Ferro Rod Damaged Firesteel - What Happened Here?

[demnlordd666]

1)not tin pest b/c its not just taking a diff crystal structure, powder doesn't burn its oxidation like w/ old BIC lighter. 2) the electrolysis idea could be striker steel and rod with water. but that would be obviously red staining. 3) my guess, a surface defect catalyzed reaction. normally there is a fine oxide layer that prevents fast rusting, but another substance can make a mid point for oxygen to grab first then enter metal surface, maybe past fire residue, sweat, zinc from sunscreen?

[demnlordd666]

@demnlordd666 residue from a fire has all kinds of minerals in it, many could possibly attach to be a bridge for the oxygen. but main point is that's most likely HOW, but as to the WHY, beats me. end result is definitely an oxide, so oxygen did it one way or another, but somewhere something else helped

[EconoChallenge]

@demnlordd666 Zinc from sunscreen. This is the first suggestion that sunscreen might play a part and worth looking into. I am always wearing sunscreen but perhaps I used a different brand with slightly different ingredients. Could be possible. We are trying new stuff all the time.

[isaacoscar1]

hahahhahahahah who gives a fuck, they are $2.50 off ebay

[EconoChallenge]

@isaacoscar1 True. But last time I was out in the bush ... I did not have an internet connection, credit card or a postal address for shipping.

[DugbaLaser]

I've found many a long lost Bic lighter with nothing but white powder left for flint.

Related to "tin pest?"

Rust? Loosely speaking, rust (oxidation) requires current flow, typically a natural battery between dissimilar metals and usually an electrolyte (like impure water). Either the dissimilar metals were within the rod, or it was contacting another metal.

Good pics of similar at bladeforums; google: "wierd round-bottom crater-shaped corrosion" "ferro-rod and the pitting" G'luck!

[EconoChallenge]

@DugbaLaser I googled and checked out the pictures. The damage is very similar in that it only pitted certain areas of the rod. Unfortunately the rod was cleaned up. It was my first reaction when I found the damage. After I wished I had taken a pic or two first. Salt water we know is bad and my rod gets exposed to it through sweat all the time. Perhaps one of those times it performed the roll of electrolyte as part of some kind of chemical reaction in my fanny pack. Test?

[Greegor47]

Fire starter rods are commonly of TWO types involving TWO

different formulations of mixed metals. One incredient in the

mix is Magnesium which corrodes very rapidly with exposure

to salt water. I think the pits are from where globs of

magnesium used to be.

[EconoChallenge]

@Greegor47 It does seem (of late) that we are circling this idea that we are simply dealing with a manufacture defect. Drahcirl in the comment below suggested a similar idea where some of the powder was not completely cured (or compressed) and simply turned back into dust and fell out. Perhaps aided by the corrosive effects of salt water.

[drahcirl]

I'm in the process of digging through old hard drives to see if I can find those Strike Force pics but no luck yet. Gerber tried to claim it was oxidation, too, but it was in specific small holes exactly like yours. Looked like woodworm. Gerber dropped the Strike Force just about that time. Sorry for the typos. Long day here.

[EconoChallenge]

@drahcirl If you can find the pics and send them, we would be happy to compare the damage and .... hopefully ... conclude this mystery.

[drahcirl]

It's flint rot. All mad made ferro rods will eventually crumble back into dust given the right conditions. Gerber tried to claim it was oxidation on their StrikeForce but oxidation happens all over, not in deep holes in certain spots. No answers and no prevention. Sorry.

[EconoChallenge]

@drahcirl What do you mean? That is an answer ... FLINT ROT! First I have heard of this after all this time. We will look into this idea also. What I find interesting about your answer is that oxidation would happen all over and we have rediscovered this in our little tests. A few other viewers suggested a manufacture defect ... similar.

[SirThunderPants]

It's the underwear knomes! Vicious little bastards.

[john51880]

It looks like it was stored in some way that some thing rubbed across it as you walked.

