AMA President Muddies The Public Option Issue

[MaggieMagnolia1]

It's not the AMA that's muddy - it's the term public plan...it means different things to different people... single payer to some, co-ops to others, FEHBP to others. The AMA doc is saying he is for health reform that works - not just labels that don't mean anything.

[RoyalDemonforChrist]

funny this is the only doctor they let into obama's healthcare infomercial on ABC

[Joe402]

Fuck health insurance companies and their apologists forever~~

[RoyalDemonforChrist]

will you admit you are wrong when your grandmother receives a nice injection of potassium chloride because her operation is not cost effective and euthanasia is the only option to end her pain? you dont even have to be a doctor to give lethal injection.

[Joe402]

are you high

[RoyalDemonforChrist]

yes

[Joe402]

personally I don't smoke but I hope they legalize weed so you can get high without fear 420 jail lobbyists everyday

[RoyalDemonforChrist]

yeah thats a pretty good idea.

[MadDogOfist]

OK, that's a fine view. But a liberal's main concern is that all peoples in his/her country are given equal rights and are treated without discrimination. There are different ways of doing that; not just tax. A liberal draws his root from 'liberty' as in 'freedom for all' rather than the libertarian's liberty as in 'freedom from interference'. The concept of justice is mixed in with a liberal who sees the capitalist system as being unfair to those who start with nothing and can't get a foothold

[MadDogOfist]

Which Rome are you talking about? 51% of who could vote? The Roman Empire almost always had an Emperor and a Senate - but in the end whoever had the army behind them ruled. There were schisms, coups and assasinations but I don't remember reading much about voting.

It makes no sense to see left and right as a continuum of individual freedoms as the German in Nazi Germany with his blond hair had all the individual freedom he could wish for. The Jew had none. Government control didn't come into it

[MadDogOfist]

It's not a question of belief. This is what the words mean. It's terribly difficult to understand political debate if your terms of reference don't match - it's like you're telling me that you call blue what everyone else calls red.

Rome had a Republican movement, but it was always an Empire. Talk of overhauling the institution was therefore treasonous. Governmental control was taken for granted. No LIBERAL (hint!) wants governmental control.

I didn't mention the civil war; only slavery.

[MadDogOfist]

Is it the tradition of America that knights oppress villagers?

No; the constitution was drafted as a reaction to the oppression of the British crown. In it is enshrined certain personal freedoms.

However, it started with the freedom to own slaves. That had to be changed - an act opposed by those to the right of Lincoln, who wanted to maintain what they saw as a personal freedom.

However, as I explain above to intractablemonkey, personal freedom is neither a left nor right issue.

[OlivierdeAthos]

You can either google "origin of left wing and right wing," or you can continue to sound like a jackass for the sake of not wanting to admit you don't actually know what you're talking about. It's totally up to you...

[OlivierdeAthos]

I didn't say the study of government started in France. I explained to you the origin of using the terms left and right, and those terms do not come from ancient Greece or Rome.

[OlivierdeAthos]

"that is exactly what right and left means ..."

Technically, it doesn't. The terms originated from the first, post revolutionary French parliament, where the liberal reformers were seated to the left of the speaker and the conservative, traditionalists (and royalists) were seated to the right. At the time, the idea that the rights of the individual superseded the collective state (via the monarchy) was associated with the reformers to the left of the speaker, because it was not conservative.

[hozehd]

I think its an awesome Idea. Why should government workers get a better health care plan than would be given by this public option.

[MadDogOfist]

I'm not confining it to religion - that's just an example.

Attitudes towards institutions are what define the terms 'left' and 'right':

Change or conserve - those are really what governments chose between.

Progress or tradition; those are the central ideals of left and right.

Concrete choices between actually changing or maintaining society's form.

Individuals affect other individuals; this makes supporting 'the individual' difficult as you wonder - which one?

[IntractableMonkey]

I'm not an expert, but isn't there a spectrum that is up-down and left-right? Doesn't the concern with individual liberty fall on both the right and the left in some cases?

[MadDogOfist]

That is correct. Individual liberty can be limited or assisted by an institution - so conservatives can be for or against individual freedoms: take guns and pot. The right to own a gun is a conservative value because it's institutionalised, while the legalisation of marajuana is much less popular, again because the institution is opposed to it. Conversely, left-wingers (progressives; liberals) generally hold the opposing view on both issues.

[MadDogOfist]

Now I've watched your little video I can tell you that its maker knows nothing of the political spectrum or its origins. Back in the 1790s the French revolution had an assembly hall. In it the members of the ruling council were divided into left wing and right wing based on their attitudes towards existing institutions. those who supported the church and so forth sat on the right; those who wanted to overhaul the country sat on the left.

It has little to do with individualism.

read a book.

