeology firmly proves Magna Germania in entire modern Poland, with the exception of Podlasie Voivodeship and Ermland-Masuria. All the rest: Germanic settlement area. You want to create a myth of eternal Poland. I do not create a myth of eternal Germany. Germany did exist before 850 AD. Rugii are firmly proven. Vandals are too. Archeological facts. Despite Polish anti-propaganda.....Polskie straty kłamstwa!!
@IustitiaPax - Yes, Magna Germania ended on Vistula according to Ptolemy. But first one needs to understand what Magna Germania was. Seriously, whatever you say mate. And pls, dont use google translator coz your writing in Polish is incomprehensible.
@Gattamella It ended on the Pripjat Marshes, not on the Vistula at all. You will probably claim that Vandali, Lugii, Rugii, Silingii, Burgundes, Markomanni, Goths, Franks - tribes all based in modern Polish territory in 100 AD - were all "ancient Slavic tribes".... Sure. Again, I have no problem conceding, that large parts of now Germanic West Flanders, Brabant and Switzerland and South Tyrol were once Celtic or Gallo-Roman entirely, even up until Medieval times. But Poles fear historical truth!
@IustitiaPax ...sure, but before you go on claiming all that nonsense just please... go, and read Tacitus and Ptolemy, wii you? they are online... see what they wrote and how they wrote ;)
@IustitiaPax - Pripiat marshes is a 1930s theory of Nazi and SS-Ahnenerbe specialists like Kossina or Tackenberg. No modern scholar accepts it. Not only Polish, but Ukrainian, Russian and Lithuanian. It is a typical Germano-centric, German-made "alternative history" that functions only in Germany (and from there at times infests the Anglo-Saxon literature), parallel to other alternative versions popular in the countries in question.
@Gattamella Pripyat marshes is commonly accepted. Or should we now believe the Polish claims, that Rugii, Goths, Vandales, Silingii, Burgunds, Franks and Lugii were all forgotten "Slavic eternal tribes", who were made into Germanic tribes by neo-Nazi Medieval historians and Neo-Nazi modern archaeologists. One big conspiracy against Slavia Magna? One last word: Nazi colonization strategical hypothetical plans from Ahnenerbe were based on older science.
" Rugii, Goths, Vandales, Silingii, Burgunds"... It's all short-time entities. Up to a few generations. It is difficult to compare with the country of the millennium.
@IustitiaPax - What do you know about Silingi, Lugii and Goths? What do you know about archeological findings in question? What authors you refer to? For now you repeat some nonsensical propaganda, which has no acceptance whatsoever. Kostrzewski, Hensel, Gimbutas, Sedov, Terpilovsky... I can list you a dozen more specialists, each from the top shelf in their country. who disagree with almost every single point you said here.
@Gattamella Nazis used the cars of Ferdinand Porsche too? Does that mean that Volkswagen is not a car, but a neo-Nazi illusion from the 1949 British zone of occupation (BRD)? Mercedes Benz never existed? Heinrich Daimler was an illusion? No more than this is true, is it true, that the Pripyat Marsh border was "Nazi theory". It is common archeological consensus since centuries. Even today. Polish "science" and Communist propaganda is not taken seriously anywhere.
@AZsaturn Gattamella alleged that the Pripyat Marshes border of Sarmatian Proto-Slavic settlement around 250 AD is "Nazi theory". This is false. Porsche technology is not Nazi or false science either, just because the Nazi policy used his techniques. It is wrong to state that US missiles from 1955 are nonsense, because Wernher von Braun designed them. It is a well known fact, that modern Polish territory, was entirely Germanic-inhabited from 0-300 AD, except for Prussia.
@IustitiaPax - No. What you are saying is FALSE. Prove me that there is any consensus on Pripyat marshes theory! Which authors support it and who they are? And then tell me which of them also say Przeworsk and Wielbark culture were Germanic... I am waiting.
@Gattamella The Braunsberge-Willenberg Culture (Wielbark Culture) is firmly Germanic, and if you deny this, you are just to be pitied. You then repeat the Polish Pan-Slavic trash "archeology" (propaganda) of the Soviet era. Wielbark is Germanic and very coherent with all other founds, all accounts of the Antique authors and the borders of Magna Germania. You probably also think that Crimean Goths never existed and were in reality true Poles? All the world is Polish: from Urals to Cologne.
@IustitiaPax No. What you are saying is not true. Pripiyat Marsh was a 1930s German theory and it has never been a consensus. Never. Not 70 years ago and not today. Not in Poland, nor anywhere else in the East. In fact it has been abandoned altogether in favour of Kiev and Cherniahovsk culture. And anyway, the problem of Przeworsk culture is yet another question. You are spreading here an outdated 1930s German propaganda which is not a modern consensus. Read about Przeworsk/Wielbark cultures.
@Gattamella Anyway, despite your constant flood of Polish and Soviet-era lies from "science", it is clear, that on no territory of modern Poland, did any Slavic tribes live before 500 AD. This is a fact. That is all I wanted to say in my argumentation. You can have your Pripyat Marsh denial for yourself. Austrian archaeologists from 1910 are not "Nazis", nor are modern English archaeologists who confirm the same. Polish and Eastern European archeology is of little importance due to extreme bias.
"extreme bias"? Hahaha. Are you better? You praise Reich for the same activities that did Poland works. But in the case of Polish, slandering. Poland provoking Hitler? It's true. Shame. But Hitler had provoked the other. It's true. But this time is commendable. For you the glorious or infamy is dependent on the identity of the perpetrator.
@IustitiaPax You have fully right my friend we will to disenchant the myths and propaganda lies of the zionist and their polnish chess piece. the polnish tribe was a little tribe which subjected other slawisch and germnic people. It is also well known that Poland was a feudal tenure by the german emperor Otto.
Germanic Tribes lived also at the ground of russia/ukrain you could find till the middle of the 18 century an Ostrogoths accent at the Krim.
@Radagis2 It is a tragedy, that the Polish people allowed itself to be used as a chesspiece of western geopolitics (France, England, USA, NATO) for over two centuries. Today the anti-Russian missiles again.... The Polanie were indeed the core Polish tribe. Pomeranians and Silesians were West Slavic peoples like the Sorbs, not Poles. Otto III indeed crowned Boleslaw I, a tribal duke, to king of the Polans, as a vasal of the Holy Roman Empire.
No. You are wrong and mixing up Sorbs and Polabians. These were two different groups. Polabians and Pomeranians were not like Sorbs, which were an ethno-linguistic group of their own. In-between the Lechitic group and the Czechoslovak. Pomeranians and Polabians spoke a Lechitic language which was, in medieval ages, almost the same as Polish. In fact Polabians (Obodrites and Veleti) and Pomeranians came from Central Poland. Silesians were not a single tribe, but many.
@Gattamella Pomeranians were never Polish people. They were a nation of their own and mentioned as such by Thietmar von Merseburg. Who probably like all German historians was a "proto-Nazi"? Not? Krajna? Why Krajna if Pomerania was so "integrally Polish". Truth: Pomerania never was. Nor was the Wendland ever Polish.
Adjournment of belonging of Pomerania to Poland, occurred only after the betrayal of the Teutonic Knights. Casimir III the Great renounced his right to Silesia. But he never renounced his rights to Pomerania.
@AZsaturn The territory of the Prussian province of Pomerania (Pomerania-Schlawe, Pomerania-Stettin, Pomerania-Wolgast) was never under the Polish crown or a Polish reign. Gdansk Pomerania or Pomerelia is another question. The Pomeranian dynasty of the Griffins (Greifen) were never dependent on the Polish kings and as early as 1181 joined the Holy Roman Empire, after decades of German settlement and German monastical allegiance. The Teutonic Knights never influenced the 1815-1938 territory.
@Gattamella You pick and choose whatever you like. 979-1035 AD was the only time Pomerania was subjected by the Polish rulers. It was not Polish itself though, despite being Slavic. Between 1164 and 1180 AD the formal incorporation of the Pomeranian dukes and their lands into the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation was effected. 1185-1227 it was (illegally) occupied by Denmark, but returned to the German Empire. You blend out every fact you dislike. Polish chauvinism = Polish falsification.
@AZsaturn Stettin-Pomerania, Stolp-Pomerania etc. were all part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation by 1180. Definitively. But Pomerelia was still under the Polish Crown's protection. I admit that. You admit the other Pomeranian duchies were in the Holy Roman Empire? Or are you going on with denial?
I must admit that the name "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation" is a sign of great conceit. It seems there was no nationalism before the French Revolution. So the more the name is strange. Was it a state? How much rule was the Emperor? I think that a very loose confederation of dozens of very tiny states. The biggest claim to Szczecin Pomerania can have this small state, who took it.