[EconoChallenge]

@john51880 We did consider this. If I could show you better pictures of the original damage you would see that it looked like something had eaten into the metal. More like a hole. And in several different places. I have not changed where I keep it. But the damage has not continued.

[mrouterrim]

Your insect repelant might be the problem.I just sent my repel pump bottle back because the cap would melt and fall off after repelant came in contact with it.I will let u know what they come up with.

[EconoChallenge]

@mrouterrim We have been doing some testing using some of the suggestions that have come along. We still do not have an answer we feel explains the damage but we did rule out a few. One of them was DEET. It will melt plastic but for some reason it does nothing to these ferro rods. We put a link in the description under this video.

[hobbexp]

it have happen to me too,, salt water, i hear it can happen with fresh water too,

fredde

[phrankus2009]

Do you store it in the same compartment with any sor of matches or sulphur-based compounds ? ...

watch?v=R4pfZAcPq3o

[2kargarage1]

Just buy a new one.

Great vid thnx

[AlexandarProdaction]

first item is strike everywhere matches

[EconoChallenge]

@AlexandarProdaction We tested that theory and it failed our test. Nothing happened to the rod.

[phillipgaley]

The ferrocerium-rod is hydroscopic (draws water), and also because It's a combined metal, the attracted moisture enhances ionic reaction (makes a battery) and erodes itself (anode - cathode); if left in a tool box, say, without air circulation, welder's strikers, and other of the sparky type so-called flints do the same thing—turning to a white powder, . . .

[EconoChallenge]

@phillipgaley Thank you. We have something to test. The rod in the video is still working even after all the other tests we have conducted. To try and recreate the conditions that might have caused the damage in the video I think I will use a sweat soaked dew rag as the source of the moister. Seal that up in a zip bag with the rod and see what happens. What do you think?

[phillipgaley]

@EconoChallenge While I don't know what perspiration would have to do with it, although the process will take some months, it will be eroded, . . . it may work faster if in proximity or contact with a piece of steel, . . . to set the conditions for ionic bonding or ionization, . . .

[EconoChallenge]

@phillipgaley The fire steel comes with a striker. I will keep that in the same zip bag and make sure it is touching the rod. the reason for perspiration is the salt. We have already shown that a saturated salt solution will react with the rod immediately! The waist pack does get soaked often from perspiration.

[survivormanjr1]

if u kept them by mathches that happens

[EconoChallenge]

@survivormanjr1 That is not true and we proved it in our Ferro Rod Torture Video. You can see all the testing we have done so far in that video.

[survivormanjr1]

@EconoChallenge strike anywhere matches do that

[EconoChallenge]

@survivormanjr1 I will send you a link to the video and you can see for yourself. Strike anywhere matches do nothing to the metal of a fire steel.

[ESAPOWER]

@EconoChallenge Anything with a large quantity or concentration of sulfur is caustic to several of the alloys in this particular design of Ferroseum Rod. The shape of the corrosion scar is tell-tale of the nature of the damage. It is possible this was caused by ordinary matches, over time, or more likely, Commando, or Boat matches. Anything with this much sulfur should be kept in airtight packages, or safely away from metallic materials. Sometimes these corrosive reactions can be vicious. :)

[ESAPOWER]

@EconoChallenge I know that you will try to fight this point. HOWEVER. I hasten to point out that H2SO4 is a compound of Hydrogen, Sulfur, and Oxygen.

Introduce Moisture to the Sulfur of a Match, and then place your ferroceum rod INTO the solution.

What the Sulfur has essentially made is a small portion of Sulfuric Acid. This is an agressive chemical. :)

[graffiticandy]

its sulfer 

[EconoChallenge]

@graffiticandy We tried match heads. We tried black powder. The problem is finding a source for sulfur that would be carried by someone backpacking in the wilderness. You can see all the testing we have done so far in our Ferro Rod Torture Testing video.

[cockercane]

Apparently you angered a wizard somewhere in your travels. He / she was probably not good at fire spells.