[MadDogOfist]

Individualism - yes, the right says they support it - but they also support traditional values and institutions. these include church and state dogma (marriage, law, etc.): the anarchist cannot be a right winger simply because he wants to do away with all traditional institutions. He is an arch individualist and so sits uncomfortabley with the left too.

As for your video: I'm open to all kinds of things, but propaganda won't teach me a thing. I'll stick to my religious/political history books

[spartan2600]

You were mostly correct, until you said that "[the anarchist] is an arch individualist." This is wrong, most anarchists are libertarian socialists, anarcho-syndicalists, or council communists, none these ideas are "individualist" as the terms is implied to mean (i.e. the individual mustn't rely on others, people ought to work alone, etc.).

The anarchist, above all else, is concerned with destroying hierarchy. everything else follows from that. btw, I'm an anarchist myself.

[MadDogOfist]

Traditionally, the Left includes: social liberals, social democrats, socialists, communists and anarchists while the Right includes: conservatives, reactionaries, monarchists, religious fundamentalists and nationalists.

those on the Left typically emphasize their support of working people and accuse the Right of supporting the interests of the upper class, whereas those on the Right usually emphasize their support of individualism and accuse the Left of supporting collectivism. 

OK?

[IntractableMonkey]

One question. The right supports individualism in America?

[spartan2600]

Yes. According to the right in the US, you must only rely on yourself. If you lose a job or some other tragedy occurs, you must get yourself out of it, at most ask help from a church, but never must the government step in to off help. Also, individuals, and "entrepreneurs" must be able to pursue *their* best interests unfettered by the government/regulations.

I disagree with all of this, but this is just some of the propaganda that they push.

[MadDogOfist]

Government control is not 'leftist' - just look at monarchy - total government control from a central dictator. Ideally, socialism has no government and operates as a commune, while in a fascist dictatorship like Nazi Germany, an individual (Hitler) has ultimate power - like a monarch or an emperor.

the racism amongst the Germans was a tool Hitler used to ferment anger and grab power.

the master race was to enslave all others, not because they weren't nazis - but because they weren't Arian.

[MadDogOfist]

If you swallow what Harold Hill says over the intellects of all intervening time and contemporary opinion as to what nazis were. Nazis were fascists; 'national socialism' implies racial superiority (the 'socialism' is very much subordinate to the 'national). Socialism = egalitarianism (i.e. all are equal) an anethma to nationalism.

All that stuff about 'the master race' is not very egalitarian. It's very right wing - because the individual nation is seen as being better than any other.

[spartan2600]

government control in and of itself has never had anything to do with right and left in general. that is an invention of modern day Republicans in the US. neo-liberals claim that reductions in government intervention is the right thing, but they are very hypocritical.

National socialists are diametrically opposed to communism, if you don't realize that, u know nothing about either the left (socialism, communism) nor the right (national socialism, fascism).

[MooseOfReason]

Walmart supports an employer mandate for healthcare. They can afford it. Small businesses can't.  It'll force competitors out of business.

But at least people will be insured, right? You know, so long as they work for a giant corporation.

[AtheistOnTheEdge]

His body language and tone of speech indicate to me that there's a lot that he's not being totally honest about in his words.

[MadDogOfist]

I'd say he was trying to oversimplify the debate - federal healthcare is a system designed for very few people - extending that to everyone would be unrealistic, costly and foolhardy. He knows that. He's just trying to make it seem like it's already in Obama's power to grant universal healthcare.

[boots920]

Going to get real interesting when a bottle of asprins cost $1000 US.

[MadDogOfist]

lol. Paranoid right wing nonsense. Zieg hiel, tool.

[boots920]

I disagree the US money supply (M3) has been expanded by 12 Trillion dollars.

[spartan2600]

which is why we desperately need socialized healthcare. in the UK, medication is NEVER allowed to cost the citizen more than ~$10. In Cuba it is free, and in Canada it varies, but is ALWAYS cheaper to buy medication there than in the US. It is very common for people who live close to the border to run into Canada to pick up prescriptions there.

[MadDogOfist]

It's true. I pay about £7 whatever the prescription. American Healthcare is a joke in this country. Literally.

You know: "which country allows its people to die of treatable diseases if they don't have much money? America!"

Admittedly it's not a very funny joke.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

except your cancer survival rates for breast and prostate cancer lag behind the US significantly. (US to EU roughly 90% to 75% using 2008's numbers). I'm a Canuck, we have universal care, but it's not all things to all people. it has its weaknesses.

[spartan2600]

And yet the Canadian and the UK systems are vastly better than the US's, regardless of whatever minor statistic you can dredge up. I think genuinely important statistic is lifespan. According to the UN, Canucks live to 80.7, Brits live to 79.4, and Americans live to only 78.2. So Canadans live a full 2.5 years longer! Apparently there's something else that more than makes up for the smaller cancer survival rates, if that's true.