@AZsaturn The Holy Roman Empire was dominated by the German people, but there was no ethnic exclusivist nationalism ever before the 18th century. Language diversity was cherished, Latin transcended all. The Holy Roman Empire was strong until 1556 AD, in fact, despite some internal skermishes.
@AZsaturn Silesia was and remained part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation since 1147 AD, not only since 1347 AD nor only since the Bohemian allegiance.
@IustitiaPax Teutonic Order were invaders and occupiers. They destroyed the Old Prussian culture and folklore, decimated the population and germanised the rest. Masurians came as free peasants to Prussia. Where do you get this "they loved Teutonic Order" propaganda crap from? What, did you ask them??? This is hilarious what you said. I dont say that Germans "loved Poland" so they settled in Polish cities in scores after XII-XIII century. They came there for economic reasons, new opportunities.
@Gattamella The Teutonic Order invaded at the request of the weak Polish duke Konrad I Mazowiecki. Old Prussia was never destroyed on purpose, but by uprisings. The Baltic Prussian language of the small (in numbers) Prussian population continued until 1728 AD and was never decimated or destroyed. Baltic Old Prussians were all assimilated, and words survived in East Prussian German and even Masurian Polish dialect. Masurians loved the Teutonic Order, like Danzig loved Polish kings.
@Gattamella Nikolaus Kopernikus, a Thorn ethnic German, loved and defended the Polish Crown. With the same fervour, Polish-speaking Masurians from 1410 loved the Teutonic Order and defended its lands against Lithuanian and Polish intruders always in all wars, like the Reiterkrieg. This is a well-known fact and continued until 1945. But Polish ethnic nationalists do not like these facts... Truth hurts. And it is hard to abandon the Germanophobe 19th century "Teutonic Knight" propaganda.
@Gattamella Nikolaus Copernicus was an ethnic German entirely. And the von Watzenrode noble family was ethnic German too and not ethnic Polish. Thorn was entirely ethnic German back then. And still as a Polish royal subject, the German Nikolaus Kopernikus fought the Teutonic Order's claims. As did the 90 % German-speaking (5 % Polish, 5 % Old Prussian) bishopric of the Ermland under Bp. Lukas von Watzenrode.
@IustitiaPax How do you know the Kopernik family were Germans? And Watzenrodes were related to Polish nobility. This is an old story. Kopernik was not 100% German ethnically.
@Gattamella Koppernigk family had a Middle German name and were from a German Kraków merchant family originally. The Watzenrode family was entirely of ethnic German nobility, even imperial: from Weizenrodau (Pszenno) in Lower Silesia. Of course Bishop Tiedemann Giese (also a relative) was ethnic German and also pro-Polish subject. 100 % ethnic German. The Haller de Hallenburg family was also 100 % ethnic German until 1718, when Polish intermarriage started in Kraków.
@Gattamella Kopernikus was ethnic German and politically Polish. Let's keep it that way. That corresponds to truth. All his ancestry were ethnic German, both from Kraków, Thorn, Weizenrodau/Silesia and from Unna (Westphalia). It is very clear. Even if Polish Hagiography would not like it.
Indeed, the general Józef Haller was German. He recovered for Poland Pomerania and made marriage. What a irony. Watzenrode was a family of the mother of Copernicus. Grandmammas of many inhabitants of present Gdańsk Pomerania had similar surnames. If you lean the argument about Copernicus on the ground sounds of his name, in such case Klaus Kiński was 100% Pole. On what do I lean my argument? I will imitate your reasoning. Klaus Kiński was Pole.
@AZsaturn Kopernikus was entirely ethnic German, always wrote in German and Latin, never in Polish. I did not say he was a German citizen. He was a Polish subject. You just cannot bear the facts. Haller de Hallenburg was a Pole, and his family had been polonized by intermarriage since 1718 in Kraków. Most Catholic ethnic Germans assimilated into Polishness quickly in the 19th century....
Szczecin Pomerania probably was not a part of the Poland. Only homage. This indicates the ease of detachment and almost no attempts to recover. Gdańsk Pomerania is a separate issue. The title of lord this land, held Piast since time immemorial. Casimir III the Great renounced his right to Silesia, because he could not afford a war on two fronts. But Gdańsk Pomerania was too precious.
@AZsaturn Finally. You admit that Stettin-Pomerania, Wolgast-Pomerania, Köslin-Pomerania, Schlawe-Pomerania and Stolp-Pomerania never were subjects of Poland. Of course Pomerelia (Danzig Pomerania or West Prussia) was long for centuries paying hommage to Poland. Still Kashubians had separate identity and dynasty. And the Krajna is not called border land for nothing: it separated core, true Poland from Pomeranian duchies which were neighbouring tribal states, not subjects.
I said that probably only about Szczecin Pomerania was a feudal tribute. Because it indicates the conditions, which were easy to tear and a slight attempt to recover. Gdansk Pomerania was more valuable because of the end of the Vistula. River that flowed through most of the major Polish cities. Piasts chose more importantly, because they had no funds for more. The loss of Silesia to the Casimir the Great was nothing compared with Gdansk.
1. West Pomerania up to Szczecin was subjugated to Mieszko I, Boleslaw Chrobry from 967 until 1025. Chrobry founded a bishopcy in Kołobrzeg. It later got independent during the reign of Chrobry's son, Mieszko II.
2. West Pomerania was again re-conquered by Wrymouth and was a Polish fief in 1121-1181
3.Stolp-Pomerania was integral part of Poland in 1290-1308 and a Polish fief between 1390-1478.
@Gattamella 1. Who missionized Pomerania? Otto of Bamberg, a German bishop. And German monks. Boleslaw I subjected Pomerania as a foreign nation, like Germany in 1940 subjected Belgium. These few decades do not mean integration into the Polish state. 2. From 1163 AD Pomerania was under the Holy Roman Empire. Not inside Poland. 3. Stolp-Pomerania had only dynastic contacts with Poland, it was an autonomous part like Ermland and Ducal Prussia were.
@AZsaturn Pomerelia (Pomorskie) was not Pomerania proper; that is why you Poles call it Gdansk Pomerania often. Pomerania proper was never under Polish hegemony, but controlled by the Greifen (Griffin) dynasty until 1647, inside the Holy Roman Empire since 1181 AD. West Prussia, Pomerelia or Prussia of the Royal Partition was under other dukes, closer to the Polish ruling dynasty. Still, from 1410-1466, the partially ethnic German region was governed by the Teutonic Knights.
@IustitiaPax - no. Pomerelia was ruled by Teutens between 1308-1466. And no it was not "partially ethnic German region" by that time. By no means. Only Vistulean cities like Gdansk and Tczew started becoming German. And that was after some of former Gdansk citizens were slaughtered by the invading Germans in 1308.
@Gattamella Marienwerder, Danzig, Konitz, Schlochau, Marienburg were all part of Pomerelia, which already back then had a firm German majority, far larger than the equal mix population the 1800s, after Catholic Polonization of most Germans there. Dirschau in fact had the fewest Germans of all cities. Danzig's Massacre of 1308 was committed by the multi-ethnic Teutonic Order (Germans, Dutchmen, Czechs, Masurians) against city population which was ethnic German, and against Kashubian nobility.
Do you know the full and official name of the Teutonic Knights? This is your bias: the Teutonic Knights slaughter of Gdansk: Nothing special. If hyphotetical Teutonic Knights were Poles, then this would be a thousand more heinous. Can you compare this with the party that the Soviets were arranged after the conquest of Gdańsk? For you, the power of shame of crime depends on the identity of the perpetrator.
@AZsaturn There were numerous Polish nobles inside the Teutonic Knights. Disenchanted Catholic sons of Polish nobility who joined the Masurians in the Monastic State of Prussia. Ethnic nationalism did not exist back then. Most Polish officers back then were German nobles in service of the Polish king. Face reality, chap. The Danzig massacre was not nationalist, but just a royal and territorial dispute.
So Gdańsk before the invasion of the Teutonic was the center paganism? I doubt it. It was about money! Whoever controlled the end of the Vistula River, was rich. You will be merciful to condemn this massacre as honestly as you condemn the massacre of Gdansk in 1945? Really, you need to know what was the total and the official name of the Teutonic Knights.
@AZsaturn I know the Teutonic Order invasion of Danzig was about power. I admit that. I am not defending every act of the Teutonic Knights. This is some weird other nationalist 19th century obsession of Polish chauvinists: identifying the multi-ethnic Teutonic Order with "Germany and Prussia", and claiming Germans would justify every Teutonic act. Of course not. I do not like the 1525 POLISH-facilitated Lutheran apostasy-secularization either!
From the time of the nineteenth century, the Poles called the Kingdom of Prussia "Krzyżacy". The reason was that the Teutonic Knights were the nucleus of this glutton. Nucleus, which has developed very slowly. Today is a very rarely used insult. If a Pole say to you: "Ty Krzyżaku", know that this is an insult. Comparison to the great scoundrels.