[EconoChallenge]

@cockercane That may be about it at this point. Its Carma man ....!

[ihikearoundcom]

I was just throwing sparks with the fire steel and a spark landed back on the rod it made a secondary light then went out. I examined the rod to see a small pit.

Over time I could imaging this compromising the rod, but I know your fire steel had a short time duration damage. Just an observation I made.

[ihikearoundcom]

Have you solved the problem? I made an interesting observation with my new fire steel this weekend. Think it could yield some answers. The rod is brand new, but a pit has formed were a spark landed on the rod itself.

[EconoChallenge]

@ihikearoundcom We still have nothing. When you say a spark landed on the rod are you saying a spark for the fire you started?

[hoosierarcher]

Ferrocium exposed to salt, water and time in close proximity to another metal causes electrolysis. And massive molecular depletion. As ship builders discovered with "screws" made of two different metals and sea water. A heat source wiuld increase the action.

[CrudeAnalysiz]

This has happened to a couple of firesteels of mine also. I believe it's very simple. Since the firesteel is made from a piece of carbon steel, this means that it can rust, corrode & ultimately, break. Knives with carbon steel blades, if not cared for, will eventually rust & can break. Firesteels should be no different. They should be kept in a dry place at all times. If any moisture collects on it, it will corrode the steel. Hope this helps.

Steve.

[MrItchyElbow]

Also on youtube there is some information about how ferro rods can be corroded. Search for FIRESTEEL CORROSION here on youtube.

[MrItchyElbow]

So, if your still looking for an answer, I would hazard a guess based on my SRKW research and would say that while you were storing the contents of your pack containing the jute and the ferro rod, water had maybe soaked the jute twine which was in contact with the rod and that wet jute corroded the rod. Just a guess, but it seems reasonable.

[MrItchyElbow]

Here is something that I just looked up on the net. Okay, the URL can't be in the comment so if you look up SRKW Rat Chat: Playing With Fire there is some information about ferro rods. Perhaps, this is the answer to your query.

[EconoChallenge]

These rods are much tougher than many viewers thought. So far a strong solution of salt and water is the only substance tested that can corroded the rod. However the testing we have completed so far has not reproduced anything close to the original damage we discovered. We are still looking for an answer.

[rainbowhiker]

Okay! In the never ending, seemingly, mystery, that's got me as mystefied as you, here's another couple of thoughts. (1) Could the edge of your razor that you use to create sparks have worn it down, 'inside' the pack? And another: (2) Could the razor's medal have reacted with the rod? It isn't cromed, like the striker that comes with it.. It has another type of surface coating on it. This is keeping me up nights, not knowing what went on. Keep us posted before my finger nails are all gone.

[EconoChallenge]

@rainbowhiker Well since you are still on the case I can let you in....and anyone else who reads the comments... on the latest. Stuffing the rod into a freshly fired shell ... while the smoke was still coming out and sealing the entire experiment in a zip lock bag has resulted in no corrosion. I thought this would finally end the speculation. But no. It has been seal for three weeks. AS for (1) the answer is no. And (2) We exposed the striker to all the same substances in the video. Nope

[rainbowhiker]

@EconoChallenge Rats!

[masterdurchgriff]

was the striker rubbing against the rod maybe? Cause the damage looks to be more of mechanical origin rather than chemical as it are deep but very localised grooves (like a sharp object rubbed it continously during movement...)

[EconoChallenge]

@masterdurchgriff You are correct. But the extra rubbing was me trying to get the rod back into working order. I did not get an video of the damage when I first noticed it. If you saw it then you would see that it was corrosion of some kind.

[masterdurchgriff]

@EconoChallenge

aha ok that makes sence, thanks.. So its a mystery still..

[EconoChallenge]

@masterdurchgriff Unfortunately it is still a mystery. I have vowed not to replace the rod until we discover the answer.

[IKSDoomie]

this is why I keep my fire steel in a separate enclosed case...all 4 of them :P

[BushcraftOnFire]

Hey Bro...

