Ron Paul: There May Even be an Anarchist Here or Two?!

[KyleSkullz]

Capitalism is the fullest expression of Anarchism and Anarchism is the fullest expression of capitalism.

[wbhyatt]

Anarcho-capitalism has been written off by the Anarchist movement. Anarchists and AnCaps can't really coexist haha

[TheDeadAreGrateful]

@wbhyatt

agreed. Us non ancap anarchists believe that there is coercion and hierarchy implicit within any economy. Anticapitalism is crucial to a free society, in most anarchist's views.

However, I hate the squabbling that takes place between the black/yellow flaggers and the rest of us. I think we should step back and treat each other's approaches with respect, because ultimately, we're taking two approaches to the same goal! Most ancaps wouldn't force me to use their economy anyway!

[SiouxSyndicate]

Im here Ron! Viv(A)

[walkthejosh1]

It seems that a lot of capitalists here don't know the definition of 'capitalism.' Many seem content simply say capitalism = free market, but that's a gross misunderstanding of capitalism. Any meaningful definition of the term has to include free markets, private ownership, and wage labor; without those three you don't have capitalism. If you create some item in your basement and sell them on a free market that doesn't make you a capitalist; you'd believe in something like 'artisanism."

[walkthejosh1]

So-called "anarcho-capitalists" seem to miss this nuance in almost every discussion I see. The traditional anarchist critique of capitalism has nothing to do with the free market (though some wish to abolish markets all together); it has way more to do with the exploitative nature of wage labor and its direct cause: absolute property rights (apart from occupation and use). These things are directly dependent on massive state intervention for meaningful enforcement.

[walkthejosh1]

It seems quite clear to me that any sort of system that is meaningfully capitalist cannot exist without a state apparatus (public or private) to defend the rights to property that is not being occupied and used, and therefore wage labor. Also, if you say you support a system that allows everyone to "bear the fruits of their labor," you're not a capitalist. Wage labor implies that you pay a "tribute" (profit) to capital prior to receiving your wage. Weird to find that you're a socialist isn't it?

[icopaseticMHF]

I've never heard Ron Paul call himself a leader. He's not as libertarian as some but, imagine 4 years without anyone being killed in a federal drug raid, or being forced to pay for constant war. 4 years of congress unable to overcome a veto on all new spending. 4 years of tv time for a president promoting self reliance instead of class warfare or xenophobia. I registered as a Republican a couple weeks ago because this may be as close as freedom gets in my lifetime.

[TheGunPulseClan]

Is alright to ba an Anarchist

[decmasta]

I just can't seem to come to terms with a utopian capitalism... even if it operates at an extremely local level... unless people are satisfied with getting paid the same wages no matter the position....

but then that's anarcho-syndicalism

[swu880]

those who think capitalism is cruel must approve of theft & murder. Capitalism is all about one's voluntary efforts, keeping one's own property, working hard & bearing the fruits of one's labor whether they be sweet, sour, or extremely bitter. Only capitalism can bear liberty- & liberty bear humanity. If u dont like capitalism, u dont like humanity, u dont like liberty & u despise personal property. You would have to be a thief or a murderer to think u have any right to a neighbor's property

[tyronelol]

@swu880 no

[swu880]

@tyronelol

yes- if u actually studied any bit of economics u would realize just what is capitalism. Hect I doubt u even know what capital is. or even how wealth is created in the first place-

hint- try reading Adam Smith "Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations" and also David Riccardo and Frederich Bastiat

[tyronelol]

@swu880 no

[swu880]

capitalism is by no means exploitive or creul -its impossible to be exploitative or cruel when everything is VOLUNTARY as in capitalism. What is exploitative & cruel is NON capitalism- involuntary- the use of force against ones fellow man! ONLY capitalism can produce any real wealth

[MirageScience]

think i heard more than one anarchist xD

[slayar764]

Ron Paul is everything anarchists are against.

[Nintendomanwill]

@METALLICA679

I don't disagree with that, just see whether voluntary socialism is more popular than voluntary property rights...oh wait, Socialism is actually incompatible with individual freedom because it collectivises property and is a process of not allowing volition in matters of charity and nepotism and corporate welfare for loss making companies i.e. State Socialist monopolies funded through general taxation...

[METALLICA679]

@Nintendomanwill yes yes, sorry. I was talking out of my ass, I didnt really think about what I was saying. I agree with you, and through greater study of economics I have been trying to expand my knowledge on the subject in question, thanks for responding actually I forgot I commented this shit. Ive become more interested in Economics and Philosophy since this post and though I'm very well versed, I am trying. I'll take down the comment as it is as you imply, bullshit.