@AZsaturn The Polish lies about the Teutonic Order are based on 19th century Nationalist myths. Henryk Sienkiewicz sadly also has a lot of anti-German bias in his work Krzyżacy (1900). But this is not objective historiography. The Teutonic Order was loved by the Polish-speaking Masurians since 1410 AD, when the Masurians settled Masuria, which before had been for two centuries German-speaking with some Prussian Baltic language pockets.
Don't tell "lies", because you know full well and official name of the Teutonic Knights. Stubbornly refuse to quote. The French Foreign Legion contains very few French (only the highest officers). But there is a reason for the name of which includes: "French." On behalf of Henryk Sienkiewicz, I humbly apologize for the way he wrote about the Teutonic Knights. But it is not bad, when compared to the propaganda by the Teutonic Knights , that 400 year old catholic country is a pagan.
@AZsaturn Deutsch in 1220 meant only "folkish" (völkisch, of the people) in German language, it did not mean Germania. The Teutonic Knights never stated that Poland was "pagan". Never. Their conflicts were on other issues. Poland broke its promises, its vows and the cession of lands like the Kulmer Land, granted to the Teutonic Order by Konrad of Masovia.
@IustitiaPax - Poland broke no promises, and there as never been any cession of Kulmer Land. It was granted as a fief to the Knights, with Konrard the Duke of Masovia retaining the ownership. The Order forged the documents. Anyway, the Order invaded Kuiavia, Dobrzynska Ziemia. Read the stuff and stop telling your fables of good Germans and bad Poles.
And since you approve of auto-determination, then you got to accept the fact that over 40% Upper Silesians did not want to stay in the Prussia.
Hallo: Danke für das Video, ich habe es erst heute entdeckt. Aus keiner Universität der Welt sind soviele Nobelpreisträger hervorgegangen wie aus Breslau. Polnische Einflüsse im positiven Sinne in dieser Zeit bis 1945 leider Fehlanzeige. Mit der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus den von Ihnen kultivierten Gebieten begann eine Zeit des wirtschaftlichen und kulturellen Abstiegs. Jetzt geht es wieder aufwärts, durch deutsche Gelder von der EU. Der größte Raub wird nicht bestraft. Glück auf Schlesien.
HorstAlfons 3 months ago
Comment removed
poper0069 1 year ago
Das bla bla ist ja schön aber tatsahen sind tatsahen, oh kein pole dabei!!!!
700 Jahre schlesisische geschichte, My family!!!
poper0069 1 year ago
@poper0069
ja genau tatsahen... super rechtschreibung
ohne sobieski wäre euer scheiß deutschland schon längst islamisiert
aber das wird in diesem jahrzehnt noch passieren
norbertnashorn87 3 weeks ago
The firs anti-German uprising of Silesians took place in 1919. The reasons were"
- The uprising of Silesian workers in Rosenburg in June, put down by German police.
- The Myslovitz massacre. When German Grenzschutzu opened fire on 3000 demonstrating miners from the "Mysłowice mine" and their families, killing 7 men, two women and a boy.
- The August repressions by Oberschlesisches Freiwilligen-Korps, and mass redundancies in mines like "Lithandra" or "Prinzengrube",
Gattamella 1 year ago
In 1919, after Germany's defeat, Berlin revolution and collapse of German administraion in every Upper Silesian district Polish-speaking people organised "people's councils" with the "Superem People's Council" in Beuthen and "Polnische Arbeits Vereinigung" with 200 000 members...
To those spontaneous forms of Silesian-Polish public life in1919 Germans responded with arrests, beatings and terror by paramilitary organisations like "Oberschlesisches Freiwilligen-Korps".
Gattamella 1 year ago
Nice song, by the way. Pity that some time after 1871, Prussian nationalists started labelling everything as "German" as if they wanted to mask reality. This nationalism was a failed attempt to bind the people together. By 1921 some 40% Upper Silesians and 47% of those who lived in Silesia, had enough of the farse.
Gattamella 1 year ago
No only "Deutshe Vereinigung" - EVERY REGION had its own German organisation. Jungdeutsche Partei (teren całej Polski), Deutsche Vereinigung (Pomorze. Poznańskie), Deutscher Volksbund (Śląsk). I will send you a link...
Gattamella 1 year ago
Holy crap! If an average German nationalist or, as a matter of fact, an average German has the level of historical knowledge you got, Radagis2, then Germany should seeeeriously revise its educational system.
Gattamella 1 year ago
I ma not denying the multiethnic character of the Ist Republic. This was perfect. However, later after occupation of Silesia, Greater Poland and Pomerania, Pussia abused its status and embraked on germanisation. This alienated people and so many voted for Poland in Silesia. Germany later would never accept that decision.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Silesia was never part of the 1st Republic. Never. Nor was most of Pomerania (excl. Pomerelia).
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - Silesia was not in the 1st Republic but the X-XII century Kingdom of Poland. Then in XII-XIV it was independent. Later part of Bohemian Crown. Pomerania-Stolp was a Polish fief in XV century.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Silesia was never part of a unified Polish state. After 1164 AD, Poland fell into Particularism and separation. In 1147 AD, Wladyslaw II the Exiled had taken Silesia as a fief from Holy Roman Emperor. They did not marry German princesses in vain. Poland was a tribal confederative state before 1386 AD, not to be compared to a modern centralized republic or the 12th century kingdom of Saxony (which was united and controlled). Pomerania-Stolp had been independent before XV century.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - So what? Stolp was part of Gdansk Pomerelia until 1308 and was a fief of Poland for 80 years. Silesia was Polish since X century until mid XII century. Lated independent. In 1147 Silesia did not become part of the Empire. You are wrong sorry :)
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Pomerania-Stolp was only very temporarily (around 1409). It was a particularist Duchy from the once united Duchy of Pomerania which had subjected to the Holy Roman Empire in 1181 AD already. The alliance with Poland does not mean it was a "fief of Poland". This is false. In 1455 Eric II of Pomerania-Stolp-Wolgast received the Lauenburg and Bütow lands from the Polish king. In 1466 the Polish king sacked Stolp. Weird to sack your own "fief" not?
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - Pomerania Stolp was a FIEF of Poland since 1390 when Wratislaw took oath of allegiance to Jagiello until 1478, when it was joined to other Pomeranian duchies.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Your Polish "historians" do not know the difference between a political alliance and being a fief. Pomerania-Stolp was never a fief and never a property of Poland. It was entirely independent and a part of the Holy Roman Empire historically, but it allied with the Polish king indeed in that year. Finland was not a "fief" of Germany either in WW2, nor was Slovakia in WW2. They were allies of Germany, not fiefs.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Possible is sack of the fief. If one can hold the more precious region. And the fief is refractory. Klaus Kiński was Pole.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The First Republic is simply the Polish Kingdom and Grand Duchy of Lithuania with changed name. Silesia was so long a part of Poland as long as Kazimierz III Great relinquish rights to Silesia. He did not have the choice. Gdańsk Pomerania was more precious.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
Pope renounceed the principate of Cracow in 1179. Then Silesia became and INDEPENDENT domain. Then one by one, Silesian dukes started becoming vasslas of Czech or Germans kings/emperors.
But only in 1339 when Kazimierz the Great renounced his rights to Silesia, German emperor, Ludwig von Wittelsbach, issued an edict establishing one Duchy of Silesia ("Duacatus Silesaie") with himself as its supreme duke, did Silesia formally ceased to be part of Poland.
Gattamella 1 year ago
Yes they did, and that was the subject of a disupute between Kazimierz the Great and John Luxembourg. Silesia was de iure a part of Regnum Poloniae. Regunum Poloniae had a senioral-principal system where dukes of Cracow were supreme. Some Silesian dukes paid tribute to Germany but so did some other Polish dukes - and that does not mean Poland was "German Empire". Wrymouth's father paid tribute to Germany but Poland was not part of the empire. You are confusing tributary relation with annexion.
Gattamella 1 year ago
1. Poland was not peacefully dissolved but was subjugated after a war against Russia and Prussia, and later after a failed an uprising in 1794. People were executed for betrayal, and there was civil war. It was not peaceful.