This is typical of ferro rods in certain situations. One of the biggest causes of this isn't chemicals.. believe it or not.. it's moisture! ESPECIALLY if you live in a "saltwater area". The corrosion will eat the rod away until it literally crumbles. To counter this we typically dry the rod well and coat it with nail polish. Check your rods regularly and recoat them if you begin to notice problems. NEVER go to the bush without first making sure all of your gear is in good repair!

[EconoChallenge]

@BushcraftOnFire Our testing result definitely support the idea that salt water will react with the metal of a ferro rod. We do not agree that pure water alone will hurt it. It is definitely the salt in the water. Still we do not think that salt is to blame for the damage we show in this video.

[cannonball666]

watch?v=R4pfZAcPq3o

[EconoChallenge]

@cannonball666 We did and we had that video posted as the answer to this mystery. However, we just removed it as the answer as our testing has proved otherwise. We will be posting our results today ....

[theodre55]

Good job! Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't heard of chemical damage to fire steels before and didn't know to protect my fire steel from chemical damage. Of course I quit using matches years ago but it is still nice to know.

[EconoChallenge]

@theodre55 You are welcome. We are working on a little test to confirm our discovery. Should have some results in a few weeks.

[mbcruzin]

you wouldn't happen to have matches in the same pocket? I have seen this happen to mine in a survival pack. It has something to do with the sulfur in the matches that eats away at the ferro material.

[FireSteels]

These firesteels are made primarily of cerium, which has a strong affinity to oxygen - which is why they spark so easily. They also have a strong affinity to other elements such as sulphur and potassium chlorate, which can be found in match heads.

[EconoChallenge]

@FireSteels I did a quick search of some packaging in a local hiking store. I did not see one warning or even a caution about exposing these rods to sulfur. Perhaps put a warning on your website as a way to protect future owners of a firesteel.

[NoTraceSurvival]

I can't wait to see the results.

[SECRETBOL]

My guess -Was just moisture. If you leave any fero rod in water it can be a mushy blob in no time. If it was also touching any metal this would speed the process.

Fero rods LOVE rust. I sometimes coat mine with clear nailpolish to prevent this.

[EconoChallenge]

@SECRETBOL Given the test results we can rule out the idea that water alone will hurt your ferro rod. Salty water yes but water alone ... nope!

[NoTraceSurvival]

That would be my guess.

[EconoChallenge]

@NoTraceSurvival We are working on a plan to test out salt water, bug repellent and now with this new info we will also have to test sulfur.

[EconoChallenge]

@NoTraceSurvival Now that we have seen the video, we are sure we have the correct answer. I think the only substance we need to test is sulfur.

[EconoChallenge]

@NoTraceSurvival Well I think we can rule out matches based on our recent testing.

[NoTraceSurvival]

@EconoChallenge keep testing

[NoTraceSurvival]

sulfur... which product has sulfur as an ingredient. or was it stored with matches. (sulfur match heads).

[EconoChallenge]

@NoTraceSurvival I purchased a new bear deterrent called a bear banger. I tried it out once and I remember putting the empty casing in the same small pocket. I also tried out one flare cartridge and again stored the empty casing in the small pocket until I returned home from the hike. I bet the flare would have lots of sulfur.

[BrokenAeroVT]

I remember that bear banger video from way back. How recently was the flare cartridge placed in the pocket? Gunpowder has potassium nitrate (a salt) and sulfur (related to acid). When did you first start putting the ferro rod in that pocket? And when did you first notice the corrosion? Both salts and acids can eat up a ferro rod.

[EconoChallenge]

@BrokenAeroVT The bear scare video was shoot in November of 2009. We did some testing two weeks before shooting day. The bear banger and flares were purchased and testing in December of 09. I can not pin down the exact moment I discovered the damage but it certainly would have been in the spring or summer of the following year.