[IslandHermit]

The US health care system is far superior to pretty much anywhere else in the world when it comes to cutting edge, top-of-the-line treatment. If you have a rare illness, and lots of money, the US is the place to be. But that covers what, maybe 0.1% of the people?

Where the US falls down is in the basic health care that the other 99.9% of us need and can afford. It seems that America's profit-driven doctors are not interested in treating you if they can't operate or order expensive tests.

[spartan2600]

Well said. However, I would put most of the blame for the state of the US healthcare on the health insurance corporations. The list, in rough order down, would go HMO's, drug companies, and somewhere after all that, doctors.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

Canada's system is not vastly better, I live in this system. my family is split between Canada, America and the West Indies. in all honesty the most problems experienced are in Canada. Part of what makes our system seem better is access in big cities like Toronto and Montreal and Vancouver. 3/4 of all of our population live in cities, where though there are still problems, there is the best of what we have to offer .....

[LeGioNoFZioN]

now take into account the east coast where travel is restricted by weather, and reserves which have maybe one or two doctors for a whole community, and we have some severe issues. If we had the "city standard" of care across Canada then our system would be better, but too many Canadians can't get what they need based on Geography and nothing else.

[OlivierdeAthos]

If you're getting those numbers from the Lancet Oncology Journal (Lancet Oncol. 2007 Sep;8(9):752-3.) I wouldn't read too much in to it. They're not numbers for the EU (European Union). They're numbers for Europe, INCLUDING eastern europe, which drags the survival numbers down considerably. The UK also drags the numbers down because it's a two tier system, and the worst healthcare system in the EU.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

its from the blog of a friend of mine in the Canadian Cancer society. didn't double check her source but I trust her, she has no political axe to grind

[boots920]

This is the problem with government run healthcare its not realistic in funding the social program.

Right now the Canadian system the peasants are double taxed and still the funding is following behind. The government keeps borrowing to keep the system afloat. Eventually the system won't exist because the government isn't realistic on the funding. Then look at the people it covers, drug addicts, smokers, obese. Healthcare - forget about it the gov. are insane.

[spartan2600]

are you saying the obese, smoker, and drug addicts don't deserve to live if confronted with a life-threatening situation?

The Canadians actually spend about HALF what americans spend on healthcare, despite the fact that Canada covers *everyone*, but the US leaves out 1/5th of the population.

Do you realize that the US is losing jobs to you Canadians because of your cheaper and superior healthcare system?

[IslandHermit]

It 's a bit more complicated than that. Historically net immigration has been from Canada to the US, primarily because of the better job opportunities down south. At the moment the Canadian economy is quite a bit stronger than the US's so the flow is reversed. Our universal health care certainly helps to attract people, but jobs are a much bigger motivator.

[spartan2600]

those are interesting points. maybe the Canadian job market is doing well in comparison to the US's, but I'm not sure how many people are aware of that compared to how many are aware of superior Canadian healthcare. Also, GM a little while ago explicitly stated that they moved a plant from Michigan to Windsor because they could save $1000 *per car* from the cheaper healthcare costs.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

you are not loosing much jobs, trust me, your buy american provision in the stimulus prevents that

[boots920]

I'm saying you have to be realistic on funding healthcare.

Smokers, Drug addicts and obese people are being realistic with their health. Its like providing free car insurance for drunk drivers.

Also, how much of "western" medicine is absolute bull crap ?

The system should be set up with prevention rather than prescribe a pill to cover up symptom. Side effects are a warning that prescriptions don't work.

[spartan2600]

Prevention is another thing that socialized medicine is better at. In the current system, private companies behave as though everyone dies at 65, when medicare kicks in. Private insurers do not plan beyond 65. However, in a government run system that covers everyone from birth to death, there is a huge incentive for preventative care since it saves money.

Why can't we cover unhealthy people? Every system with universal coverage does, and they spend FAR less on healthcare than we do!

[OlivierdeAthos]

"The government keeps borrowing to keep the system afloat. "

Before the economy collapsed last summer, the Canadian government had brought in TEN CONSECUTIVE YEARS of BUDGET SURPLUSES.

It's amazing. I remember in 2004 I flipped on the Canadian parliamentary channel, and they were debating how much of their surplus to spend on improving healthcare, and how much to spend paying down the national debt.

Then I flipped to C-Span and Congress was debating GAY MARRIAGE. *shakes head*

[boots920]

That sums up not only the Canadian government but how the globe's governed. Government harms society doesn't help it and it looks like (gold price) the entire money system is toast.

None of the fiat paper is holding value, total breakdown of the money system means no civilization.

[RoyalDemonforChrist]

yeah lol. thats the plan total breakdown of the monetary system.