[METALLICA679]

@METALLICA679

sorry misstype: "and though I'm not very well versed, I am trying."

[enemyartistkristofeR]

RON PAUL for President 2012!

END The FED

peace. love & Anarchy

[rise54321]

Berzerkerevl,you don't know alot about the anarchist philosophies or you wouldn't make such a haphazard statement. Of course some anarchists don't vote, others though do not reject voting as a potential tool in terms of aquiring justice. There are complexities within anarchism just as their are within other systems. Go beyond the public fear label "Anarchist" and investigate for yourself the true viewpoints. You might be surprised.

[RjWeapon]

sounds like more than one anarchist in the crowd to me

[lawspad]

I don't think you guys even know what libertarianism is.. you all site it like the joke that is the Libertarian Party.

You could say that libertarians have an average dislike for government, that government is the Mafias mildly retarded big brother. libertarianism sees government as immoral.

libertarianism is not limited government and free market enterprise, it's borderline anarchy. an ideal libertarian society has no government.

just read rothbard or hess, sometime.

[Berzerkerevl]

im disturbed by all the people who cheered when he said anarchist that doesent help ron's campaign at. besides anarchists cant vote it contradicts there beliefs so go home and stop making libertarians look bad and ruin the chance of having a true patriot in the white house.

[timothyxmcveigh]

Up until recently the word Libertarian and the word anarchist were synonomous. I don't see how anarchism discredits Paul. Even Woody Guthrie was an anarchist....Thats as American as you can get.

[prjctcivilian]

you don't understand socialism nor anarchism. in anarchism the goal is to have completely horizontal social relationships in which there is NO hierarchy in any form. In anarchism the means of production are collectively owned by the workers just like in socialism. the goal of communism is anarchism. the socialist want government ownership but worker control.

[Jcolinsol]

@prjctcivilian

I think that it's dubious to be too stringent when associating any particular form of social order Anarchy. There are Anarcho-capitalists, Anarcho-syndicalists, Anarcho-primitivists, all kinds of different ideas of what Anarchy can or should be

To me, the fundamental nature of Anarchy is the abolition of institutions which prevent individuals from pursuing their aspirations. Those aspirations could be acquisition of capital, or a non-hierarchical mode of production, or anything

[prjctcivilian]

@Jcolinsol Anarcho-capitalism is an oxy moron. Anarchism is about ending oppression-hierarchy in any area of life, whether it be in political or economic institutions, in order to liberate humanity- Ron Paul is not a true anarchist, no anarcho capitalist can be as the proletariat is still bound by the chains of wage labour!

[Jcolinsol]

@prjctcivilian

Well, that's a boring old platitude.

[Houshalter]

@prjctcivilian, I think you missed the point entirely. Anarcho capitalism just replaces all the services the government provides with more efficient private ones that compete against each other to optimize the system with free market principles. Social anarchy is just people running around with guns (or more likely more primitive weapons) shooting anyone that tries to increase their standard of living. People have been trading for thousands of years before governments.

[prjctcivilian]

@Houshalter no i don't think you understood, i wasn't stating that anarcho capitalism is dumb because ppl will run around killing one another. Private property is the source of exploitation, inequality and injustice. the capitalist system is based upon a hierarchy, anarchism is based upon destroying that hierarchy and creating equality in all fields of life.

[Houshalter]

@prjctcivilian, well corporatism wouldn't exist without a state, and hierarchial structures may be a necessary evil, but the free market always favors decentralization. Even the largest companies are usually owned by hundreds or thousands of people via stock markets, and anyone can join them.

"Capitalism is the fullest expression of anarchism, and anarchism is the fullest expression of capitalism." -Murray Rothbard

[prjctcivilian]

@Houshalter @Houshalter golly gee i wasn't referring to corporatism. i was talking about capitalism being exploitative and cruel. some quote does not prove that capitalism is a expression of anarchism. It is true the free market is an anarchic system but in this case anarchic just means there is no higher authority than the dollar. In political terms anarchism traditionally is not merely concerned with destroying the state b/c the state steals, it strives for equality- politicaly and economical

[Houshalter]

@prjctcivilian, and it promotes stealing? How else are you going to distribute resources fairly? Just like anarchy, capitalism is a default position. It simply is the emergent result of the same set of rules that lead to anarchy, which is almost none except for natural rights. People have been trading resources for thousands of years, it's basic human nature.