2. The law was granted to the new settlement, but show me it had German majority prior to 1308 - what you said before.
3. Look. I dont care whose invitation it was. The truth is that they destroyed the indigenous culture, folklore and language. Effect was disastrous.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella 1. Poland-Lithuania was dissolved by monarchies and in full agreement of the Polish nobility in most cases. It was relatively peaceful, though Polish national awareness increased after 1791 and its constitution proclamation. 2. There was no other town in Danzig than the German town which received town law in 1223 from Swantopolk II. Do not deny these historical facts please. It makes you look silly. A German town is a German town in 1308, when Ostsiedlung was at its highest peak.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Yes, 100% true. Gdańsk was German town. But geographical reason: Outside Reich. Poland never sold Gdańsk. Poland never gave Gdańsk as the present. This is the fact. Please, do not negate to the truth.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Auto-determination. If the Wielkopolska Poles could rise up in 1919 and secede, so could Danzig in 1939, when it wanted to rejoin the German fatherland. If Wilno could join Poland in 1923, then Danzig could join Germany. But you use two standards, one anti-German standard for Germans and one extremely opportunistic standard for Polish enterprises.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I never praised the Poles from Vilnius for secession. On the contrary. No city has no right to declare secession without asking the opinion of the rest of the state. Especially that Vilnius is the most important place in the heart of every Lithuanian. Capital city always been. Place the first heads of the Lithuanian state.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I'm not using two standards. I use only one: Every country is a legal person. Each legal person has his legal representatives. Representatives of the legal person shall assume all rights, liabilities and debts of the legal person. A legal person, which was the Second Reich had an enormous debt to the legal person which was the Second Republic. It's my only standard.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Before Mikołaj Rej and Jan Kochanowski, people knowing to write, seldom used Polish languace. If Copernicus was German in such case 100% Poles they are or were:
-Klaus Kiński
-Wachowski Brothers
-Piotr Tchaikovsky
-Robert Pinski
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn - good point! following that reasoning all Polish-speaking Germans from Silesia are... Poles. Which in fact they are haha ;)
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella They were no Poles they are were to occupy by polnish and were forced to be polnish, to speak German was forbidden and hard punshed in your crime country. The british called Poland from 1919-1939 "Schurkenstaat". only when the british needed you as a war reason against germany there was a changing, Poland was a willing pawn sacrifice, can you read by Curchill or Ian Kershaw. Kennedy said poland was guilty for ww2 but thats were not fair you were used by zionist interessts.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Radagis2 John F. Kennedy stated that Poland was the solely guilty part for WW2. This is not true. The Entente abused historical Polish extreme nationalism and Polish militarism of the Colonels' regime under Józef Beck, which until 1938 had been relatively friendly with Germany.... Poland indeed was abused. Polish nationalism was ill-guided, as it attacked another European opponent of Communism: Hitler Germany. They proved more Germanophobe than anti-Communist unfortunately.....
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax poland was never friendly since 1919 to the germans they were bruatly forced to be polnish like the ukrain and other people to many were prisoned and died in polnish kz. Over 800K Germans to fled in the the 20. from the polnish terror. They torpedoed democratic efforts during weimarer republic. Hitler was the first german leader which had negotiations wirh poland and accepted at first german cancelor the new polnish borders except he only wanted a voting about danzig and transit.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Radagis2 I know that between 1919 until 1926, the state of Poland harassed the Germans, in 1929 German owners were expropriated without compensation, I all know this. And in 1933, Pilsudski wanted France and Britain to help him defeat Nazi Germany and invade it. But from 1934-1938 relations were quite good, even cordial from 1934-36. The Entente-orientation of Poland indeed made the Polish authorities arrogant and more violent internally. Hitler indeed was not a Polonophobe at all.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
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@IustitiaPax
"in 1929 German owners were expropriated without compensation".
Slander. Show me proofs. Without proofs, one ought to suppose that simply they abandoned houses, because did not please to them the return of the legal ruler.
"Hitler indeed was not a Polonophobe at all." Indeed, indeed. I heard the gossip that Hitler had said that if his people were such as Polish soldiers, he would be able to master with the world. He would not be able to. King of losers.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax One of the biggest murders of the Polish nation Adolf Hitler was not a Polonophobe? To be honest I partly agree with you but only until 1939. Than after the Great Britain promised to help Poles when Germany would invade Poland. Hitler saw that his life dreams to conquer eastern Europe were shattered.
Piłsudski wanted to lunch together with France a preventive attack on the third Reich because he knew that the German nationalism was a threat - now we see he was right.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 The Polish leadership is to be blamed for WW2 entirely along with Britain and France. If you think "German nationalism was threat", then why would the Polish regime after 1937 start encircling Germany with a British-French alliance. Do you encircle a bear in the wood? No, you keep a respectful distance and the bear will respect you. Piłsudski in 1935 saw he had been wrong in 1933 on Germany, that is why he was poisoned.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax "Do you encircle a bear in the wood?" - you seek people that would be able to help you.
Piłsudski was not wrong in 1933. Even after that year he said: around the year 1938 Poland will by attacked by Germany or USSR. He was not poisoned, it is only another lie.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - "The Polish leadership is to be blamed for WW2 entirely along with Britain and France." Sure. Everyone is guilty but not poor Germany. Not in 1914, 1939, 1940 or 1941. Never. A typical German "alternative history". You are a simple neonazi apologete. Sorry but not even the most extreme revisionists and apologetists deny the fact of Nazi-orchestrated mass-murder and genocide. The "bear" never respected its neighbours right from its defeat in 1918. The bear's only aim was revange.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
What a insolence. What a manipulation. Even you do not try, so that your slander sound reliably. Polish government did not infringe the balance of power. Nobody from behind Reich transformed her into the superpower, clever to the conquest of the almost all continent. Not counting creditors.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
A saint and natural right is the treat of precautions, if the neighbour is transformed into the superpower. More powerful than France, Great Britain and Poland together taken. There must be the balance of power at any cost. The balance of power did not allow to the III World War.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Germany from 1939 and until 1941 remained far weaker than both Poland-France-Britain combined and than the USSR alone in 1941. Of course Germany had military genius. That is why they won the Polish Campaign against the odds. And because of the Westwall and French passivity..... The "weaker Polish Army" is a myth. As are the "Polish cavallery against German tanks". Germany had very few tanks in fact in 1939-40. Even the Benelux countries invasion was mainly with horses - FACTS!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
You did not see photos of Hitler against the background of the Eiffel Tower ? The shocking proof how many errors committed Allies. Reich infringed the balance of power. This is FACT. Every who has a neighbour who infringed the balance of power, has the right take steps the prudence. Reich did not hide plans of the enlargement of its own borders. Lebensraum.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The French population did not want to fight. Now they suffer from the Vichy syndrom of dementia, but from 1940-44 they all supported Pétain (who was chosen by the French parliament), only few supported Charles de Gaulle (who was a brave, but revenge-driven chauvinist and anti-cooperationist). Some French officers in the Vichy French colonies also sympathized with De Gaulle. Again, France lost due to Blitzkrieg. French armament was stronger, French tanks were more numerous. A fact.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
French tanks had a potential to massacring Wehrmacht. Which had then many light tanks. Light tanks often did not have a guns, but rifles. But the most French tanks were not there equipped the radio! The tank without the radio is an useless toy. The practice showed, who appeared more threatening. Even after the connection of powers with British people. One may not to forgive the infringements of the balances of power. Luftwaffe humiliated France and Britain trouble-free. A fact.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Lebensraum in France? Nonsense. Alsace-Lorraine were not "Lebensraum", but ancient German-speaking territories, although since 1945 like Luxembourg they have gradually been turned away from "Prussia" and are more oriented to France and Francophonization, destroying ancient Alamannic German dialects in the process. Germany could not infringe the balance, was it remained far weaker than the Entente in 1939-43.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Hitler would prevail, if planned the attack on USSR so, so that do not catch up winter. Only the English Channel rescued Britain. With the modest help of the Squadron 303. The practice showed that Reich had been a superpower whose the world did not see from times of the Napoleon. Even more powerful than Napoleon.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The UK received all USA aid it needed, long before Lend Lease Agreement. You always fail to ask yourself, why Roosevelt and Churchill never declared war upon the USSR after its invasion and occupation of Poland? Read Finnish intelligence officer Erkki Hautamäki and his books, like Suomi myrskyn silmässä, 2005 (Swedish: Finland i stormens öga, 2004). The UK and USA had long divided the world. And even anti-Nazi Crown Prince Otto von Habsburg said Eleanor Roosevelt was a Communist lady!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - although under Napoleon some took up arms with the Freemason Tadeusz Kosciusko".... dude... please, you again talk nonsense. Nobles were forced to cooperate or be stripped from estates. Those who opposed were.
Prussia dismantled Poland but was too weak to keep it that way on her own. And no, Prussia did not cooperate and was not liberal like Austria. Prussia was nationalist. After 100 years of occupation + germanisation she had to pay the price for her crime
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Because the idea of the isolationism was still very strong in the American society. The war against USSR would be contradictory with business of the Uncle San. Think what would be if Reich prevailed. A dozen or so years later, intercontinental rockets in West Europe. Unnecessary Amerika Bomber.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Poland had a poor air defence. A few bombers it did not determine the threat, because nobody was a competition for Luftwaffe. The fleet microscopic. Reich tanks incurred losses, because this were mostly light tanks. Battles in which Poles gave Reich substantial losses, decided the geography, the courage and the quantity of the ammunition. In the East, Wehrmacht was destroy by General Winter. In the West, the sonar.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The German Luftwaffe was not strong in 1939 either, although they used the newest tactics and technology. The German Wehrmacht was still like in 1931, when Poland could have easily overrun Germany again.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
"1931, when Poland could have easily overrun Germany again."