[BrokenAeroVT]

@EconoChallenge So was the ferro rod in the pocket from dec 09 to the summer of 2010 when you noticed it? Or had you been using it intermittently during that time but never questioned the wear until now? Did you just put the rod back into the pocket until now?

[EconoChallenge]

@BrokenAeroVT I don't use the firesteel all the time. So it stayed in that pocket all winter. It sat for at least two or three months. Plenty of time for the damage to take place. Yes I continued to use is after I discovered the damage. I was not going to replace it until we figured out what happened. I was shooting a fire lighting video for winter when I got it out again and it reminded me ... hey ... still have this problem. That was when we decided to ask YouTube.

[BrokenAeroVT]

@EconoChallenge Okay, so one more question. Was the ferro rod noticably more damaged when you go it out again recently compared to the time you noticed it a few months after dec 09? And nothing else acidic or salty was in the pack or in the pocket with the rod during those times?

[EconoChallenge]

@BrokenAeroVT The damage has not progressed since I first noticed it. Nothing else acidic or salty (except for sweat) was in the pack or pocket with the rod during those times. Again except for the spent flare cartridge.

[BrokenAeroVT]

@EconoChallenge I would put my money on the corrosive presence of gunpowder then.

[BrokenAeroVT]

@EconoChallenge Let me qualify that more exactly as -spent- gunpowder residue.

[bushcraftmyway]

i seriously doubt that corosion is to blame here... i think something went wrong during the sintering process (probably some impurities into the mixture prevented the powders to completely fuse together, thus creating weaker spots that just desintegrated when exposed to mechanical shocks, temperature variation etc.).

[enjoythewildUSA]

I'm going to put my vote in for saltwater from sweat.....or some saline-rich source.

[grich9860]

i have no idea but i cant wait to find out.

[BrokenAeroVT]

Oh, I noticed you pulled it out of a pocket in your waist bag so the leather cord didn't have direct contact with the rod. So strike that. I noticed that when hiking the AT, it was not uncommon for my waist pack to become damp either from rain, damp conditions or salty sweat. It is important to isolate a ferro rod from damp, wet conditions and salt.

Also, salt from sweat in your hand can contaminate the rod's cord which can in turn assist to corrode the rod.

[EconoChallenge]

@BrokenAeroVT Salty sweat could definitely play a role in this mystery.  I have often removed the waist pack and the backside is soaked with sweat. The pocket is located on the front side. I have never avoided handling the rod with sweaty hands. If salt water can damage these rods, I would expect more of us would have notice by now. No?

[BrokenAeroVT]

@EconoChallenge From what I read online, corrosion due to dampness, salt and/or acidic material is a problem that is common to ferro rods. Painting them with nail polish is recommended for storage, and most of the surface is protected during use. I thought maybe you sweat into the black ferro rod cord when you are striking it, and in your pack pocket, it may touch the rod and start corrosion that way.

[BrokenAeroVT]

I noticed that you have a leather cord in your kit. I understand there is a corrosive substance in tanned leather known to affect ferro rods when they are concealed in leather holders.

[BrokenAeroVT]

@BrokenAeroVT A PyroFlint™, or any ferrocerium rod for that matter, should never stored either wet or damp in a wet or damp container, especially a wet or damp leather container, since the tannins in the leather will only exacerbate the problem of corrosion. You should never allow your PyroFlint™ to come into contact with seawater, or in fact any water, for very long periods of time unless it unavoidable.

[EconoChallenge]

@BrokenAeroVT I am guessing the magnesium in the metal would react to the saltwater. Blocks of the stuff are bolted to the hull of ships to slow down the erosion of the hull.

[Ggreenvideos]

@BrokenAeroVT I think you may have something there!

[EconoChallenge]

@BrokenAeroVT The lace is synthetic. A spare boot lace ... to remind me to carry a spare for the bow drill.

[shampoovta]

I just did some raeding and I vote for "long-term exposure to moisture" That is why they paint them I guess. It looks like the may react to acids too but not sure. Interesting.