Also, how is capitalism "exploitative and cruel"? That statement has no content, it's just an appeal to emotions.

[decmasta]

@prjctcivilian yes anarchism has come to mean that now but most individuals see anarchism first an foremost a way of living without centralization (that's why it is applied to anarcho-capitalism... capitalism without rules--- and most likely implies exploitation (unless someone can clearly articulate to me why marx was wrong about the owners wanting to reduce costs all the time))... but in this newer sense you are discussing (which i agree), anarchism wouldnt allow this.

[toadbear]

Doody turtle deluxe. Let me get my legos now.

[God3luv]

I wonder if the booers were mad about what he said about socialism or if they were supporting his distaste for it. Surely there has got to be good socialism out there but I think distributivism a much worthy political philosophy to bit.

[God3luv]

Communism and Capitalism are two sides of the same coin of slavery.

[mclaro725]

Thats very knowledgable. Im sure youd get alot of applause on The Bill Maher show for that

[God3luv]

This is one of those comments that I'm glad to have no idea what the writers talking about.

Apparently somebody is judging my apparent lack of political jargon prowess. Its alright...not reading newspapers and watching Bill Maher I think has made me a bit smarter...Wait do I hear Thomas Jefferson. "Advertisements contain the only truths to be relied on in a newspaper. " I'm not sure was that sarcasm? lol. No hard feelings sir but we are on debating grounds...that is a youtube comment string.

[mclaro725]

No sir, I completely understand what im talking about. What I was thinking when I wrote that is that kind of rhetoric in which you say in front of an audience who just looks for what is popular for them to look at (The Liberal Majority) and you get an applause out of it. If you deny that then I will no further talk about this. And btw, if it were today Thomas Jefferson would have never said that comment, considering the advertisements we see today. Modern Media is opinion, not lies.

[God3luv]

Its a 50/50 split if you ask me.

[hoangjoseph]

Im not even American.. but this guy is probably the best politician you all have.

Ron Paul could make America, honourably the best country.

[jackriter]

"anarcho" capitalism is an oxymoron

[CypherSystem]

agreed, but sadly half of all anarchists are an-caps :P

He who pays the piper always calls the tune, A competitive wealth system implies the continued existence of inequality and unjust authority.

[jackriter]

I wouldn't say half of all anarchists, they are an extreme minority within Anarchism, they just troll the internet. Outside of the US, thankfully, "anarcho" capitalism is laughable.

[CypherSystem]

I probably shouldn't have said half, I meant it in a figurative sense, Half of all Anarchists I meet turn out to be An-Caps.

I like my Kropotkin. :)

[jackriter]

Damn straight!

[bringbacktheninjas]

orly?

[jackriter]

YARLY

Anarchism is against hierarchy, "anarcho" capitalists need a new name.

How about calling yourselves private minarchists, since you don't oppose the state, you just want to privatize it. Just in the form of DROs and "protection agencies".

[Gettinghitonattheban]

Name one capitalistic society where capitalism works well with the state monopoly acting in corrosion?

[jackriter]

Hong Kong

all the property was state owned and most people lived on public assistance and subsidiesed housing, much state intervention in economy

of course I'm no fan, but you all love to point it out

[Gettinghitonattheban]

No leader with economic freedom. Explain yourself.

[jackriter]

I don't really understaou're saying.

My boss has authority over me and if I leave I face starvation, poverty, and social exclusion. So I am obligated to work for someone else because I need to feed my family. My boss profits off of my labor just because he has a deed to where my workplace is, so he steals part of my paycheck though I produce more wealth than he gives me, that is exploitation.

[HyperSonic9000]

He's not an anarchist. He's a libertarian. He still believes in some sort of order, just a Corporate order.

[enekt]

Anarchism does not promote chaos and destruction, on the contrary.

The A inside the O is for-

Anarchy is Order.

[HyperSonic9000]

I didn't mean order in that sort of sense, I meant governence. Power to the people is not a right merely reserved in an Anarchy.

[satanismylovechild69]

A true anarchist wouldn't vote, because he/she'd be spending their time thwarting establishment.

Just my opinion I suppose, but I find it difficult to claim that you believe in no system, yet you vote in a system.

[ScottBrown666]

dont be stupid

voting is direct action

[emcee4343]

thing is in short to put a big silver bullet into the libeteranian's pie holes into dissin the anarchists...

anarchy never happened so u cant really say it wont work.

we lived capatalisim and we have waited for almost how much? more than 50 years for a better "democratic" system

and yes im still waitin...?

if ur gonna give me somalia an example that went the wrong steps into forming an anachist society.