Again? I do not remember, so that Reich any time allegedly to throw on her knees by Poland. Before Battle of Britain, nobody was a threat for Luftwafe. This is FACT.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@Radagis2
Do not dally. The second Republic was smaller than the First Republic. Reich kept the part of booties which took during the partitioning: Warmia and small pieces of Wielkopolska. Together greater than Autonomous Silesian Voivodship. Bills was strongly not even. Today bills are even. Vassals do not dictate conditions to the head of state.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
If you praise Reich for the treat of precautions, then you have not the right to slander other for the treat of precautions. All has her own reason. A reason of the war was the incalculable voracity of Prussia. Their incalculable conceit and "the living space".
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn - Iustita, is a cunning pro-Nazi. He is hiding it, but his comments and spam-slogans reveal it. Probably a descendant of Silesian Germans born in the Netherlands. He's trying to divide the Polabians, Silesians and Pomeranians and even Kashubians and separate them from the other Poles, yet he is talking of Pommersch-Prussian Germans and Austrians as of one nation. I bet he even regards the Dutch as Germans.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Radagis2 The western press called Poland a rogue state at various times in the Interbellum era. Mainly in 1921 during the Silesian Uprisings by Polish extremists, but also in 1938, when Józef Beck decided to annex Zaolzie from the dissolving artificial state of Czechoslovakia, as well to expell Jews from office and from Polish territory. I have Dutch newspapers documenting it all. My grandparents' neighbours until 1942 (hiding after) were Moscowicz, fled from Poland in 1937.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The slander. Your slander are already proverbial. On the eve of the war, Poland had a highest percentage of Jews in Europe. Because nowhere they feels so safely and was within an inch of from Reich were they treated in which worse than rats. All has own reason. Polands Silesia during the Second Republic was microscopical to taking by Prussia of Wielkopolska and Pomerania.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn - Iustitia bias is striking. First he failed even to understand that 480 000 Upper Silesians voted for Poland. 40% of the population. A population in which Polish-speakers constituted some 57%.
Yet he will talk of Germans in Pomerelia even though they were minority and it was a Polish domain for centuries. This is a hopeless case. The fellow is completely blind to German mass-murder. He totally fails to understand that Nazis commited the greatest crime in the history of humanity.
Gattamella 1 year ago
The old Polish proverb speaks: You "take over character traits of people with which you exist". Poles who survived the war, spent six years with officials SS. SS rooted out from us the compassion. If Great Britishers already earlier planned the attack, what held back their? What for did they have to wait till Hitler will become themselves with the most powerful individual in the world? Several years earlier, this rotter would not have chances. This is the vulnerability of Your reasoning.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The expulsion was contemplated in 1939 already. The Poznan newspapers claimed, that the Polish Army in August 1939 would march into Berlin. The ruthless mentality of Polish officials was made clear in the massacres of tens of thousands of entirely defenceless ethnic Germans in August and September 1939 by Polish Army and Polish Police. All documented, even by Dutch and Swiss and Swedish investigators! You are blind to Polish crimes.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
1. What massacres in August and September 1939? There were no massacres of 10s of 1000s Germans. Prove it if they are so well documented. Afaik the Germans made them all up to excuse their invasion and mass-murder.
2. There was no expropriation of Germans. In 28 XII 1925 the parlimant passed a law by which it would BUY OFF land from estates over 180 ha at market price, and parcel it among the farmers. There was no ethnic-bias in that law. You are lying yet again.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Dutch, Swiss and Swedish investigators? Said what? When??? There was no murder of Germans in Poland in August 1939. There were Bromberg riots in September 1939. Germans took arms against withdrawing Polish troops, shooting at them from the windows. German Vth column and the treachery of German minority in Poland is a well known fact. During occupations German minority was the first one to help the Gestapo hunt down Polish elites in the Intelligenzaktion, and first to steal property
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Thats just polnish propaganda well known like the most of polnish history.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Radagis2 - thats just the truth and your lack of arguments only confirms the fact that German propaganda can't hold a decent scrutiny. German hardcore nationalists are only good in repeating cheap cliche slogans they were made to believe in, like trained parrots. Once they are exposed to facts, figures and sources they stick their heads in the sand.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Good joke little boy dream on.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Radagis2 - Sure, but this is no argument and lack of arguments will not excuse years of mass-murder, rape, genocide and German pillaging. Sorry.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Yes you have right poland crime state from 1919-1939, murder of many ukrain and german people, raping, mortgage repossession, brutaly banishment, prisoned in first kz of european ground, forced to be polnish, forbidden their to speak their native languages. war with all neigbours, permanent agitation against germany. War planes against Germany before Hitler came to power, bulkheading of east prussia, highest illiteracy rate that was the great poland before WW2 was started
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Radagis2 - LOOOOL!!!!! 1919-1939 was no murder of Germans or Ukrainians. History knows of no such thing. Germans had their own minority organisations, schools, bunds and politicians. Get a new brain buddy. Germans never accepted Polish independence so they started mass-murder, rape and genocide. Which lasted for 5 years and was the worst crime ever commited! The funniest thing is that they well know what they did, but now to try pose as victims. You reap you sow. Mass-murder started 1939.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella haha the crimes against german ukrain and other people are well known, ever your british master äh friends calle poland "Schurkenstaat" read for example Ian Kershaw or what Kenedy said he told poland was guilty for ww2 but that were not fair because your crime government to delivered just the war reason for Britain. Read yor well known polnish historian he said the truth to your people but you want just life in your victim myth.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Gattamella What you said is not true the german and ukrain people had der own schools before they came under the polnish control, polnish government closed school and banned from university too, they had not the same rights like the polnish people and were were brutaly treated by polnish people and pogroms. thats well known and thats why the ukrain people hate you so much and to revenged them. Poland should be a kind of Swiss with the 3 great groups that wanted the allies at Versaill.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Radagis2 Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND????
1. Name me ONE clear anti-german "pogrom" in 1919-1939 Poland.
2. Germans had 930 primary schools and 43 gymnasiums in interwar Poland!!! And political organisations like „Doutschtumsbund zur Wahrung der Minderheitsrechte in Polen” or „Doutsche Vereinigung im Sejm und Senat”,
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Only some German foreign-financed schools could survive, like in Graudenz/Grudziadz. All universities were closed to members of the German Associations. Several anti-German pogroms happened in 1919 in Wielkopolska, and in 1921 in Silesia and 1938 and 1939 in Pomorze Voivodeship (West Prussia, Polish Corridor). I know this from Herbert Czaja who knew the situation. He was from Cieszyn.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - You know this from Herbert Czaja??? But just a sec before you said they were "well documented by Dutch, Swiss and Swedish experts"! Make up your mind you liar. Name me one "pogrom" in 1919, 1821 or 1938. Go on. Now I see you just repreat the convenient bullshit you want to believe in, with little factual knowledge.
All universities closed to Germans? Prove it... Minute before you and you friend claimed there were no schools/organisations. And it turned out to be bullshit too.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Where are photos of your imaginary antigerman pogroms before 1939?
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@Radagis2 There were no murders of innocent Ukrainians in II RP - so stop telling lies.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 I told before ww2 and during ww2 of course polnish people fougth on every side, some fought with the germans, some fought with the russian or for the french and dutch, and der were many bills between the ukrain people and the polnish peoople that were no lies, You could it se in a reportage even on german televison. You just no your polnish nationalist propaganda from 1919-1939 and then from the communist , but thats is not the true history, it it is just a wish.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The slander. In 1939 the only complete madman would provoke so large superpower. Show me photos, you slanderer. Even you do not try , so that your slander be reliable. I am blind? Every is innocent, has till proofs of guilt. Where are photos? Where are films? The camera and the cine-camera are very old inventions. At that time were even multicoloured films.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Lies obviously, the Polish government wanted to expel people who participated in the Nazi crimes.
"massacres of tens of thousands of entirely defenseless ethnic Germans in August and September 1939" - only according to Goebbels.
Only 2 000 victims are documented. Not to mention that the saboteurs are not "entirely defenseless" or innocent people. Of course the disproportion is also important - in revenge for 300 Germans killed in Bromberg, Germans murdered 10 000 Poles in this area
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@AZsaturn I never stated, that the SS (what SS, the Waffen-SS was a regular military unit and honourable) was fine or compassionate. the SD, RSHA and Allgemeine SS and Totenkopf-Divisions were indeed cruel at times against the subjected Polish nation. But Nazis never expelled 9 million Poles. Never. And Polish lethal victim statistics are very biased and incredible, as even Jaruzelski and IPN implicitly admitted in these last years. Truth is emerging slowly!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - Truth has emerged, Everyone knows Germans were mass-murdering Jews, Poles and Slavs. Noone wants to cooperate with Germany's expelees centre. The World will not buy fables of expelle victims made up by German Nazi murderes and their descendants.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - No. Nazis did not expel 9mln Poles. Only 2,5 mln. And send some 3 mln to labour camps, concentration camps and to forced labour in Germany.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
"And Polish lethal victim statistics are very biased and incredible".