[boots920]

Yeah that's the plan:

1964 (All silver is taken out of US Coins)

1971 (World reserve currency has not gold backing , fiat only)

Not one world leader objected (pure fiat as world reserve)

When the US dollar implodes so does all the rest (because after-all the US dollar is world reserve)

No Money system, No Civilization

Same thing happen when the Roman Empire imploded.

Then mankind had the Dark Ages for the next 1000 years.

[tj5555555]

fed emp health ben pro exists and is able to be implemented like yesterday, but they really don't want to give the public health care, they are only working to find a way to tax people into poverty for total population control. it's flim-flam, smoke & mirrors, and you are stupid if you believe government is working for you, it's you working for the government that is reality. All you do with accepting more legislation is surrender you freedom & authority. Arrest The Fed. tj

[cagedtigersteve]

So is he for it or against it?

[carrierexchange]

he's for whoever pays him more

[Smartassawhip]

Anyone who did not get a chance to watch the president's town hall meeting regarding health care should do so... I know they have it on CNN. It was very informative and addressed many common concerns. I am all for it.

[sachaput]

The AMA tried everything to fight Medicare and the Clinton health plan. Rich doctors doing their best to keep money in their pockets and the Insurance companies.

Bastards!

[TedinLasVegas]

Couple of states passed Clinton health plan; Kentucky, Colorado & Oregon for example. Costs have rocketed while coverage has plummeted; expect more of the same.

Oregon, with their euthinasia laws, now recommends assisted suicide rather than treated some forms of cancer.

[OlivierdeAthos]

This paper explains why the state plans failed, and why vapid attempts to tinker with the existing system won't work, and major overhaul is needed.

pnhp . org/states_flatline/

[spartan2600]

the Clinton plan was written with two purposes. first and foremost, increase profits for corporations in the healthcare industry. secondly, to provide a facade of progress. it was largely written by the healthcare industry itself, so results like that wouldn't be surprising.

[JamJells]

Did she just meow?

[toyracers]

why is everyone so angry on the comments??? he just voiced support over a public option... we have the video.. we can run add, start a campaign using the video... the possibilities are endless

[OlivierdeAthos]

Heheh! I think somebody should start running those ads immediately!

(Unfortunately, though, I think that's the last time we'll ever see HIM as the official AMA spokesman.)

[atripa645]

Come on guys, we need to protect baby boomer insurance profits. How can we dream of taking care of another generation when so many boomers are without yachts? I can hardly sleep thinking about all of the botox and viagra that will be STOLEN out of the hands of the coolest generation by weak poor people if we let a public option pass.

[Richardgwm]

This man is a brazen LIAR.

[JBeatty17]

FUCK AMA

We should at least have a public option, if not single-payer. The political pundits who say that America is still a center-right nation are absoulutely right.

[voyeurdug]

FEHB is a menu of private medical insurance and HMO options... there's no option for: "none of these will take me," or "assigned-risk" for someone with preexisting conditions. All he (the AMA weasel) is saying is: No Public Option.

BTW: Don't believe any hooey you hear about Congressmen, etc., getting free medical. The most senior Congressman, Cabinet member, or appointed official gets the same FEHB options the GS-3 file clerk who started work last Monday gets... and at the same rates.

[1019drummer]

i only wish i could keep giving u the thumbs up.............

[Aiden057]

What the United States needs and deserves is a single payer system, with everyone in and no one left out. That's not so hard to understand, unless one's pay check demands one not understand it.

[Darko888]

I'd usual post something constructive here, but I'm not going to.

Seriously, just fuck AMA.

[dawgnpony]

You've taken the words right out of my fingers!

[gamoonbat]

We already "allow individuals to purchase into" a lot of plans. The problem is working folks cannot afford to purchase a plan on their own and also pay their other bills.

[gobigorange99]

FUCK AMA!!

[WKaliberr]

fuck AMA!

[papalosopher]

What was that old guy saying? I heard his words. He said let everyone onto the same program federal employees have... but that's not what he was saying. He does not actually want to see that... he was being obtuse, but I can't tell how. Hard to read between those line.

[BigPurple121]

Healthcare reform wouldn't even be necessary if the insurance companies hadn't abused the American people for the last 60 years.

A friend of mine, after having his hand stepped on by a horse, was refused treatment for not having health insurance. They gave him 2 Advil & an ice pack.

At this very moment I have three ulcers on the bottom of my feet because my PPO insurance will not cover the medication.

There are legit stories like this but people are dying

[OlivierdeAthos]

The story isn't much better for people who HAVE insurance. Most people THINK their HMO plan is good until they actually have a MAJOR health problem, and then they're screwed. Half of all personal bankruptcies in the U.S. are caused by medical bills, and 3/4 of those people are people that HAD private HMO insurance.

pnhp . org/PDF_files/MedicalBankruptc­y . pdf

[hockey2333]

i want a public option! WHY THE FUCK NOT?

[publicgood]

oh hellz yeah