[EstTwo]

Long Live Anarchy!

[ProprietorOfSelf]

many libertarians are anarchists. search "anarcho-capitalism."

[decmasta]

@ProprietorOfSelf lol

[23lFrench]

@ProprietorOfSelf Anarchism with bosses!!!!!! seriously though you guys are a joke.

[cmwerner100]

@ProprietorOfSelf Anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Ron Paul preaches minarchism, not anarchism. Minarchism is far worse than an authoritarian State, because at least with a strong government it's possible to soften the worst excesses of capitalist injustice through forcible wealth redistribution.

I am an anarchist, but I would far rather live in a police state than the sort of sinister Randian dystopia Ron Paul represents where you have the "freedom" to starve to death, cold and homeless.

[jortylbro]

Thank you, NoJusticeNoPeace. I'm sick of libertarian capitalists calling themselves as "anarchists".

[ThemowofChow]

haha a president with humour - thats who i want.

Go Ron Paul

[iamjackscolin]

I can almost guarantee that there are NO anarchists there, and if there are, I'd like to have a talk with them. So you're not going to bow to special interests, who is paying for this very successful rally?

[griffjam]

yes how much did those two chairs set his campaign back? six? seven dollars?

[HeritageNotHateProd]

< PROUD RON PAUL SUPPORTER!!!

[sizzlepuss7]

RP or Bust

[androidmarshmellow]

This is why I am so enthused by Ron Paul. He wants you to have the right to believe whatever you want to believe even if it clashes with his point of view.  He certainly is not an anarchist himself, but his message and the anarchist's message are the same: Do whatever you want as long as you are not violating the rights of the other person to do what he wants. True anarchism is moral because to be free you must be responsible.

[androidmarshmellow]

My idea of anarchy is not exactly total chaos. The last thing I want is for roving bands of thugs pushing around the common citizenry. If you steal, you violate the right to property. If you assault someone, you violate the right to prosperity. If you kill someone, you violate the right to life. While there are extenuating circumstances which lead one to do such things (American revolution, etc.), it is usually uncalled for and completely unethical.

[androidmarshmellow]

I am not a full-fledged anarchist! I spend money, I follow rules, I compromise, but there is one thing I hold to be certain: the power of the individual must prevail over the power of groups. You determine society, not the other way around!

[wm7734]

Anarchists for Ron Paul!

[sheepblitzer]

i think once a person starts supporting a president they are no longer anarchist...just by principle

[daydreamset]

not necessarily. what an anarchist chooses to do with his or her time and energy is predicated upon value-judgements... the same as any other human being.

[sheepblitzer]

you cant just call yourself an anarchist (non-authoritarian, "without rulers") when bush is president, then when a potential president you agree with comes along then suddenly authoritarian rule is acceptable. maybe a min-archist or neo-libertarian in Ron Paul's case, but not anarchist.

[androidmarshmellow]

The person supersedes the label which they are using. You can not change a label very much, but you can always change your mind.

[jayron77]

In fact I may add that Libertarians are just mellowed out/conservative Anarchists.

[jayron77]

Anarchism id simply libertarianism in it's extremeist/purest form. Living life to the fullest, total freedom and the pursuit of total happiness without anyone telling them what to fvcking do.

[jayron77]

The founding fathers were friggin Anarchist for god's sake, they pulled the middle finger to the British and told them to get the fvck off our backs or else!

[IggyTheReaper]

I take issue with this statement because the definition of anarchism is not "chaotic jackass" nor is it "rich white slave owner who establishes nations."

[funk53daba]

The man so adorable, he has two first names...and his middle name is "Ernest."

[ileso13]

what a brilliant man.

[CaptainFTW]

Clueless Americans fucking anarchism up yet again.

[LeeGeeGee]

You're clueless. Americans were the first anarchists. Thoreau and Josiah Warren.

[heynimrod888]

From what I know about him so far, I really want him to be president.

Fuck Hillary. WE NEED RON.

[ChemicalGoat]

get active today. you have to make your families, neighbors, friends, coworkers and strangers aware of Dr. Paul and his message and the importance of his running at this point in our history. make signs, dvd-rs, and flyer cars. GET ACTIVE and JOIN the REVOLUTION!

[senateb]

ron paul is the friggin messiah

[manmanguy]

Everyone has and will continue to dismiss Dr. Paul. Give it your best. He is the only forward candidate in my eyes.