But your statistics reliable? For you, reliability is dependent by identity. Even you are not sure own numbers. Now you speak: "9 millions", another time: "14 millions". This isnt small oversight. Think as detective: Hitler would be absolutely harmless, but help to him by millions. They committed big crimes: Help for him by their work or pasive. No resistance. Jaruzelski was equivalent of Petain and comunist.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@Radagis2 -
1. Sure they were Poles. Most of them. They are Poles now. Apart from tiny German minority around Oppeln there are no Germans here. And even those Grmans speak Polish at home at get assimilated. In 25 years there will be some 10 000 left at most.
2. Stolp was a Polish fief in 1390, start learning history. Stolp-Schlawe was as integral part of Poland between 1290-1308.
3. Lebus Land up till river Spree was Polish too, robbed by the Germans. As usual.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella The Slavic-speaking minorities in Upper Silesia cannot be categorized clearly. Entire southern Upper Silesia including "pro-Polish bastion" Loslau still speak (partially) a Moravian Czech-Slavic dialect with German influences, whereas the archaic Polish speakers of Kreuzburg O.S./Kluczbork all descent from German colonists who were Polonized during the Counter-Reformation under Habsburg by Polish preaching and teaching clergy.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
You repeat this nonsense second time... Seriously dude I got no clue where you got this Moravian-Loslau thing from, but no matter how often you repeat a lie, it will not become a fact. Read any article on Czech-Moravian linguistics.
Moravian dialects were spoken ONLY South of Ratibor and Leobschutz. Around Ostrava, Hulcin, Opava and Frydek-Mistek. These are the so calles laskie gwary heavily influenced by Silesian Polish. LOSLAU IS POLISH-SPEAKING, not Czech or Moravian
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax "in full agreement of the Polish nobility" - ohh believe me you are WRONG, in most cases they were threatened. Russian forces forced the Polish parliament to pass resolutions they demanded.
"Polish national awareness increased after 1791" - and what about the Bar Confederation - sometimes called the first Polish uprising.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@RitterDesHimmels1 In the Russian Empire maybe, as Russia of the tsars had been the mortal enemy of the Poles and Lithuanians for centuries of the Commonwealth. But all nobles in the Prussian and Austrian partitions cooperated peacefully, although under Napoleon some took up arms with the Freemason Tadeusz Kosciusko.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax "nobles in the Prussian and Austrian partitions cooperated peacefully" - lies, lies, lies! that can`t be proved!!! Read diaries from this times many Poles were even forced to sell their houses after the first partition and move to central Poland because they hated Prussian state of frauds and exploiters!
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax The Russian Empire was the biggest and the strongest occupier so the resistance against Russia was stronger than the resistance against Austria and Prussia but during the Kościuszko Uprising Poles wanted to fight against the three occupiers in the same time.
"under Napoleon some took up arms with the Freemason Tadeusz Kosciusko." The Polish-American national hero Tadeusz Kościuszko never supported Napoleon because he didn`t trusted him.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
Comment removed
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax "Poland-Lithuania was dissolved by monarchies and in full agreement of the Polish nobility in most cases. It was relatively peaceful," - Thats only a propaganda. It looks like you aren`t interested in truth at all. The Grodno Sejm was in presence of Russian garrison stationed in and around the New Castle and commanded by Russian ambassador to Poland, Jacob Sievers, to ensure the obedience of all deputies; dissidents were threaten with beatings, arrests, sequestration or exile.
RitterDesHimmels1 1 year ago
@Gattamella 3. The Baltic Old Prussians did not destroy the indigenous culture anymore than the Baptism of Lithuania in 1386 destroyed Lithuanian culture. It christianized the Prussians, although the German, Flemish, Czech Teutonic Knights indeed were quite harsh in suppressing the Prussian tribal Uprisings in 1289 AD. Folklore remained very much, language remained until 1728 AD, but German settlement became the majority in the entirely rural Prussian lands.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@Gattamella You think that the Christianization of Baltic Old Prussia, the safety of Masovia and Poland from pagan invasions, was "disastrous"? This is just your personal anti-German bias, focussed on the Medieval multi-national Teutonic Knights, who had Ottokar II. Přemysl of Bohemia as their primary aide (after whom Königsberg was named in 1286 AD). Baltic Old Prussian language survived for five centuries until 1728 AD.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - no. this is not my personal bias. Prussia was Old Baltic land, grabbed by force and put to sword. This was not a German land before that. Germans came there as military occupiers.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Germans? No. Teutonic Knights. Germans, Czechs, Dutch, Flemings, Danish, Slovenians - all members of the militant Monks of the German Order of St. Mary's Hospital in Jerusalem. Of course Prussia was a conquered land and dominated by the Teutonic Order (not by "Germans" only though, Ottokar II. Přemysl was Czech). It was Christianized forcibly. Like my Saxon ancestors were by Charlemagne, who forced them to accept baptism. Widukind did so voluntarily.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@Gattamella Most Baltic folkore and language in fact was "destroyed" by massive Masurian (Polish) post-1410 immigration into present Masuria and by Lithuanian immigration into Lithuania Minor in eastern East Prussia. The Teutonic Knights were European tolerant but militant Catholics, not cultural Nazi Fascist Imperialist German nationalist warriors like Polish brainwashed paranoid cinema watchers still consider them.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
Why are you lying Iustita? Silesia became part of Bohemian crown in 1348. And since then it also became part of the Holy Roman Empire. 1348.
Silesia was part of German empire since it was Bohemian fief since 1348, just like Lusatia, but it stemmed from one of the integral domains of the Kingdom of Poland. And Polish kings laid claims to it which even the Bohemian Kings recognised.
In 1146, High Duke Władysław II was driven into exile to Germany by his brothers, who took the province.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella The Silesian duke Wladyslaw II the Exile in 1147 AD already accepted Silesia back as a fief from the Holy Roman Empire. All established. Poland was not a united state back then, but a loose union of Particularism. Already since 1327 AD the Silesian duchies came under Bohemia. There were no integral "domains of Poland" back then. Bohemian Kings recognized it? No. They never did. Poland never got Silesia.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
Again. The Vandals an Rugii and their migrations are all well traced. All are mentioned in East Germany, then along Danube, then in Iberia and North Africa. And no Vandals/Silingi in Poland is only a hypothesis. A weak one. There is no consensus about the scientific character of Przeworsk culture.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella I do not give a damn about what you think. Archeology firmly proves Magna Germania in entire modern Poland, with the exception of Podlasie Voivodeship and Ermland-Masuria. All the rest: Germanic settlement area. You want to create a myth of eternal Poland. I do not create a myth of eternal Germany. Germany did exist before 850 AD. Rugii are firmly proven. Vandals are too. Archeological facts. Despite Polish anti-propaganda.....Polskie straty kłamstwa!!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - Yes, Magna Germania ended on Vistula according to Ptolemy. But first one needs to understand what Magna Germania was. Seriously, whatever you say mate. And pls, dont use google translator coz your writing in Polish is incomprehensible.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella It ended on the Pripjat Marshes, not on the Vistula at all. You will probably claim that Vandali, Lugii, Rugii, Silingii, Burgundes, Markomanni, Goths, Franks - tribes all based in modern Polish territory in 100 AD - were all "ancient Slavic tribes".... Sure. Again, I have no problem conceding, that large parts of now Germanic West Flanders, Brabant and Switzerland and South Tyrol were once Celtic or Gallo-Roman entirely, even up until Medieval times. But Poles fear historical truth!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax ...sure, but before you go on claiming all that nonsense just please... go, and read Tacitus and Ptolemy, wii you? they are online... see what they wrote and how they wrote ;)
Gattamella 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - Pripiat marshes is a 1930s theory of Nazi and SS-Ahnenerbe specialists like Kossina or Tackenberg. No modern scholar accepts it. Not only Polish, but Ukrainian, Russian and Lithuanian. It is a typical Germano-centric, German-made "alternative history" that functions only in Germany (and from there at times infests the Anglo-Saxon literature), parallel to other alternative versions popular in the countries in question.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Pripyat marshes is commonly accepted. Or should we now believe the Polish claims, that Rugii, Goths, Vandales, Silingii, Burgunds, Franks and Lugii were all forgotten "Slavic eternal tribes", who were made into Germanic tribes by neo-Nazi Medieval historians and Neo-Nazi modern archaeologists. One big conspiracy against Slavia Magna? One last word: Nazi colonization strategical hypothetical plans from Ahnenerbe were based on older science.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
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@IustitiaPax
" Rugii, Goths, Vandales, Silingii, Burgunds"... It's all short-time entities. Up to a few generations. It is difficult to compare with the country of the millennium.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - What do you know about Silingi, Lugii and Goths? What do you know about archeological findings in question? What authors you refer to? For now you repeat some nonsensical propaganda, which has no acceptance whatsoever. Kostrzewski, Hensel, Gimbutas, Sedov, Terpilovsky... I can list you a dozen more specialists, each from the top shelf in their country. who disagree with almost every single point you said here.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Nazis used the cars of Ferdinand Porsche too? Does that mean that Volkswagen is not a car, but a neo-Nazi illusion from the 1949 British zone of occupation (BRD)? Mercedes Benz never existed? Heinrich Daimler was an illusion? No more than this is true, is it true, that the Pripyat Marsh border was "Nazi theory". It is common archeological consensus since centuries. Even today. Polish "science" and Communist propaganda is not taken seriously anywhere.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I did not understand what's going on in your automotive text.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Gattamella alleged that the Pripyat Marshes border of Sarmatian Proto-Slavic settlement around 250 AD is "Nazi theory". This is false. Porsche technology is not Nazi or false science either, just because the Nazi policy used his techniques. It is wrong to state that US missiles from 1955 are nonsense, because Wernher von Braun designed them. It is a well known fact, that modern Polish territory, was entirely Germanic-inhabited from 0-300 AD, except for Prussia.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - No. What you are saying is FALSE. Prove me that there is any consensus on Pripyat marshes theory! Which authors support it and who they are? And then tell me which of them also say Przeworsk and Wielbark culture were Germanic... I am waiting.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella The Braunsberge-Willenberg Culture (Wielbark Culture) is firmly Germanic, and if you deny this, you are just to be pitied. You then repeat the Polish Pan-Slavic trash "archeology" (propaganda) of the Soviet era. Wielbark is Germanic and very coherent with all other founds, all accounts of the Antique authors and the borders of Magna Germania. You probably also think that Crimean Goths never existed and were in reality true Poles? All the world is Polish: from Urals to Cologne.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
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@IustitiaPax
"You probably also think that Crimean Goths never existed and were in reality true Poles? All the world is Polish: from Urals to Cologne."