[gcstorm1]

keep your rod protected!!

[Ggreenvideos]

That is interesting for sure! I've seen someone else on YT had this problem but can't remember who :o( But he did know how it happened. I haven't had this problem with any of mine.

[medicjimr]

If not bug spray bad batch of ferro rods would be my guess

[Sancastrochez]

probably be forgotten in the ground and react with the elements.

[BLynchCAN]

Never seen anything like it.

[pappyhighlife]

Ferro rods after each camp should be coated with a protectorate such as nailpolish.

Water or any type od exposure will cause the steel to deteriorate'

The Ferro rod does not like moisture snd will crumble apart when left stored. Ferro mag is not as tough as a mag bar which does not require tlc

[EconoChallenge]

@pappyhighlife We should mention that no crumbly pieces were found at the bottom of the pocket.  We should also mention that the damage has not progressed any further.

[calatorul78]

I think a hamster did it. It was lacking magnezium in it's body :)). Kidding :)

[hongkongzorro]

It may not have been the chemicals. Magnesium is very reactive to salt water. and most firesteels/ferro rods are high in magnesium content. if you had the cord around your sweaty wrist and it wrapped around the fire steel it could pit the rod like that over time.

[EconoChallenge]

@hongkongzorro Now this could be interesting. Thank you.

[EconoChallenge]

@hongkongzorro Turns out you are on the right track with this idea. However we thought the twine we used in the test would have eaten into the rod. But the salt water solution only damaged the surface. Where the twine was actually touching the rod, the damage was the same. No more no less.

[jetpowered1]

Don't know what happened, but the damaged rod is exactly why I bought about 20 heavy rods and steel pieces for about 15 cents U.S. each delivered from China... It did take 6 weeks to arrive, but what a deal! Now my rods are easily replaced.

[EconoChallenge]

@jetpowered1 Now we know that you should keep those rods away from Salt Water!

[angrybuck1]

mice

[ez2curanut]

on second thought... I am thinking deet got onto the rope/paracord that holds the steel and rod together. then the paracord resting/touching the ferrocium rod has eaten thru. :) those cuts on the ferrocium rod look smooth rounded like the paracord, and 1 or some chemicals reacted to corrode the rod :) :)

[EconoChallenge]

@ez2curanut The damage looks rounded because I have continued to use it. I was trying to smooth out some of the less damaged areas to make it easier to use. When it was first discovered it looked more jagged.

[EconoChallenge]

@ez2curanut Now that we have tested it ... I think we can rule out DEET.

[jimrbsn]

This calls for some scientific experimentation.

Either that or just say some god or fairy or gnome ... did it.

Gnomes can be cheeky little bastids!

[EconoChallenge]

@jimrbsn Best idea posted here will be tested before I replace it. That way we can all learn what did this.

[HomeDistiller]

the rod is stuffed now so why not put a small blob of each on different spots on the rod.. then you will know for sure

[EconoChallenge]

@HomeDistiller Good idea. Lets see what comes of this first.

[Woodenarrows]

My thought is that the striker itself has been rubbing against the rod.

[matt4270]

Nice! Now we have to worry about our bug out bags melting away from underneth us!

[EconoChallenge]

@matt4270 Now that we have done some testing we can say be careful where you store your salt.

[antiark1]

i had the same thing happen to mine but honestly im not sure what caused it i did have bug spray in my bag, and that waterless soap, and alcohol for my alcohol stove

[EconoChallenge]

@antiark1 I was hoping that someone else has experienced this issue. No idea eh?

[EconoChallenge]

@antiark1 Did you have any salt in your bag? Our test did support the idea that salt will damage a rod.

[antiark1]

@EconoChallenge i had my gear at the beach actually so salt could have easily gotten to it

[ez2curanut]

deet i believe

[BrokenAeroVT]

@ez2curanut I think that because DEET is designed to apply to the skin that the pH would be pretty neutral. But if it's very old, chemical breakdown could alter that attribute.