[msiksig]

the problem is that ron paul's message is completely insane and would turn america into a wasteland

[snoogatron]

i guess our founding fathers were all insane and our country was a fucking wasteland before 1913 AMIRITE?!

[YourVenusDoom666]

ha yeah 1913... the "magical" year for wealthy bankers... ron paul would help our country get back to true freedom.

[warholnblake]

I'm an anarchist, and I'm voting for Ron Paul.

[KushinLos]

As am I.

[AmishSexy]

Anti-authoritarians don't vote or support a system that causes most of the world's problems. by participating in representitive democracy you are conceding that authority and hierarchy can be legitimized and have a place in our society which clearly goes against the main ideas of anarchism.

[YourVenusDoom666]

yes government systems do cause problems... but to acheive true freedom and anarchy, we must take steps to freedom, and by voting for ron paul, we are taking those steps... think about it.

[punkisaghetto]

by letting capitalism take more control furthering the wealth gap? I don't think so mate. Libertarianism doesn't bring freedom, check out what Thatcher did in the UK.

[YourVenusDoom666]

i agree entirely with you... but, libertarianism is a hell of a lot better then what we've got now...

[jortylbro]

"libertarianism is a hell of a lot better then what we've got now..."

That is unless you are an environmentalist, feminist, dependent on social security or welfare, or living in a third world country...

[YourVenusDoom666]

are you aware of what happened in 1913 to this country? there are bigger issues than what you label yourself... because soon enough there wont be any labels for anyone anymore. search: zeitgeist federal reserve.

[jortylbro]

Bigger issues than human rights? You mean business opportunities for ambitious capitalists?

Are you also aware that at the time child labour, dangerous working conditions, discrimination, low wages, and violent union busting were rampant.

[YourVenusDoom666]

all too aware... there is no bigger issue than human rights... or rights for any creature for that matter, but the reason i bring up 1913 is because thats when bad turned to worse, and id like to share that with the world... dont get me wrong i believe in total freedom on all levels, but i know in order to acheive that, steps have to be taken.

[Karma000Justice]

punkisaghetto you have never experienced true capitalism. We have a system where lobbyists of corporations are in bed with government. Beaureaucrats regulate and tax everything. We have so many social programs that there is no way you can say our country has a pure capitalist government. If we had a true FREE market society instead of our socialist, facist, military industrial complex government you would see society flourish. Libertarians would clean up all that mess and would bring freedom.

[punkisaghetto]

no one can be free under any form of capitalism. Oppression is inherent in its need of hierarchy.

[emcee4343]

thats in theory right mate?

aight wait one sec... isnt that the same thing all u government supporter bastards say to each ananrchist whose tryin to make a point that caparalisim will not work?

as i said u never lived or seen an anarchist society crack down to call that it wont work

(if no one said it oh yeah believe me all of u have said it at one point discussin anarchy vs. governement)

[AnarchyIsLiberty]

@warholnblake :)

[ammoMtaFoY]

@warholnblake Then you're a hypocrite.

[flyinis4me]

anarchy is the opposite of communisom. total self government. individual responsibility.

Chaos is what you dont want.

[jayron77]

Anarchism is simply extreme liberatrianism/individualism where individuals have total control of their property rights, speech and course of action without interference from other individuals and groups. Living life to the extreme, the pursuit of total liberty and neverending freedom is what an Anarchism is all about.

[momerath42]

I'm a techno/market-anarchist for Ron Paul! There's a hell of a lot more of us than those who think anarchy is a "floating abstraction" realize :)

Paul/Kucinich vs Kucinich/Paul!

Take back *both* parties from the CFR!

[dingusmungus]

@opchidexio

Call me crazy, but I thought you were a Ron Paul hater???

[opchidexio]

Anarchists? There may also have been an anarchist (or two) back in 1776! There may have been a few (even back then) who subscribed to strange conspiracy theories!

[opchidexio]

Do you know how many HUNDREDS of people will run for President in your lifetime? Do you know how many speeches they will deliver? You may have the opportunity to hear nearly 10,000 speeches in your lifetime! This one MAY BE the most meaningful speech ...of the century? It might be. Time will tell.

[Xuvious1]

"It's one of the wonderful things about the Constitution, it brings us together".

You forgot that part.

[Flohoff]

I am sure you had a mix of just about any flavor. People cross all lines.

[katrinatecxidor]

ron paul!

[DNT1987]

Go Ron Paul Go

[reyes5912]

That was brillant of him to say that. I enjoyed the whole speech it was great and tons of people were their too.