What a audacity. It's rude.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax No. What you are saying is not true. Pripiyat Marsh was a 1930s German theory and it has never been a consensus. Never. Not 70 years ago and not today. Not in Poland, nor anywhere else in the East. In fact it has been abandoned altogether in favour of Kiev and Cherniahovsk culture. And anyway, the problem of Przeworsk culture is yet another question. You are spreading here an outdated 1930s German propaganda which is not a modern consensus. Read about Przeworsk/Wielbark cultures.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Anyway, despite your constant flood of Polish and Soviet-era lies from "science", it is clear, that on no territory of modern Poland, did any Slavic tribes live before 500 AD. This is a fact. That is all I wanted to say in my argumentation. You can have your Pripyat Marsh denial for yourself. Austrian archaeologists from 1910 are not "Nazis", nor are modern English archaeologists who confirm the same. Polish and Eastern European archeology is of little importance due to extreme bias.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
"extreme bias"? Hahaha. Are you better? You praise Reich for the same activities that did Poland works. But in the case of Polish, slandering. Poland provoking Hitler? It's true. Shame. But Hitler had provoked the other. It's true. But this time is commendable. For you the glorious or infamy is dependent on the identity of the perpetrator.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax You have fully right my friend we will to disenchant the myths and propaganda lies of the zionist and their polnish chess piece. the polnish tribe was a little tribe which subjected other slawisch and germnic people. It is also well known that Poland was a feudal tenure by the german emperor Otto.
Germanic Tribes lived also at the ground of russia/ukrain you could find till the middle of the 18 century an Ostrogoths accent at the Krim.
Radagis2 1 year ago
@Radagis2 It is a tragedy, that the Polish people allowed itself to be used as a chesspiece of western geopolitics (France, England, USA, NATO) for over two centuries. Today the anti-Russian missiles again.... The Polanie were indeed the core Polish tribe. Pomeranians and Silesians were West Slavic peoples like the Sorbs, not Poles. Otto III indeed crowned Boleslaw I, a tribal duke, to king of the Polans, as a vasal of the Holy Roman Empire.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
No. You are wrong and mixing up Sorbs and Polabians. These were two different groups. Polabians and Pomeranians were not like Sorbs, which were an ethno-linguistic group of their own. In-between the Lechitic group and the Czechoslovak. Pomeranians and Polabians spoke a Lechitic language which was, in medieval ages, almost the same as Polish. In fact Polabians (Obodrites and Veleti) and Pomeranians came from Central Poland. Silesians were not a single tribe, but many.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Pomeranians were never Polish people. They were a nation of their own and mentioned as such by Thietmar von Merseburg. Who probably like all German historians was a "proto-Nazi"? Not? Krajna? Why Krajna if Pomerania was so "integrally Polish". Truth: Pomerania never was. Nor was the Wendland ever Polish.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Adjournment of belonging of Pomerania to Poland, occurred only after the betrayal of the Teutonic Knights. Casimir III the Great renounced his right to Silesia. But he never renounced his rights to Pomerania.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The territory of the Prussian province of Pomerania (Pomerania-Schlawe, Pomerania-Stettin, Pomerania-Wolgast) was never under the Polish crown or a Polish reign. Gdansk Pomerania or Pomerelia is another question. The Pomeranian dynasty of the Griffins (Greifen) were never dependent on the Polish kings and as early as 1181 joined the Holy Roman Empire, after decades of German settlement and German monastical allegiance. The Teutonic Knights never influenced the 1815-1938 territory.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - once again you are wrong. West Pomerania paid tribute to Mieszko I, Boleslaw Chrobry, and was again re-conquered by Bolselaw Wrymouth.
Then it became a Danish fief. However Pomerania-Stolp was part of Polish Pomorze until 1308, and then a Polish fief throughout XV century.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella You pick and choose whatever you like. 979-1035 AD was the only time Pomerania was subjected by the Polish rulers. It was not Polish itself though, despite being Slavic. Between 1164 and 1180 AD the formal incorporation of the Pomeranian dukes and their lands into the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation was effected. 1185-1227 it was (illegally) occupied by Denmark, but returned to the German Empire. You blend out every fact you dislike. Polish chauvinism = Polish falsification.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
". Between 1164 and 1180 AD the formal incorporation of the Pomeranian dukes and their lands into the Holy Roman Empire"
What a audacity. So Piast were forced to cancel this act of arrogance.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Stettin-Pomerania, Stolp-Pomerania etc. were all part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation by 1180. Definitively. But Pomerelia was still under the Polish Crown's protection. I admit that. You admit the other Pomeranian duchies were in the Holy Roman Empire? Or are you going on with denial?
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I must admit that the name "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation" is a sign of great conceit. It seems there was no nationalism before the French Revolution. So the more the name is strange. Was it a state? How much rule was the Emperor? I think that a very loose confederation of dozens of very tiny states. The biggest claim to Szczecin Pomerania can have this small state, who took it.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The Holy Roman Empire was dominated by the German people, but there was no ethnic exclusivist nationalism ever before the 18th century. Language diversity was cherished, Latin transcended all. The Holy Roman Empire was strong until 1556 AD, in fact, despite some internal skermishes.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Maybe. But the conceit of the Holy Empire, is indisputable.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Silesia was and remained part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation since 1147 AD, not only since 1347 AD nor only since the Bohemian allegiance.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Teutonic Order were invaders and occupiers. They destroyed the Old Prussian culture and folklore, decimated the population and germanised the rest. Masurians came as free peasants to Prussia. Where do you get this "they loved Teutonic Order" propaganda crap from? What, did you ask them??? This is hilarious what you said. I dont say that Germans "loved Poland" so they settled in Polish cities in scores after XII-XIII century. They came there for economic reasons, new opportunities.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella The Teutonic Order invaded at the request of the weak Polish duke Konrad I Mazowiecki. Old Prussia was never destroyed on purpose, but by uprisings. The Baltic Prussian language of the small (in numbers) Prussian population continued until 1728 AD and was never decimated or destroyed. Baltic Old Prussians were all assimilated, and words survived in East Prussian German and even Masurian Polish dialect. Masurians loved the Teutonic Order, like Danzig loved Polish kings.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@Gattamella Nikolaus Kopernikus, a Thorn ethnic German, loved and defended the Polish Crown. With the same fervour, Polish-speaking Masurians from 1410 loved the Teutonic Order and defended its lands against Lithuanian and Polish intruders always in all wars, like the Reiterkrieg. This is a well-known fact and continued until 1945. But Polish ethnic nationalists do not like these facts... Truth hurts. And it is hard to abandon the Germanophobe 19th century "Teutonic Knight" propaganda.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Copernicus could have been a German, partially for sure. Yet he was also related to several Polish noble families.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Nikolaus Copernicus was an ethnic German entirely. And the von Watzenrode noble family was ethnic German too and not ethnic Polish. Thorn was entirely ethnic German back then. And still as a Polish royal subject, the German Nikolaus Kopernikus fought the Teutonic Order's claims. As did the 90 % German-speaking (5 % Polish, 5 % Old Prussian) bishopric of the Ermland under Bp. Lukas von Watzenrode.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax How do you know the Kopernik family were Germans? And Watzenrodes were related to Polish nobility. This is an old story. Kopernik was not 100% German ethnically.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Koppernigk family had a Middle German name and were from a German Kraków merchant family originally. The Watzenrode family was entirely of ethnic German nobility, even imperial: from Weizenrodau (Pszenno) in Lower Silesia. Of course Bishop Tiedemann Giese (also a relative) was ethnic German and also pro-Polish subject. 100 % ethnic German. The Haller de Hallenburg family was also 100 % ethnic German until 1718, when Polish intermarriage started in Kraków.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@Gattamella Kopernikus was ethnic German and politically Polish. Let's keep it that way. That corresponds to truth. All his ancestry were ethnic German, both from Kraków, Thorn, Weizenrodau/Silesia and from Unna (Westphalia). It is very clear. Even if Polish Hagiography would not like it.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Indeed, the general Józef Haller was German. He recovered for Poland Pomerania and made marriage. What a irony. Watzenrode was a family of the mother of Copernicus. Grandmammas of many inhabitants of present Gdańsk Pomerania had similar surnames. If you lean the argument about Copernicus on the ground sounds of his name, in such case Klaus Kiński was 100% Pole. On what do I lean my argument? I will imitate your reasoning. Klaus Kiński was Pole.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Kopernikus was entirely ethnic German, always wrote in German and Latin, never in Polish. I did not say he was a German citizen. He was a Polish subject. You just cannot bear the facts. Haller de Hallenburg was a Pole, and his family had been polonized by intermarriage since 1718 in Kraków. Most Catholic ethnic Germans assimilated into Polishness quickly in the 19th century....
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Silesia is Austria!
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Szczecin Pomerania probably was not a part of the Poland. Only homage. This indicates the ease of detachment and almost no attempts to recover. Gdańsk Pomerania is a separate issue. The title of lord this land, held Piast since time immemorial. Casimir III the Great renounced his right to Silesia, because he could not afford a war on two fronts. But Gdańsk Pomerania was too precious.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Finally. You admit that Stettin-Pomerania, Wolgast-Pomerania, Köslin-Pomerania, Schlawe-Pomerania and Stolp-Pomerania never were subjects of Poland. Of course Pomerelia (Danzig Pomerania or West Prussia) was long for centuries paying hommage to Poland. Still Kashubians had separate identity and dynasty. And the Krajna is not called border land for nothing: it separated core, true Poland from Pomeranian duchies which were neighbouring tribal states, not subjects.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I said that probably only about Szczecin Pomerania was a feudal tribute. Because it indicates the conditions, which were easy to tear and a slight attempt to recover. Gdansk Pomerania was more valuable because of the end of the Vistula. River that flowed through most of the major Polish cities. Piasts chose more importantly, because they had no funds for more. The loss of Silesia to the Casimir the Great was nothing compared with Gdansk.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - Why are you lying?
1. West Pomerania up to Szczecin was subjugated to Mieszko I, Boleslaw Chrobry from 967 until 1025. Chrobry founded a bishopcy in Kołobrzeg. It later got independent during the reign of Chrobry's son, Mieszko II.
2. West Pomerania was again re-conquered by Wrymouth and was a Polish fief in 1121-1181
3.Stolp-Pomerania was integral part of Poland in 1290-1308 and a Polish fief between 1390-1478.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella 1. Who missionized Pomerania? Otto of Bamberg, a German bishop. And German monks. Boleslaw I subjected Pomerania as a foreign nation, like Germany in 1940 subjected Belgium. These few decades do not mean integration into the Polish state. 2. From 1163 AD Pomerania was under the Holy Roman Empire. Not inside Poland. 3. Stolp-Pomerania had only dynastic contacts with Poland, it was an autonomous part like Ermland and Ducal Prussia were.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Pomerelia (Pomorskie) was not Pomerania proper; that is why you Poles call it Gdansk Pomerania often. Pomerania proper was never under Polish hegemony, but controlled by the Greifen (Griffin) dynasty until 1647, inside the Holy Roman Empire since 1181 AD. West Prussia, Pomerelia or Prussia of the Royal Partition was under other dukes, closer to the Polish ruling dynasty. Still, from 1410-1466, the partially ethnic German region was governed by the Teutonic Knights.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - no. Pomerelia was ruled by Teutens between 1308-1466. And no it was not "partially ethnic German region" by that time. By no means. Only Vistulean cities like Gdansk and Tczew started becoming German. And that was after some of former Gdansk citizens were slaughtered by the invading Germans in 1308.
Gattamella 1 year ago
@Gattamella Marienwerder, Danzig, Konitz, Schlochau, Marienburg were all part of Pomerelia, which already back then had a firm German majority, far larger than the equal mix population the 1800s, after Catholic Polonization of most Germans there. Dirschau in fact had the fewest Germans of all cities. Danzig's Massacre of 1308 was committed by the multi-ethnic Teutonic Order (Germans, Dutchmen, Czechs, Masurians) against city population which was ethnic German, and against Kashubian nobility.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Do you know the full and official name of the Teutonic Knights? This is your bias: the Teutonic Knights slaughter of Gdansk: Nothing special. If hyphotetical Teutonic Knights were Poles, then this would be a thousand more heinous. Can you compare this with the party that the Soviets were arranged after the conquest of Gdańsk? For you, the power of shame of crime depends on the identity of the perpetrator.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn There were numerous Polish nobles inside the Teutonic Knights. Disenchanted Catholic sons of Polish nobility who joined the Masurians in the Monastic State of Prussia. Ethnic nationalism did not exist back then. Most Polish officers back then were German nobles in service of the Polish king. Face reality, chap. The Danzig massacre was not nationalist, but just a royal and territorial dispute.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
So Gdańsk before the invasion of the Teutonic was the center paganism? I doubt it. It was about money! Whoever controlled the end of the Vistula River, was rich. You will be merciful to condemn this massacre as honestly as you condemn the massacre of Gdansk in 1945? Really, you need to know what was the total and the official name of the Teutonic Knights.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn I know the Teutonic Order invasion of Danzig was about power. I admit that. I am not defending every act of the Teutonic Knights. This is some weird other nationalist 19th century obsession of Polish chauvinists: identifying the multi-ethnic Teutonic Order with "Germany and Prussia", and claiming Germans would justify every Teutonic act. Of course not. I do not like the 1525 POLISH-facilitated Lutheran apostasy-secularization either!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
From the time of the nineteenth century, the Poles called the Kingdom of Prussia "Krzyżacy". The reason was that the Teutonic Knights were the nucleus of this glutton. Nucleus, which has developed very slowly. Today is a very rarely used insult. If a Pole say to you: "Ty Krzyżaku", know that this is an insult. Comparison to the great scoundrels.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn The Polish lies about the Teutonic Order are based on 19th century Nationalist myths. Henryk Sienkiewicz sadly also has a lot of anti-German bias in his work Krzyżacy (1900). But this is not objective historiography. The Teutonic Order was loved by the Polish-speaking Masurians since 1410 AD, when the Masurians settled Masuria, which before had been for two centuries German-speaking with some Prussian Baltic language pockets.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Don't tell "lies", because you know full well and official name of the Teutonic Knights. Stubbornly refuse to quote. The French Foreign Legion contains very few French (only the highest officers). But there is a reason for the name of which includes: "French." On behalf of Henryk Sienkiewicz, I humbly apologize for the way he wrote about the Teutonic Knights. But it is not bad, when compared to the propaganda by the Teutonic Knights , that 400 year old catholic country is a pagan.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Deutsch in 1220 meant only "folkish" (völkisch, of the people) in German language, it did not mean Germania. The Teutonic Knights never stated that Poland was "pagan". Never. Their conflicts were on other issues. Poland broke its promises, its vows and the cession of lands like the Kulmer Land, granted to the Teutonic Order by Konrad of Masovia.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - Poland broke no promises, and there as never been any cession of Kulmer Land. It was granted as a fief to the Knights, with Konrard the Duke of Masovia retaining the ownership. The Order forged the documents. Anyway, the Order invaded Kuiavia, Dobrzynska Ziemia. Read the stuff and stop telling your fables of good Germans and bad Poles.
And since you approve of auto-determination, then you got to accept the fact that over 40% Upper Silesians did not want to stay in the Prussia.
Gattamella 1 year ago